Database Users

Can we no longer ask opinion based questions?

Ok So whats this new level of idiocy, are we now trully saying that one can not ask a question that involkes opinions and subjective answers, the threads could contain factual information and objective opinions but i guess we shall never know beacuse they get closed...
I am actually supprised its got this low, if you think about it almost any question answered will be subjected to an opinional bias WE ARE HUMANS
So the two "Which ROM?" questions threads get closed i think we are all big enough to realise that what one person feels is good may not be to another but we all read reviews in mags, we all read reviews on the internet and they suffer the same problems with bias you cant remove that fact, you read the responces and judge for your self, blimey what is going on here!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=489979&page=2
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=490053

There are a ton of new ROMs out there now and it is impossible to get a "feel" of the way they perform unless you spend all of your time flashing ROMs. Constructive discussion of ROMs and their strong and weak points shouldn't be cause for public shame.

[URL=http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=canofwormsy.jpg]
[/URL]
or...
A: "Dutty's ROMs are the best!"
B: "F*** off, David's the best."
C: "You two know f*** all about ROMs; Neo's the best!"
--ad infinitum

Matterhorn said:
There are a ton of new ROMs out there now and it is impossible to get a "feel" of the way they perform unless you spend all of your time flashing ROMs. Constructive discussion of ROMs and their strong and weak points shouldn't be cause for public shame.
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Agreed, not everyone has the time, patience, ability, confidence to be flashing rom after rom, especially someone new to flashing. And for any user coming to these forums there is a bewildering amount of different roms and information. No one is asking for a be all and end all answer, but to get some opinions for a starting point can be very useful and inspire a bit of confidence to actually get going.
As long as constructive opinions are given, I personally don't see anything wrong in this. An answer as to why someone uses a rom for a particular reason may be the exact criteria that another person is looking for and might save that person a LOT of time and effort trying many roms first just to end up at that same rom.
The threads dazza mentioned I thought were being dealt with very constructively with some good advice in there. No one wants any flame war or anyone just being competitive with their chosen rom but please lets have some perspective, and credit most people with some intelligence and let some constructive discussion be allowed.

TraumaX said:
As long as constructive opinions are given, I personally don't see anything wrong in this. An answer as to why someone uses a rom for a particular reason may be the exact criteria that another person is looking for and might save that person a LOT of time and effort trying many roms first just to end up at that same rom.
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Totally agree. What harm can come from contructive opinions. This may save a person numerous flashes and time. Where is the harm in that?
It saved me time when I first joined and flashed my first ROM!!

Indeed, ill not flash a ROM unless ive had a good read about others views, its my choice to listen to them or not, theres just simply too many ROMS and versions of ROMs to not allow this constructive debate.

Blackstone users have not invented the habit to ask about which ROM is the best, which to use, etc.
Threads like these get closed because very simple reasons: the discussions in the respective threads are based solely on subjective opinions and experiences.
Every ROM has description in the ROM thread and plenty of feedback inside. What might suit me would most probably not suit you. It all comes down to users' needs and what and how they use their devices. ROM expectations are based on these. Thus, asking questions about ROMs would normally generate answer pointing in a direction other users might find wrong.
All ROMs are public, with their description and feedback inside. Nobody stops users from testing and trying ROMs, according to their tasted and expectations.
I was the one closing those threads and will continue closing similar threads.
In case you have objections, complain to site Admin regarding this issue and do not throw your anger at the XDA community which supports us all.
Moving this thread to General as it has nothing to do with ROM developent!

tnyynt said:
In case you have objections, complain to site Admin regarding this issue and do not throw your anger at the XDA community which supports us all.
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With respect, I don't see any anger here towards XDA, just opinions again. I don't think anyone is suggesting people shouldn't read and do some research, of course they should, but there are a lot of roms, some with hundreds of pages of feedback, and it can be pretty daunting. To be sure, there is a lot of help within each of threads for the individual roms but to get some perspective and comparison of them from those who have already tried many of them with some (subjective) opinions can be extremely helpful in my view.

With respect, its not feasable to test every single ROM to get a feel for them all before maknig a choice, you dont buy a car by trying out every single car on the road, you read reviews which are ALL subjective and opinionated and then rate those experiences to your needs, that limits your choices which then allows you to try it out,
everyone knows that an opinion is just that, its a user opinion, its a view of that individual. To stop all subjective / opinionated remarks would effectively shut down the website.
For instance a thread on the Touch HDs camera speed would be factual in the sence that everyone knows its crap with moving pictures, but the thread would always be subjective since other users will notice this more, you cant stop that trate in humans its in our nature, so long as the comments are not designed to personally attack anothers view the thread will live an die on its on accord with out the need to moderate them.
With regards to why i published this, it is in the communities intrest to know what they can and cant do, im not attacking you personally for closing them, just the "rules" behind the decision. but if we are not able to keep this thread civil and it gets closed then yes ill pass on my comments to the admin instead.
We are all (mostly) adults on here lets not bring the nanny state here as well.

I can add my 5 cents here.... this is a well known problem, in every forum.
You can open a thread asking "What ROM are you using and WHY?" and IMHO this could be interesting, but asking " ROM Ratings...Your Opinions" or worst " What ROM is the best for me?" are tricky questions, because RATING and OPINIONS doesn't fit well together in the first case and BEST FOR you? ...who knows is the first answer I have in mind
This doesn't seems to have high relevance but those threads could be, on the dark side, "Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs)", starting a flame war against or pro single chefs.
Are "dangerous" threads, a thread, may be with a poll, "What rom are you using and WHY" could be dangerous but interesting and will survive ONLY if users are responsible and avoid a flame war
Thanks, 5 cents donated

As tynnyt said "this is not a blackstone problem".
This issue was discussed to death here : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466666
Thanks
Dave

i don't have time to test each rom and for each of them to test every aspects in order to have my own conclusion.
as many others from here, would very intersted in the answer wich rom is best, but i am old enough (you would be surprised) to know that there is no answer to that question. from different reasons, pointed enough around here
what i want to suggest is a different approach, ofcourse if mods and admins will find that useful
instead in statement like x rom is better than y rom, or z rom rules, maybe guys who use or test different roms can give a feedback to others, with little experience, time or dare, concerning few aspects of the rom
for instance:
user noris08 (me) uses frank's rom v.1.5.12345. i would qualify that like that:
- glamurous looking
- moderate usability
- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)
- not so good speed
- extremely good for memory management (75% free)
- fix following known issues:
1. fix stutters in audio playing
2. add hardware acceleration for coreplayer
3. 3G signal always on 5 bars
4. gps fix in 5 sec
4. so on
- noticed bugs:
1. alarm clock doesn't work in stand by
2. appoinments shown with 2 hours delay
3. so on
- i would recomend it for mutimedia users
- i would rate it 7/10
it is likely that will be only a few guys with big harts to post their impressions, but is more then nothing.
in this way maybe we will not hurt rom developers feelings by just comparing x rom with y rom. they will also have some feed back concerning their work, appart of "thanks and great job mate"
just a thought!
cheers to everybody!

I agree 100% with the above post.

That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.

we're all big and old enough to know the difference, i think its quite disrespectful to ban such questions for several reasons, but something that is quite relevent is language.
English isnt everyones native language, gramatically speaking it might read to us as "which is the best ROM ever" but that might not be what they ment.
but whatever, seems minds are made and common sence has taken another knock back at the expence of so called politcal correctness, in this case offending the egos of the cookers out strips the need for new inexperienced users wanting simple feedback from the community about something without having to drudge through 1000s of pages of posts and spending much of there free time trying out every last ROM out there.
Just seems crazy if you ask me.

tnyynt said:
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
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I agree, this would be a good thread to start, i.e. benchmarking the ROMs procedure, software used, etc

tnyynt said:
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
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but using your logic, is it factual?
"- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)"
hell i have that ROM and its only lasting 10 days, instantly it becomes opinionated and subjectional
ok thats an extreme example, but even with a very well laid out feedback such as that people will disagree, you have to either ban them all or let adults use their own common sence.
I would like to say add guide lines for "which ROM" requests but another human trait is that they wont read them either.

dazza9075 said:
but using your logic, is it factual?
"- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)"
hell i have that ROM and its only lasting 10 days, instantly it becomes opinionated and subjectional
ok thats an extreme example, but even with a very well laid out feedback such as that people will disagree, you have to either ban them all or let adults use their own common sence.
I would like to say add guide lines for which ROM requests but another human trait is that they wont read them in the first place.
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Wasn't talking about battery (but even that could be reported as Radio + ROM + usage) but about using the same benchmark tool that needs to run in the same circumstances (i.e: after hard reset, manila disabled, etc.), about reporting memory usage after start up and after a day's usage, reporting bugs, etc.
I.E.:
SKTools benchmark:
X
X
X
X
Battery:
5 days with
A Radio
B Rom
X calls/day, X minutes of wifi, X no. of messages
Memory after startup:
X used
Storage memory after hard reset:
X used
Startup time:
X seconds from vibrate till stable today screen
etc.

id agree, a simple standardised benchmark runing a number of tests over a few hours would give a good account without the opinions, any suggestions?

dazza9075 said:
id agree, a simple standardised benchmark runing a number of tests over a few hours would give a good account without the opinions, any suggestions?
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You Guys find a way out and ellaborate the procedure that'd help you most. I gave you some hints. I'll support that, and I believe so will my fellow MOD colleagues.

The best roms............. coming soon

I have read many posts where people are asking which is the best rom for my device (and have done myself) only to get abrupt replies with something like "how dare you ask this, chefs put a lot of effort into each rom and its down to personal preferance blah blah" ................"THREAD CLOSED"
Does every one think think this is the best way for xda to be run or is there other people that think this should be allowed to be debated? I know this is originally a developer forum, however I would hazard a guess that there is now more public users that devolpers.
The thing is developers develope roms and yes certainly they put a lot of time and effort into it and are respected rightly so for it. however can the end user really be expected not to be allowed to discuss these roms on the forum only to be told the above mensioned things. It happens time and again over and over. People like myself (the end user) do not have time to flash every rom to find the ones they like. (its a days setting up for myself after a flash) and if its crap (which there is no denying. some are) its a day wasted.
What I think the forum needs is a "ROM USER REVIEW" section where people like myself can go and rate a rom for other users referance.
Surely this is the key to better roms. If one developers rom is poor hes going to be able to see that its poor and will/might take the user rating / comments on board and the next time try harder.... ultimately producing a better rom.
Competition is what makes better products, If handset manufacturers took the same stance as xda we would be waiting for the realease of the o2 xda 2s later this year. and this is the same in all industries.

Totally agree, people that make good ROMs should be applauded by some kind of user rating system. same way people can avoid wasting time flashing not so good or buggy ones.

jaxouk said:
I have read many posts where people are asking which is the best rom for my device (and have done myself) only to get abrupt replies with something like "how dare you ask this, chefs put a lot of effort into each rom and its down to personal preferance blah blah" ................"THREAD CLOSED"
Does every one think think this is the best way for xda to be run or is there other people that think this should be allowed to be debated? I know this is originally a developer forum, however I would hazard a guess that there is now more public users that devolpers.
The thing is developers develope roms and yes certainly they put a lot of time and effort into it and are respected rightly so for it. however can the end user really be expected not to be allowed to discuss these roms on the forum only to be told the above mensioned things. It happens time and again over and over. People like myself (the end user) do not have time to flash every rom to find the ones they like. (its a days setting up for myself after a flash) and if its crap (which there is no denying. some are) its a day wasted.
What I think the forum needs is a "ROM USER REVIEW" section where people like myself can go and rate a rom for other users referance.
Surely this is the key to better roms. If one developers rom is poor hes going to be able to see that its poor and will/might take the user rating / comments on board and the next time try harder.... ultimately producing a better rom.
Competition is what makes better products, If handset manufacturers took the same stance as xda we would be waiting for the realease of the o2 xda 2s later this year. and this is the same in all industries.
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I think the mods should close this thread too. If you don't have enough time to flash them all then take a look at what the chefs have on the menu then take a plunge based on what you think will be good for you.
The best ROMs are combination of various things to various people. I like my ROMs light and fully loaded, I like them fast, stable and I want the maximum internal storage. So how are you going to define this best ROM for me or others? There some great ROMs out there that do not fit my bill but it does not mean there are not among the best ROMs (again my view will be different than yours).
Now the warning about how there are more users then they are chefs is nothing new to developers. If they were not more users then developers, we would not need developers because you would not have the demand. That is simple economics.
To the end if you are not going to try all the ROMs and provide your opinion base on your publicly define logic of what is the best, then this will be another useless thread. This is exactly what others have done by providing benchmarks which are useful if you are into benchmarks. However, I do use the benchmark information to get numbers I am interested in (like internal storage, memory, etc...).
This is not meant to kill your inspiration but your opening comments killed the entire thread for me even though it is only one post thus far. A little bit more friendly tone could have gone a long way. Either way I am not looking for a response to my comments that way we will see how this thread shapes up.

Well here we go again. There is no answer to which rom is the best. Its your choice.
Maybe you simply love a Ford car, but well others might hate a Ford car and choose a BMW instead. Its all up to personal experience. You use one rom in one way, and maybe that rom works better that way. Then some other dude will find that rom crap because he uses it in a whole other way. Maybe he wants to use his phone for navigation and calling, so he likes the rom a lot as it does what he wants it to, but you might complain that it is a crap rom because there are some sms bugs. The other user dosn't use sms writing so he dosn't recognize these bugs. This is only an example, but i hope you get my point
All discussion to a rom should be within the specific roms own thread.

i don't watch movies, buy stuff, listen to movies, etc because of their ratings given by others. so i pass on this

umhhh. i started a similar thread i had named ,'So who is the Master chef?'.it was harshly closed. never understood why.....

everyone loves his rom and his chef..can't really have an objective and representative rating system...
I know and undrstand where you are coming from...too many roms and one cannot choose...
with that said...if there WOULD BE a clear cut winning rom...then everybody would flash just that and the rest of the cook can retire...this way every cook has his "followers" and thus we have this large amount of roms and they all get updated and improved over time...
those like me and you that do not have the time...well then they cannot afford to flash too many roms...its that simple...if you are expecting someone to offer you a new best rom every day and then you just come home and flash it every night...well that service won't be happening...
and yes I believe we have 1000s of leechers and only a dozen cooks. xda developers is by far not just a developing community anymore...but then again we could be considered "beta testers".

I closed this thread, due to the same reason all the others that are similar all over xda are closed on sight.
These kind of threads usualy/always ends up in disputes and flamewars, there is always some hotheaded ppl who burst into flames when someone dont have the same view as they do.
So... sorry, yeah we close

[Q] XDA Censored ?

I just noticed this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=638133
May I ask why there is a ban on discussions of which ROMs are best?
Isn't that the whole point of a forum?
Is there anything else we should be aware of? banned words, certain sentences, are there any particular phrases that we can get into trouble for?
Ever heard of freedom of speech?
Am I going to get into trouble for this message because you don't like it?

Well i think it has nothing to do with ''censure''. Just some of us think that there is no BEST ROM and one should find out the BEST ROM for himself by himself.
But i may be wrong.

There is actualy no best rom!
For every user there is a best experience/stability/usefullness
How can you say its the best rom for me if it doesnt suit my taste?
Every HD2 behaves diferently from batch to batch, so another issue, for your hd2 one build may work perfect and for me - not at all...
No point in these threads.
Go in the apropreate build thread and post there, say whatever you like - it's the best, it's the worse...
I can't see any censureship here.

There is actualy no best rom!
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This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!

IanMc said:
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
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if all the mor... eh users where able to make just whatever post on the boards they liked everything would be a insane mess. topics that come along every week or so are usles they always have the same result. one user says THIS IS THE BEST !!!!!!!11111oneoneone the other says NO YOU SUCK THIS IS THE BEST !!!!!!!1111oneone and this wil go on for about 40 pages and still no one is any wiser.
In the meanwhile a good user just went along and found a rom he liked visually and with a nice amount of aps he likes. He found it was not his rom and try's another one and keeps trying until he finds his best rom.
The problem here is that alot of users have their opinions and they think their opinions are the only possible correct answer. And guess what oppinions can't be wrong. They can be different weird or even downright bizarre but they are all correct in their own world.
So you can create a topic and expect a flood of spam flame wars and rubbish but all it gets you is either a major Troll boner or a headache.

So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
In the meanwhile a good user just went along and found a rom he liked visually and with a nice amount of aps he likes. He found it was not his rom and try's another one and keeps trying until he finds his best rom.
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And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.

when you register acount on this site/forum,do you check YES/accept with the ruules

Because this is a development forum (or we try to be).
Disucssions on the "Best ROM" are subjective, and time limitted. Most people have thier faviorite ROM, this is not the best ROM, but they believe it is. I have seen these threads in the past and they just deteriate into "Fanboi'istic" (word a day ) debates over who's ROM is best and why.
A Clean ROM is fast and customisable, a Loaded ROM is feature rich, a themed ROM is the Chef's taste, etc.
Here is a lengthy discussion which I participated in last time this topic was raised : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466666
Thanks
Dave

No ROM is BEST !!!!!1111oneoneone11! (Though personally I think that ****** ROMs are good)

IanMc said:
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
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IanMc said:
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
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You can talk the hell out of it, no one is stopping you, just do it in the right place - the build thread.
If you don't like the way moderators run the forum you can delete the account and make your personal Freedom forum or whatever you like...
Personaly I think you are a joke.
Be well and speak freely
btw
As a fellow xda user said above: you accepted the rules which the creators/owners/moderators of this forum ask us to comply with. Period!

IanMc said:
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
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I see that you do not get the point of all this:
- that thread has been closed because it has no point.
- you can discuss the best rom thing for 1000 pages and there will be no BEST ROM, because there is no best rom.
-of course you can tell other people what you think about a rom but your best rom will not be my best rom
- so this is why that thread was closed.
-it is F***ING POINTLESS
- JUST LIKE THIS THREAD.

I agree this thread is totally pointless.
It would be great if a moderator closes it as it brings nothing to discuss just like the other thread that was closed.
If everyone would open a thread like this it would be very hard to find the best rom as the board
would be all cluttered with best rom threads and yes and no discussions.

DaveShaw
That was a very helpful post, the link you posted was most helpful and I especially agree with the well-crafted response from dumpydooby.
I apologise if I have posted in the wrong place and quite understand if this thread is moved to the correct place.
You are also correct that discussions of this nature are time limited.
Obviously we can all see that this is a subject of passion to many.
In my humble opinion there should always be a 'what we think is the best ROM for device X at the moment' thread. When it does get too old or argumentative etc. then just start a new one.
berbecverde
I disagree, I think there will always be a need to discuss the most popular combination of ROM/Radio/Apps of the moment. If you feel strongly that we should not have this freedom then I feel strongly that you are wrong.
lms1407
You just revert to personal insults, I'll bet you say things like 'this conversation is over!'
Avon76
Do you really think that your post was helpful? Honestly?
Massive post wot I prepared earlier follows, look away now if you're not interested.....
I suspect that this whole thread will be deleted or removed or force closed by the censors very soon so read it while you can.
Let me illustrate my points here, remember that I am talking about my dislike for censoring these forums in general for any topics but let's use the topic of discussion of ROMs to show how the censors are damaging the integrity of the forums and shooting themselves in their own feet at the same time.
Let's do it with a thought experiment.
Developers A, B, C and D develop ROMs for device X and make them available to users.
Users, quite within their rights in my opinion decide to discuss the various merits, likes and dislikes about these ROMs in a thread called 'Best ROMs for device X' where one user says 'I liked the graphics on A's ROM but I really liked the apps on D's ROM and I found C's ROM to be a bit unstable and I'm using ROM B at the moment because ...... '
Please imagine your answer for this question.
Who will benefit from this discourse?
Developers A, B, C or D ?
The users ?
Everyone ?
It is quite obvious that some of the users with the ability to close threads have the opinion that all ROMs should be tried and that there should be no shortcuts and new users should be railroaded into having to go through all the procedures that 'everyone else has had to do' and their only method to enforce this policy is to censor what is allowed to be posted but I would like to point out that in doing so they are going against some peoples wishes, look at one of the posts in that other thread (created by a senior member) where one user states:
Personally think this thread is a good idea for people like myself don't have a lot of spare time and haven't flashed a ROM yet; but are interested in doing so and want to know a good place to start, based on more seasoned users experiences.
I for one will be keenly viewing this thread (provided it doesn't get closed!).
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Click to collapse
However apart from all the unseen damage that censorship causes, in this particular case the developers might get some valuable insight into what users are actually looking for, a healthy competition might be the result and then who do you think is going to get the benefit in the end? Everyone!
There will always be those who want to try every ROM and Radio etc. but at the moment these people are restricted to the individual ROM threads if they want to share the results of their hard work and anyone who wants to see an objective discussion of the merits of the different ROM/Radio/Apps versions is forced to look on other forums on other websites.
The developers never really get to know what it is that the users really want.
Look at the mechanism at the moment, the user goes to the thread of developer A and says 'you're ROM is the best! Fantastic!, would it be possible to adjust this bit here?' and the developer thinks cool, they really love my ROM and he may or may not get around to adjusting that bit there.
Look at what it could be like:
Yeah, developer A's ROM is ok but I user developer B's ROM at the moment coz A's doesn't do this ...'
No kissass required, if developer A wants everyone to use his ROM then he'll need to make it like everyone wants or better.

Laurentius26
I see the massive amount of posts that you have made, I'm sure that you have been of tremendous help to a lot of people and that your opinion probably carries a lot of weight around here but I have to ask this question, would you not agree that the definition of a pointless post is that no-one replies to it?
Would you not agree that the mere fact that this topic is getting a lot of replies would indicate that it is in fact a topic of interest and therefore cannot be regarded as pointless?

I can see the potential advantages of having such threads, but seeing the number of arguments and fall outs users have already regarding ROMs abilities, chef preferences, what makes a good ROM, etc. it would fail.
If all our users were well bahaved (which they are not), they all stayed on-topic then we wouldn't need as many mods as we do now. As it is, there are many reported posts everyday from users that require mods attention, keeping the forum as organised and as friendly as we can.
Having to maintain "Best ROM" threads would be tiresome with well behaved users, just having to keep closing and re-opening new threads based on public opinion, but throw in troll, flamer's, fanbois it would be work.
In the past we have allowed "ROM Comparison" threads, that are fact driven, not opinion driven, as there is no reason not to.
My other concern is what will happen to Chefs if other users constantly down vote their ROM's (that is if they want to follow that thread as well as their own ROM threads).
Also,
Closing a thread does not censor it. It is still viewable and searchable, new useres, can search the site for the "Best HD2 ROM" and find a link to threads explaining why they are closed and what's the best way to try a new ROM. In guides I have previously assisted in writing (mskip's, Kaiser and Rhodium) it includes text advising users which is ROM to try first. If a user is new to XDA, they are encouraged to post questions in such threads, where (all been well) they will get a reply telling them to just try one after reading about the features. I have suggested NRG's ROMs to new users in the past because of their stability and popularity.
Dave

Well now with good argument like that you are changing my outlook and many of the things you say I had not considered.
I think we are very lucky to have such a place as XDA-Developers and such places show the big guns that there is also genius in the little folk.
If it proves to be too much work to maintain such threads then I quite understand why you won't have them although I can imagine a good moderator might keep an eye on such a thread and take an action like 'I am closing this thread now as it is degenerating into argument and insult, you are welcome to start a new one but be advised that I will close it also unless the discussion is kept at an acceptable level of civility' but if that is too much work then I quite understand why such a topic would not be allowed.
Thanks for your good discussion Dave, at least you don't revert to personal insults as a mechanism for argument

IanMc said:
Well now with good argument like that you are changing my outlook and many of the things you say I had not considered.
I think we are very lucky to have such a place as XDA-Developers and such places show the big guns that there is also genius in the little folk.
If it proves to be too much work to maintain such threads then I quite understand why you won't have them although I can imagine a good moderator might keep an eye on such a thread and take an action like 'I am closing this thread now as it is degenerating into argument and insult, you are welcome to start a new one but be advised that I will close it also unless the discussion is kept at an acceptable level of civility' but if that is too much work then I quite understand why such a topic would not be allowed.
Thanks for your good discussion Dave, at least you don't revert to personal insults as a mechanism for argument
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For a bit of history this decision was made long before I was a mod, and spent my Senior member days handing out insults to those who created those threads.
Even back then when a good number of users were mature and technical, before android and the mass increase of new members with, the mods (a few still remain ) knew the problems with such threads. As such, I don't think we will ever shift from this position.
Also,
I am a stackoverflow.com user and they have a similar rules on subjective posting for many of the same reasons.

This thread is just retarded even more then the ridiculous "what the best rom" threads.
Those threads are not "censored" they are simply moved or deleted because people are getting sick of them as they are asked every day and the answer is the same every time but still you get n00bs asking.
Its like going into ice0cream shop and saying "hey what your best ice-cream", just plain stupid.

TheATHEiST
Well surely this is just your own personal opinion?
One thread in each ROM area dedicated to users findings of the various ROMs for that device could be invaluable for both developers and users instead of the complete labyrinth it is at the moment (although I read that the HD2 forums are going to be rearranged soon). And it might be a moderator decision to close the thread when it gets too large to keep it current, civil and up-to-date.
However I think people like Dave are the only ones who really know what it is like to maintain such threads.
I would like to point out though that such public forums are for public discussion, it is all too easy to say 'hey that subject is retarded' and attempt to frighten or bully people away from discussing a subject that you don't think is appropriate, but personally I think that is wrong and against the spirit of free discussion on the internet.

IanMc said:
TheATHEiST
Well surely this is just your own personal opinion?
One thread in each ROM area dedicated to users findings of the various ROMs for that device could be invaluable for both developers and users instead of the complete labyrinth it is at the moment (although I read that the HD2 forums are going to be rearranged soon). And it might be a moderator decision to close the thread when it gets too large to keep it current, civil and up-to-date.
However I think people like Dave are the only ones who really know what it is like to maintain such threads.
I would like to point out though that such public forums are for public discussion, it is all too easy to say 'hey that subject is retarded' and attempt to frighten or bully people away from discussing a subject that you don't think is appropriate, but personally I think that is wrong and against the spirit of free discussion on the internet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go buy a CHE t shirt and go yell at the white house fight the power and all its censorship. Seriously you accepted rules when you registered here. This is not a democracy this is a privately owned forum where moderators decide if some topic is retarded yes or no.
And i hate to bring it to you like this but a retarded monkey fish is less retarded then that topic. No amount of talking or trying to convince your topic is something different then the next what build is best for my HD2 because i am to lazy to search topic. That kind of topic gets closed nearly EVERY DAY.
So again if you are so keen to fight the power buy a che t shirt and go yell at your local government.

[SUGGESTION] ROM Reviews, Comparisons, Rankings,

With the dozens of ROMS out there for our device, it would be nice and helpful if a thread was made where people could post an in-depth comparison between these roms and possibly even a ranking system in terms of downloads, review score, user feedback etc. Another possibility is a guide that would help them choose the best ROM for them.
I've been on my custom rom ever since but that decision came after hours and hours of research and reading the threads of the other ROM chefs and visiting other websites as well. It would be really helpful to the newer members who would like to modify their phones to have a dedicated review thread/area where everything is there to read.
I know this sounds lazy but it would save hundreds of research hours and make choosing the right rom suited for each individual faster and easier.
I could do it if I had the proper experience and knowledge, but sadly, I am but a noob.
I'm just throwing ideas around and see if this is a good idea. Anyone interested in this? The community will be in gratitude if this becomes a reality

i think i posted in the wrong subforum? uhmm... sorry mods. Please move if inappropriate.

I don't think this is such a good idea, to be honest
First, it might be cause for some rather immature users to go about saying this or that is the best or this is better than that in so and so ROM etc. It's hard to find people who can give good reviews because no matter what, there's always that bias and sense of loyalty. Even comparative reviews may be hard to come by because I don't think a lot of people use a particular ROM for a long enough period of time before jumping to try another one (or they just try one, and stick to that one for whatever reason..be it because they're satisfied already, or aren't the type to want to try everything out) then once they settle on one they like, they can't really say much in terms of comparison about others they've tried before since ROMs constantly get updated. Like I may have stopped using a particular ROM because of bugs and such and move on to something else but who knows, those bugs could've been addressed already by then etc.
The thing of it is, someone will always have a different user experience from someone else. And it really depends on the person's usage of the phone. And it's really upto the user to do his/her own research. Because if we just have a thread where people will just look for whatever has the most reviews then they're just gonna jump right in to flash it perhaps without further in depth reading.. We already have a thread which is a constantly updated index of the ROMs already available. People can just start off from there, check out whatever seems appealing based on the description and jump to that thread for some further reading or ask their questions there. Opening up a thread like this might further fragment support around here. People might start asking questions on that thread, submit their complaints, ask for help, report problems etc. Even if you tell people to not do those things in that thread..well not everyone likes reading through all of the first post.
And unfortunately, not everyone is accustomed to use the ever helpful search box so they end up posting questions that already have been answered over and over again. And instead of checking out the step by step guides, they have people walk them through the process. Some people are so in a hurry to jump into custom ROMs that they end up making mistakes and bricking their phone. Some..how you say..rude users even go so far as to blame the ROM maker or the beta testers for not doing a good job because they have this or that freak bug they happen to get.
Not that I'm against helping people, especially newbies (I'm a helper on Doc's thread) but I think it would be a benefit to people especially new users to do some of their own research and discover things on their own. The respective threads of the ROMs provide more than enough information, reviews, complaints, help, guides etc.
People won't ever learn if they're spoon fed information and such all the time. I'm all for trying to make the whole experience easier for any kind of user, but I'm also all for people to do some of their own work and learn on their own. It's not just a matter of trying to save people time, it's a matter of letting people get the best user experience for them. It's not a matter of lessening the amount of people asking for help, but it's a matter of wanting them to learn.
Sometimes saving people time and effort isn't the best idea if it just gives them problems later they can't figure out on their own.
Sorry for the lengthy reply. Just my 100 pesos. Lol.
I don't mean any offense or whatever to anyone, okay? I love helping people when I have time and I just think helping people help themselves is the best. You know like..give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime..that kinda stuff.
I hope my post came off as logical and with all due respect.
Peace~

Preach
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

anoneemooz said:
I don't think this is such a good idea, to be honest
First, it might be cause for some rather immature users to go about saying this or that is the best or this is better than that in so and so ROM etc. It's hard to find people who can give good reviews because no matter what, there's always that bias and sense of loyalty. Even comparative reviews may be hard to come by because I don't think a lot of people use a particular ROM for a long enough period of time before jumping to try another one (or they just try one, and stick to that one for whatever reason..be it because they're satisfied already, or aren't the type to want to try everything out) then once they settle on one they like, they can't really say much in terms of comparison about others they've tried before since ROMs constantly get updated. Like I may have stopped using a particular ROM because of bugs and such and move on to something else but who knows, those bugs could've been addressed already by then etc.
The thing of it is, someone will always have a different user experience from someone else. And it really depends on the person's usage of the phone. And it's really upto the user to do his/her own research. Because if we just have a thread where people will just look for whatever has the most reviews then they're just gonna jump right in to flash it perhaps without further in depth reading.. We already have a thread which is a constantly updated index of the ROMs already available. People can just start off from there, check out whatever seems appealing based on the description and jump to that thread for some further reading or ask their questions there. Opening up a thread like this might further fragment support around here. People might start asking questions on that thread, submit their complaints, ask for help, report problems etc. Even if you tell people to not do those things in that thread..well not everyone likes reading through all of the first post.
And unfortunately, not everyone is accustomed to use the ever helpful search box so they end up posting questions that already have been answered over and over again. And instead of checking out the step by step guides, they have people walk them through the process. Some people are so in a hurry to jump into custom ROMs that they end up making mistakes and bricking their phone. Some..how you say..rude users even go so far as to blame the ROM maker or the beta testers for not doing a good job because they have this or that freak bug they happen to get.
Not that I'm against helping people, especially newbies (I'm a helper on Doc's thread) but I think it would be a benefit to people especially new users to do some of their own research and discover things on their own. The respective threads of the ROMs provide more than enough information, reviews, complaints, help, guides etc.
People won't ever learn if they're spoon fed information and such all the time. I'm all for trying to make the whole experience easier for any kind of user, but I'm also all for people to do some of their own work and learn on their own. It's not just a matter of trying to save people time, it's a matter of letting people get the best user experience for them. It's not a matter of lessening the amount of people asking for help, but it's a matter of wanting them to learn.
Sometimes saving people time and effort isn't the best idea if it just gives them problems later they can't figure out on their own.
Sorry for the lengthy reply. Just my 100 pesos. Lol.
I don't mean any offense or whatever to anyone, okay? I love helping people when I have time and I just think helping people help themselves is the best. You know like..give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime..that kinda stuff.
I hope my post came off as logical and with all due respect.
Peace~
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough. Well said kabayan! Initially, i thought that this was a good idea. Looking at things now, it's not so attractive after all. haha. Salamat!
MODS: Kindly requesting the closure and deletion of this thread please. Thanks!

@anoneemooz,
Just a hypothetical question, if it happens that Samsung release a froyo rom (2.2 only) and it comes with your native language locale with Swype as well would you still be in the latest rom, or would you stick to the rom with those features?
Not trying to flame, but would like an honest opinion about this.
Maraming salamat sa inyo!

g00ndu said:
@anoneemooz,
Just a hypothetical question, if it happens that Samsung release a froyo rom (2.2 only) and it comes with your native language locale with Swype as well would you still be in the latest rom, or would you stick to the rom with those features?
Not trying to flame, but would like an honest opinion about this.
Maraming salamat sa inyo!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not a flame at all haha!
Well, I'm pretty used to everything being in English and I'd prefer it actually. It's a major language in the Philippines. It's my first language too so I wouldn't switch. Maybe I'd install the Swype with Filipino, but I might rarely use it since I usually stick to English or Chinese except for the occasional Filipino words which I can just type out if need be.
As for the phone's locale..I'm happy with United States or France so I'd stick to custom ROMs probably for forever. 2.2.1 ROMs have been awesome and knowing our awesome devs around here...2.3 will be even better~

anoneemooz said:
I don't think this is such a good idea, to be honest
First, it might be cause for some rather immature users to go about saying this or that is the best or this is better than that in so and so ROM etc. It's hard to find people who can give good reviews because no matter what, there's always that bias and sense of loyalty. Even comparative reviews may be hard to come by because I don't think a lot of people use a particular ROM for a long enough period of time before jumping to try another one (or they just try one, and stick to that one for whatever reason..be it because they're satisfied already, or aren't the type to want to try everything out) then once they settle on one they like, they can't really say much in terms of comparison about others they've tried before since ROMs constantly get updated. Like I may have stopped using a particular ROM because of bugs and such and move on to something else but who knows, those bugs could've been addressed already by then etc.
The thing of it is, someone will always have a different user experience from someone else. And it really depends on the person's usage of the phone. And it's really upto the user to do his/her own research. Because if we just have a thread where people will just look for whatever has the most reviews then they're just gonna jump right in to flash it perhaps without further in depth reading.. We already have a thread which is a constantly updated index of the ROMs already available. People can just start off from there, check out whatever seems appealing based on the description and jump to that thread for some further reading or ask their questions there. Opening up a thread like this might further fragment support around here. People might start asking questions on that thread, submit their complaints, ask for help, report problems etc. Even if you tell people to not do those things in that thread..well not everyone likes reading through all of the first post.
And unfortunately, not everyone is accustomed to use the ever helpful search box so they end up posting questions that already have been answered over and over again. And instead of checking out the step by step guides, they have people walk them through the process. Some people are so in a hurry to jump into custom ROMs that they end up making mistakes and bricking their phone. Some..how you say..rude users even go so far as to blame the ROM maker or the beta testers for not doing a good job because they have this or that freak bug they happen to get.
Not that I'm against helping people, especially newbies (I'm a helper on Doc's thread) but I think it would be a benefit to people especially new users to do some of their own research and discover things on their own. The respective threads of the ROMs provide more than enough information, reviews, complaints, help, guides etc.
People won't ever learn if they're spoon fed information and such all the time. I'm all for trying to make the whole experience easier for any kind of user, but I'm also all for people to do some of their own work and learn on their own. It's not just a matter of trying to save people time, it's a matter of letting people get the best user experience for them. It's not a matter of lessening the amount of people asking for help, but it's a matter of wanting them to learn.
Sometimes saving people time and effort isn't the best idea if it just gives them problems later they can't figure out on their own.
Sorry for the lengthy reply. Just my 100 pesos. Lol.
I don't mean any offense or whatever to anyone, okay? I love helping people when I have time and I just think helping people help themselves is the best. You know like..give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime..that kinda stuff.
I hope my post came off as logical and with all due respect.
Peace~
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1, i agree with you.

g00ndu said:
@anoneemooz,
Just a hypothetical question, if it happens that Samsung release a froyo rom (2.2 only) and it comes with your native language locale with Swype as well would you still be in the latest rom, or would you stick to the rom with those features?
Not trying to flame, but would like an honest opinion about this.
Maraming salamat sa inyo!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As English language is a working language in India, most of the users would prefer a phone with English as default. There would be some who use Hindi also. But they wouldn't miss Hindi on their phone.

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
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I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
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I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
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Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
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Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us