If you are stuck with a phone for which the manufacturer has stopped releasing updates, or if you are bored with your current Android version and want to try something new, or if you want to be on the latest Android security patches, or if you want to make use to theming engines such as Substratum (which may not work with your phone's default OS), or if you are just a hobbyist looking for something fresh…custom android roms provide you with the perfect solution for your needs. Made by developers and enthusiasts, custom roms illustrate the power of diversity that can come from an open source ecosystem.
In theory, at least.
Below is my commentary on my trysts with custom roms over the last year and half.
Disclaimer: My experiences are based mostly on three phones - Moto G4, Redmi Note 3 (kenzo, not kate), and OnePlus 3.
The Trouble with custom Roms
1. Barriers to Entry
Before you can even venture into the world of installing and trying out new roms, you must ensure that your phone is, in fact, ready for it. This requires steps like getting the bootloader unlocked (can be tricky with phones like Xiaomi etc.), installing custom recovery, and then flashing roms, and then flashing GApps. For most users, this is too much hassle that they can be bothered with. There is a significantly steep learning curve for the layperson.
Thereafter, you must see which ROMs are available for your phone, which are still in active development, which have less bugs etc. This requires a lot of time going through the forums. Otherwise, you will waste more time flashing and then reflashing continuously.
Which brings us to the second point.
2. Official, Unofficial, MOD….Abandoned!
So, you found your way around XDA forums…good job! Now, you must start figuring out the differences between Official and Unofficial roms, and what that implies. The situation gets even more complex, because often we assume that Official tag would imply active development and bugfixes, and security updates, and the like. However, there are many "Official" roms that are dead, but "unofficial" roms that are alive, with more bugfixes, and a wider community.
One example is Citrus-CAF for Kenzo Official, which is dead…but Customized LOS build by Umang, which is unofficial, which is going well.
So after a while, the user realizes that whether there is an Official tag or Unofficial tag, really doesn't matter for all practical purposes, and is quite frankly just confusing. So why even bother with the tags? Official builds are equally likely to be abandoned by the developers without any prior notice, as are unofficial builds. Which takes us to the next issue.
3. Abandoned!
Remember, why you hopped on to the custom roms scene in the first place? That your manufacturer has abandoned your device and you wanted something new and more up to date? Well, guess what?! Custom rom developers abandon their roms all the time, without any warning whatsoever, and you are stuck waiting for the next build, which never comes.
This is hidden under the courteous pretenses of asinine etiquettes such as… "Don't ask for ETAs..the developers have a life you know, they are doing this for free, so just wait."
Here is my gripe with this all-pervasive norm. The developers knew they have a life, and yet decided to commit to a project, and attracted other people to their roms. And people put their trust in the developer (phones have all our data, so allowing a random person's code willingly on our phones is an act of utmost good faith), reported bugs, went through the trouble of the learning curve. Some even donated to the projects. If you start a pet project in your backyard, which no one else is affected by, then by all means go ahead and abandon it whenever you like. But when you are making OSes, then have some accountability. Especially the Official tag ones.
So many developers are just computer science students who have exams and what not, and so although the title of the ROM thread might claim weekly updates, they are gone for a month (Eg. Resurrection Remix for Redmi Note 3). This gives the whole rom an amateurish feel, and often a user might decide to stick with the OEM because of a lack of confidence in such roms.
And what is so wrong with asking for ETAs? It requires the developer to make a commitment which they may not be in a position to honor. That's the problem. Which leads me to the next point.
4. Communication
There are some developers who are really good at communication and keeping their user base updated on what's happening behind the scenes. However, this is still a rarity. I wish more developers did that. Some start new threads, promise you the best experience there ever was in the history of humanity, stay online for a month, and then vanish without a trace…(Eg. dotOS).
I wish there were more developers like xyyx, and Franco who communicate, even when they are not uploading builds. It instills confidence.
5. Accountability
I recently directed a friend of mine to go to one of the many rom threads available for his phone, the OnePlus 5. He spent one night browsing the forums, and decided he did not want to install anything. I asked why, and he said, "All this is fine, but I cannot get past, the initial disclaimer itself. When a manufacturer messes up an update and bricks your phone, they are held accountable. It is their legal responsibility. But here, every single rom starts with … you are on your own, if I release an update which breaks your phone, then too bad, go cry somewhere else. I cannot abide by that."
And this got me thinking…for those of us, who are not so tech savvy, custom roms are indeed a scary proposition. Can we do something about it, to ensure a little bit more accountability and quality checks for Official roms at least?
6. Userbase/ Community
While the general populace here at XDA is extremely helpful, I have found that this forum is divided into sub-communities of varying degrees of niceness. The stark difference can be found in the sub-communities of Oneplus 3 custom rom versus that of Redmi Note 3. While the former group seems more mature and accepting of mistakes newcomers might make, that of the latter, is less forgiving.
Please take a look at the below just some of the thousands of examples of such conversations live on the forums.
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Once you are done wondering about the relevance of an inquiry on your sexual orientation by a homophobic imbecile, on a custom rom forum, you find yourself guided by experts like this...
But the most common, useful advice of them all, repeated many times on custom rom forums is this....
Now I know the moderators clean the threads at regular intervals, but think from the perspective of that new user, a potential fellow enthusiast, who perhaps could have ventured into the custom rom scene and helped in various ways…think from that person's point of view….would they ever return to that rom? Every three pages of any rom, you will find such comments.
And this is a huge problem, I feel. Custom roms thrive on the community around them, much like Linux distributions. Developers and moderators must take more steps to ensure a more harmonious and cordial interaction on their forums.
Conclusion
Here are my takeaways from this journey so far
Installing custom roms is difficult, and a pain. With locked bootloaders, custom recoveries, Error 7, etc etc. There is very little a developer can do about this.
Currently, there seems to be no difference between Official and Unofficial roms from a user's perspective, so the tags are meaningless and confusing. That Official tag will start to mean something, only if there are more stringent conditions on quality, accountability, communication, and expectation of support and development. Otherwise, it is useless.
The community needs to be better moderated than it is, currently. Trolls are a fact of modern life, I know. But perhaps, we as a community can also moderate and shut down any such conversations, and help each other, better than we are doing.
Overall, I think, rather than depending solely on the developers and maintainers of a custom rom, I think it is upon us, the community, as a whole to make this ecosystem better for users and developers, enthusiasts and hobbyists, geeks and layperson, alike.
Lol
---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------
BTW good post
You should post this on medium and also email sites like androidpolice! You can get it published.
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
It you don't want, then don't use custom roms. Developers don't force you to use them. Please atleast try to code for a simple app. Then complain about developers. Don't show disrespect to the developers who makes our phones awesome. If you don't want, then stick to stock rom.
At least with MIUI, you'll still be getting UI and security updates even if the kernel base is several generations behind. I love custom ROMs but they're not for the faint of heart, you have to be willing to fix a hard brick before you even think of flashing.
I also don't complain about ROMs or developers because these are all volunteer efforts. When I get home from work, I like to relax with a good ebook and a good workout... Developers spend their down time coding for all of us.
The real targets for indignation should be device and chipset vendors. They black-box most of their code using proprietary blobs and they delay or never release kernel sources, hindering the work of custom ROM developers. The unfortunate truth is that the mobile industry is obsessed with numbers and wants everyone to buy new phones every few months, old devices usually being thrown away. Custom ROMs keep these older phones working for a lot longer but this means reduced profits for the industry.
1emrys1 said:
You should post this on medium and also email sites like androidpolice! You can get it published.
Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
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Haha thank you.
karthikkarthik said:
It you don't want, then don't use custom roms. Developers don't force you to use them. Please atleast try to code for a simple app. Then complain about developers. Don't show disrespect to the developers who makes our phones awesome. If you don't want, then stick to stock rom.
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Thank you for illustrating my point no. 6 very well. I was actually waiting for a comment like this.
To the readers who come here after, please see this post as an example of what is wrong with the community of Redmi Note 3 sub forums especially. If you don't like something, don't use it, but we will not improve or change or even consider how you the user might be feeling. In fact, we are really fine with using half-baked, buggy, and abandoned roms, because we defend this action in the above manner. And if you, the reader, don't like it, you can go to hell.
Thank you, for this illustration. I am sure xda would not be where it is today without such fanboys, and knights defending the honor of developers-in-hiding.
But, to others...We must be better than this.
But if I were to respond to you, I'd say...no one forced the developer either to publish his crappy rom, promise you regular updates, make a commitment to you, beg you for donations, promise you continuous support, gain the user's trust and....once his crappy rom has been flashed on your device....to just abandon it and leave...because well "he has a life".
Don't commit, if you can't follow through on your commitment. If you like making roms, make roms, and keep them to yourself. But when you make a promise, and when you get hundreds, if not thousands of people, to install your code on their device, then have the basic decency of accountability. Show your userbase the same respect you demand of them.
oatcooky said:
At least with MIUI, you'll still be getting UI and security updates even if the kernel base is several generations behind. I love custom ROMs but they're not for the faint of heart, you have to be willing to fix a hard brick before you even think of flashing.
I also don't complain about ROMs or developers because these are all volunteer efforts. When I get home from work, I like to relax with a good ebook and a good workout... Developers spend their down time coding for all of us.
The real targets for indignation should be device and chipset vendors. They black-box most of their code using proprietary blobs and they delay or never release kernel sources, hindering the work of custom ROM developers. The unfortunate truth is that the mobile industry is obsessed with numbers and wants everyone to buy new phones every few months, old devices usually being thrown away. Custom ROMs keep these older phones working for a lot longer but this means reduced profits for the industry.
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Click to collapse
Yes, I agree with you. It is really a pain...and when after a lot of efforts let's say someone manages to get something to work (Eg. VOLTE video call, Goodix fp etc), it is still mostly unreliable and buggy. This is not a developer side problem, but the manufacturer side issue like you correctly said.
My post is not only about developers. But about a lot of other things, including the community interactions and the whole sub-forum ecosystem. But just because it is a volunteer effort, doesn't mean you should not have certain standards. But anyway, I think the developer side of the issue is not as big as the community side of the issue. There is rampant abuse, personal attacks and what not, for asking simple questions and doubts, which are completely unnecessary. Everyone would leave like that, and what you are left with a bunch of people like the second post above quoted, who really don't give the community a better name. And its a vicious cycle that repeats itself. Perhaps, we can stop worrying about OEM strategies because it is not something that we can control, and start by things that we can control....like the interactions we have here.
The guys on posts that you screenshotted are doing what has to be done. If everyone stops spoonfeeding other people, posts like "plezz gimme the latest room link" will disappear eventually.
scrubjay55 said:
The guys on posts that you screenshotted are doing what has to be done. If everyone stops spoonfeeding other people, posts like "plezz gimme the latest room link" will disappear eventually.
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So you happen to be one of the people who condone online abuse under the pretext of not 'spoonfeeding'? There are many ways to respond to the same queries without resorting to abuse and questioning people's sexual orientation. It's called being civilised. Which seems to be a rarity in these sub forums. Hence it is inaccessible to most newcomers.
And while many developers do post updated links and changelogs on the first post itself, and diligently update it periodically... Not all do.
The whole point of the article is to take more responsibility in being a more helpful community rather than abusing people.
Those guys should find other vents to take out their frustrations of life, elsewhere.
vypers said:
So you happen to be one of the people who condone online abuse under the pretext of not 'spoonfeeding'? There are many ways to respond to the same queries without resorting to abuse and questioning people's sexual orientation. It's called being civilised. Which seems to be a rarity in these sub forums. Hence it is inaccessible to most newcomers.
And while many developers do post updated links and changelogs on the first post itself, and diligently update it periodically... Not all do.
The whole point of the article is to take more responsibility in being a more helpful community rather than abusing people.
Those guys should find other vents to take out their frustrations of life, elsewhere.
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While I agree with the OP in general, I disagree with this particular point. There are hundreds of people who just hop onto a thread with the usual dumb questions - "SOT?" "Muh VoLTE?" and so on without reading anything. They don't read the original dev posts, nor the following posts, not even the posts that are just above theirs, which sometimes even have the answer. They expect to get everything given to them - the links, the tutorial, the bug reports to the point where they basically expect you to install everything for them and even wipe their ass while you're leaving. You say, be cordial and don't abuse people, but that goes both ways. People should read more and stop abusing devs with utterly moronic questions.
Alan Ryan said:
While I agree with the OP in general, I disagree with this particular point. There are hundreds of people who just hop onto a thread with the usual dumb questions - "SOT?" "Muh VoLTE?" and so on without reading anything. They don't read the original dev posts, nor the following posts, not even the posts that are just above theirs, which sometimes even have the answer. They expect to get everything given to them - the links, the tutorial, the bug reports to the point where they basically expect to install everything for them and even wipe their ass while you're leaving. You say, be cordial and don't abuse people, but that goes both ways. People should read more and stop abusing devs with utterly moronic questions.
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Yeah this is what i was trying to imply.
vypers said:
Haha thank you.
Thank you for illustrating my point no. 6 very well. I was actually waiting for a comment like this.
To the readers who come here after, please see this post as an example of what is wrong with the community of Redmi Note 3 sub forums especially. If you don't like something, don't use it, but we will not improve or change or even consider how you the user might be feeling. In fact, we are really fine with using half-baked, buggy, and abandoned roms, because we defend this action in the above manner. And if you, the reader, don't like it, you can go to hell.
Thank you, for this illustration. I am sure xda would not be where it is today without such fanboys, and knights defending the honor of developers-in-hiding.
But, to others...We must be better than this.
But if I were to respond to you, I'd say...no one forced the developer either to publish his crappy rom, promise you regular updates, make a commitment to you, beg you for donations, promise you continuous support, gain the user's trust and....once his crappy rom has been flashed on your device....to just abandon it and leave...because well "he has a life".
Don't commit, if you can't follow through on your commitment. If you like making roms, make roms, and keep them to yourself. But when you make a promise, and when you get hundreds, if not thousands of people, to install your code on their device, then have the basic decency of accountability. Show your userbase the same respect you demand of them.
Yes, I agree with you. It is really a pain...and when after a lot of efforts let's say someone manages to get something to work (Eg. VOLTE video call, Goodix fp etc), it is still mostly unreliable and buggy. This is not a developer side problem, but the manufacturer side issue like you correctly said.
My post is not only about developers. But about a lot of other things, including the community interactions and the whole sub-forum ecosystem. But just because it is a volunteer effort, doesn't mean you should not have certain standards. But anyway, I think the developer side of the issue is not as big as the community side of the issue. There is rampant abuse, personal attacks and what not, for asking simple questions and doubts, which are completely unnecessary. Everyone would leave like that, and what you are left with a bunch of people like the second post above quoted, who really don't give the community a better name. And its a vicious cycle that repeats itself. Perhaps, we can stop worrying about OEM strategies because it is not something that we can control, and start by things that we can control....like the interactions we have here.
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Just like I said earlier. Nobody forces you to use their custom rom. And nobody begs for donations. First try to code atleast a line before posting such s*** posts. Then you will know how hard it is. You are just a noob trying to showoff by showing your hollow brain ?. Just pathetic.
karthikkarthik said:
Just like I said earlier. Nobody forces you to use their custom rom. And nobody begs for donations. First try to code atleast a line before posting such s*** posts. Then you will know how hard it is. You are just a noob trying to showoff by showing your hollow brain . Just pathetic.
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To Other Readers:
Dear Reader, this is an example of personal attack by a member of the custom rom community. When such a person has nothing substantial to say, they will assume things about you (In the screenshot in the original post it was questioning someone's sexual identity, and here that one doesn't know "a line of code" and is a "noob"). They will then proceed to abuse you by trying to dissolve any credibility that you might have. Actually their entire message will not have anything of substance, and will not contribute in any meaningful way to a productive discussion.
In fact, it might be factually incorrect too.
Eg. "nobody begs for donations". As you can see below, the above respondent is actually more ignorant than what they may accuse you of being.
1.
2.
3.
4.
Oh and BTW,
In fact, the respondent himself has solicited donations in the past, it would seem...:silly::silly:
Before abandoning that project, as was one of the points in the original post.
So you, dear reader, may choose to ignore such comments. You will find such comments and aggression littered across all custom rom sub forums. But it is not representative of the larger XDA community, I assure you, which is more helpful and forthcoming than this.
***
P.S. Yes, I can code. Been at it more than 8 years now. Not custom roms, of course (otherwise why would I post the article). So much for assumptions of me being a 'noob' and 'not knowing how to code' LOL. :good:
Nice post. :good:
vypers said:
To Other Readers:
Dear Reader, this is an example of personal attack by a member of the custom rom community. When such a person has nothing substantial to say, they will assume things about you (In the screenshot in the original post it was questioning someone's sexual identity, and here that one doesn't know "a line of code" and is a "noob"). They will then proceed to abuse you by trying to dissolve any credibility that you might have. Actually their entire message will not have anything of substance, and will not contribute in any meaningful way to a productive discussion.
In fact, it might be factually incorrect too.
Eg. "nobody begs for donations". As you can see below, the above respondent is actually more ignorant than what they may accuse you of being.
1.
2.
3.
4.
Oh and BTW,
In fact, the respondent himself has solicited donations in the past, it would seem...:silly::silly:
Before abandoning that project, as was one of the points in the original post.
So you, dear reader, may choose to ignore such comments. You will find such comments and aggression littered across all custom rom sub forums. But it is not representative of the larger XDA community, I assure you, which is more helpful and forthcoming than this.
***
P.S. Yes, I can code. Been at it more than 8 years now. Not custom roms, of course (otherwise why would I post the article). So much for assumptions of me being a 'noob' and 'not knowing how to code' LOL. :good:
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So you does stalk on my profile and abuse me personally. Bravo ???? wasn't you the one whining about them ?.
And I didn't beg for donations as you can see.
And as far as I can see, "8 years experienced code expert" doesn't seem to have contributed anything to community other than some whining posts about s***.
I don't think you are even worth the reply.
---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 AM ----------
If you don't want to use other developers custom rom. Fine. The device tree is in github. You can easily make one yourself instead of whining. Then only noobs like you would know how hard it is. I don't think you know even to reboot to recovery. ?
karthikkarthik said:
So you does stalk on my profile and abuse me personally. Bravo wasn't you the one whining about them .
And I didn't beg for donations as you can see.
And as far as I can see, "8 years experienced code expert" doesn't seem to have contributed anything to community other than some whining posts about s***.
I don't think you are even worth the reply.
---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 AM ----------
If you don't want to use other developers custom rom. Fine. The device tree is in github. You can easily make one yourself instead of whining. Then only noobs like you would know how hard it is. I don't think you know even to reboot to recovery.
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1. Let's try your own logic of "nobody is forcing you to use custom roms etc etc." I posted something. I didn't ask you personally to read it or comment on it. If you didn't like what you were reading, then you could have have stopped after the first paragraph and left the page. There was no need to start commenting from the very beginning with nothing but assumptions about me and aggression.
Wouldn't this be accurate as per your logic?
2. Which made me wonder....why, when every other respondent seems to be fine with the general ideas mentioned in the OP, you took it so personally and started raging right on a forum thread. It makes sense to me now, since you actually had done some of the things I had mentioned in the OP that I thought were wrong with the custom rom scene (like abandoning projects after donations and commitments etc.,... then making unhelpful aggressive posts and name calling for no reason...exactly my points mentioned in the OP). This obviously is just a theory that I have.
3. Commenting on something that one feels can be improved, is not called whining.
There is a reason why Franco (the kernel dev) called the RN3 community on XDA 'cancer'. I understand fully why.
4. If it helps you sleep better...sure, mate, I don't know how to even boot to recovery. In fact, I just learnt how to tie my shoelaces this morning. It's a miracle! We done now?? :good:
I think the thread here is at risk of taking a turn which it was meant to avoid. Perhaps, the next comments by other people can be on a constructive note. It is my sincere hope that at least some ideas can come, which can make this ecosystem more friendly, more supportive, with a focus on quality checks over the diversity of abandoned custom rom projects.
I also hope that someone can shed more light on this "Official/Unofficial" tags that I mentioned in the OP. Like, how can we make that Official tag more meaningful?
Lineage OS seems to be coming up with something along the lines of minimum set of quality requirements for it to be called Official. Perhaps something like that which is actually tangibly enforceable would be something custom rom users could benefit by.
I kind of agree with OP but of course It's not really a problem with custom ROMs but instead a problem with how messy this forum is and the search function is.. I'm sorry to say almost useless, that results in many questions asked over and over again. And most of the time questions seem to be ignored (even when they are new) but yeah custom ROMs can be amazing and I am thankful for all guys doing work on android but be prepared to be alone with your questions and bugs.. btw, I have had contact with Xiaomi regarding bugs in their ROMs and they ignore just as much I learned how to fix them myself...
vypers said:
1. Let's try your own logic of "nobody is forcing you to use custom roms etc etc." I posted something. I didn't ask you personally to read it or comment on it. If you didn't like what you were reading, then you could have have stopped after the first paragraph and left the page. There was no need to start commenting from the very beginning with nothing but assumptions about me and aggression.
Wouldn't this be accurate as per your logic?
2. Which made me wonder....why, when every other respondent seems to be fine with the general ideas mentioned in the OP, you took it so personally and started raging right on a forum thread. It makes sense to me now, since you actually had done some of the things I had mentioned in the OP that I thought were wrong with the custom rom scene (like abandoning projects after donations and commitments etc.,... then making unhelpful aggressive posts and name calling for no reason...exactly my points mentioned in the OP). This obviously is just a theory that I have.
3. Commenting on something that one feels can be improved, is not called whining.
There is a reason why Franco (the kernel dev) called the RN3 community on XDA 'cancer'. I understand fully why.
4. If it helps you sleep better...sure, mate, I don't know how to even boot to recovery. In fact, I just learnt how to tie my shoelaces this morning. It's a miracle! We done now?? :good:
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Just pathetic. Your not worth wasting my time ?
---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------
And also stop stalking you creep.
karthikkarthik said:
Just pathetic. Your not worth wasting my time
---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------
And also stop stalking you creep.
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1. Please then don't waste your time, and leave this thread alone. (Your own logic of ..don't like custom roms, then leave).
2. From the very beginning, you have done nothing but name calling and assuming things. You continue to do so, proving my points further and further.
Didn't you say I am a "noob". And aren't noobs told to "use the search function" before posting things?? How is then using the search function to find publicly available things creepy??
Every single inconsequential point you have made, since you started raging against me from the first post onwards, for no reason whatsoever, has been proved hypocritical. I think it is only fair that we stop this altercation now. It is leading nowhere.
Good day!
tangoviking said:
I kind of agree with OP but of course It's not really a problem with custom ROMs but instead a problem with how messy this forum is and the search function is.. I'm sorry to say almost useless, that results in many questions asked over and over again. And most of the time questions seem to be ignored (even when they are new) but yeah custom ROMs can be amazing and I am thankful for all guys doing work on android but be prepared to be alone with your questions and bugs.. btw, I have had contact with Xiaomi regarding bugs in their ROMs and they ignore just as much I learned how to fix them myself...
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Yes thank you. People are asked to use search function quite rudely all the time. And I agree, for things like SOT, VoLTE etc etc it's easy to go back a few pages and find the answer. But for more complex queries, although something may have been answered before, the XDA search is inadequate. Google site search is better.
And just to clarify, in case it seems that way, I am in no way saying that developers work less, or that I don't appreciate their efforts. In fact, I am taking my cue from some of the highly regarded devs like xyyx, Franco etc, to suggest that what they do should be done by more devs...like communication, accountability, not vanishing without a word, consistent support, thereby instilling confidence in their users.
Related
Okay firstly this is what jaxouk wrote:
I have read many posts where people are asking which is the best rom for my device (and have done myself) only to get abrupt replies with something like "how dare you ask this, chefs put a lot of effort into each rom and its down to personal preferance blah blah" ................"THREAD CLOSED"
Does every one think think this is the best way for xda to be run or is there other people that think this should be allowed to be debated? I know this is originally a developer forum, however I would hazard a guess that there is now more public users that devolpers.
The thing is developers develope roms and yes certainly they put a lot of time and effort into it and are respected rightly so for it. however can the end user really be expected not to be allowed to discuss these roms on the forum only to be told the above mensioned things. It happens time and again over and over. People like myself (the end user) do not have time to flash every rom to find the ones they like. (its a days setting up for myself after a flash) and if its crap (which there is no denying. some are) its a day wasted.
What I think the forum needs is a "ROM USER REVIEW" section where people like myself can go and rate a rom for other users referance.
Surely this is the key to better roms. If one developers rom is poor hes going to be able to see that its poor and will/might take the user rating / comments on board and the next time try harder.... ultimately producing a better rom.
Competition is what makes better products, If handset manufacturers took the same stance as xda we would be waiting for the realease of the o2 xda 2s later this year. and this is the same in all industries.
Okay so firstly Spot on and totally agree with you which as we all can see the majority of members using XDA agree with too.
Secondly this is what itje wrote who is a Moderator here:
I closed this thread, due to the same reason all the others that are similar all over xda are closed on sight.
These kind of threads usualy/always ends up in disputes and flamewars, there is always some hotheaded ppl who burst into flames when someone dont have the same view as they do.
So... sorry, yeah we close
So basically what you are saying is we as members are not allowed to treat XDA as a discussion forum as well as a Developer Forum? I thought the whole meaning to the word Forum, was for people to discuss there DIFFERENT opinions and have certain disputes with one another.
Sorry if people dont agree with this and please tell me why but I just think its silly that a mod would close a thread incase someone shouts and god forbid have an opinion.
Let me know what you guys think
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
I wasnt telling anyone how to run THIS forum I was basically explaining to everyone how a forum is normally run, if this is the way everyone likes it then fine but looking through 100's of posts and topics around here all I see is members and "noobs" getting put down from the likes of you.
crazy cat said:
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
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me no understand
This has been explained again and again.
Personal and objective opinions are not allowed here. So if you can't make your own judgement on which ROM's to use you might want to stick to the stock ROM. Or The best thing to do is setup your own personal blog for these types of things. Then you can say what you want.
This will be another thread closed soon i feel.
It's impossible to determine what 'the best rom' would be...
Some ppl love a transparent clock, others hate it.
Same with the slider bar.
Same with themes.
Some ppl love a windows build with the start button on the top, some ppl love it with the button on the bottom.
Some ppl love to have a crapload of apps installed, some ppl hate it.
Some ppl love to have the newest unstable build, some ppl want the secure and stable one.
I might love a rom and you might hate it, the only objective criteria is how stable a rom is but even that can be debated. So you just have to try, see what works for you and go from there.
thread closed (i wish)
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
noris08 said:
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
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Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread. The truth be known many of the problems users face are due to them not following instruction or due to some other incompatible software there are trying to use and then they blame their problems on the ROM creator. The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
I understand what people want and this is why I made the statement to open your own blog or site to do these things and then link to here.
i have to agree. cooker cooks a rom and we rate it. if it was just "cook, post, upload, thread closed" in res of the world then everyone would buy apple, but cause its the information age we need to know what is what and where is where.
this should be even more seen here on "professional" forum like xda-developers.
i totaly agree with OP.
@bazgee: saying that 'noobs' shouldnt talk.. makes you so much more a 'noob'. your ass wasn't born smart and so wasn't OPs.
bobsbbq said:
Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread.
....
The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
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This is what forums are for!! To ASK, and to ANSWER!!
Edit; I'm not going to say something, post removed.
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
Developers Forum?
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway. The end users play a massive role in here, determining bugs, requesting new features or feature removal and indeed critiquing the ROM within its own thread.
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
I'm sure it is more to do with protecting the ROM developers so that the ones who's ROMs may be bottom of the pile don't walk away, which is fair enough.
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
The moderators don't 'need' to do anything (We will all be here anyway) but if they have some respect then they should take on board and accomodate what appears to be the opinion of a vast number of users.
I'm sure there is some middle ground somewhere if we try and look ....
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
I'm not sure consolve vs PC is quite the same a comparing different ROMs as they have the same hardware, similar architecture, purpose etc Your also getting a little needlesly condescending now ;-)
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
mwillems2 said:
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
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How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
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Again, I'm trying to understand what are you on about, but I can't. What is constructive information according to you?
You have ROM description on the first page, you can check the last few if there are any issues with it. What else do you want?
[/QUOTE]
i agree what bobsbbq said ,is not fair to say that this rom is good and this rom is better but if you try the other rom is far more better,is dissrespectul from the chefs trying to help you guys having best rom's avialible and to open another thread to say things like that is bad,so for me i choose my own judgement and would not ask others wich rom is best,so this thread is closed
mwillems2 said:
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway.
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You're saying this like it is somehow an acceptable, or possibly even a good thing. It is not.
It's true that this forum is now visited by people who:
cannot be bothered to read the first post of any thread
have no intention of educating themselves, only blindly consuming
will shamelessly ***** and make demands about things they are getting for free
These people do not make the community "better" in any way, and this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated in my view.
mwillems2 said:
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
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Heated discussions in themselves do not need to escalate any further. They are already a waste of everybody's time, and have no place here.
mwillems2 said:
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
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I'm relatively sure the user who is seriously interested in testing and reporting is not in need of a completely seperate thread to voice their opinion on which ROM is somehow "best". For testers it's not constructive to voice opinions about a ROM in any other thread than the original ROM thread.
mwillems2 said:
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
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Not so sure about that. I've seen plenty of chefs say that they basically cook for themselves, and just like to share. Even if they are cooking for the community, they do not need people to praise or diss their ROM's in any other thread than their own.
Overall, I feel the biggest problem with having a centralized ROM discussion thread is the intented audience: people who cannot be bothered to test and compare by themselves, people who cannot be bothered to read individual ROM threads.
What would be the point in creating a new thread for these people? Once it gets beyond 1 page, they will not bothered to read it anyway.
for me personally these "top 20s" don't have any value whatsoever but i understand why so many people want them. some of them are just lazy and want to avoid to read the threads, others are not able to think for themselves and need to be told what is good or bad for them and there are those who want to become famous reviewers.
for cryin' out loud, don't fix what is not broken! this forum is perfect as it is. moderators, don't let the comorades tell you what to do!
Volw said:
How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
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I think is better we not make comparative, believe it is better for all!!
but if you say it is impossible to compare among themselves the Rom, you're wrong!
lol reopened.
anyway i belive this huld be discussed. we are here three levels of people. so this will need for 1st level, and 2nd level will be trying the roms and giving feed backs. so 3rd level always will be cooking and editing roms. just my opinion.
lets start the work.. i go for duttys HG V.08
It's a serious question.
When I released the MghtyMax series of Sense ROMs, I made it a point not to ask for donations. Not just because the bulk of the framework of those ROMs were Maxisma's code, but because I wanted to freely take as much knowledge as I was giving to the community.
I knew there were users who would want to give, and even got IM's asking where to send money. I always instructed them to send that money to their local food bank or homeless shelter.
Now that Klick has been tarred, feathered, and carried out of town on a pike, I must ask:
Assuming for a moment that Klick was guilty of copying other people's code (and I'm certainly not saying he is guilty, especially since I have not properly reviewed any evidence against him) would anyone have said word one if he hadn't been including a donation link in his posts?
There are some very successful developers here that have tens of thousands of users of their ROMs. At least one likely has over 100k users. Those users add up to a lot of donations. We're not talking chicken scratch here, but the potential to generate some serious capitol.
As with any business venture, an individual or company will go to great lengths to defend their income stream. When you are talking about proprietary designs, and copyrighted intellectual property, it's only natural for the owner of said designs or property to defend their work from imitation, alteration, and redistribution under a different brand/name.
However, we're not talking about private intellectual property here, are we? No, we're talking about open source code, released by the Android Open Source Project under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 generic license.
Even if he was indeed guilty of using someone else's base code, there was no law broken. So why all the hubbub?
Honestly, I think it was money.
When there is the potential to make thousands, tens of thousands, or possibly even hundreds of thousands of dollars in "donations", people are going to become very possessive of their "market share".
If donations to developers didn't exist, my guess is none of this bickering would be happening at all. One developer could happily take another dev's code, modify it, re-release it, and another dev could come along and modify that.
Nobody would complain because there would be nothing to lose. Developers would be releasing code for the sole purpose of enhancing the development community, instead of lining their pockets with currency.
Why would anyone care, as long as the code was being enriched, and the end result was better programming for all? Wasn't this the point of open development?
I know this post will be very unpopular with some, but I think we've let the money changers overrun the temple. I think this trend of asking for donations will only slow the open development of code, and encourage those with large followings to do what ever it takes to crush perceived competition.
The above paragraph may have just made me the pariah of the entire development community, but I really don't give a damn. I honestly believe the community would be far better off without money being involved at all. It is because of this belief that I encourage the management of XDA to permanently ban all requests for donations, be they for ROM development, APP development, or any other purpose.
I firmly believe that by removing money from the equation, we will see a much more rich and diverse development community, with developers willing to enjoy an open exchange of ideas.
But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
Then toy have the people who download a rom from elsewhere, change the build.prop, maybe theme it a little if they are bored, upload it elsewhere and say "Hey donate for my work on the rom" when the reality is its not their work, nor are they worth (most of the time) running.
I think people are complaining about people in the third group, not the first two.
I've been trying to figure out what all this craziness has been about in the dev forum. I literally only browse it for my own personal selfish reasons. To get the best roms and enjoy my G1.
At the end of the day Mghtyred is ultimately right. Regardless of stolen code or not, it's all free and open source. I could definitely understand how this could upset a lot of people, but that cracks me up. I'm going to go out on a really safe looking limb here and say that most people that frequent these forums are probably pirates and download stuff constantly. But when it comes to money in their own pockets then the situation change drastically. That kind of hypocrisy is disgusting.
Especially when it leads to someone getting booted over something ultimately so petty as far as the internet is concerned. Just a bunch of egos fighting over the spotlight. Which is ultimately pretty useless when in reality the vast majority of the people who actually use your roms don't care who made it, they just want the best one out there.
Isn't money always the downfall of everything? Unfortunately it looks like it's really starting to take it's toll on this community. I'm a very new Android user but since day one of coming to these forums I always knew something sinister was up but I just had no idea why.
Perusing most threads in the dev forum, especially on the first page of each thread, you end up seeing mostly character assassination attempts being made at the thread poster. "You didn't do this," "that isn't yours" but all those comments meant nothing to us new guys or the guys that only cared about the end product, the roms.
Basically what I'm saying is, internet, I love you but get over yourself.
I'm mostly a lurker, I don't post very much here, mostly due to the fact that I'm not an Android dev...
Having been member of various MOD communities since the late 90's, it's not just the donations/money that devs are worried about (though, donations/money IS a problem), it's all about bragging rights and "being known" or "popular" in the community. When someone spends any significant amount of time working on projects such as these, they want to be recognized within (and outside of) the community as the one(s) who brought the project to life... When someone downloads your work, makes a few insignificant changes and then releases it as his own work, the original dev(s) have the right to be angry... I'm not saying ALL devs are like this (many simply do not care to be known within the community, they just want to help), but many of them are.
I for one am thankful for all the hard work devs do, if it wasn't for them, we'd be stuck with the stock ROMs... Groups like Cyanogen's team are what a community should be, everyone putting their ideas/changes/fixes into 1 big pot to make the best ROMs possible, instead of having 20 different ROMs from various devs... Although yes, choice is good, it also limits the quality of the ROMs in question, if there was 3-4 core groups with 4-5 devs in each group all working together to bring excellent ROMs to the table, we'd be much better off.
It just seems that people don't get what a community is all about, it's to share ideas/code so we ALL benefit from it, devs and users alike.
Of course, this is just my humble opinion, different communities have different ideas/people who make these communities what they are.
Well, in my opinion Android is open-source.. Yes. But when people use skills that they have to improve on Android development for our older phone is just peachy.
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
Most people seem to think he is innocent as Android is open source, open source yes but, we have rights to those codes, then when people release their modified/hacked version its alright (open source affect). As I said above the problem begins when people take other people's work and label it as their own.
Blackman778g said:
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
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Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?
dezvous said:
Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop
vixsandlee said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop
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So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.
People need to get off of their "Open Source" high horse if they don't understand the law.
AOSP is open source (at least most of it, there are still several necessary blobs), and the code there is freely available to anybody. However, the work produced from AOSP is anything but free.
Most of AOSP is released under a very permissive Apache 2.0 license. Under this license, any modification to the code is the property of the programmer to release as they wish. Had I wanted it that way, I could have released my whole build under a very mean license that would relentlessly pursue anybody who dared post even a single part of my release anywhere else. If one of those md5s matches, there'd be problem.
Also, the license allows me to release the rom without having to release the source (like the GPL does), so basically, Android is free and open source, but only referring to the code you download from AOSP, not any half-assed code that any random joe puts up online. So, from that standpoint, NO, ANDROID IS NOT OPEN SOURCE AND EVERYBODY'S PROPERTY.
Also, how can somebody let the "Open Source" and "people's property" and "law" words out of their mouths when they take no heed to the shameless stealing of google's, htc's, and qualcomm's (plus others') IP that's being pushed ON EVERY SINGLE ROM, WINMO, ANDROID, OR ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS WHOLE FORUM!!!!.
I dare anybody to show me their license to re-distribute all code from all involved companies.
"But, android is free, isn't it?"
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Guess what an android build with nothing but free parts would look like?
Remember those broken SDK builds where nothing worked, there was no radio, no gapps, no audio?
That's the current state of "open source"...
It has nothing to do with the state of the legality of distributions. In fact, the whole thing is ridiculous, for example, where a certain mod who I won't name went on a holy quest against QuickOffice calling it "warez" but shamelessly ignored that pretty much everything else on the Dream forum, hell, on the whole site, is nothing but a big stinking pile of warez. I still wonder what that one was about...
vixsandlee said:
But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
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Here's the real problem with XDA; all those people thinking "Oh devs are some sort of god, they make the best things, we're not worthy, I'm dumb and I can't contribute, so I'll just send some money".
Guess what? Now you're really being stupid. Any dumb chap can put the effort, with enough dedication, to make their own personal builds. Most of us doing this are geeks, a lot of us are a-holes, and I could assure you that the vast majority of us could give two f**cks if that thing you flashed is boot-looping even though it worked for us. As far as we're concerned, you screwed up and should have read better.
We weren't born tied to a computer. We had to work for what we know, and if you people want to be a retard and give money for something easy, then that's up to you, but you all really have to stop that dumb attitude that "devs" are somehow better than you. Only difference is that this is where we decided to put our interest at.
Now, this brings me back to topic. So, what if some guy took my build. I could have done something about it. I certainly did have the legal ease to do so. Turns out, I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other. You people are paying too much attention to trivialities. You're trying to put this on some sort of clash of the giants where guys are either good guys or bad guys. You're judging a "dev"'s personal qualities based on the quality of their work. If they pull up an underhanded, kangilistic build, then you judge them.
I can assure you that the makers of the most "stable", most "fastest", most popular build out there are as much douchebags as you, me, or anybody else is.
Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.
It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.
lbcoder said:
It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.
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I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?
So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.
dezvous said:
So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.
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It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").
I thought we were mostly pissed because he only "deved" until he got enough money for a new phone, then just quit. When he needed the next new phone, here he comes again. Never really kept up with King and his shenanigans. Honestly, all his builds sucked to me. They all bootlooped if I didn't have apps2sd. Nty.
macsbac said:
I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?
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Yes, quit talking about the guy likes he's ****ing God. Excuse my french, but everyone acts like cyanogen fell from the sky on a golden comet from Mars. He's a great dev, no doubt, and I'm not bashing him. However, he is a human, you know that, right? If he ever stole source and claimed it as his, I'm sure the mods would do their job and the same thing would happen. However, that's not the case here and that argument of "if he did it i bet nothing would happen" should have died out in fourth third grade.
lbcoder said:
It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").
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This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.
A lot of interesting posts here, I'm enjoying this discussion. Glad I started it.
macsbac said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.
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You really got the wrong end of the stick and ran with it. Calm down. KingKlick is no loss to this community, we can all use winzip.
macsbac said:
So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.
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Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
macsbac said:
Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.
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Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?
Blackman778g said:
Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
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As for the reason, i have evidence he intentionally copied at least 2 Roms from respectable Android developers, renamed the and called them his own.
I dont have time, due too work, no internet at work
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Strange that because the moderators are only questioning two ROMs. The only one they mention is that of Jebah's and he has made his position quite clear repeatedly. Yes many, many ROMs from most developers do not credit others and its not a problem unless the creator of the original ROM complains as per rule 12.
Blackman778g said:
Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?
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Really the truth
He isn't banned at the moment, for later today, will be sending him a PM to open a thread in PUBLIC and explain himself.
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Again KingKlick was clearly locked a day before any moderator even PM'd and the moderator in question Mikey1022 clearly let his intentions be known before KingKlick was asked to explain, before Jebah made any complaint and then made some bogus allegations about donations as an excuse to break the forums own rules.
Why public?? For the simple reason.........he kept shoving a donation link in every thread he created, unlike the other developers, he copy-catted from.
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Despite KingKlick being forced to put a donation link into every signature as defined in xda rules. Effectively Mikey1022 is punishing KingKlick here for following xda rules.
We can not/should not allow developers coping roms, collecting money on others hard work. As he calls it his own.
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Yet I want Mikey1022 to post a quote or link to where KingKlick called this ROM his own. Or where he asked for a donation for this ROM specifically. Somehow I think he will fail to respond to this post as the others when I asked the same questions.
A couple mods on here know about King and his crap he has been pulling off, so it's not a big surprise.
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Then the clear bias continues and the decision to ban KingKlick was pre-empted before any sort of truth was established. The main one being Jubah had no problem with KingKlick using his ROM and did not raise any concerns with an XDA moderator. As such no rule was broken and issue should have been dropped in lines with xda rules. Again who raised the complaint? nobody knows. For the extreme public castration of KingKlick Mikey1022 and his fellow mods have kept quiet, why have they not even told the community what KingKlicks punishment is or given any reason for it?
Do you think its a coincidence that this complaint was apparently raised when KingKlick refused to become butt buddies with cyanogen or be on "team douche". That cyanogen lost the bap with a post full of explicit language used in a direct insult in violation of xda rules. No public castration there though and I have to ask why? Then I can ask why some of cyanogens dogs of can admit to starting flame wars directed a KingKlick for a sustained period of time and yet this clear violation of rules led to no public castration. How further after 3 days of flaming and direct insults firerat even as good as admits his aim is to remove KingKlick from the xda community yet again no public castration there.
These people say KingKlicks ROMs are just renamed zips that's ok but as a 32b owner and constant ROM flasher why do KingKlicks roms always run better on my device than the others.
Its almost unbelievable that a forum I have been following for a while now can allow a group of developers to exclude another developer from an open source project. Its much more vile than anything KingKlick has been accused of. The moderators of this forum should be hanging their heads in shame.
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
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The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
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I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
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This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
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No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
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I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
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I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
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Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
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Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us
Guys, recent developments in the Dev forums are driving away young developers. Sure, currently, they might not be able to do much more than cook a rom, but I've used a few of those roms and for months they were a good alternative to miui. Everyone needs to start somewhere.
Sure, mistakes were made in giving props, and maybe they don't quite understand what xda fundamentally is just yet, but to start bashing them once we realized that some other developer on a different forum was able to deliver a solid cm12.1 build was rather distasteful. I would have liked for us to nurture this guy who has clearly spent a lot of time on rom development already, and could have potentially make great contributions in the future.
My 2c.
Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk
+1, I agree... I understand the perspective of both sides, but too bad it could not have been worked out privately instead of publicly bashing each other.
I agree it is best to build not destroy
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I also found it very childish the sort of tactics you would expect from big companies like Apple.
If it was a cooked rom with some tweaks for whatever then what is the problem just get the person to state this and people can choose if they want to use it or not.
Just noticed the guy we are talking about has had to make his own board private now with people going over there and moaning.
I don't want to just be a "me too" on this topic, so I will add another point. I do cook ROMs myself occasionally, to make them what I would prefer them to be from the start. I have often wondered whether I should share my "work". Yes, it is work, and it takes a lot of time that one could spend doing gainfully something else, and it is risky, because I have bricked my devices many times in the process of cooking ROMs. I have shared some of my "work" in the past, but, given what has just transpired here, I think I will keep my work to myself in future. Even though some may benefit from it, life is too short to be taking online abuse.
Lesson learned. You can bashing whoever you want if you 'smart enough' or 'serious dev fanboy'.
Keep Bashinnggg... Yeaaay..
I agree. Now we have no dev / cooker / what the f$&% you want anymore on xda. That's only because some users think always bad instead of motivate young 'ROM workers'.
So now this very stupid people are invited to open a new thread to index original developers works, as we don't know Chinese in order to get a fuc++ng ROM from chinese web sites.
And, please, stop to be so strong with other people... Life won't be always easy as it is behind of a screen.
I'm not up to speed about what's happening around here, but looking at the dev section, I understand who the "dev" in question is. But what exactly happened?
Edit: never mind, found it.
Sent from my Redmi Note 2
Although my immediate concern is with my phone, OnePlus 5, the following remarks may well apply to all phones and all custom ROMs.
Most of us install a custom ROM and root our devices for three reasons: customisation, long(er) battery life and avoiding Google's invasive habits (disable Wakelocks, disable Alarms, debloat, etc.).
To my great disappointment, many of the developers do not care to follow new paths. The result is that most "custom" ROMs are frighteningly similar! Trust me, I have tried more than a few, almost all which are available. Developers borrow features from each other (notice how many acknowledgements there are in the introduction to a "new" ROM) and hasten to include many of the things we are trying to avoid! The result? It is ridiculous to have a "debloater" for "custom" ROMs. But it exists, and it has its own (very well visited) thread.
What does this show? That someone should dare to do some real work and some real research. Please, spend some time learning what does what. Ask Google. They are legally bound to respond.
I am tired of uninstalling crap from my "custom" ROM.
Give us a really slim ROM and, if you like these Google apps so much, tell us what they do and where we can find them if we need them. Yes, true, I know some apps cannot be installed afterwards, but I much prefer to lose some obscure functionality than spending hours uninstalling things from my "custom" ROM. (IFAA's etc. etc.)
Also: it would be nice if you do not choose a messaging app for us. Do not choose a browser for us. Do not choose themes for us. Tell us, instead, where we can find them, where you so diligently stored them awaiting for their lovers. Let us have a really, really, slim ROM.
Why the sudden rush of idiots who can't read the development forum rules?
"Give us"
Apart from this post being totally inappropriate in development thread, it is also arrogant, in my view.
Why don't you ask for your money back instead....
I do not need to respond to a rude comment, which is based on the "forum rules", as if this is some kind of private enterprise which I invaded and defamed. I thought that one of the reasons for the existence of such fora is the free expression of ideas....
So, you have been offended because I said "give us"? What should I say? Go down to my knees and beg? Spare us the semantic acrobatics and respond to the essence of the post, if you think you have something to say. I do not have to be here, neither do you or anyone else, and sarcasm is welcome, if and only if it also touches on the main issues. Otherwise, it is an "ad hominem", unjustified idiocy.
P.S. I am sure that if the contents is inappropriate, some moderator will delete my post.
Anti-root said:
I am sure that if the contents is inappropriate, some moderator will delete my post.
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No one moderates posts, until someone complains. You think moderators are paid salaries?
Being humble is always a big plus in this forum, but you show the opposite. You can freely exchange ideas without being arrogant. Nobody owes you anything, but you behave like an angry consumer, who is not satisfied with a product and wants his money back. So, don't expect anyone to address the 'essence' of your 'idea'..
Learn about compiling a Rom, it's actually not that much of magic as it looks like at first glance. Then learn how to remove the features you don't want, it's also not as difficult if you want to invest a bit of time and brains. Then you can have a Rom that entirely suits your own needs
Anti-root said:
I do not need to respond to a rude comment, which is based on the "forum rules", as if this is some kind of private enterprise which I invaded and defamed. I thought that one of the reasons for the existence of such fora is the free expression of ideas....
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Actually no, a private forum is running based on its own rules, free speech can be performed on a different place.
Anti-root said:
So, you have been offended because I said "give us"? What should I say? Go down to my knees and beg? Spare us the semantic acrobatics and respond to the essence of the post, if you think you have something to say. I do not have to be here, neither do you or anyone else, and sarcasm is welcome, if and only if it also touches on the main issues. Otherwise, it is an "ad hominem", unjustified idiocy.
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Self-entitlement and a demanding attitude is the last thing we want to see here, where the developers are freely sharing stuff with us from their free time, this only entitles us to be respectfull, nothing more
Anti-root said:
P.S. I am sure that if the contents is inappropriate, some moderator will delete my post.
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here you are almost right, I`d close this thread now considering that you`ve got your answer, it was going nowhere anyway and btw I have moved it to the correct area. The OnePlus 5 ROMs, Kernels, Recoveries, & Other Development section where you have been initially posted, is only a development section and not for general talk.