Database Users

Will money be the downfall of open Android development?

It's a serious question.
When I released the MghtyMax series of Sense ROMs, I made it a point not to ask for donations. Not just because the bulk of the framework of those ROMs were Maxisma's code, but because I wanted to freely take as much knowledge as I was giving to the community.
I knew there were users who would want to give, and even got IM's asking where to send money. I always instructed them to send that money to their local food bank or homeless shelter.
Now that Klick has been tarred, feathered, and carried out of town on a pike, I must ask:
Assuming for a moment that Klick was guilty of copying other people's code (and I'm certainly not saying he is guilty, especially since I have not properly reviewed any evidence against him) would anyone have said word one if he hadn't been including a donation link in his posts?
There are some very successful developers here that have tens of thousands of users of their ROMs. At least one likely has over 100k users. Those users add up to a lot of donations. We're not talking chicken scratch here, but the potential to generate some serious capitol.
As with any business venture, an individual or company will go to great lengths to defend their income stream. When you are talking about proprietary designs, and copyrighted intellectual property, it's only natural for the owner of said designs or property to defend their work from imitation, alteration, and redistribution under a different brand/name.
However, we're not talking about private intellectual property here, are we? No, we're talking about open source code, released by the Android Open Source Project under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 generic license.
Even if he was indeed guilty of using someone else's base code, there was no law broken. So why all the hubbub?
Honestly, I think it was money.
When there is the potential to make thousands, tens of thousands, or possibly even hundreds of thousands of dollars in "donations", people are going to become very possessive of their "market share".
If donations to developers didn't exist, my guess is none of this bickering would be happening at all. One developer could happily take another dev's code, modify it, re-release it, and another dev could come along and modify that.
Nobody would complain because there would be nothing to lose. Developers would be releasing code for the sole purpose of enhancing the development community, instead of lining their pockets with currency.
Why would anyone care, as long as the code was being enriched, and the end result was better programming for all? Wasn't this the point of open development?
I know this post will be very unpopular with some, but I think we've let the money changers overrun the temple. I think this trend of asking for donations will only slow the open development of code, and encourage those with large followings to do what ever it takes to crush perceived competition.
The above paragraph may have just made me the pariah of the entire development community, but I really don't give a damn. I honestly believe the community would be far better off without money being involved at all. It is because of this belief that I encourage the management of XDA to permanently ban all requests for donations, be they for ROM development, APP development, or any other purpose.
I firmly believe that by removing money from the equation, we will see a much more rich and diverse development community, with developers willing to enjoy an open exchange of ideas.

But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
Then toy have the people who download a rom from elsewhere, change the build.prop, maybe theme it a little if they are bored, upload it elsewhere and say "Hey donate for my work on the rom" when the reality is its not their work, nor are they worth (most of the time) running.
I think people are complaining about people in the third group, not the first two.

I've been trying to figure out what all this craziness has been about in the dev forum. I literally only browse it for my own personal selfish reasons. To get the best roms and enjoy my G1.
At the end of the day Mghtyred is ultimately right. Regardless of stolen code or not, it's all free and open source. I could definitely understand how this could upset a lot of people, but that cracks me up. I'm going to go out on a really safe looking limb here and say that most people that frequent these forums are probably pirates and download stuff constantly. But when it comes to money in their own pockets then the situation change drastically. That kind of hypocrisy is disgusting.
Especially when it leads to someone getting booted over something ultimately so petty as far as the internet is concerned. Just a bunch of egos fighting over the spotlight. Which is ultimately pretty useless when in reality the vast majority of the people who actually use your roms don't care who made it, they just want the best one out there.
Isn't money always the downfall of everything? Unfortunately it looks like it's really starting to take it's toll on this community. I'm a very new Android user but since day one of coming to these forums I always knew something sinister was up but I just had no idea why.
Perusing most threads in the dev forum, especially on the first page of each thread, you end up seeing mostly character assassination attempts being made at the thread poster. "You didn't do this," "that isn't yours" but all those comments meant nothing to us new guys or the guys that only cared about the end product, the roms.
Basically what I'm saying is, internet, I love you but get over yourself.

I'm mostly a lurker, I don't post very much here, mostly due to the fact that I'm not an Android dev...
Having been member of various MOD communities since the late 90's, it's not just the donations/money that devs are worried about (though, donations/money IS a problem), it's all about bragging rights and "being known" or "popular" in the community. When someone spends any significant amount of time working on projects such as these, they want to be recognized within (and outside of) the community as the one(s) who brought the project to life... When someone downloads your work, makes a few insignificant changes and then releases it as his own work, the original dev(s) have the right to be angry... I'm not saying ALL devs are like this (many simply do not care to be known within the community, they just want to help), but many of them are.
I for one am thankful for all the hard work devs do, if it wasn't for them, we'd be stuck with the stock ROMs... Groups like Cyanogen's team are what a community should be, everyone putting their ideas/changes/fixes into 1 big pot to make the best ROMs possible, instead of having 20 different ROMs from various devs... Although yes, choice is good, it also limits the quality of the ROMs in question, if there was 3-4 core groups with 4-5 devs in each group all working together to bring excellent ROMs to the table, we'd be much better off.
It just seems that people don't get what a community is all about, it's to share ideas/code so we ALL benefit from it, devs and users alike.
Of course, this is just my humble opinion, different communities have different ideas/people who make these communities what they are.

Well, in my opinion Android is open-source.. Yes. But when people use skills that they have to improve on Android development for our older phone is just peachy.
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
Most people seem to think he is innocent as Android is open source, open source yes but, we have rights to those codes, then when people release their modified/hacked version its alright (open source affect). As I said above the problem begins when people take other people's work and label it as their own.

Blackman778g said:
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
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Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?

dezvous said:
Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop

vixsandlee said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop
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So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.

People need to get off of their "Open Source" high horse if they don't understand the law.
AOSP is open source (at least most of it, there are still several necessary blobs), and the code there is freely available to anybody. However, the work produced from AOSP is anything but free.
Most of AOSP is released under a very permissive Apache 2.0 license. Under this license, any modification to the code is the property of the programmer to release as they wish. Had I wanted it that way, I could have released my whole build under a very mean license that would relentlessly pursue anybody who dared post even a single part of my release anywhere else. If one of those md5s matches, there'd be problem.
Also, the license allows me to release the rom without having to release the source (like the GPL does), so basically, Android is free and open source, but only referring to the code you download from AOSP, not any half-assed code that any random joe puts up online. So, from that standpoint, NO, ANDROID IS NOT OPEN SOURCE AND EVERYBODY'S PROPERTY.
Also, how can somebody let the "Open Source" and "people's property" and "law" words out of their mouths when they take no heed to the shameless stealing of google's, htc's, and qualcomm's (plus others') IP that's being pushed ON EVERY SINGLE ROM, WINMO, ANDROID, OR ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS WHOLE FORUM!!!!.
I dare anybody to show me their license to re-distribute all code from all involved companies.
"But, android is free, isn't it?"
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Guess what an android build with nothing but free parts would look like?
Remember those broken SDK builds where nothing worked, there was no radio, no gapps, no audio?
That's the current state of "open source"...
It has nothing to do with the state of the legality of distributions. In fact, the whole thing is ridiculous, for example, where a certain mod who I won't name went on a holy quest against QuickOffice calling it "warez" but shamelessly ignored that pretty much everything else on the Dream forum, hell, on the whole site, is nothing but a big stinking pile of warez. I still wonder what that one was about...
vixsandlee said:
But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
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Here's the real problem with XDA; all those people thinking "Oh devs are some sort of god, they make the best things, we're not worthy, I'm dumb and I can't contribute, so I'll just send some money".
Guess what? Now you're really being stupid. Any dumb chap can put the effort, with enough dedication, to make their own personal builds. Most of us doing this are geeks, a lot of us are a-holes, and I could assure you that the vast majority of us could give two f**cks if that thing you flashed is boot-looping even though it worked for us. As far as we're concerned, you screwed up and should have read better.
We weren't born tied to a computer. We had to work for what we know, and if you people want to be a retard and give money for something easy, then that's up to you, but you all really have to stop that dumb attitude that "devs" are somehow better than you. Only difference is that this is where we decided to put our interest at.
Now, this brings me back to topic. So, what if some guy took my build. I could have done something about it. I certainly did have the legal ease to do so. Turns out, I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other. You people are paying too much attention to trivialities. You're trying to put this on some sort of clash of the giants where guys are either good guys or bad guys. You're judging a "dev"'s personal qualities based on the quality of their work. If they pull up an underhanded, kangilistic build, then you judge them.
I can assure you that the makers of the most "stable", most "fastest", most popular build out there are as much douchebags as you, me, or anybody else is.

Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.

It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.

lbcoder said:
It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.
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I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?

So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.

dezvous said:
So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.
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It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").

I thought we were mostly pissed because he only "deved" until he got enough money for a new phone, then just quit. When he needed the next new phone, here he comes again. Never really kept up with King and his shenanigans. Honestly, all his builds sucked to me. They all bootlooped if I didn't have apps2sd. Nty.
macsbac said:
I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?
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Yes, quit talking about the guy likes he's ****ing God. Excuse my french, but everyone acts like cyanogen fell from the sky on a golden comet from Mars. He's a great dev, no doubt, and I'm not bashing him. However, he is a human, you know that, right? If he ever stole source and claimed it as his, I'm sure the mods would do their job and the same thing would happen. However, that's not the case here and that argument of "if he did it i bet nothing would happen" should have died out in fourth third grade.

lbcoder said:
It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").
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This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.

A lot of interesting posts here, I'm enjoying this discussion. Glad I started it.

macsbac said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.
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You really got the wrong end of the stick and ran with it. Calm down. KingKlick is no loss to this community, we can all use winzip.

macsbac said:
So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.
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Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
macsbac said:
Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.
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Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?

Blackman778g said:
Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
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As for the reason, i have evidence he intentionally copied at least 2 Roms from respectable Android developers, renamed the and called them his own.
I dont have time, due too work, no internet at work
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Strange that because the moderators are only questioning two ROMs. The only one they mention is that of Jebah's and he has made his position quite clear repeatedly. Yes many, many ROMs from most developers do not credit others and its not a problem unless the creator of the original ROM complains as per rule 12.
Blackman778g said:
Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?
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Really the truth
He isn't banned at the moment, for later today, will be sending him a PM to open a thread in PUBLIC and explain himself.
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Again KingKlick was clearly locked a day before any moderator even PM'd and the moderator in question Mikey1022 clearly let his intentions be known before KingKlick was asked to explain, before Jebah made any complaint and then made some bogus allegations about donations as an excuse to break the forums own rules.
Why public?? For the simple reason.........he kept shoving a donation link in every thread he created, unlike the other developers, he copy-catted from.
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Despite KingKlick being forced to put a donation link into every signature as defined in xda rules. Effectively Mikey1022 is punishing KingKlick here for following xda rules.
We can not/should not allow developers coping roms, collecting money on others hard work. As he calls it his own.
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Yet I want Mikey1022 to post a quote or link to where KingKlick called this ROM his own. Or where he asked for a donation for this ROM specifically. Somehow I think he will fail to respond to this post as the others when I asked the same questions.
A couple mods on here know about King and his crap he has been pulling off, so it's not a big surprise.
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Then the clear bias continues and the decision to ban KingKlick was pre-empted before any sort of truth was established. The main one being Jubah had no problem with KingKlick using his ROM and did not raise any concerns with an XDA moderator. As such no rule was broken and issue should have been dropped in lines with xda rules. Again who raised the complaint? nobody knows. For the extreme public castration of KingKlick Mikey1022 and his fellow mods have kept quiet, why have they not even told the community what KingKlicks punishment is or given any reason for it?
Do you think its a coincidence that this complaint was apparently raised when KingKlick refused to become butt buddies with cyanogen or be on "team douche". That cyanogen lost the bap with a post full of explicit language used in a direct insult in violation of xda rules. No public castration there though and I have to ask why? Then I can ask why some of cyanogens dogs of can admit to starting flame wars directed a KingKlick for a sustained period of time and yet this clear violation of rules led to no public castration. How further after 3 days of flaming and direct insults firerat even as good as admits his aim is to remove KingKlick from the xda community yet again no public castration there.
These people say KingKlicks ROMs are just renamed zips that's ok but as a 32b owner and constant ROM flasher why do KingKlicks roms always run better on my device than the others.
Its almost unbelievable that a forum I have been following for a while now can allow a group of developers to exclude another developer from an open source project. Its much more vile than anything KingKlick has been accused of. The moderators of this forum should be hanging their heads in shame.

Kingxklick AOSP ROM!!!

King is almost done with his AOSP rom....looks incredible from what i can see...check out his site and go to the forums for more details......
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

Hmm... how long til this thread gets closed too?
Hey... This thing makes phone calls too!

JTNiggle said:
Hmm... how long til this thread gets closed too?
Hey... This thing makes phone calls too!
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Yep this is the same guy posting garbage about getting update to GB on his Nexus. I recognize this fool by his exclamation marks.

kamasi36 said:
Yep this is the same guy posting garbage about getting update to GB on his Nexus. I recognize this fool by his exclamation marks.
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Ok so the guy got banned. Does that mean anything related to his work is forbidden on XDA?
Sent while sitting on the toilet.

I'm sure he will charge people to use his work and get support because of course he made it from scratch with no help..

MrDSL said:
I'm sure he will charge people to use his work and get support because of course he made it from scratch with no help..
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this ! <--- THIS !!

I sort of like sense, until the level of the android integration changes, as it's supposed to ˜32 for GB. Last I saw king was sorting it out and testing the wifi stuff.
The issue with all of android development is the "glue" which holds the pieces together. The changes in frameworks (new releases..) necessitates changes in the "glue". So whether it's changes to arguments, changes to calls, changes to tunnels / pipes, semaphores, locks, all these take work. Code does not compile and test itself, yet (lol). So a system integrator, which is what devs do, earns its (non-sexist) keep by using other peoples / coders stuff.
Vision is what all the devs have. Vision to see how the pieces should fit together. So I support his sorry ass, till this site comes to the same realization. I also support others. I fully appreciate their work and effort. How can people expect code for free? F off the devs are entitled to remuneration. Supporters fill the niche of testers, I almost wish the stuff was first given, then issued to supporters. As it is, we test, you benefit, back asswords...
So Kings AOSP rom is in his forum and he has done bunch of stuff to make it work. Decadence, Flipz, Birdman, Hill, Koush, Cyanogen, Amon_RA, Hero_over, KingX, and everybody else who "devs" should be names you remember at this start of a new genera of personal computing. Stories to tell your kids... "see that xxx on the TV, that's my software."
BTW if google is going to compete with MS, it had better start funding.
I am amazed that these people provide stuff, and people have the gall to comment on them, IT'S THE CODE, not the coder.

Amen.
Lotsa small minded folks... gotta coddle em', cajole' em, and hope that the code/Roms themselves take centerstage.. not they're drama.

The site in question requires registration for most downloads and requires donations as well for certain things (aka selling).
I am sorry, but I will have to close this thread.

Devs, Please don't hide your Known Issues

I really don't want this to come across wrong, but I just have to say it.
Developers, I appreciate all your hard work. I understand this is all beta/test/etc. I understand it is free of cost, even to those who did donate to one dev or another. You do it because you want to, not because you have to.
But please, for the love of all that's good - keep an updated list of Known Issues!
It sucks having to read 50 pages of posts to try to figure out if a particular release is reliable or not, to find out if there's a key feature broken or buggy. What makes it worse is you can't tell when reading these threads which users are on which release, because many still post issues after they've been resolved. Others post things that aren't really "issues" but user error.
You know what your issues are, you read the threads and you fix the issues. But trying to find a decent rom to flash is very, very difficult when your OP says "No known problems" and the thread that follows show that to be very untrue. It generates a lot of extra posts with people posting things you already know about, and it generates a lot of bad will when someone flashes something only to find that there are a number of game breaking issues.
All it takes is to update a post, say #2, in your thread, with KNOWN ISSUES. Once you confirm a bug, whether you intend to fix it on your next release or not, add it to that thread. It helps you, as a dev keep track of the bug, and it helps potential downloaders know what bugs have been confirmed and make an educated decision as to whether they want to install your release.
Hiding known issues is something I don't think anyone does intentionally, but it feels that way sometimes. It feels like devs are in a popularity contest, and any admission of flaws in their particular ROM is a weakness. Well, to tell the truth, I and many others are sick of installing something that was CLAIMED to be working perfectly, only to have glaring problems that have been there for many versions.
For a civil and productive development community. Please. Be honest with your known issues. It will go a long way in building trust with the people who you're providing ROMs to, and will mean fewer posts for YOU to wade through of users reporting known issues, without having read 500 posts first.

I have a hard time believing that most devs actively hide them. Most of the time it's probably just a bit of laziness. But, yes, it would be helpful when comparing roms if the descriptions had a well-maintained list of active bugs.

Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
The other issue is the people flashing these roms, coming from Eugene's to Whiskey to the ASOP roms may generate some ghosts in the software that the developers cannot duplicate themselves. I know that when I went with the TW 2.2 roms I had plenty of issues, more issues than I have had even when I was stock. Odining back to stock and reflashing the 4.2 TW fixed ALL my problems. Dont know what caused it but since I have flashed a couple of roms prior to that (no problems), I will assume there were some ghosts in my system. This is an example that unless a TW team member is holding MY phone and working on it, they may not be able to duplicate

They don't care to list them. It's beneath some of them.

Maybe AirBus should list "midair exploding engines" as a known issue too...
kponti said:
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. Hell, at work I run a $100,000.00+ software suite and even that company won't do what the OP suggests!

If you have a problem with them stop using their roms go back to stock and see how much better theirs is even with a few bugs, not one of you has any right to complain. They do damn good work for free with some donations that do not come close to what they should be paid for it but they do not whine at all.

The problem I find is the "spammy" and useless comments average and pretentious users make which is both hard for the developer and the end user to read the threads. A dev releases a ROM and there is a guaranteed "Oh I can't wait to flash this" comment that will pop up. And there are some issues that are minor and are sometimes not related to the release that are posted and some pretentious loser who extends his ego by trying to make simple matters complicated. This forum didn't much of this problem before and I could quickly flash ROMs easily since I could clearly grasp the status on the ROM project.

I wish they would start a new thread with new releases. It's a pain to try to read through a 500 page thread, and you comments about this or that, and you have no idea which version the person is talking about. I gave up on custom roms and just using the leaked tmo 2.2, thanks for that Eugene

kponti said:
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
The other issue is the people flashing these roms, coming from Eugene's to Whiskey to the ASOP roms may generate some ghosts in the software that the developers cannot duplicate themselves. I know that when I went with the TW 2.2 roms I had plenty of issues, more issues than I have had even when I was stock. Odining back to stock and reflashing the 4.2 TW fixed ALL my problems. Dont know what caused it but since I have flashed a couple of roms prior to that (no problems), I will assume there were some ghosts in my system. This is an example that unless a TW team member is holding MY phone and working on it, they may not be able to duplicate
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A $20 donation is not worth the risk of bricking a $550 phone just because they got "lazy" and didn't notify donators/downloaders of [a] potentially show-stopping issue.

Posted a new Thread in Dev section for the purpose of reporting issues. So if you have an issue please shoot it to me and I will post it in that thread.
Update: Here is the link for the WIKI page.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs

swehes said:
Posted a new Thread in Dev section for the purpose of reporting issues. So if you have an issue please shoot it to me and I will post it in that thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are in a heap of trouble, a lot of people don't read, and you are gonna get 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 repeats of the same issue.
"OMG! MY SD CAR DONES"T MOUNT< HELP ME!11!!111"

chui101 said:
I have a hard time believing that most devs actively hide them. Most of the time it's probably just a bit of laziness. But, yes, it would be helpful when comparing roms if the descriptions had a well-maintained list of active bugs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The issue here is really that a forum is not the ideal place to manage software releases. A list of bugs emerges from community testing, but there's nowhere to "post" that list of issues, or attach it to a specific release. Since there's no way for the community to add such documentation, it falls on the ROM builder, who probably has other priorities.
This kind of project could be well served by using a real software project management software solution, such as say google code, which has an issue tracker and other useful features. But XDA does already give us a better tool than the forum - the XDA wiki!
I wish people would use the XDA wiki more extensively. This would be a good place to keep updated documentation such as this, without requiring the OP to keep a forum post updated with the latest findings. All the OP needs to do is link to the wiki page, and other people can help maintain it.

OK. Looking into Google Code.
(Update) So looking into the Google Code. What Licensing agreement are the ROMs under? Is it GPL v2 or v3 or another license?

swehes said:
OK. Looking into Google Code.
(Update) So looking into the Google Code. What Licensing agreement are the ROMs under? Is it GPL v2 or v3 or another license?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Depends on the project. The Linux kernel is GPLv2, so any kernels fall under that license. AOSP as a whole uses both GPL and apache code.
The issue with ROMs is that unless they're AOSP derived (like cyanogenmod) they often include binaries for which the license situation is murky at best, so google code isn't really an ideal fit for a "ROM" that's only ever released as a binary.
Really I was throwing google code out there as a well known example, there are tons of other ways to track issues. There are dedicated issue tracking systems such as trac, bugzilla, etc, but they require hosting. Most of the freely available hosted services require that you're running an open source project, which isn't necessarily true for the ROMs here.
IMO a serious project could very well benefit from such tools, but just using an XDA wiki page which community members can freely update is a great first step.

So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs

swehes said:
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to be the "Spelling Nazi", and I am not even sure if you can change it, but it is "Kernel" not "Kernal". Also, the Dev on Team Whiskey is Sombionix, not Symbionix.
Otherwise, that looks like a great idea, and possible way of tracking things!
EDIT - I guess I could go ahead and make those tweaks, with it being a wiki and all couldn't I....
EDIT EDIT - Fixed it.

Stargazer3777 said:
Not to be the "Spelling Nazi", and I am not even sure if you can change it, but it is "Kernel" not "Kernal". Also, the Dev on Team Whiskey is Sombionix, not Symbionix.
Otherwise, that looks like a great idea, and possible way of tracking things!
EDIT - I guess I could go ahead and make those tweaks, with it being a wiki and all couldn't I....
EDIT EDIT - Fixed it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. On both accounts.

Maybe this should be a post to Microsoft
To quote "there are known, unknowns and unknown, knowns and and even sometimes unknown,unknowns............but.........
Developers ----develop they do not become a bookkeeper of their development.........that is coordinating work...........good luck getting any developer in ANY Specialty to do that............. reporting bugs........
---Maybe this should be a post to Microsoft---

N8ter said:
A $20 donation is not worth the risk of bricking a $550 phone just because they got "lazy" and didn't notify donators/downloaders of [a] potentially show-stopping issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to see a REAL (completely dead) "bricked" vibrant from flashing a released Rom alone. I have seen a lot of user error cause boot loops or "soft-bricks" & HWL phones become unflashable because the end user didn't take the time to research though. As far as devs being "lazy" I dont really see that when the developer is coming here for us to tell him what else we find wrong. They are coding, you flash, you report back with a logcat. This is how development is made to my understanding. If ppl are to lazy to JUST do this then why shouldn't the developer discount long winded post or something they are not experiencing? If they know there is a bug its in the OP.
If you guys can change the interwebz & how 500 post per update are made completely useless please feel free to do so....

swehes said:
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it's a pretty awesome start for sure
As a matter of personal taste, I think having an individual wiki page per ROM (with the known issues and other detailed info) might be nice, although I'm not sure what the policy on new pages is with the XDA wiki.
Speaking from professional experience, the most challenging aspect of any documentation system is always convincing people to use it. It's great to compile the information, but unless ROM builders and devs post a link to the wiki in the forum threads nobody will ever see it. Having good, community based documentation is a benefit to everybody though, so hopefully people will recognize the utility of it and encourage its growth!

Devs that quit: who's to blame?

The thought popped up in my head this morning. I remembered Eugene, the developer of the Macnut ROM, who no longer supported XDA. Then another dev, jellette, that quit for reasons I can't quite understand. Who's to blame for these developers quitting the scene, or only providing ROMs on other sites?
I'm a 16 year old high school student in San Francisco. I've been lurking the forums ever since I got my Vibrant and my friend directed me here. I'm not at all new to hacks like these, I've been participating in communities and actions like these since I was 12. I never found a reason to become closely connected within this community, though. It's not a small group, it's a much larger one, and I don't have any place to fit in. This is one of my first posts, and it's one that I feel I need to share with the community: my thoughts and beliefs on the whole situation about devs that no longer support XDA or flat out quit.
Let's cover some ground first:
These devs are not paid. They make these ROMs, custom kernels, and other mods in their spare time. The only money they make off these ROMs comes from donations, and some devs don't ask for donations anyway.
The users are not paying for this work. The users don't need to give feedback, however they are permitted and allowed to comment, criticize, or help the developers in any way.
The trade made here is obviously unfair: give nothing, get something. In many cases, get a great piece of work for your phone that will make it blazing fast and give it features and functionality unheard of to other users of the same phone. The devs are ok with this though, as they freely release their work without a price tag.
However, there are some things devs are not ok with. I can't speak for each and every single developer, but having once done development in my own time as well, I can say the one thing that really aggravates all developers, and all people even, is when your work goes unnoticed, or worse yet, gets disrespected. When some bombarding, ignorant user comes along and rips apart your hard work, what are you to do? "This ROM is utterly horrible, you should've put more work into it before releasing this paperweight." Maybe a bit over the top, but it gets the point across, and it's from this that a developer will most likely quit XDA as he sees fit.
So what can we say about the users, the freeloaders? Some decency is expected of all of us, basically. That's the lesson every user should know: respect those that give you what you get. They're not robots that work endlessly with nothing better to do. These are people, hard working men and women who spend hours on end making software for you. Give them your respect. Constructive criticism is nice, but never go so far as to demote them as a person. If you want their respect, you must give them respect. Make them feel welcome and they will continue to work for the entire community. It's simple, human nature.
As for developers, are they in the right place to quit under these grounds? There is no set ground for quitting. Each person sees fit at what time he or she should quit working, in any case: as a dev, as an employee, as anyone. People need to know their limits, and they do know their limits. As a free working developer, they have a lot more liberty in deciding when they want to stop working for the community. Even someone who didn't feel accused or demoted could leave for no reason and it wouldn't affect them as much as if they had left their full-time paying job. This is not a source of revenue, it's not a source of anything, in fact.
One thing devs should know, and this is coming straight from me, is that as someone who releases work on the forums, your name will be known, and it's wise that you build a public image for yourself. Quitting without reason, without a post to describe your feelings, to express concerns or thoughts on the community or whatever else you'd like to mention, does not help build a good public image. You are at liberty to do as you please, that's your free choice, but people will judge you based on your actions. Throwing yourself into a position as such, as a chef, comes with more than just giving out work. It comes with the comments users will give you. It's good to be able to politically conduct yourself, to create a good public image, which will ultimately help you avoid the negative comments the public makes.
In conclusion:
Users: Be respectful, have some common decency. This is for all of us, not just those who don't get it. It's a rule we should all know. Developers are humans, just like us. Respect them as such.
Developers/chefs: You are free to do what you like. Quit as you please, continue as you please, no one will stop you. It is, however, important to make a good public image. Not necessary, but important. Conduct yourself in a political manner, because us users see you as a strong force, not just as a person. Be ready to make a good public image.
I want to know your thoughts on this. I feel it's important that this ground is covered, and that we come to a general consensus on this. The more you know, the better off you are. The more we all know, the better off we will all be.

if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.

xriderx66 said:
if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second that...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.

I agree with you 100% in partucular regarding the users.
I came to this forum looking for support, trying to get the GPS working on my Vibrant.
Before I posted or did anything I read many threads and researched what it meant to use Odin and to root the phone and flash a rom and to recover from a problem before I even started anything. When I did I was fully aware that I and I alone, was responsible for anything that happened to my phone. I am continually amazed at how some people jump in, without a clue as to what they are doing, then seem to try to blame the developers for their problems. Then you have the group who complain about colors or a boot animation or a "missing" app on a rom they got for free. Simply amazing the entitlement people have over something that someone puts out there for them to try to improve their phone for free.
I can understand how the devs could get fed up with these sorts of actions. It can take a pretty thick skin to deal with all the stuff I see going on here.

It is like a preschool in here...just get used to it.
Life will go on, and someone will always be making roms--herds are pathetic, individuals are lost inside said herds. Keep your ears open and your mouth shut.
My $0.02

No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.

ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...

I have plenty of respect for the few guys who make a few useful programs, and I don't think I've ever bashed a dev's work openly. But:
ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
/Twerd.
Gotta give respect to receive, and some devs just think they are God's gift to Captain Taco. It's the Internet - no one gets respect on the 'tubes. Who gives a ****. The growing up really neds to happen on the part of most of these "I'm pouty b/c someone said something crass about some weekend work I did" "developers."
Drewstein said:
I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
-bZj

Agree ...........great post clear concise and to the point. Funny, that a 16 year old can articulate the basics of good behavior that most in here do not practice. I do not blame a lot of the devs leaving, people rag on their work give nothing but complaints..... as if they have the skill (yeah right).People will eagerly wait 10 min in a Starbucks line, pay 5.00 for a coffee and never donate to the dev, XDA or anything........then complain when the custom rom they got for free doesn't work the WAY they like or want......... talk about selfish irony...........
Great post !! kevipapo1 (from a guy old enough to be your grandpa )

i agree with it. people need to remember that without dev. we would all be running stock

If master leaves I'll suicide.
I hope ur reading this, master

Unfortunately this is the interwebz and this is has its been in any android forum I've ventured through. As you are young, but yet seem to be fairly wise, I say to you "welcome to the world my friend!"

Very good post.
Most criticism is from lack of knowledge/education. People don't understand how difficult it is to develop a ROM. So they criticise what they don't understand because it inconveniences them.
However, I will disagree somewhat with developer criticism. Although, I don't agree with the way Master handled the situation, I can relate.
I believe it is very important for us to realize that ROM developers are not public figures. They have the freedom to stop and start as they please. Their passion is development, after all, not public relations.
Kudos OP. Excellent post!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I just want to say thanks to all Developers here at XDA. Without you and your ROMS or tweaks i wouldn't have the great phone i have today that i spent my hard earned money on, and to the immature people if something doesn't work right on a ROM insted of being an ASS!!! and saying how crappy it is say whats wrong and they will fix it they have for me.
Again thanks to all who have helped you don't even know me but you all are ready to help at anytime day or night.
GARY

I personally am 15 and have been in xda since 13
I appreciate the devs for all their work if it wasn't for them i would have killed myself with many frustrations of a stock vibrant
I hate that some are immature and that some get really irritating i understand that some are new but some just get on nerves.
I wish eugene came back because he was.one of the first devs here
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

This is a great post & I echo the op's sentiments. This forum and the devs that contribute to it are a phenomenal resource to all of us and deserve to be treated with respect as we all do. The real shame is that a 16 yr old realizes this more than most of us adults (some of which are in name only). I've been in these forums for only a short time and the amount of immaturity, cynacism and deconstructive criticism I have seen is truly apalling and frankly I'm suprised more haven't bailed. I guess the Golden Rule isn't important when you've got the anonymity of the internet.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

Lethal_NFS said:
I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because someone is childish does NOT mean that they are a child.
I've seen many adults that throw a tantrum worse than a 5 year old and many 5 year olds who act like they're going on 30.
Likely their age has nothing to do with it & its just a reflection of their random genetics and/or crappy parenting.
down8 said:
McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If its an issue, then xda should make a max image/sig size (like you mentioned other sites do). That simple.
Most of his signature tells you to search & read the XDA rules before posting, not really bad advice & since he has to answer questions from many people who don't do either, I can't really blame him.
It would be a LOT more aesthetically pleasing if it were text only, but since XDA allows it, I don't really have a problem with it.
Most of the devs have developed a bit of an attitude (I've seen it from Eugene, SomBionix, Master, and a few others) because of the crap they have to deal with & XDA not enforcing their own rules (this is supposed to have changed after the town hall meeting).

i have been on xda since 2005, left came back etc etc, i do minor edits and coding here and there for myself because i dont have the time like these other people. but honestly most people need to get over themselves. this is a strong community and will live on without you. that said this community has made some people millionaires and others just brats who want the limelight. the idea behind this site is to take the software into our own hands. its us vs. corporations. if devs want to leave cool stfu about it and go but keep in mind that unless you have a contributed to the community dont complain about someones work. devs know what come when you start producing products. its the same that companys deal with. most leave because they get their feelings hurt. its not like people are stalking you and breaking your kneecaps because angry birds wouldnt play during their lunchbreak. ignore the negative and stay or wine and leave. but this place or any place wont change. the more successful you get the harder your skin must be

About me and why it all got under my skin.
James / jellette / Heathen
39 year old, married, father of 3
<Edited out line, too personal>
I look around and see Darky, Doc, Jim, Eugene, TW and everyone else doing Gingerbread clones - and they aren't called "Copy Cat" - but when I do it I am. That makes a guy pretty darn mad.
I set out to do the latest Rom 100% from scratch without drawing from the work of any existing Rom specifically because of my relationship with TW. The takers out there have no idea how much work goes into doing that.
Here was and continues to be the process with PepperKake.
1. Download the JL5 Rom from samfirmware.com
2. Odin to get a feel for the new firmware.
3. Rip the files from factoryfs.rfs
4. Release the first flashable Odexed recovery safe JL5 by 30 minutes
5. Deodex the apps and jars - on this build I was unsuccessful deodexing swype and I used krylon360's swype and credited him for that.
6. Download the Nexus S dump
7. Pull all of the images I needed out of framework-res.apk and SystemUi.apk and the original bootanimation.zip and the icon out of every matching Gingerbread app
8. Carefully build the theme, re-mod the Gingerbread Launcher and create the faux crt shutdown sequence.
9. Rip the gps files from the Nexus S dump including permissions for gps and maps and restructure JL5 to call these files
10. Replace with 3E recovery, ensure the sdcard mounts, etc..
11. Flash and fix 219 times until it is 99% bug free and ready for an Alpha release.
As you can see, this is not a weekend cooked rom as put earlier in the thread.
I update my roms usually once a day until it is complete, I fulfill requests for kernel flash packs for the rom, etc..
I did get pretty angry and pulled my roms - I later replaced the most recent rom. I also set up my website as a backup, which is quickly becoming my primary release source. I will stay around xda though like it or not.
On those who have followed me to the new site in support: Thank you.
Finally, a very short word on TW.
I have nothing but respect for these guys. I learned everything from them.
And that is my word on this.

Sick of zip developers (rant)

Typical scenario is;
v 0.1 based on this and that.
v 0.2 changed launcher, added ringtones
v 0.3 new wallpapers, added ram script
v 0.4 added new market, added google+
Excuse me!?! This is not development. This is stealing!
I think these people should just wank instead of copy/pasting. Would be more beneficial for both public and themselves.
Rant over.
Thank you.

calyxim said:
Typical scenario is;
v 0.1 based on this and that.
v 0.2 changed launcher, added ringtones
v 0.3 new wallpapers, added ram script
v 0.4 added new market, added google+
Excuse me!?! This is not development. This is stealing!
I think these people should just wank instead of copy/pasting. Would be more beneficial for both public and themselves.
Rant over.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, but if credit is given to original devs you can't really call it "stealing" cause Android is OSP after all...I'm no dev myself but it does seem many ROMs available are CM tweaks achievable with a few market downloads or simply AOSP with extra's...however sometimes certain ROMs begin as "Zip developments" and get later support with real devs and change fundamental features (kernels, code-base etc.) so it's not all bad...

Totally agree..........
But it's not the actual non-development of new roms that is getting on my nerves the most, its the constant *****ing and arguing through lack of understanding different languages etc etc..........
All i have to say is read the threads carefully as i've noticed some people who don't speak english very well get the hump on as they don't understand clearly what people are saying.
I know i've had my rants in some of these threads before and i don't blame anyone else for doing it too. I've managed to restrain myself the last few weeks as our arguments are falling on deaf ears so whats the point, i'll just ignore the idiots making fools out of themselves by bringing us stuff we've already had for a long time and stick to what i know best.

What you've said is true Scratch...even if the ROM cookers do bring something new often nobody knows what that new stuff is because of the poor English. I'm not trying to insult them but I would recommend, especially with a specialized thing such as compiling/ making a ROM, the English needs to be clear and concise so everyone knows what is being released, what changes have been made and what's been modified. More often than not, as you say Scratch, people get upset because of a misunderstanding. Maybe those struggling with the language can consult friends/devs and ask exactly how to express something they've done in their ROM so everybody is clear on what's happening.

Scratch0805 said:
...I've managed to restrain myself the last few weeks...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, I have got quite a lot to say over this entire fiasco over the Android 4.0 "ports" and "source builds" that is currently playing out in the dev zone like a long dragging soap opera, but, its just not worth it, so, just let them argue over themselves who is first and who is the true dev and what not. Besides, it's not a good feeling when these Zip Devs accuse you of various stuffs when you speak out against them. It's extremely childish and irritating to read those posts, but I guess it can't be helped. Zip developers are not a localized phenomenon, they are everywhere, and since Android and ROMs like Cyanogenmod are Open Source, we have nothing to say, and have to live with it.
There's another new phenomenon which is playing out and can be seen on pretty much every ROM. Someone gets a ROM to boot / work at a basic level, create a thread and build up major hype and hoopla on it, and EVERYONE of these "devs" proclaim "I need help to do this and do that./..... bla bla bla". Zip dev is not such a big issue per se, but, the level of intellect is terribly low among the "devs". I believe most of them are what? 12-13 year olds, and, they act their age perfectly, unlike someone like Jacob.
/End Rant

Case in point, after Arco has announced his intentions and the fact he already has a working port in progress:
I was first, it was my idea, I continue and basta.
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Click to collapse
Enough said.

Ahah, doing small things for the buzz (pun intended), acquiring a fame in trolland

Lol, I've made myself clear on this too.
" the ability to read is good,
the ability to understand what you've read is great "

http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/1...om-developers-i-think-we-need-to-have-a-talk/

3xeno said:
dragging soap opera.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't you mean aosp opera? Hehe...okay, I'll stop with the bad jokes.
And I fully agree with the topic. Anyone can open up any rom .zip paste in some apps, reflash and repackage it as your own.

Agree with this. Sadly I'm one of the offenders, that will have a moan at people developing zip-roms. I accept that this isnt the greatest way to deal with people on forums like theese. But it seems the only good way to get my point across to people that aren't that great at english.
Although, I must add one thing. I've seen roms get tossed around the development forums like mad. It seems to go like this in the dev. forums.
People create a booting rom. Or compile a new one.
People add a few fixes, someone creates a spin off.
Original dev discontinues rom, other 'developers' ask to continue it, even when they have projects in hand.
Someone picks up the pieces months later. After even the re-contiuned rom is given up with.
People spin roms off from there.

All i can say is dear god. I have been reading all that threads last few days and i was frapped how people are shalow in glorifying them selves and their so called development skills. I didnt want to coment anything cauze i have run into such argument once before with someone who was constantly refusing to understand what i am saying and i dont want to do it again, so i leave my thoughts here.
So people should get on the ground for change and start doing something usefull instead of make dozen threads, first when you dig something, than another one when you are asking if it can be done and finaly one when you "do" something. What they have done is nothing. They are just thanks chasers. In last few days there were more new roms than it was for whole Wildfire lifetime.
I remember tje days when there was just three or four roms and they worked, you hear me, they worked. So stop posting such s**t unles u did something that is realy worth it.
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using xda premium

Yes you are right, zip development is horrible. Lately there has been a major rise in "new" roms that have been hitting the development thread. I swear I have seen at least 5 to 10 roms all based on CM7 or oxygen. And what's different? It's "fast and stable" "Is themed to look like ICS" "Has a script that I actually don't know what it does but it must do something good". And its "my" rom because I grabbed a rom.zip from a device that runs oxygen smoothly and added the boot.img and the build prop right from the CM7 rom.zip and then cooked it and I posted it under MY account so its MY rom. There is a problem though, my genius copy/paste skills on my computer that took forever to build up are limited to actually being able to fix problems with things like Bluetooth and GPS, etc. So what do I do then? Hell I request "help" to fix the problems and once a genius like acro or another real dev comes in and fixes it for me, I take the fix and say it was all MY work. AOSP stands for ANDROID OPEN SOURCE PROJECT. The source is open to anyone that can use linux terminal (that's half the problem). The other problem is that no one could be bothered taking the time to actually learn a skill. They want to do something now, and now only. They won't spend hours and days learning how to program in java or C because it takes "too long" and just wants to begin this so called "deving" now. This is a rant about zip development, but wait you say, I do .zip development though? Yes I do, but what I am talking about is .zip development that is based on a .zip that is actually OPEN SOURCE. If something is OPEN SOURCE there is no point in taking a compiled .zip and "porting it" to our device. You do this because its easy for you to hit download and copy and paste, but you don't "have the time" to setup a download of the source and compile it to a rom. Zip development that is for CLOSED SOURCE on the other hand is way different. HTC, MIUI, etc. are all roms that have no open source code so all the work has to be done based on a .zip. Since the code is not available this is the only option. This in my opinion is the only kind of good .zip development since there is no source to build from. I would love to download the source and mess around with the ICS source and try to compile something but my computer is got really bad specs and my internet is so slow. I will just leave that kind of work to acro and the real devs

I agree with this. Looking through the more recent Wildfire ROMS, I can see a pattern for most. So, I have started to come up with a fight back, for individuality and mostly, for a better mobile experience. It would mean a lot if you could help me out with THIS.
Sorry to ask in this thread, but I thought it might be a good idea

Before I get accused of zipfile developing, I only compiled an edited kernel for the ROM to allow touchscreen to work a little.
I am not a "zipfile" developer and I am not going to be, my interest is in kernels.
I happened to come to xda at the wrong time, first thing kaassaus did was ask me to follow a tutorial to get touchscreen working (which took all of 20 seconds).
I think posting an ICS zip is okay FOR NOW because there is no OPEN source for the wildfire for it, and Arco is NOT breaking the GPL because he hasn't redistributed it yet.
Sent from my HTC Wildfire

We are not accusing anyone. My point is dev section is not a learning section. Those who want to learn development can pop into chefs section instead of releasing a rom with 2 zillion bugs.
There is a reason for this forum is not called xda-tweakers. Because our devs are devs. They are not steve jobs like tweakers.
2nd rant over. Class dismissed

Okay, Zip development is not so bad, actualy is needed in some points. For flashing kernels or some other things. But look at some of that AOSP-fast and stable roms. What do they bring us? Nothing. It is just repacked CM nightly or stable. To "develop" such rom you need WinZip and in best case Android SDK if they decide to decompile and recompile few apps instead of treating them with winzip too to change few icons and voila, NEW ROM. Better yet someome will take any theme and implement it into framework.And he will be so proud because his rom has diferent look. What else we can still expect is ES file explorer instead of OI, Miui galery, themed keyborad, different font and unforgetable scripts which do god knows what. They are the main part. Is that a rom? No it isn't my dear friends. Its a disrespect to any real developer here. All that we already have. We have themes, we have scripts we have everything that flashable and we dont need another yet ****y rom to tell us what is fast and stable.
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using xda premium

I don't find anything wrong in updating an already present ROM's with new applications update ,... even though i must say there is a trend in past few weeks that lot of ROM's in buzz section were merely identical and there was no development in them

I was browsing the old threads of the Dev Zone, and came on this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=884659
Amazing, right? It's deja vu all over again.. (PS - Don't bump that please. lol)

I am a noob, and I know I will never be as experienced as other developers.
That is why I do not develop ROMs, and develop things I am good at.