Database Users

It could be worse, you might have an iPhone

Here is a list of features for the iPhone,
* The mobile version of OS X or whatever it is the iPhone runs takes up 700MB
* There's no way to cut, copy, or paste text!
* No A2DP support.
* Sorry, music can't be used as a ringtone
* On a PC the iPhone syncs with Outlook for calendars AND addresses
* It supports Exchange 'in some capacity'
* Document file reading -- but not editing -- for PDF, Word, and Excel (only).
* Adobe Flash support is officially out. It's just not in the browser.
* No kind of embedded video support.
* It will take snaps, but won't record video.
* Oh, and no MMS.
* No voice dialing, either.
* Contact groups can't be emailed as contact lists.
* Apple says between 300-400 charges the iPhone will lose battery capacity -- you'll send it in and get the cell replaced for a fee.
* Apple will be rolling out periodic updates
* Voice quality is said to be good -- not great.
Aren't you glad you bought an Athena not an iPhone?
I look forward to laughing at iPhone owners. Now I have nothing against apple, but this thing costs a bomb and has half the features.
Athena owner meets iPhone owner,
"hey, thats a pretty phone. Can you do blah with it?"
"No the iPhone wont do blah. Ooh, thats a huge 5"screen you've got, wow! I wish my iPhone could do that! AND that, and that! Hold on, battery is dead. No I cant replace it, no spare. I have to post it back to apple now."

I think you might have missed out:
"Wow a touchflow screen - shame the resolution is so low....."

It could be worse
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Absolutely. And it would be hard to make the Athena better...
Of course, there's always something that could have been better, but compared to other phones or the iPhone, the Athena is miles ahead.

Moskus said:
Absolutely. And it would be hard to make the Athena better...
Of course, there's always something that could have been better, but compared to other phones or the iPhone, the Athena is miles ahead.
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Click to collapse
And only twice as expensive, too...
Give the Athena OS and hardware the sort of R&D Apple put into making their stuff work - but instead of cutting back on what it does, make it ALL work properly

Its an interesting first attempt, but they've got a fair way to go before it becomes a 'smart' device, rather than just a sexy phone. No 3G, unable to update OTA from Itunes, a fairly 'closed' platform (until people defeat that ) puts me off this 1st generation phone. I read today of rumors that 3G will be fixed for the European Release (via Yodafone), but the extended contract lifetimes with Mobile providers is very offputting.
I'm gonna wait till gen2 or even gen3 to see if the phone becomes 'smart' enough to warrant the screen size and how it pans out with the apple-chefs or the true apple upgrades. And I've never bought into the apple form over function that they've adopted since imac days.

Im afraid a stylish device with eye candy transition effects, just doesn't justify the large costs, restrictions and appaling array of non supported features for me.
I blame Microsoft and the manufactuers who make windows Mobile devices for their distinct lack of advertising, the cost of which is an array of people happy to call this the "god phone" despite much better and affordable and vastly less restricted technology being out there. With the exception of its multitouch interface its comparatively using the technology specs of a Windows 2003SE device.
To Apples credit though millions of people getting ready to sign up for two years to get one of these and tolerate an "activation fee" so I don't know what category to give them the thumbs up in, but they have obviously done something right.
Although I am still shocked that such a media driven device lacks the capacity to set mp3 ringtones, that should be on the top of apples first update to fix.

I think us geeks tend to forget that most people don't care of what is going on behind the eye candy. They want to use a stylish and easy-to-use phone.
For instance, go and show your parents, or any people in their forties-fifties who are not technology freaks, the iPhone and a Windows Mobile device, let them "play" with it for their use (i.e., place and receive calls, and maybe some SMS), and in the end ask them to choose one of the devices. I can already guess their choice....
In my opinion most of use are too much technology-centered, and find it hard to believe that Apple tries to center the device on its users...
Why did the first iPod have such a great success, when many competitors offered a screen for viewing videos, an FM tuner and voice recording for a lesser price?
Just my two cents (and anyway this is an eternal debate, so please don't start the usual flame war )
Silviu

RichardKAthena said:
And only twice as expensive, too...
Give the Athena OS and hardware the sort of R&D Apple put into making their stuff work - but instead of cutting back on what it does, make it ALL work properly
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Click to collapse
Yes it's twice as expensive, but you should compare the iPhone to the HTC Hermes or the new HTC Kaiser.
Does iPhone support UMTS/HSDPA? Nope
Does iPhone support Exchange/Push Email? Nope
Does iPhone support any Remote Desktop apps? Nope
Does iPhone support user-created apps? Nope
Does iPhone support any 3. party software at all? Nope (at least not yet)
Can I then even use this phone? Nope...

Moskus said:
Yes it's twice as expensive, but you should compare the iPhone to the HTC Hermes or the new HTC Kaiser.
Does iPhone support UMTS/HSDPA? Nope
Does iPhone support Exchange/Push Email? Nope
Does iPhone support any Remote Desktop apps? Nope
Does iPhone support user-created apps? Nope
Does iPhone support any 3. party software at all? Nope (at least not yet)
Can I then even use this phone? Nope...
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Click to collapse
So, in fact, you want a mobile computer, not a mobile telephone
There's a very big clue in the name - iPhone. phone. Not iReallytinycomputerthatevenpeoplethatdon'tlikeAppleseemobsessedwithbecausedeepdowntheyknowApple'scomputershavethebestuserexperienceandtheyallwantitinapocketsizeddevice.
Sure, Apple could make a device like the Athena. And like the Athena, it would cost more than a MacBook, and like most UMPCs, it would sell in tiny amounts compared to the easy to engineer, wide-market appeal MacBook.

RichardKAthena said:
So, in fact, you want a mobile computer, not a mobile telephone
There's a very big clue in the name - iPhone. phone. Not iReallytinycomputerthatevenpeoplethatdon'tlikeAppleseemobsessedwithbecausedeepdowntheyknowApple'scomputershavethebestuserexperienceandtheyallwantitinapocketsizeddevice.
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Click to collapse
Well I get along with my other devices as the Qtek 9100, HTC TyTN, S620 and MTeoR.
The Pocket PCs support most of the points I specified, and the smartphones does at least support Push Email and 3. party software.
So, to me and I guess other users that likes how Smartphones powered by either Windows Mobile or Symbian, the iPhone won't do it. If you're a "standard users" that actually like those "simple" phones from Nokia or Sony Ericsson, the iPhone might suit you.

Digital.Diablo said:
Its an interesting first attempt, but they've got a fair way to go before it becomes a 'smart' device, rather than just a sexy phone. No 3G, unable to update OTA from Itunes, a fairly 'closed' platform (until people defeat that ) puts me off this 1st generation phone. I read today of rumors that 3G will be fixed for the European Release (via Yodafone), but the extended contract lifetimes with Mobile providers is very offputting.
I'm gonna wait till gen2 or even gen3 to see if the phone becomes 'smart' enough to warrant the screen size and how it pans out with the apple-chefs or the true apple upgrades. And I've never bought into the apple form over function that they've adopted since imac days.
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Click to collapse
Apple stuff never gets good until third generation.
Apple II - 4K-16K typical, upper case only.
Apple II Plus - 48K, shift-key mod...
Apple //e - lower case, better keyboard, 128K with extended 80 column card.
Macintosh - 128K RAM, 400K floppy - essentially useless.
Macintosh 512K/e - 400 or 800K floppy, still not upgradeable at all.
Macintosh Plus - 1-4Mb via SIMM expansion, 800K Floppy, SCSI.
iMac - first gen, I'd argue, was the 233MHz Bondi range. Unreliable and slow.
Then we got the SE types and colours. They were better.
And then I consider the eMac to be the true 3rd gen iMac - G4, flat CRT - and they were pretty good. I used one as my main office machine for a couple of years, but I've now got a 24" Intel iMac which is near silent and has a beautiful screen for the money. (My G5 runs dual 20" cinema displays).
iPod has been a little different, but I think the 3rd gen iPod got it right - I don't like the click wheel as much as the scroll wheel and 4 button layout. Harder to use in the car and not illuminated.
I really hope Vodafone don't get the iPhone deal. Their current data plans are useless.

Moskus said:
Well I get along with my other devices as the Qtek 9100, HTC TyTN, S620 and MTeoR.
The Pocket PCs support most of the points I specified, and the smartphones does at least support Push Email and 3. party software.
So, to me and I guess other users that likes how Smartphones powered by either Windows Mobile or Symbian, the iPhone won't do it. If you're a "standard users" that actually like those "simple" phones from Nokia or Sony Ericsson, the iPhone might suit you.
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Click to collapse
Bingo! That's precisely the market Jobs wants. This is "simple phone" with balls, not smartphone. This is "SE Walkman phone" with a UI that doesn't make you want to smash the handset and enough storage to actually hold some music out of the box.
Look at my signature. What do I use? I choose to use WM devices and have done for a decade; I was using smartphones whilst most of the people on here were still in nappies figuratively speaking (I used to use a lashup of datacard and Windows CE handheld, then the Nokia 9000 came out). I love these devices; my Ameo is nicknamed "The Guide" because it really is like the Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy - connected to the sub-ether net, access to all the information you can imagine, entertaining, communicative - it's a great device.
iPhone doesn't suit me. But I'm fully aware of the market that it is aiming for and I think that constantly harping on about how it isn't a good competitor to WM devices, or lacks x features, is really silly; if the iPhone doesn't do what you want, don't buy one, especially if an existing product does do what you want. It really does seem to be that everyone WANTS an iPhone, but can't justify it and feels the need to complain
Which for Apple, is fantastic. OMGWANT! is exactly what they want people to do with their products, and that people feel compelled to post about what it doesn't have and why it is no good for them is a clear indication that they really wish it DID do all these things, so they could have one.
I think I own about 100 computers currently and 5 or 6 phones. If I want iPhone I'll have one anyway, but since it's only got 8GB, it won't replace my 80GB iPod as a music player - it'd be a whole extra device with a frustrating inability to cart all my music, thus ensuring I have to choose some to keep on it, and with no reason to use it instead of my Ameo.
And that's just fine by me, because the Ameo, flawed as it is, is still pretty damn good.

I'm intrigued to see how the OMGIWO (Oh my Gawd, I want one) effect lasts with iphone. Initially when the pod launched, it had this effect, but these days, every joe and his mate's got one, so there's nothing interesting to see when you get it out in public.
However, I suspect my Ameo will be pulling the crowds for a couple of years to come! Only today did I have a fella asking me all about it, and when I went through the spec's he nearly wet himself. HTC/T-mobile can probably chalk up another sale!

Digital.Diablo said:
I'm intrigued to see how the OMGIWO (Oh my Gawd, I want one) effect lasts with iphone. Initially when the pod launched, it had this effect, but these days, every joe and his mate's got one, so there's nothing interesting to see when you get it out in public.
However, I suspect my Ameo will be pulling the crowds for a couple of years to come! Only today did I have a fella asking me all about it, and when I went through the spec's he nearly wet himself. HTC/T-mobile can probably chalk up another sale!
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Click to collapse
When I got my Ameo, I ended up with my girlfriend buying one, two mates getting them, and about four more wanting them but not having the cash/being stuck on contract.
iPods are still good, but they're a commodity device now. I replace mine every year as long as there is a significant/useful upgrade; I pass the old one on to someone, though my 20GB one needed a new battery (and was then killed by a third-party USB/Firewire charging lead that also blew the Firewire bus on my G5 >_<)
Phones always attract more attention as a lekking device (look it up ). iPhone will do well for that, I think, and the tactile user interface will go a long way.

RichardKAthena said:
lekking
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A lek is a gathering of males, of certain animal species, for the purposes of competitive mating display.
Sounds like Scottish version of what we say (In Jest) "Right, lets all get our c..ks out and start waving them around." Your's is more 'polite' though.
The one thing that the WM5 needs is better out of the box skins. I've installed a black one (ying/yang I think) from this forum and it pee's all over the out of the box ones from MicroT-Mobilesoft. I'm not buying into the hype I'm afraid. And I think there does need to be a better explanation of the iphone NOT being a PDA/smartphone, just a smart-looking phone. Just out of interest, am I correct in remembering that my Ex's pink ipod-mini had a basic personal organiser function - A calendar with reminders?

I agree with much of what has been said - the Ifyyphone is aimed at a different market. Therefore...
Moskus said:
Does iPhone support Exchange/Push Email? Nope
Does iPhone support any Remote Desktop apps? Nope
Does iPhone support user-created apps? Nope
Does iPhone support any 3. party software at all? Nope (at least not yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...these are all fine - an Iphoney doesn't care about these things
BUT
Moskus said:
Does iPhone support UMTS/HSDPA? Nope
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is unforgivable these days.

Digital.Diablo said:
A lek is a gathering of males, of certain animal species, for the purposes of competitive mating display.
Sounds like Scottish version of what we say (In Jest) "Right, lets all get our c..ks out and start waving them around." Your's is more 'polite' though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's true, though - you see how people are with their mobiles. Showing them around, having the latest models, the best features. Sometimes the most bizarre models get to be desirable - that unremarkable thing Panasonic/someone else sold that was the "Beckham Phone" for example. The Ameo is one HELL of a lekking device, but it suffers the same problem as my car does - gotta explain it. If I wanted to pull 'birds' as my normal peer group goes for (filthy goffick type here, I'm afraid), then the RX8 doesn't get a look in compared to a Focus ST, because the ST is loud, familiar and known to be quick. The RX8 has a bloody Wankel FFS. Sure, when someone gets in it and you boot it, there's this look of comprehension that kicks in, but on the road, it's a vaguely flash, odd sounding car.
Can't use it to pull if you have to get nerdy. Unless you like nerdy girls. In which case, well, my gf bought herself an Ameo after seeing mine. Says it all, I think
(also, oddly enough, she's in Birmingham. I'm going to have to listen out for that phrase now )
The one thing that the WM5 needs is better out of the box skins. I've installed a black one (ying/yang I think) from this forum and it pee's all over the out of the box ones from MicroT-Mobilesoft. I'm not buying into the hype I'm afraid. And I think there does need to be a better explanation of the iphone NOT being a PDA/smartphone, just a smart-looking phone. Just out of interest, am I correct in remembering that my Ex's pink ipod-mini had a basic personal organiser function - A calendar with reminders?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the messaging app (at least the one on the Ameo, as they're apparently different on other devices like the Treo 750w) needs a lot of work, and the preferences panels are horrid, they look like they were drawn in Visual Basic by an NC Computing Student. A bad one. But yes, better skins go a long way towards fixing the crude look and feel.
iPods-with-displays have address book and calendar synchronisation, no editing (I think, the key to the PDA paradigm), and of course read-only notes.

3G?
http://www.newswireless.net/index.cfm/article/3466

As someone who works in the school system here in the US, I've used many Apple products over the years. One thing all of the Apple devices have in common that I have used is that they are too restrictive. They are all closed systems. I want to make choices, not have them made for me. I'm not some simple idiot that can't make my own decisions. This is the main reason I won't be buying an iPhone. Frankly I'm not that happy with Windows either (it's heading too much in this direction as well). I prefer Linux and I would like to see it show up on more phones.
There are some really nice things about the iPhone, but as long as Apple keeps being restrictive, I won't be using their products.

Pyrofer
Actually I don't care what you think, I have all the different devices that I wish, so its just another " mobile experience". And you don't have base to judge that (only specs to compare)
For me it's better have an Iphone that a lot of Windows Mobile Devices (most of them are EQUAL) I'm saying that because I have both...
It's very sad limited people without curiosity and criteria to evaluate other platforms, It just like Linux (opensource) people that ignore Microsoft innovation products, just like You do with Apple.
Thanks god I have money to spend in shinny new gadgets...

What mobile OS is going to really thrive?

I'm a freshman at Purdue University studying computer science, and my interest pretty much lays in mobile devices and programming. Just a background about myself.
I've been looking at mobile platforms. I've had some experience with using Windows Mobile and the iPhone OS, but haven't had any experience with Android. My question for all of you is, what OS do you think I, or more generally, current college students should focus on?
Obviously there's the big factor of personal preferences, but looking forward, what is going to be a big market?
The iPhone OS already has a big application market, and I do think it will only grow as the iPhone market share grows, but I fear the iPhone's market will peak before I get out of college in about 3 more years.
Android seems to be the budding OS, since its market share is quite low due to only having one device out, and for a small(er) US carrier. But I feel Android, since backed by Google, will thrive for awhile.
Blackberry OS seems really nice, but for now I think the developer pool and demand for blackberry applications is quite low. But, this means that is could peak about then time I'm out of college.
Finally, Windows Mobile seems to be, and no offense to anyone here, but the laughing stock of mobile OS'. The introduction of Windows Mobile 6.5 will help, and Windows Mobile 7 could spark the WinMo community and userbase.
What are your thoughts?

iPhone will continue to be successful but its closed environment will hinder its full potential. It is likely to reach a critical mass soon that it won't be able to reach beyond as long as it clings to proprietary hardware.
Android is likely to continue to be a niche market, much like Google Docs. Successful only if you define the term in a very particular way, but not in a "mass market" way.
Blackberry, from an applications standpoint, has already stalled and is likely to continue to do so unless the Storm can break through, which seems unlikely at this point. After the initial mania over it, it's become kind of a yawn.
You've not included Symbian, but since I don't know much about it I won't comment on it here.
Windows Mobile is not likely to increase its market share significantly, but it's also unlikely to lose much more market share. Integration with the Windows desktop/server world is only likely to become tighter, and that will remain attractive to business users.
I doubt you will go far wrong with strong skills in both iPhone and WinMo. Others are risky.
But really, you mentioned you want to program for mobile devices. With the OS's you mention you are unnecessarily limiting yourself. Windows CE is a quite powerful mobile platform that many of the largest manufacturers are basing their mobile strategies on - just not telephones or other handheld devices. There are many other mobile technologies that you should investigate and will probably give you far greater opportunities than a phone OS.

Like he said, I would definately not focus on a phone OS but rather on a core OS.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, ajbopp, and I get where you're coming from. But in terms of market share for phones, I feel that the trend is going quickly towards average-user type smartphones like the iPhone. My feeling is that whatever OS can tailor towards the average user is going to be the one that comes out with the biggest market share, but that much is obviously. WinMo and Blackberry at the moment are geared towards businesses and if they stay that way they won't own the market. I'm really looking into what OS will perform well in the mass market.

Gotta disagree with you there. Whatever OS can tailor to business needs is where the market share is at. And I don't mean the device that can integrate with Exchange Server the easiest and most reliably.
The OS that will run the navigation, climate control, GPS, etc. systems in every automobile produced by Toyota, or every transport truck engineered by Navistar, or every driver from UPS...that market will dwarf the personal communication device market. The opportunity for application development is more extensive, and the value of those applications will be immeasurably higher. They already are.

let him go with the FailPhone already...

ajbopp said:
Gotta disagree with you there. Whatever OS can tailor to business needs is where the market share is at. And I don't mean the device that can integrate with Exchange Server the easiest and most reliably.
The OS that will run the navigation, climate control, GPS, etc. systems in every automobile produced by Toyota, or every transport truck engineered by Navistar, or every driver from UPS...that market will dwarf the personal communication device market. The opportunity for application development is more extensive, and the value of those applications will be immeasurably higher. They already are.
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Click to collapse
Well right now the iPhone has a sizable market share and is tailored to the average user, no?
And I think the OS that is capable of running the things you mentioned sounds like Android, since it's not limited by hardware or software limitations.

met3ora said:
Well right now the iPhone has a sizable market share and is tailored to the average user, no?
And I think the OS that is capable of running the things you mentioned sounds like Android, since it's not limited by hardware or software limitations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But it's also not standard, or well-used. You're banking on Android becoming something as commonplace as Java did so quickly in the 90s. I think that's pretty much a long shot.
Plus, you have to consider code re-use and platform diversity. Today, Windows, Windows Mobile, and WindowsCE is still the target to beat when it comes to marketing plans, project expenses, customer familiarity, legacy product integration, and a host of other considerations.
Java offered platform independence at a time when the WWW was just beginning to burgeon. Had it been developed even 5 years earlier, it probably would not have been successful.
There is no comparable event on the horizon that is likely to make Android the dominant mobile OS. There's just not enough incentive to jump to it.

As someone that sells cell phones for a living (at least while in college), I will give my perspective on what I see and hear from customers, as well, my personal feelings as a multiplatform smart phone user...
Background: I offer multiple HTC devices... the Diamond, TyTN II, Touch Dual, Touch, and S621. I offer 3, soon to be 4, Blackberries, the 8310 Curve(2mp camera, GPS, EDGE), the Pearl 8110 (Same as Curver), and the 8820 (No camera, GPS, EDGE, and WiFi), and shortly the new Curve 8900 (3.2mp camera, GPS, WiFi, and EDGE).
Customer: The majority of my customers go with the Blackberry Curve/Pearl(More Curves than Pearls). They like them for the ease of use, in terms of easy app downloading and use, easy e-mail, easy internet, easy customization with a new theme. They are mostly concerned with rock solid stability, battery life, and easy to use. Business ability plays a very small role in the choice, actually, of a BB.
Helping with business related aspects has more to do with selling a customer on a smartphone than any one brand. Also, as I am on a small tangant, BB has done a lot as of late to make their phones less business centric and more mainstream, and have been very successful with this.
As for customers that go with WinMo based devices they don't mind a slightly more complicated OS. They are a bit more tech savy. They don't really care so much about the phone's camera, as they already have a 12mp digital camera for that. The are looking more at cutting edge, from the touchscreen, to the ability to do anything with the phone. They do get frustrated with how slow out of the box the HTC can be, but they don't mind, because they are likely flashing a ROM anyways, or they don't care because it gives them more abilities out of the box than a BB will ever be able to do with every app loaded onto it.
So what does this all mean in terms of longevity? Well, a couple things...
1. WinMo has a much brighter future than BB. In 3 years, WinMo devices are going to be faster and more capable out of the box. BB's will gain in speed, but they will still be limited to essentially an 'os' inside an OS. Palm ran into the problem BB is fastly approaching, they can't improve on what they have anymore since their ceiling is already reached. That is a huge benefit WinMo has over BB, and the others, except for maybe Android, it's ceiling is much higher in terms of absoluter ability.
2. It means that whoever developes a UI for WinMo, whether it be microsoft, HTC, or someone else, that is as friendly as the BB OS will make a killing!
If I was doing a degree in computing, with my focus geared toward mobile platforms I would focus on WinMo/ Windows CE... I would also make sure my JAVA was up-to-date, as I don't see dumbphones going away anytime soon.
As for my personal preference as someone that owns both a TyTN II and a BB 8110 Pearl, I prefer WinMo. I like it because I am not affraid of technology, can customize it ten fold more than the BB, have a more complete web experience, and so forth. Basically, I prefer capability over all other aspects. And like I said already, while WinMo may lack in ease of use and out of box speed right now, it will catch up and prove to be superior.
NOTE: If, and this is a huge IF given Apple's track record, the iPhone OS becomes available for other platforms, it will explode and take over a huge share of the market, I don't think 50%, but it will be one of the top 2 smartphone OS.

pjcforpres, so you're saying that Windows Mobile will start becoming the more prominent OS in the long run?
The release of Windows Mobile 6.5 (I haven't tried it, I've since moved on to a Nokia N95 from my Tilt) looks like it's finally giving a facelift to the standard ugly interface we're all used to.
My concern with WinMo is the lack of an built-in application store. Admittedly I haven't kept up as much as I should on that, but I believe MS has one in the works to be shipped with 6.5? If so and if this takes off, I'd probably look to move into that field.
Has anyone had experience programming in XCode (iPhone/Mac OSX) and can tell how difficult it is compared to other languages such as Java?

pjcforpres said:
As someone that sells cell phones for a living (at least while in college), I will give my perspective on what I see and hear from customers, as well, my personal feelings as a multiplatform smart phone user...
Background: I offer multiple HTC devices... the Diamond, TyTN II, Touch Dual, Touch, and S621. I offer 3, soon to be 4, Blackberries, the 8310 Curve(2mp camera, GPS, EDGE), the Pearl 8110 (Same as Curver), and the 8820 (No camera, GPS, EDGE, and WiFi), and shortly the new Curve 8900 (3.2mp camera, GPS, WiFi, and EDGE).
Customer: The majority of my customers go with the Blackberry Curve/Pearl(More Curves than Pearls). They like them for the ease of use, in terms of easy app downloading and use, easy e-mail, easy internet, easy customization with a new theme. They are mostly concerned with rock solid stability, battery life, and easy to use. Business ability plays a very small role in the choice, actually, of a BB.
Helping with business related aspects has more to do with selling a customer on a smartphone than any one brand. Also, as I am on a small tangant, BB has done a lot as of late to make their phones less business centric and more mainstream, and have been very successful with this.
As for customers that go with WinMo based devices they don't mind a slightly more complicated OS. They are a bit more tech savy. They don't really care so much about the phone's camera, as they already have a 12mp digital camera for that. The are looking more at cutting edge, from the touchscreen, to the ability to do anything with the phone. They do get frustrated with how slow out of the box the HTC can be, but they don't mind, because they are likely flashing a ROM anyways, or they don't care because it gives them more abilities out of the box than a BB will ever be able to do with every app loaded onto it.
So what does this all mean in terms of longevity? Well, a couple things...
1. WinMo has a much brighter future than BB. In 3 years, WinMo devices are going to be faster and more capable out of the box. BB's will gain in speed, but they will still be limited to essentially an 'os' inside an OS. Palm ran into the problem BB is fastly approaching, they can't improve on what they have anymore since their ceiling is already reached. That is a huge benefit WinMo has over BB, and the others, except for maybe Android, it's ceiling is much higher in terms of absoluter ability.
2. It means that whoever developes a UI for WinMo, whether it be microsoft, HTC, or someone else, that is as friendly as the BB OS will make a killing!
If I was doing a degree in computing, with my focus geared toward mobile platforms I would focus on WinMo/ Windows CE... I would also make sure my JAVA was up-to-date, as I don't see dumbphones going away anytime soon.
As for my personal preference as someone that owns both a TyTN II and a BB 8110 Pearl, I prefer WinMo. I like it because I am not affraid of technology, can customize it ten fold more than the BB, have a more complete web experience, and so forth. Basically, I prefer capability over all other aspects. And like I said already, while WinMo may lack in ease of use and out of box speed right now, it will catch up and prove to be superior.
NOTE: If, and this is a huge IF given Apple's track record, the iPhone OS becomes available for other platforms, it will explode and take over a huge share of the market, I don't think 50%, but it will be one of the top 2 smartphone OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Typing on my blackstone right now so will make it short. .
I definately do -not- think the WinMo OS will thrive, nor completely go out of the picture. If they manage to increase their user experience and out of the box situation it might, but I don't see this happening anywhere untill Windows 7.
Looking at your statement about WinMo users I have to completely disagree with you. The biggest share of people that have a WinMo device do nothing with customization at all, nor are they tech-savvy people. The thing that influences phone sales the most is still the outside (Features, looks, branding) before software, looking at the sale figures of let's say the Omnia vs the iPhone in Germany says it aswell. The majority of people that bought a iPhone (average-users which present the highest share) didn't go to the Apple store because they read about the fluid OS it's using, but cause it's from Apple and they had been using an iPod for so long. The biggest reason the iPhone had such a succes was cause of Apple's image in customer-friendly electronics and as a status symbol. (Say all you want, marketing-technical this is the case.)
Most likely if we actually look at Apple's record, theres nearly no chance the iPhone OS will go multi-platform. They've always been extremely tidy-up on enforcing patents and even try to go against x86 hardware Mac OS users.
Fingers getting tired now so that's all for now

pjcforpres said:
I would also make sure my JAVA was up-to-date, as I don't see dumbphones going away anytime soon.
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Lol..
Edit: What about Palm's WEB OS???

windows will be thrive i think

This is an interesting discussion. I'm a great fun of the sloppy open OS windows offers for the same reason I dwell on these forums. You asked about an appstore, which wm6.5 has (not functional yet because of the betaness). But I really don't think that's something to base future predictions on, because everyone is catching up to that right now, I do believe nokia has an appstore as well.
As for the thriving osses, I'm quite certain that the general smartfone market share is and will be increasing. People seem to pay EUR 600 to get the newest "dumb" phones, for the same money they can have a smartphone that looks good as well. I do see apple's one provider provider as limiting for Iphone OS as a lot of people are satisfied with the deals providers proir their newest phone deal and getting a simunlocked one is quite a hassle. I have had some big discussions over people who are buying what os, and they seem to believe that the general population thinks of an iphone when they think of a multifunctional phone. That being said I'm looking very much forward to windows 7 as I think it will deal with a lot of the currents uglyness and sloppyness of the phones. It will however mean that the newer WM will be "more" closed than before, but I'll guess we will manage , 12

Right now 3 OS'es are leading the pack: WM, Apples and Symbians.
Symbians will probably continue to prosper since they are still by far the easiest to familiarize devices you can ever have. But I'm sure, until symbian figures out a way to be as pretty as an iPhone or as flexible as WM.. they will slowly come out of the picture like Palm and BBs.
As long as Steve Jobs stays alive, apple will get bigger. They may not call it iPhones anymore but it's gonna be something hip and cool that would certainly appeal to the younger/new generation market.
WM will never die. As long as you have Windows PC's, you cannot kill WM. And right now, WM6.5 is heading the right track.. it maintained the flexibility and power of WM and added an iPhone feel to it. I have no doubt that WM7 will definitely make everything better. Much like what they did from XP to Vista.
Android? Hmm.. until they show more devices that can use it, yeah maybe. But I'd stick to WM and iPhones if you wanna develop mobile apps.

antrak:
I understand what you are saying about marketing and all of that. The success of the iPhone is largely due to marketing and familiarity. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, brands and locks down their technology like Apple does. And the branding they gave the iPhone was ease of use, speed, and customization out of the box.
WinMo devices don't have that as easily out of the box. Overall, you can do more with a WinMo device than an iPhone, but it takes more to get the WinMo device to do it.
And it has been my experience, with WinMo and BB as my only 2 smart phone platforms, that the more tech savvy people go with the WinMo device, and those looking for a simpler more straight forward out of the box experience go with the BB.
At the OP:
Yes, I am saying that in the long run, WinMo will be the overall leader. Just as you see Windows based PCs as the dominant computer in the market, you will see WinMo devices as the dominant smart phone in the market. The only drawbacks WinMo has can be fixed rather easily... The lack of speed is something this community has already addressed and fixed. My TyTN II flies! The touch friendliness is being address as we speak, with Touchflo from HTC and TouchWiz from Samsung and WinMo 6.5/7.0 from Microsoft. I believe that Microsoft coming up with the solution is more likely, and is more important than for HTC or Samsung or some other company to come up with their own UI solution. Also, fingers crossed, better graphics drivers would go a long way in helping out WinMo devices, especially HTC devices.
Also, note that WinMo syncs up much better with all those home PC's than any other platform. People looking to get a smart phone are buying them with the idea that they can use the phone in place of their computer for many regular day tasks. I use my TyTN II to manage the small business I am starting up, my work emails, my schedule, school work, and so much more.
I also have a BB Pearl, and as much as I loved it's simplicity, it wasn't powerful enough or integrated enough with my home PC to cut it. BB is great at making a rock solid idiot proof smart phone that allows you to communicate with ease, and they are doing more for multimedia. But BB is approaching it's limitations as it is an 'os' inside and OS.
WebOS looks amazing, and I am sure it will run amazing as well. Palm does good work, for the most part, but they are similar to BB. The new WebOS is a step above, and will have a higher ceiling than BBs current ceiling for future ability. But it is still going to fall short of WinMo, Android, etc. in long term totality because it is too isolated, just like BB.
The advantages WinMo, and the iPhone as well, have over everyone else is that they have full computer based OS backing them up. WinMo has Windows PCs, the iPhone has Macs. As Apple develops the iPhone OS more and more, it will sync better and better with Macs, and do more and more.
As Android handsets become more plentiful, the development will pick up pace, and it will gain a following, especially with Google backing them. And their is the potential they will sync up multiplatform better than anyone else just because they are open source.
WinMo will gain in out of the box speed and UI friendliness. It will probably be a year for WinMo 7.0 to come out and catch up in speed and UI. But WinMo is already ahead of the game when it comes to everything else. Just look at the market and what is available for WinMo devices compared to the other OS.
WinMo will always sync better with Windows PCs than any other OS. As Apple works on it, the iPhone will sync better with Macs than any other OS. And as time goes on, technology advances, and so forth, the smart phone market will follow the home computer market. WinMo will be the leader, Apple will be second, and the others will still hold on to the market, but they won't ever eclipse WinMo and Apple once the market settles.
Basically, I see the smart phone market as a developing market right now. I don't think today’s numbers and trends are very significant when you are trying to size up long term trends. I believe long term trends, and business school agrees here, will follow several factors, specifically for smart phones those work out like such:
1. Usability: This has to do with speed, UI ease of use, and compatibility with other technologies.
2. Price: The more expensive, the less likely it is to "boom" or "tip" or any of those nice catch phrases.
3. Stickiness: Aka, cool factor, fun factor, hip factor, everyone must have it factor.
I see WinMo, in the long term, leading all others when it comes to usability, as it is a familiar platform that will sync better with already established technologies. It will also be competively priced, except for BB, I don't believe anyone else is as cheap. And stickiness... well the iPhone has that right now, but with proper marketing and better UI, WinMo will catch back up. And FYI, I believe sticky wise it goes 1.iPhone 2. BB Curve 3. G1 4. HTC of sort.
I am rambling and all over the place a bit by now, and since I am not going to edit, I will recap to bring it all together.
Based on my personal experience with WinMo and BB, as a salesman and an end user, as well my knowledge of the market, I believe WinMo devices have the brightest future. Of course, WinMo devices have to overcome their out of the box lack of speed and UI friendliness, but I don't see those as insurmountable obstacles. Rather, I see those as all the more reason to focus on the WinMo platform, as there is going to be a demand for talented programmers capable of achieving that goal, as well, capable of taking advantage of the wide breadth of abilities that WinMo has.

I see where you're going in terms of integration and its benefits towards the future. I guess I'm being a litle short-sighted here, as now I feel the basic smartphone user *isn't* actually integrating.
Admittedly I'm looking primarily (and that's a shortfall of mine) at my own demographic, which is college kids looking for trendiness and wow factor. But I'm willing to bet that if you asked 20 college kids with WinMo or iPhones, you'd find 5 or less of them are actually syncing them to their computer.
As of right now, I believe the general public isn't tieing in their phone with their computer as most, if not all of us on this forum are used to doing. So in terms of integration being a big selling point, I don't see the general public looking at that as highly as us as more tech-savvy people do. Now, I DO believe that when we get far enough in to the future that integration WILL be a major selling point, but I believe the near future still seperates phone from computer.
The question of what attracts people to a phone is a rather interesting one. This is another assumption I'm making, but I believe what draws people to the iPhone is part trendy factor, part status symbol and part "you can do so many things with it so easily". I'm definitely open to being proven wrong, and I guess my argument comes from pure assumption and a bit of knowledge on how the college-kid's-brain functions, but I do see the average college kid as a fairly accurate representation of the general public.
It may look from all my posts that I'm very pro-iPhone, which isn't necessarily true. We can all agree that Apple has done many things right with their phone. I'm just interested in how it gained its popularity. If one were to see just how popular it was going to become and jumped on developing apps on it very early, there is a giant profit to be made here.
That's what I'm looking for-- what will peak in the coming years?

met3ora said:
I see where you're going in terms of integration and its benefits towards the future. I guess I'm being a litle short-sighted here, as now I feel the basic smartphone user *isn't* actually integrating.
Admittedly I'm looking primarily (and that's a shortfall of mine) at my own demographic, which is college kids looking for trendiness and wow factor. But I'm willing to bet that if you asked 20 college kids with WinMo or iPhones, you'd find 5 or less of them are actually syncing them to their computer.
As of right now, I believe the general public isn't tieing in their phone with their computer as most, if not all of us on this forum are used to doing. So in terms of integration being a big selling point, I don't see the general public looking at that as highly as us as more tech-savvy people do. Now, I DO believe that when we get far enough in to the future that integration WILL be a major selling point, but I believe the near future still seperates phone from computer.
The question of what attracts people to a phone is a rather interesting one. This is another assumption I'm making, but I believe what draws people to the iPhone is part trendy factor, part status symbol and part "you can do so many things with it so easily". I'm definitely open to being proven wrong, and I guess my argument comes from pure assumption and a bit of knowledge on how the college-kid's-brain functions, but I do see the average college kid as a fairly accurate representation of the general public.
It may look from all my posts that I'm very pro-iPhone, which isn't necessarily true. We can all agree that Apple has done many things right with their phone. I'm just interested in how it gained its popularity. If one were to see just how popular it was going to become and jumped on developing apps on it very early, there is a giant profit to be made here.
That's what I'm looking for-- what will peak in the coming years?
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I agree with you in general here... I am looking into the future as much as possible as that is what you seem to be asking about... "what will peak in the coming years?"
I also agree that in general, the average user isn't syncing their phone with their computer and are looking more towards ease of use. That is why I tried, and maybe failed, to emphasis that WinMo needs to improve that aspect in order for it to pop as I believe it will.
WinMo as it is right now is not very user friendly. The UI is outdated and not touch friendly. Out of the box the phones are slow and cumbersome for the "trendy" market.
But in 3 years, I don't believe that will be true anymore of WinMo devices. I believe they will increase in speed, and thus useability. I believe the UI will become more friendly to the end consumer, especially the low tech end user that WinMo seems to miss out on.
This isn't to say there are no "non-techy" users of WinMo, there are plenty, probably more than are super techy like us. But even those "non-techy" WinMo users have a bit more tech knowledge than your average BB user.
Basically, what I am getting at is that in the long term, 3 years from now when you are graduating, 10 years from now, and so forth, WinMo has a brighter future than other platforms for the very reason it will integrate better, and its current downsides are easily fixed compared to other OS downsides.

Pocket PC's are not good with cameras, they don't have good battery life, 65 colors and no multitouch, not apps preinstalled, difficut for the average user, they don't handle games right (they are good games out there but they are old),no visibility under sun and on top of that the new models can't handle non converted videos (thanks god I have Asus P535)...
That's why the public doesn't like Windows Mobile. And 6.5 - Wow transperent bars and new start menu - nothing at all. The hope for Windows Mobile is Nvidia Tegra.. !

One thing I have trouble with is gauging how long it takes for things to happen. WinMo is behind on UI's, true, but is trying to be saved by 3rd party UI's like TouchFlo and TouchWiz. I think a lot of the problem is that WinMo DOES have the reputation of being slow and not user friendly. Of course, this reputation is due to the out of the box experience, which is very crucial.
But how long will it take for people to be comfortable with WinMo? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most people are now buying WinMo phones that have custom UI's on top of them (HTC, Samsung, etc), and I think this will really help in the revival of WM as a "good" OS.
Now, Android is starting out with the initial impression that it is touch friendly, fast and customizable. WinMo is gonna need to dig itself out of the hole that is its own stereotypes, and I believe Android has the advantage BECAUSE of its initial impression.
Thoughts?

Marketplace???

Has anyone noticed how ridiculously expensive and overpriced applications are in the Windows Mobile Marketplace?
For one, their selection of applications are terrible. So far they're just a bunch of badly designed generic apps that don't feed any real purpose. The games are horrible too.
The only decent application I wanted to buy was Pac Man, but that's like £5 !!! for a measly game that probably only has 5 levels and I'm only going to play when I'm bored.
. I just want a decent Twitter application that has kinetic scrolling and doesn't show that horrid side-bar control.
. A decent media player with visualisations and coverflow.
. A few nicely designed touchscreen games including ones like Tweeter that makes use of the G-sensor.
It makes no sense for Windows to release all these devices and advertise that WM is a social device when their marketplace is a bunch of bollocks.

ilabstudios said:
. I just want a decent Twitter application that has kinetic scrolling and doesn't show that horrid side-bar control.
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http://code.google.com/p/pocketwit/

I agree. I am very disapointed with the marketplace myself. I was expecting thousands of high quality cheap and free apps but that's not what we have yet. I am hoping that this is only due to the fact that it's been 10 days since its release and must be hard to get thousands of apps ready to go in the first few months. I am confident though that microsoft is ready to compete with android and iphone so must surely have something more in mind than they currently have.

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with Microsoft. The WinMo software companies haven't adjusted yet to that fact that there is a central place for the average user to hit and find their competition. Something like SPB could be as pricey as it wanted, because it could take the average user forever to find any quality alternatives. They have the advertising dollars, placement on carrier websites, etc. Now there's a spot for a smaller competitor to get the same exposure. But it'll take time for them to pop up.
$30 for any mobile app is retarded. I'm really disappointed that since release day, I'm only seeing 10 new apps in the store. Maybe the "what's new" button is broken, but there's a couple on the results page I installed day 1 of Marketplace being open

The lack of apps is probably not helped by the fact that, as I understand it, Microsoft charge an extra $10 or so for each country to list the app in (and require that the app be localized for that country) so I'd assume that a good chunk of people developing apps in the US aren't going to push their apps beyond the US (I'm no developer so haven't read the full pricing details but that's the gist of what I've seen in some MS developer forums with people questioning why their apps aren't available)
It'll especially be true for free or cheap apps - if you've made a free app, would you pay out to make it available to other countries?
The only reason I can see for restricting apps to a country is if they are purely regional - TV schedules for a particular country, or train schedules or something.
Steve.

Well, I'm in the US, so not really an issue. Trust me, not missing much if they are actually holding out on pushing to other countries.
I'd also guess the word is out to developers that Marketplace is a good spot for their software to turn freeware and end up on a torrent so perhaps they are holding off until Microsoft fixes the security.

Jesus shoe tapping finger clicking Christ, give it a chance its only just started. I have already seen a lot on there for free and under 70p... just wait and be a bit patient.

give it a chance its only just started
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I would if that were the case. Unfortunately, Marketplace has been exposed to developers months before it was officially released, which is why I am confused as to why there are so many cheap applications. I'm sure that there will be more applications coming soon, but I'm more concerned about the pricing and quality of applications. When I watched the first keynote last year on the coming of Marketplace I had higher hopes than his.
I realise that some iPhone developers have investment from other companies and some of them even have a development team working on the apps, but still.. look at the type of stuff Android have compared with Windows, it's ridiculous. It's as if no real developer wants to develop on the WM platform.
I feel that their advertising campaigns are misleading. They're trying to get across the fact that WM is now social and more application orientated when so far all I can find on the marketplace are overpriced applications that seem like it was developed for WM5.
Personally I don't think 6.5 is going to be a huge success, TechCrunch has already given it a bad review. WM7 better be different.
Btw. In the world of technology, there's no room for 'Oh give it a chance' type attitude. Technology companies usually have once chance of pulling something off. Hence the reason why companies like Google or Apple spend millions of dollars on market resource, trial testing and development research.

Marketplace? Pah!
http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/
I've been relying on the RSS feed from this fine site for the past couple of years or so, since my original TyTN, TyTN II and now my Touch Pro 2. It's a great site, has introduced me to great programs like NoniGPSPlot, has new applications all the time and finally - it's all free (and not warez free, but genuine software).
Great stuff - Microsoft saw what Apple were doing too late and have done too little me thinks to succeed.
I love my Windows Mobile phone; but Apple's iPhone taught Microsoft and other mobile developers how important eye candy in a phone OS was. Google's Android OS will be taking the lions share of future mobile phone sales and I see Android phones surpassing the iPhone.
Unless Microsoft do something right, not many peeps will want a Windows Mobile device in a few years time...

So far the only good to come out of the app store is Zenonia...badass rpg... 10 bucks though But well worth it in my opinion! If you like old school snes hack and slash rpg's, this game is for you. Full sound, decent story, just great overall. For me, there's point in playing my old favorite snes games on my phone because with sound, to me its pointless. and not using sound is the only way to get an snes emulator to run smooth; regardless of which one it is ( morphgear, smart-whatever its called, or pocketsnes

Paulplex said:
...
Great stuff - Microsoft saw what Apple were doing too late and have done too little me thinks to succeed.
I love my Windows Mobile phone; but Apple's iPhone taught Microsoft and other mobile developers how important eye candy in a phone OS was. Google's Android OS will be taking the lions share of future mobile phone sales and I see Android phones surpassing the iPhone.
Unless Microsoft do something right, not many peeps will want a Windows Mobile device in a few years time...
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I see plenty of commercials for iPhones and Google phones on TV but absolutely none for WinMo phones. MS really needs to start promoting itself in this market.
S

How about the annoying fact that I don't get a chance to choose where to intstall the app. They all go directly to device memory. That sucks balls!

Paulplex said:
http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/
I've been relying on the RSS feed from this fine site for the past couple of years or so, since my original TyTN, TyTN II and now my Touch Pro 2. It's a great site, has introduced me to great programs like NoniGPSPlot, has new applications all the time and finally - it's all free (and not warez free, but genuine software).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nice one !

Theres a cab floating around here to fix that...
moSess said:
How about the annoying fact that I don't get a chance to choose where to intstall the app. They all go directly to device memory. That sucks balls!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

mpicart said:
Theres a cab floating around here to fix that...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=568806

@Paulplex - Thanks for the link. I know I can get free applications quite easily, that's what I've done so far. However most of them aren't to 6.5 standards, the majority of them are still coded for use on old WM5 phones.
When you spend hundreds on a phone you expect to install applications on it that are intended for such a high-end device. The only application which is worth installing is the Myspace and Facebook app, and even those aren't great.
I regard my phone as my house in a way. When we buy a house, we intend to fill it up with furniture, usually the more expensive the house, the higher quality the furniture. The same should apply to phones, in that instead of furniture we require high quality applications. But where are they? SPB is the only one I can think of.

do you people think that bill gates and the people at microsoft are just gonna sit around and allow apple to dominate the app frenzy in the market for pdas and devices? dont u think that most people at microsoft all have winmo devices? do u really think any employee would have an apple iphone?...so of coursse thousands of new gsensor apps are on their way of being placed on the marketplace or in development...obvious with android showing that they have developers also who are pumpin out apps for them..microsoft is doin the same thing..give them time the winmo app store just came out..and a gsensor phone for a winmo device first showed up only a yr ago..so they have a bit of software catching up to do with these new devices. HTC thank god...droped 6 new phones for the north american market just this month alone..with the tp2 being the first in september..(htc pure,htc hero,htc tilt 2,htc imagio,htc mytouch) so basically with 6.5 also droped...htc has done their part by stacking microsoft with a heavy set and multy array of phones to crush the competition i.e iphone 3gs or whatever version its at now. microsoft is not gonna sit around and allow apple to dominate the app market..and they sure as hell arent gonna let android..a new OS that has no business gettin their OS on htc devices, surpass them either...remembr bill tried to buy out google but they rejected a couple yrs ago. And u all know bill gates has a winmo devices,prolly a htc touch hd or the new imagio...dont u think he wants a huge selection of apps himselve? trust..were not the only ones on the heals of microsoft to get these developers in line..and get these apps rolled out...plus half the apps apple has for the iphone are useless and they are just puttin them in commercials to show that they have a **** load of apps...half the apps they have could be bunddled up with other apps like how a spb traveler or mobile shell app is but they are just tryin to show off how many apps they have..plus most of all the developers for apple just have the change a couple scripts around in their apps and all the same apple apps could be made into cabs and become winmo apps...so the **** isnt hard..the microsoft winmo team execut8ves or w/e u wanna call them need to get their marketing department working full throttle and start shipping new apps with these new phones...i repeat HTC has done their part..now its time for the software to catch up...

"Windows" isn't a device, "Windows" doesn't release devices, and "Windows" doesn't sell devices. "Microsoft" isn't any of those things, either. Microsoft is a company that produces an OS that runs on LOTS of devices (some phones, some PDAs, and a whole lot of things that are neither).

Plenty of time for this thing to get up to snuff.
But that said, the real problem is that while there aren't that many WM OS out there, (5, 6, 6.1, 6.5) and most apps will pretty much install in either, the different hardware config makes it a different ballgame, especially with games, no pun intended. Some phones have buttons, some don't. Some games will work only in landscape, some will not, some will work on both. And not all phones are exactly finger friendly. They're meant to be used with a stylus for the most part, the finger's a secondary thing.
So yea, these developers will have their hands full, unless of course they want to limit their market to particular devices only.
So that being said, my gripe is that none of these apps are telling me they're to be used in a particular hardware platform.

@moegdaog, I'm a developer myself, so I realise the number of new applications that will come soon, however that's not what I was specifically talking about.
I'm more concerned about the level of development on applications and games. Why so many developers opt to develop for iPhone isn't because of a bias view-point, it's because the tools they provide mean that they can develop a high-end application and start earning money as soon as it's in the marketplace.
However the type of developers are not the same. iPhone developers are usually younger, multimedia orientated so they probably have skills in web, graphics and illustration, where as Microsoft developers are usually a lot older and more prone to developing utility (function) based apps and have very limited skills in anything else. Most developers aren't able to outsource and so they are left with a rubbish application.
My worry is that yes there will be many applications within marketplace but will they actually be worth all that money and will any investors support the development of these apps. Also how will these applications differ from what we have seen on Android and iPhone.

Is Windows Mobile an application desert?

I'm fairly new to smartphones, having had the Tilt2 for only about six months after about four years with a Treo 650, but one thing seems to be increasingly true about Windows Mobile phones: If you want the greatest capabilities, you just have to get an iPhone, not a Windows phone.
It just drives me crazy that all the good apps are iPhone. Deposit checks to Chase Bank without deposit slips or going to the bank using your iPhone camera AND THE CHASE DEPOSIT APP FOR iPHONE! Netflix, play movies on iPhone or trailers on Windows. AT&T U-verse download and play movies...on your iPhone. These are three fairly new ones that come to mind, but it is this way for seemingly everything. Even TCM's new movie schedule app is for iPhone, Droid, and Blackberry...Blackberry for crying out loud...but not Windows.
It's another 18 months before we can upgrade for a reasonable price from our two HTC Tilt2 phones to iPhones. If Microsoft wants to increase its market share, it needs to offer subsidies to developers. Windows 7 Mobile is not the answer...we don't buy computers for the sake of the operating systems. It's for the programs that run on the OS. Isn't it the same with smart phones? They all make calls and take bad photos. It's the other stuff that is the difference.
Am I wrong?

Youre absolutely right, however with over 300,000 downloads of the windows phone 7 SDK already, I think the next version of windows will have plenty of apps to enjoy. Microsoft is also wanting developers to release a free demo of all software, so we can check out any app to make sure we want to buy it. With the integration of XBOX Live, playing games online with other windows 7 users and the focus on gaming, WP7 is going to be awesome. UI definitely looks great and there are rumors that the day the marketplace opens up there will be over 100,000 aps submitted and available. Things really are looking up for microsoft phones. I know I'm getting one!

MPlayer: will let you stream hulu and bbc and others.
Movies for rental: Check out Amazon Unbox. It's part of amazons video service, where you can rent and buy movies and tv shows. You can have the settings set to automatically download a mobile version of the movie or show you are getting. Though I've never tried it with a rental. I usually just buy tv shows for 99 cents. Downside is it is not streaming, but download to pc and then transfer to your phone. Another option is to use
It's true that some of the very new apps will probably never see a WinMo 6.x port since the platform is switching to WP7, but calling it an "application desert" is a stretch. I have over 100 different programs installed to my phone, with everything from musical instrument simulators to various business tools and games. There's a huge number of free programs as well as a lot of high quality paid-for programs. Check the "apps worth installing on the tp2" for a good sample of the free applications you can get.

bowserb, as you said, you are new to smartphones, so with a lot of respect i want to share something, my experience with smartphones is a little more than yours, motorola q, blackberry, htc 8125, samsung epix, samsung blackjack, htc touch and know i have a tilt2, and beleive me its much more phone than the iphone
windows mobile and iphone are two differents worlds, windows is more for professionals and business people, focussed in getting the job done, excellent in word, excel, pp, (create and edit), emails capabilities, outlook and exchange sync, etc,etc, then as a second priority is the music, videos, etc,etc
on the other hand iphone is the phone for teenagers, to play, to think they have the ultimatte machine (go to a high school and teel me if dont see al least a hundred of them in 110 kids), you need aplications for everything, let me explain, when you are to compare a phone you have to do it from the box, which one is more capable without going to itunes or marketplace, there the iphone dont have a chance, in others words if you dont jailbreak the iphone its almost useless, my sister and my brother have them, so i know what im talking about
if you want real games and real tv, you have xbox, playstation and a flat screen

MS doesn't care about its market share for Windows Mobile 6. Mobile is a tiny part of MS's business, completely insignificant compared to sales of PC operating systems, Office, etc. It remains to be seen how much MS will even care about Windows Phone 7. With WP7, its possible they can make money off the mobile market like Apple and Google have, but that remains to be seen. It would require a whole new level of support and financial commitment than MS has shown in the past. MS has proved they can make money from a new market (XBOX), if they see it as a viable potential opportunity and throw enough resources at it. But if they go into half-hearted, they will fail now that Apple and Google already have a substantial hold on the market.
Yes, commercial developer support for WM6 is drying up with WP7 coming in the next couple months. But there is still a huge user supported base, many will argue. If you want more support from MS and other commercial developers, its not going to happen. They have all moved on.
The underpinnings of WM6 is just too old for developers to make backwards compatible applications. All the WM products up to version 6 are based on the same Windows CE code from 2000. So you can see why there is little desire to make an application for this outdated OS, when there is a modern updated version coming out in a few months.
And don't forget about Android. The iPhone is all the rave for the uninformed. But if you want a OS that has a huge user community, and tons more customization and function than the iPhone, then Android is what you want. Unless MS can really turn things around, I'm almost certainly going Android for my next phone.

Since you want an Iphone so bad.....
Here is my two cents on an iPhone.
Yes, I agree with you it has a lot of nifty apps, in various categories. On of the other side, a "phone" is for making calls. I have 3 cousins, and a few family friends who have Iphones, they hate the "phone" part of it because it drops calls, and lags on the phone screen severly. I know many people who have smartphones who send internet to their iPhone's to do what you were talking about with the Chase banking things and stuff. The new iPod Touch has a camera and mic if I'm not mistaken.
My dad used to be subscribed to a PocketPC magazine, and they ranked iPhone top of the line for apps, but worst for phone usage. Even worse than regular phones (ie non-smartphones).
Whatever you want to do is up to you though.

App desert?
Thanks for the comments, guys. I had no idea that WM6.5 was an update of Windows CE. Last time I used that OS was on a Casio PDA...a really long time ago. (Note for the younger crowd: A PDA was smartphone without the phone.) About Windows 7 mobile--will I have to buy a new phone to get it, or will there likely be an upgrade available from HTC?
MS Office. I can't imagine iPhone Contacts being a clumsier, more limited application than on the Tilt2, where contacts show up multiple times and all with m next to the name. Word and Excel are OK, but I almost never use them, even though they are indispensable on my desktop computer.
Dropped calls on iPhone. I suspect that is an AT&T problem, not iPhone. My Tilt2 drops calls all the time, as did the Treo 650 before it and the Sony/Erikson before that. Isn't that the reason people are clamoring for iPhone on Verizon?
iPhone is for teenagers? How do you know I'm not one? And even though I'm not, why should they have all the fun? No I don't really care about music and movies on my phone, but the ever growing list of useful and practical apps for the iPhone would seem to make that platform the choice of all age groups!
Anyway, this reply is mostly rhetorical. In 18 months, it will be time to survey the smartphone landscape.

redpoint73 said:
MS doesn't care about its market share for Windows Mobile 6. Mobile is a tiny part of MS's business, completely insignificant compared to sales of PC operating systems, Office, etc. It remains to be seen how much MS will even care about Windows Phone 7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They better start caring, mobile phones are going to be replacing PC's for many folks in the future.

txrider said:
They better start caring, mobile phones are going to be replacing PC's for many folks in the future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They do. They are investing billions into WP7.

bowserb said:
About Windows 7 mobile--will I have to buy a new phone to get it, or will there likely be an upgrade available from HTC?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WP7 will be for new phones only, and an official upgrade is out of the question. The Tilt2/TP2 does not meet the stiff hardware requirements mandated by WP7. From the processing power all the way to the hardware button layout, it doesn't meet the new WP7 standards. Wouldn't be surprised if the smart folks on XDA will get some form of hacked version to work on Rhodium, but propably won't be quite the same experience as on a phone that runs WP7 natively.

redpoint73 said:
WP7 will be for new phones only, and an official upgrade is out of the question. The Tilt2/TP2 does not meet the stiff hardware requirements mandated by WP7. From the processing power all the way to the hardware button layout, it doesn't meet the new WP7 standards. Wouldn't be surprised if the smart folks on XDA will get some form of hacked version to work on Rhodium, but propably won't be quite the same experience as on a phone that runs WP7 natively.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even the high end HTC HD2 will not get an official upgrade to WP7, it has been said by Microsoft and HTC....
If the people on here can do it...that's another story...

maybe this could help HTC revive themselves

so we all know HTC is in trouble. The cellphone market is constantly moving forward and looking to the future for their next big thing. I, however, suggest that htc should take a page out of their old book and come out with a next-gen hd2. When I think about freedom in a handset, I think about this phone first and THEN android's early days. We live in a time where mainstream phone manufacturers give us a product and thats that whether we like it or not. my last 4 android phones weren't able to be rooted and so I gave up altogether. I'm currently an iphone user. Not because I think it's better but because I just gave up. I am not happy with todays offerings. I feel like phones should be more advanced now. I mean yeah there are very nice phones today with tiny bezels and crazy specs but I'm speaking more from a OS perspective. Yes pixels are nice, yes samsung has amazing phones but at the end of the day they're only still running android. Android has evolved but, in my eyes, just barely. It's still the same at its core. Back on topic, I think it would be in everybody's best interest if htc were to look back to this phone for the future. This time next year will mark the 10th anniversary of the HD2 and they're in a very troubled state right now so why not? HD3, the all new HTC HD, whatever they may call it is irrelevant as long as they just do it. The smartphone market is stagnant right now, there's countless evidence to support this claim. Manufacturers should start focusing more on operating systems than bezels. It is clearly inevitable that there will eventually be new contestants in the duopoly we have right now.
I'm not sure how to approach this but let's just put it like this. If i had it my way; it's November 2019 and HTC releases the hd3, theres a whole back to the future campaign. they trademark the phrase "the future is in your hands." it's on billboards and ads with the phone sitting comfortably in a pair of palms. there's black hands, white hands, brown hands, robot hands to show that this is the phone for everybody. it runs android by default but it is meant to run other operating systems. HTC has invested money into smaller os manufacturers and home-based devs to develop/port their existing OS. they run competitions and such for people to show off their OS offerings. Not for them to purchase and license but to show that the whole movement is about the people and their freedom phone. the device is a tinkerers dream. The app stores are limited but that isn't the point. We're approaching a time where AI is slowly eliminating the need for 6 billion apps. XDA is the go-to spot again. We need a more capable mobile OS and why shouldn't HTC be one of the first to push that with their hardware. I know microsoft will be putting out the surface phone soon and I'd be willing to bet it will run full windows 10. Why not have a legitimate early competitor to push the agenda? If I want to run ubuntu desktop or kali linux on my phone fluidly why can't I? This may very well be a niche product but it will be huge for developers and will most definitely be a big conversation. That alone would gain some traction. hardware revisions thereafter could include multiple usb-c connectors, maybe an x86 architecture, maybe modularity, maybe this maybe that. I just dream of a pocketable device that would truly feel free of restraints and I believe HTC is the one for the job. Manufacturers are always giving us what THEY think we need instead of actually leaving it up to us. Ask any savvy person what the most legendary smartphone was and they'll say the HD2, ask them why and I guarantee every answer is the same. This is something I am passionate about and I haven't slept yet and I know the format is all messed up but I just wanted to put the idea in peoples heads.

I second this motion. The HTC HD2 Leo I own is a beast. I will admit that it was frustrating at first. I must have soft bricked it half a dozen times messing with settings and software I had no business touching as I didn't have a clue what I was doing. Then I found some good tutorials and finally, the promised land. XDA DEVELOPERS FORUM.
I found that the HD2 was an incredibly versatile and robust piece of tech. I did soft brick it again a time or two, but always I was able to rejuvenate it. The downfall, I believe was Microsoft ending the 6.5 os right after release. That coupled with the power house of android and the backing and resources it had soon overshadowed the HD2. But quite a few kept a place in there heart for it. The capability of the device and the developers to modify and utilize the platform to do extraordinary things has, in my opinion, never been matched. HTC needed a flagship. They were in the pack, but had a desire and opportunity to pull to the forefront. With the HD2 they did surge ahead. They didn't fail us, the market and consumer failed them. Too many got overly frustrated as they failed to understand the accessibility and basic root to pathway to app to accessories. The various models also caused consumers, who were hearing of this wonder of Google and Android, some with the apple iPhone in hand and its "friendly yet restrictive" os, and they rage quit on the HTC.
After reading the above post, I have thought long and hard on what was, what is, and what could be for HD devices. I have several interesting observations.
1. The versatility of the HD2 opened it up to power-users, techs, devs and wide eyed dreamy technophiles like myself. The ability of the HD2 to use Java, WinMo, PPC software, Android and linux gave so many a highly adaptable device for personal preference, personalization and experimentation.
2. The HD2 could act as a PDA, Phone, PC, Diagnostic tool, Microsoft Office companion and controller... The list goes on. Yes you can do all those things with an android or apple device now, but the ability to adjust the hardware settings, application features, information export and format has been greatly handicapped by a gap between developer abilities an end users abilities. Rooting helps with this, but rooting itself is a tricky and iffy prospect. I have noticed that certain areas of focus and purpose for applications have software that does not cover everything desired, or is entirely too broad and basic to be fully accurate. I have found myself and others needing 2 or three applications to accomplish with accuracy what could be done with one openly versatile and layered 'package'.
3. The HTC HD2 is still capable of competing with most of the low to mid level devices on the market today. I can hear some of you rolling your eyes, but I stick by that statement. Even with some outdated components and slower buss and cache speeds, it can hold its own. I attribute that to the versatility.
4. The vision of the HTC HD3 MODULAR COMPONENT ENGINE. Yup. I may be insane after all. Yet my madness has reason, I am just not linguistically skilled enough in Techaneeze to put it to words. Basically, the device by itself is a fully functioning phone with the latest capabilities and trends. The average user will be able to use it straight out the box, though with multiple new options such as dual OS preinstalled, dual SD card slots, Mega More than anyone needs camera resolutions, speakers that actually work loud and clear, maybe predocked gizmos, chochkies and dodads like Bluetooth earpiece(beats me on the design so far), NFC tags or keyring fobs(whatever those are called), a hidden micro sim/sd card compartment, an actual headphone jack, plasma lighter/taser, multi use survival card, toothpick, tweezers, det-cord crimper. OK OK i am being silly, but its late and I am hungry.
The added wow factor is that the HD3 is a driver/interface for a modular expansion platform that can be customized for various trades. IT tools like frequency counter, component tester, etc.; scientific lab tools and sensors; in the field career specific tools for geologist, meteorologist, anthropologists, etc.
So far, i just have envisioned a framework buss with plug in ports for specific electronics and sensors, etc.
I will try to expand on this idea, but I am now at the point that I believe I need to poll the public. I will attempt to create an effective poll(s) at a later time when I have all cylinders firing.
Good night, and good luck!

I just stumbled on to this forum browsing xda in the new year..and as each year passes i feel sad that these HD2 forums get more and more silent ( I bot the HD2 in 2009, the year of its launch) ...strange this phone got so many people to love their device like no other, I guess people remember the joy they felt when they used it and the fact that it was probably the most modded phone on the planet....fact that it ran android marshmallow not too far back is testament to the loyalty of developers and users of this phone who never gave up on it, kept it alive and relevant .... I guess we all miss the extreme flexibility of our beloved device today, of course also miss the huge flutter of activity on the xda forums for this phone, the forums were always buzzing with something new ( ROM, app ) the phone could run or some feature that was finally made to work...so so great to see the above 2 posts in 2018, good to see activity and that people still remember this great device and are still hoping it will be reborn in some form in the future, cheers to that!!!!

Same sentiments here. I bought the hd2 on release in 2009 and it was a lovely device. I remember installing the latest Android ROMs and kernels on it, was so fun. We're at a point if perfection though, most modern devices run at well you hardly need to tinker with them anymore. My Galaxy note 9 and Huawei mate 20 pro are proof to that, these 2 phones are Android in it's perfection but the hd2 will always have a place in our hearts!

I am still amazed to see what the HD2 achieved.. I also bought it in 2009.. had loads of fun flashing it (or may i say them, i ended up having 4 of them at the same time ) whith android and windows.. I still have 2 or 3 of them laying around somewhere.. was an incredible device that gave loads of fun