.... for those who are unfamiliar, that is a reference to the fourth installment of the Star Trek Movies (with Shatner as James T. Kirk):
But is also an electronic euphemism for me throwing my hands in the air in disgust.
Every time a new device surfaces, and the subsequent forum is created.... it is almost immediately populated with "Screen Bleed!", "Creaky Back Panel", "Dead Pixel", "Dust under Display", "I got Howler Monkey and NOT Gorilla Glass" threads (ok, I made up the last one, but you get the point...). These threads almost immediately degrade into a bashing of Asus, Samsung, HTC etc and their inherent failures of maintaining reasonable quality control and piss poor manufacturing tolerances. Rarely, though sometimes, does anything constructive come out of these threads. It just serves as vehicle for some users to vent their concerns... and other users to troll and incite anger. I know I can choose not to read these threads... however, on that rare occasion when there is a nugget of wisdom buried in the sea of bull#%@!, I am interested in learning.
I think we have to come and realize, that due to the scale on which these devices are produced... that there will be flaws coming off the line. Period.
I also think, as educated consumers, that everyone has the right to get the device that they paid for (within reasonable perception). Thus I never fault anyone for RMAing four, five or six times... it is there money and they can exercise whatever diligence is necessary to achieve whatever they feel their purchasing dollar deserves.
However, the endless bashing of manufacturers... "I will never by Asus or Samsung or <insert offending OEM>" are both tiresome and unrealistic. For instance, Samsung supplies many OEMs with both display and memory technology... even trying to avoid giving them your dollars is relatively difficult.
I guess what I am saying is that I empathize and recognize that users will find fault in new devices... and after forking over hard earned cashed will be indignant if it fails to meet their expectations. I just think there has to be a more constructive manner of voicing, organizing, researching and in some instances effecting change or exacting compensation for these "failures".
This is where I make a suggestion to the MODs:
The Q&A forums and Troubleshooting forums should be split. All new devices should have a dedicated Section (eg. Troubleshooting) for discussion of device flaws, production intolerances, technical failures and possible solutions. It would serve to clean-up the general section... and also allow for easier aggregating of "issues". This will allow for users to 1: see if something is a trend, or a few isolated instances; 2: serve to educate prospective buyers and 3: Allow information to be collected in a manner that is organized, coherent and possibly (I use this word loosely) useful in presenting OEMs with a list of informed users experiencing a defect on a wide scale.
I know, I suck...
[/rant]
Poser said:
.... for those who are unfamiliar, that is a reference to the fourth installment of the Star Trek Movies (with Shatner as James T. Kirk):
But is also an electronic euphemism for me throwing my hands in the air in disgust.
Every time a new device surfaces, and the subsequent forum is created.... it is almost immediately populated with "Screen Bleed!", "Creaky Back Panel", "Dead Pixel", "Dust under Display", "I got Howler Monkey and NOT Gorilla Glass" threads (ok, I made up the last one, but you get the point...). These threads almost immediately degrade into a bashing of Asus, Samsung, HTC etc and their inherent failures of maintaining reasonable quality control and piss poor manufacturing tolerances. Rarely, though sometimes, does anything constructive come out of these threads. It just serves as vehicle for some users to vent their concerns... and other users to troll and incite anger. I know I can choose not to read these threads... however, on that rare occasion when there is a nugget of wisdom buried in the sea of bull#%@!, I am interested in learning.
I think we have to come and realize, that due to the scale on which these devices are produced... that there will be flaws coming off the line. Period.
I also think, as educated consumers, that everyone has the right to get the device that they paid for (within reasonable perception). Thus I never fault anyone for RMAing four, five or six times... it is there money and they can exercise whatever diligence is necessary to achieve whatever they feel their purchasing dollar deserves.
However, the endless bashing of manufacturers... "I will never by Asus or Samsung or <insert offending OEM>" are both tiresome and unrealistic. For instance, Samsung supplies many OEMs with both display and memory technology... even trying to avoid giving them your dollars is relatively difficult.
I guess what I am saying is that I empathize and recognize that users will find fault in new devices... and after forking over hard earned cashed will be indignant if it fails to meet their expectations. I just think there has to be a more constructive manner of voicing, organizing, researching and in some instances effecting change or exacting compensation for these "failures".
This is where I make a suggestion to the MODs:
The Q&A forums and Troubleshooting forums should be split. All new devices should have a dedicated Section (eg. Troubleshooting) for discussion of device flaws, production intolerances, technical failures and possible solutions. It would serve to clean-up the general section... and also allow for easier aggregating of "issues". This will allow for users to 1: see if something is a trend, or a few isolated instances; 2: serve to educate prospective buyers and 3: Allow information to be collected in a manner that is organized, coherent and possibly (I use this word loosely) useful in presenting OEMs with a list of informed users experiencing a defect on a wide scale.
I know, I suck...
[/rant]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you.
I agree with this. I mean I'm impressed because they've managed to build so much devices compared to last year's fiasco (2-4 weeks waiting because of backorder). + you're paying 230$ for a tablet like this, don't except state-of-art QC from the manufacturer. That doesn't excuse their issues but at least I'm still impressed that it's not more than half the devices that have problems.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
My take is simply this (which the OP stated so well):
It's a new device that's been mass-produced; There will be issues.
That doesn't, however, mean it's a bad device that requires thread after thread after thread of angry ranting
Having a thread or two detailing common issues and, if needed, common procedures for repair / replacement is all that's needed.
Transparent Aluminum = aluminum oxynitride
it does exist, its what the military uses for transparent armor
Poser said:
.... for those who are unfamiliar, that is a reference to the fourth installment of the Star Trek Movies (with Shatner as James T. Kirk):
But is also an electronic euphemism for me throwing my hands in the air in disgust.
Every time a new device surfaces, and the subsequent forum is created.... it is almost immediately populated with "Screen Bleed!", "Creaky Back Panel", "Dead Pixel", "Dust under Display", "I got Howler Monkey and NOT Gorilla Glass" threads (ok, I made up the last one, but you get the point...). These threads almost immediately degrade into a bashing of Asus, Samsung, HTC etc and their inherent failures of maintaining reasonable quality control and piss poor manufacturing tolerances. Rarely, though sometimes, does anything constructive come out of these threads. It just serves as vehicle for some users to vent their concerns... and other users to troll and incite anger. I know I can choose not to read these threads... however, on that rare occasion when there is a nugget of wisdom buried in the sea of bull#%@!, I am interested in learning.
I think we have to come and realize, that due to the scale on which these devices are produced... that there will be flaws coming off the line. Period.
I also think, as educated consumers, that everyone has the right to get the device that they paid for (within reasonable perception). Thus I never fault anyone for RMAing four, five or six times... it is there money and they can exercise whatever diligence is necessary to achieve whatever they feel their purchasing dollar deserves.
However, the endless bashing of manufacturers... "I will never by Asus or Samsung or <insert offending OEM>" are both tiresome and unrealistic. For instance, Samsung supplies many OEMs with both display and memory technology... even trying to avoid giving them your dollars is relatively difficult.
I guess what I am saying is that I empathize and recognize that users will find fault in new devices... and after forking over hard earned cashed will be indignant if it fails to meet their expectations. I just think there has to be a more constructive manner of voicing, organizing, researching and in some instances effecting change or exacting compensation for these "failures".
This is where I make a suggestion to the MODs:
The Q&A forums and Troubleshooting forums should be split. All new devices should have a dedicated Section (eg. Troubleshooting) for discussion of device flaws, production intolerances, technical failures and possible solutions. It would serve to clean-up the general section... and also allow for easier aggregating of "issues". This will allow for users to 1: see if something is a trend, or a few isolated instances; 2: serve to educate prospective buyers and 3: Allow information to be collected in a manner that is organized, coherent and possibly (I use this word loosely) useful in presenting OEMs with a list of informed users experiencing a defect on a wide scale.
I know, I suck...
[/rant]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For once I totally agree with somebody 100%, I mean literally. Every time you go into google and pick a product and write "fail" "error" "failure" you will get complains, rants and what not, people need to learn that there is NO PERFECTION in mass-production products.
Want a perfect car? Pay it. Want a perfect phone? Buy an iPhone kidding
Related
This community is so damn innovative and cooperative, it amazes me what software/ROMS get cooked here which really add a lot of productivity value to me, transforming a tedious, hard-to-read Windows Mobile User Interface into a tool that really works on the go. And I've been equally impressed by the collaborative spirit of this community in problem solving and feature tweeks.
Thus I am curious if there is an organized policy here that helps us end-users deter the scammers who grab software from XDA-developers, bundle it, and sell it across the web. I'm speaking of a prominent spot on the home page and within the information design of these forums that, just like the "Missing Kids" alerts on milk cartons, highlights prominently the latest scammers stealing work here.
I understand this forum is for actual development, but truth is this issue gets lost in "General" forums. Because it's the people who hack here who are the people being hurt directly.
Though I signed onto XDA over a year ago, and have read volumes re my T-mobile MDA and software upgrades here, I ended up being nonetheless too nervous to follow the very clear instructions posted last year with all if the various WM 6 roms developed here. And I never did upgrade.
But I have a WING now, and I wanted an iphone theme and user interface. Again I read all the sticky threads for the Herald, as well as the links from the wiki for that specific phone. After several days of trying to figure out "should I be first flashing my T-mobile ROM to a more efficient one, before then seeking to install one of the iphone themes and apps like A_C's S2U2 etc. I then did a dumb consumer thing: when searching this site using Google, I followed the links to one or two of the GOOGLE AD-WORDS hawking an iPhone theme on your PocketPC.
Long story short, I got scammed of $10 for something that was outdated and didn't even install properly on my WING... But I'd been "comforted" by the presentation on their website, http://iphonethemeforpocketpc.com , thinking I would get my head cleared of the confusion that mounts when I'd dig down deep into the many discussions of so many ROMs & themes & apps here. I got burned, that was bad enough. But it then pissed me off doubly that superior software would be found here at XDA -- and more than likely some of that guy's component cab files were simply stolen from developers right here.
I ended up back here and successfully installed the ifonz theme, A_C's S2U2 (the scam site had an old slide2unlock version... bit as everyone here knows, A_C's app is superb. I also installed Contact Manager (amazing!), PCM keyboard (what an improvement over windows), and MortPlayer (fantastic). I intend to donate to each program author.
But the purpose of this post is this: I filed a dispute with PayPal (requires login) over this scammer's non-working product and absolute refusal to even reply to my early "friendly" emails seeking install help. Went through PayPal's Resolution Center "escalation process" -- after no reply from the seller to PayPal -- and my dispute became a CLAIM for Paypal to determine outcome. PayPal's reply, denying the claim, states that they reviewed all communications and investigated the issue fully (totally not true).
I could have stopped there -- afterall i'd long ago expended way more than $10 worth of my time -- but it was for the principle of it. So I called PayPal, went through all the menu-options, screenings, and hold queues, and finally spoke to an actual Resolution Agent -- who was very nice, & actually very helpful.
However: I learned then, from her, what many of you may already know -- but I wonder DOES everyone know?, because I sure didn't... She told me that anything digital or downloadable is not even covered with any Buyer Protection as disclosed in PayPal's terms of service. So the claim got closed automatically because it didn't qualify for any dispute resolution. I was really surprised by this, that no downloadable software is subject to dispute/resolution policies -- and that's why I am writing this thread, as a service (I *hope*) to all you developers.
I first did a search here on the boards for "scams", because I wanted to find a place on this site to DISPLAY CLEARLY---> Here is a scamsite --> make sure your stuff is not being sold there. That's when I saw this sampling of threads, below, and had to wonder, is there a policy here that is clear and easy to find (NO! not that I can see!) that helps developers here by giving us end-users a place to post the hit-list of scammers on ebay, on iphonetheme websites, etc. ?
If so, I missed it in the information design here. If not, I recommend it. I know it burns you guys who are being ripped off -- but it also ticks off less-sophisticated community members like me (end-users of your hard work) to see your works exploited -- given especially their innovation and performance tweeks.
Here are just a few of the threads I found from this year, from March 08, where people reported being ripped off by people selling their works. In my view, I don't think that's enough or sufficient to just have someone start a thread saying "beware of X, Y or Z". And that's why I posted this. Thanks to all of you who make the lives of end-users more productive with your great work.
q/s
Name And Shame Ebayer Stealing Xdev Material
Bastards selling my Unlocker
Thief On The Loose At Hofo and possibly xda!
wow.. no reply. well i know i'm verbose, but i thought this would at least get a reply that explained yes/no if the site has designated a specific area to broadcast who are the current scammers operating out on he internets...
Should I be posting this into a different forum? if so, which one please/ thanks
As far as I know, there is no area warning about potential scams. There have been issues with people selling cooked roms on ebay that i'm aware of, but that normally comes up in model-specific forums.
it definitely could be helpful to have such an area on the forum, but at the same time, there have been many stickies informing people NOT to go out and sell other peoples work, and advising people against using warez and cracked programs.
Most people that have come to this forum realize there is no reason to pay for most software, as there's probably an excellent free or open source alternative. if there's not yet, someone's working on one. this forum is a mix of entusiasts, programmers, hackers, and people who just love to tweak their devices. once you come here and see the vast amounts of information, there's really no need to go anywhere else. i check the xda forums rather regularly, and pocketpcfreeware every now and again.
i don't think a scams section on the forum would help keep from people getting scammed elsewhere... they usually find this site after they've already been scammed. many of us have already taken it into our own hands, by trying to point as many people as we can here, so they can learn the beauty of free, well maintained software and roms made by people who just want to help others enjoy their devices more and more.
scammers are more like a disease... and prevention is the best medicine.
alongenemylines said:
As far as I know, there is no area warning about potential scams. There have been issues with people selling cooked roms on ebay that i'm aware of, but that normally comes up in model-specific forums.
it definitely could be helpful to have such an area on the forum, but at the same time, there have been many stickies informing people NOT to go out and sell other peoples work, and advising people against using warez and cracked programs.
Most people that have come to this forum realize there is no reason to pay for most software, as there's probably an excellent free or open source alternative. if there's not yet, someone's working on one. this forum is a mix of entusiasts, programmers, hackers, and people who just love to tweak their devices. once you come here and see the vast amounts of information, there's really no need to go anywhere else. i check the xda forums rather regularly, and pocketpcfreeware every now and again.
i don't think a scams section on the forum would help keep from people getting scammed elsewhere... they usually find this site after they've already been scammed. many of us have already taken it into our own hands, by trying to point as many people as we can here, so they can learn the beauty of free, well maintained software and roms made by people who just want to help others enjoy their devices more and more.
scammers are more like a disease... and prevention is the best medicine.
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Click to collapse
There have been instances where its come to the attention of the community here and the developers of ROMS and programs that their work is being packaged and sold on ebay and the like. Obviously this behavior is viewed very negatively. While there is no policy or "organized" efforts to monitor and react, when someone does point out an instance, the community members rally around and do what they can to call the guy out, and warn potential scammees of it. Ebay is often notified directly, and also comments on the sellers postings on ebay are made to warn.
And yes, your post is verbose
I used to confuse this forum with a decent place for technical discussion of technical issues related to HTC devices, this illusion was short lived People are just casually dropping links to warez and no one seems to care! no moderation whatsoever. Take this example: A rigged license file for the most marvelous software ever for Windows mobile: Igo8 was put two months ago here. I complained quite clearly, and requested moderators for action in the respective thread here. No action whatsoever! Now look at this glorious post in the same thread here, the whole rigged software is available for your kind usage. It seems there is no stopping!
Please understand my harsh tone has a deeper reason. I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM.
Best regards!
if you havent heard, the jailbroken iphones have a program called Installer...where they get all the apps for free too just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ... i just dont see the reason why it would bother you, it's neither one of our faults, its the way the website monitors their threads ... no need to make a whole new thread bashing the website
elite-fusion said:
if you havent heard, the jailbroken iphones have a program called Installer...where they get all the apps for free too just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ... i just dont see the reason why it would bother you, it's neither one of our faults, its the way the website monitors their threads ... no need to make a whole new thread bashing the website
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats not the point... and the purpose of this thread isn’t "bashing" this forum. The point is, we here should not facilitate the downward spiral windows mobile is in right now, we should have strict action against it at least within the discussions here. I know about iphone jail breaking, but its ease and availability is no where close to WM... iphone app developers are really earning money, the proof of this pudding is in eating. Just last year, we all were laughing at iphone not having an SDK. Now, if i try to google an app for my WM, the search return iphone app instead!
Deep Breath.......
waqarz said:
Thats not the point... etc,etc,etc !
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Click to collapse
When I first started to read your initial post I thought - Hear we go, another over exaggerated claim and a rant about how poorly the site is managed.... but as I finished reading I thought "Yep" your at least partly right - there's far more "abuse" of the forum and site now in many ways than there was a year ago - not just on the Warez front either - So I'm very much with you there and in support of your "general" comments.... However....
Membership of XDA Developers has rocketed in the past 12 months (or so it seems????) as has the activity and number of posts/comments/hits per day - and not just in this section but in many others.... which is of course a good thing - but..... with all the extra traffic and all the extra members so the "unwanted" aspects also experientially increase - and "OUR" moderators have far more to monitor and try to manage (as well as helping out and offering advice themselves when they can) and this is the part you seem to have missed as others often do - the moderators are NOT paid - its something they do because they want to and because they can.....
I would actively encourage you, and ALL other members to continue to report abuse of the site and on the forums and to actively discourage other members by highlighting (as you have) inappropriate behaviour so we can self regulate as much as possible.
Of course, if the moderators have time and the inclination to step in and take action then that’s great, if not - then lets help by policing ourselves and offering offenders (quite often misguided I'm sure) some friendly but firm advice - if its ignored then what more can we do.
Deep Breath.......
.
"the downward spiral windows mobile is in right now"
Dear Don Quixote, i beg to differ. The """downward""" spiral is becoase of crappy operating system and warez has nothing to do with it. And well, iphone is trendy :lol: I dont condone warez but i am organically alergic to more-god-than-god people like you.
And stop annoying people here, go to the kindergarten and yell "new torrent tracker". You will be amazed how many kids will turn around.
waqarz said:
I used to confuse this forum with a decent place for technical discussion of technical issues related to HTC devices, this illusion was short lived People are just casually dropping links to warez and no one seems to care! no moderation whatsoever. Take this example: A rigged license file for the most marvelous software ever for Windows mobile: Igo8 was put two months ago here. I complained quite clearly, and requested moderators for action in the respective thread here. No action whatsoever! Now look at this glorious post in the same thread here, the whole rigged software is available for your kind usage. It seems there is no stopping!
Please understand my harsh tone has a deeper reason. I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM.
Best regards!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The best you can do to help stopping this is to report the post or member clicking on the report symbol next to the post #, or post it in spam section here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=306366&page=22
That way Mods can take an action.
There are so many threads that is difficult to monitor all
If you have a problem
use the report button, we are here to help.
we can't be everywhere so you need to tell us so we can act.
thank you.
liamhere said:
use the report button, we are here to help.
we can't be everywhere so you need to tell us so we can act.
thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I really should have used the "report" link, my bad!
I really do appreciate all the volunteer work being done here by moderators and other resonable members. I myself moderate a few forums, not as large as this though and to some extend I know the toll. All, keep up the good work!
I still have a suggestion, members doing strict violation of policy should be warned and later banned!
Best regards.
waqarz said:
I still have a suggestion, members doing strict violation of policy should be warned and later banned!
Best regards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nah just electrocute them first, warn them if they recover.
fards said:
Nah just electrocute them first, warn them if they recover.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good one
waqarz said:
...
I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as someone else already did
i must disagree with you on one point, why WinMo "...is taking such strong bashing from..." iPhone
it has nothing to do with Warez, your argument seems uninformed and almost sounds like bashing
Using the iPhone for any length of time you'll realize just how much time was put into the user experience, no manual, no class, just pick up and use. WinMo had thought behind it's design, but it was designed about a decade ago, to be used with a stylus. As is it's hopelessly outdated in look and feel (Windows 3.1 anyone, that's mature too by now)
As for the reason it seams that developers do better on the iPhone it's the same thing; thought. Thought put into the experience of using the AppStore. no serial headaches, integration, updates, and backup - just works. Like iTunes it's just easy to use for average people, Handago (or whatever is compatible with AppStore) is NOT easy.
Ignoring the needs of users and no real innovation from Redmond is doomsday for WinMo. Not Warez (which, as mentioned exist for the iPhone too, and it's this easy).
P.S. never had an Apple product, but if iPhone had Copy & Paste i'd own one now, not the HD
P.P.S. there is somewhat of a backlash in the Apple community against quality control, bad developers, and no "try before you buy" in the AppStore. if interested please read here then here.
The only thing why Iphone have so many Apps (and good apps) is the Appstore (one place for all apps), and the Hype. And ofcourse its only 1 device, with 1 displaysize, 1 processor and 1 input type.
On WM we got several desplaysizes, devices, processors and input types.
Its much more easy and cheaply to develope for 1 device than for thousands.
If we get also a appstore i am really safe that we get more good apps and games for our WM Devices.
Second:
I think delevopers do a hard job and develope good apps, and we shall donate to them. I work for a big software company and also hate warez. Warez is not good, but do not exaggerate nevertheless times! I do not think that here possibly someone such things with intention.
Third:
Sorry for my bad english.
Sir.B said:
as someone else already did
i must disagree with you on one point, why WinMo "...is taking such strong bashing from..." iPhone
it has nothing to do with Warez, your argument seems uninformed and almost sounds like bashing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You cant be serious right? Go through these 3 articles, just the first 3 hits on google:
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/6459.html
http://www.fiercedeveloper.com/report/mobile-pda-software-piracy-and-warez
http://apcmag.com/windows_mobile_6_pirated.htm
Take one example: just over the last year, hundreds of thousands of people have illegally shared navigation maps, a conservative estimate of loss is in millions of dollars.
I an NOT claiming piracy is the only problem with WM, but it sure is a BIG contributor, this is my only point in this discussion. The reasons and implications are many and I cant go into details. I really feel sorry, my own mistake, dropping in the word "iphone" always ends up in a useless debate! Many threads here being trashed because of this.
Best regards.
so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)
I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.
Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw
yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.
Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.
I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.
this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.
Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.
And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.
irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.
The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.
Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.
Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.
Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.
Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
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Click to collapse
Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave
So here's the deal... Motorola has crippled their phones, kept their bootloaders locked, and directly mocked the same people that bought their hardware essentially telling them to suck it. However, in today's social environment we have a way to fight back hard, and others have already discovered this. Go on facebook, like motorola's page (I know, its horrible, but we have too), by liking you'll be able to post in the comments of every moto post. Find every single god damn post by motorola and post the message that you will not be buying another motorola product as long as they keep the view of controlling the hardware you paid for. Tell them you will be spreading this message to your peers, friends, and family. Make it public knowledge that although they build great hardware, their software sucks, and while on other brands this is not a problem as the developers can produce clean,fast, stable roms, this is not the case with Motorola products due to the locked bootloader.
Your task is set, spread the message, and check out all the comments on their page and see how well everyone is already doing on this. Be snarky, be smart, and make them pay in the public light. Find every blog post or forum post across the intertubes and spread the same message. If we can spread it everywhere both moto and the public with get the message. If moto does not concede then they will suffer for it.
~ JT
Many of the locks are imposed by carriers and/or are selling points at the Motorola sales meetings. Carriers make so much more profit off a locked down device (lower overhead costs associated with supporting "one way" and by funneling customers through carrier premium services) that your best bet may be to start buying unlocked devices so motorola sees that aspect of the market as profitable.
Talk does very little compared to dollars. I totally agree with you that locked down devices suck for some consumers-but proprietary is just where the money's at :: cough Apple :: and the people who make decisions like this are just watching the bottom line.
Sent from my MB520 using XDA App
They are doing it because it is the bottom line yes, but if we make it very very apparent that its negatively affecting the bottom line, publicize it heavily, than we can work against these factors. Saying it's not helpful to consumers is bull****! I personally have recommend many many android phones to all my friends, family, peers, rooted them all, installed way cleaner and faster roms and in general made their phones and experiences amazing.
Hey folks,
Long time user (and prior to that, long time lurker) on these forums - but today, I'm posting with a random, unusual request.
I'm trying to find Android fans in Los Angeles who may be available to help me with a little TV filming this coming Monday (26th June).
Long story short - my day job is as a TV reporter in Los Angeles.. I work for a global news channel called CGTN America (we broadcast out of Washington DC, Beijing and Nairobi to around about 1.2 billion homes worldwide.. including in the US on cable and satellite, though most of our viewers tend to come internationally)..
Since I'm a huge tech-head, I'm filming a story to go out later this week on ten years of the iPhone. But I want to make it different. What often happens with these stories is some networks get reporters who know nothing about technology to do them, and you end up with something that is just saying 'the iPhone is the most amazing device ever invented.'
Regardless of what side of the fence you sit on, it is an amazing device. And it did have a revolutionary impact. But there is so much to the story other than that.
One of the angles I really want to explore is the battle between iOS and Android. The way that the iPhone almost set the lines for a war. You see it on forums like this and XDA and Apple-related forums - people trying to outdo each other.. and people getting really irate as they nail their colors to the mast of their OS of choice.
I wondered if there may be some Android fans in the LA area who I could meet up with on Monday, if we can arrange a convenient time and we film a little sequence (details of which, I'm still to work out in my head) but talking about the iOS vs Android wars. This may be just Android users or it may an Android user and an iPhone user both debating what's best about their relevant OS.
It's still a germ of an idea. But I wanted to throw it out there and hope it gets seen over the weekend.
I'm gonna post this over on Android Central as well to try to maximize the number of people who see it and also on the General Android Chat Forum here. The reason for the double post is that in my experience, the real ire is often between Samsung and Apple fans (reflecting the companies, almost) and so there may be people in that board that this really appeals to..
Anyway, please do reply to me on here, or via DM, or via twitter @phillavelle.
Thanks for looking and have a great day!
Phil
Hi Phil,
I’d be happy to offer some of my time to you forthis endeavor. I’ve lurked on these forums since long before iOS or Android even existed. If you are indeed serious about this I can provide you with my full name which you can then quickly google to see my credentials.
I can play either side of the discussion as I have been a mobile technology consultant for about two decades and have owned (and still own and use both iOS and Android) devices from all major manufacturers.
- Luca
atomic.flip said:
Hi Phil,
I’d be happy to offer some of my time to you forthis endeavor. I’ve lurked on these forums since long before iOS or Android even existed. If you are indeed serious about this I can provide you with my full name which you can then quickly google to see my credentials.
I can play either side of the discussion as I have been a mobile technology consultant for about two decades and have owned (and still own and use both iOS and Android) devices from all major manufacturers.
- Luca
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Hello Luca, yes please, that would be great..
Thread closed.
This is a duplicate of this one below you already posted in General discussion > Off-topic:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/ge...droid-fans-t3626634/post72789901#post72789901
So, please continue the discussion in the above linked thread.
This is not allowed to post twice (or more) the same message on XDA by forum rule #5:
5. Create a thread or post a message only once.
As a large forum, we don't need unnecessary clutter. You're free to edit your message as you like, so if you do not receive an answer, revisit your message and see if you can describe your problem better. Not everyone is online at the same time so it might take a while before you receive an answer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Full list of the rules here: https://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81
Thank you for your understanding.
Regards,
Wood Man
Forum Moderator