Database Users

Update on current issues(FPS and Screen) with the EVO. (Email from HTC)

I just got a response from HTC regarding an email that I sent that had to do with pretty much all of the EVO's issues, grounded screen, fps, etc. I'd like to attach the email, however their is a confidentiality Note at the end of it stating that I could get into some legal trouble if I share it with others...Not exactly sure how that works, but I don't want any problems so i'll just sum up what was said.
Regarding the screen issues, I was told that they are under investigation and changes have been made and they are researching any other changes that may be necessary. He said they do have software updates coming out soon but he couldn't specify the exact date... so from all this I assume that within the next month or so all screen issues will be resolved. Their will be an update that takes care of the grounding issues and newer model EVOs wont have issues with the screen coming out of place..
Anybody holding out on the EVO because of its screen problems just wait a month and most likely it will be good.
As for the FPS cap, all he did was confirm that it was a hardware limitation and that they are aware that it has an impact on gaming performance. However, he also stated that they have reports of the FPS rate causing sluggish screen responses (which in all honesty, it doesn't) but they haven't been able to replicate....He did't address as to whether or not any changes would be made or not..
I think that it is finally safe to say beyond a reasonable doubt that the fps cap is hardware related, no more need to waste time over whether it is or isn't. I don't know much about phone development, so i'm not sure if you can remove the cap if it's hardware related, but I assume since HTC was testing to see if it had any effect on the overall performance of the device and since they were trying to replicate any issues the cap might have caused, then that might be a signal that it is fixable. Why would they even worry about it otherwise?
I just wanted to update you all because I know a lot of EVO users have been having numerous concerns. I started a new thread because all of the previous ones are becoming to overcrowded with egomaniacs.
hope this helps even the least bit.
P.S the email that I received actually seemed to be very genuine and wasn't nearly as generic as most of the previous emails many of us have been receiving.

yeah we really needed another thread on this.

starplaya93 said:
I think that it is finally safe to say beyond a reasonable doubt that the fps cap is hardware related
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Dude, no. We won't know for sure until more research is done and the kernel source is released. Everything else is pure speculation.
As for the responses, you apparently got the same canned responses people have been getting on the other thread. I'm not sure if creating a whole new thread for this was necessary.

well the person I emailed was the HTC product support manager and he and htc in general have no reason to lie about it being a hardware issue. It doesn't save nor create any extra hassle for them if they lie to us. We are their customers and the EVO is their product, they know it best... So being that THEY HAVE NO REASON TO LIE TO US, we can conclude what both sprint and HTC managers have told us about the cap is true...
and I didn't post this thread to necessarily be a replacement for the other, I just wanted a fresh start so I people could avoid reading through all of the useless bickering and get updated.
No hostility is necessary, I was just simply trying to do the members of this forum a favor.

starplaya93 said:
he and htc in general have no reason to lie about it being a hardware issue
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Um, yeah they could lie... And have a really good reason to. Imagine if they told you it was a software issue, would you back off? But your willing to back off if it is a hardware limitation.
HTC has lied to us before. I want to say Mogul with the GPS chip, but I don't remember which phone it was. So many ROMs and phones ago..

HTC LIE?!?! ROFL. Everyday that goes by they're breaking the law by not releasing the Kernel Source for every phone they have out...
HTC is above the law and the truth.

VoXHTC said:
HTC LIE?!?! ROFL. Everyday that goes by they're breaking the law by not releasing the Kernel Source for every phone they have out...
HTC is above the law and the truth.
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There's a law requiring them to release a kernal source? Considering how out of touch the legal system is with technology, I can't imagine that.
This sucks if it is hardware though. It doesn't explain the 60fps boot-up stuff though, usually hardware is hardware, if it can do 60fps at all, it should be able to do it within the OS with the proper drivers/etc.
It's just like the AT&T Tilt when they claimed the phone didn't have the "hardware" to do the 3d. When it turned out (if I recall) they were just too cheap to buy the drivers from Broadcom and co.
I can't help but think that maybe this is a hold-back feature (limiting 3d gaming) simply so they can release an almost identical phone (different shell, model. carrier?) 6 months down the road as "new" without doing much R&D on it. It's a tactic that Apple has thrived with for years on their iPhone.

KyleK29 said:
There's a law requiring them to release a kernal source? Considering how out of touch the legal system is with technology, I can't imagine that.
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Short answer: Yes. Many companies have successfully been sued for millions for not complying with the GPL license. This isn't much of a "technology" issue as it is a licensing issue.

MordyT said:
I want to say Mogul with the GPS chip, but I don't remember which phone it was. So many ROMs and phones ago..
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Yeah- When Sprint first released the Mogul (PPC-6800), they said the GPS would not be available for use. The Internal GPS was locked blah blah blah, then HTC released a firmware that unlocked the GPS along with Rev A and other stuff.
Wow, that was... 3 years ago now??

Aridon said:
yeah we really needed another thread on this.
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Yeah, that was assholish

KyleK29 said:
There's a law requiring them to release a kernal source? Considering how out of touch the legal system is with technology, I can't imagine that.
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Yes, they agreed to the GPL by using the linux kernel. Nowhere in the GPL does it say 'you can release your modified source whenever you feel like it, as long as you do it EVENTUALLY.' HTC is violating the GPL every second that the kernel source remains unreleased.

Also, this whole hardware/software based cap issue is tending to be rather heated. People just need to chill. It all boils down to, noone has any proof that it is either hardware or software based.
There are many interpretations from that HTC email that you talked about in the OP. My personal interpretation is that there was a hardware limitation that caused them to create a software based cap on the framerate. Which would still imply that it was a hardware limitation, but the only solution they could come up with at the time was to cap the framerate. Now I could be wrong, but that is how I take the vagueness of their responses.
Keep in mind too, these are their customer service emails. They aren't going to go into detail with you about why they did what they did and how they did it. They are just going to try to make you feel like you got as much info as you needed to remain satisfied.

F**k em
People are you flippin serious ? We overclock our hardware all the time with software . Even hardware ( the screen) has software. We just need the kernel source and asop Rom. We overdrive our lcd's from 60 to 75 and even 90fps on laptops. Iam sure we will drain battery and gain more heat.

The Droid Incredible is the same hardware minus the different screen and it does not have that issue. The cpu/gpu is the same. So the screen is the only thing it could be hardware and there is no way they put a 30hz screen. If the screen was 30hz they would have to put a software cap on the gpu to lock it at 30fps to match the screen. Then why if thats the case are some people getting higher then 30fps when the screen is off? It should always be at 30fps no matter what. I think they put a software cap to save battery and they got caught with their pants down. I bet they didnt think people would find out so quick and was hoping this would give them time to fix battery life issues. I read somewhere that 4g is a tack on patch on 2.1 and the 4g isn't really supported until 2.2 (Froyo). Thats kinda why 4g eats the battery so bad.
The only other thing it could be is because of the Hdmi, i will go into that one later.

Here's another response I got from HTC:
Thank you for your reply. Your feedback is very important to us. The touch screen is pressure sensitive. For example, by applying direct focused pressure, and swiping your finger in quick strokes, the pages will scroll more quickly. If you apply, light pressure, and scroll lightly, the pages will not scroll as fast. It takes time to get to know the device, but hopefully, these tips will help you better navigate on the device. Since the HTC EVO 4G employs a unique HDMI output to deliver video in HD quality to an external display, the hardware graphics driver interface on the HTC EVO 4G uses significant resources for the HDMI output and therefore displays graphics at 30 frames per second on the integrated display. This is hardware, and not software, limitation. It’s important to keep in mind that content including most movies and television, are created to run at between 24 and 30 frames per second. The 30FPS is a hardware limitation. We have found that some games may be impacted by this limitation. Thank you again for contacting HTC. I appreciate the time you have taken, to share your experience with us today. I want to apologize for any inconveniences you may have experienced. In order to help improve our service I’d like to invite you to take a survey at http://survey.htc.com/worldwide

I ask about the FPS and this is the response that I got from HTC
Dear -----------------,
Dear Mr(s) ------------------- Thanks for contacting our Technical Support center, where we will give you the best service's quality and the answers for all your questions. Right now we know about this issues with this models nad we are working in order to launch a hot-fix to solve it, as soon as we launch it you will be able to donwload it from our website, thanks for all you information, we recommend you visit regularly the htc page for new updates www.htc.com/www, click on support,select your phone and click on download software.

roybotnik said:
Yes, they agreed to the GPL by using the linux kernel. Nowhere in the GPL does it say 'you can release your modified source whenever you feel like it, as long as you do it EVENTUALLY.' HTC is violating the GPL every second that the kernel source remains unreleased.
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Exactly, we get engadget, etc to cover the 30fps cap but there is very little coverage on the GPL violations. We won't get any straight answers on these issues until the source is released, that is what we should be pushing for.

Oh well... I just gave you guys my interpretation on the situation. Everybody has their two cents and thats fine, lets just all agree to disagree... If the devs here have been busting their ass's to fix the cap and have got nothing, then thats just more proof that it is a hardware cap...
In the end it won't matter I suppose. when htc releases the kernel, regardless if its a software or hardware cap, we should be able to fix it.
We should all just wait it out and see what happens. The phone hasn't even been out for a month. Patience is a virtue I suppose...

It's getting pretty obvious that it's a hardware cap. With that said, why on earth would they do a hardware cap just for hdmi when most people will never even use it once? It's not like we'll use hdmi every minute of every day. Bad decision on HTC's part. "Hey, let's take away 50% of the graphics power and put it into hdmi, even though people won't use it everyday or even ever."
Sorry but as a programmer/developer I'm not happy with this, do you know how much code we'd have to add/change for a gimped EVO? I planned on developing some apps for android, but now I have to make special versions for the evo because of hardware fps caps... or I could just say "Because of hardware fps issues, it doesn't work with EVO, sorry EVO users!" I'm definitely not gonna program all my games and graphics applications to run at 30fps when everyone is running at 60fps, except the gimped EVO.
I'll be exploring other options like the droid x, droid 2, galaxy s.
Thanks HTC!

The phone has been out for two weeks. Lack of development on something we need the source code on to fix means jack ****.
Many device have too wait longer just for root much less anything significant.

G2 rootkit, prevents any permenant modification.

Just as the title stated Gizmodo has an article on how g2 revert to stock after reboot. This makes me feel better about owning a vibrant because of samsung lackluster support. Anyway, the point of this thread is about the " root kit" and your thought, discussion, etc
I personally think this is a low blow on htc part, especially looking at their track record with android.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Edit: now I have access to a computer here's the link to article (which summarize and link back what is already here at G2 forum, haha)
http://gizmodo.com/5656921/t+mobiles-g2-rootkit-will-reinstall-stock-android-after-a-jailbreak
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they apparently can't even remove bloatware as it reinstalls upon reboot

Unfortunately locking down android phones is an inevitability. As more and more people transition their daily net use to smartphones so will the purveyors of malware. Making it more difficult to root is a necessary evil. The g2 has a backdoor otherwise there'd be no way to ota updates. It will be discovered. Though it might take more time than the couple of days the phone has been available. Relax
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

masterotaku said:
Unfortunately locking down android phones is an inevitability. As more and more people transition their daily net use to smartphones so will the purveyors of malware. Making it more difficult to root is a necessary evil. The g2 has a backdoor otherwise there'd be no way to ota updates. It will be discovered. Though it might take more time than the couple of days the phone has been available. Relax
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
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I agreed that the developers here will have no problem figuring out the backdoor as they are awesome. However, one can not ignore the fact that HTC which is known to promote customization, decided to install this type of "rootkit". Malware is inevitable which is why Google needs to step up their game, being "OPEN" does not mean no intervention of any sort. Simply looking through the app for malware while not irrationally rejecting App would bring a much needed safety net.
Makes me wonder if it is T-Mobile who requested the system to be put in place.

Its more accurate to say that HTC has been in the game longer with popular android handsets than deliberately having been more open than others. It might seem a tad ironic given the level of impatience with Samsung over updates and whatnot but they have been far more open with the galaxy s than pretty much any other manufacturer and any other phone....HTC included...
If its any consolation the non Tmobile version of this phone seems to have the same restrictions.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

IF this is true, and I step back from being a fan of Android, it actually makes sense.
With Android, as with any consumer electronic product, "power-users" are a small percentage of total users. Applying this truth to Android, I think you can extrapolate out that manufacturers, don't want power-users causing all kinds of support nightmares (like bricking their phones and returning them as defective), so they start increase the effort required to do power-user type things.
I prefer to look at it in practical terms as the manufacturers saying, "If you want to do developer type things, you need to get developer type hardware."
It sux because the developer device won't ever be able to "keep up with the Joneses" as far as coolness factor. However, if you just reference all of the posts of people doing stuff the manufacturer did not intend for them to do, then claiming their phone was defective, and getting a new one, the manufacturers are almost forced into doing stuff like this.

Now you mentioned it, it was really easy to root and modify the phone compare to other phones "traditional" methods.
It is understandable of why people (myself included) were anxious of Samsung as they have horrible update history compare to HTC or Motorola in recent times. If Samsung can push out their update in a more timely manner, I wouldn't put it pass myself to say that Galaxy S is the best android phone on the market.
Perhaps the rollback is due to internal bugs similar to the storage issues G2 is having as well which is possible considered that a messaged up storage would not keep the changes made.

i'm sure this rootkit won't be a problem for long.

funeralthirst said:
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7089/whatrootkit.jpg
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the what rootkit image was a joke per chris.
the problem with this is that there was recently a ruling that jailbreaking your device is legal - this move is in direct violation to the DCMA ruling.

byt3b0mb said:
the what rootkit image was a joke per chris.
the problem with this is that there was recently a ruling that jailbreaking your device is legal - this move is in direct violation to the DCMA ruling.
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i know it was a joke, which is why i took down the link. but it was funny.
this isn't a violation, though. the act of jailbreaking/rooting a phone is legal, but that doesn't mean manufacturers can't try and restrict/prevent people from doing it.

devcurious said:
IF this is true, and I step back from being a fan of Android, it actually makes sense.
With Android, as with any consumer electronic product, "power-users" are a small percentage of total users. Applying this truth to Android, I think you can extrapolate out that manufacturers, don't want power-users causing all kinds of support nightmares (like bricking their phones and returning them as defective), so they start increase the effort required to do power-user type things.
I prefer to look at it in practical terms as the manufacturers saying, "If you want to do developer type things, you need to get developer type hardware."
It sux because the developer device won't ever be able to "keep up with the Joneses" as far as coolness factor. However, if you just reference all of the posts of people doing stuff the manufacturer did not intend for them to do, then claiming their phone was defective, and getting a new one, the manufacturers are almost forced into doing stuff like this.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that HTC didn't want it, but T-Mobile did. They removed tethering from the 2.2 build. They know that the first thing that rooters do is install tethering software to their Android devices. So yeah, TMO prolly asked HTC to block root so that people wouldn't be tethering all the time.
On 7.2 devices, that wasn't a big issue, but the G2 can theoretically get up to twice as fast as our Vibrants, and with TMO only using 10mhz or so for their HSPA+ deployments, they're probably concerned with too much tethering hurting network performance.

I love how the arguments on that website keep pointing to how its going to ruin android and how android is open source. Last time I checked Android is an operating system not hardware. Either T-mobile locked it or HTC. I'm going to bet like everybody else that its T-Mobiles doing.
The only thing its going to do honestly is piss off future buyers and they will either avoid that phone or wait for it to be rooted. When the G1 came out I waited until it was rooted then I bought. Vibrant I waited until it was confrimed to be rooted. Of course that was nearly before it hit the market so I bought nearly the day it was available.
So T-Mobile I hope you don't mind loosing sales on that model because its going to happen. I was -| |- close to buying that for my wife. I guess now its not going to happen and if she wants something else first then well you lost her business.

if assholes wouldn't tether 5+ gigs (or way way more) a month then come to the forums bragging about it....we might not have this issue
but people want to abuse it and use tethering for ****ing torrents
morons

But what a boneheaded move. They must have known that many people wanted the G2 as a successor to the N1 as a dev phone.

Why is this in the vibrant section, this has nothing to do with the vibrant
The cake is a lie!

Maybe this is why the G2 folks won't see the full 4G ram that's becasue HTC used part of it to store the firmware to be rewrite when it detects an modification to the phone. Now, who else is dumping the vibrant for the G2?

im sure the devs will figure out a way around this pretty quick lol

PaiPiePia said:
Malware is inevitable which is why Google needs to step up their game, being "OPEN" does not mean no intervention of any sort. Simply looking through the app for malware while not irrationally rejecting App would bring a much needed safety net.
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And what is malware? Any app that reads your SMS? Well, Handcent needs to do that.
Any app that can dial? Google Maps can do that (not to mention the many Dialer replacements).
Any app that requests GPS? Well, if it's not in /system & your GPS is turned off, it can't turn it back on & if you want that app to remain free, the advertiser wants to target market.
Any app that sends your data someplace? Then just about everything on the phone is useless.
How can you look through the app & determine what is malware? Inspect the sourcecode manually? Some apps take nearly a year to get approved for the iDevices. Devs would abandon the Android Market if that started happening pretty quickly. The iDevices have a proven $ turnaround while Android has a pretty hefty piracy rate & others that just don't want to pay for any app because they shouldn't have to because the OS is open and free and so should the apps be.
byt3b0mb said:
the problem with this is that there was recently a ruling that jailbreaking your device is legal - this move is in direct violation to the DCMA ruling.
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Just because it is legal for you to do it doesn't mean it is illegal for the manufacturer to make it as hard on you as possible.
trashcan said:
Maybe this is why the G2 folks won't see the full 4G ram that's becasue HTC used part of it to store the firmware to be rewrite when it detects an modification to the phone. Now, who else is dumping the vibrant for the G2?
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That would make complete sense since they effectively need to keep a backup of the OS on hand in case you delete something....with most phones if you delete it, it's gone, you can't factory format back to stock (without a proper backup).
Since this was pretty much advertised as an upgrade to the G1 (hence the name and it coming out just about 2 years later), and most G1 owners were basically tech savvy people, this can't be good for HTC or TMO. This phone more than most others (excepting the N1) is the phone that the people who WANT root would be upgrading to (except for those of us that already swapped to the Vibrant).

Oops 10chars

HTC rocks!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by p3droid

This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
​I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls​
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls​
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.​I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.​The Rubber Meets the Road​
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.​3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).​The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "

**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.

Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.

Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?

bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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Click to collapse
This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.

bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.

cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.

Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.

Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.

cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.

kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
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Click to collapse
Except Motorola's bootloaders.

jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).

RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
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Click to collapse
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?

Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If only someone was willing to risk their job

phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.

ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh

No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.

Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.

Email campaign to HTC support for unsecured bootloaders.

Guys,
All of you owning a HTC Wildfire (Buzz) or any other HTC Android phone, go to the support page and sent the following email:
Dear HTC Support,
As you will not release more updates to the Wildfire and I will not be able to buy a new phone after using the phone for just 9 Months, is there any possibility that I (or even better: the community) can get an unlocked bootloader to install custom roms for the HTC Wildfire?
I do understand that you will try to force people to buy new HTC phones but not everyone can afford a new phone after 12Months and since the hardware is still up to date and running perfectly fine it should be possible to install customized roms to enhance the Wildfire (or any other) experience. I'm totally aware that this would void any warranty and support for the phone but as there is no more updates it doesn't matter anyway.
Wouldn't it make a much more positive company image if you would allow to do so? I will defentively only consider a customizable phone for the next one I buy and I would be very sad if HTC would not be on the list of possibilities.
Hope I can get a positive feedback from you guys and I do hope you understand my side and the rest of all of those freaks out there doing incredible things with your briliant hardware and software!
This would increas HTC popularity for sure and is also a fact for selling more phones than your competitors (SonyEricsson, Motorola).
Kind regards
YOURNAME
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If my english is not good enough feel free to rewrite the text but keep the same information to make sure the recognize that multiple users are sending these requests.
Maybe this helps to put some pressure on them as we are their customers spend our money to them and try to get the same as the community could do for the Motorola phones.
Unfortunately I'm not yet allowed to add any hyperlinks to the post and therefore the url to the world wide support form of HTC can't be posted by me...*sorry* (Anyone can do a followup post including the link?)
Thanks
Linuxcrash

Waste of time, if you send it to support or anything.
Support team just bins this kind of things.

ill try even this... sent

There is already a signing compaign started. First raise the number of signs in that and later we can think of complaint letters. First we need to know how many people will support it, so that if decent number of people (like thousands) support we can make a single complaint (of all the people) at a time, which will be more powerful. These individual complaints by people will never be bothered by htc for sure. And moreover these individual complaints gets splitted based on different countries, as each country has its specific support website. And splitting up these compaign processes will affect both of processes.
we can really expect the decent number of signs if everyone properly shares the link. Because while signing one need not create website user id.
link to the signing compaign : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1050222

I think it still is worth doing it.
I do agree that we should concentrate on the list but still just sending a complaint does not cost much and might raise a little of awareness.
If we have these multiple channels of communication we just need to use them and on one of them it might be heard
Even if those different support guys trash it, they might discuss this during a meeting or even during their break and if there are enough people talking about it, the complaints might go to the right person.
I see this here in my company aswell. If customers would complain more about the situation it, would probably have an influence later.
Keep on spreading "awareness" ...

Actually they didn't lock the bootloader accidentally. Its a planned thing to sell their newer wildfire S (which will be the mid range htc android phone). And they will continue to lock every htc android phone. I don't expect they will unlock it even if wildfire S gets outdated. Making others aware of not buying the locked htc phones will have some effect.
Anyhow i agree that it should be worth a try. Having a try will not cost us anything. But most probably, this will be considered as a spam. And i have sent the mail to support this. I used the worldwide htc support website to do this. And why don't we try to learn something, share our ideas, and try to root the wildfire..

Indeed I think it's pointless to send this request to HTC.
It is clearly a corporate strategy to lock their devices and make more turnover by selling new types over shorter periods of time.
It's just about the money and not about the users

Actually they do not really treat it as spam but at least do not answer positively..
.Got 2 answers back from HTC support telling me that they will never allow customers to install custom rom on their phones. But wait what happens if at one time they get massive (hope there are enough freaks/geeks out there) requests to allow it??
Therefore I agree with you but still keep asking doesnt cost anything and you never know what can happen.
In the meantime we definitively should keep trying to root the phone in any available way.

Henkdrenth said:
Indeed I think it's pointless to send this request to HTC.
It is clearly a corporate strategy to lock their devices and make more turnover by selling new types over shorter periods of time.
It's just about the money and not about the users
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Surely they may unlock.it to compete with sony erricson (who i am not happy with for losing my psn data) and motorola
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

e-mail reply
Reply: From HTC [email protected]
"Thank you for contacting HTC.
In regards to your enquiry, you can kindly recieve the FOTA upgrade to the 2.2 android(Froyo) version, simply by going to menu > settings > about phone > system software updates > check now.
The maximum version that the wildfire phone can get upgraded to in version 2.2
We do not force customers to buy new phones Sir, as we do provide upgrades and updates for the phones as soon as possible.
Unfortunately Sir we cannot provide you with information about an unlocked bootloader to install custom roms,as this is an illegal process ,and will affect the warranty of the phone."

Illegal? http://www.androidphonegeek.com/2010/07/rooting-your-phone-now-100-legal
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

brilldoctor said:
Illegal?
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Click to collapse
This is simply a response from htc support a question. Do not expect it to be a clever answer. These things are not decided by people who meet these emails. A people who have to answer them do not care about it. Because they have a plan of work that followed, but it is quite clear that it does not include S = off for Wildfire. We just do traffic in the forum of XDA. Nothing more we can do with HTC at the official way!
Fingers crossed! - guys with big brains to do something, because only they can help us now. No other ...
Do not know English very well written - sorry

brilldoctor said:
Illegal? http://www.androidphonegeek.com/2010/07/rooting-your-phone-now-100-legal
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, even if it is legal, their intentions will not support it. If we can see those "100% legal" in official websites of HTC or SE etc, we can confirm that it is legal.
The point is, we the geeks want it, need it, expect it, hope it to be legal.
How about google delaying the release of honeycomb source code. They intend to restrict the honeycomb to those devices which are manufactured with it.
And if people gets aware of locked botloaders, their market will be affected. Then they will manufacture the devices with root options. But people becoming aware never happens.....
al-ien4 said:
This is simply a response from htc support a question. Do not expect it to be a clever answer. These things are not decided by people who meet these emails. A people who have to answer them do not care about it. Because they have a plan of work that followed, but it is quite clear that it does not include S = off for Wildfire. We just do traffic in the forum of XDA. Nothing more we can do with HTC at the official way!
Fingers crossed! - guys with big brains to do something, because only they can help us now. No other ...
Do not know English very well written - sorry
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Click to collapse
I agree that these things are not decided by people who meet these emails, since all of us got the same replies.
And where are these guys with big brains. Im sure wildfire users with big brains are previously aware of not making the froyo ota update. In that case they will have a pre-rooted device and will not work on the rooting process..
And no updates of unrevoked regarding wildfire. Not sure whether they got the device, working, or not... Who else then......... Is it going to be like this forever.

bharatgaddameedi said:
I agree that these things are not decided by people who meet these emails, since all of us got the same replies.
And where are these guys with big brains. Im sure wildfire users with big brains are previously aware of not making the froyo ota update. In that case they will have a pre-rooted device and will not work on the rooting process..
And no updates of unrevoked regarding wildfire. Not sure whether they got the device, working, or not... Who else then......... Is it going to be like this forever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Business with HTC clip going strong since the update came out for Wildfire 2.2 Who manufactures these devices? If you are so s = off for people using this device will be less customers. Currently the only way is HTC clip - of which make any money, unlike unrevoked, which would make it more for glory than for money. Therefore I think that when willing to root through HTC clip fall, will appear and exploit for Wildfire. A first for low-end phones will also appear on the market in order to draw more money to compensate for the low price.
Another variant of the HTC negligence is simply silly to have received the update to 2.2 and now do not care (or shame them to fix the "error")
Anyway, can not do nothing but constantly picking and pray to the guys with "big brains" to say something about it. And if there is no way for S = off (or are not involved because they are arrogant and they like thousands of people to pray them every day for something) - at least to say it until the price of the phone is relatively good for sale yet ...
I just think everything is money and edification.
Do not know English very well written - sorry

Would it be possible to merge this with my campaign
Sent from some atoms

From my side it would even be a good thing to have all campaigns merged together and make it sticky so it stays at the top of the general board.
Any XDA-Board admin volunteer??
Thanks in advance

linuxcrash said:
From my side it would even be a good thing to have all campaigns merged together and make it sticky so it stays at the top of the general board.
Any XDA-Board admin volunteer??
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 on that
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using XDA App

Additional effect .....
Im expecting this is the right time to even go with this additional email campaign process. This should definitely give some boost now.
What do everyone think.

Lots of ROMs, theming and tweaking, BUT what about REAL IMPROVING?

These days, I'm seeing lots of supposed teams tossing zillions of ROMs that are no real improvement. I think I have tried 1 out 2 and I stopped the flashing game after I realized they are almost the same dog with a different collar.
Am I the only one? Is our Vibrant a stalled device in terms of REAL development? Come on, boys, less theming and more real improving!!

You're kidding, right?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I'm not kidding. Can you name a ROM that is not CM7 that is making real improvements like proper GPS with sensors and no path-sliding in Gingerbread, improved battery, no problems entering deep sleep and being fast?
Any ROM GB ROM that doesn't not suck, lasting less than 15 hours with moderate use?

You wanna go beg samsung to release source? Wait. Dont. By the way you type, you seem like a genius that can build us a source!

JMN... everyone jumped ship and started working on Gingerbread... without anything specific for our phone. I guess you could say we are stalled in that regard. Nobody wants 2.2.... and the 2.3.+ roms are missing a lot of the key things needed for what you seek. It is what it is.
Go pester T-Mobile and Samsung, not XDA/community/developers.
I do.

If it were as easy as you make it seem, I am sure our Vibrant would have a 100% working CM7 right now. Problem is, it isn't. We don't have any source code for Gingerbread, our GPS is from a half-baked file for the Galaxy S 4G, and Samsung decided to use several proprietary loops inside their source code that make the code counter-intuitive. As a result, our developers basically have to reverse engineer a good portion of the code itself.

Or you are more than welcome to start working on it yourself. Seems as up until JVQ dropped on I9000 I was the only one actually doing anything (with of course a couple other good people dropping in from time to time). From April until now we went from a build that was barely usable for more than a couple hours to builds that are definite daily drivers. Granted there are still some flaws but with less than a handful of people do any real developing on what free time we do have and for no incentive other than the thank you button and occasional donation I'd say we're doing pretty damn good.
In the words of someone famous you're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. Which are you going be?
EDIT: My statement above is putting CM7/MIUI aside, different animal/problems/features/pluses/minuses.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App

I dunno man, I found a ROM that does everything that you listed. What you're asking is a lot of development time for marginal improvements.
Sent from my HTC Sensation

So what do you gotta say now bro?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

its not that easy to build a rom thats so great people build on xda some can be slightly better than others but hey thats why u get updates, if ur looking for good battery life on gb use an i9000 port like simplyhoney and u wont be mad about the battery life on the other hand i use cm7 and have been on it ever since nightlies started being released i will tell u it came a long way from no gps and battery drain to a half working gps which is still functional to decent battery life and i am grateful for all the hard work but into it

Funny seems like JMN went silent!
I think he got served!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App

Biting the hands that feed... smh

OK, OK.
Please, forgive me for my anger being unleashed. Maybe it was that I see newer devices having a plethora of updates and improvements, or maybe because with my previous device (HTC Polaris running Windows Mobile 6) there was a man (XDA member know as DZO) that reverse engineered it, driver by driver to make a fully fledged Android device.
I ask you for your understanding, and hope you pardon me. You're right: the real problem here is that T-Mobile and Samsung abandoned the Vibrant to its own luck.
Lots of devs jumped ships because of that. I don't make them guilty about this situation, although I did in my first post. Sorry about that.
I'm a dev myself, but not so low level. I cannot compile drivers or reverse engineer. Otherwise, I would really like to collaborate with Atinm and the others.
Please, don't abandon or blame the Vibrant and other Galaxy S devices and try to squeeze all the juice out of it. If we all switch to the latest device, manufacturers will always laugh at us selling slightly different hardware, not upgrades for our totally capable devices.
Nothing more to add. Sorry for my rough and disrespectful words I wrote before. Long live XDA-Devs.

My fellows, I went to the T-Mobile USA facebook site (http://www.facebook.com/TMobile) and published this on their wall:
"SHAME ON YOU, T-MOBILE! Where is Gingerbread for the T-Mobile VIBRANT???? Do you ever care about your users? Do you think we will eat every phone you release with no questions and wishing NO SUPPORT? We do buy devices with future in mind. A ONE-year-device has been ditched away because you are too busy selling the so called 4G version. Too obvious you're playing with us, playing the "buy me and forget me" game. Sorry, but never again to you, T-Mobile, or whatever you will be called after the merger."
I hope you could support me or write comments criticizing the way T-Mobile is acting upon us.
Thanks.

I just re-posted your message on T-Mobiles Facebook site. Not too sure where yours went. Maybe they deleted it.

Thanks a lot, dude. They have the site configured so you cannot see the posts that users write on the wall until you explicitly reveal them using the "Most recent" option (link http://www.facebook.com/TMobile?sk=wall&filter=1). It's there, I think. We need to cry out loud.

I absolutely approve of telling T-Mobile we are tired of waiting.....
Gingerbread = Security.

I posted this on their facebook, all we can do is hope one day they get the point.
"T-mobile, you have a very loyal customer base that bought one of 2010's best smartphones, the Samsung Vibrant. However, with the release of the Samsung Vibrant 4g, we have been left in the dark and seemingly ignored regarding security updates and notifications, specifically the gingerbread 2.3 update. We buy devices with the future in mind, and expect to have full support for the devices we spend our hard earned money on. We know that Samsung awaits your instruction to push the updates, and we respectfully request you do so immediately, in order to be up to date on stability, security, and support. This situation has bothered and frustrated many in the Vibrant community, we only ask that you extinguish that fire by providing us the update we deserve and earned, by being your customers."

people will never learn...
they cannot support devices forever. it seems like every single person thinks that once they buy a smartphone, they are guaranteed lifetime support. the cell phone industry is one of the fastest growing industries in the world. i would much rather them cut off my support and have a beast upgrade waiting for me, rather than them focus on constantly rolling out updates for every single device theyve ever created just to shut up *****y consumers. think about it, getting stuck with an outdated device makes it all that much better once you get your upgrade! its amazing im saying this, as i despise corporate america.
i realize the vibrant is just over a year removed, BUT THIS HAPPENS WITH EVERY SINGLE DEVICE. i guarantee if you go to ANY other forum for a device that is 1+ years old, 95% of them will be filled with threads like this. update this, update that, fix this, release this blahblahiwantmybottleblahblah. its not JUST tmobile. its not JUST samsung. these accusations are so narrow-minded. what would happen if they released gingerbread??? two months later, the cry babies would be right back in full swing, "wheres honeycomb?? release honeycomb source!!" it has to end somewhere, you can never satisfy everybody, let alone ANYBODY in the vibrant forum.
its the industry. its the way it works, so stop acting like we are the only ones who are "suffering". its such an ignorant, narcissistic way of looking at it. enjoy what you got, nothings ever built to last. youre "stuck" with a damn good device, it is what you make it. weekly threads begging for gingerbread, or ****ting on tmobile/samsung is clearly not getting it done. so maybe people should be spending their time differently instead of constantly *****ing: get familiar with linux, learn to compile/decompile, learn to theme...its amazing how much fun (yes, without source!) youll be able to have once you learn some stuff. keep yourself busy creating new things, youll take more pride in your device knowing its something that YOU created, as opposed to trolling around and downloading anything you can get your sticky fingers on.
gingerbread isnt here....but neither is the end of the world.

TopShelf10 said:
people will never learn...
they cannot support devices forever. it seems like every single person thinks that once they buy a smartphone, they are guaranteed lifetime support. the cell phone industry is one of the fastest growing industries in the world. i would much rather them cut off my support and have a beast upgrade waiting for me, rather than them focus on constantly rolling out updates for every single device theyve ever created just to shut up *****y consumers. think about it, getting stuck with an outdated device makes it all that much better once you get your upgrade! its amazing im saying this, as i despise corporate america.
i realize the vibrant is just over a year removed, BUT THIS HAPPENS WITH EVERY SINGLE DEVICE. i guarantee if you go to ANY other forum for a device that is 1+ years old, 95% of them will be filled with threads like this. update this, update that, fix this, release this blahblahiwantmybottleblahblah. its not JUST tmobile. its not JUST samsung. these accusations are so narrow-minded. what would happen if they released gingerbread??? two months later, the cry babies would be right back in full swing, "wheres honeycomb?? release honeycomb source!!" it has to end somewhere, you can never satisfy everybody, let alone ANYBODY in the vibrant forum.
its the industry. its the way it works, so stop acting like we are the only ones who are "suffering". its such an ignorant, narcissistic way of looking at it. enjoy what you got, nothings ever built to last. youre "stuck" with a damn good device, it is what you make it. weekly threads begging for gingerbread, or ****ting on tmobile/samsung is clearly not getting it done. so maybe people should be spending their time differently instead of constantly *****ing: get familiar with linux, learn to compile/decompile, learn to theme...its amazing how much fun (yes, without source!) youll be able to have once you learn some stuff. keep yourself busy creating new things, youll take more pride in your device knowing its something that YOU created, as opposed to trolling around and downloading anything you can get your sticky fingers on.
gingerbread isnt here....but neither is the end of the world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest, support for the Vibrant has been pretty much nonexistent from T-Mobile, I don't think it's too much to ask for a GB ROM from them and Samsung, had T-Mobile been into providing us service instead of trying to sell out we could have had a beter chance at some real support.