Database Users

Hero rushed out the door?

So after spending two days with the new official ROM I am dumbstruck that HTC let the Hero out the door as it was initially.
If you guys are like me you read online gadget blog reviews of new phones and you base your purchasing decisions to a lesser or greater extent on the reviews posted on these sites. The Hero received generally favorable reviews across the board BUT they were ALL tarred with the issue of the lagginess and unresponsiveness of the UI. Typical comments were "Sense UI is great but the hardware is not up to the task" etc. Hero was always compared to the iPhone and initially it was a more frustrating experience navigating the UI.
Clearly HTC have the ability to release software without these issues (new ROM proves that!) so why did they? I feel like they *really* hurt the sales and market potential of Hero and Sense UI by releasing an 'unfinished' product.
Can you imagine what Engadget's review (for instance) might have been had they reviewed a Hero with the new ROM?
I bought a Hero despite those reviews because I could see the potential in the handset but I know of others that steered clear because of the massive 'BUT...' at the end of most online reviews.
Its an opportunity missed I fear as the Hero is no longer a 'new' device.
I'm very glad that HTC have made my handset waaaaay nicer to use but seriously HTC... big, BIG ball drop!

Well... the Android phones are not really for the average Joes out there... they are for us techies and gadget lovers that love the freedom of doing cool and neat things with a phone.
We don't want to be tied up in an bondage game conducted/directed by a fruity company... and that is also why we choose a company we know.
Good enough?
You really thought we would feed a troll?

I honestly thought my post was a valid topic in a discussion forum about the HTC Hero.
@Thiesen
Wha?!? I really don't understand what your reply has got to do with my post. I think you've misunderstood the subject of my comments (perhaps if I had written in binary it might have been clearer?)
A broader acceptance of any platform is enabling and will benefit all users from 'techies' to 'average Joes'. Its not a matter of IF Android will become more mainstream but WHEN. I'm sorry if this makes you feel less special.
Troll indeed...

We're early adopters. We like to find bugs. We like to find glitches. And we take great pride in reporting them back to the devs and makers.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.

Thiesen said:
We're early adopters. We like to find bugs. We like to find glitches. And we take great pride in reporting them back to the devs and makers.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.
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I'm sorry mate but i think thats total rubbish, you wouldn't buy a car knowing it didn't work and happily waste your own time feeding back problems to the manufacture to bring it up to speed. You wouldn't go out and buy a brand new state of the art car and happily put a new engine in it would you knowing the one you had paid for was crap?
AND might I ad, the research and R+D that is put in to these items is all reflected in the price of them. If HTC were giving these phones away for beta testing or what not then fine, but for a £400 handset, i totally agree with the comments made by ShiroEd.
I have had no end of nokia handsets where i have thought nokia have been guilty of the same issue, releasing what could be classed as unfinished products.

Personally, I always though the tech sites overplayed the whole lag issue on the original ROM. Yes it was there, but in my experience the net effect was quite limited and in my case it didn't really limit my ability to use the device. I'm not saying that the issue didn't (or doesn't! ) exist, just that in my opinion it was acceptable for a device of this nature (please no flames from those who disagree).
This may be because I didn't load my home screens with tons of apps, and one of the first things I did do with my Hero was to remove the People and Weather widgets, and set up Peep appropriately.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.
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That would presume that the iPhone isn't possessed of the same issues that the Hero is/was. Google "iphone lag" and you'll see loads of posts complaining about lag on the iPhone, even for the latest OS and the 3GS.
In addition, you will probably find that the *vast* majority of people who've purchased the Hero have never even heard of XDA-Developers, and probably will never install another ROM. We are in the minority, not the "average joe" when it comes to Hero ownership!
Whilst I disagree with the OP, I don't think he was trolling.
Regards,
Dave

Thiesen said:
We're early adopters. We like to find bugs. We like to find glitches. And we take great pride in reporting them back to the devs and makers.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.
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Agreed with crash. Thats just rubbish.
Entirely valid topic, and entirely valid point. Nothing remotely troll like about it.
Regardless of the people on this site, the Hero is definitely aimed at the average consumer, as a direct competitor in the iPhone market. Hence the multimedia, Facebook, etc.
Rushed to market I agree, but no idea why... Could just be lack of QA.
Many of the bugs reported here and elsewhere have been met with surprise by HTC, as if they really didnt know they existed. Do they not have a QA department that actually uses the phones in real life? Takes them home, plays with them, uses them all day and night to report the bugs?
Still, the update is great, the phone is flying now. If they could just sort out the crappy contact photo issue, the album caching, and the horrendous lack of bluetooth file transfer, I'd be a happy chap..

I think they shipped out the preview models and early review versions to people in the hope that they'd ignore any slowdown. Most of the review sites seem to have mentioned this in some form, saying that it can be a bit laggy but the final release could be good and the software shows potential - obviously it was never fixed for the first release.
To be fair, we're all early testers for the new HTC interface. If the Hero sells well and works well for everyone then we'll obviously be getting the same thing in future phones.
I don't think HTC is expecting any particular phone to be the next killer phone, they're just working on improvements with each new model.

While it does not make it ok... it seems to be the norm these days to get the product out and iron out bugs in a later release. As long as the quality is respectable, which I feel it was in this case, I can live with it. Particularly since the alternative would be to make do with buying an older model or waiting longer for the handset.
Zuber

Just give us an example of one single gadget that was not rushed out of the door!
The iPhone? Hellooo, the original iPhone didn't even have 3G. Have you ever tried GPRS speed (Go to wireless settings and pick "2G only"), not even funny. Talk about being rushed out of the door!

and apple offered a free upgrade to the 3g version when it was released! So yes may have been rushed out the door but no financial gain in the long run.

Was this a free upgrade that did not involve commuting to a contract ?
If not, then its not free...
Zuber

the handsets weren't free in the first place... you want to split hairs then fine.

The uninformed might think Apple were so caring and generous that they were willing to swap out the phones for "no financial gain"...
You can say many things about Apple, but generous isn't one of them
Zuber

Zuber said:
The uninformed might think Apple were so caring and generous that they were willing to swap out the phones for "no financial gain"...
You can say many things about Apple, but generous isn't one of them
Zuber
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Agreed However i thought it wasn't a bad deal as i have always thought the handsets were a rip off...coming to think of it the tariffs are aswell. I work for network rail and get 30% off all o2 shop tariffs and i still opted for the hero on orange which was a miles better deal!
(sorry for the partial hi-jack! )

crash_194 said:
and apple offered a free upgrade to the 3g version when it was released!
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Free upgrade! Just sign on for another 12 months of the 60+EUR/month (AT&T US) plan

Ok, I was one of the early adoptors of Hero. I got it right after its launch and I didnt really had too many complains about the device.
I never ever bought any HTC phone hoping it to be perfect. I always bought HTC knowing it will not be a perfect device out of box but community efforts will make it much much better device over time.
This applies to WinMo devices, and android. Why do we have xda here???

If you ask me, it's actually a great device. I've had far worse :/
I think people kinda underestimate how difficult it is to make good software. And how difficult it is to properly test stuff like this as well.
Next to that, it's always a comprimise. They want the software to be good, but also get the device out as fast as possible. The faster a (good) device is out there, the better that is for HTC in this case. It's a very competitive market, there just isn't enough time to keep working on the software until it's perfect.
The software should be 'good enough' and not perfect. I'm 100% sure they have a bugtracker or something else to keep track of major and minor bugs. At some point someone has to make a decision what will and won't be fixed before launch. And what shall be fixed right after launch.
For a new OS with a new UI like on the Hero I think they did very very well on the first release.
Now I fully agree with the OP, the lag/speed issue with the first ROM was not in HTC's favour. It was something that came up in every review, and people still believe that's a big Hero issue even while it's fixed. On the other hand, there might have been more important things that were fixed during development.
Usually speed improvements and tweaking stuff like that is something you do last. Other bugs and stuff has to be fixed first.

I don't think HTC rushed the phone out the door. The software was good enough so the phone functioned as a phone. It's a smartphone designed with the capability to upgrade the software. As long as the hardware is good quality, then you can work with the software and polish it as you go along.
I never really noticed the lag - it's only put to shame when you compare it with the new software. Look at the problems people are having with the iPhone 3.1 software release and you should be thankful that HTC have actually first delivered useable phone software and then improved it only a month after release. And HTC got some nice innovations to boot with the first release. They were perhaps a bit ambitious with the first release - where the phone did a lot of things when it first came out of sleep or switched screens, including the clock "flipping" animation.

RaptorRVL said:
If you ask me, it's actually a great device. I've had far worse :/
I think people kinda underestimate how difficult it is to make good software. And how difficult it is to properly test stuff like this as well.
Next to that, it's always a comprimise. They want the software to be good, but also get the device out as fast as possible. The faster a (good) device is out there, the better that is for HTC in this case. It's a very competitive market, there just isn't enough time to keep working on the software until it's perfect.
The software should be 'good enough' and not perfect. I'm 100% sure they have a bugtracker or something else to keep track of major and minor bugs. At some point someone has to make a decision what will and won't be fixed before launch. And what shall be fixed right after launch.
For a new OS with a new UI like on the Hero I think they did very very well on the first release.
Now I fully agree with the OP, the lag/speed issue with the first ROM was not in HTC's favour. It was something that came up in every review, and people still believe that's a big Hero issue even while it's fixed. On the other hand, there might have been more important things that were fixed during development.
Usually speed improvements and tweaking stuff like that is something you do last. Other bugs and stuff has to be fixed first.
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Some of these bugs are quite known more or less right out of the box, for instance logging into the market, you couldn't do this unless you actually entered your google credentials when you first setup the phone.
People are going to compare the Hero with the likes of the iPhone, it's the only comparable handset out on the market at the moment. But what i'm afraid of is the lack of future support for the Hero, as yet another handset is on the horizon from HTC. OK, maybe Apple have got it right in respect of only having to supporting one handset (and very simalar firmwares, agreed) which means more time focusing on bug fixes and upgrades.
I hope HTC do not put the Hero to the back of the pile and focus on new handsets

Nexus One. We're being phased out, and quickly.

NOW! I know it is possibly too early to jump to conclusions, but I have recently been reading through some posts about how our Nexus One's are slowly, sadly and surely becoming obsolete. I agree with this theory in the fact that we aren't getting any love/support anymore. Granted, i know that Froyo is on the way, but i feel as though our hardware could have been better from the get-go, and that now (starting to become the long run since launch) it will be the death of this phone on a large basis. I feel as though Google has left us behind with some major issues, and has crippled the Nexus One name, purely because they seem like they don't want to deal with it anymore. Support is limited at that, and updates are scarce (one update to be exact, and even that OTA had problems), even for non-root users. Development, even though sometimes a tedious task, is moving slowly. We have a small selections of stable roms and thats about it. Nothing super fantastic (granted CyanogenMod and Modaco's ROMS are great, but not legendary), nothing special. I feel like there was more support for the (i hate to bring it in) iPhone in terms of the community and the modding experience.
Simply, I absolutely LOVE my Nexus One, but i feel like it is not getting the support it deserves, and i DO NOT want this beautiful piece of technology to be obsolete by september. i hope you guys are with me on this, because i think we all know that this phone could easily be something BETTER than what it is now. and it SHOULD be able to compete with any phone within a year from now because it's Google's baby. GOOGLE: GIVE US MORE for our phones and for our money. Because, even though i feel like this is the best phone i've ever had, 1) i feel like it'll be obsolete in a few months and 2) im starting to feel like i wasted my money.
long live nexus

+1 .......

The Nexus one will be the standard by which all android phones are measured for at-least another year.
Keeping everything pure AOSP is a huge plus IMO.
Official updates are slow, but code is being committed to the repository regularly and makes it on to the custom ROMS very quickly.
There is no phone out there with better features and community support than the one you have
There is no other phone on google.com/phone... so we are still the only child.

Google is trying to catch up the rest of the android world to 2.1
VZ cut them off it seems from the N1 and instead VZ gets another great Android handset.
Froyo has some much needed upgrades and will help (in theory) android solidify itself by stabilizing the platform for devs.
JIT/Flash/Market /Open GL / market upgrades are on there way if you believe the rumors.
What is it you feel is being phased out ?
Only about 500k users have an N1. Thats a miniscule amount.
Even with that we have two great devs putting out some very stable ROMS. Unlike the past N1 came with so many damn features out of box that we didnt need ROMs and Apps to add the 101 missing features.
Listen I am still up in Googles rectum about alot of features that need to be fixed/enhanced on Android. We all knew N1 was the first of the snapdragons. The others are storming in blasting taking attention away from us...but theyre all on the same team....they all bleed green =-)
Sure Id love to be slapping on Sense widgets , Moto Blur social network apps , etc...but thats up to us as a community to do it (if ever technically possible).
Anyways feel good about your purchase. You still have the best available phone on the market and will until the EVO/Iphone4G drop. And even then..youd still be top 3 at worst.

There isn't much development because there isn't much to do. The Nexus has the latest firmware and top specs. Of announced phones only the Evo and Galaxy S have significantly better specs everything else is just a SLIGHTLY upgraded Nexus. No porting apps or firmwares are needed. The only thing to really do is optimize what we have (cyanogen is doing that) and port sense UI (Paul is doing that). I'm happy with my Nexus .....for now hehe

zach I can understand the complaints about some of the nagging issues the phone has had (3G, purple tint etc.) but two things we have to realize: A majority of the users don't experience these problems, and in no way is our phone going to be obsolete anytime soon.
Here is a post I made regarding the Incredible screen, I think it's relevant here:
jasrups said:
Here's my take:
Would I like to have this screen in my Nexus? Yea it would have been a nice feature. Do I need this screen? No, not in the slightest.. Not yet anyways. The only apps that would require a screen like that are games, and I don't play the type of games on my phone that would require axis-crossing multitouch. I know some people do, and I can respect that but I don't, hence why I don't care about this right now.
Frankly, if you're playing those kinds of games anyways, just get an iPhone (and I'm not saying that in a bad way). iPhone is unmatched when it comes to gameplay and plus you can get them all for free if you jailbreak. Yea The Incredible has a capable screen, but do you know long it's going to take Android to catch up to Apple when it comes to game quality?? Android just got games like Racing Thunder 2 and Homerun Battle 3D while you can play Street Fighter 4 and freaking Grand Theft Auto on the iPhone! It's no competition.. if you want to game, you don't have the right phone.
By the time Android actually starts developing games and apps that can take advantage of the axis crossing MT, The Incredible will be "obsolete" (as some of you like to put it) so no need for everyone to get their panties in a bunch
With most things I normally have a realist perspective and am usually the first to 'hate' on something when its deserved, but alot of you guys are just a bunch of downers. The Incredible is a great phone as is the Nexus, everyone should just appreciate what they have! If you keep chasing the newest technology (no matter how impractical it is) you will never be satisfied!
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There will always be new technology coming out faster than we can keep up with, the important thing is to not prematurely write one product off as soon as a newer one becomes available. People will be saying the same thing about the Incredible/4G Evo etc in a few months from now. That's just the ways things are. If you have that mentality you will want a new phone every few months regardless of how good it is.
Regarding the selection of ROMS.. Guys, right now we have the top of the line OS on our phones.. 2.1 is the standard, most of the G1/Magic ROMS are trying to replicate what we already have stock. Believe me, once Froyo and Android 3.0 come out the devs will be right on it and we'll get awesome ports. We have great developers who will make sure our phones have the newest software on our devices.
And if worst comes to worst and some of you decide to sell your Nexus this summer, it will have excellent resale value.

Don't worry, This is the phone Google are actively giving to developers. We'll be here for a while to come yet.

Well
I most definetely do not believe the nexus one will be phased out anytime soon, actually i will be ordering one tonight as a matter of fact. yes we may not have the best touch screens or the greatest rom develipment, but that is because we are still number one There are no other builds to even create until phones of this caliber runnng other os are on the scene. And for the touch screen issue, whe the time comes to where we truely need multitouch for games on the market out nexus's WILL be outdated, or there WILL be a fix for this, i mean geez Cyanogen has nearly finished a fully working Eclair for the g1 already, all i see is hope and excitment for the future of this device, the market also needs some serious time to catch up to apples games (please dont get upset with this, its true) The only thing i can see actually outdating our phones are dual processors capable of OVER 1.5 otherwise i dont believe they will be extinct, not even the 1.3 samsung will hurt the nexus i think considering we can be oc'ed to 1.3 anyways i do believe, or at least close

I don't think that we're being phased out, not until another year. Each phone that comes in the market gets compared to Nexus One.
As far as the development is concerned, its very satisfactory. Comparing the development scene between N1 an iPhone, iPhone sold nearly 50x the units of N1 sold. So most app developers have their focus on iPhone as it stands them a better chance of making more money..... But still development on N1 is much better.....

jasrups said:
:
There will always be new technology coming out faster than we can keep up with, the important thing is to not prematurely write one product off as soon as a newer one becomes available. People will be saying the same thing about the Incredible/4G Evo etc in a few months from now. That's just the ways things are. If you have that mentality you will want a new phone every few months regardless of how good it is.
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+1
I’m beginning to think some people have never bought a phone before, or a computer for that matter.
Did people expect the N1 to the absolute top spec phone forever? Seriously its still amazing compared to most, and measures up nicely in all significant ways to these new phones it keeps getting compared to. Stop trying to bury it before its even close to dead.
There is always something newer coming. No exceptions. There are phones in development now that will top the Evo and Incredible. At some point you have to buy something or you’ll wait forever.
The N1 is Google’s flag ship phone. I bought it for that reason. If Google is developing something cool (like FroYo!) its pretty much guaranteed to come to us first. Its not being phased out. I think there are exciting things to come…

You have got to be kidding. Seriously?
zachthemaster said:
NOW! I know it is possibly too early to jump to conclusions, but I have recently been reading through some posts about how our Nexus One's are slowly, sadly and surely becoming obsolete. I agree with this theory
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How does the best Android phone currently on the market obsolete? You must be working from a totally different definition of "obsolete".
zachthemaster said:
in the fact that we aren't getting any love/support anymore.
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THAT must be why Google is giving Nexus Ones out to so many developers! Because they don't love it anymore and want to get rid of it!
zachthemaster said:
Granted, i know that Froyo is on the way, but i feel as though our hardware could have been better from the get-go, and that now (starting to become the long run since launch) it will be the death of this phone on a large basis.
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As if Froyo isn't a major undertaking.
In what way could the hardware have been better, without delaying the release of the phone?
zachthemaster said:
I feel as though Google has left us behind with some major issues, and has crippled the Nexus One name, purely because they seem like they don't want to deal with it anymore. Support is limited at that
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Are we talking about the same phone? In what way is it crippled?
Google has upped its support, hired more support personnel, and continues to present the N1 as its flagship phone. How does that equate to "they don't want to deal with it anymore"?
zachthemaster said:
and updates are scarce (one update to be exact, and even that OTA had problems), even for non-root users.
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How long has the N1 been out? Just how often did you expect an update? I think your expectations might be wildly unrealistic.
And "even for non-root users"!?! WTF does that mean? If anything, non-root users have far fewer updates -- rooted users are getting the updates from CM as soon as Google commits them to the source repository, whereas "even" implies that you expect non-root users to receive more updates, which is completely backwards.
zachthemaster said:
Development, even though sometimes a tedious task, is moving slowly. We have a small selections of stable roms and thats about it. Nothing super fantastic (granted CyanogenMod and Modaco's ROMS are great, but not legendary), nothing special.
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If you don't think CM is "super fantasic" then I invite you to go back to the stock N1 rom. Installing CM for the first time is like getting a whole new phone.
zachthemaster said:
I feel like there was more support for the (i hate to bring it in) iPhone in terms of the community and the modding experience.
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Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaahmbulance.

I don't buy it. I don't like the multitouch sensor they used for the phone, and I think the scrolling could be smoother, but what do you really expect from Google? Short of them sending out free hardware upgrades, what are you really looking for to not feel phased out?
The Nexus One is a great phone, at least for me. Even with the multitouch issues, I'm able to pull off running jumps when I play Super Mario World and the like. And that issue is allegedly being worked on with 2.2. If they flat out said the Nexus One wasn't getting 2.2 then you could make the claim of the Nexus One being phased out.
As far as network issues go, I have zero problems with my AT&T Nexus One and 3G. I live in the DC Metro area, for what it's worth. Most problems I've heard from people are all on T-Mobile. Who's to say the problem isn't on T-Mobile's side instead of Google's? Everyone blames AT&T's network for the iPhone's network issues, but it's pretty clear that the radio in the iPhone is garbage.
We live in a time where there are 1ghz processors in handheld devices. Technology is advancing so fast. It's always going to hurt when your $500+ dollar device isn't the best around anymore, but do you really want forward progress to slow down so you feel like you have the best phone longer?
I think you're being overly paranoid, if you ask me. So long as you love the phone, what do you care?

danguyf said:
You have got to be kidding. Seriously?
How does the best Android phone currently on the market obsolete? You must be working from a totally different definition of "obsolete".
THAT must be why Google is giving Nexus Ones out to so many developers! Because they don't love it anymore and want to get rid of it!
As if Froyo isn't a major undertaking.
In what way could the hardware have been better, without delaying the release of the phone?
Are we talking about the same phone? In what way is it crippled?
Google has upped its support, hired more support personnel, and continues to present the N1 as its flagship phone. How does that equate to "they don't want to deal with it anymore"?
How long has the N1 been out? Just how often did you expect an update? I think your expectations might be wildly unrealistic.
And "even for non-root users"!?! WTF does that mean? If anything, non-root users have far fewer updates -- rooted users are getting the updates from CM as soon as Google commits them to the source repository, whereas "even" implies that you expect non-root users to receive more updates, which is completely backwards.
If you don't think CM is "super fantasic" then I invite you to go back to the stock N1 rom. Installing CM for the first time is like getting a whole new phone.
Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaahmbulance.
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I didn't wanna quote the whole thing (sorry everyone) but this is the post of the year IMO!!!! Every counter argument you made is perfect.....This thread is BOGUS!!!!!!

You can't compare the modding/dev community of the N1 to the iPhone anyways.
The iphone has FAR more units out there, and the Apple cult is still buying. The iPhone also has more that is needed as far as mods to make it a nice OS.
The iPhone also runs native binaries, so there seem to be a lot more standard systems written for it, or so I was told in my Q&A thread. The iPhone has full apt packaging system, full set of GNU tools, full OpenSSH suite, etc.
The iPhone also has a lot more core teams of dedicated modders, while Android seems to have 1-2, at least for the N1. This is, again, I think due to the fact that the iPhone needs more mods to make it a good OS.

Without boobs, this thread is a waste of time.

Not even boobs can rescue the OP's post.

martin0285 said:
I didn't wanna quote the whole thing (sorry everyone) but this is the post of the year IMO!!!! Every counter argument you made is perfect.....This thread is BOGUS!!!!!!
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attn1 said:
Without boobs, this thread is a waste of time.
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I agree wholeheartedly with both of you.

zachthemaster said:
NOW! I know it is possibly too early to jump to conclusions, but I have recently been reading through some posts about how our Nexus One's are slowly, sadly and surely becoming obsolete.
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Can you link these posts?
How is the N1 becoming obsolete? What are your reasons? I have yet to see any indication of this.
updates are scarce (one update to be exact, and even that OTA had problems), even for non-root users.
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What kind of crap is this? Yes, the N1 has received 1 update. Which is 1 more than MANY other Android phones in YEARS.
Development, even though sometimes a tedious task, is moving slowly.
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Here's the Android source code:
http://android.git.kernel.org/
Get to work!
GOOGLE: GIVE US MORE for our phones and for our money
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Give more WHAT?

Enjoy the wave for as long as it lasts... which will be a long time
Tech wise phones go obsolete much faster than a PC ever would for the simple fact that you are in a closed environment. You can't upgrade the RAM, graphics or CPU on one of these things so shelf life is in terms of months not years. But that's not to say that support will go away for the N1 any time soon. OP is just acknowledging/exhibiting the mid-life crisis that the N1 is in currently. It's still the flagship product and a benchmark for every phone slated to be released this year. Next year may be different--hell I'm sure it will be--but for now, we're good and there's enough power that it'll still be viable 2 years from now. If you need a current tangible example, just look at how many G1's there are out there and how long that phone has been out.
I came from the dismally dysfunctional land of the Epix from Samsung where between them and AT&T, they couldn't figure out who was suppose to be doing the obligatory reach-around. With the N1 there are no more worries about the carrier holding up the updates for a fix to a major problem introduced by another fix almost a year prior for an infantile notification issue., there are no more issues with contractual obilgations to corporate partnerships (Yahoo) with draconian imposed restrictions to enforce it(backflip) and mostly there's no more waiting for the mfg to finally update their license to a newer version OS if they even bother going that route to begin with. Open architecture, open software and an infinite amount of potential for old and new phones is why I'm here and I'm sure a bunch of others are too.
So to anyone else reading this and especially to Sprint customers that are waiting for the N1, catch the wave however you want(N1, Evo, etc) but enjoy it for what it is--a long great ride and loads of fun--cowabunga!

Did somebody say boobs? Er, was I supposed to get something else out of this?

The Evo Sprint SHOULD be selling.

I've been trolling around XDA for a few months because I've been improving my Evo and I have. When I first bought my phone, the battery lasted about six hours max, worse if I was on the web a lot. Now, the battery now lasts 24 hours and about 16 with consistent usage because I have Set CPU managing things in a custom kernel. It's also running a custom ROM (warm twoPointtwo) and the entire phone generally performs far better than when I first bought it.
My question is, why couldn't HTC/Sprint sell something like this? They wouldn't have had nearly as many complaints about the battery if they'd done a better job managing battery usage. I'm a weekend warrior and I figured out how to improve my phone dramatically in a few months of trolling around XDA's threads. So, why couldn't HTC $hit-hot engineers make the best phone possible taking full advantage of the hardware?
Why all the limits?

Because they're more concerned about the hardware than the software. They knew that the devs would tear it up once it was released, so they [email protected] tried. As long as they got out *something* that worked, they knew, given this is a Linux-based o/s, it would only be a matter of time before people would do their work for them.
Unfortunately, it makes sense.

whats77inaname said:
Because they're more concerned about the hardware than the software. They knew that the devs would tear it up once it was released, so they [email protected] tried. As long as they got out *something* that worked, they knew, given this is a Linux-based o/s, it would only be a matter of time before people would do their work for them.
Unfortunately, it makes sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know about all that. You have to keep in mind that this phone wasn't made for devs. It was made to attract a mass audience. Devs make up a fraction of the intended user base, and the majority of people who would buy it have never even heard of rooting or custom roms. They have never heard of a kernel before. These are the people they want to please, and these people rely on HTC to get it right, or they will return the phone.
Manufacturers don't make their phones for people on xda.

whats77inaname said:
Because they're more concerned about the hardware than the software. They knew that the devs would tear it up once it was released, so they [email protected] tried. As long as they got out *something* that worked, they knew, given this is a Linux-based o/s, it would only be a matter of time before people would do their work for them.
Unfortunately, it makes sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but that just isn't true... sounds more like a biased opinion.
Fact is, there are a LOT more people who don't even know what a rooted phones means... there are even more people who don't have/use/want a rooted phone.
I won't act like I know all the reasons why a rooted phone with a custom rom/kernel works SO much better... but I do know they weren't banking on the masses hacking into the phones they make.

In one word time. It takes time to refine software and usually they are struggling to just get it working at all.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

Honestly, the EVO performs pretty well on a stock build. Rooting gives you options yes, but it's not absolutely neccessary like it used to be on WinMo devices.
And yes, I know you didn't root WinMo, but you know what I mean. WinMo had to be unlocked and had a custom ROM flashed, or it was nearly unusuable.

First off, I'm not a developer, I'm a web designer and would've had an iPhone if I were not locked into a Sprint family plan. I totally agree that an unrooted evo is an amazing device, but if I got better battery life, why couldn't HTC with a more improved HTC kernel? Did it just not occur to them? That and defaulting the phone to worst battery settings possible, really? I'm one of those consumers that a few months ago thought a kernel was a rank or food and rooting is something done to plants, let alone something you could adjust.
evo on tapatalk

I just had to spend a few days unrooted due to a hardware problem. Stock 2.2 is MUCH better than stock 2.1 was when the evo first came out. What I would like to see is HTC and the other hardware manufactures hire some of the devs or pay out to incorporate some of their fix's.
I really loved when one of them(dev's I can't remember which one) beat HTC to releasing 2.2 with sense!

whats77inaname said:
Because they're more concerned about the hardware than the software. They knew that the devs would tear it up once it was released, so they [email protected] tried. As long as they got out *something* that worked, they knew, given this is a Linux-based o/s, it would only be a matter of time before people would do their work for them.
Unfortunately, it makes sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[highlight]Mod Edit: No need to be rude to others[/highlight]
Because the concern is to have a solid working device and when the evo launched it was and still is solid most people do not "root" their phone.

As good as custom ROMs are, more often than not they have bugs. With official ROMs a lot of time is spent on testing and are made to have the most reliable experience as possible. They prefer that over a 15% battery/performance improvement or the delay it'd probably add.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

All android phones' battery life suck. The hardware is out-tech'ing the battery.

The reason is simple. It's the same thing that goes on at my job. They have non-technical jackasses throwing out hard deadlines for projects they have no clue about how long should take or what's involved in accomplishing. So then the programmers throw together sloppy code to get things working as fast as possible to meet their deadlines so they can keep their jobs. Once things work, they have until the deadline to optimize as much as possible and what they don't get to ends up being "phase 2", or the first update. Of course if the deadline is way too short, the first update ends up being bug fixes instead of much needed optimizations. And then instead of working on those optimizations they have to start writing more sloppy code to meet the next short deadline for the next big project. This is the story of my life.

the evo is sprint's best decision ever made in the history of sprint.
i think they took a gamble and won.
i wouldve never thought such a phone would exist on sprint, and i hope it woke their sleepy eyes into investing more time and money in greater hardware for the future, because WE WILL BUY IT.

TorxT3D said:
the evo is sprint's best decision ever made in the history of sprint.
i think they took a gamble and won.
i wouldve never thought such a phone would exist on sprint, and i hope it woke their sleepy eyes into investing more time and money in greater hardware for the future, because WE WILL BUY IT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed 100%
They made a good move with the Hero then knocked it out of the park with the EVO.
Obviously there are several teams at work. I'd like to hope HTC will slim down Sense and make better use of the juice And it would be great if Sprint would make all their crap-ware optional or at least uninstallable.
I have an upgrade right now so I hate to admit I'm already eagerly anticipating Sprint's next flagship, I just hope it comes from HTC.

Bottom line to this is that the sprint Kernel does what the masses need not just a few devs on xda or ppcgeeks.
to satisfy people who actually know what this is all about their sales would plummet, and the iphone toy would prevail. its about competition and market share.....period. no one would get a bigger portion of the market share trying to satisfy a miniscule portion of it.
I personally appreciate the miniscule portion of the market because the people in here kick butt and create some awesome things for those of us who dont understand developing.
Thanks XDA!!

jdh10475 said:
edited...
Because the concern is to have a solid working device and when the evo launched it was and still is solid most people do not "root" their phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess I should have explained more clearly. Yes, they released something that works, but they also knew that other people would make it *better*. If you think that there aren't devs from HTC on this site reverse-engineering kernels and what not and incorporating bits and pieces of them into HTC's stock builds for future releases, you need to think again.

if people could make these refinements when they first release things there would never be updates to software, never be updates to hardware and we'd all still be running around with 20lb laptops and zack morris cell phones.
Things need to be in the peoples' hands before refinements could be made. This was the first Wimax phone with the first attempt at HTC building software to make the wimax radio and huge screen as battery efficient as possible.
There is a reason we are on Android 2.2 (2.3 just released) and windows 7...if they released everything perfectly we would never need revisions or updates!

I think the person who mentioned higher ups with no technical knowledge making hard deadlines is right. The kernel in the latest OTA is supposedly pretty good, even by our standards. I've never tried it. I bet the higher ups allotted more time than they initially planned because of the public outcry.
Many industries now follow the release now, patch later mindset. HTC has been like that for as long as I've used their phones. If they were smart they'd be cherry picking the dev community. People deserve better roms and software. My girlfriend loves her phone now that I've rooted it and upgraded it for her.

Of course companies ship not fully optimized and improve later. The choice is between a shipping product with a revenue stream and no product/revenue at all.
It isn't ideal but this is the real world. I can't say I'm the biggest fan of this approach and I do have experience in the area.
Large (and small) projects require X amount of man hours to complete. If the time to deliver X is too long you can either push the timeline out or you can add more skilled staff. If the date is immobile and you can't add staff, the only other option is to deliver a subset of X and enhance down the road.
I personally feel HTC has done a good job with updates and I use cyanogen mod. I prefer the freedom, am well aware of the risks and can probably fix it if I break it.
Most users cannot
Swyped on my PC36100 using tapatalk!

xviiivx said:
The reason is simple. It's the same thing that goes on at my job. They have non-technical jackasses throwing out hard deadlines for projects they have no clue about how long should take or what's involved in accomplishing. So then the programmers throw together sloppy code to get things working as fast as possible to meet their deadlines so they can keep their jobs. Once things work, they have until the deadline to optimize as much as possible and what they don't get to ends up being "phase 2", or the first update. Of course if the deadline is way too short, the first update ends up being bug fixes instead of much needed optimizations. And then instead of working on those optimizations they have to start writing more sloppy code to meet the next short deadline for the next big project. This is the story of my life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ding! Ding! Ding! Bingo!
Any manufacturing project has a deadline, typically set by some jackass that years ago developed something, typically enforced by some jackass bosses date that years upon years developed something. I've literally been told by my CIO that he built a cable company billing system in a weekend when he was in college, and we should do the same.
People in management positions are not in touch or positions to make proper deadline decisions for engineers. However, engineers are responsible to meet those decisions due to the "due date" given to the engineers. If the engineers had the say, they wouldn't release the product, but the chain of responsibility won't allow that.

Is it just me...

Or does it seem like Honeycomb was rushed out. I get a lot of force closes on my browser and other apps that were installed when I get my Xoom. Does anyone else get that?

Nope, it's just you, nobody has never made a thread like this ever in this forum.
Next time put something real in the title.

Google is going to f***ing dissenchant me with all their little f***ing two sided antics. OK I get it, blah blah open f***ing source etc. But you can't have it both ways. You want to make a liberal system that can be taken advantage of freely by developers and promote creativity and freedom, great. But you do half the work and allow the cyanogenmod team to smooth out the rest of the quarks and make your OS closer to an expected consumer user experience, voiding peoples warranty in the process. Even at this point, OK. BUT YOU CAN'T F***ING HAVE THE HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS AND CARRIERS PARADING AROUND LIKE ITS OK TO MILK A HALF BAKED OS BY SUCKING PEOPLE DRY WITH INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES, ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT EVEN ONE CENT OF ANY OF THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMES OUT OF THEIR POCKET.
Google needs to put the f***ing squeeze on these a*****es or realize that they are full of s***.

IndivisibleP said:
Language in quote cleaned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lolololol its a breath of fresh air seeing someone comment with this much emotion
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App

IndivisibleP said:
Google is going to f***ing dissenchant me with all their little f***ing two sided antics. OK I get it, blah blah open f***ing source etc. But you can't have it both ways. You want to make a liberal system that can be taken advantage of freely by developers and promote creativity and freedom, great. But you do half the work and allow the cyanogenmod team to smooth out the rest of the quarks and make your OS closer to an expected consumer user experience, voiding peoples warranty in the process. Even at this point, OK. BUT YOU CAN'T F***ING HAVE THE HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS AND CARRIERS PARADING AROUND LIKE ITS OK TO MILK A HALF BAKED OS BY SUCKING PEOPLE DRY WITH INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES, ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT EVEN ONE CENT OF ANY OF THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMES OUT OF THEIR POCKET.
Google needs to put the f***ing squeeze on these a*****es or realize that they are full of s***.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and THE OP
Nobody forced you to buy anything. Is honeycomb perfect? no we already know this. 2.2 or 2.3 is not perfect so not sure what you expected. We got earthquakes, tsunamis, and civil wars going on and you are worried about some force closes. You dont like it dont buy it. You should feel lucky you even have the choice to buy a Xoom. Quit your *****in.

IndivisibleP said:
INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like you can't really afford the Xoom. Maybe you should just take it back and get a refund. Yes, I think that's the best course for everyone involved.

DroidzFX said:
and THE OP
Nobody forced you to buy anything. Is honeycomb perfect? no we already know this. 2.2 or 2.3 is not perfect so not sure what you expected. We got earthquakes, tsunamis, and civil wars going on and you are worried about some force closes. You dont like it dont buy it. You should feel lucky you even have the choice to buy a Xoom. Quit your *****in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wasn't "*****in" as you like to put it I was merely asking a question as to whether this was a common thing or if mine was just having problems and maybe I should reload it or something to fix it. If you can't say anything constructive maybe you should avoid using that 1st amendment right of yours.

matdev said:
I wasn't "*****in" as you like to put it I was merely asking a question as to whether this was a common thing or if mine was just having problems and maybe I should reload it or something to fix it. If you can't say anything constructive maybe you should avoid using that 1st amendment right of yours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you should do some research because this question has been asked several times. If the same question or statement is mentioned over and over then it becomes classified as *****in. Unfortunately you fell into this category.

I think the price is fair...and Moto does have software dev time in it - Kernel time at a minimum. I'm fully aware Google was involved in the design process of the device, but I doubt other than a ton of OEM support to Moto that they actually have a ton of resources invested in the device it self.
I guess no one has looked in to purchasing a 32Gb SSD - those alone are $100.
10" screen ~$100 for just a screen without any touch digitizer
So 200 bucks in cost in 2 pieces of hardware.
One of the problems with the Android community as a whole is everyone whining about price. The price of hardware, the price of apps. The Apple drones could care less about price, they'll pay what they are asked to pay regardless of any other thought than "It's white, it has fruit on it" . I however am a fairly informed consumer and am WILLING to pay for latest and greatest as long as it serves my needs.
However, the lack of HC Source has made me reconsider the purchase....

Kcarpenter said:
I think the price is fair...and Moto does have software dev time in it - Kernel time at a minimum. I'm fully aware Google was involved in the design process of the device, but I doubt other than a ton of OEM support to Moto that they actually have a ton of resources invested in the device it self.
I guess no one has looked in to purchasing a 32Gb SSD - those alone are $100.
10" screen ~$100 for just a screen without any touch digitizer
So 200 bucks in cost in 2 pieces of hardware.
One of the problems with the Android community as a whole is everyone whining about price. The price of hardware, the price of apps. The Apple drones could care less about price, they'll pay what they are asked to pay regardless of any other thought than "It's white, it has fruit on it" . I however am a fairly informed consumer and am WILLING to pay for latest and greatest as long as it serves my needs.
However, the lack of HC Source has made me reconsider the purchase....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have to think though, that by not releasing the source.. they are doing their best to avoid some of the issues spoken about previously. Too often manufacturers would like to prey on the uneducated or the early adopters by throwing a half developed piece of hardware out the door, slapping the google android sticker on it.. and then while they profit, they take the good name of Google/Android and drag it through the mud.
Look at the reaction to the original Samsung Galaxy Tab. It was thrown out, with an OS that was not made for a tablet, on hardware not optimized for the design... only to capitalize on the fact that they would be the first out the gate (or at least one of the first). Apple did the same thing, and took their phone OS and blew it up to a larger format. The only reason they succeeded was that they had their system locked down and could ensure that they had a good hardware/software mix. The throngs of iFags everywhere gobble it up because they knew it would be solid enough to satisfy them for a year till the next one comes out and improves on it.
Google is finally learning from Apple in that respect.
By not releasing the sc for HC, they are making sure that they can correct the early issues found with HC in the Xoom, as well as ensure the hardware its installed on meets specific requirements as to not damage their name or their products name. Its not that it wont let it out eventually, but they want to make it as solid as possible before they do. I respect them for that, even if it makes the modding community's job a bit harder in the interim.

Lastly... you can blame the marketing techniques for shady products. Simple people are too excited by shiny products with big words in their advertising, that they get burned by not researching... and those that get burned, cry the most. Those that do their due diligence and research, only blame themselves when they get burned because they overlooked a mistake or failed to prioritize features.

matdev said:
Or does it seem like Honeycomb was rushed out. I get a lot of force closes on my browser and other apps that were installed when I get my Xoom. Does anyone else get that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you give us some more details? Like, did you root your xoom or are you experiencing all of these force closes on a clean xoom that you just got 2 days ago? Did you throw an image on there, sideload a bunch of apps, etc....
Off Topic...
Many people do not understand when they try to compare the Xoom to a polished product like the iPad that the iPad OS has been around for a while before the iPad even came to market (iTouch, iPhone) and developers had already enough time to work with iOS so when the iPad was released there was not that much difference besides the new screen real estate that they had to adjust their apps for. When the iPad first came out there were some bugs, apps had that BS 2x until they were optimized for the iPad, etc...The Xoom is a brand new product that is sporting new hardware and a brand new OS that developers have not had the opportunity to work on until just recently so if "you" are not an early adopter then please buy an iPad. And if you are going to complain about the price of the Xoom compared to an iPad 2 then please explain how many 16GB WiFi only models are selling for the same price right now as a Xoom.

The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App

neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What? You realize android is the most used smartphone platform worldwide right (ignoring sybian)? If that isn't market penetration I don't know what is.
The API differences from 1.6-2.3 are so minor that application compatibility is really a non issue between operating systems. The only issue is hardware differences really.
Ask the average Joe user what version of android or IOS they are using and they'll ask you "what?". Only the power users ***** and moan about these relatively minor OS updates because they always want the latest thing.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App

neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you rooting for Android to fail? You know they do have Windows based phones if you don't like android ones. No one is forcing you to buy anything android. This is not a hate forum so unless you actually own a xoom and have a general question/statement regarding the xoom/honeycomb then why not just go find a "I hate android/linux/capitalism" forum.

neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? You must have been on a deserted island for the last couple years. My Xoom running Honeycomb works just fine. Someone needs to start a thread titled ***** here so you guys can get together share what type of tampons you prefer.

Community?

I hate to ask this, but it seems the N9 community leaves a lot to be desired on XDA. There seems to be very little development and conversation.
For instance, the 5.0.1 update just came out and there is very little conversation on something that will likely fix a few of the bugs we see on our N9.
I certainly appreciate the developers, experts and general enthusiasts that do take part. Is there another site with more activity?

I believe there are so far very few owners.
This is a new product, things will pick up.
There are people complaining about light bleeding and battery life.

I can say I feel the same way. Wondering why there is so little going on around here.
I got my N5 day one and don't remember that board being this quiet/slow.

Count me in on that too. This is definently the most quite I've experienced in a forum, guessing that some of my old communities still are more active than this. I thougt people would be flocking to the N9, but I guess the mixed reviews put them off.
Smashed down on the mighty Nexus 9

Gormsen said:
Count me in on that too. This is definently the most quite I've experienced in a forum, guessing that some of my old communities still are more active than this. I thougt people would be flocking to the N9, but I guess the mixed reviews put them off.
Smashed down on the mighty Nexus 9
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. It's slower than I expected and disappointing. I hope that once the major roms get their kinks worked out and developers get more comfortable with the 64 bit architecture that there will be more development.

Gormsen said:
but I guess the mixed reviews put them off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's really unfortunate. I won't excuse the various hardware issues, but I actually look forward to the opportunity to improve the software of my N9 using ROMs and kernels. That's why I love android and come to XDA.
I can't help but feeling that the N9 review and subsequent comparison with the iPad over at that android-enthusiast site (not sure whether I'm allowed to say the name, but I think many of you know which site I'm referring to) directly impacted the popularity of this device within the android community. I expect mainstream sites to bash Nexus devices and make endless comparisons to Apple products, but it hit pretty hard coming from an Android site. When a site devoted to all things Android basically tells readers to buy an iPad instead, the community is bound to lose interest.
At the risk of assigning too much credit to that review, I'm becoming convinced that it has set off some sort of "change" in the Android community. More and more, I'm seeing individuals that were likely Android-enthusiasts like myself write off the N9 and Lollipop because of that review. It's like they forgot why they loved Android to begin with. We have what may be the first device with a processor and GPU as powerful or more powerful than the latest iPad, and no one wants to touch it. Just look at the Batterylife thread: all you see is rampant comparisons to the iPad. Why is it suddenly so important that an Android device's battery life match an Apple device's? Why not compare its battery life to other Android tablets? Why is the decision regarding which tablet to purchase suddenly only between the N9 and an iPad? What about all the other Android tablets? It's like they don't exist. (And I don't buy that it's the aspect ratio. This obsession with the aspect ratio has set off a false narrative that the N9 is the only true Android alternative to the iPad - as if Samsung and Sony wouldn't rather folks buy their tablets instead of Apple's). This situation is par for the course within the mainstream tech community, but not normally at Android enthusiast sites and XDA.
Anyway...sorry...just had to rant for a bit.

cor_mann said:
It's really unfortunate. I won't excuse the various hardware issues, but I actually look forward to the opportunity to improve the software of my N9 using ROMs and kernels. That's why I love android and come to XDA.
I can't help but feeling that the N9 review and subsequent comparison with the iPad over at that android-enthusiast site (not sure whether I'm allowed to say the name, but I think many of you know which site I'm referring to) directly impacted the popularity of this device within the android community. I expect mainstream sites to bash Nexus devices and make endless comparisons to Apple products, but it hit pretty hard coming from an Android site. When a site devoted to all things Android basically tells readers to buy an iPad instead, the community is bound to lose interest.
At the risk of assigning too much credit to that review, I'm becoming convinced that it has set off some sort of "change" in the Android community. More and more, I'm seeing individuals that were likely Android-enthusiasts like myself write off the N9 and Lollipop because of that review. It's like they forgot why they loved Android to begin with. We have what may be the first device with a processor and GPU as powerful or more powerful than the latest iPad, and no one wants to touch it. Just look at the Batterylife thread: all you see is rampant comparisons to the iPad. Why is it suddenly so important that an Android device's battery life match an Apple device's? Why not compare its battery life to other Android tablets? Why is the decision regarding which tablet to purchase suddenly only between the N9 and an iPad? What about all the other Android tablets? It's like they don't exist. (And I don't buy that it's the aspect ratio. This obsession with the aspect ratio has set off a false narrative that the N9 is the only true Android alternative to the iPad - as if Samsung and Sony wouldn't rather folks buy their tablets instead of Apple's). This situation is par for the course within the mainstream tech community, but not normally at Android enthusiast sites and XDA.
Anyway...sorry...just had to rant for a bit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who cares if it's more powerful than an iPad when apps aren't there to fully use it. Sure. In time. Same story. I'm a experienced Android user. Who just got an iPad to test things out. Color me surprised. The sites weren't bashing the N9 to just bash it. They were talking truth. Whether that hurts you or not, it's mostly facts from my experience of going through 3 replacements. Battery life doesn't compare to my Nexus 7. It's more comparable to a phone battery life. Only a fool with no choice would accept that. I WANT to love it. Just like what MKBHD said. Maybe some issues will get worked out. Many are returning it too. Devs. Well. They're in a mix bag and trail of thought now. But it's not worth the high price anymore.

ram130 said:
Who cares if it's more powerful than an iPad when apps aren't there to fully use it. Sure. In time. Same story. I'm a experienced Android user. Who just got an iPad to test things out. Color me surprised. The sites weren't bashing the N9 to just bash it. They were talking truth. Whether that hurts you or not, it's mostly facts from my experience of going through 3 replacements. Battery life doesn't compare to my Nexus 7. It's more comparable to a phone battery life. Only a fool with no choice would accept that. I WANT to love it. Just like what MKBHD said. Maybe some issues will get worked out. Many are returning it too. Devs. Well. They're in a mix bag and trail of thought now. But it's not worth the high price anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who's "truth" were they talking? Certainly not mine. I have very few of the issues mentioned in the reviews - not that all of the reviews bashed it. I fully acknowledge that it may be your "truth" (and even the reviewers'), but it does not necessarily represent everyone's. I never generalized my experience to the point that it represents anyone's other than my own - nor should you. I understand your frustration, but I don't share it. I may be a "fool", but I guess ignorance is bliss in this case.
To answer your question: I care that it's powerful. Android devices have always been a step behind in this department. I was pretty excited to see that an Android device might actually catch up. I am also willing to take the risk that the apps will catch up. That said, I respect the fact that you may not be (but I'd imagine the apps are the least of your concerns with the various hardware issues).
And why do you assume that I'm offended that you might prefer the iPad? The iPad is a fantastic device. It doesn't surprise me that anyone might prefer it. My "observation" is merely that some discussions at a forums dedicated to the N9 (and Android enthusiast sites) have been uncharacteristically dominated by references and comparisons to the iPad vice other Android tablets.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I am not concerned with the "bashing", as you put it. Bash away. My point is that the discussions at sites dedicated to Android devices (and this forum) have taken on a different tone than with previous devices, IMHO. Go look at the reviews on the various Android sites and tell me how often per review they directly compare a device to an Apple device. These are Android enthusiast sites. One would naturally expect comparisons between and among Android devices, which is how it's generally been in the past. How is it not noteworthy that one of these sites took it upon itself to dedicate a long point-by-point comparison article to the N9 and Air 2, especially after its review was already littered with comparisons? It takes only a modicum of reason to realize that most people peruse Android enthusiast sites to read about Android devices. Not that Android and Apple enthusiasts are mutually exclusive., but there are scores of mainstream tech sites that provides ample comparisons between devices of all types - not to mention sites dedicated specifically to Apple devices.

ram130 said:
Who cares if it's more powerful than an iPad when apps aren't there to fully use it. Sure. In time. Same story. I'm a experienced Android user. Who just got an iPad to test things out. Color me surprised. The sites weren't bashing the N9 to just bash it. They were talking truth. Whether that hurts you or not, it's mostly facts from my experience of going through 3 replacements. Battery life doesn't compare to my Nexus 7. It's more comparable to a phone battery life. Only a fool with no choice would accept that. I WANT to love it. Just like what MKBHD said. Maybe some issues will get worked out. Many are returning it too. Devs. Well. They're in a mix bag and trail of thought now. But it's not worth the high price anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What site is bashing the Nexus 9, none I read.
The reviews I read do not give it glowing reviews but do not bash it either.
Here is an example of a review,
http://www.engadget.com/products/htc/nexus/9/
As far as battery life,
I am a fool.....
The average for battery life is 8 out 10, lots of fools I guess.
The Nexus 9 is not the Nexus 7 or iPad, I wish people stop comparing two unrelated products.

It took awhile for the 2013 N7 to get ANY development, and even longer for the N10. There just isn't a huge market for Android tablets.

cor_mann said:
Who's "truth" were they talking? Certainly not mine. I have very few of the issues mentioned in the reviews - not that all of the reviews bashed it. I fully acknowledge that it may be your "truth" (and even the reviewers'), but it does not necessarily represent everyone's. I never generalized my experience to the point that it represents anyone's other than my own - nor should you. I understand your frustration, but I don't share it. I may be a "fool", but I guess ignorance is bliss in this case.
To answer your question: I care that it's powerful. Android devices have always been a step behind in this department. I was pretty excited to see that an Android device might actually catch up. I am also willing to take the risk that the apps will catch up. That said, I respect the fact that you may not be (but I'd imagine the apps are the least of your concerns with the various hardware issues).
And why do you assume that I'm offended that you might prefer the iPad? The iPad is a fantastic device. It doesn't surprise me that anyone might prefer it. My "observation" is merely that some discussions at a forums dedicated to the N9 (and Android enthusiast sites) have been uncharacteristically dominated by references and comparisons to the iPad vice other Android tablets.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I am not concerned with the "bashing", as you put it. Bash away. My point is that the discussions at sites dedicated to Android devices (and this forum) have taken on a different tone than with previous devices, IMHO. Go look at the reviews on the various Android sites and tell me how often per review they directly compare a device to an Apple device. These are Android enthusiast sites. One would naturally expect comparisons between and among Android devices, which is how it's generally been in the past. How is it not noteworthy that one of these sites took it upon itself to dedicate a long point-by-point comparison article to the N9 and Air 2, especially after its review was already littered with comparisons? It takes only a modicum of reason to realize that most people peruse Android enthusiast sites to read about Android devices. Not that Android and Apple enthusiasts are mutually exclusive., but there are scores of mainstream tech sites that provides ample comparisons between devices of all types - not to mention sites dedicated specifically to Apple devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great points. I did. Didn't meant it has completely saying it's bad. So I take back my choice of words. Thanks. I'm hopeful the Android tablet will rule. I've read the reviews too. Even so it will help push tablet apps. But I'm patient. Just wish Google took more attention to detail.
AstroDigital said:
What site is bashing the Nexus 9, none I read.
The reviews I read do not give it glowing reviews but do not bash it either.
Here is an example of a review,
http://www.engadget.com/products/htc/nexus/9/
As far as battery life,
I am a fool.....
The average for battery life is 8 out 10, lots of fools I guess.
The Nexus 9 is not the Nexus 7 or iPad, I wish people stop comparing two unrelated products.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well If I got that I'd be good. But I don't use my tablet for video.

I too have been surprised with the lack of development on this device. I understand it is a new architecture, being 64 bit, but how about a stock rooted rom?
That is usually the first thing to come out, but I guess we don't have a developer with the device to be able to cook up a stock, rooted rom? What we need to do is get together and donate a device to @scrosler. He is a beast at busting out stock roms for the N7 within minutes it seems!

well, let me throw in a few feelings on this
you can go look at rootzwiki, hahaha a joke, they almost dont exist and barely have any news , let alone devs anymore. when is the last time you say a news blog point to rootz.
its finals time for school, i personally will be taking my calculus final in a few hours, so i dont have time to dive into my N9's new update.
the N9 is a new device, and google is releasing a new AOSP build almost weekly, go have a look at slim roms gerrit , and you will see the amount of work they have been doing for the source. (thought not the n9 yet)
there are way to many posts here of complaints, and statistically thats what happens, people are more likely to complain and post negative things, and not so much positive if its working as expected. i have a very nicely working model, and have no reason to RMA it because the buttons are flush. with no screen bleed or overheating issues.
i also dont feel the need to whine and complain about every little thing like im entitled to perfection . (damn kids today) We have come a long way in devices since my first hand held computer (which still works) the tandy pc-8. and now i have devices which were only a scifi prop a mere 10 years ago.
the new version of the OS, its changes to ART, and core linux behaviour, are causing some devs to to have to dig into new programming books, and alot more source code than had remained the same base for so many years. so i already knew not to expect drastic and fast changes to the newer builds.
it will happen, but its only been a month since i received my device, and hell, the protective cases are not even here yet. ( i found development for the n7 did not get going heavily for at least 2 months after release.
as for attitude on this site, it will happen when one nerd tries to outnerd another, feeling like everyone should already be up to snuff on how to use a editor to edit their settings.db, thats not reality, every single person here was a noob at one time or another, and got help from someone to learn their skill, maybe posters will try to remember that. if you dont have a question, or an answer, think about the reason you are posting, if its to bash someone asking why they cant get a fastboot command to work, help them. we have all left a ";" out at the end of our code at one time or another.
chainfire has been one hell of a bum busting dev, and everyone should toss a few beer/coffee bucks in his direction. i feel he kickstarted the n9's life.

What ever it is, I joined the nexus 9 family. I will be getting the tablet this weekend.

ram130 said:
Great points. I did. Didn't meant it has completely saying it's bad. So I take back my choice of words. Thanks. I'm hopeful the Android tablet will rule. I've read the reviews too. Even so it will help push tablet apps. But I'm patient. Just wish Google took more attention to detail.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I apologize for sounding snarky. I don't want to minimize your frustrations. I can see that you're an android enthusiast (I probably would have given up on finding a quality unit well before you do/did). In many ways, your willingness to share your criticisms may help push Google to address some of the glaring issues with Android and the N9's hardware. I shouldn't have referenced the batterylife thread, because I don't want people to think that it's only their comments that have led to my rant. It's a combination of things.
This probably sounds silly, but I like to think of us android enthusiasts as the people who habitually root for the underdog. We look for virtues (humbleness, etc) in the teams that get completely punished by the opposition. I'm a Redskins fan (sorry...very American reference), so I feel this oh-too-keenly. I know this sounds silly since Google is a multi-billion dollar company, but in the world of tech, Android devices are still perceived as inferior to Apple devices. In other words, they are the underdog.
I get that we shell out hard-earned money for these devices so we deserve to be taken care of. But I feel like it's the intangibles that Android brings to the table - even at its worst - that attract me (customization, more openness, freedom, etc.). I feel like the Android community shares this feeling. I can come to these sites and read/discuss Android devices without the inevitable "just buy an Apple [insert device here]" refrain. I go to Apple sites to read about Apple (or the mainstream tech sites). For me, Android is not about the "perfect" phone or tablet. It's about the process of making it better, which naturally relies on help from people who are much more skilled and knowledgeable than myself. I don't frequent Apple forums much, but I cannot imagine they have the same feeling of community that Android users have. Our developers spend their precious time making people's lives - whom they don't know from Adam - a little bit better at virtually no cost to us - much like Linux and other open-source devs do. Where else in our lives does that happen.
Rightly or wrongly, I feel like the brouhaha caused by some Android sites' uncharacteristic iPad-like expectations for the N9 have directly or indirectly weakened the community response to the N9. I don't want to see people simply give up on the N9 because some Android reviewers implied that it's just better to get an iPad.

mrshades812 said:
I too have been surprised with the lack of development on this device. I understand it is a new architecture, being 64 bit, but how about a stock rooted rom?
That is usually the first thing to come out, but I guess we don't have a developer with the device to be able to cook up a stock, rooted rom? What we need to do is get together and donate a device to @scrosler. He is a beast at busting out stock roms for the N7 within minutes it seems!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would only take 5 minutes but what's the point? You're on the stock ROM, if you want to flash something you already have recovery, literally you just download this and flash it. Rooted stock ROM. With a nexus you always have googles images to flash. If you have recovery rooting them is only a flash away.
I'm not being smart, I'm seriously asking is that something people actually want?

cor_mann said:
I apologize for sounding snarky. I don't want to minimize your frustrations. I can see that you're an android enthusiast (I probably would have given up on finding a quality unit well before you do/did). In many ways, your willingness to share your criticisms may help push Google to address some of the glaring issues with Android and the N9's hardware. I shouldn't have referenced the batterylife thread, because I don't want people to think that it's only their comments that have led to my rant. It's a combination of things.
This probably sounds silly, but I like to think of us android enthusiasts as the people who habitually root for the underdog. We look for virtues (humbleness, etc) in the teams that get completely punished by the opposition. I'm a Redskins fan (sorry...very American reference), so I feel this oh-too-keenly. I know this sounds silly since Google is a multi-billion dollar company, but in the world of tech, Android devices are still perceived as inferior to Apple devices. In other words, they are the underdog.
I get that we shell out hard-earned money for these devices so we deserve to be taken care of. But I feel like it's the intangibles that Android brings to the table - even at its worst - that attract me (customization, more openness, freedom, etc.). I feel like the Android community shares this feeling. I can come to these sites and read/discuss Android devices without the inevitable "just buy an Apple [insert device here]" refrain. I go to Apple sites to read about Apple (or the mainstream tech sites). For me, Android is not about the "perfect" phone or tablet. It's about the process of making it better, which naturally relies on help from people who are much more skilled and knowledgeable than myself. I don't frequent Apple forums much, but I cannot imagine they have the same feeling of community that Android users have. Our developers spend their precious time making people's lives - whom they don't know from Adam - a little bit better at virtually no cost to us - much like Linux and other open-source devs do. Where else in our lives does that happen.
Rightly or wrongly, I feel like the brouhaha caused by some Android sites' uncharacteristic iPad-like expectations for the N9 have directly or indirectly weakened the community response to the N9. I don't want to see people simply give up on the N9 because some Android reviewers implied that it's just better to get an iPad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mate, I've read all you've said, and I have to say that I agree with you all the way. You really hit the nail on it's head. When I got my first Android it was the HTC Wildfire, horrible device, but when I heard about what rooting was and what it could do I got exited! There was a possibility to make it better.. This feeling continued through my Desire S and One X. But when I got the Nexus 5, it sort of halted. I got an amazing device without much hazzle and now on the OnePlus One I'm running stock rooted.. The excitement is gone.. But now we have the opportunity once again. A device which leaves much to be improved and optimized, just like the old days. I, for one, am really looking forward to see this beast reach its full potential and I'm enjoying the ride to get there
Smashed down on the mighty Nexus 9

The key issue is that the tablet market is saturated now... Tablets are actually on a downswing currently (even with iPads, etc.). With the recent introduction and trend towards larger phones, the lines become further blurred.
I think the slow adoption of the N9 is not only impacted by this downswing, but also add in the price point it's coming in at compared to the various competing tablets. Add in the wildly varying reviews (though most of them are fairly consistent in that lollipop is great, the hardware is sufficient, but most are disappointed in one aspect or another)... I'm not surprised at the low adoption rate to-date with the tablet. MKBHDs review echoes my issues perfectly... Software is great... Hardware is ok but it needs to drop in price...
I've returned my unit "for now" until the price drops and, hopefully in the meantime, the nitpicks on the hardware can be addressed with the build quality.
I expect once the LTE version comes out we will see a price drop and hopefully the QC is in check by then .... At that point I'll be in the market again to buy it (hopefully for $100-$200 cheaper).
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

di11igaf said:
It would only take 5 minutes but what's the point? You're on the stock ROM, if you want to flash something you already have recovery, literally you just download this and flash it. Rooted stock ROM. With a nexus you always have googles images to flash. If you have recovery rooting them is only a flash away.
I'm not being smart, I'm seriously asking is that something people actually want?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you missed the point. The topic was community, so I was commenting on the lack of even a stock rom.
Smashed on the N9

jsgiv said:
I think the slow adoption of the N9 is not only impacted by this downswing, but also add in the price point it's coming in at compared to the various competing tablets. Add in the wildly varying reviews (though most of them are fairly consistent in that lollipop is great, the hardware is sufficient, but most are disappointed in one aspect or another)... I'm not surprised at the low adoption rate to-date with the tablet. MKBHDs review echoes my issues perfectly... Software is great... Hardware is ok but it needs to drop in price...
I've returned my unit "for now" until the price drops and, hopefully in the meantime, the nitpicks on the hardware can be addressed with the build quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe the pricepoint is what drove some of the comparison with the ipads. I, like many of you, have waited a long time for the 9 to come out. I even set aside the cash to pick up the 32 gig even though it was a lot higher priced than i thought it was going to be. I wanted this to be my first tablet.
I had purchased a 1st Gen 7 for my wife for Christmas two years ago and she loves that thing. Once I started seeing the negative reviews and posts about the poor build quality I reconsidered.
So on Black Friday I jumped on the $199 8.4 tab pro deal. Great little tablet for the money But I sure wanted to join the Nexus Club. Maybe later when the price comes down and they get some of the bugs worked out it will be worth the premium.