Related
Ok So whats this new level of idiocy, are we now trully saying that one can not ask a question that involkes opinions and subjective answers, the threads could contain factual information and objective opinions but i guess we shall never know beacuse they get closed...
I am actually supprised its got this low, if you think about it almost any question answered will be subjected to an opinional bias WE ARE HUMANS
So the two "Which ROM?" questions threads get closed i think we are all big enough to realise that what one person feels is good may not be to another but we all read reviews in mags, we all read reviews on the internet and they suffer the same problems with bias you cant remove that fact, you read the responces and judge for your self, blimey what is going on here!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=489979&page=2
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=490053
There are a ton of new ROMs out there now and it is impossible to get a "feel" of the way they perform unless you spend all of your time flashing ROMs. Constructive discussion of ROMs and their strong and weak points shouldn't be cause for public shame.
[URL=http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=canofwormsy.jpg]
[/URL]
or...
A: "Dutty's ROMs are the best!"
B: "F*** off, David's the best."
C: "You two know f*** all about ROMs; Neo's the best!"
--ad infinitum
Matterhorn said:
There are a ton of new ROMs out there now and it is impossible to get a "feel" of the way they perform unless you spend all of your time flashing ROMs. Constructive discussion of ROMs and their strong and weak points shouldn't be cause for public shame.
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Agreed, not everyone has the time, patience, ability, confidence to be flashing rom after rom, especially someone new to flashing. And for any user coming to these forums there is a bewildering amount of different roms and information. No one is asking for a be all and end all answer, but to get some opinions for a starting point can be very useful and inspire a bit of confidence to actually get going.
As long as constructive opinions are given, I personally don't see anything wrong in this. An answer as to why someone uses a rom for a particular reason may be the exact criteria that another person is looking for and might save that person a LOT of time and effort trying many roms first just to end up at that same rom.
The threads dazza mentioned I thought were being dealt with very constructively with some good advice in there. No one wants any flame war or anyone just being competitive with their chosen rom but please lets have some perspective, and credit most people with some intelligence and let some constructive discussion be allowed.
TraumaX said:
As long as constructive opinions are given, I personally don't see anything wrong in this. An answer as to why someone uses a rom for a particular reason may be the exact criteria that another person is looking for and might save that person a LOT of time and effort trying many roms first just to end up at that same rom.
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Totally agree. What harm can come from contructive opinions. This may save a person numerous flashes and time. Where is the harm in that?
It saved me time when I first joined and flashed my first ROM!!
Indeed, ill not flash a ROM unless ive had a good read about others views, its my choice to listen to them or not, theres just simply too many ROMS and versions of ROMs to not allow this constructive debate.
Blackstone users have not invented the habit to ask about which ROM is the best, which to use, etc.
Threads like these get closed because very simple reasons: the discussions in the respective threads are based solely on subjective opinions and experiences.
Every ROM has description in the ROM thread and plenty of feedback inside. What might suit me would most probably not suit you. It all comes down to users' needs and what and how they use their devices. ROM expectations are based on these. Thus, asking questions about ROMs would normally generate answer pointing in a direction other users might find wrong.
All ROMs are public, with their description and feedback inside. Nobody stops users from testing and trying ROMs, according to their tasted and expectations.
I was the one closing those threads and will continue closing similar threads.
In case you have objections, complain to site Admin regarding this issue and do not throw your anger at the XDA community which supports us all.
Moving this thread to General as it has nothing to do with ROM developent!
tnyynt said:
In case you have objections, complain to site Admin regarding this issue and do not throw your anger at the XDA community which supports us all.
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With respect, I don't see any anger here towards XDA, just opinions again. I don't think anyone is suggesting people shouldn't read and do some research, of course they should, but there are a lot of roms, some with hundreds of pages of feedback, and it can be pretty daunting. To be sure, there is a lot of help within each of threads for the individual roms but to get some perspective and comparison of them from those who have already tried many of them with some (subjective) opinions can be extremely helpful in my view.
With respect, its not feasable to test every single ROM to get a feel for them all before maknig a choice, you dont buy a car by trying out every single car on the road, you read reviews which are ALL subjective and opinionated and then rate those experiences to your needs, that limits your choices which then allows you to try it out,
everyone knows that an opinion is just that, its a user opinion, its a view of that individual. To stop all subjective / opinionated remarks would effectively shut down the website.
For instance a thread on the Touch HDs camera speed would be factual in the sence that everyone knows its crap with moving pictures, but the thread would always be subjective since other users will notice this more, you cant stop that trate in humans its in our nature, so long as the comments are not designed to personally attack anothers view the thread will live an die on its on accord with out the need to moderate them.
With regards to why i published this, it is in the communities intrest to know what they can and cant do, im not attacking you personally for closing them, just the "rules" behind the decision. but if we are not able to keep this thread civil and it gets closed then yes ill pass on my comments to the admin instead.
We are all (mostly) adults on here lets not bring the nanny state here as well.
I can add my 5 cents here.... this is a well known problem, in every forum.
You can open a thread asking "What ROM are you using and WHY?" and IMHO this could be interesting, but asking " ROM Ratings...Your Opinions" or worst " What ROM is the best for me?" are tricky questions, because RATING and OPINIONS doesn't fit well together in the first case and BEST FOR you? ...who knows is the first answer I have in mind
This doesn't seems to have high relevance but those threads could be, on the dark side, "Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs)", starting a flame war against or pro single chefs.
Are "dangerous" threads, a thread, may be with a poll, "What rom are you using and WHY" could be dangerous but interesting and will survive ONLY if users are responsible and avoid a flame war
Thanks, 5 cents donated
As tynnyt said "this is not a blackstone problem".
This issue was discussed to death here : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466666
Thanks
Dave
i don't have time to test each rom and for each of them to test every aspects in order to have my own conclusion.
as many others from here, would very intersted in the answer wich rom is best, but i am old enough (you would be surprised) to know that there is no answer to that question. from different reasons, pointed enough around here
what i want to suggest is a different approach, ofcourse if mods and admins will find that useful
instead in statement like x rom is better than y rom, or z rom rules, maybe guys who use or test different roms can give a feedback to others, with little experience, time or dare, concerning few aspects of the rom
for instance:
user noris08 (me) uses frank's rom v.1.5.12345. i would qualify that like that:
- glamurous looking
- moderate usability
- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)
- not so good speed
- extremely good for memory management (75% free)
- fix following known issues:
1. fix stutters in audio playing
2. add hardware acceleration for coreplayer
3. 3G signal always on 5 bars
4. gps fix in 5 sec
4. so on
- noticed bugs:
1. alarm clock doesn't work in stand by
2. appoinments shown with 2 hours delay
3. so on
- i would recomend it for mutimedia users
- i would rate it 7/10
it is likely that will be only a few guys with big harts to post their impressions, but is more then nothing.
in this way maybe we will not hurt rom developers feelings by just comparing x rom with y rom. they will also have some feed back concerning their work, appart of "thanks and great job mate"
just a thought!
cheers to everybody!
I agree 100% with the above post.
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
we're all big and old enough to know the difference, i think its quite disrespectful to ban such questions for several reasons, but something that is quite relevent is language.
English isnt everyones native language, gramatically speaking it might read to us as "which is the best ROM ever" but that might not be what they ment.
but whatever, seems minds are made and common sence has taken another knock back at the expence of so called politcal correctness, in this case offending the egos of the cookers out strips the need for new inexperienced users wanting simple feedback from the community about something without having to drudge through 1000s of pages of posts and spending much of there free time trying out every last ROM out there.
Just seems crazy if you ask me.
tnyynt said:
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
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I agree, this would be a good thread to start, i.e. benchmarking the ROMs procedure, software used, etc
tnyynt said:
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
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but using your logic, is it factual?
"- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)"
hell i have that ROM and its only lasting 10 days, instantly it becomes opinionated and subjectional
ok thats an extreme example, but even with a very well laid out feedback such as that people will disagree, you have to either ban them all or let adults use their own common sence.
I would like to say add guide lines for "which ROM" requests but another human trait is that they wont read them either.
dazza9075 said:
but using your logic, is it factual?
"- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)"
hell i have that ROM and its only lasting 10 days, instantly it becomes opinionated and subjectional
ok thats an extreme example, but even with a very well laid out feedback such as that people will disagree, you have to either ban them all or let adults use their own common sence.
I would like to say add guide lines for which ROM requests but another human trait is that they wont read them in the first place.
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Wasn't talking about battery (but even that could be reported as Radio + ROM + usage) but about using the same benchmark tool that needs to run in the same circumstances (i.e: after hard reset, manila disabled, etc.), about reporting memory usage after start up and after a day's usage, reporting bugs, etc.
I.E.:
SKTools benchmark:
X
X
X
X
Battery:
5 days with
A Radio
B Rom
X calls/day, X minutes of wifi, X no. of messages
Memory after startup:
X used
Storage memory after hard reset:
X used
Startup time:
X seconds from vibrate till stable today screen
etc.
id agree, a simple standardised benchmark runing a number of tests over a few hours would give a good account without the opinions, any suggestions?
dazza9075 said:
id agree, a simple standardised benchmark runing a number of tests over a few hours would give a good account without the opinions, any suggestions?
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You Guys find a way out and ellaborate the procedure that'd help you most. I gave you some hints. I'll support that, and I believe so will my fellow MOD colleagues.
Okay firstly this is what jaxouk wrote:
I have read many posts where people are asking which is the best rom for my device (and have done myself) only to get abrupt replies with something like "how dare you ask this, chefs put a lot of effort into each rom and its down to personal preferance blah blah" ................"THREAD CLOSED"
Does every one think think this is the best way for xda to be run or is there other people that think this should be allowed to be debated? I know this is originally a developer forum, however I would hazard a guess that there is now more public users that devolpers.
The thing is developers develope roms and yes certainly they put a lot of time and effort into it and are respected rightly so for it. however can the end user really be expected not to be allowed to discuss these roms on the forum only to be told the above mensioned things. It happens time and again over and over. People like myself (the end user) do not have time to flash every rom to find the ones they like. (its a days setting up for myself after a flash) and if its crap (which there is no denying. some are) its a day wasted.
What I think the forum needs is a "ROM USER REVIEW" section where people like myself can go and rate a rom for other users referance.
Surely this is the key to better roms. If one developers rom is poor hes going to be able to see that its poor and will/might take the user rating / comments on board and the next time try harder.... ultimately producing a better rom.
Competition is what makes better products, If handset manufacturers took the same stance as xda we would be waiting for the realease of the o2 xda 2s later this year. and this is the same in all industries.
Okay so firstly Spot on and totally agree with you which as we all can see the majority of members using XDA agree with too.
Secondly this is what itje wrote who is a Moderator here:
I closed this thread, due to the same reason all the others that are similar all over xda are closed on sight.
These kind of threads usualy/always ends up in disputes and flamewars, there is always some hotheaded ppl who burst into flames when someone dont have the same view as they do.
So... sorry, yeah we close
So basically what you are saying is we as members are not allowed to treat XDA as a discussion forum as well as a Developer Forum? I thought the whole meaning to the word Forum, was for people to discuss there DIFFERENT opinions and have certain disputes with one another.
Sorry if people dont agree with this and please tell me why but I just think its silly that a mod would close a thread incase someone shouts and god forbid have an opinion.
Let me know what you guys think
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
I wasnt telling anyone how to run THIS forum I was basically explaining to everyone how a forum is normally run, if this is the way everyone likes it then fine but looking through 100's of posts and topics around here all I see is members and "noobs" getting put down from the likes of you.
crazy cat said:
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
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me no understand
This has been explained again and again.
Personal and objective opinions are not allowed here. So if you can't make your own judgement on which ROM's to use you might want to stick to the stock ROM. Or The best thing to do is setup your own personal blog for these types of things. Then you can say what you want.
This will be another thread closed soon i feel.
It's impossible to determine what 'the best rom' would be...
Some ppl love a transparent clock, others hate it.
Same with the slider bar.
Same with themes.
Some ppl love a windows build with the start button on the top, some ppl love it with the button on the bottom.
Some ppl love to have a crapload of apps installed, some ppl hate it.
Some ppl love to have the newest unstable build, some ppl want the secure and stable one.
I might love a rom and you might hate it, the only objective criteria is how stable a rom is but even that can be debated. So you just have to try, see what works for you and go from there.
thread closed (i wish)
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
noris08 said:
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
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Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread. The truth be known many of the problems users face are due to them not following instruction or due to some other incompatible software there are trying to use and then they blame their problems on the ROM creator. The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
I understand what people want and this is why I made the statement to open your own blog or site to do these things and then link to here.
i have to agree. cooker cooks a rom and we rate it. if it was just "cook, post, upload, thread closed" in res of the world then everyone would buy apple, but cause its the information age we need to know what is what and where is where.
this should be even more seen here on "professional" forum like xda-developers.
i totaly agree with OP.
@bazgee: saying that 'noobs' shouldnt talk.. makes you so much more a 'noob'. your ass wasn't born smart and so wasn't OPs.
bobsbbq said:
Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread.
....
The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
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This is what forums are for!! To ASK, and to ANSWER!!
Edit; I'm not going to say something, post removed.
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
Developers Forum?
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway. The end users play a massive role in here, determining bugs, requesting new features or feature removal and indeed critiquing the ROM within its own thread.
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
I'm sure it is more to do with protecting the ROM developers so that the ones who's ROMs may be bottom of the pile don't walk away, which is fair enough.
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
The moderators don't 'need' to do anything (We will all be here anyway) but if they have some respect then they should take on board and accomodate what appears to be the opinion of a vast number of users.
I'm sure there is some middle ground somewhere if we try and look ....
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
I'm not sure consolve vs PC is quite the same a comparing different ROMs as they have the same hardware, similar architecture, purpose etc Your also getting a little needlesly condescending now ;-)
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
mwillems2 said:
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
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How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
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Again, I'm trying to understand what are you on about, but I can't. What is constructive information according to you?
You have ROM description on the first page, you can check the last few if there are any issues with it. What else do you want?
[/QUOTE]
i agree what bobsbbq said ,is not fair to say that this rom is good and this rom is better but if you try the other rom is far more better,is dissrespectul from the chefs trying to help you guys having best rom's avialible and to open another thread to say things like that is bad,so for me i choose my own judgement and would not ask others wich rom is best,so this thread is closed
mwillems2 said:
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway.
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You're saying this like it is somehow an acceptable, or possibly even a good thing. It is not.
It's true that this forum is now visited by people who:
cannot be bothered to read the first post of any thread
have no intention of educating themselves, only blindly consuming
will shamelessly ***** and make demands about things they are getting for free
These people do not make the community "better" in any way, and this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated in my view.
mwillems2 said:
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
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Heated discussions in themselves do not need to escalate any further. They are already a waste of everybody's time, and have no place here.
mwillems2 said:
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
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I'm relatively sure the user who is seriously interested in testing and reporting is not in need of a completely seperate thread to voice their opinion on which ROM is somehow "best". For testers it's not constructive to voice opinions about a ROM in any other thread than the original ROM thread.
mwillems2 said:
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
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Not so sure about that. I've seen plenty of chefs say that they basically cook for themselves, and just like to share. Even if they are cooking for the community, they do not need people to praise or diss their ROM's in any other thread than their own.
Overall, I feel the biggest problem with having a centralized ROM discussion thread is the intented audience: people who cannot be bothered to test and compare by themselves, people who cannot be bothered to read individual ROM threads.
What would be the point in creating a new thread for these people? Once it gets beyond 1 page, they will not bothered to read it anyway.
for me personally these "top 20s" don't have any value whatsoever but i understand why so many people want them. some of them are just lazy and want to avoid to read the threads, others are not able to think for themselves and need to be told what is good or bad for them and there are those who want to become famous reviewers.
for cryin' out loud, don't fix what is not broken! this forum is perfect as it is. moderators, don't let the comorades tell you what to do!
Volw said:
How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
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I think is better we not make comparative, believe it is better for all!!
but if you say it is impossible to compare among themselves the Rom, you're wrong!
lol reopened.
anyway i belive this huld be discussed. we are here three levels of people. so this will need for 1st level, and 2nd level will be trying the roms and giving feed backs. so 3rd level always will be cooking and editing roms. just my opinion.
lets start the work.. i go for duttys HG V.08
The title of the thread is just to get all you fine people steaming in here to tell me off. But now your here by your own free will...
I've been a long time browser of these forums and recently a more active member. I used to be a very amateur coder when I was yonger and know to a small extent the hard work you guys put into these roms, so seriously to everyone congratulations on some amazing efforts.
I did want to address the reason topic titles such as the one I chose here crop up however. When I had a diamond before my HD2 there were just a few good roms to choose from and I soon settled down and chose one after trying them out. A few months back I started this same process with my HD2 but found every ROM I flashed to have a few bugs which annoyed me in day to day use, and I eventually went back to stock. Since then I havn't really tried again.
Today I have again been looking at perhaps flashing to a cooked ROM and in the beginning of these efforts I tried out the search term "best HD2 ROM". The threads that resulted were obviously very short and the authors told off for being lazy and discrediting the great works of all the chefs here. But the very good point is made that there are ALOT of ROM's for the HD2, and whilst it may only take 5 mnins to flash a ROM it takes hours, if not days, to find out if it suited to you. With the risk of losing personal info on each flash and having to reconfigure your apps each time this can be a very tedious process.
I'm basically wondering if there is any way to have a thread that can provide a way of rating the advantages and disadvantages of each ROM without having to wade through topics with hundreds of pages of mostly useless posts. It just so daunting with all these ROM's that many people may never even start.
I am just now thinking of flexing my (somewhat out of date) webmastering ability to create a "ROM Review" website - good idea?
What are people's thoughts?
p.s. This is probably also in the wrong section of the forum... just clicked "new topic" where I was browsing without thinking where it should go, please move if appropriate, thanks.
I completely agree with your idea to open this thread.
Finally we have someone who wants to put it to rights. Because every day we have new ROM or several ROM's, and every time flashing and soft re-installation takes a lot of time... and after all that you understand that "this ROM is not really what you wanted to be"...
Go on with your idea.. and I think - this section is the right place for your thread.
you got my vote
Good to see I'm not alone here, any feedback is much appriciated, even if its just a +1
Agreed, Sir.
This was taken from another thread about a similar question
"I also see no point to a list of pro's or cons of any particular ROM as most are built for the same thing, speed and stability. The only real differences you are going to see are what programs the person has loaded."
If this is indeed the case. then a list of the roms with the space taken up by the rom on the phone. the apps installed and how quick, stable each one would be must surely be a good idea?
I truly hope you can follow through with your idea.
I think there is no such thing as "the" best ROM.
Each user has different preferences, especially WinMo smartphones are
rarely one the same like another: Included software, tweaks, mods, themes, designs.
The possibilities are endless.
Also, an earlier thread here at the HD2 forum about speed (with benchmarks
as neutral as possible) ended up in unfriendly discussions (which is a mild
term to describe what happened).
An HD2 is so extremely fast that I seriously doubt that the "average" user
can tell a big difference between different ROMs. Sometimes, a buggy ROM
may be obviously slower, but in the average case, the difference will just
not really be felt, but only perceived, sometimes only imagined.
I think that it is part of this forum that there is no rating of the available
ROMs. If you watch the forum, you can easily find out which ROMs seem to
have more acceptance and therefore more fans - and if you check the ROM
description and screenshots of the chef, you can easily find out if the ROM
is something you might like.
Just to finish: How exactly does a ROM qualify as "the best"? Speed? Come
on... Software which comes with it? Come on, again...
Imho, it all ends up in optical mods and tweaks plus some extremely basic
software which is really a must for everybody. If you would ask me what
this could be, I cannot give you any name because WinMo and Manila are
on most ROMs anyway...
I couldn't agree more Mega. Very brave of you to start this thread ; )
I was a bit of a flashaholic with both my Elf and my Raphael, but I still haven't flashed anything to my Leo because it's so hard to figure out exactly what I'm going to get. Apart from the features of each ROM, it's hard to get an idea of the things that might be missing from each. Like, have the original bugs been fixed? Stuff like the audio booster turning off, AAC files being mis-sorted in the audio player, volume keys still active when the screen is off and incremental volume control or even the relative volume between headphones and phone speaker. I just can't be bothered to start flashing a million ROMs to find out. That's not laziness by the way, honest! I'm sure I'll get over it and start flashing soon ; )
tictac0566 said:
I think there is no such thing as "the" best ROM.
Each user has different preferences, especially WinMo smartphones are
rarely one the same like another: Included software, tweaks, mods, themes, designs.
The possibilities are endless.
Also, an earlier thread here at the HD2 forum about speed (with benchmarks
as neutral as possible) ended up in unfriendly discussions (which is a mild
term to describe what happened).
An HD2 is so extremely fast that I seriously doubt that the "average" user
can tell a big difference between different ROMs. Sometimes, a buggy ROM
may be obviously slower, but in the average case, the difference will just
not really be felt, but only perceived, sometimes only imagined.
I think that it is part of this forum that there is no rating of the available
ROMs. If you watch the forum, you can easily find out which ROMs seem to
have more acceptance and therefore more fans - and if you check the ROM
description and screenshots of the chef, you can easily find out if the ROM
is something you might like.
Just to finish: How exactly does a ROM qualify as "the best"? Speed? Come
on... Software which comes with it? Come on, again...
Imho, it all ends up in optical mods and tweaks plus some extremely basic
software which is really a must for everybody. If you would ask me what
this could be, I cannot give you any name because WinMo and Manila are
on most ROMs anyway...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, how would one rate the BEST? Well to be honest you cant really as each person has there own needs and wants in a rom. What might be an Ideal rom for me might not be the best rom for you. I could rate a rom at 10 and you might give it a 2, then it turns into a bashing session and that can not be allowed. The rating system has been brought up many times before and each time it comes to the same end. There will never be an accurate way to tell the best rom. I am not trying to be harsh here but threads like this are beating a dead horse.
After speaking with the OP I have decided to reopen this thread. On the condition that this is "NOT" a best rom thread. This thread will be to help those that are new to ROM flashing. I will be keeping an eye on this thread and if it turn into a Best rom or bashing thread I will reclose it for good. I understand that sense the release of the HD 2 that alot of people are new to WM and with the available options in the rom thread it can be confusing. I am also moving this thread to the General Section as it is not Rom development. To all the new guys welcome.
Just wanna say thanks to Zelendal, the topic title originally wasn't constructive.
As we all know from doing a little reading about the ROM's, each one can be individually suited to different people, it like argument about which is the best smart phone or computer platform. So the kind of discussionj I was trying to provoke was about the best way to help out newcomers decide which ROM would indeed be best suited to them.
As I posted before I have been pondering making a seperate website that would allow some organisation of peoples opinions on the ROM's and I am interested as to how much support there would be amongst the community, I am also interested as to how the Cook's themselves would see such an project, providing it was done right.
sike222 said:
This was taken from another thread about a similar question
"I also see no point to a list of pro's or cons of any particular ROM as most are built for the same thing, speed and stability. The only real differences you are going to see are what programs the person has loaded."
If this is indeed the case. then a list of the roms with the space taken up by the rom on the phone. the apps installed and how quick, stable each one would be must surely be a good idea?
I truly hope you can follow through with your idea.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You quote me but you leave out an important part. The problem with making a list is that ROMs change. What might have been an issue in one build might be working just fine in the next. Keeping up with these changes and trying to keep on top of a list would be a nightmare. Also this mystical list you are looking for is usually on one of the first few post of every ROM thread. Most good cooks will list all these things that you are looking for. Only way to tell if a ROM will fit your needs is to try it. Every bodies idea of a good ROM is different. What one person might see as a con another sees as a pro. Personal opinion is a ***** and unfortunately everybody has a different one.
Good luck but I don't see a list being started or maintained for very long. Nor do I see this thread going anywhere productive.
Will Badger -
I don't think anyone is dis-agreeing that each ROM is suited individually to different people. Each cook makes his ROM how he wants it and if you share those wants with that cook you a likly to enjoy his ROM. That doesn't make it any easier to find what ROM is indeed suited to you, and as a newbe it can be extremely daunting, there are 30 odd cooks for the HD2, thats ALOT of time spent flashing and tring out ROM's.
Having said that I have been pointed towards
http://www.xdaroms.com/Default.aspx
Which is more or less everything I had in mind for a ROM information site, so its safe to say I wont be needing to build another. Iv'e been on this forum for a few months now and have not seen this site, somthing like this would need the direct support of Cooks asking people to visit in their ROM threads to submit reviews of their ROM.
Personally if that could happen I think it would be great and a fantastic resourse for newbes but I know there are alot of differing opinions on here, and perhaps its somthing the chefs would have second thoughts about.
Cool nice to know you found what you were looking for. I still find it easier to just read the actual thread for the info I'm looking for. Going over that page quickly I see no information stating whether the any of the HD2 ROMs are T-mobile compatible. You can flash a standard HD2 ROM onto the newer T-Mo HD2 since they use different processor.
i hadn't come across that site either, lol... but looking at this thread i think the guy's pretty keen to make the site useful. see here - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=658641
there's also another thread in the ROM section that might be helpful... i'm sure jaimeeee would appreciate any input and help you wanna give
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=683743
Hi,
Thanks for the extra info, whilst the site I posted does seem to be more or less what I was thinking of doing myself it simply doesnt have the activity require to truely make it useful to anyone. It needs the support of the Forum, especially the Cooks if its going to succeed. I keep meaning to conatct the owner of th site to discuss how to push traffic onto the site but I got all caught up making a skin recently.
Hopefully we can make somthing of this!
I posted in an earlier thread that I was getting worried that there is so much noise in the Evo development section that high quality ROMs by dedicated programmers were getting lost in the fracas of those that feel slapping a new wallpaper on a ROM qualified as its own distribution.
I was thinking that the best solution would be to see if the community would be interested in a way to uprank and downrank distributions in a one stop gateway that would help everyone clearly see which ROMs are the brightest and the best.
To that effect, I've created a Google Moderator series that lists ROMs. You can put a checkbox next to the ones you support, and an X if there is one (or some) in particular that you had some bad mojo with. If one you love isn't there, you're more than free to add it yourself to get the voting going!
The best part is, you can change your votes at any time!
http://bit.ly/aaZbOD
This may work, this may suck. Time will tell if this can become at all useful
If you dig this idea, please bump it for awareness. Otherwise, we can let it disappear.
No harm, no foul
We've had 15 people contribute so far. The more we get, the more comprehensive the data!
I'll bump this. Before I used to check the thread rating and whichever ROM thread had the best rating, I would go in and test it out. This could help out.
This'll definitely help in deciding a ROM to flash. Bump.
Sure I'll support this...
NOTE: please don't use this list as a bible...once we start rooting phones, they can tend to have a mind of their own. Some roms run great on some phones but are unstable on others. Same goes for kernels and themes. Remember, YMMV.
Great Idea.
jd9900 said:
Sure I'll support this...
NOTE: please don't use this list as a bible...once we start rooting phones, they can tend to have a mind of their own. Some roms run great on some phones but are unstable on others. Same goes for kernels and themes. Remember, YMMV.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. Hopefully the whole "wisdom of the crowds" thing can at least push people in the right direction.
You all owe it to yourself and your phone to read the threads associated with these ROMs before flashing though!
I removed two added suggestions that did not follow the style of the vote. Please add roms not "MORE ROMS PLZ"
Awesome idea. Will vote.
Sticky this. I think it would clear up alot of questions too. Id say combine this idea with the release matrix from androidspin.com would be great.
for reference to what im talking about
http://db.androidspin.com/androidsp...id_build_base_os=&android_developer_id=&go=go
bump
this will be good for those rooting from froyo
sent from my baby. . . the evo 4-gees
I think that it's a great idea to add some sorting/ratings/details about all the roms out there, to anyone that hasn't been on these forums a while I'd assume it's quite overwhelming.
I'm not sure what the best idea is, as voting in a thumbs up/down fashion might not be the greatest way to show evaluation, I'm sure a lot of people with negatives are gonna be the ones with bugs or couldn't get it to work right.
In the end, I think rom reviews would be ideal, if we could get someone to do them. I remember shopping for a Nintendo DS cart, if anyone is familiar with them, and I found a website that had frequently updated reviews of the different available cartridges from the various teams that made them, and even though everyone knew the R4 brand cartridge I was able to get a good feel for the developers and features I was choosing from and I chose another brand that I was quite happy with.
I think voting makes it a popularity vs people with bugs/problems contest, more detailed voting (stars/categories) would end up being too tedious for most, and the spreadsheets, tho useful, don't really tell you everything you need to know.
Reviewers can also make the community more aware of who is making our kernels, the differences between them, available themes, battery life comparisons, etc.
We just need to find some people that swap roms enough and would be willing to do the write ups...
i think it will become a popularity contest which is part of the point, but the problem i see is that there are many die hard fans of this rom or that rom and i have no doubt they will negatively rate other roms just to try to move there fav rom up the list whether or not they used the rom, was something wrong with it, or not.
I think any type of ranking system is more hurtful then helpful. If you are a dev for a rom that isnt as popular or is new you may show at the bottom of the list even though your rom is bug free stable and fast. If people use this list as a true reference they will see your rom at the bottom or not on it at all and assume your rom isnt very good this could be very discouraging to the devs that even though they work hard and have a very solid rom they may not get many users and may be considered a "bad" rom since they haven't been around as long or arent one of the big 4-5 that people frequently use.
just my take on it. i like the review idea of the above user that along with nief's rom comparison that actually compares performance and battery life i think is the most helpful personally giving every rom its fair chance. it also takes popularity out of it to some degree and gives newer roms a fair chance vs coming in down 1000 votes.
I agree but people certainly do gravitate toward quality.
I took a lot of time to think about what the best way of doing this would be, and Moderator seems to be the best idea:
1. Reviews get outdated with each iteration. What you cite as problems now, can be fixed tomorrow.
2. The benchmarking idea is also bad since each phone is different. My phone pegged in the high 40s on old Linpack on most ROMs where others were seeing mid thirties. Again, outdated is an issue.
3. A poll on the site doesn't allow for other ROMs to be added easily
4. You can always change your mind.
Unfortunately, since the question is "what is everyone's favorite ROMs" is technically a popularity question, a popularity contest is what it is.
shameless TTT
Bump! Sticky?
Bump for fantastic happy goodness.
If this would have saved us from the inevitable 400 other threads started each week asking, "which ROM should I flash?", I think it could have been a great idea!
You have my vote I support it.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
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Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us