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I'm a freshman at Purdue University studying computer science, and my interest pretty much lays in mobile devices and programming. Just a background about myself.
I've been looking at mobile platforms. I've had some experience with using Windows Mobile and the iPhone OS, but haven't had any experience with Android. My question for all of you is, what OS do you think I, or more generally, current college students should focus on?
Obviously there's the big factor of personal preferences, but looking forward, what is going to be a big market?
The iPhone OS already has a big application market, and I do think it will only grow as the iPhone market share grows, but I fear the iPhone's market will peak before I get out of college in about 3 more years.
Android seems to be the budding OS, since its market share is quite low due to only having one device out, and for a small(er) US carrier. But I feel Android, since backed by Google, will thrive for awhile.
Blackberry OS seems really nice, but for now I think the developer pool and demand for blackberry applications is quite low. But, this means that is could peak about then time I'm out of college.
Finally, Windows Mobile seems to be, and no offense to anyone here, but the laughing stock of mobile OS'. The introduction of Windows Mobile 6.5 will help, and Windows Mobile 7 could spark the WinMo community and userbase.
What are your thoughts?
iPhone will continue to be successful but its closed environment will hinder its full potential. It is likely to reach a critical mass soon that it won't be able to reach beyond as long as it clings to proprietary hardware.
Android is likely to continue to be a niche market, much like Google Docs. Successful only if you define the term in a very particular way, but not in a "mass market" way.
Blackberry, from an applications standpoint, has already stalled and is likely to continue to do so unless the Storm can break through, which seems unlikely at this point. After the initial mania over it, it's become kind of a yawn.
You've not included Symbian, but since I don't know much about it I won't comment on it here.
Windows Mobile is not likely to increase its market share significantly, but it's also unlikely to lose much more market share. Integration with the Windows desktop/server world is only likely to become tighter, and that will remain attractive to business users.
I doubt you will go far wrong with strong skills in both iPhone and WinMo. Others are risky.
But really, you mentioned you want to program for mobile devices. With the OS's you mention you are unnecessarily limiting yourself. Windows CE is a quite powerful mobile platform that many of the largest manufacturers are basing their mobile strategies on - just not telephones or other handheld devices. There are many other mobile technologies that you should investigate and will probably give you far greater opportunities than a phone OS.
Like he said, I would definately not focus on a phone OS but rather on a core OS.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, ajbopp, and I get where you're coming from. But in terms of market share for phones, I feel that the trend is going quickly towards average-user type smartphones like the iPhone. My feeling is that whatever OS can tailor towards the average user is going to be the one that comes out with the biggest market share, but that much is obviously. WinMo and Blackberry at the moment are geared towards businesses and if they stay that way they won't own the market. I'm really looking into what OS will perform well in the mass market.
Gotta disagree with you there. Whatever OS can tailor to business needs is where the market share is at. And I don't mean the device that can integrate with Exchange Server the easiest and most reliably.
The OS that will run the navigation, climate control, GPS, etc. systems in every automobile produced by Toyota, or every transport truck engineered by Navistar, or every driver from UPS...that market will dwarf the personal communication device market. The opportunity for application development is more extensive, and the value of those applications will be immeasurably higher. They already are.
let him go with the FailPhone already...
ajbopp said:
Gotta disagree with you there. Whatever OS can tailor to business needs is where the market share is at. And I don't mean the device that can integrate with Exchange Server the easiest and most reliably.
The OS that will run the navigation, climate control, GPS, etc. systems in every automobile produced by Toyota, or every transport truck engineered by Navistar, or every driver from UPS...that market will dwarf the personal communication device market. The opportunity for application development is more extensive, and the value of those applications will be immeasurably higher. They already are.
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Well right now the iPhone has a sizable market share and is tailored to the average user, no?
And I think the OS that is capable of running the things you mentioned sounds like Android, since it's not limited by hardware or software limitations.
met3ora said:
Well right now the iPhone has a sizable market share and is tailored to the average user, no?
And I think the OS that is capable of running the things you mentioned sounds like Android, since it's not limited by hardware or software limitations.
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But it's also not standard, or well-used. You're banking on Android becoming something as commonplace as Java did so quickly in the 90s. I think that's pretty much a long shot.
Plus, you have to consider code re-use and platform diversity. Today, Windows, Windows Mobile, and WindowsCE is still the target to beat when it comes to marketing plans, project expenses, customer familiarity, legacy product integration, and a host of other considerations.
Java offered platform independence at a time when the WWW was just beginning to burgeon. Had it been developed even 5 years earlier, it probably would not have been successful.
There is no comparable event on the horizon that is likely to make Android the dominant mobile OS. There's just not enough incentive to jump to it.
As someone that sells cell phones for a living (at least while in college), I will give my perspective on what I see and hear from customers, as well, my personal feelings as a multiplatform smart phone user...
Background: I offer multiple HTC devices... the Diamond, TyTN II, Touch Dual, Touch, and S621. I offer 3, soon to be 4, Blackberries, the 8310 Curve(2mp camera, GPS, EDGE), the Pearl 8110 (Same as Curver), and the 8820 (No camera, GPS, EDGE, and WiFi), and shortly the new Curve 8900 (3.2mp camera, GPS, WiFi, and EDGE).
Customer: The majority of my customers go with the Blackberry Curve/Pearl(More Curves than Pearls). They like them for the ease of use, in terms of easy app downloading and use, easy e-mail, easy internet, easy customization with a new theme. They are mostly concerned with rock solid stability, battery life, and easy to use. Business ability plays a very small role in the choice, actually, of a BB.
Helping with business related aspects has more to do with selling a customer on a smartphone than any one brand. Also, as I am on a small tangant, BB has done a lot as of late to make their phones less business centric and more mainstream, and have been very successful with this.
As for customers that go with WinMo based devices they don't mind a slightly more complicated OS. They are a bit more tech savy. They don't really care so much about the phone's camera, as they already have a 12mp digital camera for that. The are looking more at cutting edge, from the touchscreen, to the ability to do anything with the phone. They do get frustrated with how slow out of the box the HTC can be, but they don't mind, because they are likely flashing a ROM anyways, or they don't care because it gives them more abilities out of the box than a BB will ever be able to do with every app loaded onto it.
So what does this all mean in terms of longevity? Well, a couple things...
1. WinMo has a much brighter future than BB. In 3 years, WinMo devices are going to be faster and more capable out of the box. BB's will gain in speed, but they will still be limited to essentially an 'os' inside an OS. Palm ran into the problem BB is fastly approaching, they can't improve on what they have anymore since their ceiling is already reached. That is a huge benefit WinMo has over BB, and the others, except for maybe Android, it's ceiling is much higher in terms of absoluter ability.
2. It means that whoever developes a UI for WinMo, whether it be microsoft, HTC, or someone else, that is as friendly as the BB OS will make a killing!
If I was doing a degree in computing, with my focus geared toward mobile platforms I would focus on WinMo/ Windows CE... I would also make sure my JAVA was up-to-date, as I don't see dumbphones going away anytime soon.
As for my personal preference as someone that owns both a TyTN II and a BB 8110 Pearl, I prefer WinMo. I like it because I am not affraid of technology, can customize it ten fold more than the BB, have a more complete web experience, and so forth. Basically, I prefer capability over all other aspects. And like I said already, while WinMo may lack in ease of use and out of box speed right now, it will catch up and prove to be superior.
NOTE: If, and this is a huge IF given Apple's track record, the iPhone OS becomes available for other platforms, it will explode and take over a huge share of the market, I don't think 50%, but it will be one of the top 2 smartphone OS.
pjcforpres, so you're saying that Windows Mobile will start becoming the more prominent OS in the long run?
The release of Windows Mobile 6.5 (I haven't tried it, I've since moved on to a Nokia N95 from my Tilt) looks like it's finally giving a facelift to the standard ugly interface we're all used to.
My concern with WinMo is the lack of an built-in application store. Admittedly I haven't kept up as much as I should on that, but I believe MS has one in the works to be shipped with 6.5? If so and if this takes off, I'd probably look to move into that field.
Has anyone had experience programming in XCode (iPhone/Mac OSX) and can tell how difficult it is compared to other languages such as Java?
pjcforpres said:
As someone that sells cell phones for a living (at least while in college), I will give my perspective on what I see and hear from customers, as well, my personal feelings as a multiplatform smart phone user...
Background: I offer multiple HTC devices... the Diamond, TyTN II, Touch Dual, Touch, and S621. I offer 3, soon to be 4, Blackberries, the 8310 Curve(2mp camera, GPS, EDGE), the Pearl 8110 (Same as Curver), and the 8820 (No camera, GPS, EDGE, and WiFi), and shortly the new Curve 8900 (3.2mp camera, GPS, WiFi, and EDGE).
Customer: The majority of my customers go with the Blackberry Curve/Pearl(More Curves than Pearls). They like them for the ease of use, in terms of easy app downloading and use, easy e-mail, easy internet, easy customization with a new theme. They are mostly concerned with rock solid stability, battery life, and easy to use. Business ability plays a very small role in the choice, actually, of a BB.
Helping with business related aspects has more to do with selling a customer on a smartphone than any one brand. Also, as I am on a small tangant, BB has done a lot as of late to make their phones less business centric and more mainstream, and have been very successful with this.
As for customers that go with WinMo based devices they don't mind a slightly more complicated OS. They are a bit more tech savy. They don't really care so much about the phone's camera, as they already have a 12mp digital camera for that. The are looking more at cutting edge, from the touchscreen, to the ability to do anything with the phone. They do get frustrated with how slow out of the box the HTC can be, but they don't mind, because they are likely flashing a ROM anyways, or they don't care because it gives them more abilities out of the box than a BB will ever be able to do with every app loaded onto it.
So what does this all mean in terms of longevity? Well, a couple things...
1. WinMo has a much brighter future than BB. In 3 years, WinMo devices are going to be faster and more capable out of the box. BB's will gain in speed, but they will still be limited to essentially an 'os' inside an OS. Palm ran into the problem BB is fastly approaching, they can't improve on what they have anymore since their ceiling is already reached. That is a huge benefit WinMo has over BB, and the others, except for maybe Android, it's ceiling is much higher in terms of absoluter ability.
2. It means that whoever developes a UI for WinMo, whether it be microsoft, HTC, or someone else, that is as friendly as the BB OS will make a killing!
If I was doing a degree in computing, with my focus geared toward mobile platforms I would focus on WinMo/ Windows CE... I would also make sure my JAVA was up-to-date, as I don't see dumbphones going away anytime soon.
As for my personal preference as someone that owns both a TyTN II and a BB 8110 Pearl, I prefer WinMo. I like it because I am not affraid of technology, can customize it ten fold more than the BB, have a more complete web experience, and so forth. Basically, I prefer capability over all other aspects. And like I said already, while WinMo may lack in ease of use and out of box speed right now, it will catch up and prove to be superior.
NOTE: If, and this is a huge IF given Apple's track record, the iPhone OS becomes available for other platforms, it will explode and take over a huge share of the market, I don't think 50%, but it will be one of the top 2 smartphone OS.
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Typing on my blackstone right now so will make it short. .
I definately do -not- think the WinMo OS will thrive, nor completely go out of the picture. If they manage to increase their user experience and out of the box situation it might, but I don't see this happening anywhere untill Windows 7.
Looking at your statement about WinMo users I have to completely disagree with you. The biggest share of people that have a WinMo device do nothing with customization at all, nor are they tech-savvy people. The thing that influences phone sales the most is still the outside (Features, looks, branding) before software, looking at the sale figures of let's say the Omnia vs the iPhone in Germany says it aswell. The majority of people that bought a iPhone (average-users which present the highest share) didn't go to the Apple store because they read about the fluid OS it's using, but cause it's from Apple and they had been using an iPod for so long. The biggest reason the iPhone had such a succes was cause of Apple's image in customer-friendly electronics and as a status symbol. (Say all you want, marketing-technical this is the case.)
Most likely if we actually look at Apple's record, theres nearly no chance the iPhone OS will go multi-platform. They've always been extremely tidy-up on enforcing patents and even try to go against x86 hardware Mac OS users.
Fingers getting tired now so that's all for now
pjcforpres said:
I would also make sure my JAVA was up-to-date, as I don't see dumbphones going away anytime soon.
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Lol..
Edit: What about Palm's WEB OS???
windows will be thrive i think
This is an interesting discussion. I'm a great fun of the sloppy open OS windows offers for the same reason I dwell on these forums. You asked about an appstore, which wm6.5 has (not functional yet because of the betaness). But I really don't think that's something to base future predictions on, because everyone is catching up to that right now, I do believe nokia has an appstore as well.
As for the thriving osses, I'm quite certain that the general smartfone market share is and will be increasing. People seem to pay EUR 600 to get the newest "dumb" phones, for the same money they can have a smartphone that looks good as well. I do see apple's one provider provider as limiting for Iphone OS as a lot of people are satisfied with the deals providers proir their newest phone deal and getting a simunlocked one is quite a hassle. I have had some big discussions over people who are buying what os, and they seem to believe that the general population thinks of an iphone when they think of a multifunctional phone. That being said I'm looking very much forward to windows 7 as I think it will deal with a lot of the currents uglyness and sloppyness of the phones. It will however mean that the newer WM will be "more" closed than before, but I'll guess we will manage , 12
Right now 3 OS'es are leading the pack: WM, Apples and Symbians.
Symbians will probably continue to prosper since they are still by far the easiest to familiarize devices you can ever have. But I'm sure, until symbian figures out a way to be as pretty as an iPhone or as flexible as WM.. they will slowly come out of the picture like Palm and BBs.
As long as Steve Jobs stays alive, apple will get bigger. They may not call it iPhones anymore but it's gonna be something hip and cool that would certainly appeal to the younger/new generation market.
WM will never die. As long as you have Windows PC's, you cannot kill WM. And right now, WM6.5 is heading the right track.. it maintained the flexibility and power of WM and added an iPhone feel to it. I have no doubt that WM7 will definitely make everything better. Much like what they did from XP to Vista.
Android? Hmm.. until they show more devices that can use it, yeah maybe. But I'd stick to WM and iPhones if you wanna develop mobile apps.
antrak:
I understand what you are saying about marketing and all of that. The success of the iPhone is largely due to marketing and familiarity. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, brands and locks down their technology like Apple does. And the branding they gave the iPhone was ease of use, speed, and customization out of the box.
WinMo devices don't have that as easily out of the box. Overall, you can do more with a WinMo device than an iPhone, but it takes more to get the WinMo device to do it.
And it has been my experience, with WinMo and BB as my only 2 smart phone platforms, that the more tech savvy people go with the WinMo device, and those looking for a simpler more straight forward out of the box experience go with the BB.
At the OP:
Yes, I am saying that in the long run, WinMo will be the overall leader. Just as you see Windows based PCs as the dominant computer in the market, you will see WinMo devices as the dominant smart phone in the market. The only drawbacks WinMo has can be fixed rather easily... The lack of speed is something this community has already addressed and fixed. My TyTN II flies! The touch friendliness is being address as we speak, with Touchflo from HTC and TouchWiz from Samsung and WinMo 6.5/7.0 from Microsoft. I believe that Microsoft coming up with the solution is more likely, and is more important than for HTC or Samsung or some other company to come up with their own UI solution. Also, fingers crossed, better graphics drivers would go a long way in helping out WinMo devices, especially HTC devices.
Also, note that WinMo syncs up much better with all those home PC's than any other platform. People looking to get a smart phone are buying them with the idea that they can use the phone in place of their computer for many regular day tasks. I use my TyTN II to manage the small business I am starting up, my work emails, my schedule, school work, and so much more.
I also have a BB Pearl, and as much as I loved it's simplicity, it wasn't powerful enough or integrated enough with my home PC to cut it. BB is great at making a rock solid idiot proof smart phone that allows you to communicate with ease, and they are doing more for multimedia. But BB is approaching it's limitations as it is an 'os' inside and OS.
WebOS looks amazing, and I am sure it will run amazing as well. Palm does good work, for the most part, but they are similar to BB. The new WebOS is a step above, and will have a higher ceiling than BBs current ceiling for future ability. But it is still going to fall short of WinMo, Android, etc. in long term totality because it is too isolated, just like BB.
The advantages WinMo, and the iPhone as well, have over everyone else is that they have full computer based OS backing them up. WinMo has Windows PCs, the iPhone has Macs. As Apple develops the iPhone OS more and more, it will sync better and better with Macs, and do more and more.
As Android handsets become more plentiful, the development will pick up pace, and it will gain a following, especially with Google backing them. And their is the potential they will sync up multiplatform better than anyone else just because they are open source.
WinMo will gain in out of the box speed and UI friendliness. It will probably be a year for WinMo 7.0 to come out and catch up in speed and UI. But WinMo is already ahead of the game when it comes to everything else. Just look at the market and what is available for WinMo devices compared to the other OS.
WinMo will always sync better with Windows PCs than any other OS. As Apple works on it, the iPhone will sync better with Macs than any other OS. And as time goes on, technology advances, and so forth, the smart phone market will follow the home computer market. WinMo will be the leader, Apple will be second, and the others will still hold on to the market, but they won't ever eclipse WinMo and Apple once the market settles.
Basically, I see the smart phone market as a developing market right now. I don't think today’s numbers and trends are very significant when you are trying to size up long term trends. I believe long term trends, and business school agrees here, will follow several factors, specifically for smart phones those work out like such:
1. Usability: This has to do with speed, UI ease of use, and compatibility with other technologies.
2. Price: The more expensive, the less likely it is to "boom" or "tip" or any of those nice catch phrases.
3. Stickiness: Aka, cool factor, fun factor, hip factor, everyone must have it factor.
I see WinMo, in the long term, leading all others when it comes to usability, as it is a familiar platform that will sync better with already established technologies. It will also be competively priced, except for BB, I don't believe anyone else is as cheap. And stickiness... well the iPhone has that right now, but with proper marketing and better UI, WinMo will catch back up. And FYI, I believe sticky wise it goes 1.iPhone 2. BB Curve 3. G1 4. HTC of sort.
I am rambling and all over the place a bit by now, and since I am not going to edit, I will recap to bring it all together.
Based on my personal experience with WinMo and BB, as a salesman and an end user, as well my knowledge of the market, I believe WinMo devices have the brightest future. Of course, WinMo devices have to overcome their out of the box lack of speed and UI friendliness, but I don't see those as insurmountable obstacles. Rather, I see those as all the more reason to focus on the WinMo platform, as there is going to be a demand for talented programmers capable of achieving that goal, as well, capable of taking advantage of the wide breadth of abilities that WinMo has.
I see where you're going in terms of integration and its benefits towards the future. I guess I'm being a litle short-sighted here, as now I feel the basic smartphone user *isn't* actually integrating.
Admittedly I'm looking primarily (and that's a shortfall of mine) at my own demographic, which is college kids looking for trendiness and wow factor. But I'm willing to bet that if you asked 20 college kids with WinMo or iPhones, you'd find 5 or less of them are actually syncing them to their computer.
As of right now, I believe the general public isn't tieing in their phone with their computer as most, if not all of us on this forum are used to doing. So in terms of integration being a big selling point, I don't see the general public looking at that as highly as us as more tech-savvy people do. Now, I DO believe that when we get far enough in to the future that integration WILL be a major selling point, but I believe the near future still seperates phone from computer.
The question of what attracts people to a phone is a rather interesting one. This is another assumption I'm making, but I believe what draws people to the iPhone is part trendy factor, part status symbol and part "you can do so many things with it so easily". I'm definitely open to being proven wrong, and I guess my argument comes from pure assumption and a bit of knowledge on how the college-kid's-brain functions, but I do see the average college kid as a fairly accurate representation of the general public.
It may look from all my posts that I'm very pro-iPhone, which isn't necessarily true. We can all agree that Apple has done many things right with their phone. I'm just interested in how it gained its popularity. If one were to see just how popular it was going to become and jumped on developing apps on it very early, there is a giant profit to be made here.
That's what I'm looking for-- what will peak in the coming years?
met3ora said:
I see where you're going in terms of integration and its benefits towards the future. I guess I'm being a litle short-sighted here, as now I feel the basic smartphone user *isn't* actually integrating.
Admittedly I'm looking primarily (and that's a shortfall of mine) at my own demographic, which is college kids looking for trendiness and wow factor. But I'm willing to bet that if you asked 20 college kids with WinMo or iPhones, you'd find 5 or less of them are actually syncing them to their computer.
As of right now, I believe the general public isn't tieing in their phone with their computer as most, if not all of us on this forum are used to doing. So in terms of integration being a big selling point, I don't see the general public looking at that as highly as us as more tech-savvy people do. Now, I DO believe that when we get far enough in to the future that integration WILL be a major selling point, but I believe the near future still seperates phone from computer.
The question of what attracts people to a phone is a rather interesting one. This is another assumption I'm making, but I believe what draws people to the iPhone is part trendy factor, part status symbol and part "you can do so many things with it so easily". I'm definitely open to being proven wrong, and I guess my argument comes from pure assumption and a bit of knowledge on how the college-kid's-brain functions, but I do see the average college kid as a fairly accurate representation of the general public.
It may look from all my posts that I'm very pro-iPhone, which isn't necessarily true. We can all agree that Apple has done many things right with their phone. I'm just interested in how it gained its popularity. If one were to see just how popular it was going to become and jumped on developing apps on it very early, there is a giant profit to be made here.
That's what I'm looking for-- what will peak in the coming years?
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I agree with you in general here... I am looking into the future as much as possible as that is what you seem to be asking about... "what will peak in the coming years?"
I also agree that in general, the average user isn't syncing their phone with their computer and are looking more towards ease of use. That is why I tried, and maybe failed, to emphasis that WinMo needs to improve that aspect in order for it to pop as I believe it will.
WinMo as it is right now is not very user friendly. The UI is outdated and not touch friendly. Out of the box the phones are slow and cumbersome for the "trendy" market.
But in 3 years, I don't believe that will be true anymore of WinMo devices. I believe they will increase in speed, and thus useability. I believe the UI will become more friendly to the end consumer, especially the low tech end user that WinMo seems to miss out on.
This isn't to say there are no "non-techy" users of WinMo, there are plenty, probably more than are super techy like us. But even those "non-techy" WinMo users have a bit more tech knowledge than your average BB user.
Basically, what I am getting at is that in the long term, 3 years from now when you are graduating, 10 years from now, and so forth, WinMo has a brighter future than other platforms for the very reason it will integrate better, and its current downsides are easily fixed compared to other OS downsides.
Pocket PC's are not good with cameras, they don't have good battery life, 65 colors and no multitouch, not apps preinstalled, difficut for the average user, they don't handle games right (they are good games out there but they are old),no visibility under sun and on top of that the new models can't handle non converted videos (thanks god I have Asus P535)...
That's why the public doesn't like Windows Mobile. And 6.5 - Wow transperent bars and new start menu - nothing at all. The hope for Windows Mobile is Nvidia Tegra.. !
One thing I have trouble with is gauging how long it takes for things to happen. WinMo is behind on UI's, true, but is trying to be saved by 3rd party UI's like TouchFlo and TouchWiz. I think a lot of the problem is that WinMo DOES have the reputation of being slow and not user friendly. Of course, this reputation is due to the out of the box experience, which is very crucial.
But how long will it take for people to be comfortable with WinMo? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most people are now buying WinMo phones that have custom UI's on top of them (HTC, Samsung, etc), and I think this will really help in the revival of WM as a "good" OS.
Now, Android is starting out with the initial impression that it is touch friendly, fast and customizable. WinMo is gonna need to dig itself out of the hole that is its own stereotypes, and I believe Android has the advantage BECAUSE of its initial impression.
Thoughts?
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/57664
Watch out, iPhone—Android's nipping at your heels.
Researchers at Gartner (via AppleInsider) are predicting that the global market share for Google's Android mobile OS could overtake the iPhone's in a little over two years, with Android poised to leapfrog Apple into the No. 2 spot.
That would leave the iPhone in the No. 3 position—right where it is now, behind BlackBerry and Nokia's Symbian OS, according to Gartner. The industry researchers believe that by 2012, Research in Motion (the company behind the BlackBerry) will have lost 7 percent of its market share, causing it to slip into fifth place (behind even Windows Mobile). Android, meanwhile, will get a 12.9-percent boost to become the No. 2 smartphone platform in the world, with Symbian still safe in the No. 1 spot (with a dominating, although dwindling, 39 percent of the global market).
Those are just analyst predictions, of course, and two years is an eternity in the wireless world; after all, two years ago today, we were still getting used to the first iPhone.
That said, I think the gist of Gartner's prediction—that Android is poised to take the wireless market by storm—is spot on, and we've seen evidence of that in the past few months and weeks.
Google's open-source Android platform—which boasts one of the finest touchscreen interfaces out there, iPhone included—came slow out of the gates in fall 2008 with the solid, if uninspiring T-Mobile G1. We had to wait almost a year for the next Android phone in the U.S., but we finally got one this past August with the G1's follow-up, the HTC-made myTouch 3G (also on T-Mobile).
Soon after, what started as a trickle quickly became a flood. Sprint trotted out its first Android phone, the eye-catching, touchscreen HTC Hero, and then T-Mobile followed suit with the Motorola Cliq, its third Android handset ... followed by the Samsung Behold II just a few days ago. On Tuesday, Verizon Wireless announced it would launch a pair of Android phones before the end of the year, while Sprint announced its second Android phone—the Samsung Moment—a day later. Oh, and now there's rumors that Dell wants in on the Android action, with a new handset possible slated for iPhone carrier AT&T.
Let's see, that's ... one, two, three, four ... five new Android phones in in the past few months, with two more—and possibly even a third—due by the end of the year, from two (or maybe three) different manufacturers and three (possibly four) carriers. Some will be better than others, but consumers will have plenty of models (and carriers) from which to choose.
Of course, a bunch of new phones on the market doesn't mean diddly unless someone buys them, and for now, Apple has a solid 10.8- versus 1.6-percent lead over Android in terms of global smartphone market share. But Apple is the only company making iPhones, while the open-source (and high-quality) Android platform is available to all manufacturers and carriers—and from what we've been seeing, they're taking the ball and running with it.
I phone killa!
never touched an iphone and probly never will.
phatmanxxl said:
never touched an iphone and probly never will.
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Cant bash it tell you try it. There really not bad if you have little ambition to MOD. They update all the time which is nice for an average joe user but that sucks if you MOD them because apple is always closing the holes that are hacked. I still have my 2g 16gb Itouch and its freaking SWEET!
unless android devices leap away from qualcomm chipset, i'm not sure about the end user satisfaction
i've tried quite a few qualcomm based devices, some non-smartphones as well, and i have to say they all suck compared to non-qualcomm based devices, sucky multimedia, sucky network performance!
try htc diamond & i-mate 8150 side by side, you'll will know what i'm talking about
X-i-phoner said:
Cant bash it tell you try it. There really not bad if you have little ambition to MOD. They update all the time which is nice for an average joe user but that sucks if you MOD them because apple is always closing the holes that are hacked. I still have my 2g 16gb Itouch and its freaking SWEET!
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I got nothing against iphones really. im sure if I got to use one for a day I'd probly like it. But being on T-mobile for over over 5 years I tend to only pay attention to T-mo and At&t phones.
I'm sure once android spreads among the other carriers it will be huge. I can easily see android being in the top 3 with RIM and symbian.
phatmanxxl said:
I'm sure once android spreads among the other carriers it will be huge. I can easily see android being in the top 3 with RIM and symbian.
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Agreed, I can also see android doing the same stuff apple is now too.
Back in the early days of the PC when it was Apple vs IBM, IBM won because they licensed their architecture to various manufactures which were then able to make 100% Compatible IBM clones. Apple on the other hand insisted that it keep manufacturing in house, and look what happened.
~20 years later we may see history repeat itself.
You can't assume that apple is going for world domination. Their past successes have been based entirely off the hippie/artsie/faggie crowd, which they are likely to hold on to no matter what anyone else does.
The reason for their *temporary* position in the smartphone business is simple; they happened to be in the right place at the right time... and very lucky. A few years ago, palm was in a position to dominate the smartphone market, but they dragged their feet and allowed ugly-as-the-1970's RIM to capture the business user market. Palm *used to* have the business market, and even had a (at the time) very slick and colorful UI with touch screen and more features than you could shake a stick at, and at a time when RIM had clunky black-and-white displays, no graphics to speak of, and that stupid roller wheel. So at a time when a smartphone only really made sense to a business user, palm had devices that were actually quite attractive to just about everybody, but they stagnated rather than taking advantage of what they had, which left them in a very weak state when apple showed up to take the *entire* non-business smartphone market -- right at the time when it started making sense for *everybody* to have a smartphone.
So right before 'droid showed up, the smartphone market was severely skewed... on one hand, you had RIM with all the business market, on the other hand, you had apple with all the pleasure market. Android though, has the potential to be everything for everybody, and by everybody I mean google and the OHA, phone manufacturers, carriers, and even users.
If their computer business is any indication, apple isn't about to drop their prices to anything sensible -- they're still sitting at about FOUR TIMES what it would cost for generic hardware. For whatever reason, this appeals to the hippie/artsie/faggie crowd, that, along with the shinyness... MEANING: there are going to be TONS of manufacturers wielding android, COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER regarding prices. Which is a great thing. It means that we can look forward to very inexpensive 'droid devices while the likes of apple price themselves out of the market. Even now, the current i-phony is about $200 CDN more than Dream or Magic -- and don't give any crap that its "better" -- it does, after all, run their crap software.
Somebody said symbian? The fact that the world's cheapest mobile phone manufacturer wants to call their crap proprietary firmware by some name doesn't make it a dominating factor in anyone's opinion. Its a simple matter... nokia phones are dirt cheap -- without exception (that I am aware of), every provider gives them away for FREE to anybody who signs up for a contract.... since many people already HAVE a phone that they want to use and the carrier forces them into the contract anyways, they get a free phone that may never even get removed from the box. In fact, I have a BOX full of them myself, more of them than any other phone, and yet not a single one of them has so much as been turned on. And yet it counts as a sale in favor of "symbian". So by my math, about half the mobile phones delivered are the "free" ones that come with the contract.
lbcoder said:
Its a simple matter... nokia phones are dirt cheap -- without exception (that I am aware of),.
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http://www.nokiausa.com/buy-online?CMP=KNC-SEM_001&site=Google&device=BuyOnline
The n97 and n900 are sweet phones. Nokias market is dominating in china and japan. Many other places dont get to see all the cool stuff Noika puts out because Nokia doesnt need to advertise it anywhere else. My little bro got the N95 developer edition the day it came out, He still has it and it is still really advanced compared to most phones.
I doubt Android is gonna be used in the business market..the email client is wack, its gonna serious overhaul to compete. I went through a blackberry phase, its great as far a communication goes and by far the best damn keyboards ever. I see Android as more of a entertainment and social phone and I'm sure that's the market they're going for especially with the cliq. Ahem, move over sidekick and iphone.
phatmanxxl said:
I doubt Android is gonna be used in the business market..the email client is wack, its gonna serious overhaul to compete. I went through a blackberry phase, its great as far a communication goes and by far the best damn keyboards ever. I see Android as more of a entertainment and social phone and I'm sure that's the market they're going for especially with the cliq. Ahem, move over sidekick and iphone.
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Two things about your prediction...
1. Companies can have more input as to what goes into their business phones.
Imagine my company XYZ starts a contract for the carrier to provide a specific hardware/cellular platform. I can then take that hardware platform and load my customized Android platform onto it. What company wouldn't want that level of control over their business assets? You certainly can't get that with RIM.
2. The carriers, more than anyone, decide what functions a particular phone is marketed towards. From a financial and support perspective, what carrier wouldn't want to have a single OS for all device types and just load in specific apps to cater to specific functions? (Warning: Pie in the sky opinion follows.) Need a business phone? Here is our business suite on our business hardware. Want a gamer device? Here is our game hardware with our game suite. Support would be simplified because under the hood it all works very similarly.
And my prediction...
You will see business class Android devices much sooner than you think. Just because they have not been announced yet does not mean that they are not already in the works. It is a smart move for Google to market towards the prosumers first and businesses later. Let the prosumers work out the kinks and storm the business market later with your well tested and hardened OS. Basically, we (the devs here mainly) are doing most of the work for them... (Queue Adam Sandler) FOR FREEEEEEEE!
The only thing the iPhone has against the G1 is the fact that its thinner, but now we have the MyTouch which runs Android and is also thin...Suck it Apple!
phatmanxxl said:
...and by far the best damn keyboards ever.
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You actually *like* RIM keyboards? I have to use a couple of RIM devices for work (as a software developer -- they stay on my desk full time)... a 9000 (buttons) and a 9530 (retarded clicky-touchscreen). The keyboards on them both are absolute CRAP. EVERY button besides letters (that includes punctuation) require some extra button to be pressed, and that extra button is so close to the edge of the thing that you can hardly get to it. And their touchscreen keyboard? You have to touchscreen it once to highlight the "key", remove your finger to make sure that its selected, and go back to CLICK the screen -- usually need to click it 2 or 3 times before it actually "takes"... and no it isn't a hardware defect since the SIMULATOR does the exact same thing!
I see Android as more of a entertainment and social phone and I'm sure that's the market they're going for especially with the cliq. Ahem, move over sidekick and iphone.
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That may be YOUR USE/OBJECTIVE, and/or the use/objective of certain vendors *at the moment*, but android is an *operating system* and not just the crap software you have installed on it, nor is it restricted to the hardware you have it installed on.... for example, you can install X operating system on something you have plugged into the TV set in your living room and use it for games and videos, you can install the same X operating system on the computer you have on your desk at work, or, you can install the same X operating system on a server handling secure financial transactions within a major international bank's data center.... Android is great because it has the flexibility of being a general purpose operating system rather than a "feature" operating system as is the case for RIM (centered around their email client), or i-phony (centered around their music player).
Now with a general purpose operating system, you also have the flexibility of serving multiple needs. Take the guy who would need something that has the function of a RIM for work. Why would he want to have a second device for playing sudoku and listening to music on the subway ride home? And a third device for navigating on a road trip he and his family decide to take when they go on vacation? I see so many people holding BOTH a RIM and an i-phony and flipping between them because neither will do what the other does as well as it does it. Except now android can and *does* do what BOTH of them do *as well* as they BOTH do it.... and then some.
You need security/VPN? Work email/push IMAP? We've got that! You want music? Games? Navigation? A good web browsing experience?
What does RIM have on Android right now? Answer: nothing at all.
What does apple have on Android right now? Answer: nothing technical, there might be one or two applications you like that haven't been written for 'droid yet, but that's it.
Can 'droid handle the 'business use' case *right now*? Yes.
lbcoder said:
You actually *like* RIM keyboards? I have to use a couple of RIM devices for work (as a software developer -- they stay on my desk full time)... a 9000 (buttons) and a 9530 (retarded clicky-touchscreen). The keyboards on them both are absolute CRAP. EVERY button besides letters (that includes punctuation) require some extra button to be pressed, and that extra button is so close to the edge of the thing that you can hardly get to it. And their touchscreen keyboard? You have to touchscreen it once to highlight the "key", remove your finger to make sure that its selected, and go back to CLICK the screen -- usually need to click it 2 or 3 times before it actually "takes"... and no it isn't a hardware defect since the SIMULATOR does the exact same thing!
That may be YOUR USE/OBJECTIVE, and/or the use/objective of certain vendors *at the moment*, but android is an *operating system* and not just the crap software you have installed on it, nor is it restricted to the hardware you have it installed on.... for example, you can install X operating system on something you have plugged into the TV set in your living room and use it for games and videos, you can install the same X operating system on the computer you have on your desk at work, or, you can install the same X operating system on a server handling secure financial transactions within a major international bank's data center.... Android is great because it has the flexibility of being a general purpose operating system rather than a "feature" operating system as is the case for RIM (centered around their email client), or i-phony (centered around their music player).
Now with a general purpose operating system, you also have the flexibility of serving multiple needs. Take the guy who would need something that has the function of a RIM for work. Why would he want to have a second device for playing sudoku and listening to music on the subway ride home? And a third device for navigating on a road trip he and his family decide to take when they go on vacation? I see so many people holding BOTH a RIM and an i-phony and flipping between them because neither will do what the other does as well as it does it. Except now android can and *does* do what BOTH of them do *as well* as they BOTH do it.... and then some.
You need security/VPN? Work email/push IMAP? We've got that! You want music? Games? Navigation? A good web browsing experience?
What does RIM have on Android right now? Answer: nothing at all.
What does apple have on Android right now? Answer: nothing technical, there might be one or two applications you like that haven't been written for 'droid yet, but that's it.
Can 'droid handle the 'business use' case *right now*? Yes.
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lol u tell him
but IMO blackberry devices are very visually appealing. i think the sprint hero, samsung moment, moto cliq, LGs first android, samsung glaxy and lite version all look ugly.
and i like some of the apps apple have. i just want to see a completed multiplayer fps on android.
WM is following iPhone and Android is creating a new market. iPhone is too heavy with the iTune and paid apps as well.
Love my Android G2. Open platform is what we need
I really wish that people would learn how to discuss Android on its own merits instead of CONSTANTLY comparing it to iPhone.
So you think Android is going to do well, that's fantastic, why not talk about that instead of saying that it's going to be better than iPhone?
The reasoning is simple... pride. And money.
Android isn't just something that is *there to use*. Many of us have a lot of time invested in the platform and it not only feels good for it to be successful, it is also financially rewarding. i-phony is right now the most recognizable mobile phone, so it is naturally the target to BEAT.
chefgon said:
I really wish that people would learn how to discuss Android on its own merits instead of CONSTANTLY comparing it to iPhone.
So you think Android is going to do well, that's fantastic, why not talk about that instead of saying that it's going to be better than iPhone?
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I'm talking about the pearl, curve and curve 2. well, I really like those keyboards, just my opinion. I never had any problems using them. Microsoft/Danger abandoned project pink (supposed to be the new danger os) sidekicks are rumored to be phased out anyway. Also with the major data outage, they have no access to their contacts, t-mail and calender for almost a month now, a lot of those customers I'm sure will move to Android.
and until corporate and business owners start handing out Google phones instead of blackberrys, RIM does have one up over Android
Hi XDA-Samsung Users,
I've been a member of XDA since Jan last year. I went from owning a Nexus One to a Samsung Galaxy S i9000. The reason for the change was for the better specs and superior hardware of the Samsung Galaxy.
The phone is an incredible piece of machinery, but is severely hampered by the modifications that Samsung makes to the Android OS. I admit that the codec support within TouchWiz is impressive, but too much of the core framework of the phone is inefficient and sluggish.
Even using the latest release of unofficial firmware Samsung, Android 2.2.1 (JPY), there is still the occasional hang and the missing RAM (which is there somewhere, but not for user applications).
Samsung is mostly to blame, but there is also a quality control element that Google should be responsible for.
I have prepared an open letter that I sent to Android via Google Press and then forwarded on to Samsung for their reference. This were all through publicly available channels so will have to filter through customer service centers and the like.
I'm not expecting much, Google appears to use Amazon's customer service approach, "No customer service is good customer service".
But would like to post it here to hopefully get it out into the wilderness.
I tweeted it here http://twitter.com/#!/ibproud/status/27528781828722688
and would appreciate if you agreed with the content to retweet it. Hopefully it should give it a bit more weight.
It would be interesting to get the communities feedback on how mature they believe Android is.
Do they need to keep trying to make everyone happy or can they start to use the weight of their OS to get manufacturers to align the user experience?
Dear Android Team,
I am writing this letter to air my frustrations and to hopefully get some peace of mind that your strategy for Android will resolve some of the main issues plaguing the platform.
I have now been with Android for over 12 months. I used to be an iPhone user, but couldn’t stand the walled garden that Apple put me in. I couldn’t download directly to the phone, replace the messaging app or sync wirelessly. I went to Android because I wanted the freedom to use my phone more as a desktop replacement than as a phone/mp3 player.
When I joined the Android family (January 2010), I started with the Google Nexus One. I was so keen to get into the Android community I didn’t even wait for it to be on sale in Australia to get it, thus I hit eBay and bought it outright.
I was very pleased with the platform but could still see a few rough edges around the Operating System. It had the usability I was looking for but was lacking the polish I had grown use to with Apple. There was good news on the horizon with an Éclair update that would give the already beautiful phone a nudge in the right direction. As I was in Australia and the phone wasn’t here yet, I had to push the update through myself, after seeing how easy this was and getting the feeling of being a little phone hacker, I was hooked, I started preaching Android to the masses. Australia is still building momentum for the platform and it’s taking some time. Most of the major carriers stock between 4-6 Android devices, most of which are low end or outdated in the overseas markets.
I follow all the key players in the industry through Twitter and have a majority of Google News trackers picking up articles with android related words. I have also now converted my Wife to Android (HTC Desire Z, also not available in Aus) and I picked up the Samsung Galaxy S and gave my sister the Nexus One. The problem I face now is that I’ve run out of money and can’t go out and buy a new Android phone just to be up to date with the latest Android OS (Gingerbread), this would also be the case for most consumers. The Nexus S is so similar to my current hardware that I must be able to leverage the extra performance from the update.
But alas, we reach the major problem with the platform. Fragmentation. I’m not referring to the Fragmentation of the various app stores and apps available based on different OS versions but more to the Fragmentation of the OS based on the custom skins and manufacturer update cycles. The open platform that is closed at 2 levels, Manufactures and Carriers. I will continue to buy my phones outright as it gives me the freedom and flexibility to upgrade my plans as better ones become available. This always guarantees that I’m free from the bloatware that is preloaded on most Carrier bought phones and free from 1 of the barriers to the true AOSP experience. The next barrier is one that is running rampant in the interwebs rumour mill at the moment and that’s manufacturer updates and in my case I refer to Samsung.
Samsung Galaxy S phones come loaded with Android 2.1, most of them internationally are running Android 2.2 and just recently as select group of the devices is getting Android 2.2.1. This is now a month after Android 2.3 was released. For Samsung I would consider this largely negligent, considering they had the opportunity to work with Google to build a Google Experience Phone (Nexus S). The specs of this phone are so similar to the Galaxy range that a port shouldn’t be too difficult. I understand that there are a lot of constraints and dependencies in the development cycle that could cause delays as well as manufacturers agendas (mostly in unit sales). It is great that Samsung have sold so many devices globally but at a cost of the user experience as well as potential damages to long term retention.
I understand the Open nature of Android and the push to encourage manufacturers to put there own spin on the platform, but Android is getting bigger and more mature, it doesn’t need to be High school girl bending to the whims and peer pressure from the carriers and manufacturers.
There are a team of Devs in Germany who are working to port CyanogenMod 7 (Gingerbread) to Galaxy S i9000, but these guys have now spent over four months just trying to get through Samsungs drivers. The team didn’t start just to customise the phone but to actually make the phone work properly, I of course refer to the RFS lag issue and Samsungs modification to the framework that slowed it down. The goal of the team is to maximise the potential of the hardware and operating system.
It would be great to see some muscle from Google thrown into the mix, there doesn’t need to be requirements dictated, but maybe ethics encouraged.
There seems to be a few options here:
- Encourage device manufacturers to share their drivers, if it is too sensitive to share at least work with the community to help them do it themselves.
- Start to break down the way the platform is customised so that way the manufactures (Samsung/HTC/Motorola) skin the platform can sit a layer above the core code, thus be a quick implementation/customisation to get their skins working.
- Get each manufacturer to offer the AOSP experience to advanced users. This can be done through an agreement between the user and manufacture that states this will void the warranty and have its own terms and conditions.
- This last one is a long stretch, but how about taking all the manufacturers drivers into a repository, the way Windows do updates. When a new Android version is developed the drivers can be updated or incorporated and be packaged out through the Android SDK.
I may be completely off the mark. I’m not a developer and couldn’t pretend to know what effort is involved at any stage of the process, from building Android to rolling it out into the latest and greatest phone. The one thing I am though is an End User, a person that wants my phone to do more, to get close to being a desktop replacement.
Maybe I’m also being a bit idealistic.
I hope the Android platform continues to flourish and for it to become the Windows of the mobile era.
Sincerely,
Irwin Proud
E: [email protected]
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It's really an excellent summary. Consider there're even more black sheeps out there. For example Sony Ericcson which ones recently made a statement like Android is their favourite Smartphone OS and left Symbian in Nokias hands.
But we found also the good ones like HTC, which every Manufacturer should have HTC as its Paragon concerning Android Software Development.
Great write-up; I agree 100%
I agree with your post fully, and concur that the Windows Phone 7 model for OS updates is more efficient, and strikes a happy medium between iOS and Android's approach to upgrades. However it is also more restrictive in terms of handset hardware limitations
I suppose the idea is that customers should vote with their wallets and buy from companies with good software and firmware support. The problem with that is a majority of phone users (android or otherwise) are technically savvy enough to take such support into consideration when looking at the latest and greatest fancy phone in a store. We could all buy the Nexus One or Nexus S only, but this too is restrictive to the customer as other phones offer more/different features
my 2 cents worth:
I agree on your points - but I'd skip the first few paragraphs if I were the one who write the letter. Other than that, thank you for making the effort.
What exactly are you hoping to achieve with this letter? Google has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that samsung don't want to update their phones. In these type of situations it's just better to vote with your wallet and buy another manufacturer's phone next time and let Samsung know why you don't want to use their phones in the future.
Writing letters like these is just a waste of time imho.
What Google should do?
Toss3 said:
What exactly are you hoping to achieve with this letter? Google has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that samsung don't want to update their phones. In these type of situations it's just better to vote with your wallet and buy another manufacturer's phone next time and let Samsung know why you don't want to use their phones in the future.
Writing letters like these is just a waste of time imho.
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Please allow me to politely disagree. Google can do a lot about this and they have done this also. When I say they have done this - I am talking about not having Market application on Android OSes which come on non-phone hardware.
Google should put similar restrictions for loosley coupled skins, upgradable drivers. I had been giving this a lot of thought lately. I will sum up my thoughts with above letter as above:-
i) Device manufacturer skinning - Google should mandate that it should be just another APK within AOSP and users should be given a choice to turn it off.
ii) Device Drivers - Google should mandate there should be a better way of installing device drivers - similar to what we have in MS Windows (MS Windows is an excellent model of how hardware device should be handled - this lead to the exponential growth Windows is enjoying now).
iii) Android OS Update - If Google can achieve the above two, then the choice to upgrade the OS should be at user discretion. Of course, Google should mandate that there is OTA availble as an option. And obviously this OTA would be served by Google, not by device manufacturers. This would also free up time, effort and cash spent by device manufacturers in upgrading the OS.
So this is in the best of interest of everybody.
These restrictions if put in place, would free us all from this phenomena of running outdated OS.
Not sure what ti say on this one. It's true that Samsung has failed on some levels, however I must say that this is the first phone that has allowed me to get to know so much about the internals of the Android OS.
Modifying kernels, ROM's, reading about different file-systems etc... it's not a thing for the common user but I expect the people on this forum to be interested in such things.
Ok, if Samsung had done it right, we may have discussed these things anyway but it would've drawn less attention as people would not be looking for solutions to their problems.
But of course we have to strive to quality for everyone and this letter may just open some people's eyes at both Google and Samsung.
Thank you so far for the feedback.
poundesville said:
my 2 cents worth:
I agree on your points - but I'd skip the first few paragraphs if I were the one who write the letter. Other than that, thank you for making the effort.
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Remember most members of XDA would be a cut above the average user. The reason this letter was written the way it was, was to demonstrate that I am a typical end user. Although I would consider myself leaning slightly to the more advanced side I wrote the letter based on a very general experience of the platform, an experience a lot of consumers would go through.
Toss3 said:
What exactly are you hoping to achieve with this letter? Google has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that samsung don't want to update their phones. In these type of situations it's just better to vote with your wallet and buy another manufacturer's phone next time and let Samsung know why you don't want to use their phones in the future.
Writing letters like these is just a waste of time imho.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What am I trying to achieve with this letter?
I really don’t know, but it helps to just get the thoughts out there.
With approximately 300,000 activations daily, I don’t think Android sees the true reflection of how their platform is received.
When the Galaxy range of phones was released in the US, they would have been seen as the closest thing to an iPhone that non-AT&T customers could get. So sales and activations shouldn’t be seen as the indicator of clever consumers or consumers wanting an open platform, but of consumers who wanted an iPhone but for the various reasons didn’t want to go with AT&T.
Remember: The international Samsung Galaxy is the only Android phone I know of that looks more like an iPhone than any other phone.
What I would really like to see is, that annually google will release a major version of Android. So V1, V2, V3, etc…. the mobile manufacturers commit to any minor or incremental updates per major version. So if Google says they are releasing Android 2.4 then they are saying to the manufacturer that this version will also work on any phone that currently supports v2.1 to v2.3.
As more and more people move to smartphones and tablets, more and more will we see hackers, spammers, botnets and so on attempt to access our devices. If we can’t have the latest updates that close any open holes then our phones become a huge liability.
Pierreken said:
Not sure what ti say on this one. It's true that Samsung has failed on some levels, however I must say that this is the first phone that has allowed me to get to know so much about the internals of the Android OS.
Modifying kernels, ROM's, reading about different file-systems etc... it's not a thing for the common user but I expect the people on this forum to be interested in such things.
Ok, if Samsung had done it right, we may have discussed these things anyway but it would've drawn less attention as people would not be looking for solutions to their problems.
But of course we have to strive to quality for everyone and this letter may just open some people's eyes at both Google and Samsung.
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Not really sure if Samsung has failed as such, but have put too much focus on unit sales rather than quality control and great user experience. They started releasing different iterations and modifications to the same phone without considering that each minor tweak to the hardware would mean more resources to develop updates and maintain each device.
I also agree that without Samsung I would know very little about linux filesystems, kernel and custom roms, but shouldn't all of these be more to push the phone above it's limits and not to just get it working properly?
There's nothing wrong with knowing the advanced stuff, however it shouldn't be a necessity.
The problem ironically is that Android is open source. I agree wit the letter above, but I can;t see how you can stop manufacturers doing what they want.
Also the Drivers being proprietary isn't going to change and device manufacturers aren't going to suddenly start releasing their closed driver sources.
Agreed Google should stand up and restrict the Skins to a single APK that can be removed, this would stop all the associated problems with HTC and Samsung skinning too deep in to the OS that it becomes impossible to remove it. The problem with that is, then any manufacturers APK will be installable on any phone. Which is something we know they don't want.
We already know Androids biggest downfall and so does Google. Fragmentation.
I believe once Google has the strong position they want and users demand Android when they buy a new phone, they will start to put their foot down and try to enforce standardisation across Manufacturers, but until they get to what they feel is that point, we're stuck.
Anyway much luck with the letter, I hope someone who matters get's to see it.
Logicalstep
A lot of people have been asking me this very difficult question: What is the future of Windows Mobile? Do you think it will die in a few years(about 2)? And other questions that are about the death of Windows Mobile. On this post I will say about my thoughts of the future of Windows Mobile.
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So I've made this article to say every thing I think about a very polemic topic: The death of Windows Mobile... For sure it won't die in 2 years, it will take a lot more...
The article is on my blog, feel free to share it every where you want, but remember to give the credits
http://developmentcloud.blogspot.com/2011/02/future-of-windows-mobile.html
Leave a comment about the topic and my article. Happy reading
PS: I've made this article at midnight, so it may contain some errors and crazy stuff
Windows Mobile without Sense for sure is pretty crappy
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Sorry to write this, but your statement is truly ridiculous, skip to very end of my post before you read rest, to understand why i said that.
As a matter of fact, death of wm started when HTC destroyed whole idea of PDA with its feeble, slow, but VERY popular devices(well..PDA's were made for work, HTC changed PDAs into just phones - popularity(money) rose, niche changed and this tendancy progresses now in absurdal way resulting with WP).
They just started to load their bloatware(manila,sense), in EXCHANGE for specs(and dpad/buttons), specifically. I know LOTS of people, that left WM platform just because of that, and even HD2 wasn't able to change that(FAR too late, too ridiculous, too buttonless, to expensive, etc, etc).
XDAdev forums took some part in whole process, imho(you NEED manila, you NEED sense - what a bull****).
HTC seem to be VERY happy after gigantic success of manila's, sense's resulting in destroying of many of old wm software developers(yes, by marketplace,my friend).
Finally, androidz and ridiculous iphone took rest.
95% of cooks i know and i respect would NEVER add manila, nor sense to their roms, as a matter of fact, actually most of them left wm platform already(well, rest bought...hd2, rich happy people mhmm.).
I will stay with my device(PDA with phone module, not HTC), as there is NO software i am using made for android, nor wp(sorry to say, old wm software is totally different league from actual promoted software, all about that).
So all i can say, have fun with your sense, twitter and facebook, but remember, there was something more few years ago, when future looked bright and good.
sorry for engrish, topic not suscribed(i have no nerves for that, you know, i am able to make skin for hs++ with functionality of whole sense, but it takes 143 kb, not 65MB, this is what made me posting my thoughts, i doubt you can understand me).
As I've said, that's my opinion and I respect your point of view
I liked your article very much. i tried lot of OS on my HD2 and the worst one was WP7. it is a ugly clone of iPhone OS. Windows mobile gives you full control of the device and you can customize it as much as you can...
I hope Microsoft will continue development on WM.
adempozhari said:
I liked your article very much. i tried lot of OS on my HD2 and the worst one was WP7. it is a ugly clone of iPhone OS. Windows mobile gives you full control of the device and you can customize it as much as you can...
I hope Microsoft will continue development on WM.
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yes.. hope microsoft still continuing it...
Nice article, and it was interesting to hear from someone who has tried out the majority of OS's out there. I got my first WinMo device back in 2005, though it still had WM2003 running on it. Since then, I have been hooked on WinMo. Like you, I also have an iPod Touch and the OS is smooth, but the customisation abilities are next to none (even if its jailbroken). Anyway, in general, I agree with most of what you say.
However, where I differ in opinion, is that I think WinMo is going to disappear sooner than you predict. WinMo hasn't had an update since 6.5 (was 6.5.x ever on a commercially available device?). And even HTC haven't offered an update on Sense since the HD2 came out. Thank goodness for XDA-Devs and Cookies Home Tab! I am sure that through this community, WinMo will live on for as long as there are working devices out there (I'm in no rush to swap my HD2 for anything else). But even now, you can see that Android and WP7 are becoming more and more popular within this community. And outside, in public, if you pull out a smartphone (regardless of model, or OS) someone will ask "Oh is that an iPhone?"
The beauty of the HD2 (I'm on my second HD2 as the first one was stolen) is that it will run many different OS's. So far, I have run several versions of Android, WP7 and Ubuntu. But I always come back to WinMo as it still offers the best for customisation and features. The iPhone for me is only a toy/fashion device that is over hyped and seriously over-advertised (which is why it sells so well- that and Apples nice design).I liked WP7, which I ran for nearly a week. Currently in it's first version it is a bit lacking but it is FAST! And when I do eventually get to the point of having to give up my HD2, I am hoping that Nokia will have a seriously good WP7 device on offer.
I am sure that XDA-Devs will continue to breath life into WinMo and drive it on to places Microsoft never thought to take it. But sad to say, I think WinMo has been abandoned by MS, forever. When did you last see a new device come out with WinMo on board? Even HTC seems to have totally hopped ship to Android and WP7. And it's getting harder to find new apps for WinMo (where as, iOS and Android have zillions of apps to offer - most of them are junk, but there are some gems among them).
Sorry to ramble on, but that was/is my opinion. Bleak, but with very fond memories of what is still in my mind, the best OS.
Copied from a post I made in here but worth an inclusion here.
**********************************************
When you visit the Expansys website here in the UK and filter available phones using Windows Mobile, it only lists six models, the same applies to Phone 7.
If you select available phones by Android, you get nearly fifty, although some of these are duplicated as different bundles, +SD card, cradle etc. The writing is clearly on the wall.
Interestingly, one of the Windows Mobile phones is an Airo Wireless. At over £500, it is a rather expensive item, but it is a waterproof, rubber armoured device that would probably survive being fired out of a cannon.
Post #38 by Tpimp420 in the thread link above, mentions Microsoft have rebranded WinMo as Microsoft Embedded Handheld, in the much larger Windows Embedded arena, and are targeting these types of devices for use in enterprise business applications/solutions.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembe.../overview.mspx
Microsoft has wised up to the fact that there are countless thousands of these things already in use, in warehouses and factories as barcode readers and pick-list terminals, in airlines (as Point-of-Sale (POS) terminals), data capture devices as meter readers, or in the field as customer survey recording devices, etc... etc..... The list goes on and on. These devices may occupy a niche market, but it's still quite a big one, which needs and will continue to need supporting. In the field these devices get a lot of use/abuse, and when they need replacing, with what do you replace them? An I-Phone or Android device? They wouldn't last a week!
WinMo as we know it, might not evolve much further, but Windows CE, and Embedded versions of XP and Windows 7 live on, for new generations of tablet devices. Microsoft has announced that it wants a lot more Windows stuff to run on ARM devices.
Meanwhile, there are still millions of WinMo devices out there, and sites like this, that try to keep them running.
After looking at Android's fragmentation, the pain that one has to go through for every damn update is really getting to me! Google has really screwed this one up big time...its funny to even see the number of different screen sizes, hardware configurations android is being used. No standardization makes it a nightmare for developers to write applications that are consistent. Its hard to imagine that google has been so short sighted!
Asus is surely a brilliant company to have come out with a great tablet (and their newer tabs are kick ass too at great price points). But its really bothersome if I'm always in some sort of dependence on the manufacturer to release OS updates - this is just plain crazy! If Google's aim of ICS was to converge all devices to use the same OS, then why aren't they supporting manufacturers or insisting on all manufacturers to push out an update?
To start things, Google has really messed up their long term roadmap with fragmentation issues...and I would expect a company of that scale to atleast put in some sort of contractual commitments with all its manufacturing partners to roll out updates to its customers within a given timeline.
Here is what I would expect Google to have implemented yesterday, if they really need to retain popularity towards Android and keep it growing -
1. No more fragmentation moving forward. Standardization of screen resolutions, minimum performance requirements, ram, storage requirements etc.
2. Device manufacturers must commit to issuing software updates within some timeline from when google has an update.
3. Manufacturers dont decide if the update can run on their device or not - it must be google who decides this, and should be decided based on hardware specs
Now with Windows 8 on the horizon, I would definitely wait it out and move over to a Windows 8 based tablet. Knowing Microsoft, they're perhaps the only company who invests a lot of time and thinking in getting things right. It shows clearly from their development tools/platform, their emulators, clean implementation rather than an iterative approach etc.
Last android tablet for sure! And I'm hoping windows phone 7 will mature too, and its windows 8 variant should be a lot more promising. Thats when I would phase out my Galaxy S and head back to MS
What are your thoughts people?
cheers,
San
dreamtheater39 said:
Knowing Microsoft, they're perhaps the only company who invests a lot of time and thinking in getting things right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha, you made my day XD ...btw. throwing the word "vista" into the ring ^^
coming to win8. i just read an article today that the arm version of windows is most likely not able to run desktop programs. asuming that: WOOOOOW, Windows 8
If you prefer a monolithic OS to the liberty you get with Android that's your choice.
Personally, I do not. I do not like being locked into one vendor who gets to decide how I use my device.
I like having a choice between a smartphone, a 7", 8.9", 10.1" or even 11.5" tablet, or even a laptop that I can run the same OS (Android) on.
I love the Transformer. I have one device that is truly a tablet and, with root, also serves the full functionality of a laptop. What can Windows offer me that does this? What can iOS offer me that can replace my Transformer?
And that's besides the fact that with a Windows device I'm stuck with an OS that I am familiar with the shortcomings of, and unable to do anything about. Or with iOS that, again, no one can fix but the manufacturer (if they feel like it).
Yes, fragmentation of the Android platform is a bit of a problem. The Market addresses this, somewhat, by only showing software you can install on your device. Most Android devs are sensitive to their customer's needs and a polite email is frequently responded to positively, and usually with a fix in short order.
Frankly, I consider the fragmented markets (GetJar, Market, Amazon App Store, etc) to be a far larger problem than fragmentation of the OS, and I don't consider that to be anywhere close to a large problem.
Hmmm my thoughts
1. They have set an agreement with there partners. A new timeline that they must update devices within a set life span for a device think it was around a year and a half have a google on it. (p.s year and a half aint bad considering how fast mobile tech is moving)
2. It should not be a problem for devs to write apps for ics and the differences in hardware are accounted for
3. ms well thought out vista ms dos longhorn??? ms dos was not future thinking and very short sighted especially in terms of ram!!!!!! if anyone remembers vista was a plain mess!! and longhorn didnt even meet the public. Not to mention the many other flaws or screw ups (anyone remember xp early days it was hackers heaven)
4. At its roots android is linux google the track record for updates and security between ms and linux then whie you're at it google how many servers in the world run linux compared to ms
5. The biggest flaw of all ms was a single user platform a pc the first pc they now want to make it multi user and move toward cloud computing etc etc linux has been doing this for years so inherantly android can do the same ms on the other hand is having to kick there own ass so hard bills teeth have been replaced with hes toe nails
6. I like win 8 and 7 for one reason gamming and a couple programs i just cant get otherwise but as soon as i can do these things elsewhere or linux based i will.
You do have good points but i just wanted to step in as the other side of the coin.
Sent from my tf Enigmatic V2 beta 1.65Ghz Panda.test cust kernel settings
If you really want to be assured you can run everything on every device I suggest you look at Apple. The iPad will continue to be the dominate tablet for years to come and then you can be assured that everything will be packaged nicely and controlled in the manner decreed in Cupertino.
Open source means a trading a messier support structure for more innovation, and is not for everyone.
blestsol said:
Just leave please and get your ipad.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Enough said, whining isn't usefull here.
Seriously what do you want us to say? Good writting nice information, thanks for the info!!
I mean wtf?
Reported the thread.
Klau you do relise where XDA stands for and what the DEVELOPERS word means behind it?
XDA is for developing and helping people when they want to use costum roms or other non officeal related subjects
If you are unsatisfied with a device use the offical forum of ASUS, thats the right place!
Are any of the responses written by a mod?
So since when did everyone get appointed the responsibility to decide what is allowed to be discussed on this board, which isn't even the developer forum, it's on the general forum.
If you don't think the topic is relevant to you, just don't enter it. Let the mod do their job.
---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
blestsol said:
Ooc, you don't agree of disagree... Why you responding? People use words wrong so much... Fan boy? Man you reaching. Foh. You sick of something ignore it and take your own advice. Dip from the thread. Simple ass that for your simple ass.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Learn to read, I said if you disagree, state your reason.
I've stated my reason of disagreement regarding the unfriendly atmosphere of this board.
You're grasping at straws that don't exist look who's reaching lol
klau1 said:
Are any of the responses written by a mod?
So since when did everyone get appointed the responsibility to decide what is allowed to be discussed on this board, which isn't even the developer forum, it's on the general forum.
If you don't think the topic is relevant to you, just don't enter it. Let the mod do their job.
---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
Learn to read, I said if you disagree, state your reason.
I've stated my reason of disagreement regarding the unfriendly atmosphere of this board.
You're grasping at straws that don't exist look who's reaching lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't disagree. My post said what I meant. What he was describing is what ios can give him. Please show where my fan boy thoughts are though. In my short sentence.
I'll wait for that though.
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda premium
silversx80 said:
Oh, the irony :
Here's the thing, the OP is an open-ended criticism on things the android community praises about the android platform. Praising those things does not make one a fanboy, nor does calling one a fanboy render an ages-old demotivational poster anything less than a sophomoric response in the hopes that a chuckle will sway the reader over to your point of view.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, face palm has always been my actual sentiment about the responses here, and pictures help prevents a large post from getting ignored.
silversx80 said:
Someone criticizes the platform as a whole, one which others really enjoy (including myself), and makes the declaration that they're moving over to another, which is much better. Their assessment is based only on opinionated observations from their point of view, which is hardly an inconvenience to anyone else. Of course they're going to get a "get the f*ck out" response, and deserve nothing less. It's like when the Christians invaded the Turks and tried to convert the entire group of people.
It brings up the ages-old motherly line of wisdom: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.
There is nothing wrong with desiring something that is better for your uses, but use that as a premise. Don't start by lambasting the opposition, especially when you know what the system is about and you know the offerings of the competition. Some people may actually enjoy the things you don't.
In my opinion, ALL of the devises and software are AMAZING when you consider what the all do.
Instead, we get a bunch of non-contributing, product-zero, whiny little girls. You know what, that's fine; next time you think of complaining, go make your own. As soon as yours is better, then you can complain about other offerings.
Until then, STFU and GTFO.
P.S. If android will be more successful as a standardized platform, we'll see it move that way. I write that with reservation, as android is currently the #1 mobile platform in the world, so they must be doing something right... much to the chagrin of the OP.
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Click to collapse
Look, every reasonably intelligent person understands trade-off exist. Simply one comes to mind:
can a "God be powerful enough to create a rock so heavy that even it can't lift it?"
Usability comes at the expense of functionality, everyone should understand that.
But people forget that sometimes, not a big deal, just explain it to them instead of acting like an internet bully. That doesn't help your point across.
silversx80 said:
It brings up the ages-old motherly line of wisdom: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because you disagree with the OP doesn't mean it was not "nice" or offensive
lol's were had reading this thread.
klau1 said:
Just because you disagree with the OP doesn't mean it was not "nice" or offensive
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, basically what he did was akin to going over to VW Vortex, complaining about all the reasons why his little 2.5 Golf was not like the current offerings from Toyota, and said that when the new Hondas come out, he's getting one of those.
There is no purpose in his post other than to demean and criticize. There is nothing productive, nor contributory about it. No, I didn't have to read, nor post, but I felt compelled.
If someone want's to leave for a better personal option, that's fine. If they want to make a scene and flip the table on the way out, then they shouldn't expect a positive reception to their announcement.
As much as I hate Apple, I do think that progress requires contrast. What do I mean? We need a solidified company like Apple that keeps pushing the same standard but slightly better (that's like peer-reviewed science). We need a looser society of innovators like Google's associates who play around at the edges of what we expect at the moment (who are like fringe scientists, some contribute great genius ideas, and some who completely **** it up). For me, I like the fringe scientist; I understand the need for peer-review, but I think I'll stick with Android for at least the next tablet too.
A WARNING FROM THE MODERATOR
A WARNING FROM THE MODERATOR
Play nice..........
talk nice ........
Or you will be banned.......
And I will close the thread
To those who reported this bad behavior, thank you
Keep it civil, Folks
Thanks ~ oka1 Moderator
Did they demo a Windows 8 ARM device at CES? I am very curious as to how Windows 8 will perform.
This is a very interesting project that could either excel if developers jump onboard, or crash horribly if developers reject the idea of Windows on ARM.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
Interesting feedback from all you guys!
Just to clear things out, from where i come from -
-I've always loved android for the flexibility it gives me. I've always made custom roms, modded the hell out of every device i've ever had, starting way back from the Pocket PC days! Android - seemed like the most perfect option for me.
-I've always stayed away from Apple, for a myriad of reasons - they dictate everything, and i hate that. And also, i hate being in the bucket of half wit fanboys who bought one just to be "cool"
-I work for one of the biggest game companies, and i'm responsible for technology direction for smartphones, tablets. So, let me tell you what this looks like from a developer's view point -
A game is always written for iOS first - reason being, the platform is standardized in terms of display resolutions, hardware capabilities. Testing effort is extremely low in comparison (you dont have to test on a 100 devices!)
You have only 2 aspect ratios to deal with - phone & tablet. And you know that your game will run on all the iphones and ipads floating in the world. So this makes it easy from development & testing points of view. And this is the reason why games are "always" developed for iOS first.
Now the fun begins - once the game is done and is out on iTunes, there are large conversion teams which takes care of getting it to run on android phones and tablets. You have to see the hardware inventory we have here - so manyyyy android phones and tablets - and all of these have to be tested to give it a QA greenlight. Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
And then now, we have honeycomb and ICS - the screen has a static status bar in the bottom which takes away 48 pixels from your screen! Suddenly, your game needs to factor odd resolutions of 1280x752, 1232x800, 1024x552, etc etc. This means - redesigning all your game menus, UI, dialogs so that they dont leak out of the screen - crazy load of work! And then - you can have ONLY ONE APK to support ALL THESE resolutions and hardware configurations!
And then finally to top it all, you have several different market places, custom roms to test on, devices that the developer blacklists because of incompatibility - bypasses blacklisting on the market place because of a custom rom/hack...and he ends up playing the game giving us bad ratings!
The list is endless! I really feel this should not be the case for such a huge platform coming from a really big ass company! Honestly, i feel android made it big because it came in at the right time when the hardware side of things was at a great level - allowing them to give super slick graphics. And they had no other competition (windows mobile was too old, and the other was just iOS). They just got lucky, went without a clear plan - and iteratively refined and fixed things.
Atleast now, I feel Google should really accelerate its efforts towards some form of convergence. Look at the variance that a developer needs to take care of - different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor!) - performance wise, different screen resolutions (a 100 different combinations! literally!), custom roms/modding, different manufacturer driven hardware/software customization, a zillion different OS versions, and so on. All this has to be factored, and we can have only 1 apk! And then finally, the provided android emulator that they provide - is soooo damn sorry, its not even funny. The emulator is literally like a slide show on my really powerful desktop - forget trying to use the built in emulator for developing games!
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
dreamtheater39 said:
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a huge problem with this statement, and pretty much the rest of your post. They are not a valid presumptions.
First, the developer and platform support each other. The platform does not live because the developer supports it... I'd argue that it's the other way around, but still a 2-way street. Without the platform, the developer cannot develop.
Second, games from the big developers may be released on iOS first, and some may be released on Android first. Without references, your statement in invalid. If you're only referring to your company, then specify that.
Third, screen resolution (and other oddities) may be a contributing factor in some app developers not bringing iOS apps to Android, but the vetting process of the Apple App Store discourages other developers from even trying to release anything onto iOS. Some devs don't even want to program things for iOS based on principle (and visa versa).
Fourth, the whole reason big mobile-platform app developer companies exist is to make money. Why alienate more than 50% of the market because of screen resolution? That would be lazy and counter-productive to profits.
Fifth, one could argue that it's not the big-time devs who got each platform off the ground, but the small-time devs, who released their apps for free. It wasn't the gaming capabilities that sold Android and iOS early on; that's a very narrow perspective.
Sixth, Android isn't being shot in the proverbial foot by different market places, those particular devices may be. The Nook and Kindle Fire come to mind, but keep in mind that those were sold on the premise that they're electronic readers first, that happen to run a modified version of Android.
I feel that you're upset over Android making it harder for you to earn a paycheck. I understand the challenges involved, but I think you're not looking at the big picture.
I moved to Windows Mobile phones from Palm devices because I wanted better synching with my computer, use of the .Net framework, and ease of customization ability. Turned out that WM was not intuitive on my early phones.
I moved from WM to webOS. Loved it. It was intuitive, smooth and reliable. Customization wasn't very easy, but I didn't care. Also, it had support of the big app developers and had some pretty good games too. Unfortunately, it didn't have support of the small-time app devs because of the difficulty writing apps for it. Where is it now?
From there, I knew that webOS was going to be short-lived, so I moved to Android. No, it's not as stable as iOS or webOS, but it is still a great OS. Small devs can get a chance in the app market, along with big-time devs who write cross-platform.
Windows 8 may be a great platform, but the big picture is that there is no cult-following for Microsoft as there is for Apple. What they need to do is give potential-customers options. Those options need to range from inexpensive, to top of the line. Different hardware, in other words (a nightmare for devs). If they don't, and since they don't have a die-hard following, I suspect it wont gain as much ground as Android did, or even webOS.
Apple has a good customer base, and knows what that customer wants. It's an easy sell. Windows customers are far too diverse and can't accept a blanket-type device range to cover all the wants and needs like Apple customers can. Android addresses those customers by providing options because it's an open architecture. Fragmentation sucks for the devs, but the user doesn't care because the typical user only has one device. Those users are why the devs exist at all.
To sum up, I think three things:
1. Your assessment of Android's shortcomings are somewhat short-sighted and not applicable to the big picture. The user wants the experience of the phone, not the apps. Apps are just noise now, with hundreds doing the same thing.
2. Your arguments are falling on deaf ears, or ears that cannot do anything about your complaints (i.e. I don't think Android's authors are reading this thread with much merit).
3. Your arguments would be better suited in the iOS, or Windows 8 sub-forums.
I was thinking about the horror of all the different Android devices when looking at them from a Dev's point of view (which I am NOT) so I appreciate your openness and insight.
The main reason why I will stay away from an iOS tablet for a long time is simply that the interface on a tablet needs to be more flexible than simply arranging icons to start apps. In other words, as long as iOS does not support widgets there's no appeal to me to buy an Apple tablet. Very narrow-minded, I know. Having an iPh*one (3GS) is not optimal but I am still waiting for an Android phone that intrigues me and is NOT linked to VZW.
dreamtheater39 said:
Interesting feedback from all you guys!
Just to clear things out, from where i come from -
-I've always loved android for the flexibility it gives me. I've always made custom roms, modded the hell out of every device i've ever had, starting way back from the Pocket PC days! Android - seemed like the most perfect option for me.
-I've always stayed away from Apple, for a myriad of reasons - they dictate everything, and i hate that. And also, i hate being in the bucket of half wit fanboys who bought one just to be "cool"
-I work for one of the biggest game companies, and i'm responsible for technology direction for smartphones, tablets. So, let me tell you what this looks like from a developer's view point -
A game is always written for iOS first - reason being, the platform is standardized in terms of display resolutions, hardware capabilities. Testing effort is extremely low in comparison (you dont have to test on a 100 devices!)
You have only 2 aspect ratios to deal with - phone & tablet. And you know that your game will run on all the iphones and ipads floating in the world. So this makes it easy from development & testing points of view. And this is the reason why games are "always" developed for iOS first.
Now the fun begins - once the game is done and is out on iTunes, there are large conversion teams which takes care of getting it to run on android phones and tablets. You have to see the hardware inventory we have here - so manyyyy android phones and tablets - and all of these have to be tested to give it a QA greenlight. Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
And then now, we have honeycomb and ICS - the screen has a static status bar in the bottom which takes away 48 pixels from your screen! Suddenly, your game needs to factor odd resolutions of 1280x752, 1232x800, 1024x552, etc etc. This means - redesigning all your game menus, UI, dialogs so that they dont leak out of the screen - crazy load of work! And then - you can have ONLY ONE APK to support ALL THESE resolutions and hardware configurations!
And then finally to top it all, you have several different market places, custom roms to test on, devices that the developer blacklists because of incompatibility - bypasses blacklisting on the market place because of a custom rom/hack...and he ends up playing the game giving us bad ratings!
The list is endless! I really feel this should not be the case for such a huge platform coming from a really big ass company! Honestly, i feel android made it big because it came in at the right time when the hardware side of things was at a great level - allowing them to give super slick graphics. And they had no other competition (windows mobile was too old, and the other was just iOS). They just got lucky, went without a clear plan - and iteratively refined and fixed things.
Atleast now, I feel Google should really accelerate its efforts towards some form of convergence. Look at the variance that a developer needs to take care of - different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor!) - performance wise, different screen resolutions (a 100 different combinations! literally!), custom roms/modding, different manufacturer driven hardware/software customization, a zillion different OS versions, and so on. All this has to be factored, and we can have only 1 apk! And then finally, the provided android emulator that they provide - is soooo damn sorry, its not even funny. The emulator is literally like a slide show on my really powerful desktop - forget trying to use the built in emulator for developing games!
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought the name of the game was resolution independence, designing your UI's without depending on absolute values but rather relative values and taking into account resolution size, using DP measurement units instead of PX. The last time I worked on an app was a while ago but even then the app scaled fine from something as small as a Droid 2 to something as large (was large at the time) as a Nook Color or a Galaxy Tab.
So are you saying Apple has it better because they only have two screen sizes? Who cares if there are fifty different screen sizes and fifty different resolutions? If you design your UI and your app correctly with resolution independence in mind it should scale well to most if not every resolution and every aspect ratio shouldn't it?
Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you referring to certain things like how device GPU's vary and therefore certain texture compression methods in OpenGL for example only work with ATI GPU's and not PowerVR GPU's and vice versa?
I do agree that fragmentation exists but only between Android versions such as those running 1.5, 1.6, 2.2, 3.0, 4.0, etcetera but you can deal with this. I doubt they'll standardize hardware. Maybe screen sizes, maybe screen resolutions but manufacturers are there to make money, not play equal to every other manufacturer. If HTC wants to release a better phone with a better resolution to make more money Google isn't going to tell them to do otherwise. The only reason this is different with Apple is because Apple is the only one making hardware for their iOS so there are no companies fighting over each other for profits. They can control the whole platform. Obviously with Android you have multiple hardware manufacturers and they're not all part of the same company, they're looking to make profits over each other and that means devices have varying features. That's just how Android is unless Google makes their own devices and restricts Android to Google devices.
I think I would like the idea of uniformity better too, not as strict as Apple but certain things being the same across all vendors. We're heading that way in a sense since Google is requiring all ICS devices to support the Holo theme. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we get more restrictions from Google but as for forcing manufacturers to make certain hardware? That I truly doubt. Google has made it possible to work with different devices by allowing you to query for different device features such as checking for a keyboard or a trackball or an accelerometer, use resolution independent practices such as DP measurements and relative positioning, it's not as bad as it seems IMO.
different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So? What developer hasn't had to deal with this on virtually every system developed on since the origin of computing? Because Apple managed to create an illusion that this is irrelevant by making a handful of devices with fixed hardware and therefore only having to achieve acceptable performance on those devices? Make the decision to alienate those who don't fit the requirements. Alienating a certain group from support isn't going to be the end of the world. Games are sure to use Tegra 3 and those without Tegra 3 devices might be assed out if the game can't scale down. The world continues...
Tubular said:
I thought the name of the game was resolution independence, designing your UI's without depending on absolute values but rather relative values and taking into account resolution size, using DP measurement units instead of PX. The last time I worked on an app was a while ago but even then the app scaled fine from something as small as a Droid 2 to something as large (was large at the time) as a Nook Color or a Galaxy Tab.
So are you saying Apple has it better because they only have two screen sizes? Who cares if there are fifty different screen sizes and fifty different resolutions? If you design your UI and your app correctly with resolution independence in mind it should scale well to most if not every resolution and every aspect ratio shouldn't it?
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Of course, a lot of work is done to make things resolution independent. But this is not always easy when you want to have some really complex games designed which is heavy on 2D UI. Full screen dialog boxes, Floating UI options etc. are all part of many big game titles developed and ends up being incredibly hard to port across multiple resolutions/aspect ratios. Try looking at some of the user reviews on games - people complain about the smallest of things and randomly throw in a 1 star rating. For a development company, ratings are everything. If your app gets low ratings, it goes unnoticed and thereby killing your chances of earning decent revenues for breaking even - let alone profitability! The cost of development goes up due to higher requirements for development & testing (multiple devices and other fragmentation issues).
Are you referring to certain things like how device GPU's vary and therefore certain texture compression methods in OpenGL for example only work with ATI GPU's and not PowerVR GPU's and vice versa?
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Several things here - PVR textures, many open gl calls behave differently on certain devices - for instance the filtering doesnt work as expected on the samsung line of devices because they have their own driver tweaks applied, some devices crash out on a minor opengl warning, while the other devices ignore and continue to run etc. The point here is, you cant see it running on 1 "TYPE" of device which represents a family (same res, performance specs) and assume it will run on the rest. You can release and iteratively respond to user feedback - but you risk getting low ratings and then your game gets buried under.
So? What developer hasn't had to deal with this on virtually every system developed on since the origin of computing? Because Apple managed to create an illusion that this is irrelevant by making a handful of devices with fixed hardware and therefore only having to achieve acceptable performance on those devices? Make the decision to alienate those who don't fit the requirements. Alienating a certain group from support isn't going to be the end of the world. Games are sure to use Tegra 3 and those without Tegra 3 devices might be assed out if the game can't scale down. The world continues...
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When you build games, the objective is to provide the best graphics to the end user with excellent gameplay. Now, if i have to support several hardware configurations i either have a fallback mechanism to have lower quality on lower device (more dev effort, more costs, more testing), or reduce overall quality of graphics all across (bad quality game - low ratings, low revenues), blacklist lower specced devices (killing potential market share - cutting total revenues, risking break even). This becomes extremely critical especially because the games and apps are sold for a measly $1 and every sale is important!
silversx80 said:
Second, games from the big developers may be released on iOS first, and some may be released on Android first. Without references, your statement in invalid. If you're only referring to your company, then specify that.
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Not all developers need to follow this. But any large sized company will invariably follow this approach - mainly from the point of view of monetization. Right now, the fact is, Android is yet not a platform where the big bucks come from. Its still unfortunately the damn fruit company. And the sheer fact about the difficulty in have a game run on android is a deterrent to release on android first. Its much easier to finish a game for ios, throw it on the marketplace, and quickly see how the game did. If people like it, and you made decent revenues, then you could expand to android - which would take a lot more time, money, effort.
Fourth, the whole reason big mobile-platform app developer companies exist is to make money. Why alienate more than 50% of the market because of screen resolution? That would be lazy and counter-productive to profits.
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true, and thats what i mean by the effort it takes on testing and development makes it a costlier bet! Imagine the capital investment - to house all the phones to test on!
I feel that you're upset over Android making it harder for you to earn a paycheck. I understand the challenges involved, but I think you're not looking at the big picture.
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I barely find it hard to earn my paycheck Its my company which has to invest the $$$ to get every game out of the door to hit android markets! And just seeing all the chaos involved in shipping an android title, just makes me wonder why google has made this so complicated! If i have to think from the perspective of having my own startup company making android games - it would give me shivers! Not all companies have the lucky streak of Rovio and those few company that i could handcount.
-San