Database Users

What to do using unsupported Rom?

Hi,
What should I do if the rom I am using and really like has disappeared and now is unsupported?
I'm using an AOSP Froyo rom and I can't seem to find any others let alone one which everything works in.
Yes I'm using Cronos Froyo, and I'm an honest user who doesn't care much for xda forums politics.
I've read the comments that the moderators have written in the thread and whilst I understand what they have written, do end users really have to suffer because of a dispute between developers?
Yes I agree in principle that source should be released with the release, but don't other rom devs have a donators only beta testing section before general release for testing which also occurs before source code release? Feeyo as far as I'm aware takes no donations what so ever.
Also, I wonder if the xda moderators have consulted laywers about the GPL as it is a legal document and thus won't be as black and white as it seems. A lot of companies behave not dissimilarly to feeyo and survive the threat of any action.
Beyond this, hero users really owe a lot to feeyo for the couple of months before official 2.1 got released as he was the only dev to get 2.1 working properly with long lasting battery life.

plonkersaurus said:
Hi,
What should I do if the rom I am using and really like has disappeared and now is unsupported?
I'm using an AOSP Froyo rom and I can't seem to find any others let alone one which everything works in.
Yes I'm using Cronos Froyo, and I'm an honest user who doesn't care much for xda forums politics.
I've read the comments that the moderators have written in the thread and whilst I understand what they have written, do end users really have to suffer because of a dispute between developers?
Yes I agree in principle that source should be released with the release, but don't other rom devs have a donators only beta testing section before general release for testing which also occurs before source code release? Feeyo as far as I'm aware takes no donations what so ever.
Also, I wonder if the xda moderators have consulted laywers about the GPL as it is a legal document and thus won't be as black and white as it seems. A lot of companies behave not dissimilarly to feeyo and survive the threat of any action.
Beyond this, hero users really owe a lot to feeyo for the couple of months before official 2.1 got released as he was the only dev to get 2.1 working properly with long lasting battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe he still releases in his forum - just do a google search

nope, it seems his account has been suspended on the domain, not good.

plonkersaurus said:
sing an AOSP Froyo rom and I can't seem to find any others let alone one which everything works in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's AOSP ROMs. Without even plugging my own, there's the Fusion project for a start.

Froyd and Fusion are Cyanogen based roms which I've tried and don't work so well for me.
I'd count them as Vanilla roms not AOSP

Dude. You might as well turn xda into thepiratebay.Breaking a software licence is illegal no matter if the software is proprietary or open source.
Sent from my HTC Hero using XDA App

plonkersaurus said:
Froyd and Fusion are Cyanogen based roms which I've tried and don't work so well for me.
I'd count them as Vanilla roms not AOSP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only non AOSP thing about them is:
They include Google Apps
They include proprietary libs grabbed from the phone to make the phone work.
Guess what, that's what AOSP ROMs do too, the ones released here anyway, since they're largely unusable without Google Apps (Market, etc) and the libs needed to make the phone work.
If you want plain AOSP, you better have an ADP1, ADP2 or a Nexus One. There is no such thing as a pure AOSP Hero ROM.
What people mean when they refer to AOSP, is they yanked the git straight from Android and compiled it for X phone, adding in whatever apps along with the Google apps and the prop libs.
Cyanogenmod is also AOSP in that same sense. Only there's a ton of people working on the repo and fixing stuff that Android don't or haven't yet.
If you've run into a CM based ROM that doesn't work well for you then it's still down to the builder. Chances are if they made an "AOSP" ROM, it'd be even worse.

I'm actually a professional software developer.
The Hero community here, as it is, I would never contribute to, because I wouldn't want my work included into someone elses rom that they then take donations for (I would never ask for donations for my work) especially since there seems to be no pioneering development going on by themselves.
So I see feeyo as someone like me, but with a drive to get things working on the hero.
In my eyes he is a bit like a vigilante or I guess like Batman. What Batman does is illegal too you know.
Sometimes there is such thing as the lesser of two evils and the greater good.
He harmed no one doing what he did.

Hacre said:
The only non AOSP thing about them is:
They include Google Apps
They include proprietary libs grabbed from the phone to make the phone work.
Guess what, that's what AOSP ROMs do too, the ones released here anyway, since they're largely unusable without Google Apps (Market, etc) and the libs needed to make the phone work.
If you want plain AOSP, you better have an ADP1, ADP2 or a Nexus One. There is no such thing as a pure AOSP Hero ROM.
What people mean when they refer to AOSP, is they yanked the git straight from Android and compiled it for X phone, adding in whatever apps along with the Google apps and the prop libs.
Cyanogenmod is also AOSP in that same sense. Only there's a ton of people working on the repo and fixing stuff that Android don't or haven't yet.
If you've run into a CM based ROM that doesn't work well for you then it's still down to the builder. Chances are if they made an "AOSP" ROM, it'd be even worse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cyanogenmod roms change a lot more things than just needed to get android working properly and I'm not a huge fan of all the changes

plonkersaurus said:
Hi,
What should I do if the rom I am using and really like has disappeared and now is unsupported?
.....
Yes I agree in principle that source should be released with the release, but don't other rom devs have a donators only beta testing section before general release for testing which also occurs before source code release? Feeyo as far as I'm aware takes no donations what so ever.
.....
Beyond this, hero users really owe a lot to feeyo for the couple of months before official 2.1 got released as he was the only dev to get 2.1 working properly with long lasting battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1... Switch to another ROM, or stick with what you have, they are your two options.
2... No, other devs do not have a "donators only beta testing section", and regardless if they did or not, I think you need to go and re-read all the info the mods have given about the GPL issue before adding your 2 pence worth.
3... I owe feeyo nothing. He may have produced ROMS, but contribute to the community he did not.
Sent from my HTC Hero using XDA App

plonkersaurus said:
I'm actually a professional software developer.
The Hero community here, as it is, I would never contribute to, because I wouldn't want my work included into someone elses rom that they then take donations for (I would never ask for donations for my work) especially since there seems to be no pioneering development going on by themselves.
So I see feeyo as someone like me, but with a drive to get things working on the hero.
In my eyes he is a bit like a vigilante or I guess like Batman. What Batman does is illegal too you know.
Sometimes there is such thing as the lesser of two evils and the greater good.
He harmed no one doing what he did.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hahaha what. Being a developer doesn't mean you "get" the point of the GPL. Plenty of developers over at Microsoft don't "get" it. That doesn't make it any less valid.
In fact your entire post just screams "I do not understand open source development, what on Earth is wrong with people doing stuff themselves and hoarding it".
The "pioneering development" as you put it doesn't happen by individuals because it happens in groups. You know, lots of minds working towards a common goal.
Jesus on a bike.
EDIT: woah..
plonkersaurus said:
Beyond this, hero users really owe a lot to feeyo for the couple of months before official 2.1 got released as he was the only dev to get 2.1 working properly with long lasting battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I missed this when I first read the OP. Hahaha no he wasn't. Battery life has to be one of the most done to death topics on these forums and do you know what? Your battery life is solely dependent on you the phone user, providing of course the developer or the cooker hasn't done something utterly retarded to the ROM that causes battery to run down.
Until Froyo was released, Cronos wasn't even a compiled ROM it was a precompiled Sense ROM and as such subject to all the whims of the HTC base that the rest of us were.
Oh and I don't owe him anything. Never used his ROM, never benefited from what he apparently gave back to the community (nothing). He owed me and whomever else asked him for it, source code, which happened to be the one thing he never once provided while being happy to make use of source code provided by others.

Hacre said:
Hahaha what. Being a develloper doesn't mean you "get" the point of the GPL. Plenty of developers over at Microsoft don't "get" it. That doesn't make it any less valid.
In fact your entire post just screams "I do not understand open source development, what on Earth is wrong with people doing stuff themselves and hoarding it".
The "pioneering development" as you put it doesn't happen by individuals because it happens in groups. You know, lots of minds working towards a common goal.
Jesus on a bike.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't mention GPL anywhere in my post.
I mentioned that I wouldn't help this community due to the fact people would be accepting donations for what would be in part my work which I think is immoral.
That is what my post was about.
Plus I think you will find Linus wrote Linux by himself so individuals are capable of greatness.

plonkersaurus said:
Plus I think you will find Linus wrote Linux by himself so individuals are capable of greatness.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Re check your history. Linus did not write Linux by himself. He wrote the first kernel by himself. Linux wasn't truly born until he released it along with the source code and people started fixing it, writing drivers for it and writing coreutils/toolchains around it. It didn't approach anything like popular until it got x86 support and the kernel reached a level of maturity in the 2.0.x releases. Collaborative development/debugging. It's an amazing thing. Stunted quickly by the "I will not share" attitude that you're defending and supporting.
I am genuinely curious as to how you can guarantee that people will receive donations for your work. Or why you'd even care. My kernel source tree is used by others, I don't lose a wink of sleep over whether they get donations for their finished ROM or not, it doesn't matter.
Donations are just that, donations. They are not a fee. They are not someone taking someone else's work and then charging for it. They're something that an individual feels that they want to give to someone out of the kindness of their hearts as a thank you as well as the fact that donations are quite a rarity.
I got my first donation today. It'll buy me a few beers. It won't make me rich. I got it for my work on the kernel and my work on the Villain 2.2 ROMs. Have a guess how many people at Villain are now pissy that I got a donation and not the project itself. None. Have a guess how many GNU developers are now hand wringing themselves with pure fret because some guy got bought a beer for some work he did on their code. None.
You didn't have to mention the GPL in your post. The GPL is why these ridiculous threads keep springing up, it was the GPL and the failure to adhere to it, that got Feeyo canned.
People with your attitude toward community development have no place on these forums. Kindly take the door that has a Feeyo shaped hole in it.

plonkersaurus said:
I'm actually a professional software developer.
The Hero community here, as it is, I would never contribute to, because I wouldn't want my work included into someone elses rom that they then take donations for (I would never ask for donations for my work) especially since there seems to be no pioneering development going on by themselves.
So I see feeyo as someone like me, but with a drive to get things working on the hero.
In my eyes he is a bit like a vigilante or I guess like Batman. What Batman does is illegal too you know.
Sometimes there is such thing as the lesser of two evils and the greater good.
He harmed no one doing what he did.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you don't want to share then Android is not for you.
And why the big deal about asking for donations. Its not free to run a site. And a donation is hardly mandatory, the clue is in the name, no-one was bent over and forced to do anything they never wanted to.
I have used Villain on and off since Feb and haven't donated a penny.
.... and Batman? Really? Yes he makes the decisions that no one else can, for the greater good, the bigger picture... he doesn't play hero just to boost his own ego.
Sent from my HTC Hero using XDA App

Hacre said:
EDIT: woah..
I missed this when I first read the OP. Hahaha no he wasn't. Battery life has to be one of the most done to death topics on these forums and do you know what? Your battery life is solely dependent on you the phone user, providing of course the developer or the cooker hasn't done something utterly retarded to the ROM that causes battery to run down.
Until Froyo was released, Cronos wasn't even a compiled ROM it was a precompiled Sense ROM and as such subject to all the whims of the HTC base that the rest of us were.
Oh and I don't owe him anything. Never used his ROM, never benefited from what he apparently gave back to the community (nothing). He owed me and whomever else asked him for it, source code, which happened to be the one thing he never once provided while being happy to make use of source code provided by others.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, so you never used his rom. I did and it was leagues ahead of anything else at the time. It made our phones really usable with 2.1. I remember when it was first released it was in the top 5 threads for a week on the front page of xda so I'm sure I wasn't the only one to experience this.
Also, sometimes it's the way you ask for something. I never once saw you ask for the source code with a view to work with him on it, only to get access to it. I know you are going to spout GPL rules now but I would rather not provide them knowing they will be taken over and most likely I would not be included in development in a "team" way, and rather take the punishment when it came of being banned.

plonkersaurus said:
Also, sometimes it's the way you ask for something. I never once saw you ask for the source code with a view to work with him on it, only to get access to it. I know you are going to spout GPL rules now but I would rather not provide them knowing they will be taken over and most likely I would not be included in development in a "team" way, and rather take the punishment when it came of being banned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My first four or five requests were incredibly polite. There were a plethora of polite request the first time he pulled this stunt too. My reason for asking was irrelevant. However my reason for asking for those particular sources, were twofold:
1: I didn't believe it.
2: If it was true then the community should damn well get access to it so we as a group can get it up to full working order so that EVERY ROM DEVELOPER can make use of it.
Taken over? What? I now don't believe that you're a developer, at least nothing outside pointing and clicking in a GUI based programming tool in some office somewhere, because you clearly have no idea of what collaborative development is. You cannot shut anyone, ANYONE, out of a GPL project, that's the whole frigging point. See my signature? Source code. Source code anyone can take and modify. Source code people are welcome to change, fix, port, patch and if they want to, submit a pull request so I can merge those fixes in.
Click the link. Follow the fork tree. Observe the magic as my changes move upstream to the original cyanogenmod + Hero kernel. Observe further magic as changes they make merge their way down into my kernel. Yeah I/we are really all about shutting people out.
Stop trolling.

plonkersaurus said:
Ok, so you never used his rom. I did and it was leagues ahead of anything else at the time. It made our phones really usable with 2.1. I remember when it was first released it was in the top 5 threads for a week on the front page of xda so I'm sure I wasn't the only one to experience this.
Also, sometimes it's the way you ask for something. I never once saw you ask for the source code with a view to work with him on it, only to get access to it. I know you are going to spout GPL rules now but I would rather not provide them knowing they will be taken over and most likely I would not be included in development in a "team" way, and rather take the punishment when it came of being banned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might be right, maybe they wouldn't have let him be in the team, maybe they would have. Who cares, they would have had to credit it to him either way, just as they credit help from other developers now.
The main point is that he wasn't willing to help push things forward. He wanted all the spotlight for himself.
Sent from my HTC Hero using XDA App

Hacre said:
Re check your history. Linus did not write Linux by himself. He wrote the first kernel by himself. Linux wasn't truly born until he released it along with the source code and people started fixing it, writing drivers for it and writing coreutils/toolchains around it. It didn't approach anything like popular until it got x86 support and the kernel reached a level of maturity in the 2.0.x releases. Collaborative development/debugging. It's an amazing thing. Stunted quickly by the "I will not share" attitude that you're defending and supporting.
I am genuinely curious as to how you can guarantee that people will receive donations for your work. Or why you'd even care. My kernel source tree is used by others, I don't lose a wink of sleep over whether they get donations for their finished ROM or not, it doesn't matter.
Donations are just that, donations. They are not a fee. They are not someone taking someone else's work and then charging for it. They're something that an individual feels that they want to give to someone out of the kindness of their hearts as a thank you as well as the fact that donations are quite a rarity.
I got my first donation today. It'll buy me a few beers. It won't make me rich. I got it for my work on the kernel and my work on the Villain 2.2 ROMs. Have a guess how many people at Villain are now pissy that I got a donation and not the project itself. None. Have a guess how many GNU developers are now hand wringing themselves with pure fret because some guy got bought a beer for some work he did on their code. None.
You didn't have to mention the GPL in your post. The GPL is why these ridiculous threads keep springing up, it was the GPL and the failure to adhere to it, that got Feeyo canned.
People with your attitude toward community development have no place on these forums. Kindly take the door that has a Feeyo shaped hole in it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the problem here is your attitude, you seem to think you own the place. I am free to stay here as I wish as far as I know. I also don't believe you are reading my posts correctly as you seem to think I am against community programming which is further from the truth.
I never said I wouldn't share. I wouldn't share with you. I think community programming is great all things being equal. It seems to me that the hero community here is terrible right now and thus I wouldn't help it.
Getting people banned definitely isn't making you friends either. I honestly never saw you wanting to work with feeyo only to get at his work.
I would have no problem helping out trying to get android to work on the Xperia X1 and supplying my source code as that is a true example of people working together.

Hacre said:
My first four or five requests were incredibly polite. There were a plethora of polite request the first time he pulled this stunt too. My reason for asking was irrelevant. However my reason for asking for those particular sources, were twofold:
1: I didn't believe it.
2: If it was true then the community should damn well get access to it so we as a group can get it up to full working order so that EVERY ROM DEVELOPER can make use of it.
Taken over? What? I now don't believe that you're a developer, at least nothing outside pointing and clicking in a GUI based programming tool in some office somewhere, because you clearly have no idea of what collaborative development is. You cannot shut anyone, ANYONE, out of a GPL project, that's the whole frigging point. See my signature? Source code. Source code anyone can take and modify. Source code people are welcome to change, fix, port, patch and if they want to, submit a pull request so I can merge those fixes in.
Click the link. Follow the fork tree. Observe the magic as my changes move upstream to the original cyanogenmod + Hero kernel. Observe further magic as changes they make merge their way down into my kernel. Yeah I/we are really all about shutting people out.
Stop trolling.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not what I mean by shutting people out. I'm not trolling but replying to your false accusations.
You are also trying to personally discredit me by calling me a point and click GUI programmer which is below the belt. You know nothing about me.
What I mean is, working together as these roms are virtually the same project is about communicating. Something that would not have happened and does in a real collaborative effort.
I'm sick of this thread and having to defend myself because you fail to understand what working together really means. And no it's not just following rules. It's obvious you aren't a professional programmer. People skills and management are just as important as being able to program and that is the point I am trying to get at.

I think you've formed your opinion and regardless of how many times Hacre blows your point out of the water, your not going to be swayed are you. He shouldn't even have to explain himself to you, every point had been covered in the other fan threads already.
Sent from my HTC Hero using XDA App

Xda vibrant section in jeopardy?

Ok, is this *normal* that one by one the devs (jac, kk, sombionix and the rest of tw, and now - eugene373) proclaimed, effectively, that are abandoning (at least to a certain degree) xda? Their personal conflicts (which are unlikely our business) aside, is there anything else that feeds this tendency? In particular, are the xda modes doing enough (or anything at all?) to diffuse and perhaps reverse the trend? Or am I wrong to assume that this would be their business? I witnessed that 90% of (sane) xda members are being as supportive as ever to devs. There are, of course, the challenged ones, but it's the internet. So I don't see anything that regular (sane) members did wrong. And yet the facts are... disturbing.
P.S. Oh, and, after a week of admiring 'wannaby modes' nonsense here, do you mind not telling me that this thread doesn't belong to general or is off-topic? The point of this is to discuss if anything can be done to prevent that many see as an unfortunate trend in *vibrant* section.

I don't know about JAC or KK, because they are the older developers who works on the I9000 model before I even get a chance to visit XDA.
I believe that Team Whiskey moved out because they want to have their own support forum, with dedicated Donator Section for their supporters. Also to provide more ROM specific support for their ROMS.
As for Eugene, I am not too sure, but it may be due to people no respecting his work?
P.S. When did Eugene said that he is 'leaving' XDA?

He never said this. But he explicitly said that he is abandoning specific xda threads (which is, obviously, his full right) and will be posting only on his site.

i can understand this. Its starting to turn into a business, if they want to post their work that they put time into on their own website, that is their full right, and it makes sense. And it shouldnt be that big of a deal, its not that hard to make an account on either of their websites to gain access to their forums. So if they want to make their ROM's a little more private, then i give permission haha

While it's unfortunate, it seems pretty necessary to me. It's impossible to continue to have all discussion on a particular ROM in a single thread. It makes it much harder to find bug reports, for example. So having your own forum and website dedicated to your own ROM makes sense.
Just because they're leaving XDA doesn't mean they're gonna stop coding. And all of the devs know quite well that XDA is the best place to inform people about their ROMs.

Oh well I hope team whiskey makes a mobile app for theyre site
Still flashing , thanks to odin

Just for your knowledge..
KK was banned
JAC well know one knows
But just because most of us are opening our own sites doesnt mean we are going to jump away from XDA.
XDA is a great way to get our names out there..
Our personal sites are just so you guys have all our work in one location & can ask more questions or request features there. (Or that is was I do)

Keeping it classy, o yeah.
XDA is the hub... their sites are the gold mines.
Keep supporting the developers as much as you can, and that Vibrant is going to always be in tip-top form.

Master™ said:
Just for your knowledge..
KK was banned
JAC well know one knows
But just because most of us are opening our own sites doesnt mean we are going to jump away from XDA.
XDA is a great way to get our names out there..
Our personal sites are just so you guys have all our work in one location & can ask more questions or request features there. (Or that is was I do)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I missed what kk was banned for possibly a little before my time here
Still flashing , thanks to odin

I try to keep the Wiki updated with information. Although it is not mine to house hold so if anyone else want to add their 2 cents to the wiki please do so. Eugene just want to post his stuff in his forum for what the other people mentioned. Which is his full right. And is still going to keep tabs on XDA as it is a good place to get together.

reuthermonkey said:
While it's unfortunate, it seems pretty necessary to me. It's impossible to continue to have all discussion on a particular ROM in a single thread. It makes it much harder to find bug reports, for example. So having your own forum and website dedicated to your own ROM makes sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, so maybe the xda mods need to show a bit more flexibility to better accommodate devs needs? Check either TW or Eugene's forums. Essentially, they replicate (nearly 1:1) the structure of xda vibrant sections. I understand that devs want more control over their threads and better organization. But it seems to me that it wouldn’t be that hard to implement the same right here:
A) create a separate sticky for each developer’s project
B) give devs certain mod rights within their threads
Again, I am certainly not against personal web sites, etc. And in no way am I trying to critisize the devs here (obviously it's their right to do whatever they feel like doing!). I am just trying to understand if xda is adopting to the situation. Maybe some small changes at xda can help to prevent the further devs fragmentation. I think nobody would want to see xda becoming just a hub for links to personal sites. Discussion, exchange of ideas, healthy competition (ok, this one may need to be put on hold for a while), comparative reviews like the one that swehes is doing are SO MUCH better when devs are actively participating.
EDIT: Actually, I suspect that if devs had a right to edit their own threads, some (if not most) conflicts would have never become public at the first place.

expressing frustration...

so after reviewing a lot of the threads inside the Nand dev section, i've noticed that a lot of the "big devs" (meaning well known) have been closed for what i feel is crappy reasons...
closing threads due to not showing a kernel source, or GPL license issues... REALLY!? I for one have had my HD2 since it came out, and have been using custom roms which i'm sure there has been these issue since the start and dont CARE what issues may arise out of it, whether its protection for the people downloading and flashing, or maybe to cover the butts of the XDA forums??
Now that a lot of these threads have been closed... MDJ, crawlingcity, and others have abandoned the HD2 dev section. People who have brought TONS of hard work and dedication to the HD2 to make it what it currently is are being "shunned" away for again what "I" feel are dumb reasons... and from what i've read... hardly any warnings have been given. (or if they have been given than maybe not enough time to fix the issues, or new issues are found to make it closed again)
due to these issues the popular UltimateDroid rom has been perm banned. Which i've had nothing but GREAT things from it, and could care less where the darn kernel source comes from...
Honestly as an end user of the nand roms... if it makes my phone usable, stable, fun, and gives me options, I dont personally care what they do with it. Being a custom rom user... its a risk that is WELL known before even starting.
Just figured i'd let out some frustration and see if anyone feels the same, or can fill me in on things I may be "overlooking".
Thanks

As much as i'd like to agree wholeheartedly with your post as i'm also an end user of nand roms...Just as u said, we just want our phones to function as best as it could without caring where the sources come from...Hweva d XDA site & team has rules and in order to benefit from this site, we all (devs included) have to follow its rules...
No one forces us to login and no one forces us to stay...if u feel xda's been operated wrongly then feel free to access other sites...

voncrane said:
No one forces us to login and no one forces us to stay...if u feel xda's been operated wrongly then feel free to access other sites...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never said anything about leaving... not sure where you got that idea.
Anyways... if xda is putting those rules in for protection for their own causes it makes sense. However if the devs are causing issues to themselves then it should be on them, not the posts that they operate that end users can use for either support, or conversing in, instead of opening a new thread.
Prime example would be cyanogens C&D from google, didn't harm xda, but the dev got the issues from it, then changed it when legal issues were at hand.
As i stated, if XDA would be facing legal issues, than it would make sense, but not posting a kernel source, or w/ever reason should be something so trivial to cause a thread close. A lot of devs that have made this phone get this far will no longer be here, and HD2 will suffer, once nothing new emerges and no longer any activity, the inevitable will surely happen one can only assume.

thanks or all informations

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

Tester

Just putting it out there that I would love to be a tester for the Galaxy SII, I have the original one, I have flash and went through 90% of every ROM up for it in both sections the original section and regular section, I just love flashing and going through Roms and would love to just help out someone with there Rom and do whatever it is they need me to do as far as testing, please hit me back. I hope I posted this is the right place if not, I will watch the Noob video 20 times in a row for punishment.

ah ok...... that's an idea

Original SGS II ? No kidding! :|

At first, I thought of this as just a pointless thread - but you got me thinking... What if we were to create a thread where people can nominate themselves as alpha/beta/etc. testers for ROM/Kernel developers? The difference lying in that to be eligible for a position, you'd have to prove that you have basic knowledge of how to recover from, for example, a bootloop, or a device that won't even boot, or constant FCs, etc. etc., along with again, pretty basic ADB knowledge, how to create and restore a NANDroid backup, and things like that. It'd come with the usual disclaimer stating that all responsibilities lie with the user, not the developer, and while the developer may be willing to provide support for bugs, etc., they are not liable for any damage resulting either directly or indirectly from the use of their software.
This would solve two things - it would satisfy those who just can't stand to wait for the release of something, who like to always live on the bleeding edge of development, and it would provide the developers a huge testing platform.
In review, though, this provides to main issues: 1) people would only be able to test one thing at a time, e.g. you're not going to be allowed to test a beta ROM with an alpha kernel, for example - it creates too many variables, and makes it harder for the developers to isolate and fix problems - but this shouldn't be an issue for people, just pick what you want and stick with it, and 2) people who leak the otherwise tester-restricted software for the masses - but this can be solved easily: maintain a list of official testers. Anyone who comes begging for support because they went ahead and flashed some leaked ROM/kernel/whatever, and ended up without a working device without being on the list, can be denied support for breaking the rules. Moreover, they, along with the leaker, could potentially face site-imposed bans?
I'll cut the rambling here, but I think it's a good idea?

As a ROM developer, its a great idea.
Sent from HydrOG3N MOD S2.
Technology Evolves, Android Evolves.
HydrOG3N is THE Revolution.

Thinking about it, not bad idea. But to back sceamworks up a bit, there should be a number of post limit, Some form of history for the dev`s to see who is a Noob (sorry Noobs) and who is not...

I'm in
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

I like the idea and I too would be glad to help people testing there ROMs.
It also seems nice to have a thread where people (like me or the OP) can set them self available for testing.

Most real developers pick their team from watching the threads and see how is willing to put the time in and know how to properly test as well as offer ideas on fixes. But not a bad idea I guess for new rom developers

lodger said:
Thinking about it, not bad idea. But to back sceamworks up a bit, there should be a number of post limit, Some form of history for the dev`s to see who is a Noob (sorry Noobs) and who is not...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree completely, I'd say 50-100 would be a fair starting point? I might PM some devs sometime soon with a proper proposal, and if I get a positive response from a majority of them, I might draft something, and get some official names on-board.
zelendel said:
Most real developers pick their team from watching the threads and see how is willing to put the time in and know how to properly test as well as offer ideas on fixes. But not a bad idea I guess for new rom developers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I considered this, and I think if anything brings the idea down, it'll be that - it's a hard sell to make, and I'd love to say that there's no harm in trying, but really, there is, so I guess execution is everything?

Good idea, im in....