Database Users

Locked bootloaders...a new trend?

I read that the new Motorola Droid X and Droid 2 will have digitally signed bootloaders. Which means that only approved Motorola ROMS can be flashed. I wonder how long it will be before HTC and everyone else starts doing this? This could put an end to all of our fun! Of course the cellular providers will save a lot of money if they don't have to replace all of those bricked phones. It will be interesting to see what happens to the bootloader in future OTA and Froyo updates for the DInc...

this belongs in general

Lexus One said:
This could put an end to all of our fun!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will always be a cat and mouse game. Rarely ever ends. We always find another way around.

We should as a community all patition the cell phone companys for a truely open handset.

acezhi said:
We should as a community all patition the cell phone companys for a truely open handset.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Petitioning? What are you some kind of tree loving hippie? JK That **** never works though. Petitions, protesting, etc is for idiots who think it will accomplish something.
They are even stupider for locking these down. Sure people mess up phones trying to mod them. Now they are making ways for you to totally brick your phone. Don't they think more people will now make insurance claims even more if you try to mod your phone and mess it up.

Moved as not development.

reagianicparable said:
It will always be a cat and mouse game. Rarely ever ends. We always find another way around.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Possibly. But it takes a hell of a lot longer when you're up against encryption. You usually only win this battle if someone on the inside leaks the key. And by then there are new phones coming out and this keeps getting lower and lower on the priority list. Personally, I don't think we can win the encryption battle...

its not a new thing its a motorola thing... htc likes to give its buyers what they like.. and since we all like it a little different I dont see them locking their bootloader anytime soon... they made the nexus one which is the only true open source phone so far but they messed up on the marketing of it... all 3 phones you mention are motorola and the only htc phone I see with any kind of restriction would be the HTC aria on ATT cause you can't install 3rd party apps but that is due to ATT not HTC restrictions

two_cents said:
its not a new thing its a motorola thing... htc likes to give its buyers what they like.. and since we all like it a little different I dont see them locking their bootloader anytime soon... they made the nexus one which is the only true open source phone so far but they messed up on the marketing of it... all 3 phones you mention are motorola and the only htc phone I see with any kind of restriction would be the HTC aria on ATT cause you can't install 3rd party apps but that is due to ATT not HTC restrictions
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Granted, HTC *may* never lock their bootloader, but what is to stop Verizon from demanding it? Verizon is permitting it in the Motorola. What if this turns out to be a profit maximizer for them? Could HTC next? Time will tell...

I don't see locking up phones as a way to "make money" if anything it will alienate your customer/developer base and no one will buy the phones with the locked bootloaders. Especially if HTC doesn't trend up and continues to be a nice company. Motorola has already LOST A LOT of preorders on there Droid X because of the encrypted bootloader. Doesn't matter...they can't seem to keep them in stock anyway. Good riddens to a WAY to large handset with a crappy UI overlay.

What it boils down to is PROFIT. Verizon will weigh the revenues and decide with their pocketbooks. It doesn't make any difference whether HTC likes it or not. Verizon calls the shots. If HTC says no, they're gone. Samsung or LG or someone else will pick up the slack. As for losing customers, it doesn't matter. Money is what matters. Just ask any of our greed driven cellular companies if you don't believe me. Personally, I don't think there are that many people who re-flash their ROMS and would care if the bootloader is locked or not. I think we are a very small percentage of the total.

Honestly77 said:
I don't see locking up phones as a way to "make money" if anything it will alienate your customer/developer base and no one will buy the phones with the locked bootloaders. Especially if HTC doesn't trend up and continues to be a nice company. Motorola has already LOST A LOT of preorders on there Droid X because of the encrypted bootloader. Doesn't matter...they can't seem to keep them in stock anyway. Good riddens to a WAY to large handset with a crappy UI overlay.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you may be overestimating the percentage of android users who are interested in rooting their phones. Motorola will make a tiny bit less money on phone sales, but they will also lose less money on unnecessary replacements.

TNS201 said:
Petitioning? What are you some kind of tree loving hippie? JK That **** never works though. Petitions, protesting, etc is for idiots who think it will accomplish something.
They are even stupider for locking these down. Sure people mess up phones trying to mod them. Now they are making ways for you to totally brick your phone. Don't they think more people will now make insurance claims even more if you try to mod your phone and mess it up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just adding to it. Not saying petitioning and protesting would work, but:
Petitioning and protesting only work through fear. When it's you > the company, then the company will give in. If we have 20 thousand people say that we want truly open handsets, they still won't, because they know theres another hundred thousand that will still buy it. If they fear that if having a locked handset will make them no sales unless they give in, then they will.

Motorola tried leaving it unlocked with the Driod, but then, for whatever reasons, they locked the bootloader in the X. Why do you suppose Motorola would do this? Do they have incompetent marketing people? Remember they have the numbers...we don't. So we can only guess as to why they chose the way they did. Perhaps Verizon had something to do with it? I can't wait to see what they do to the bootloader in the next OTA for the DI.

Asterdroid said:
I think you may be overestimating the percentage of android users who are interested in rooting their phones. Motorola will make a tiny bit less money on phone sales, but they will also lose less money on unnecessary replacements.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with the notion that the vast majority of android users are not interested in rooting their phones; however, i think that the frequency with which carriers replace phones bricked due to customization is overestimated. I mean I have flashed customs ROMs, radios, recovery images, etc. onto my N1 and my DI dozens upon dozens of times and never run into a problem that couldn't be fixed with a battery pull and a restore (at the most). In contrast, I bricked three iphone 3GS's in six months while attempting to customize them. Obviously, apple is notorious for locking their **** down, so I am not convinced that the notion that verizon will have to replace fewer X's than, say, DI's holds water

To all who have preordered

Who of you are going to be pissed when / if you find out that, as the hardware is encrypted, you'll won't be able to put any roms on it? Under UK law at least, you won't have any justification to take it back for a refund.

i wont be pissed i just want a good new phone if its unlocked all the better...

MarkusPO said:
Who of you are going to be pissed when / if you find out that, as the hardware is encrypted, you'll won't be able to put any roms on it? Under UK law at least, you won't have any justification to take it back for a refund.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I purchase a phone it is done purely on the following:-
1. What hardware and software is currently available.
2. How it works in it's native form.
3. Whether or not the manufacturer supports the device.
Okay, two out of three's not bad and good enough for me but having an ability to alter/tamper outside of it's base/core never comes into it's purchase.
I'm sure this is what most people will purchase the phone for.
It's a great phone, simple as that.

What? Is the HW encrypted? What did I miss?

I'm with Beards on this one. It's a great phone and that's why I've pre-ordered one.

How is it possible to not care about locked bootloader? But i guess it won't be locked?

Arrghh nearly pre-ordered mine,
What's this about HW encryption??
Is he joking or being serious, I can't find anything
Sent from my MB525 using XDA Premium App

I'm pretty sure he's saying if you find this out, will you be mad? He's not saying it is true.

Who cares...this baby will be cracked open like a nut...and theres always a way to get back to stock if needed...chill out...we are gods here at xda hahaha..
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA Premium App

from the horses mouth itself: http://galaxys2.samsungmobile.com/html/feature.html

MarkusPO said:
from the horses mouth itself: http://galaxys2.samsungmobile.com/html/feature.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it locked down?
On Device Encryption
The Samsung GALAXY S II is the first Android smartphone to adopt powerful encrypted hardware, minimizing the use of security software and applying encryption technology to the hardware itself, greatly accelerating security protection and achieving superior performance.

I can not see why Samsung would care, they are selling hardware not software, so a open sgs2 will sell more.

DKMIK said:
I can not see why Samsung would care, they are selling hardware not software, so a open sgs2 will sell more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think wrong. i'm sure 75% of people buying it won't care. however if samsung can make a device that's locked down and secure and it catches on for this reason, it could tempt many large businesses to buy the s2 in hundreds if not thousands per company. that's going to add up to a lot of sales.

I don't know very much about ROM development etc. but couldn't it be that the encryption is totally transparent for accessing the ROM via "normal" software and only exists to protect the ROM against being built out and accessed manually?

this would be bs and i will be pissed.. it would probably mean no tweeking like deleting crap you dont need in system/app or replacing apps with tweeked version.. i may cancel my preorder

Sebring5 said:
Is it locked down?
On Device Encryption
The Samsung GALAXY S II is the first Android smartphone to adopt powerful encrypted hardware, minimizing the use of security software and applying encryption technology to the hardware itself, greatly accelerating security protection and achieving superior performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Encryption is something else than locking it down. Just wait ya'll...

Hardware encryption does not mean locked bootloader. Samsung has not yet commented about the bootloader locking status. I want to believe that it won't be locked because it is fighting against the whole idea of Android. If I want to do exactly what big brother says I will buy an iPhone.
If the bootloader is properly locked, we won't be able to open it even here in XDA. Motorola Atrix has a locked bootloader and you can go to the Atrix forum here and see yourself how many custom kernels there are. (None)

We all know the direction of Android is completely based on Google's whim, and it has become increasingly apparent that in order to stabilize and defragment their evergrowing and unwieldy ecosystem, they must set some standards and lock some things down. Google has already told phone manufacturers that future Android changes that the companies make must be approved by Google or they won't release early source code to devs who don't comply. They have realized they won't be able to compete with closed and stable systems like iOS, RIM, and WP7 with this "open" approach. What makes you think custom ROM from hacker A will get any blessings when the likes of Samsung or HTC will have to go through Google's scrutiny? I look forward to seeing more locked bootloaders.

It might be like that but as a customer I don't care about the "Being able to compete with iOS"-angle. If I can't modify my phone I am leaving it to shop. Maybe in the future the Google phones are the only ones without locked bootloaders.
Now that I think of it, the locked bootloader has nothing to do with the Android fragmentation. It only prevents developers to modify their phones. Phone manufacturers can still do their Touchwiz and Motoblur things. Maybe this locked bootloader thing has something to do with operators (especially in USA)?

In the UK, if you've preordered it online, there is an EU law on distance selling which covers internet purchases. This enables you to get a refund within 7 days. Whether you think it will be cracked after these 7 days will be up to you, but xda should provide an insight into how hard it will be to do upon release.
http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/distance-selling-regulations/

Want the bootloader keys? Lets all fight back!

To Motorola and for the rest of us,
I bought this phone originally because I read that the bootloader would be unlocked and I assumed fairly soon after. I, like most people, do not like motoblur. It is a slow, bloated, unfriendly interface that was forced upon me. Sadly, it is still forced upon me. So now that I thought I'd hold out and thought we'd get the keys, we didn't and it's too late to return this phone that had great promise.
What do I do now since I was dupped? I take away potential customers from Motorola. I've already convinced 3 of my friends not to get any of your phones and also a XOOM and who knows how many people they will tell my recommendations to?
You guys waste so much money on marketing and creating an image. This thing was suppose to blur the lines between computer and phone and you yourself are the ones who crippled that from being possible. Do you know what happens when you go to a sales agent at AT&T? They don't recommend the Atrix; a power user/person with knowledge of smartphones denies the customer from even considering it an option. Why would they do that? Because they know they can sell another phone that THEY like (easier to sell when you like it yourself) and they know the user won't come back and return against them, since they are paid commission.
Also, consider the demographic that probably bought this phone or considered it. They more than likely aren't the people who click 'Allow' when a website asks if it can install malware - those people bought iPhone's. The dual core CPU and webtop experience attracted the nerdier group - the power users and dev's - the exact people who don't want the limitations you put.
I know my post probably won't get heard by anyone important at moto but I know some of us owners/users/sympathizers will read this. The only thing I can hope is that we use the great tool we have and blog/tweet/status update/tell others. They won't listen to us, but they will listen to money. Take it away from them and they will listen.
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BUY MOTO! <---My facebook status and you should make it yours too!

kane4fire said:
To Motorola and for the rest of us,
I bought this phone originally because I read that the bootloader would be unlocked and I assumed fairly soon after. I, like most people, do not like motoblur. It is a slow, bloated, unfriendly interface that was forced upon me. Sadly, it is still forced upon me. So now that I thought I'd hold out and thought we'd get the keys, we didn't and it's too late to return this phone that had great promise.
Moto wasn't forced upon you. You bought the phone with a locked bootloader and Motoblur installed! Buying the phone was your decision!
What do I do now since I was dupped? I take away potential customers from Motorola. I've already convinced 3 of my friends not to get any of your phones and also a XOOM and who knows how many people they will tell my recommendations to?
Just because Motorola hasn't unlocked the bootloader in what is your timeframe doesn't constitute you being duped! Once again, you bought the phone knowing it had a locked bootloader and Motoblur!
You guys waste so much money on marketing and creating an image. This thing was suppose to blur the lines between computer and phone and you yourself are the ones who crippled that from being possible. Do you know what happens when you go to a sales agent at AT&T? They don't recommend the Atrix; a power user/person with knowledge of smartphones denies the customer from even considering it an option. Why would they do that? Because they know they can sell another phone that THEY like (easier to sell when you like it yourself) and they know the user won't come back and return against them, since they are paid commission.
No salesperson tried to prevent me buying mine. In fact, to the contrary, they gave me all the options. I, like you, chose to purchase the Atrix! A power user doesn't need the sales persons help to choose what they want!
Also, consider the demographic that probably bought this phone or considered it. They more than likely aren't the people who click 'Allow' when a website asks if it can install malware - those people bought iPhone's. The dual core CPU and webtop experience attracted the nerdier group - the power users and dev's - the exact people who don't want the limitations you put.
Dare I say it again..............you bought the phone knowing the bootloader was locked and Motoblur was on it! Everyone who has bought the Atrix and considers themselves a power user knows/knew the same things
I know my post probably won't get heard by anyone important at moto but I know some of us owners/users/sympathizers will read this. The only thing I can hope is that we use the great tool we have and blog/tweet/status update/tell others. They won't listen to us, but they will listen to money. Take it away from them and they will listen.
Sell your Atrix..........take your *****ing to another forum............and on your way out, don't let the doorknob hit ya where the good lord split ya!
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS WHINE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT A PRODUCT THEY BOUGHT KNOWING IT WASN'T WHAT THEY WANTED <---My facebook status and you should make it yours too!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above for my response to this!

*****ing about it will not accomplish anything and a large company such as Motorola wont be hurt by a few sales and honestly if I were your Facebook friend I would still buy this gadget, you know why? Its a great phone and there is still a chance that its bootloader will be unlocked eventually...just be patient.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

Actually, motorola explicitly stated they were going to unlock the bootloader from near the beginning - which was the reason I bought the phone. They used it as a selling point and they haven't addressed it at all...probably hoping it would be forgotten. Same thing with it being called a 4G phone, but it couldn't even attain 3G speeds up. They sold people on the idea that it would have the ability to access the fastest network speeds and people knew it didn't but still bought it. People *****ed, and now everyone (including your ungratefulness), got what they were told they were paying for.
A sales person may have not kept you, but it does happen more than in your case. As a matter of fact it happens fairly regularly. Usually a sales rep will lean towards one phone instead of another simply due to personal preference.
It is a great phone and great hardware without the ability to use it. This is a developers forum. If you don't want the ability to develop on this phone completely, why are you here? So you can seem all high and mighty? Maybe you're the one in the wrong forum or maybe you should just have a couple pitchers at a pub?
As far as a few sales not hurting it, that's not true at all. These phones aren't exactly flying off the shelves. As a matter of fact, this phone has a higher return rate than almost other smartphones. A returned phone costs much more overall than just not making a sale in the first place. The reason why they are going to do that is only because enough people are pissed about it that their current sales are hurting. They didn't spend money hiring people and R&D to create a locked bootloader if they didn't originally plan on keeping it locked for good.
You guys can tell people not to say anything or *****, but at the end of the day, you'll be the ones reaping the benefits of the people who did.

roharia said:
*****ing about it will not accomplish anything and a large company such as Motorola wont be hurt by a few sales and honestly if I were your Facebook friend I would still buy this gadget, you know why? Its a great phone and there is still a chance that its bootloader will be unlocked eventually...just be patient.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*****ing won't, but asking the right questions and showing that you are not the only one who is after this definitely gets some attention.
Kane4fire,
I really like your passion, it's just about making sure your message is heard and that you don't look like a troll.
Please look at some of the work I've been doing with Motorola, it's slow going but we are getting noticed.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/04/motorola-bootloader/
http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/26/motorola-promises-unlocked-bootloaders-for-future-android-phones/
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
http://www.facebook.com/unlockmoto
Cheers,
Irwin

Irwin, I have been seeing a lot of your work and group and etc. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced on them unlocking the bootloader for the Atrix since all the articles stated 'late 2011 releases' and the Atrix is early 2011.
The whole point of my post was for people who do post things and have some sort of a following to actually do something and post up as well on their own avenues. If you lose your dog, you don't just tell one or two people, you tell everyone and everything you can and it creates an exponential chain of people who end up knowing about it.
I personally know for a fact that at least in a small regional area they haven't done well with the XOOM and Atrix AT ALL and much of it actually has to do with Blur and it's problems with memory usage, battery life, and general lack of UI polish. I am sure that once the figures are out it will reflect how poorly they have been doing. It's a corporation and money is their motivator/reason for existence. I am sure if they hurt enough they will bow.

kane4fire said:
Irwin, I have been seeing a lot of your work and group and etc. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced on them unlocking the bootloader for the Atrix since all the articles stated 'late 2011 releases' and the Atrix is early 2011.
The whole point of my post was for people who do post things and have some sort of a following to actually do something and post up as well on their own avenues. If you lose your dog, you don't just tell one or two people, you tell everyone and everything you can and it creates an exponential chain of people who end up knowing about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely. I haven't ceased any of my activities since that PR mumbo jumbo they gave me.
I have a few contacts within Motorola that are being difficult to get a hold of, so I keep sending emails, I keep calling (international calls for me), I keep my facebook group going, I keep tweeting and spreading as far as I can.
I hope you also have similar luck in spreading the word and getting people to rally to the cause, just make sure not to dilute the message too much or get people opposed to you.
Good luck my friend, it's good to see the fire burns strong for you.

kane4fire said:
Irwin, I have been seeing a lot of your work and group and etc. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced on them unlocking the bootloader for the Atrix since all the articles stated 'late 2011 releases' and the Atrix is early 2011.
The whole point of my post was for people who do post things and have some sort of a following to actually do something and post up as well on their own avenues. If you lose your dog, you don't just tell one or two people, you tell everyone and everything you can and it creates an exponential chain of people who end up knowing about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to doubt your ability to read and understand the English language, but here is the actual quote:
“Motorola will enable an unlockable/relockable bootloader, currently found on Motorola Xoom, in future software releases where carrier and operator partners will allow it,” Motorola said in a statement provided to Wired.com. “It is our intention to include the unlockable/relockable bootloader in software releases starting in late 2011.”
Is the Atrix a software release? No. Maybe they will be pushing OTA updates starting in late 2011 which will allow for this.

knigitz said:
Not to doubt your ability to read and understand the English language, but here is the actual quote:
“Motorola will enable an unlockable/relockable bootloader, currently found on Motorola Xoom, in future software releases where carrier and operator partners will allow it,” Motorola said in a statement provided to Wired.com. “It is our intention to include the unlockable/relockable bootloader in software releases starting in late 2011.”
Is the Atrix a software release? No. Maybe they will be pushing OTA updates starting in late 2011 which will allow for this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, my mistake. I haven't been able to sleep. Either way, their choice of wording still doesn't mean they will actually provide the unlock since they have to convince the carrier to unlock it. I don't know what their terms were with AT&T, but why would they need permission to unlock a bootloader when it has nothing to do with the cellular network? AT&T is obviously going to say no on the matter since it means less possible anything for them to deal with. Then again I don't know. Maybe it was apart of the deal that they would lock the bootloader as a package to offer the phone on a particular network.

kane4fire said:
Well, my mistake. I haven't been able to sleep. Either way, their choice of wording still doesn't mean they will actually provide the unlock since they have to convince the carrier to unlock it. I don't know what their terms were with AT&T, but why would they need permission to unlock a bootloader when it has nothing to do with the cellular network? AT&T is obviously going to say no on the matter since it means less possible anything for them to deal with. Then again I don't know. Maybe it was apart of the deal that they would lock the bootloader as a package to offer the phone on a particular network.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neither you or any other Atrix owner is entitled to an unlocked bootloader from Motorola. Just saying: You're not. At the same time, you're well within your rights to crack it yourself, or just get a different phone.
Edit: I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice of Motorola to package a completely open bootloader with the Gingerbread update. It would.

This absolutely does have something to do with AT&T. The AT&T Atrix was "built" for AT&T. There are contractual agreements in place.
So if AT&T says no, that is the answer. If you want a phone with an unlocked bootloader (in this case) then you need to buy one that will be unlocked - either the carrier approved it, or maybe we see an unlocked phone that is not tied to a carrier.
If you buy an AT&T (or other carrier) branded phone, then you are going to be stuck with that carriers decisions.

chromedome00 said:
This absolutely does have something to do with AT&T. The AT&T Atrix was "built" for AT&T. There are contractual agreements in place.
So if AT&T says no, that is the answer. If you want a phone with an unlocked bootloader (in this case) then you need to buy one that will be unlocked - either the carrier approved it, or maybe we see an unlocked phone that is not tied to a carrier.
If you buy an AT&T (or other carrier) branded phone, then you are going to be stuck with that carriers decisions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You say that, but then again there are many other Android phones on AT&T that /do/ have an unlocked bootloader. Captivate, Aria, Inspire, galaxy tab and most likely the Infuse. So again, maybe AT&T doesn't care and its up to the manufacturers.
Sent from my screaming Atrix *4G* using the XDA App

I am lost......if bloatware and motoblur are the issues you have with the phone why not just get rid of or freeze the bloatware and try a different launcher or Ginger/grey blur? I haven't had to deal with motoblur for a while.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

kane4fire said:
To Motorola and for the rest of us,
For one you and hackers on here kill me most brands like moto don't make phone people to replace a bootloarer that's not in there mind in the board meeting.That being said they built a phone that a normal person can pick up and download apps from marketplace from its like buying a new 2011 car getting it home and dropping the motor and tranny the new car is ment to drive of the lot now im not saying I want my atrix bootloader locked cause I don't and my G2x is not unlocked but you can't strike against a large company like moto your little voices still mean nothing do them unless where on there board they care less.
I bought this phone originally because I read that the bootloader would be unlocked and I assumed fairly soon after. I, like most people, do not like motoblur. It is a slow, bloated, unfriendly interface that was forced upon me. Sadly, it is still forced upon me. So now that I thought I'd hold out and thought we'd get the keys, we didn't and it's too late to return this phone that had great promise.
What do I do now since I was dupped? I take away potential customers from Motorola. I've already convinced 3 of my friends not to get any of your phones and also a XOOM and who knows how many people they will tell my recommendations to?
You guys waste so much money on marketing and creating an image. This thing was suppose to blur the lines between computer and phone and you yourself are the ones who crippled that from being possible. Do you know what happens when you go to a sales agent at AT&T? They don't recommend the Atrix; a power user/person with knowledge of smartphones denies the customer from even considering it an option. Why would they do that? Because they know they can sell another phone that THEY like (easier to sell when you like it yourself) and they know the user won't come back and return against them, since they are paid commission.
Also, consider the demographic that probably bought this phone or considered it. They more than likely aren't the people who click 'Allow' when a website asks if it can install malware - those people bought iPhone's. The dual core CPU and webtop experience attracted the nerdier group - the power users and dev's - the exact people who don't want the limitations you put.
I know my post probably won't get heard by anyone important at moto but I know some of us owners/users/sympathizers will read this. The only thing I can hope is that we use the great tool we have and blog/tweet/status update/tell others. They won't listen to us, but they will listen to money. Take it away from them and they will listen.
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BUY MOTO! <---My facebook status and you should make it yours too!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App

Tylerjd said:
You say that, but then again there are many other Android phones on AT&T that /do/ have an unlocked bootloader. Captivate, Aria, Inspire, galaxy tab and most likely the Infuse. So again, maybe AT&T doesn't care and its up to the manufacturers.
Sent from my screaming Atrix *4G* using the XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^^^ If Moto scapegoats AT&T over this, it would not be good for business.

knigitz said:
Not to doubt your ability to read and understand the English language, but here is the actual quote:
“Motorola will enable an unlockable/relockable bootloader, currently found on Motorola Xoom, in future software releases where carrier and operator partners will allow it,” Motorola said in a statement provided to Wired.com. “It is our intention to include the unlockable/relockable bootloader in software releases starting in late 2011.”
Is the Atrix a software release? No. Maybe they will be pushing OTA updates starting in late 2011 which will allow for this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's rumored that Moto will be the manufacturer for the next generation Google Nexus branded device, which is supposedly to be released ~Q4 2011. Maybe this is what they are referring to. Who knows. All I do know is that quote from moto didn't say anything about the Atrix.
nucentury08 said:
For one you and hackers on here kill me most brands like moto don't make phone people to replace a bootloarer that's not in there mind in the board meeting.That being said they built a phone that a normal person can pick up and download apps from marketplace from its like buying a new 2011 car getting it home and dropping the motor and tranny the new car is ment to drive of the lot now im not saying I want my atrix bootloader locked cause I don't and my G2x is not unlocked but you can't strike against a large company like moto your little voices still mean nothing do them unless where on there board they care less.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Holy ****. Longest, most rambling sentence I've ever seen.

Other att phones have locked bootloaders but they where easily exploited. Htc and the other manufacturers are making them harder and harder to unlock. Att most likely is in contract with moto to keep it locked. With it locked they have more chances of making more money off the bloatware.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

knigitz said:
Neither you or any other Atrix owner is entitled to an unlocked bootloader from Motorola. Just saying: You're not. At the same time, you're well within your rights to crack it yourself, or just get a different phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, why should people who plunk down hundreds of dollars be able to do what they want with something they own?
the nerve of some people wanting to use their devices as they see fit.

jbe4 said:
yeah, why should people who plunk down hundreds of dollars be able to do what they want with something they own?
the nerve of some people wanting to use their devices as they see fit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You pay for the product, not the ability to tweak it to your heart's content. You don't see a $200 iPhone coming readily available to modify, do you? No. You have to jailbreak it first, if there's a jailbreak available.
As for kane's comment about motorola saying they'd unlock the bootloader from "near the beginning".... there was never such a statement that i've seen. I've seen stuff on the Motorola Owners Forum stating that a possible bootloader solution was being looked into... but nothing more than that. period.

elementaldragon said:
You pay for the product, not the ability to tweak it to your heart's content. You don't see a $200 iPhone coming readily available to modify, do you? No. You have to jailbreak it first, if there's a jailbreak available.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
by paying for the product I've paid to do what I want with it - If I want to use it as a way of leveling a kitchen chair thats my prerogative.
I think its just as patently offensive that Apple does it too
regardless, Android was/is billed as the Open Source alternative specifically to address the nonsense that is the itunes store and the draconian oversight of overbearing manufacturers. To have individual manufacturers go against the spirit of what google was/is trying to accomplish when they released AndroidOS seems just a bit ridiculous, dont you think?

HTC to re-consider bootloaders

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150305151453084&comments
Check that out. HTC is going to re-consider (unlocking) bootloaders! Great job on sending feedback to HTC !
If you dont have facebook account ill just paste what it says on official HTC page:
Update on Bootloaders
Author: HTC
Date: 25. May 2011 at 2:50
"Thanks so much for providing feedback, we hear your concerns. Your satisfaction is a top priority for us and we're working hard to ensure you have great experiences with our phones. We're reviewing the issue and our policy around bootloaders and will provide more information soon. Thank you for your interest, support and willingness to share your feedback."

the power of comunity

I hope they are serious about it and this not just a statement to please all. I would like my next phone to be an HTC since I am still not attracted by Samsung....

See my Sig
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using XDA App

brilldoctor said:
See my Sig
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://wakeuphtc.blogspot.com/ check that out, I think its better to send personal letters to HTC than just to get some names in xda thread...

Yes they might be serious about that. This thing might be seriously effecting their sales of sensation, evo 3d, desire s, wildfire s, and other newer devices.
And there is another chance that they might be unlocking the newer devices alone keeping the older devices locked. Even if they have the opinion of unlocking every device, i think they will unlock the newer devices first to make the sales.
But i think these statements are not confirmative untill the devices are unlocked.

They are thinking about - but what are they doing?
should this ever happen to wildfire?
how long will this take?

Buldog said:
They are thinking about - but what are they doing?
should this ever happen to wildfire?
how long will this take?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the statement, all info is there. If its not there, we dont know it

I read this on Facebook and this is good news indeed. I hope them "considering" means that steps will actually be taken.

Frankly, why would they do THAT?
People who have already bought a locked phone are not going to buy a new one when theirs get unlocked now, are they? No more money for HTC.
Unprotected bootloader means that bricked phones returns will increase. HTC will have to spend to replace these.
It makes no commercial sense to do so, as the people needing unlocked bootloaders represent, let's face it, a minority.
It would be nice, but pigs might fly before we see an official unlocked HBOOT.

n!k said:
Frankly, why would they do THAT?
People who have already bought a locked phone are not going to buy a new one when theirs get unlocked now, are they? No more money for HTC.
Unprotected bootloader means that bricked phones returns will increase. HTC will have to spend to replace these.
It makes no commercial sense to do so, as the people needing unlocked bootloaders represent, let's face it, a minority.
It would be nice, but pigs might fly before we see an official unlocked HBOOT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unlocked bootloaders means that developers will work with HTC phones. Customers, who are developers, are better than those, who will use the phone just for calling etc.

I disagree with you.
I am sure that any developer who really wants to unlock their bootloader will have done so by now.
Unlocking the HBOOTs for the general public means that idiots (like me) are more likely to flash the wrong ROM (which I did) not because they are THAT stupid but because the choice of ROMs is wide enough to make a mistake, and the advice that is found on the internet forums is often confusing or misleading.
Frankly, I think that there is no need to unlock HBOOT / S-OFF as long as there is enough room for people to experiment in a non-destructive way with a functional recovery and the ability to flash custom firmwares. And to go back to stock.
But then it opens the world of the latest version of Android working on phones that were not meant for it; people would stick to their phone longer, which cannot be good for business.
For me, this statement by HTC is merely a way to say to their customers "Don't leave us for another brand with unlocked bootloaders", even though they clearly have no intention of unlocking the HBOOT.
Time will tell

n!k said:
I am sure that any developer who really wants to unlock their bootloader will have done so by now.
Frankly, I think that there is no need to unlock HBOOT / S-OFF as long as there is enough room for people to experiment in a non-destructive way with a functional recovery and the ability to flash custom firmwares. And to go back to stock.
People who have already bought a locked phone are not going to buy a new one when theirs get unlocked now, are they? No more money for HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
---It is not like all the developers are capable of unlocking the bootloader. Most of the developers will be tinkering with the apps and other os related software like themes, roms, kernels etc., . No one knows how many developers are working on wildfire root. There is a possibility that a developer who works on apps might have little/nil knowledge on how to unlock bootloader (and other security related things). And most of these developers might be using the developers phones like nexus s which are unlocked by default. And to my knowledge, all the wildfire developers must be aware (even in november 2010) that official froyo update to wildfire makes it hard to root. So, mostly as i expect developers will not be updating the phone and taking the risk. SORRY, i didn't mean to be disrespectful with developers. I will also not update to official froyo and take the risk if i were a developer before (but im not).
---Their motive in locking the hboot is to destroy the freedom of rooting and flashing custom recoveries. I dont think they will give an option like to flash the custom recoveries in a non destructive way. And that going back to the stock (from the phone itself) might require some additional protected phone space, which matters because wildfire has low phone memory. I never expect them to s-off my phone. I will be satisfied if they unlock the bootloader and give me an option to flash custom recovery. [And if i think that s-off as a serious issue, then i might go with the future alpharev or the paid xtc clip or some other future solutions if any.]
---And people will not buy a new phone from htc if they get unlocked by htc now. And will people buy a new locked phone from htc if theirs present phone is kept locked. In any way it affects htc. But it makes a difference if htc unlocks the newer phones and keeps the old phones locked.

n!k said:
Frankly, why would they do THAT?
People who have already bought a locked phone are not going to buy a new one when theirs get unlocked now, are they? No more money for HTC.
Unprotected bootloader means that bricked phones returns will increase. HTC will have to spend to replace these.
It makes no commercial sense to do so, as the people needing unlocked bootloaders represent, let's face it, a minority.
It would be nice, but pigs might fly before we see an official unlocked HBOOT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it makes commercial sense to so. If HTC wants us to buy HTC phones ever again, they should unlock it.

Htc and developers?

I currently own the galaxy s3 and am thinking about buying the htc one. One major thing that would influence my decision would be how htc is on supporting developers. Samsung has been known not to provide proper sources or whatever needed for aosp roms etc and that is something I have always hated about the s3. I was wondering if HTC does the same with their phones.

Jinsuke32 said:
I currently own the galaxy s3 and am thinking about buying the htc one. One major thing that would influence my decision would be how htc is on supporting developers. Samsung has been known not to provide proper sources or whatever needed for aosp roms etc and that is something I have always hated about the s3. I was wondering if HTC does the same with their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC does support developers in terms of having bootloader unlock. As you can see, the Android development section has many roms. BUT they are often late with kernel sources (as every company seems to be nowdays unfortunalety).
Compared to Samsung, HTC doesn't use their own processors, but rather Qualcomm's, which had much less problems staying GPL-compliant, plus they have Codeaurora, where processor-specific bugs get fixed quite fast.
If you want it, you should probably get it, as there is no sign of Samsung or HTC's policies changing.

Jinsuke32 said:
I currently own the galaxy s3 and am thinking about buying the htc one. One major thing that would influence my decision would be how htc is on supporting developers. Samsung has been known not to provide proper sources or whatever needed for aosp roms etc and that is something I have always hated about the s3. I was wondering if HTC does the same with their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unlocked bootloader doesn't mean S-OFF, for this to come back, there are 2 solutions: To pray and to hope!
f.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

If you want to see how HTC relates to the developer community, go to the HTC Vivid forum and poke around a lot of the older threads. That will tell you *everything* you need to know.
It took us forever to get S-OFF, and if you don't know what that means, it is an extra layer of security added to the phone that prevents you from flashing a boot.img from outside of fastboot. It also prevents you from flashing a radio, period. We had to physically short out a connector on the phones circuit board to achieve S-OFF and that only happened about a year after the phone's release. Being S-ON is extremely annoying...extremely.
I believe there were major problems getting anything CM-based to work on this phone for quite some time due to HTC embedding code that prevented customization. I believe it had something to do with the RIL or in-call volume or something. You'd have to look it up. It was a nightmare.
HTC has been recently pulling their RUUs off of 3rd party websites and threatening legal action against the site owners. That should tell you enough right there.
Suffices to say, HTC is terrible when it comes to their relationship with the dev community. So in the end, its all about what you want. If you get the One, you'll have to deal with the typical HTC bull**** that we have all had to deal with. If you get a Samsung with an Exynos, you'll have to deal with their typical bull****.
Sent from my HTC Vivid.

Totally not true. The short circuit thingy to S-Off was way back 2011. On the One Series there's no need for those.
Also there's only 1 site that HTC took down and it's htcruu.com. The only reason why the took that down is because the site is using HTC's name & logo and obviously it does make sense.
In fact the ruu database is now again up and running and also fully intact here
http://androidfiles.org/ruu/
slapdaddy said:
If you want to see how HTC relates to the developer community, go to the HTC Vivid forum and poke around a lot of the older threads. That will tell you *everything* you need to know.
It took us forever to get S-OFF, and if you don't know what that means, it is an extra layer of security added to the phone that prevents you from flashing a boot.img from outside of fastboot. It also prevents you from flashing a radio, period. We had to physically short out a connector on the phones circuit board to achieve S-OFF and that only happened about a year after the phone's release. Being S-ON is extremely annoying...extremely.
I believe there were major problems getting anything CM-based to work on this phone for quite some time due to HTC embedding code that prevented customization. I believe it had something to do with the RIL or in-call volume or something. You'd have to look it up. It was a nightmare.
HTC has been recently pulling their RUUs off of 3rd party websites and threatening legal action against the site owners. That should tell you enough right there.
Suffices to say, HTC is terrible when it comes to their relationship with the dev community. So in the end, its all about what you want. If you get the One, you'll have to deal with the typical HTC bull**** that we have all had to deal with. If you get a Samsung with an Exynos, you'll have to deal with their typical bull****.
Sent from my HTC Vivid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

So you mean that we wont get any source codes from htc like samsung?
Because of the lack of sources many sgs3 devs left all development for the sgs4.
And when there isint any source codes the cm10.1 roms will never be fully functional
Thats a shame
So dose of you who plans to have cm10.1 fully working should look somewhere else

People at htc are trying their best to release source code quicker and complete. They are already starting by selling the developer phone. But I have spoken to people at htc and there are people working there who are keen to get source code out on time.
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app

So i can buy a s4 because its qualcoom now who provides source codes dont they?

Riyal said:
Totally not true. The short circuit thingy to S-Off was way back 2011. On the One Series there's no need for those.
Also there's only 1 site that HTC took down and it's htcruu.com. The only reason why the took that down is because the site is using HTC's name & logo and obviously it does make sense.
In fact the ruu database is now again up and running and also fully intact here
http://androidfiles.org/ruu/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally very true. Anybody who owns a Vivid must short out a contact point on the main board to achieve S-OFF. Just because you don't have to do this on last year's One line of phones doesn't mean you won't have to in the future. I was using this experience as an example of how difficult HTC has been with the developer community as of late. It seems you've missed the point of my argument entirely.
Again, your argument doesn't quite make a lot of sense here either. You're saying that HTC took down a dev website due to the website using their name and logo? If HTC went that far to just get them to stop using their name and logo, ie. threatening legal action and forcing them to shut down, that's like using a nuclear missile to kill an ant. And that shows how dev-unfriendly HTC has become.
Any way you look at it, HTC is becoming less and less friendly to the development community. Samsung is the same way. You can pick your poison there. If you want a dev-friendly phone, get a Sony.
bariz143 said:
So i can buy a s4 because its qualcoom now who provides source codes dont they?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like I said, Samsung has its own issues with source codes, etc. I'm not sure how the GS4 with the Snapdragon chip will play out with the dev community because its only now becoming even remotely available to consumers. And yes, Qualcomm does release its sources, but there might be other limiting factors.
My best advice would be to wait, if at all possible. Give it a month or two and see how development across these devices is progressing, then make your decision.

ste1164 said:
People at htc are trying their best to release source code quicker and complete. They are already starting by selling the developer phone. But I have spoken to people at htc and there are people working there who are keen to get source code out on time.
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is one thing I never got, and I chalk it up to a mixture of stupidity and inefficiency. It's too easy to get source out. Get a working, master local copy on your servers (don't host this in the cloud yet since it's still in development). As soon as they release the device, upload to a source repository, either home made or something like github. And you're done.
slapdaddy said:
Totally very true. Anybody who owns a Vivid must short out a contact point on the main board to achieve S-OFF. Just because you don't have to do this on last year's One line of phones doesn't mean you won't have to in the future. I was using this experience as an example of how difficult HTC has been with the developer community as of late. It seems you've missed the point of my argument entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would hardly classify a device made almost two years ago as their current policy. Android development has been slowly (or not so slowly) increasing. And HTC has generally been getting better it, but obviously not perfect. That's one of the reasons they released htcdev.com which the Vivid has a listing for.
slapdaddy said:
Again, your argument doesn't quite make a lot of sense here either. You're saying that HTC took down a dev website due to the website using their name and logo? If HTC went that far to just get them to stop using their name and logo, ie. threatening legal action and forcing them to shut down, that's like using a nuclear missile to kill an ant. And that shows how dev-unfriendly HTC has become.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Trying to remember off the top of my head and only with three hours of sleep, so I apologize for any inaccuracies. They took it down because they thought people would think it was affiliated with HTC. They allowed the owner to bring it back, as long as it said they were not affiliated, and so long as he didn't mess with their RUUs, but just hosting is fine. Overkill (and developer unfriendlieness) would have been not letting him bring it back.
slapdaddy said:
Any way you look at it, HTC is becoming less and less friendly to the development community. Samsung is the same way. You can pick your poison there. If you want a dev-friendly phone, get a Sony.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never messed with a Sony, but if you want the dev-friendliest, go for a Nexus.
slapdaddy said:
My best advice would be to wait, if at all possible. Give it a month or two and see how development across these devices is progressing, then make your decision.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And that's my plan. That and wait to see if true S-OFF is achieved, and if Koush picks one up.

slapdaddy said:
Totally very true. Anybody who owns a Vivid must short out a contact point on the main board to achieve S-OFF. Just because you don't have to do this on last year's One line of phones doesn't mean you won't have to in the future. I was using this experience as an example of how difficult HTC has been with the developer community as of late. It seems you've missed the point of my argument entirely.
Again, your argument doesn't quite make a lot of sense here either. You're saying that HTC took down a dev website due to the website using their name and logo? If HTC went that far to just get them to stop using their name and logo, ie. threatening legal action and forcing them to shut down, that's like using a nuclear missile to kill an ant. And that shows how dev-unfriendly HTC has become.
Any way you look at it, HTC is becoming less and less friendly to the development community. Samsung is the same way. You can pick your poison there. If you want a dev-friendly phone, get a Sony.
Like I said, Samsung has its own issues with source codes, etc. I'm not sure how the GS4 with the Snapdragon chip will play out with the dev community because its only now becoming even remotely available to consumers. And yes, Qualcomm does release its sources, but there might be other limiting factors.
My best advice would be to wait, if at all possible. Give it a month or two and see how development across these devices is progressing, then make your decision.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your vivid was at&t's fault. Not HTC. At&t always locks there phones down. For example. The one x. The international version could be bootloader unlocked and rooted right away. At&t took steps to block htcdev from unlocking bootloaders for there devices. Those guys had to jump thru hoops to get unlocked. A friend if mine had to wait several months before someone cracked it. In general. At&t & Verizon are the worlds worst at hurting developers. I tend to buy unlocked phones to avoid such problems. Source is the same as any company. It comes when it comes. I wish all companies released source like Google does. Right before the release.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium

Im sure s-off should be achieved soon, like recent htc phones such as droid dna and one x etc..
ive been having both samsung and htc devices.. i feel htc has better developent than samsung in terms of less bugs and more close to aosp etc.. and gets better roms for sure