Database Users

My dealings with HTC

Just posted this on the T-mobs forums and some of this is already in the "lets get the kernel thread" but I think we should make a single source for what information HTC is giving us in case this does proceed to legal action, etc. Had to futz a little with the hyperlinks since I'm a new poster to XDA but am not a new user of this blissful place. So here it is...
I call BS on the whole thing.
I've been trying to get HTC to release the source code and also bringing up the shenanigans that they pulled on us all with this root block and internal memory bait and switch crap. Here is my dealings with HTC so far. Love the blame game they switch at the end of our discussion. I know this is a lot to read but trust me that this back and forth is quite entertaining.
MY 1ST HTC MESSAGE
To whom it may pertain to... Just purchased a HTC T-mobile G2 aka HTC Vision and have been a avid HTC supporter for quite sometime. Ever since I owned my first HTC device the codenamed blueangel. The fact that HTC would work with the developer community pulled me toward your devices. I can't believe you guys (HTC) would lock down the successor to the device that helped you start the "open" revolution. I know it was most probably T-mobile that made you do it but that is besides the point. Especially since they have blamed you in the press. You have spit it the face of the developer community and shame on you and T-mobile. This protection will be broken I have no doubt of that but the fact that HTC put it there at all is what is in question. Please don't make this a race of protection...hack...protection...hack. OPEN means we should work together not against each other. So please do the right thing and help us either root these devices or give us the kernel source to help us along. Or even better do both of the above and show you respect the dev community like we all thought you did. Below I have included the first post of a stream that will become a torrent against HTC from the XDA devs. Thanks for your cooperation.
MY 1ST HTC REPLY
We cannot comment on whether or not HTC has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. Rooting the phone may open the phone up to virus attacks and other un-secure activities, as well as introduce intended functionality, and as such is very difficult for us to support. We cannot comment on whether or not HTC, Google, or T-Mobile has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. All three companies work very closely to bring you the best experience on the phone possible. I do understand how important it is to be able to use your device to the best of its capabilities. We are not withholding the kernel; we are currently working through the legal channels that we must go through to make the kernel available to you. Each product is individually under review. When the kernel is available, you will be able to find it on developer.htc.com. I apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced, and thank you for your patience in this matter.
MY 2ND HTC MESSAGE
I understand the position of HTC to not comment on the situation at hand even though it has already been outed in the press by T-mobile that HTC did indeed lock the phone. So either you are saying that the T-mobile press release was a hoax and HTC did nothing with write protection or HTC just want's the problem to go away. As far as not wanting us to root because of unsafe activities.... Well I don't even know where to start with that comment. We are all big boys and girls and can handle the effect of our actions. It's like saying Toyota installed a system in my car that will only let a certified technician open the hood because I may insert washer fluid into the engine instead of oil. Most companies would love it if you would void your warranty. Does it not lead to less operating cost for HTC in the long run to not support it's products because the warranties are void? You don't want me to void my warranty then do as the GPS companies do and make a disclaimer that I have to read and agree to before I go any further. Also on the subject of voiding warranties did HTC not say that G2 had 4gb's of internal storage? Yet only 1.2gb are available for use because of this lock? Back to the car analogies. If Ford says your car has 200 horse power in the brochure and (AFTER!!!!) you buy it you learn that only 50 horse power is unlocked you might be a little angry. No? I understand the position of all big companies is to play dumb until something either is forgotten or legal channels make them play smart but I do have to say that I did not expect this out of HTC. This post isn't directed at you Sarah but merely my G2 and thousands of others crippled devices. If you could pass this and my prior message to someone higher up that might at least read it and think it over it would be greatly appreciated.
MY 2ND HTC REPLY
Thank you for contacting HTC Technical Assistance Center. I do understand your desire to fully explore the G2’s potential. Let me try and address your concerns one by one. In regards to your request for source code, HTC will typically publish on developer.htc the Kernel open source code for recently released devices. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. As for your concerns about the internal memory space, the space listed on the box and in advertisements is the total storage capacity of the phone, and in fact does exist in the phone. The majority of the space is being used to make sure your phone is running at optimal performance levels. If you require more space, you can use the provided SD Card to add media and other files. Our SD card reader can support up to 16gb of extended storage. Try and look at it along the lines of your computer. Just because on a floppy disk you had 1.44 mb of space didn’t ever mean you could use all that. There was always an amount of space you could never use. This is true for any computer type related device with storage. Big or small there’s always an amount of “floating” space needed. At this point we will be happy to document your concern with the current release state of the phone. Your concerns are being forwarded to the proper departments. Beyond the information provided, however, we would have nothing additional to release
MY 3RD HTC MESSAGE
Ummm. The reply on the 1.44mb floppy is just crazy out of bounds. Yes I understand that if I install a 1tb drive on my computer some 100mb's or so may be floating but not 500 gigs of my drive!!! You guys commandeered over HALF of the internal storage of the G2. That's just crazy. Also on the (right?) that you have to release the source code in 90-120 days.... Who made up that number? Certainly not the GPL you are supposed to adhere to. An excerpt from freedom-to-tinker talking about the G2 source code. "Perhaps HTC (and T-Mobile, distributor of the phone) should review the actual contents of the GNU Public License (v2), which stipulate the legal requirements for modifying and redistributing Linux. They state that you may only distribute derivative code if you accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code." Notably, there is no mention of a "grace period" or the like. The importance of redistributing source code in a timely fashion goes beyond enabling phone rooting. It is the foundation of the "copyleft" regime of software licensing that has led to the flourishing of the open source software ecosystem. If every useful modification required waiting 90 to 120 days to be built upon, it would have taken eons to get to where we are today. It's one thing for a company to choose to pursue the closed-source model and to start from scratch, but it's another thing for it to profit from the goodwill of the open source community while imposing arbitrary and illegal restrictions on the code." Please release the code. =)
MY 3RD HTC REPLY
I understand how this can be frustrating for you. To start, we are aware of a situation where the phone is not properly reflecting the correct amount of storage available on the device and we are working with T-Mobile to figure out why this is happening and how to resolve it. I appreciate your patience with it. Next, we provide a timeframe of 90-120 days for the release of the source code as a courtesy for our customer. Unfortunately, HTC Technical Support has no control over what is or is not published on our website and we can only forward the requests to our software developement team and website administrator. The code will be released and when it is you may find it on our developer website. Unfortuantely, my office only handles the technical troubleshooting of our devices stock software and hardware. I do apologize for any inconvenience that you may have experienced through this.
I SMELL WEAK SAUCE ALL OVER THIS!!!!

Are you emailing HTC America about this? Not sure what you think that will accomplish given that none of their low level engineering is done in the US. Also, what's with the rage over root? Did the labelling on your G2 box promise root or bootloader access? I thought we all went into this with the assumption this would be a consumer device and as such was fair game for any sort of anti-cracking protection.

It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.
Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch **** but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."

simobile said:
It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.
Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch **** but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."
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lmfaooooooooooo i died reading this man hahahahahaha im in tears man. but that is true tho. what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne " this shows that htc aint that bad but this still sucks, for now. two things lead me to believe that its gonna get rooted permanently:
1: this phone is bound to have updates which obviously isnt the stock that the phone came with. if this was a computer chip or whatever then any phone that comes with it wont recieve any updates because it will return to original way it came in the box right?
2: it will be really pointless releasing the source code if it wouldnt help with the rooting.
im not the best when it comes with source codes and rooting, im just thinking out loud is all. feel free to correct me.

Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.

what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne "
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I do agree that I was also shocked that they were actually responding to my messages instead of some generic corportate bs. So I do give them Kudos for that.
Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.
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This is kinda what I envisioned for this thread. You could share your experiences with HTC or Tmobile if you have already contacted them and If you haven't hopefully it would prompt you too. I would like them to come out in November and say that that 90% of device complaint calls / emails were from the G2. Unrealistic I know but I can dream.

... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.
And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.
The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).
I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.

I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...
While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.
Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

Ditto
Jorsher said:
I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...
While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.
Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
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Second that!

shograt said:
... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.
And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.
The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).
I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.
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Your right about android being apache, that's why they can have closed source things like sense. HOWEVER the kernel is infact a moddified linux kernel, which in fact falls under GPLv2. According to the GPL violations angency has stated that they are infact in viaolation.
And simobile glad you started this thread, seems people were more concerned with my grammer the the problem at hand here...

Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.

SuperDave81 said:
Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.
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As someone who gives his hard earned money to HTC, how does he not have the right to ask them whatever he wants? If they don't respond, or blow him off, it'll turn a lot of us off HTC.
He isn't ruining anything other than your little bubble which I'm pretty sure no one else cares about.

One thing about their reply - they said the microSD card was max 16 gb. Whatever happened to the 32gb their other phones can read? Was this an error by customer services?

I know there is quite a few holes in the responses they gave me... 16gb vs 32gb, a bug that tmob and them are working on to fix missing memory? Quite odd indeed. Despite all those things I would urge everyone to send them a message and please post responses here. I'd like this to stay topical and not become a "oh I have a me too trolling comment in my head so let me reply" So please go to the link below and shoot them a message if you have a complaint about all this. The more people that do the better chance we won't have to sit back and wait 90-120 days for this source. It's super simple and they seem to respond pretty quick.
http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc_bymail.aspx

Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.

Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
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Congratulations you win a bridge....You can live under it and charge people as they pass over. Jesus Christ your thoughts are so important go ahead and spill them.
Plus you might be interested in my new site
www.XDA-i<3-stockdevices.com
Since that's all the trolls seem interested in.

simobile said:
Congratulations you win a bridge....You can live under it and charge people as they pass over. Jesus Christ your thoughts are so important go ahead and spill them.
Plus you might be interested in my new site
www.XDA-i<3-stockdevices.com
Since that's all the trolls seem interested in.
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Ummm, wtf?

Funny how when a post doesn't adhere to the topic at hand it makes people go WTF? Now ask yourself did your post have anything to do with the topic of this thread? Or anything to do with the want to modify or dev a device?

SuperFly03 said:
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
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Uhm, I spend $500 on a new phone, and I can't even count on the stupid thing to stay running through the day? Yeah, I'd consider that something to be pissed about. I've owned many HTC devices over the years, and have bought most of them outright in the release week. NEVER have I had one with as many issues as the G2. I took it back today, and told them even if they fix all these issues (screen, memory, random reboots and lockups, and trackpad spazzing out) I doubt I'd pick another one up.
I've got a funny feeling, that some of these issues tie directly into the locking down of rooting on this phone as well... Whether it be technical, or they just wasted all their time locking it down rather than doing some basic Q&A, it's a pretty big issue.
So yeah, I don't advise you coming in here and telling people that it is no big deal that a device that costs as much as a new laptop doesn't work worth ****.

SuperFly03 said:
Ummm, wtf?
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haha, just saw this. WTF are you doing on XDA if you don't want to mod your device?

Possible reason for the update delays

Dunno if you guys have seen this. I didn't notice because I usually only hang around here but it just got posted to reddit so I saw it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=913045
If true, it would definitely explain a lot of things. It does make me dislike Samsung, but hopefully the carriers can strong-arm Samsung into doing what everyone else is doing.
Personally, I bought this phone because it was either this or the Droid X, and the difference was that while the DX might have Froyo now, the odds of Motorola putting Gingerbread on it are less than 100%, and the odds of it getting anything after that are even lower, and with the locked bootloader you can't do anything about it. With the Fascinate, at least we can look forward to community built ROMs for some time into the future, definitely past what Samsung is willing to do (I figure they're never going to even consider putting Gingerbread on the Fascinate what with the LTE phones coming out soon, and SAMOLED+ and all that). People should probably avoid Samsung unless they specifically want the nice hardware and easy hacking, in which case it seems like Samsung is the most lax with security so they're the best choice for hacking.

Hmm, very enlightening, of it's true of course. Sounds entirely plausible though. Oh well, I really don't care anymore, not with kaos and friends on the job.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

This is what we all expected.
But the question is... Why was it released with Eclair when Froyo was released before this phone was released.

wasn't the reason it was released with eclair because of the 1.6 ril or whatever? from what i read, the ril would barely work with eclair and no way for it to work with froyo.
my understanding is that a large part of the magic that kaos is doing was to build a functional ril.

They arent building a new ril. They are hacking android around the current crap ril Samsung gave us.

Don't buy it.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

upsidedownaaron said:
wasn't the reason it was released with eclair because of the 1.6 ril or whatever? from what i read, the ril would barely work with eclair and no way for it to work with froyo.
my understanding is that a large part of the magic that kaos is doing was to build a functional ril.
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That's what jt's been doing, and he ended up just hacking the current Samsung RIL to work. And if you follow his twitter, he said that the RIL from Eclair, Froyo, and Gingerbread on the Android side didn't change much which is why they're jumping straight to Gingerbread instead of wasting time with Eclair.

upsidedownaaron said:
wasn't the reason it was released with eclair because of the 1.6 ril or whatever? from what i read, the ril would barely work with eclair and no way for it to work with froyo.
my understanding is that a large part of the magic that kaos is doing was to build a functional ril.
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Um, wow, what have you been reading? First off, our phone came with 2.1, not 1.6, so I'm not sure where you got that number from.
Secondly, the reason that we (not Samsung) could not build a ROM not based on the stock OEM ROM was because the source code for the RIL that Samsung provided for the Fascinate was bad code, which made it extremely difficult to create a working RIL what will work with a custom OS. However, jt1134 and punk.kaos were able to reverse engineer the bad code into working code, in order to proceed with ROM building.
This has nothing to do with Samsung themselves though. Samsung built the RIL to begin with, so they most certainly can (and have) created RIL code that works with Froyo, quite a long time ago in fact. They released the Galaxy S line with Eclair because that was likely the newest version available when they began developing the OS for those phones. In order to convert the OS to Froyo to launch it on the phone, they would have had to significantly delay the launch, which was not an option. This is likely why so many phones are released with outdated versions of Android. And I would like to point out that if they just put Google's code on there and didn't insist in polluting it with their own proprietary junk, it wouldn't take so long to release in the first place, and wouldn't be so difficult to upgrade later.
Getting back on topic, I figured that the problem with getting these updates really all comes down to money. People have always had to pay for OS upgrades for PCs, but due to Android and iOS, have now come to expect to receive these updates for free. The problem is, somebody has to develop an upgrade process, and test the heck out of it, and those developers have to get paid. So the OEM pays them, and then naturally tries to pass the cost along to the carrier, because they don't want to work for free. The carrier also doesn't want to pay for the upgrade, but also knows they can't get away with charging their customers for it without significant backlash, so they basically just sit there and hope the problem eventually goes away, or that the OEM will finally back down and release the update for free, which is what's been described as our current situation.
If this is really such a big problem, they could be taking steps to not end up in this situation, such as figuring the cost of these upgrades into the price of the phones and/or rate plans. However, the carriers also have added incentive to not push for the upgrades, because that effectively extends the life of the handset, and they want you to keep buying new hardware all the time, since they make money from selling hardware, and lose money on the free upgrades.
In the end, it's all about money. Thankfully we have such a great community of developers here on XDA that are willing to go the extra mile to not only get us our upgrades, but also add cool features and boost the performance way beyond what the manufacturer gave us. Thanks to that, our hardware's lifetime is determined not by when a carrier or OEM pulls support, but rather by when the devices physically die or break, or the hardware becomes too outdated for the tasks we wish to perform. And this way, through donations, we can pay our developers for good upgrades, not our carrier for crappy, bloated ones.

Im not saying its true but the most legitimate explanation for all this bull**** I have actually heard in a while. So for what its worth Im not going to shoot that down. Possibly true at this point.
Sent from my fascination station using XDA App

ivorycruncher said:
Um, wow, what have you been reading? First off, our phone came with 2.1, not 1.6, so I'm not sure where you got that number from.
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Mrbirdman said it himself, actually. (1.5, but close enough).
http://twitter.com/#!/_mrbirdman_/status/3002051533479936
Anyway, I don't know whether to believe this but it explains why no US carriers have Froyo yet. It's kind of frustrating that Verizon is the only carrier that hasn't even had a leaked Froyo build it seems. Damn ingrates spoiling leaks for the rest of us.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the link. I admit that tweet came before I followed him on twitter, so I hadn't seen that. I can see how that would complicate matters though.

This is the last farkin' time I ever buy a Samsung phone. Shame on me for believing their lies when they said they'd support it.

If that user is really violating an NDA, he's already fired, and the XDA admins would be hearing from lawyers demanding they remove the thread.
Sounds like it's just more trumped up bull**** designed to stir up the masses. Who knows really, but all I know is I wasn't stupid enough to purchase a phone based on future "promises."

Jake_Mongoose said:
This is the last farkin' time I ever buy a Samsung phone. Shame on me for believing their lies when they said they'd support it.
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You might wanna rethink that. Why, you ask? Because Samsung puts out some of the best hardware available, especially the screens, and we always have devs that can hack up the code to make it better than it ever would have been with a stock ROM. HTC isn't too bad, though the issue with rooting the G2 is certainly raising some eyebrows, but if you were thinking about Motorola, have fun with your locked bootloader and other fun tricks that attempt to squash community development. Aside from lousy source code, Samsung phones are the easiest to root and customize due to the unlocked bootloader. You can basically just flash anything you want with ODIN, no problem.

It is not necessarily the case in the future because Tab reportedly has locked boot loader. This said people already found workaround, but who knows?..

That is true. Nobody knows what the future holds. In any case, if you have no problem loading custom software from XDA devs on your phone, then OEM software support should not even be on the list of requirements when buying a phone. I now make my phone purchasing decisions purely based on hardware specs and quality. If it's a quality piece of hardware with the features I want, on my carrier of choice (Verizon), I will buy it, regardless of manufacturer or UI. Warranties and insurance work the same no matter who makes it, and software updates come from XDA, so nothing else really matters. But then again, that's just my opinion.

ivorycruncher said:
That is true. Nobody knows what the future holds. In any case, if you have no problem loading custom software from XDA devs on your phone, then OEM software support should not even be on the list of requirements when buying a phone. I now make my phone purchasing decisions purely based on hardware specs and quality. If it's a quality piece of hardware with the features I want, on my carrier of choice (Verizon), I will buy it, regardless of manufacturer or UI. Warranties and insurance work the same no matter who makes it, and software updates come from XDA, so nothing else really matters. But then again, that's just my opinion.
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Yup, this is how I've decided to make phone decisions from now on as well. As long as the phone's software can be replaced by XDA, I don't care too much about the manufacturer's updates.

J Shed said:
If that user is really violating an NDA, he's already fired, and the XDA admins would be hearing from lawyers demanding they remove the thread.
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It is easier to hide posting on a forum than it is sending a tip into an online news outlet, at least in general. Also, by posting it in a forum, it is entirely likely that it will be up for longer than it would be if posted at say, Engadget, because it takes longer for news to show up in major outlets if posted in a forum first as opposed to a news site. If it were posted at Engadget or another tech blog, they are likely watched over very closely for potential NDA breaches, etc. I doubt Samsung looks are random forums/subforums/threads nearly as close.

IF it were $$ couldn't we as users pay like $20 for Froyo...
x 3 million phones = more than enough to pay for DEV

I don't buy it.
Why?
Because these companies work off of contracts. Verizon would know exactly what they were getting into before signing. If Samsung decides to breach said contract, fine, let Verizon sue the hell out of them. Lastly, Verizon would not have sold or marketed docks that rely on 2.2, if they had no intention of releasing it.
Actually one more thing. If US Carriers were refusing, Samsung would halt development. We are seeing new leaks for the other US models all the time, and Verizon is still being worked on (but not leaked).
This is a case of where 2+2=5=false.

Email campaign to HTC support for unsecured bootloaders.

Guys,
All of you owning a HTC Wildfire (Buzz) or any other HTC Android phone, go to the support page and sent the following email:
Dear HTC Support,
As you will not release more updates to the Wildfire and I will not be able to buy a new phone after using the phone for just 9 Months, is there any possibility that I (or even better: the community) can get an unlocked bootloader to install custom roms for the HTC Wildfire?
I do understand that you will try to force people to buy new HTC phones but not everyone can afford a new phone after 12Months and since the hardware is still up to date and running perfectly fine it should be possible to install customized roms to enhance the Wildfire (or any other) experience. I'm totally aware that this would void any warranty and support for the phone but as there is no more updates it doesn't matter anyway.
Wouldn't it make a much more positive company image if you would allow to do so? I will defentively only consider a customizable phone for the next one I buy and I would be very sad if HTC would not be on the list of possibilities.
Hope I can get a positive feedback from you guys and I do hope you understand my side and the rest of all of those freaks out there doing incredible things with your briliant hardware and software!
This would increas HTC popularity for sure and is also a fact for selling more phones than your competitors (SonyEricsson, Motorola).
Kind regards
YOURNAME
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If my english is not good enough feel free to rewrite the text but keep the same information to make sure the recognize that multiple users are sending these requests.
Maybe this helps to put some pressure on them as we are their customers spend our money to them and try to get the same as the community could do for the Motorola phones.
Unfortunately I'm not yet allowed to add any hyperlinks to the post and therefore the url to the world wide support form of HTC can't be posted by me...*sorry* (Anyone can do a followup post including the link?)
Thanks
Linuxcrash

Waste of time, if you send it to support or anything.
Support team just bins this kind of things.

ill try even this... sent

There is already a signing compaign started. First raise the number of signs in that and later we can think of complaint letters. First we need to know how many people will support it, so that if decent number of people (like thousands) support we can make a single complaint (of all the people) at a time, which will be more powerful. These individual complaints by people will never be bothered by htc for sure. And moreover these individual complaints gets splitted based on different countries, as each country has its specific support website. And splitting up these compaign processes will affect both of processes.
we can really expect the decent number of signs if everyone properly shares the link. Because while signing one need not create website user id.
link to the signing compaign : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1050222

I think it still is worth doing it.
I do agree that we should concentrate on the list but still just sending a complaint does not cost much and might raise a little of awareness.
If we have these multiple channels of communication we just need to use them and on one of them it might be heard
Even if those different support guys trash it, they might discuss this during a meeting or even during their break and if there are enough people talking about it, the complaints might go to the right person.
I see this here in my company aswell. If customers would complain more about the situation it, would probably have an influence later.
Keep on spreading "awareness" ...

Actually they didn't lock the bootloader accidentally. Its a planned thing to sell their newer wildfire S (which will be the mid range htc android phone). And they will continue to lock every htc android phone. I don't expect they will unlock it even if wildfire S gets outdated. Making others aware of not buying the locked htc phones will have some effect.
Anyhow i agree that it should be worth a try. Having a try will not cost us anything. But most probably, this will be considered as a spam. And i have sent the mail to support this. I used the worldwide htc support website to do this. And why don't we try to learn something, share our ideas, and try to root the wildfire..

Indeed I think it's pointless to send this request to HTC.
It is clearly a corporate strategy to lock their devices and make more turnover by selling new types over shorter periods of time.
It's just about the money and not about the users

Actually they do not really treat it as spam but at least do not answer positively..
.Got 2 answers back from HTC support telling me that they will never allow customers to install custom rom on their phones. But wait what happens if at one time they get massive (hope there are enough freaks/geeks out there) requests to allow it??
Therefore I agree with you but still keep asking doesnt cost anything and you never know what can happen.
In the meantime we definitively should keep trying to root the phone in any available way.

Henkdrenth said:
Indeed I think it's pointless to send this request to HTC.
It is clearly a corporate strategy to lock their devices and make more turnover by selling new types over shorter periods of time.
It's just about the money and not about the users
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Surely they may unlock.it to compete with sony erricson (who i am not happy with for losing my psn data) and motorola
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

e-mail reply
Reply: From HTC [email protected]
"Thank you for contacting HTC.
In regards to your enquiry, you can kindly recieve the FOTA upgrade to the 2.2 android(Froyo) version, simply by going to menu > settings > about phone > system software updates > check now.
The maximum version that the wildfire phone can get upgraded to in version 2.2
We do not force customers to buy new phones Sir, as we do provide upgrades and updates for the phones as soon as possible.
Unfortunately Sir we cannot provide you with information about an unlocked bootloader to install custom roms,as this is an illegal process ,and will affect the warranty of the phone."

Illegal? http://www.androidphonegeek.com/2010/07/rooting-your-phone-now-100-legal
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

brilldoctor said:
Illegal?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is simply a response from htc support a question. Do not expect it to be a clever answer. These things are not decided by people who meet these emails. A people who have to answer them do not care about it. Because they have a plan of work that followed, but it is quite clear that it does not include S = off for Wildfire. We just do traffic in the forum of XDA. Nothing more we can do with HTC at the official way!
Fingers crossed! - guys with big brains to do something, because only they can help us now. No other ...
Do not know English very well written - sorry

brilldoctor said:
Illegal? http://www.androidphonegeek.com/2010/07/rooting-your-phone-now-100-legal
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, even if it is legal, their intentions will not support it. If we can see those "100% legal" in official websites of HTC or SE etc, we can confirm that it is legal.
The point is, we the geeks want it, need it, expect it, hope it to be legal.
How about google delaying the release of honeycomb source code. They intend to restrict the honeycomb to those devices which are manufactured with it.
And if people gets aware of locked botloaders, their market will be affected. Then they will manufacture the devices with root options. But people becoming aware never happens.....
al-ien4 said:
This is simply a response from htc support a question. Do not expect it to be a clever answer. These things are not decided by people who meet these emails. A people who have to answer them do not care about it. Because they have a plan of work that followed, but it is quite clear that it does not include S = off for Wildfire. We just do traffic in the forum of XDA. Nothing more we can do with HTC at the official way!
Fingers crossed! - guys with big brains to do something, because only they can help us now. No other ...
Do not know English very well written - sorry
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree that these things are not decided by people who meet these emails, since all of us got the same replies.
And where are these guys with big brains. Im sure wildfire users with big brains are previously aware of not making the froyo ota update. In that case they will have a pre-rooted device and will not work on the rooting process..
And no updates of unrevoked regarding wildfire. Not sure whether they got the device, working, or not... Who else then......... Is it going to be like this forever.

bharatgaddameedi said:
I agree that these things are not decided by people who meet these emails, since all of us got the same replies.
And where are these guys with big brains. Im sure wildfire users with big brains are previously aware of not making the froyo ota update. In that case they will have a pre-rooted device and will not work on the rooting process..
And no updates of unrevoked regarding wildfire. Not sure whether they got the device, working, or not... Who else then......... Is it going to be like this forever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Business with HTC clip going strong since the update came out for Wildfire 2.2 Who manufactures these devices? If you are so s = off for people using this device will be less customers. Currently the only way is HTC clip - of which make any money, unlike unrevoked, which would make it more for glory than for money. Therefore I think that when willing to root through HTC clip fall, will appear and exploit for Wildfire. A first for low-end phones will also appear on the market in order to draw more money to compensate for the low price.
Another variant of the HTC negligence is simply silly to have received the update to 2.2 and now do not care (or shame them to fix the "error")
Anyway, can not do nothing but constantly picking and pray to the guys with "big brains" to say something about it. And if there is no way for S = off (or are not involved because they are arrogant and they like thousands of people to pray them every day for something) - at least to say it until the price of the phone is relatively good for sale yet ...
I just think everything is money and edification.
Do not know English very well written - sorry

Would it be possible to merge this with my campaign
Sent from some atoms

From my side it would even be a good thing to have all campaigns merged together and make it sticky so it stays at the top of the general board.
Any XDA-Board admin volunteer??
Thanks in advance

linuxcrash said:
From my side it would even be a good thing to have all campaigns merged together and make it sticky so it stays at the top of the general board.
Any XDA-Board admin volunteer??
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 on that
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using XDA App

Additional effect .....
Im expecting this is the right time to even go with this additional email campaign process. This should definitely give some boost now.
What do everyone think.

HTC are reviewing the locked bootloader policy

Just thought I would dive in and drop a link for anyone that is yet to comment..
And yes, it does belong in the dev section
http://www.facebook.com/notes/htc/update-on-bootloaders/10150305151453084
Sent from my LeeDrOID loaded Desire HD

My personal opinion is, I don't think they will go through with it. HTC has always been the number one developers phone for the longest time and they'll probably realize that before releasing a phone with a locked bootloader. I'm just saying if they did, I have NO idea what I would do. I can't stand any other manufacturers way of creating phones so I guess I'd be chillin with my Inspire till someone cracked one of the nicer/newer HTC phones. what would you do? I can't EVER see myself using a stock phone just to stay up to date on phone releases.

This is bad....
Evo 3D to have locked-down bootloader
I hope this is old news

motoman234 said:
My personal opinion is, I don't think they will go through with it. HTC has always been the number one developers phone for the longest time and they'll probably realize that before releasing a phone with a locked bootloader. I'm just saying if they did, I have NO idea what I would do. I can't stand any other manufacturers way of creating phones so I guess I'd be chillin with my Inspire till someone cracked one of the nicer/newer HTC phones. what would you do? I can't EVER see myself using a stock phone just to stay up to date on phone releases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
honestly the galaxy s2(or variants of it) woould be my next choices, samsung is starting to pump out some nice phones. i still love htc more though. a locked bootloader= no deal for me

Nice one - Sony Ericsson made that announcement not long ago about opening the boot loader which made them very popular in the se world and now htc are doing it.
Its obviously just to be popular with consumers. Good news for htc

I just have a hint they will lift the locking of those boot loaders though I might still be sticking to the good old Sense UI whether it's locked or unlocked.

Nick281051 said:
honestly the galaxy s2(or variants of it) woould be my next choices, samsung is starting to pump out some nice phones. i still love htc more though. a locked bootloader= no deal for me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The phones themselves aren't bad, its the being stuck to AOSP or TouchWiz that's a deal breaker for me. I had a Vibrant and got rid of it within a week of buying it due to being bored. That's just my opinion though, once your use to Sense, you can never go back. Especially since official Sense 3.0 is around the corner. If the Sensation isn't locked down then it'll be mine .

I had a milestone before... So I know well the bootloader lock policy...
At least HTC listen to their customers...
I think they will change the bootloader lock policy cause they are smart guys and they know that there are many many people who buy HTC cause they like the freedom of unlocked bootloader...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme

Good. I had almost lost my hope of ever buying an Htc phone again.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using XDA Premium App

I wonder if it's a publicity stunt.
Hoping that the net effect of (announcing the locking of bootloader) + (announcing the unlocking of bootloader) = more fanbois (or fangurls).

Well, they already released some devices with locked bootloaders as the Thunderbolt or the Incredible S. Cracking the Thunderbolt was pure luck, Incredible is not yet cracked.
So, if they decide to KEEP the locked loader, i'm done with htc... Sad but true
I really like their phones but without the community they are nothing...

I can't see why HTC would go in the opposite direction to SE. Will not buy another HTC if this happens. I'll get a SE instead.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using XDA Premium App

It'll be their own peril for going against the community.
Everyone knows a geek or two these days... And guess who people turn to when they want to buy a phone?

LeeDroid said:
Just thought I would dive in and drop a link for anyone that is yet to comment..
And yes, it does belong in the dev section
http://www.facebook.com/notes/htc/update-on-bootloaders/10150305151453084
Sent from my LeeDrOID loaded Desire HD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, did you "develop" their decision to think on their bootloader policy?
I believe this doesn't belong in development, as it isn't a development thread. However, I believe it is an IMPORTANT piece of info, it still doens't belong here.
Moved to General.

Handsets are subsidized. They have applications like amazon mp3 and sound hound for a reason.
Your carrier will edit the build with their own features and limitations.
The locked bootloader preserves these changes. An unlocked bootloader does not.
The sway of the modding community is minimal compared to the networks and people who pay for their software to be bundled.
if we see the end of locked bootloaders, then we will likely see an increase in purchase costs.

PartTimeLegend said:
Handsets are subsidized. They have applications like amazon mp3 and sound hound for a reason.
Your carrier will edit the build with their own features and limitations.
The locked bootloader preserves these changes. An unlocked bootloader does not.
The sway of the modding community is minimal compared to the networks and people who pay for their software to be bundled.
if we see the end of locked bootloaders, then we will likely see an increase in purchase costs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most users don't root and install custom roms, remove system apps, etc even though they often have handsets with which they can. For this reason I fail to understand what point you are trying to make. Most people just use their phone out of the box for 2-3 years or more.
Enthusiasts on the other hand will often upgrade annually as finance permits because of our love and passion for new technology. We are often the early adopters and we are the ones who end up paying the higher initial price on new products. This translates to frequent repeat sales at higher margin for the manufacturer.
Even though we are a small subset of the community, the value of our business is disproportionately high. We are the ones who care about unlocked bootloaders, not joe average who upgrades every 3 years to a model which is already several months old. If Htc doesn't want our business it is their choice, we will vote with our wallets and buy SE, Samsung or something else we can hack.
---
Sent from my Leedroid Gingerbread love machine.

PartTimeLegend said:
Handsets are subsidized. They have applications like amazon mp3 and sound hound for a reason.
Your carrier will edit the build with their own features and limitations.
The locked bootloader preserves these changes. An unlocked bootloader does not.
The sway of the modding community is minimal compared to the networks and people who pay for their software to be bundled.
if we see the end of locked bootloaders, then we will likely see an increase in purchase costs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would not even use such provider specific software. So they can't loose money when i install a custom ROM.

PartTimeLegend said:
Handsets are subsidized. They have applications like amazon mp3 and sound hound for a reason.
Your carrier will edit the build with their own features and limitations.
The locked bootloader preserves these changes. An unlocked bootloader does not.
The sway of the modding community is minimal compared to the networks and people who pay for their software to be bundled.
if we see the end of locked bootloaders, then we will likely see an increase in purchase costs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all I should say that I see your point in the reasons of locking the bootloader. But the people who want unlocked bootloaders will most likely go with another manufacturer and the software companies that subsidize the phones will make no provit from those people no matter what. Carriers subsidize also the open bootloader phones, so it seems that this issue doesn't matter to them too much. The truth is that compared to all the people who buy phones, those who actually use the unlocked bootloader are very small percentage. Like with the iPhone and jailbreaking. So the decision of whether to lock the bootloader or not is purely a "political" one.
I think that the best solution is to ship the phones with locked bootloaders and to provide an unlocking tool which will void irreversibly the warranty and support, which HTC have every right to do as once unlocked you can install potentially damaging kernels e.g. overclocking to unreasonable frequencies and they can decline supporting software that's not their own.

Have you guys seen how much agro HTC get on their Facebook page its hilarious.
Of course its a publicity stunt, they don't want to have a bad name with consumers. Sony Ericsson made the same annoucement last month which gave them a good name.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App

a petition has already gone up
http://www.groubal.com/htc-bootloaders-and-nand/

911sniper site gone ?

it just reloads googles home page ?

CheesyNutz said:
it just reloads googles home page ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yup, I had a feeling that would happen after the whole bootloader brewhaha

Well damn...... I'm sure it will pop back up (with a different name ofcourse)
Sent from "The EVO" using XDA Premium

When the site became 911htc.com I had a bad felling that that was going to happen, beacuse it makes it easy to be founded, and that was not a good idea, look at what happened months ago to some streaming sites...
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App

just tried to find to weasel my way in in case it's just the front page that is redirecting but can't find anything on there. It looks like Google in miami was the one hosting since it's showing their 404 message and they're redirecting to themselves. Whoever registered it knew what they were doing and were willing to spend a little money in order to cover their tracks.

xHausx said:
just tried to find to weasel my way in in case it's just the front page that is redirecting but can't find anything on there. It looks like Google in miami was the one hosting since it's showing their 404 message and they're redirecting to themselves. Whoever registered it knew what they were doing and were willing to spend a little money in order to cover their tracks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't know about that becuase for buying an .com you need to pay with you credit card so they will only know Who are you, so they will give that info to HTC if they asked...
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App

So why did it just vanish lol ? Some legal reason ?

well that blows......there goes getting system dumps......whois shows no owner information either......

reaper24 said:
So why did it just vanish lol ? Some legal reason ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you tell us and we will all know

Maybe the government applied it to the internet blacklist?
http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/protect_ip_sustain/?akid=669.278294.1DGqiU&rd=1&recurring=1&t=1

mattykinsx said:
Maybe the government applied it to the internet blacklist?
http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/protect_ip_sustain/?akid=669.278294.1DGqiU&rd=1&recurring=1&t=1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
naw, it looks like 911 took it down himself. His old blog disappeared at the same time.
Better get your proxy and IRC server lists ready if they try to block the internet.

Could be the result of receiving a "cease and desist" letter. But then again we can speculate all day and never know.

just chaneged the element

I hope he returns. Leaks help make ports!!!
I want leaks of ice cream for Evo 3d!!!
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

I don't understand why stuff like this happens...Doesn't any of these involved companies realize that leaks, insider info, and other "rougue" information serve to generate hype, and therefor increased interest in their products? Developers are working on THEIR phones, creating and enhancing THEIR crappy code...People get excited on rom drops and RUU leaks!
My Evo currently runs a Sense 3.0 rom, and even though the battery live is pretty lacking (even on extended battery!), I have had the fortunate opportunity to experience what the Evo 3D is going to be like, which changed my mind from keeping the Evo to pre-ordering the 3D, even before I know when the thing actually drops!

tallguywes said:
I don't understand why stuff like this happens...Doesn't any of these involved companies realize that leaks, insider info, and other "rougue" information serve to generate hype, and therefor increased interest in their products? Developers are working on THEIR phones, creating and enhancing THEIR crappy code...People get excited on rom drops and RUU leaks!
My Evo currently runs a Sense 3.0 rom, and even though the battery live is pretty lacking (even on extended battery!), I have had the fortunate opportunity to experience what the Evo 3D is going to be like, which changed my mind from keeping the Evo to pre-ordering the 3D, even before I know when the thing actually drops!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are negatives you're ignoring. How about the fact that some of those leaks have lead to phones bricking?

mattykinsx said:
There are negatives you're ignoring. How about the fact that some of those leaks have lead to phones bricking?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt they're worried about that, I'm sure they would be glad to brick a few phones through here as long as they catch it before it gets pushed out OTA. The whole having thousands upon thousands of people protesting and harassing you over a leaked ROM though. You already know it got the CEOs attention, and you can bet he's wanting to know why and how it happened.

tallguywes said:
I don't understand why stuff like this happens...Doesn't any of these involved companies realize that leaks, insider info, and other "rougue" information serve to generate hype, and therefor increased interest in their products? Developers are working on THEIR phones, creating and enhancing THEIR crappy code...People get excited on rom drops and RUU leaks!
My Evo currently runs a Sense 3.0 rom, and even though the battery live is pretty lacking (even on extended battery!), I have had the fortunate opportunity to experience what the Evo 3D is going to be like, which changed my mind from keeping the Evo to pre-ordering the 3D, even before I know when the thing actually drops!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
couple things you might want to consider here:
the percentage of people that get excited about ROM leaks is a very very small part of their user base.
and like matty mentioned, an unfinished code leak with possible very serious bugs does nothing to further their cause, or improve the final product. especially when they are used as ports.
in relation to this, and furthermore, I think it is a great mistake to undervalue and diminish the talents and efforts of the people writing the original source code for these ROMs by calling the work "crappy".
without any insult intended to anyones work here, less than half of the devs here are actually "writing" any code, or improving on the work of the original source writers on a base functional level. debatable, some are, but most are not. with a few exceptions, almost all of the fully functional (imho), awesome (imho) ROMs are based on finished work done by those same original coders.
when a leak drops for the Evo, if it has serious bugs, those bugs most often stay until a gold drops.
(haha, just my two cents. im fulla ****)
all that being said, I am saddened to see a great resource disappear.

What I fail to understand is why people STILL underestimate the power of the "small userbase" that you all seem to well, underestimate?
I said it once and I will say it again, we are the people who show off the stuff these upcoming phones can do by showing people the latest leak that got ported to our phones.
Not one person on this site can say they didn't have some sort of influence on the purchase of someone they know. I find that one hard to believe. and these companies know it. That's why they often do things like sale phones with unlocked bootloaders and such.

Govt. must be crackin down.. a few of the other bootlegger sites I tried to frequent this weekend were shutdown.