so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)
I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.
Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw
yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.
Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.
I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.
this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.
Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.
And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.
irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.
The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.
Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.
Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.
Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.
Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
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About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
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Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave
Related
http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/06...kers-with-legal-action-for-distributing-roms/
Leaks happen — especially in the mobile world. There are just too many people involved in the process of creating a mobile device to keep things under wraps. Take any given new phone’s OS installation package (known as its “ROM”), for example; when something is as easily copied and distributed as any other piece of software, it’s bound to find its way out eventually.
When these ROMs pop up on developer/hacker forums, it’s generally no big deal — in most cases, the manufacturer doesn’t notice or, if they do, don’t bother to do anything about it. Once someone makes an effort to gather up all these ROMs and distribute them from one unified outlet, however, things get hairy. Such is the case for the popular HTC ROM distribution site Shipped-ROMs, who allegedly just received a Cease & Desist order straight from the desk of HTC’s Legal Counsel.
According to HTC, Shipped-ROMs is stepping out of line by “illegal copying … HTC¡¦s original art work.” Do they use “art work” literally (as in the visuals)? Or are they ambiguously using the term to classify all of their code and other work as art? Who knows. One way or another, HTC is pissed.
If nothing else, you’ve got to praise HTC for their speed: the site, operated by the increasingly well-known hardware hacker Conflipper, is only about a month old. More impressive than HTC’s speed, however, is the site’s: in that month, they’ve managed to accumulate ROMs for just about every HTC handset imaginable, from antiques like the MDA Compact to the just-friggin’-lanched HTC Aria.
So, who does one root for? On one hand, these ROMs allow the hacking community to “cook” up their own custom installs for the hardcore crowd, often unlocking or adding in features that the manufacturer didn’t — and rarely, if ever, do these leaks result in anything malicious trickling down to the end user. On the other, these ROMs are jam-packed with HTC’s intellectual property, which they’ve got some duty to protect.
In the end, I’ll always be rooting for the little guy. My time with a number of HTC devices has been vastly improved by the efforts of the faceless geniuses in the hacking community. If HTC decides to make a misguided effort to stop the hacking community that satiates their poweruser’s thirsts, so be it — but this is the wrong way to go about it. C&D’ing one site won’t do a damn thing; these ROMs will be up on another site (or a torrent tracker, or any one of a bajillion other distribution methods) in the blink of an eye. It’s the classic Napster problem; in making a fuss about these ROMs, you’ve just alerted a bunch of people to their existence. Oh well.
The full text of the C&D can be read at Shipped-Roms. Conflipper says he’ll “do what he can” to keep the site online, but things aren’t looking too good.
so its illegal to fix HTC's blunders. that is great news!
It makes sense. Those miscrient hackers are doing something illegal and harming HTC by re-distributing copyrighted material (htc sense). The hackers should be caught and brought to justice for what they have done.
Obv I am joking =P
Look at the bright side though maybe will see more AOSP only ROM's
Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk
HTC we have bigger issues on our hands right now! Once again you're late to the party. Maybe you should focus on getting out that firmware update to fix this 30fps cap! Or... at least go buy some more glue...
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
MrX8503 said:
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
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Soo true ... instead of fixing their Issues they are busy sueing ppls who are making good things
HTCs not after those making modifications to rom - hackers , sites etc
They want to do away with those hosting official ROMs on unofficial servers.
You know what would be a good idea? Just issue licenses to various developers so that ROMs can be worked on and distributed legally. I mean, it's obvious that devs aren't charging for their work, no one is making money off of doing this, and I don't believe they ever have. The only reason ROMs exist is because the ones we're given stock are absolute garbage 98% of the time. So HTC doesn't have any ground to stand on in that sense. A minimal fee simply to acknowledge that, yes, this person has permission to work on this software, would be an easy fix.
Though I do want to point out that I'm extremely tired at the moment, so I might not be thinking clearly XD
Well, that's what happens when you try to fix other people's work :?
jigglywiggly said:
Well, that's what happens when you try to fix other people's work :?
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Hack away HTC doesn't care about that.
What they do care about is those hosting official ROMs on unofficial servers <--- Its a no go they will shut them down fast
If more sites are hosting their official roms wouldnt that make them happy? I mean, wouldnt it put less strain on HTC's servers? Im just say'in.
Response I got from my message. Seems to end nicely anyway:
=========================
I understand your enthusiasm for customizing your HTC phone. Any HTC phone branded to a carrier is shipped with such software and features as the carrier requests - this is our mandate as the manufacturer. It's always been my belief that, having purchased a consumer product, it is your prerogative to do with it what you wish. But in technical support, we're in the position of only being able to certify, support, and warranty the functionality of the hardware and software on the network which uses the provided, up-to-date ROM. We cannot even broach the subject of custom ROMs, flashing, rooting, registry edits, etc. for liability reasons. An HTC phone user who, unlike yourself, may be less comfortable in this area or is perhaps less cautious, may render their phone entirely inoperable, and we would be entirely powerless to assist. Without being familiar with the particulars of the cease & desist letter you're speaking of, I can tell you a C&D letter is most commonly an obligatory procedural step in pursuit of copyright protection, as a request to stop distribution of possibly copyright-protected material (for example the device firmware or licensed operating system code embedded in a custom ROM image) before any further actions are taken. This need not be interpreted as a threat to any well-meaning online community forum of HTC phone enthusiasts.
To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number XXXXXXXXXXXX.
Sincerely,
sablesurfer said:
Response I got from my message. Seems to end nicely anyway:
=========================
This need not be interpreted as a threat to any well-meaning online community forum of HTC phone enthusiasts.
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translation: "we wouldn't dare go after XDA-developers.org"
lol
I haven't been able to root yet but all I know is thank you DEVS, not HTC. Because of the devs people are able to use the phone to its full potential. Maybe HTC can actually learn something from the devs here. Thank you.
Sent from my PC36100 usingnr XDA Apps
Keep in mind that HTC likely receives pressure from carriers when things like "WiFi Tethering" become unbillable and available to rooted devices. The carrier-branded devices we receive are built-to-spec and neutered by the carriers.
EVOmaniac07 said:
Maybe HTC can actually learn something from the devs here.
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It has been pretty obvious over the years that HTC does learn a lot from XDA.
I like that response. It confirms what we have all been thinking.
Why are people always so hard on Sprint and HTC? I mean, they are companies doing their jobs! They can't possibly cater everyone. They have to go by a standard. How else is Sprint going to become the best network if they don't charge people for their services...and they are still cheaper than others! HTC has to comply with Sprint standards so they can keep making Sprint phones. Now if HTC was a "custom" phone maker (there's an idea), then that's a different story. I truly love this community and understand some of the hate comments on here...but come on. We are all grown ups here and is common sense. Sorry for sounding harsh, I just get tired of all the childish hate comments.
sent from HTC Evo through Tapatalk
MrX8503 said:
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, they'll get their legal department right on those coding fixes for ya
RANT ON:
While happily chugging along on some of the stuff that I hope to release to you all, I've made a very disturbing discovery, which makes me feel almost like the Big Man turning green. Angry. Pissed. Greatly disappointed!
First some background.
Everyone worth their 'droid knows about the Cease & Desist letter sent to Cyanogen.
Many of us know the same happened to Conflipper from Shipped ROMs.
Rumor has it the same happened to samsung-firmwares.com
Yet it appears there are still people around who like poking at the beehive (yes, killer bees!) that is the phone industry and their armies of lawyers. Things that are GUARANTEED to piss them off BigTime.
I'm not going to drop list of names here, I hope their conscience will speak to them on a quiet night or something.
The morale?
STOP CHARGING MONEY FOR THINGS THAT AREN'T YOURS TO SELL!
HELP PEOPLE GET WHAT THEY CAN ALREADY GET FOR FREE!
Besides being against the rules of most mod/tweak/hack forums out there, charging for someone else's stuff is probably the biggest reason for lawyers to go after websites hosting 'official', 'unofficial', 'leaked' etc. ROMs: lawyers merely have to google for "premium membership", "costs", "donations" etcetera.
Please people, stop doing this, or there will be a time when Samsung, Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Nokia and whoever else will simply pull the plug on online firmware updates and start telling people to take their phones to the shop for updating, eFuse and all. Needless to say, the vibe of the modding community will suffer with it.
I was the first (as far as I can tell) to post about Kies test mode, I'm willing to put time and effort in making a tool to allow people to update to and backup ANY firmware using just Kies (no need even for a registry hack), maybe even use Kies update module on non-Windows OSes (well, those that support Wine), help with developing Heimdall, fixing the FM radio, etcetera. Please allow others and me to go on doing this.
So:
- Don't steal others' work only to lock it up and start charging money for using it.
- Be honest and open about your discoveries.
- Be respectful of the services you use, don't hammer them needlessly.
...and the list goes on.
RANT OFF
What's this all about? No need to pay for firmware update requests, use Kies and one or two simple, free tools (coming soon) to get them. Less noise in the forums about the inner workings, which could attract angry lawyers from far away.
That's all.
Well said mista, lets hope some take note.
i mean really?
I thought samsung-firmwares.com got a cease and desist because of having Samsung in the name and make people assume they own and are responsible for the site...thats why Samsung-firmwares made a new site with a different name..
Hmm, why mention Cyanogen's cease and desist letter in a post that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? It's not like Cyanogen was asking money for anything and the reason behind his C&D was entirely different.
As for Samsung-firmwares.com, they had it coming and got what they deserved (and obviously didn't get it at all, looking at their current activities...)
Case_ said:
Hmm, why mention Cyanogen's cease and desist letter in a post that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? It's not like Cyanogen was asking money for anything and the reason behind his C&D was entirely different.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, he wasn't asking money. I added him to show that lawyers can be set off barking at anyone involved in hosting OR selling someone elses intellectual property. I should have been more clear about that.
As much as I think that IP is just imaginary property, I cherish the modding community and their great work too much. I'd hate to see the same happening to us.
Hah! Just seen the new Samsung firmwares temporary page. This is just priceless. For those who don't understand Czech, they say there that everyone from Czech republic is blocked from the site and can't even register for their "premium services", because, apparently, "Czech people were spreading our firmwares illegally".
Edit: Sorry. As it was just explained to me by the owner of Samsung firmwares, the site on that URL has nothing to do with them anymore and apparently is someone's idea of a great joke...
Read this link. Read it carefully. It's not just about Google being able to run whatever code they like on your devices, it's about Google DOING it, remotely, without any user intervention/confirmation.
What's next ? Let me throw some wild and far fetched guesses...
* Applanet like apps being killed off on the devices to fight piracy...
* Anything not from the market being wiped out from time to time, for the same reason...
* Users are hunted down and being prosecuted for piracy based on their devices content...
* The system is rigged/updated to block inappropriate content, such as pedophile sites...
* Users are being prosecuted for possessing and/or visiting inappropriate content/providers...
* The "inappropriate" extends to warez sites and regular porn sites, "bad" users are still prosecuted...
* The "inappropriate" extend to the "wrong" political sites, "bad" users are still prosecuted...
* .......
I bet you get the idea. And yea, i know i am taking it too far, but still
PS: Let me add something... the builds we are running on our HD2 are often partially illegal (gaps) etc... hint hint
maybe a little paranoid, ok, well maybe a lot
InfX said:
* The system is rigged/updated to block inappropriate content, such as pedophile sites...
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Click to collapse
not sure why you mentioned this, anyone in their right mind would welcome this particular point.
kam333 said:
maybe a little paranoid, ok, well maybe a lot
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A lot, exaggerated to the max, of course. But that doesn't turn what Google does right.
kam333 said:
not sure why you mentioned this, anyone in their right mind would welcome this particular point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats EXACTLY why i mentioned it.
InfX said:
A lot, exaggerated to the max, of course. But that doesn't turn what Google does right.
Thats EXACTLY why i mentioned it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
personally, i think google already knows tooooo much about its users, but in the case of malware, google is definitely the lesser of the 2 evils
let me ask you this, would you rather the big G have some remote access to your device or hackers collecting your personal info. Its the connected world, there's no turning back!!!
only real solution for anyone worried about companies interfering with their device... remove the sim card... for ever.
gnight & dont have nightmares
kam333 said:
would you rather the big G have some remote access to your device or hackers collecting your personal info.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guess what... neither of those
Also, there are terrorists under the bed,chemtrails in the sky, bromine in the water,drug dealers at the school gates, drunks on fones in cars, bondage freaks at work,human traffickers, religious zealots bent coppers paedo nursery workers racists fanatics and plain clothes Google operatives spreading FUD in forums cos its cheaper and gets more results than million pound lawsuits. Oh and bloody clowns.
Just a random outpouring,please continue.
Infx may sound paranoid, and no person of any kind of moral decency would condone anbody using pedophelia porn or any other form of content that causes any kind of harm to anyone. But those are matters for the authorities to deal with, not google. If the internet's morality policies were enforced by a huge internet based company, wouldn't that be considered some kind of a conflict of interests somehow? I mean imagine if Disney were the biggest internet company, we'd never see so much as a single cuss-word or titty. Big companies shouldn't be able to impose their own commercialized morals upon users, the internet will inevitably grow more and more watered down. I don't consider myself a paranoid person, but this type of issue stinks of denial of 1st amendment rights, one step closer to completely government/corporate filtered news-tainment, and corporate control of the masses.
Huggs, i totally agree, thata why i posted this, not because i am actualluly that paranoid (would i still use Internet if i was ?). What i tried to do in my post is to demonstrate a worst case scenario, how would google start with somethimg that should be totally accepted by everyone (fighting pedophily) yet slowly move to fighting things we no longer want it to fight (political opinions).
PS: This little remote control thing is the first step for a corporate giant to become a corporate government, a corporate dictator. And the onlu things corporations care for is money, not their users.
PPS: Just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree.
I like that idea: http://code.google.com/p/open-android-alliance/
InfX said:
Guess what... neither of those
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you really dont have a great deal of options
android, rim, ios & wp7 all have the ability to "spy" on their users to some degree,
mostly its just basic info such as: gps location, installed apps & how often they're used, crash logs, etc
some apps on ios have been caught out sending even more personal data. The point is, whilst i dont disagree fully with your concerns, i do see your post as somewhat hysterical.
There was no suggestion in the article you linked (or any other that ive read) that google is planning any of things you mentioned, so why mention them, as doing so only makes you a part of the current media trend of FUD as samsamuel put it.
this isnt about deny that all companies are in it 1st for the £$€, then customer welfare further down the list, im talking about being realistic. at this moment in time i cannot see google taking the path that you suggested, i also have far more immediate and real life things to focus on.
im all for a good conspiracy theory, fema detention camps springing up all over the usa (REX 84), the western so called "powers" planting the seeds of unrest in africa & the middle east so they can insert more puppets to secure natural resources (be it oil, gold, diamonds...), i could go on, but this isnt the place.
so let bring it back to google, you are in denial if you think cyber crime isnt going on, and with the rise of the smartphones we will see a rise of cyber crims trying to gain access. so i ask again who would you rather have access to your device?
if you still think or say neither, il know for sure you have lost the plot or you have taken my advice & binned your sim card cause thats the only other option you have.
@huggs, normally your post are quite informative & rational, that last post wasnt imho
no one was talking about censorship, the 1 point about google blocking access to child porn is something i would vote for, this has nothing to do with internet policing, you say thats down to the authorities, but they are not all seeing (no yet anyway) hence the use of informants by law enforcement the world wide, n thats all i would support. yes its possible that you give them a small mandate they will take it further but il worry about that IF the signs arise.
ppl who get there kick this way should have no rights, & should be actively hunted by whatever methods are available & taken out of the general population.
P.S.
Man i would love to have such a care free life that i need to start imagining then stressing about what may or may not happen, but i dont, my concerns are here & now, What you are talking about ISNT.
sorry for the lengthy post but your suggestions/posts are a subtle form of propaganda and a 1 line response really wouldn't cut it.
all the best
Kam
I say if we are doing something wrong and get caught that's our own fault.
How is it illegal? Isn't android open license ie freeware?
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
@kam333, i may be way less paranoid than you may think, mind the fact i've posted this as a VERY far-fetched and unrealistic speculation that only got slim to nil chance of actually happening, but it does demonstrate a possibility of undoubtedly good things becoming a base to slowly advance into nasty control-it-all direction. And, yea, your suggestion about binning the SIM card won't work. I still got WiFi
@dung8604, search the net about why Cyanogen mod no longer includes Google apps.
Well, I'm running a cooked rom without a Google account set up. So I can cross that off of the paranoid list.
I can't say I'm surprised by anything written in the article.
Did a quick search and from what i can tell, only Google apps are proprietary. Nothing about the OS itself though
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Is it just me, or is it weird that XDA disallows the posting of xap files for paid apps, but has a forum for HD2's running WP7?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
it's just you.
Hagenlund said:
it's just you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
munkeyphyst said:
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because its completley and utterly different.
If your moaning because you cant post/download warez here, go away, there are other forums for that, XDA is not the place.
I'm not advocating piracy at all. I just don't understand the double standard, or how it's "completley(sic) and utterly different"
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I think this thread is useless. I mean, why will you complain about something that is almost a miracle, that DFT made for us? Didn't you like that we can now run almost all smartphones OS on our HD2?
Man, I think you should review about your questions...
On the contrary, we need gripe and complaint threads so we can piss and moan without cluttering up the real threads. Not like I would post a complaint... people here are ruthless.
And I agree. It's laughable that I can come to these forums and hack the crap out of my phone with pirated OS software but I can't find apps to go with it.
Saw a ROM thread shut down for stuff like this. Ridiculous considering the ROM itself is PIRATED AND STOLEN... btw ty DFT
I equate it to the term military intelligence... just don't make no sense.
Its in microsoft's best interest to let as many people experience WP7 as they can, because then eventually they would want their next device be an ACTUAL WP7 device.
In terms of policy, why fix something that aint broke? If MS had a problem, they would have had this forum removed a long time ago. But even after months, it still exists.
And since you are already posting from a WP7 device, I would say the question is, why would u post this here? no hostility intended, just wondering....
One answer to the question - and I'm not saying it's the correct one - is that paid for XAPs are, by definition, available for sale through commercial channels. Posting them on here for free is clearly theft.
A mobile phone OS is supplied with hardware in order to make the hardware operate. It is not available to buy as a standalone product - Windows 7 for PC is a purchasable product; WP7 for mobile is not a purchasable product.
Just because there is no specific price to a product doesn't necessarily mean it's free, but it's that bit more difficult to cry 'thief'.
Arguably MS has more to gain from the extended testing offered by this community and it seems to me that MS tend to talk more about 'not supported' than 'not allowed' when it comes to people using WP7 on HD2 devices.
Therefore ROMs are tolerated, warez are not.
It may be harder to prove legally, WP7 may be a product that isn't for sale publicly, and Microsoft might look the other way, but that doesn't mean it still isn't stealing. Wrong is wrong regardless how one spins it.
I am thankful to all those in this community for their efforts and achievements, and I am glad that Microsoft is allowing this to continue, but let's face it... if you want to hack up and redistribute someone else's intellectual property they spent years and millions developing, you should go to work for Microsoft or pay them for the rights to use it.
Fact is, to sanction one form of stealing and ban another is a double standard.
Keep up the good work all. More free apps.. down with greedy bastards!!
I would guess that if the site was seen to breaking the law, MS would come after it and the ROM's would be taken down. The mere fact that the site has been hosting MS roms for ages now (not just WM7) also suggests MS can either do little about it or don't want to. It has to be the latter but the OP still raises an interesting question.
bisoner said:
I would guess that if the site was seen to breaking the law, MS would come after it and the ROM's would be taken down. The mere fact that the site has been hosting MS roms for ages now (not just WM7) also suggests MS can either do little about it or don't want to. It has to be the latter but the OP still raises an interesting question.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When cooking a WM ROM to put replace/use on a device already running WM you are basically modifying something that you already own, the WM OS.
Android is open source, and even though you still taking the someone else's extensive work with the open source and hacking it and using it, it typically is used in the same fashion, to replace an existing Andriod OS.
The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair, is public domain, and anyone can publish the text without royalties. It is, essentially, "opensource". However, it is illegal to photocopy and distribute my published edition of the book, with my artwork, my forewords and my apendixes filled with historical facts and data.
WP7 on an HD2 is different from all of these examples. It is ripping an OS from a device and distributing it illegally to others. If this was done with Windows 7 on a PC, no one would defend this. It would clearly be piracy.
Honestly, when I first heard of the WP7 port onto HD2, I thought it was cool and considered going that route myself, mostly because I loved the hardware. I'm not casting judgement on anyone.
I have read through many threads where mods came in and banned something that might be piracy.
There was a thread discussing the actual numbers of WP7 apps where a huge piracy debate ensued just because a screen shot showing the number of available apps might have also shown software that could be used to pirate software.
This comes up again in threads where device specific software is .xap'ed and made available to other devices.
It's a fuzzy line as to what XDA deems ok and what it will squash, eventhough I think the line of what is legal and what is not is far less fuzzy.
I brought the topic here, because this forum exists in it's entirety within that fuzzy gray area. I thought that maybe I was missing something, maybe MS ok'ed this, or maybe there was some mobile device OS exclusion that I was unaware of.
XDA is the way it is, I guess.
"sharing" paid apps is "piracy" and banned
"sharing" device specific apps is "research" and usually ok, even if they are paid apps elsewhere in the universe and are obviously used to entice buyers to specific handsets
"sharing" an OS is... ? "idk, stop asking," even if it isn't open source and can only be purchased with a device.
My 2 cents
From my perspective I would gladly pay Microsoft for WP7 for the HD2 if they would offer it. Just like I gladly pay for apps that are offered as such as well. The reason I think it is not a double standard to rip WP7 and not paid apps is evident in how Microsoft is handling the issue. They know that from a customer service standpoint is it ridiculous not to offer WP7 for the HD2. But like they said, the button layout doesn't quite work and I'm not sure they want to take the time and money creating support for the OS on the HD2.
Enter XDA: Microsoft thinks: Here's a group of folks that will do all that for us. So we lose a few bucks by not forcing people to buy the HD7 right now. Heck, people have always been pissed at us for doing that kind of thing anyway. Why don't we let these guys do their thing, keep the HD2 owners happy, and win some new customers with our sweet new OS. This way they never call us and we save time and money by not supporting the OS but we also look nice as we don't call them on it and ask them to stop.
And in my opinion, it's working. We baulked at Windows mobile compared to iOS or Android but MS has a good thing going with WP7. I'm interested.
And I trust that Microsoft need only ask and XDA would stop producing WP7 for HD2.
actually i really agree on what the OP brought up i mean its an amazing achievement and something that is mind blowing to have WP7, Android whatever your taste is on to our device but yeah i do think there is some sort of grey area in the piracy policy but without piracy where would we be? its a hate love thing i guess the bad thing about downloading Paid XAPs is that they werent meant to be downloaded illegaly and i bet all of us have done the crime, who here hasnt downloaded Windows 7 OS for your PC and run it illegaly? or XP or even MAC? we all do it yet its in a weird way acceptable but programs on the other hand seem to be viewed in a different way..i guess because an actual individual and not a REAL wall street company created these apps it hurts them more since i guess they expect to earn income and to some extent is what they do for a living..who knows..i guess thats my point of view on this...this isnt a useless thread is quite a smart question/topic on whats legal and whats illegal to do on here
while the OP theoretically makes a good point here's how it works practically:
*MS obviously doesn't give a **** because they've sent no C&D and they even give us keys when we say we're using an HD2
*This does not take any money away from MS because they won't sell us a WP7 license anyways
*No one actually is making ANY money from doing this EXCEPT wp7 developers.
*It is a gray area, and since there has been no C&D of any sort then it is totally different than cracking a paid app and distributing it, because the developers do care and do lose money and it is black and white
*W'eve seen these threads a thousand times and we're pretty sick of all the same arguments, that's why you're getting some vitriol, like that guy at the party who gets drunk and tells you the same "remember when I scored that touchdown?" story he's told you 5 gazillion times.
I agree. Posting Paid Apps that developers made is wrong. this is their way of living to gain an income. Besides if you wanted paid Xaps for free google search the name of the xap and put a sharing behind im sure you will come up with results.
CZARSUPERSTAR.
HD2
2 CLIQS
MYTOUCH 3.5
TMOBILE COMET
COBY KYROS TABLET
Agree 100% with orangekid.
Just want to add that MS itself has only to gain with this:
- They get money for each app bought and some services you use from them
- And guess what, they don't have to bother getting resources for supporting the HD2, as officially it is unsupported.
So, actually, everybody gains with WP7 in the HD2. Did you really think that MS was getting rich with the 10€ or so each WP7 license costs the manufacter?
It's all fun and games until someone is hurt. Nobody is being hurt or damaged. Although one might say that phone manufacters could be losing sales as people may buy an HD2 and run WP7 on it... But perhaps it is not significant enough...
On first blush, the "microsoft aint doing nothing about it so obviously it's ok" argument seems lame, but it may be somewhat valid. Maybe MS should get some props for allowing something like this to pass. I don't believe it's a matter of "not worth their time" or "nothing they can do about it". They shut down VistaTorrent, http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2006/06/30/microsoft-delivers-cease-and-desist-order-in-a-frame/, when they were distributing a free, open to the public, beta version. They put a stop to the Chevron team. As someone said, they could probably just ask XDA and this forum would go away. Maybe they will some day, who knows.
Is it true that you can call MS and tell them you're trying to install WP7 on an HD2 and they will just give you a reg number?
munkeyphyst said:
On first blush, the "microsoft aint doing nothing about it so obviously it's ok" argument seems lame, but it may be somewhat valid. Maybe MS should get some props for allowing something like this to pass. I don't believe it's a matter of "not worth their time" or "nothing they can do about it". They shut down VistaTorrent, http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2006/06/30/microsoft-delivers-cease-and-desist-order-in-a-frame/, when they were distributing a free, open to the public, beta version. They put a stop to the Chevron team. As someone said, they could probably just ask XDA and this forum would go away. Maybe they will some day, who knows.
Is it true that you can call MS and tell them you're trying to install WP7 on an HD2 and they will just give you a reg number?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From many reports in the threads talking about reg keys users have said they told reps they were using an HD2 and were still given the key
munkeyphyst said:
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. When you buy a mobile phone, you cant choose a special OS for it (like Windows, Linux, Mac OS for a PC, the reason is that the software manufacturers don't do that because it is too complex, not everyone knows how to flash correctly a device) so you get an OS with it
2. The device manufacturers like HTC pays in advance the licence fees for the OS when selling the phone. So when you buy it, you pay automaticly the licence fee which is not so much then a licence for a regular pc. Android for exemple is free to use, for Windows phone/mobile the manufacturer pays normally 20$ for each device sold.
3. The device is already pre-installed
4. I called once microsoft and told them that I have a HD2 with WP7 and the agent told me that it is not supportet by them, but not illegal.
Hello,
I'm not sure if this is the best place for this post, but it's the smartest, and largest android based community I know
I wanted to know where would be the best place for me to look for a hardware engineer. The caveat would be I need to find someone willing to talk a bit first before actually being paid. I need the help of one so I can make a more sound mock-up of what I'm doing and planning prices before talking to the VCs I have contacts for. That said, I COULD always find a way to basically hire a hardware engineer for consulting but I would really want to find a hardware engineer somewhat as passionate as I am about quality and creativity forward thinking. I already have a few software teams in mind to ask but will only do so once I have the funding.
So my question to you at XDA, where would I go about doing this? I should also mention the engineer I would look for would need to know about mobile phones. The thing is, I CAN start prototyping and the funding process using generic insides from a chinese phone BUT the end goal for me is custom hardware with the utmost care and quality put into it. So I would basically be lying to VCs (which let's be honest, everyone does) but then I would be delayed in having a hardware engineer still, and I'd rather have as much time to get the ball rolling as possible. Hell even if the hardware engineer could give advice on the future and pricing but says going with chinese insides until the money comes in would work.
I just have no idea where to find one, craigslist, ask around from friends, post at a certain website? Luckily what I will be doing for the next year shouldn't take the engineer more than a couple hours a week if even. So for quite a few months it should be pretty low key for them if they wanted to keep doing whatever job they were doing until I could afford to hire them full time. In about 6 months I want to start the prototyping to have early look units available for reviewers by November/December of this year.
Thank you for taking the time to read and help! If anyone is curious without saying too much I am looking towards making a pure android ubuntu edge quality phone, but most likely higher quality. The end goal is to use the main funding to make a phone directly aimed at the wants of you guys at XDA, but that's at least a year or so away sadly, and first things first.
iytrix said:
Hello,I'm not sure if this is the best place for this post, but it's the smartest, and largest android based community I know I wanted to know where would be the best place for me to look for a hardware engineer. The caveat would be I need to find someone willing to talk a bit first before actually being paid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're in San Jose!! They grow on trees there! Just get some kid on the street and half their family will be HW engineers.
Anyway, this is the right place, but you are basically saying that they should "talk" to you, for free, for a while. So I doubt anyone would come forward. At least that's my experience in reading and seeing similar posts here in the last 2 years. Why would someone with the know how, risk spending months talking HW details, just to find him/herself abandoned?
You're project seem very noble and tasty, but we have to repackage it with some better incentives.
E:V:A said:
You're in San Jose!! They grow on trees there! Just get some kid on the street and half their family will be HW engineers..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hahahaha! So true! I remember when I first was looking to move out with a roommate almost EVERYONE was an "engineer" of some sort.
In hindsight I shouldn't have deleted the quote to respond. I think I remember all of what you said.
Yeah I understand that fully. This has just been an idea brewing in my head for about 3 or so years and my original plan was to befriend someone that was a hardware engineer and after building trust and enthusiasm start working on things. Me personally, I would do all of this for no profit on my part. Do I want it? Yes, but I only care about food, living, car payments, and getting this project rolling. I would like to work with people passionate enough about this to have a close mindset, but I realize that's not realistic, especially since it's my idea I'm asking people to believe in enough to work for it.
I think what I will probably have to do is, once I get enough stuff written up to present to an engineer to entice them on the project, also get some contract ready that promises them some share in things. The only thing is that could get very messy, and I would also need to add some more binding things so that they couldn't just leave on their own and take some profits, but I know I will need SOME way to entice people to want to work on this beyond just showing them the plan and idea.
I'm also trying to get in the more professional mindset. Making new company named emails and profiles so when I talk to people it's not just from a personal account. For XDA though I assumed people would take a senior member a lot more seriously than a brand new account though.
Are you from the Bay Area as well or do you just know of it? I find it weird that in this area people want to know investors and have their teams. I am in the opposite position where I have no team but have investors I am able to get a meeting with.
As a side note, a main reason why this turned from an idea to a thing that I HAD to do is I was getting fed up with all the phones that are coming out. There are many markets and categories missing from phones and I am hoping I can be the one to fill the gaps. I see tons of complaints online on various aspects of phones and so few companies seem to listen. Then once in a while a phone seems to be close to perfect and then the company doesn't ever come close again or removes wanted features. My only real fear is if the market moves too fast with some proprietary tech. But seeing as we've had bendable screens for...what 3 years now and the most we've gotten is slightly curved phones no one likes? I hope to change that, to get people more interested and caring for their phones.
Just figure out where they hang out online, and post...
You could post wherever idle HW engineers go to look for jobs too.
And there is no such thing as an "unemployed engineer".... They're (we're) consultants / contractors in between assignments, LOL.
mikereidis said:
Just figure out where they hang out online, and post...
You could post wherever idle HW engineers go to look for jobs too.
And there is no such thing as an "unemployed engineer".... They're (we're) consultants / contractors in between assignments, LOL.
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That's why I'm here to see if anyone knew where they went to hang out online haha. How would I go about that? Like a site or forums that's like a github for engineers instead of coders (although github is more pure code.....stack overflow I should say, but I think I make enough sense).
Haha! That seems very true. I'm sure I could find one to help me at least get the planning done but I would love to find one who wants to see this project through and through, and stay on for the full production of the phones, and the other ones I plan on making in the following years if this one succeeds.
Oh and, since from what you've said you SEEM to be a hardware engineer, how would I go about asking for the right kind? Could anyone with a degree or knowledge be able to easily adapt to making phones properly, or would I need to ask for one with a certain specialty? If so, what's the official term for the specialty?