Related
I really don't want this to come across wrong, but I just have to say it.
Developers, I appreciate all your hard work. I understand this is all beta/test/etc. I understand it is free of cost, even to those who did donate to one dev or another. You do it because you want to, not because you have to.
But please, for the love of all that's good - keep an updated list of Known Issues!
It sucks having to read 50 pages of posts to try to figure out if a particular release is reliable or not, to find out if there's a key feature broken or buggy. What makes it worse is you can't tell when reading these threads which users are on which release, because many still post issues after they've been resolved. Others post things that aren't really "issues" but user error.
You know what your issues are, you read the threads and you fix the issues. But trying to find a decent rom to flash is very, very difficult when your OP says "No known problems" and the thread that follows show that to be very untrue. It generates a lot of extra posts with people posting things you already know about, and it generates a lot of bad will when someone flashes something only to find that there are a number of game breaking issues.
All it takes is to update a post, say #2, in your thread, with KNOWN ISSUES. Once you confirm a bug, whether you intend to fix it on your next release or not, add it to that thread. It helps you, as a dev keep track of the bug, and it helps potential downloaders know what bugs have been confirmed and make an educated decision as to whether they want to install your release.
Hiding known issues is something I don't think anyone does intentionally, but it feels that way sometimes. It feels like devs are in a popularity contest, and any admission of flaws in their particular ROM is a weakness. Well, to tell the truth, I and many others are sick of installing something that was CLAIMED to be working perfectly, only to have glaring problems that have been there for many versions.
For a civil and productive development community. Please. Be honest with your known issues. It will go a long way in building trust with the people who you're providing ROMs to, and will mean fewer posts for YOU to wade through of users reporting known issues, without having read 500 posts first.
I have a hard time believing that most devs actively hide them. Most of the time it's probably just a bit of laziness. But, yes, it would be helpful when comparing roms if the descriptions had a well-maintained list of active bugs.
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
The other issue is the people flashing these roms, coming from Eugene's to Whiskey to the ASOP roms may generate some ghosts in the software that the developers cannot duplicate themselves. I know that when I went with the TW 2.2 roms I had plenty of issues, more issues than I have had even when I was stock. Odining back to stock and reflashing the 4.2 TW fixed ALL my problems. Dont know what caused it but since I have flashed a couple of roms prior to that (no problems), I will assume there were some ghosts in my system. This is an example that unless a TW team member is holding MY phone and working on it, they may not be able to duplicate
They don't care to list them. It's beneath some of them.
Maybe AirBus should list "midair exploding engines" as a known issue too...
kponti said:
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
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+1. Hell, at work I run a $100,000.00+ software suite and even that company won't do what the OP suggests!
If you have a problem with them stop using their roms go back to stock and see how much better theirs is even with a few bugs, not one of you has any right to complain. They do damn good work for free with some donations that do not come close to what they should be paid for it but they do not whine at all.
The problem I find is the "spammy" and useless comments average and pretentious users make which is both hard for the developer and the end user to read the threads. A dev releases a ROM and there is a guaranteed "Oh I can't wait to flash this" comment that will pop up. And there are some issues that are minor and are sometimes not related to the release that are posted and some pretentious loser who extends his ego by trying to make simple matters complicated. This forum didn't much of this problem before and I could quickly flash ROMs easily since I could clearly grasp the status on the ROM project.
I wish they would start a new thread with new releases. It's a pain to try to read through a 500 page thread, and you comments about this or that, and you have no idea which version the person is talking about. I gave up on custom roms and just using the leaked tmo 2.2, thanks for that Eugene
kponti said:
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
The other issue is the people flashing these roms, coming from Eugene's to Whiskey to the ASOP roms may generate some ghosts in the software that the developers cannot duplicate themselves. I know that when I went with the TW 2.2 roms I had plenty of issues, more issues than I have had even when I was stock. Odining back to stock and reflashing the 4.2 TW fixed ALL my problems. Dont know what caused it but since I have flashed a couple of roms prior to that (no problems), I will assume there were some ghosts in my system. This is an example that unless a TW team member is holding MY phone and working on it, they may not be able to duplicate
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A $20 donation is not worth the risk of bricking a $550 phone just because they got "lazy" and didn't notify donators/downloaders of [a] potentially show-stopping issue.
Posted a new Thread in Dev section for the purpose of reporting issues. So if you have an issue please shoot it to me and I will post it in that thread.
Update: Here is the link for the WIKI page.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
swehes said:
Posted a new Thread in Dev section for the purpose of reporting issues. So if you have an issue please shoot it to me and I will post it in that thread.
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You are in a heap of trouble, a lot of people don't read, and you are gonna get 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 repeats of the same issue.
"OMG! MY SD CAR DONES"T MOUNT< HELP ME!11!!111"
chui101 said:
I have a hard time believing that most devs actively hide them. Most of the time it's probably just a bit of laziness. But, yes, it would be helpful when comparing roms if the descriptions had a well-maintained list of active bugs.
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The issue here is really that a forum is not the ideal place to manage software releases. A list of bugs emerges from community testing, but there's nowhere to "post" that list of issues, or attach it to a specific release. Since there's no way for the community to add such documentation, it falls on the ROM builder, who probably has other priorities.
This kind of project could be well served by using a real software project management software solution, such as say google code, which has an issue tracker and other useful features. But XDA does already give us a better tool than the forum - the XDA wiki!
I wish people would use the XDA wiki more extensively. This would be a good place to keep updated documentation such as this, without requiring the OP to keep a forum post updated with the latest findings. All the OP needs to do is link to the wiki page, and other people can help maintain it.
OK. Looking into Google Code.
(Update) So looking into the Google Code. What Licensing agreement are the ROMs under? Is it GPL v2 or v3 or another license?
swehes said:
OK. Looking into Google Code.
(Update) So looking into the Google Code. What Licensing agreement are the ROMs under? Is it GPL v2 or v3 or another license?
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Depends on the project. The Linux kernel is GPLv2, so any kernels fall under that license. AOSP as a whole uses both GPL and apache code.
The issue with ROMs is that unless they're AOSP derived (like cyanogenmod) they often include binaries for which the license situation is murky at best, so google code isn't really an ideal fit for a "ROM" that's only ever released as a binary.
Really I was throwing google code out there as a well known example, there are tons of other ways to track issues. There are dedicated issue tracking systems such as trac, bugzilla, etc, but they require hosting. Most of the freely available hosted services require that you're running an open source project, which isn't necessarily true for the ROMs here.
IMO a serious project could very well benefit from such tools, but just using an XDA wiki page which community members can freely update is a great first step.
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
swehes said:
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
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Not to be the "Spelling Nazi", and I am not even sure if you can change it, but it is "Kernel" not "Kernal". Also, the Dev on Team Whiskey is Sombionix, not Symbionix.
Otherwise, that looks like a great idea, and possible way of tracking things!
EDIT - I guess I could go ahead and make those tweaks, with it being a wiki and all couldn't I....
EDIT EDIT - Fixed it.
Stargazer3777 said:
Not to be the "Spelling Nazi", and I am not even sure if you can change it, but it is "Kernel" not "Kernal". Also, the Dev on Team Whiskey is Sombionix, not Symbionix.
Otherwise, that looks like a great idea, and possible way of tracking things!
EDIT - I guess I could go ahead and make those tweaks, with it being a wiki and all couldn't I....
EDIT EDIT - Fixed it.
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Thanks. On both accounts.
Maybe this should be a post to Microsoft
To quote "there are known, unknowns and unknown, knowns and and even sometimes unknown,unknowns............but.........
Developers ----develop they do not become a bookkeeper of their development.........that is coordinating work...........good luck getting any developer in ANY Specialty to do that............. reporting bugs........
---Maybe this should be a post to Microsoft---
N8ter said:
A $20 donation is not worth the risk of bricking a $550 phone just because they got "lazy" and didn't notify donators/downloaders of [a] potentially show-stopping issue.
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I have yet to see a REAL (completely dead) "bricked" vibrant from flashing a released Rom alone. I have seen a lot of user error cause boot loops or "soft-bricks" & HWL phones become unflashable because the end user didn't take the time to research though. As far as devs being "lazy" I dont really see that when the developer is coming here for us to tell him what else we find wrong. They are coding, you flash, you report back with a logcat. This is how development is made to my understanding. If ppl are to lazy to JUST do this then why shouldn't the developer discount long winded post or something they are not experiencing? If they know there is a bug its in the OP.
If you guys can change the interwebz & how 500 post per update are made completely useless please feel free to do so....
swehes said:
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
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I think it's a pretty awesome start for sure
As a matter of personal taste, I think having an individual wiki page per ROM (with the known issues and other detailed info) might be nice, although I'm not sure what the policy on new pages is with the XDA wiki.
Speaking from professional experience, the most challenging aspect of any documentation system is always convincing people to use it. It's great to compile the information, but unless ROM builders and devs post a link to the wiki in the forum threads nobody will ever see it. Having good, community based documentation is a benefit to everybody though, so hopefully people will recognize the utility of it and encourage its growth!
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
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The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
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I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
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This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
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No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
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I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
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I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
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Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us
Just putting it out there that I would love to be a tester for the Galaxy SII, I have the original one, I have flash and went through 90% of every ROM up for it in both sections the original section and regular section, I just love flashing and going through Roms and would love to just help out someone with there Rom and do whatever it is they need me to do as far as testing, please hit me back. I hope I posted this is the right place if not, I will watch the Noob video 20 times in a row for punishment.
ah ok...... that's an idea
Original SGS II ? No kidding! :|
At first, I thought of this as just a pointless thread - but you got me thinking... What if we were to create a thread where people can nominate themselves as alpha/beta/etc. testers for ROM/Kernel developers? The difference lying in that to be eligible for a position, you'd have to prove that you have basic knowledge of how to recover from, for example, a bootloop, or a device that won't even boot, or constant FCs, etc. etc., along with again, pretty basic ADB knowledge, how to create and restore a NANDroid backup, and things like that. It'd come with the usual disclaimer stating that all responsibilities lie with the user, not the developer, and while the developer may be willing to provide support for bugs, etc., they are not liable for any damage resulting either directly or indirectly from the use of their software.
This would solve two things - it would satisfy those who just can't stand to wait for the release of something, who like to always live on the bleeding edge of development, and it would provide the developers a huge testing platform.
In review, though, this provides to main issues: 1) people would only be able to test one thing at a time, e.g. you're not going to be allowed to test a beta ROM with an alpha kernel, for example - it creates too many variables, and makes it harder for the developers to isolate and fix problems - but this shouldn't be an issue for people, just pick what you want and stick with it, and 2) people who leak the otherwise tester-restricted software for the masses - but this can be solved easily: maintain a list of official testers. Anyone who comes begging for support because they went ahead and flashed some leaked ROM/kernel/whatever, and ended up without a working device without being on the list, can be denied support for breaking the rules. Moreover, they, along with the leaker, could potentially face site-imposed bans?
I'll cut the rambling here, but I think it's a good idea?
As a ROM developer, its a great idea.
Sent from HydrOG3N MOD S2.
Technology Evolves, Android Evolves.
HydrOG3N is THE Revolution.
Thinking about it, not bad idea. But to back sceamworks up a bit, there should be a number of post limit, Some form of history for the dev`s to see who is a Noob (sorry Noobs) and who is not...
I'm in
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
I like the idea and I too would be glad to help people testing there ROMs.
It also seems nice to have a thread where people (like me or the OP) can set them self available for testing.
Most real developers pick their team from watching the threads and see how is willing to put the time in and know how to properly test as well as offer ideas on fixes. But not a bad idea I guess for new rom developers
lodger said:
Thinking about it, not bad idea. But to back sceamworks up a bit, there should be a number of post limit, Some form of history for the dev`s to see who is a Noob (sorry Noobs) and who is not...
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Click to collapse
I agree completely, I'd say 50-100 would be a fair starting point? I might PM some devs sometime soon with a proper proposal, and if I get a positive response from a majority of them, I might draft something, and get some official names on-board.
zelendel said:
Most real developers pick their team from watching the threads and see how is willing to put the time in and know how to properly test as well as offer ideas on fixes. But not a bad idea I guess for new rom developers
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Click to collapse
I considered this, and I think if anything brings the idea down, it'll be that - it's a hard sell to make, and I'd love to say that there's no harm in trying, but really, there is, so I guess execution is everything?
Good idea, im in....
If you are stuck with a phone for which the manufacturer has stopped releasing updates, or if you are bored with your current Android version and want to try something new, or if you want to be on the latest Android security patches, or if you want to make use to theming engines such as Substratum (which may not work with your phone's default OS), or if you are just a hobbyist looking for something fresh…custom android roms provide you with the perfect solution for your needs. Made by developers and enthusiasts, custom roms illustrate the power of diversity that can come from an open source ecosystem.
In theory, at least.
Below is my commentary on my trysts with custom roms over the last year and half.
Disclaimer: My experiences are based mostly on three phones - Moto G4, Redmi Note 3 (kenzo, not kate), and OnePlus 3.
The Trouble with custom Roms
1. Barriers to Entry
Before you can even venture into the world of installing and trying out new roms, you must ensure that your phone is, in fact, ready for it. This requires steps like getting the bootloader unlocked (can be tricky with phones like Xiaomi etc.), installing custom recovery, and then flashing roms, and then flashing GApps. For most users, this is too much hassle that they can be bothered with. There is a significantly steep learning curve for the layperson.
Thereafter, you must see which ROMs are available for your phone, which are still in active development, which have less bugs etc. This requires a lot of time going through the forums. Otherwise, you will waste more time flashing and then reflashing continuously.
Which brings us to the second point.
2. Official, Unofficial, MOD….Abandoned!
So, you found your way around XDA forums…good job! Now, you must start figuring out the differences between Official and Unofficial roms, and what that implies. The situation gets even more complex, because often we assume that Official tag would imply active development and bugfixes, and security updates, and the like. However, there are many "Official" roms that are dead, but "unofficial" roms that are alive, with more bugfixes, and a wider community.
One example is Citrus-CAF for Kenzo Official, which is dead…but Customized LOS build by Umang, which is unofficial, which is going well.
So after a while, the user realizes that whether there is an Official tag or Unofficial tag, really doesn't matter for all practical purposes, and is quite frankly just confusing. So why even bother with the tags? Official builds are equally likely to be abandoned by the developers without any prior notice, as are unofficial builds. Which takes us to the next issue.
3. Abandoned!
Remember, why you hopped on to the custom roms scene in the first place? That your manufacturer has abandoned your device and you wanted something new and more up to date? Well, guess what?! Custom rom developers abandon their roms all the time, without any warning whatsoever, and you are stuck waiting for the next build, which never comes.
This is hidden under the courteous pretenses of asinine etiquettes such as… "Don't ask for ETAs..the developers have a life you know, they are doing this for free, so just wait."
Here is my gripe with this all-pervasive norm. The developers knew they have a life, and yet decided to commit to a project, and attracted other people to their roms. And people put their trust in the developer (phones have all our data, so allowing a random person's code willingly on our phones is an act of utmost good faith), reported bugs, went through the trouble of the learning curve. Some even donated to the projects. If you start a pet project in your backyard, which no one else is affected by, then by all means go ahead and abandon it whenever you like. But when you are making OSes, then have some accountability. Especially the Official tag ones.
So many developers are just computer science students who have exams and what not, and so although the title of the ROM thread might claim weekly updates, they are gone for a month (Eg. Resurrection Remix for Redmi Note 3). This gives the whole rom an amateurish feel, and often a user might decide to stick with the OEM because of a lack of confidence in such roms.
And what is so wrong with asking for ETAs? It requires the developer to make a commitment which they may not be in a position to honor. That's the problem. Which leads me to the next point.
4. Communication
There are some developers who are really good at communication and keeping their user base updated on what's happening behind the scenes. However, this is still a rarity. I wish more developers did that. Some start new threads, promise you the best experience there ever was in the history of humanity, stay online for a month, and then vanish without a trace…(Eg. dotOS).
I wish there were more developers like xyyx, and Franco who communicate, even when they are not uploading builds. It instills confidence.
5. Accountability
I recently directed a friend of mine to go to one of the many rom threads available for his phone, the OnePlus 5. He spent one night browsing the forums, and decided he did not want to install anything. I asked why, and he said, "All this is fine, but I cannot get past, the initial disclaimer itself. When a manufacturer messes up an update and bricks your phone, they are held accountable. It is their legal responsibility. But here, every single rom starts with … you are on your own, if I release an update which breaks your phone, then too bad, go cry somewhere else. I cannot abide by that."
And this got me thinking…for those of us, who are not so tech savvy, custom roms are indeed a scary proposition. Can we do something about it, to ensure a little bit more accountability and quality checks for Official roms at least?
6. Userbase/ Community
While the general populace here at XDA is extremely helpful, I have found that this forum is divided into sub-communities of varying degrees of niceness. The stark difference can be found in the sub-communities of Oneplus 3 custom rom versus that of Redmi Note 3. While the former group seems more mature and accepting of mistakes newcomers might make, that of the latter, is less forgiving.
Please take a look at the below just some of the thousands of examples of such conversations live on the forums.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Once you are done wondering about the relevance of an inquiry on your sexual orientation by a homophobic imbecile, on a custom rom forum, you find yourself guided by experts like this...
But the most common, useful advice of them all, repeated many times on custom rom forums is this....
Now I know the moderators clean the threads at regular intervals, but think from the perspective of that new user, a potential fellow enthusiast, who perhaps could have ventured into the custom rom scene and helped in various ways…think from that person's point of view….would they ever return to that rom? Every three pages of any rom, you will find such comments.
And this is a huge problem, I feel. Custom roms thrive on the community around them, much like Linux distributions. Developers and moderators must take more steps to ensure a more harmonious and cordial interaction on their forums.
Conclusion
Here are my takeaways from this journey so far
Installing custom roms is difficult, and a pain. With locked bootloaders, custom recoveries, Error 7, etc etc. There is very little a developer can do about this.
Currently, there seems to be no difference between Official and Unofficial roms from a user's perspective, so the tags are meaningless and confusing. That Official tag will start to mean something, only if there are more stringent conditions on quality, accountability, communication, and expectation of support and development. Otherwise, it is useless.
The community needs to be better moderated than it is, currently. Trolls are a fact of modern life, I know. But perhaps, we as a community can also moderate and shut down any such conversations, and help each other, better than we are doing.
Overall, I think, rather than depending solely on the developers and maintainers of a custom rom, I think it is upon us, the community, as a whole to make this ecosystem better for users and developers, enthusiasts and hobbyists, geeks and layperson, alike.
Lol
---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------
BTW good post
You should post this on medium and also email sites like androidpolice! You can get it published.
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
It you don't want, then don't use custom roms. Developers don't force you to use them. Please atleast try to code for a simple app. Then complain about developers. Don't show disrespect to the developers who makes our phones awesome. If you don't want, then stick to stock rom.
At least with MIUI, you'll still be getting UI and security updates even if the kernel base is several generations behind. I love custom ROMs but they're not for the faint of heart, you have to be willing to fix a hard brick before you even think of flashing.
I also don't complain about ROMs or developers because these are all volunteer efforts. When I get home from work, I like to relax with a good ebook and a good workout... Developers spend their down time coding for all of us.
The real targets for indignation should be device and chipset vendors. They black-box most of their code using proprietary blobs and they delay or never release kernel sources, hindering the work of custom ROM developers. The unfortunate truth is that the mobile industry is obsessed with numbers and wants everyone to buy new phones every few months, old devices usually being thrown away. Custom ROMs keep these older phones working for a lot longer but this means reduced profits for the industry.
1emrys1 said:
You should post this on medium and also email sites like androidpolice! You can get it published.
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
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Haha thank you.
karthikkarthik said:
It you don't want, then don't use custom roms. Developers don't force you to use them. Please atleast try to code for a simple app. Then complain about developers. Don't show disrespect to the developers who makes our phones awesome. If you don't want, then stick to stock rom.
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Click to collapse
Thank you for illustrating my point no. 6 very well. I was actually waiting for a comment like this.
To the readers who come here after, please see this post as an example of what is wrong with the community of Redmi Note 3 sub forums especially. If you don't like something, don't use it, but we will not improve or change or even consider how you the user might be feeling. In fact, we are really fine with using half-baked, buggy, and abandoned roms, because we defend this action in the above manner. And if you, the reader, don't like it, you can go to hell.
Thank you, for this illustration. I am sure xda would not be where it is today without such fanboys, and knights defending the honor of developers-in-hiding.
But, to others...We must be better than this.
But if I were to respond to you, I'd say...no one forced the developer either to publish his crappy rom, promise you regular updates, make a commitment to you, beg you for donations, promise you continuous support, gain the user's trust and....once his crappy rom has been flashed on your device....to just abandon it and leave...because well "he has a life".
Don't commit, if you can't follow through on your commitment. If you like making roms, make roms, and keep them to yourself. But when you make a promise, and when you get hundreds, if not thousands of people, to install your code on their device, then have the basic decency of accountability. Show your userbase the same respect you demand of them.
oatcooky said:
At least with MIUI, you'll still be getting UI and security updates even if the kernel base is several generations behind. I love custom ROMs but they're not for the faint of heart, you have to be willing to fix a hard brick before you even think of flashing.
I also don't complain about ROMs or developers because these are all volunteer efforts. When I get home from work, I like to relax with a good ebook and a good workout... Developers spend their down time coding for all of us.
The real targets for indignation should be device and chipset vendors. They black-box most of their code using proprietary blobs and they delay or never release kernel sources, hindering the work of custom ROM developers. The unfortunate truth is that the mobile industry is obsessed with numbers and wants everyone to buy new phones every few months, old devices usually being thrown away. Custom ROMs keep these older phones working for a lot longer but this means reduced profits for the industry.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I agree with you. It is really a pain...and when after a lot of efforts let's say someone manages to get something to work (Eg. VOLTE video call, Goodix fp etc), it is still mostly unreliable and buggy. This is not a developer side problem, but the manufacturer side issue like you correctly said.
My post is not only about developers. But about a lot of other things, including the community interactions and the whole sub-forum ecosystem. But just because it is a volunteer effort, doesn't mean you should not have certain standards. But anyway, I think the developer side of the issue is not as big as the community side of the issue. There is rampant abuse, personal attacks and what not, for asking simple questions and doubts, which are completely unnecessary. Everyone would leave like that, and what you are left with a bunch of people like the second post above quoted, who really don't give the community a better name. And its a vicious cycle that repeats itself. Perhaps, we can stop worrying about OEM strategies because it is not something that we can control, and start by things that we can control....like the interactions we have here.
The guys on posts that you screenshotted are doing what has to be done. If everyone stops spoonfeeding other people, posts like "plezz gimme the latest room link" will disappear eventually.
scrubjay55 said:
The guys on posts that you screenshotted are doing what has to be done. If everyone stops spoonfeeding other people, posts like "plezz gimme the latest room link" will disappear eventually.
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Click to collapse
So you happen to be one of the people who condone online abuse under the pretext of not 'spoonfeeding'? There are many ways to respond to the same queries without resorting to abuse and questioning people's sexual orientation. It's called being civilised. Which seems to be a rarity in these sub forums. Hence it is inaccessible to most newcomers.
And while many developers do post updated links and changelogs on the first post itself, and diligently update it periodically... Not all do.
The whole point of the article is to take more responsibility in being a more helpful community rather than abusing people.
Those guys should find other vents to take out their frustrations of life, elsewhere.
vypers said:
So you happen to be one of the people who condone online abuse under the pretext of not 'spoonfeeding'? There are many ways to respond to the same queries without resorting to abuse and questioning people's sexual orientation. It's called being civilised. Which seems to be a rarity in these sub forums. Hence it is inaccessible to most newcomers.
And while many developers do post updated links and changelogs on the first post itself, and diligently update it periodically... Not all do.
The whole point of the article is to take more responsibility in being a more helpful community rather than abusing people.
Those guys should find other vents to take out their frustrations of life, elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While I agree with the OP in general, I disagree with this particular point. There are hundreds of people who just hop onto a thread with the usual dumb questions - "SOT?" "Muh VoLTE?" and so on without reading anything. They don't read the original dev posts, nor the following posts, not even the posts that are just above theirs, which sometimes even have the answer. They expect to get everything given to them - the links, the tutorial, the bug reports to the point where they basically expect you to install everything for them and even wipe their ass while you're leaving. You say, be cordial and don't abuse people, but that goes both ways. People should read more and stop abusing devs with utterly moronic questions.
Alan Ryan said:
While I agree with the OP in general, I disagree with this particular point. There are hundreds of people who just hop onto a thread with the usual dumb questions - "SOT?" "Muh VoLTE?" and so on without reading anything. They don't read the original dev posts, nor the following posts, not even the posts that are just above theirs, which sometimes even have the answer. They expect to get everything given to them - the links, the tutorial, the bug reports to the point where they basically expect to install everything for them and even wipe their ass while you're leaving. You say, be cordial and don't abuse people, but that goes both ways. People should read more and stop abusing devs with utterly moronic questions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah this is what i was trying to imply.
vypers said:
Haha thank you.
Thank you for illustrating my point no. 6 very well. I was actually waiting for a comment like this.
To the readers who come here after, please see this post as an example of what is wrong with the community of Redmi Note 3 sub forums especially. If you don't like something, don't use it, but we will not improve or change or even consider how you the user might be feeling. In fact, we are really fine with using half-baked, buggy, and abandoned roms, because we defend this action in the above manner. And if you, the reader, don't like it, you can go to hell.
Thank you, for this illustration. I am sure xda would not be where it is today without such fanboys, and knights defending the honor of developers-in-hiding.
But, to others...We must be better than this.
But if I were to respond to you, I'd say...no one forced the developer either to publish his crappy rom, promise you regular updates, make a commitment to you, beg you for donations, promise you continuous support, gain the user's trust and....once his crappy rom has been flashed on your device....to just abandon it and leave...because well "he has a life".
Don't commit, if you can't follow through on your commitment. If you like making roms, make roms, and keep them to yourself. But when you make a promise, and when you get hundreds, if not thousands of people, to install your code on their device, then have the basic decency of accountability. Show your userbase the same respect you demand of them.
Yes, I agree with you. It is really a pain...and when after a lot of efforts let's say someone manages to get something to work (Eg. VOLTE video call, Goodix fp etc), it is still mostly unreliable and buggy. This is not a developer side problem, but the manufacturer side issue like you correctly said.
My post is not only about developers. But about a lot of other things, including the community interactions and the whole sub-forum ecosystem. But just because it is a volunteer effort, doesn't mean you should not have certain standards. But anyway, I think the developer side of the issue is not as big as the community side of the issue. There is rampant abuse, personal attacks and what not, for asking simple questions and doubts, which are completely unnecessary. Everyone would leave like that, and what you are left with a bunch of people like the second post above quoted, who really don't give the community a better name. And its a vicious cycle that repeats itself. Perhaps, we can stop worrying about OEM strategies because it is not something that we can control, and start by things that we can control....like the interactions we have here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just like I said earlier. Nobody forces you to use their custom rom. And nobody begs for donations. First try to code atleast a line before posting such s*** posts. Then you will know how hard it is. You are just a noob trying to showoff by showing your hollow brain ?. Just pathetic.
karthikkarthik said:
Just like I said earlier. Nobody forces you to use their custom rom. And nobody begs for donations. First try to code atleast a line before posting such s*** posts. Then you will know how hard it is. You are just a noob trying to showoff by showing your hollow brain . Just pathetic.
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Click to collapse
To Other Readers:
Dear Reader, this is an example of personal attack by a member of the custom rom community. When such a person has nothing substantial to say, they will assume things about you (In the screenshot in the original post it was questioning someone's sexual identity, and here that one doesn't know "a line of code" and is a "noob"). They will then proceed to abuse you by trying to dissolve any credibility that you might have. Actually their entire message will not have anything of substance, and will not contribute in any meaningful way to a productive discussion.
In fact, it might be factually incorrect too.
Eg. "nobody begs for donations". As you can see below, the above respondent is actually more ignorant than what they may accuse you of being.
1.
2.
3.
4.
Oh and BTW,
In fact, the respondent himself has solicited donations in the past, it would seem...:silly::silly:
Before abandoning that project, as was one of the points in the original post.
So you, dear reader, may choose to ignore such comments. You will find such comments and aggression littered across all custom rom sub forums. But it is not representative of the larger XDA community, I assure you, which is more helpful and forthcoming than this.
***
P.S. Yes, I can code. Been at it more than 8 years now. Not custom roms, of course (otherwise why would I post the article). So much for assumptions of me being a 'noob' and 'not knowing how to code' LOL. :good:
Nice post. :good:
vypers said:
To Other Readers:
Dear Reader, this is an example of personal attack by a member of the custom rom community. When such a person has nothing substantial to say, they will assume things about you (In the screenshot in the original post it was questioning someone's sexual identity, and here that one doesn't know "a line of code" and is a "noob"). They will then proceed to abuse you by trying to dissolve any credibility that you might have. Actually their entire message will not have anything of substance, and will not contribute in any meaningful way to a productive discussion.
In fact, it might be factually incorrect too.
Eg. "nobody begs for donations". As you can see below, the above respondent is actually more ignorant than what they may accuse you of being.
1.
2.
3.
4.
Oh and BTW,
In fact, the respondent himself has solicited donations in the past, it would seem...:silly::silly:
Before abandoning that project, as was one of the points in the original post.
So you, dear reader, may choose to ignore such comments. You will find such comments and aggression littered across all custom rom sub forums. But it is not representative of the larger XDA community, I assure you, which is more helpful and forthcoming than this.
***
P.S. Yes, I can code. Been at it more than 8 years now. Not custom roms, of course (otherwise why would I post the article). So much for assumptions of me being a 'noob' and 'not knowing how to code' LOL. :good:
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So you does stalk on my profile and abuse me personally. Bravo ???? wasn't you the one whining about them ?.
And I didn't beg for donations as you can see.
And as far as I can see, "8 years experienced code expert" doesn't seem to have contributed anything to community other than some whining posts about s***.
I don't think you are even worth the reply.
---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 AM ----------
If you don't want to use other developers custom rom. Fine. The device tree is in github. You can easily make one yourself instead of whining. Then only noobs like you would know how hard it is. I don't think you know even to reboot to recovery. ?
karthikkarthik said:
So you does stalk on my profile and abuse me personally. Bravo wasn't you the one whining about them .
And I didn't beg for donations as you can see.
And as far as I can see, "8 years experienced code expert" doesn't seem to have contributed anything to community other than some whining posts about s***.
I don't think you are even worth the reply.
---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 AM ----------
If you don't want to use other developers custom rom. Fine. The device tree is in github. You can easily make one yourself instead of whining. Then only noobs like you would know how hard it is. I don't think you know even to reboot to recovery.
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1. Let's try your own logic of "nobody is forcing you to use custom roms etc etc." I posted something. I didn't ask you personally to read it or comment on it. If you didn't like what you were reading, then you could have have stopped after the first paragraph and left the page. There was no need to start commenting from the very beginning with nothing but assumptions about me and aggression.
Wouldn't this be accurate as per your logic?
2. Which made me wonder....why, when every other respondent seems to be fine with the general ideas mentioned in the OP, you took it so personally and started raging right on a forum thread. It makes sense to me now, since you actually had done some of the things I had mentioned in the OP that I thought were wrong with the custom rom scene (like abandoning projects after donations and commitments etc.,... then making unhelpful aggressive posts and name calling for no reason...exactly my points mentioned in the OP). This obviously is just a theory that I have.
3. Commenting on something that one feels can be improved, is not called whining.
There is a reason why Franco (the kernel dev) called the RN3 community on XDA 'cancer'. I understand fully why.
4. If it helps you sleep better...sure, mate, I don't know how to even boot to recovery. In fact, I just learnt how to tie my shoelaces this morning. It's a miracle! We done now?? :good:
I think the thread here is at risk of taking a turn which it was meant to avoid. Perhaps, the next comments by other people can be on a constructive note. It is my sincere hope that at least some ideas can come, which can make this ecosystem more friendly, more supportive, with a focus on quality checks over the diversity of abandoned custom rom projects.
I also hope that someone can shed more light on this "Official/Unofficial" tags that I mentioned in the OP. Like, how can we make that Official tag more meaningful?
Lineage OS seems to be coming up with something along the lines of minimum set of quality requirements for it to be called Official. Perhaps something like that which is actually tangibly enforceable would be something custom rom users could benefit by.
I kind of agree with OP but of course It's not really a problem with custom ROMs but instead a problem with how messy this forum is and the search function is.. I'm sorry to say almost useless, that results in many questions asked over and over again. And most of the time questions seem to be ignored (even when they are new) but yeah custom ROMs can be amazing and I am thankful for all guys doing work on android but be prepared to be alone with your questions and bugs.. btw, I have had contact with Xiaomi regarding bugs in their ROMs and they ignore just as much I learned how to fix them myself...
vypers said:
1. Let's try your own logic of "nobody is forcing you to use custom roms etc etc." I posted something. I didn't ask you personally to read it or comment on it. If you didn't like what you were reading, then you could have have stopped after the first paragraph and left the page. There was no need to start commenting from the very beginning with nothing but assumptions about me and aggression.
Wouldn't this be accurate as per your logic?
2. Which made me wonder....why, when every other respondent seems to be fine with the general ideas mentioned in the OP, you took it so personally and started raging right on a forum thread. It makes sense to me now, since you actually had done some of the things I had mentioned in the OP that I thought were wrong with the custom rom scene (like abandoning projects after donations and commitments etc.,... then making unhelpful aggressive posts and name calling for no reason...exactly my points mentioned in the OP). This obviously is just a theory that I have.
3. Commenting on something that one feels can be improved, is not called whining.
There is a reason why Franco (the kernel dev) called the RN3 community on XDA 'cancer'. I understand fully why.
4. If it helps you sleep better...sure, mate, I don't know how to even boot to recovery. In fact, I just learnt how to tie my shoelaces this morning. It's a miracle! We done now?? :good:
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Just pathetic. Your not worth wasting my time ?
---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------
And also stop stalking you creep.
karthikkarthik said:
Just pathetic. Your not worth wasting my time
---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------
And also stop stalking you creep.
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1. Please then don't waste your time, and leave this thread alone. (Your own logic of ..don't like custom roms, then leave).
2. From the very beginning, you have done nothing but name calling and assuming things. You continue to do so, proving my points further and further.
Didn't you say I am a "noob". And aren't noobs told to "use the search function" before posting things?? How is then using the search function to find publicly available things creepy??
Every single inconsequential point you have made, since you started raging against me from the first post onwards, for no reason whatsoever, has been proved hypocritical. I think it is only fair that we stop this altercation now. It is leading nowhere.
Good day!
tangoviking said:
I kind of agree with OP but of course It's not really a problem with custom ROMs but instead a problem with how messy this forum is and the search function is.. I'm sorry to say almost useless, that results in many questions asked over and over again. And most of the time questions seem to be ignored (even when they are new) but yeah custom ROMs can be amazing and I am thankful for all guys doing work on android but be prepared to be alone with your questions and bugs.. btw, I have had contact with Xiaomi regarding bugs in their ROMs and they ignore just as much I learned how to fix them myself...
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Yes thank you. People are asked to use search function quite rudely all the time. And I agree, for things like SOT, VoLTE etc etc it's easy to go back a few pages and find the answer. But for more complex queries, although something may have been answered before, the XDA search is inadequate. Google site search is better.
And just to clarify, in case it seems that way, I am in no way saying that developers work less, or that I don't appreciate their efforts. In fact, I am taking my cue from some of the highly regarded devs like xyyx, Franco etc, to suggest that what they do should be done by more devs...like communication, accountability, not vanishing without a word, consistent support, thereby instilling confidence in their users.
Although my immediate concern is with my phone, OnePlus 5, the following remarks may well apply to all phones and all custom ROMs.
Most of us install a custom ROM and root our devices for three reasons: customisation, long(er) battery life and avoiding Google's invasive habits (disable Wakelocks, disable Alarms, debloat, etc.).
To my great disappointment, many of the developers do not care to follow new paths. The result is that most "custom" ROMs are frighteningly similar! Trust me, I have tried more than a few, almost all which are available. Developers borrow features from each other (notice how many acknowledgements there are in the introduction to a "new" ROM) and hasten to include many of the things we are trying to avoid! The result? It is ridiculous to have a "debloater" for "custom" ROMs. But it exists, and it has its own (very well visited) thread.
What does this show? That someone should dare to do some real work and some real research. Please, spend some time learning what does what. Ask Google. They are legally bound to respond.
I am tired of uninstalling crap from my "custom" ROM.
Give us a really slim ROM and, if you like these Google apps so much, tell us what they do and where we can find them if we need them. Yes, true, I know some apps cannot be installed afterwards, but I much prefer to lose some obscure functionality than spending hours uninstalling things from my "custom" ROM. (IFAA's etc. etc.)
Also: it would be nice if you do not choose a messaging app for us. Do not choose a browser for us. Do not choose themes for us. Tell us, instead, where we can find them, where you so diligently stored them awaiting for their lovers. Let us have a really, really, slim ROM.
Why the sudden rush of idiots who can't read the development forum rules?
"Give us"
Apart from this post being totally inappropriate in development thread, it is also arrogant, in my view.
Why don't you ask for your money back instead....
I do not need to respond to a rude comment, which is based on the "forum rules", as if this is some kind of private enterprise which I invaded and defamed. I thought that one of the reasons for the existence of such fora is the free expression of ideas....
So, you have been offended because I said "give us"? What should I say? Go down to my knees and beg? Spare us the semantic acrobatics and respond to the essence of the post, if you think you have something to say. I do not have to be here, neither do you or anyone else, and sarcasm is welcome, if and only if it also touches on the main issues. Otherwise, it is an "ad hominem", unjustified idiocy.
P.S. I am sure that if the contents is inappropriate, some moderator will delete my post.
Anti-root said:
I am sure that if the contents is inappropriate, some moderator will delete my post.
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No one moderates posts, until someone complains. You think moderators are paid salaries?
Being humble is always a big plus in this forum, but you show the opposite. You can freely exchange ideas without being arrogant. Nobody owes you anything, but you behave like an angry consumer, who is not satisfied with a product and wants his money back. So, don't expect anyone to address the 'essence' of your 'idea'..
Learn about compiling a Rom, it's actually not that much of magic as it looks like at first glance. Then learn how to remove the features you don't want, it's also not as difficult if you want to invest a bit of time and brains. Then you can have a Rom that entirely suits your own needs
Anti-root said:
I do not need to respond to a rude comment, which is based on the "forum rules", as if this is some kind of private enterprise which I invaded and defamed. I thought that one of the reasons for the existence of such fora is the free expression of ideas....
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Actually no, a private forum is running based on its own rules, free speech can be performed on a different place.
Anti-root said:
So, you have been offended because I said "give us"? What should I say? Go down to my knees and beg? Spare us the semantic acrobatics and respond to the essence of the post, if you think you have something to say. I do not have to be here, neither do you or anyone else, and sarcasm is welcome, if and only if it also touches on the main issues. Otherwise, it is an "ad hominem", unjustified idiocy.
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Self-entitlement and a demanding attitude is the last thing we want to see here, where the developers are freely sharing stuff with us from their free time, this only entitles us to be respectfull, nothing more
Anti-root said:
P.S. I am sure that if the contents is inappropriate, some moderator will delete my post.
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here you are almost right, I`d close this thread now considering that you`ve got your answer, it was going nowhere anyway and btw I have moved it to the correct area. The OnePlus 5 ROMs, Kernels, Recoveries, & Other Development section where you have been initially posted, is only a development section and not for general talk.