Is it just me, or is it weird that XDA disallows the posting of xap files for paid apps, but has a forum for HD2's running WP7?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
it's just you.
Hagenlund said:
it's just you.
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ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
munkeyphyst said:
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
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Because its completley and utterly different.
If your moaning because you cant post/download warez here, go away, there are other forums for that, XDA is not the place.
I'm not advocating piracy at all. I just don't understand the double standard, or how it's "completley(sic) and utterly different"
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I think this thread is useless. I mean, why will you complain about something that is almost a miracle, that DFT made for us? Didn't you like that we can now run almost all smartphones OS on our HD2?
Man, I think you should review about your questions...
On the contrary, we need gripe and complaint threads so we can piss and moan without cluttering up the real threads. Not like I would post a complaint... people here are ruthless.
And I agree. It's laughable that I can come to these forums and hack the crap out of my phone with pirated OS software but I can't find apps to go with it.
Saw a ROM thread shut down for stuff like this. Ridiculous considering the ROM itself is PIRATED AND STOLEN... btw ty DFT
I equate it to the term military intelligence... just don't make no sense.
Its in microsoft's best interest to let as many people experience WP7 as they can, because then eventually they would want their next device be an ACTUAL WP7 device.
In terms of policy, why fix something that aint broke? If MS had a problem, they would have had this forum removed a long time ago. But even after months, it still exists.
And since you are already posting from a WP7 device, I would say the question is, why would u post this here? no hostility intended, just wondering....
One answer to the question - and I'm not saying it's the correct one - is that paid for XAPs are, by definition, available for sale through commercial channels. Posting them on here for free is clearly theft.
A mobile phone OS is supplied with hardware in order to make the hardware operate. It is not available to buy as a standalone product - Windows 7 for PC is a purchasable product; WP7 for mobile is not a purchasable product.
Just because there is no specific price to a product doesn't necessarily mean it's free, but it's that bit more difficult to cry 'thief'.
Arguably MS has more to gain from the extended testing offered by this community and it seems to me that MS tend to talk more about 'not supported' than 'not allowed' when it comes to people using WP7 on HD2 devices.
Therefore ROMs are tolerated, warez are not.
It may be harder to prove legally, WP7 may be a product that isn't for sale publicly, and Microsoft might look the other way, but that doesn't mean it still isn't stealing. Wrong is wrong regardless how one spins it.
I am thankful to all those in this community for their efforts and achievements, and I am glad that Microsoft is allowing this to continue, but let's face it... if you want to hack up and redistribute someone else's intellectual property they spent years and millions developing, you should go to work for Microsoft or pay them for the rights to use it.
Fact is, to sanction one form of stealing and ban another is a double standard.
Keep up the good work all. More free apps.. down with greedy bastards!!
I would guess that if the site was seen to breaking the law, MS would come after it and the ROM's would be taken down. The mere fact that the site has been hosting MS roms for ages now (not just WM7) also suggests MS can either do little about it or don't want to. It has to be the latter but the OP still raises an interesting question.
bisoner said:
I would guess that if the site was seen to breaking the law, MS would come after it and the ROM's would be taken down. The mere fact that the site has been hosting MS roms for ages now (not just WM7) also suggests MS can either do little about it or don't want to. It has to be the latter but the OP still raises an interesting question.
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When cooking a WM ROM to put replace/use on a device already running WM you are basically modifying something that you already own, the WM OS.
Android is open source, and even though you still taking the someone else's extensive work with the open source and hacking it and using it, it typically is used in the same fashion, to replace an existing Andriod OS.
The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair, is public domain, and anyone can publish the text without royalties. It is, essentially, "opensource". However, it is illegal to photocopy and distribute my published edition of the book, with my artwork, my forewords and my apendixes filled with historical facts and data.
WP7 on an HD2 is different from all of these examples. It is ripping an OS from a device and distributing it illegally to others. If this was done with Windows 7 on a PC, no one would defend this. It would clearly be piracy.
Honestly, when I first heard of the WP7 port onto HD2, I thought it was cool and considered going that route myself, mostly because I loved the hardware. I'm not casting judgement on anyone.
I have read through many threads where mods came in and banned something that might be piracy.
There was a thread discussing the actual numbers of WP7 apps where a huge piracy debate ensued just because a screen shot showing the number of available apps might have also shown software that could be used to pirate software.
This comes up again in threads where device specific software is .xap'ed and made available to other devices.
It's a fuzzy line as to what XDA deems ok and what it will squash, eventhough I think the line of what is legal and what is not is far less fuzzy.
I brought the topic here, because this forum exists in it's entirety within that fuzzy gray area. I thought that maybe I was missing something, maybe MS ok'ed this, or maybe there was some mobile device OS exclusion that I was unaware of.
XDA is the way it is, I guess.
"sharing" paid apps is "piracy" and banned
"sharing" device specific apps is "research" and usually ok, even if they are paid apps elsewhere in the universe and are obviously used to entice buyers to specific handsets
"sharing" an OS is... ? "idk, stop asking," even if it isn't open source and can only be purchased with a device.
My 2 cents
From my perspective I would gladly pay Microsoft for WP7 for the HD2 if they would offer it. Just like I gladly pay for apps that are offered as such as well. The reason I think it is not a double standard to rip WP7 and not paid apps is evident in how Microsoft is handling the issue. They know that from a customer service standpoint is it ridiculous not to offer WP7 for the HD2. But like they said, the button layout doesn't quite work and I'm not sure they want to take the time and money creating support for the OS on the HD2.
Enter XDA: Microsoft thinks: Here's a group of folks that will do all that for us. So we lose a few bucks by not forcing people to buy the HD7 right now. Heck, people have always been pissed at us for doing that kind of thing anyway. Why don't we let these guys do their thing, keep the HD2 owners happy, and win some new customers with our sweet new OS. This way they never call us and we save time and money by not supporting the OS but we also look nice as we don't call them on it and ask them to stop.
And in my opinion, it's working. We baulked at Windows mobile compared to iOS or Android but MS has a good thing going with WP7. I'm interested.
And I trust that Microsoft need only ask and XDA would stop producing WP7 for HD2.
actually i really agree on what the OP brought up i mean its an amazing achievement and something that is mind blowing to have WP7, Android whatever your taste is on to our device but yeah i do think there is some sort of grey area in the piracy policy but without piracy where would we be? its a hate love thing i guess the bad thing about downloading Paid XAPs is that they werent meant to be downloaded illegaly and i bet all of us have done the crime, who here hasnt downloaded Windows 7 OS for your PC and run it illegaly? or XP or even MAC? we all do it yet its in a weird way acceptable but programs on the other hand seem to be viewed in a different way..i guess because an actual individual and not a REAL wall street company created these apps it hurts them more since i guess they expect to earn income and to some extent is what they do for a living..who knows..i guess thats my point of view on this...this isnt a useless thread is quite a smart question/topic on whats legal and whats illegal to do on here
while the OP theoretically makes a good point here's how it works practically:
*MS obviously doesn't give a **** because they've sent no C&D and they even give us keys when we say we're using an HD2
*This does not take any money away from MS because they won't sell us a WP7 license anyways
*No one actually is making ANY money from doing this EXCEPT wp7 developers.
*It is a gray area, and since there has been no C&D of any sort then it is totally different than cracking a paid app and distributing it, because the developers do care and do lose money and it is black and white
*W'eve seen these threads a thousand times and we're pretty sick of all the same arguments, that's why you're getting some vitriol, like that guy at the party who gets drunk and tells you the same "remember when I scored that touchdown?" story he's told you 5 gazillion times.
I agree. Posting Paid Apps that developers made is wrong. this is their way of living to gain an income. Besides if you wanted paid Xaps for free google search the name of the xap and put a sharing behind im sure you will come up with results.
CZARSUPERSTAR.
HD2
2 CLIQS
MYTOUCH 3.5
TMOBILE COMET
COBY KYROS TABLET
Agree 100% with orangekid.
Just want to add that MS itself has only to gain with this:
- They get money for each app bought and some services you use from them
- And guess what, they don't have to bother getting resources for supporting the HD2, as officially it is unsupported.
So, actually, everybody gains with WP7 in the HD2. Did you really think that MS was getting rich with the 10€ or so each WP7 license costs the manufacter?
It's all fun and games until someone is hurt. Nobody is being hurt or damaged. Although one might say that phone manufacters could be losing sales as people may buy an HD2 and run WP7 on it... But perhaps it is not significant enough...
On first blush, the "microsoft aint doing nothing about it so obviously it's ok" argument seems lame, but it may be somewhat valid. Maybe MS should get some props for allowing something like this to pass. I don't believe it's a matter of "not worth their time" or "nothing they can do about it". They shut down VistaTorrent, http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2006/06/30/microsoft-delivers-cease-and-desist-order-in-a-frame/, when they were distributing a free, open to the public, beta version. They put a stop to the Chevron team. As someone said, they could probably just ask XDA and this forum would go away. Maybe they will some day, who knows.
Is it true that you can call MS and tell them you're trying to install WP7 on an HD2 and they will just give you a reg number?
munkeyphyst said:
On first blush, the "microsoft aint doing nothing about it so obviously it's ok" argument seems lame, but it may be somewhat valid. Maybe MS should get some props for allowing something like this to pass. I don't believe it's a matter of "not worth their time" or "nothing they can do about it". They shut down VistaTorrent, http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2006/06/30/microsoft-delivers-cease-and-desist-order-in-a-frame/, when they were distributing a free, open to the public, beta version. They put a stop to the Chevron team. As someone said, they could probably just ask XDA and this forum would go away. Maybe they will some day, who knows.
Is it true that you can call MS and tell them you're trying to install WP7 on an HD2 and they will just give you a reg number?
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From many reports in the threads talking about reg keys users have said they told reps they were using an HD2 and were still given the key
munkeyphyst said:
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
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1. When you buy a mobile phone, you cant choose a special OS for it (like Windows, Linux, Mac OS for a PC, the reason is that the software manufacturers don't do that because it is too complex, not everyone knows how to flash correctly a device) so you get an OS with it
2. The device manufacturers like HTC pays in advance the licence fees for the OS when selling the phone. So when you buy it, you pay automaticly the licence fee which is not so much then a licence for a regular pc. Android for exemple is free to use, for Windows phone/mobile the manufacturer pays normally 20$ for each device sold.
3. The device is already pre-installed
4. I called once microsoft and told them that I have a HD2 with WP7 and the agent told me that it is not supportet by them, but not illegal.
Related
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...Track=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us
I came across this looking for an 8525, it seems that he may be using the FREE programs available on here. I would say whoever created them go after this guy because it's obviously not fair he is using what you created to profit without you getting anything for it. I'm not 100% sure if he is use the programs from here, but I mean how many Sim/CID unlock program are really out there for the 8525?
I just reported the item to ebay, this is JJ's stuff and other members hard work.
Lurch3559 said:
I just reported the item to ebay, this is JJ's stuff and other members hard work.
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maybe a copy of SPL-****er will be worming its way to him... nothing to do with me of course ^_^
You're welcome guys .
Yeah thats a bunch of bull****. i was looking on ebay the other day for a broken wizard and i saw someone selling a program that would load farias wm6 rom onto their phone. I reported that **** right away. There are so many people on here that are so talented and make so much awesome programs and not charge us a dime for it, but then you got dicks like that guy who decides to profit off of other peoples hard work. Death to that ****er.
Really classy how he was going to put commercial video game ROMs onto the phone/memory card too.
Not only was this guy trying to rip off the individuals here at XDA-dev, but also large corporations as well...
S-M-R-T
chenga said:
Really classy how he was going to put commercial video game ROMs onto the phone/memory card too.
Not only was this guy trying to rip off the individuals here at XDA-dev, but also large corporations as well...
S-M-R-T
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I asked him about the programs and whether he developed them or not, here is the response I got:
"no not personally, but do talk to some of the developers and i donate some of my profit to them. any other questions feel free to ask
thanx
nate"
"i do cook my own roms if thats what you are asking, and just recieved an email asking me to remove this service and aparently reported to ebay, so i will not be able to offer this service at this time
sry
nate"
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Good Catch myztikal47.
I guess we can all help the developers here by keeping an eye out for this kind of crap.
I think it wouldn't be a bad Idea to have a sticky on this topic, something with an eye catching title, so more are aware of this issue, so as to be looking out for stinking thieves at places like ebay or craigslist.
I think it was only a question of time. There is no way how to block this. He can use new account, new name or whatever. we have similar problem on our forum, it is strictly technical forum about repairing TV, radio, video, SAT, PC... and we also have big storage with service manuals, service tips and few guys from us steal this infos from us and trying to profit on these! those information have price of gold, but is no help to stop this. So we decide for higher security, for restriction who can download files, and vice-versa etc. but here is not so easy I think, this will kill this forum.
wow he even had a picture of JJ rom on the page thats the lowest of low stealing and turning anround and making a profit off of it... His address is at the bottom of the page if anyone wants to send him a thank you card!
sinmae said:
I think it was only a question of time. There is no way how to block this. He can use new account, new name or whatever. we have similar problem on our forum, it is strictly technical forum about repairing TV, radio, video, SAT, PC... and we also have big storage with service manuals, service tips and few guys from us steal this infos from us and trying to profit on these! those information have price of gold, but is no help to stop this. So we decide for higher security, for restriction who can download files, and vice-versa etc. but here is not so easy I think, this will kill this forum.
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I don't think I take such a gloomy view. I agree it is impossible to stop someone selling a service and it is not in the spirit of this forum to sell either advice or cooked ROMs etc. But to play "devil's advocate" for a minute, what is it we object to? Is it that these folk are making money? Is it the lack of acknowledgement to the people who have put in all the development work? Is it the danger that selling this type of thing brings unwanted attention from M$ and telecom service providers?
I personally don't object to someone selling their time to help someone who lacks knowledge though they should tell the customer that they could learn for free from this site. If someone offered me cash to help them flash a ROM I don't think I'd feel guilty if I accepted money to do it. (Though I never have!).
I feel the main reason to block this kind of activity is that we already have unwanted attention from the likes of M$ without being associated with the sale of a service that relys on what M$ consider to be illegally altered M$ material. The very act of selling the service will bring a much harder approach from M$ IMO. No longer would we we seen as a bunch of keen dedicated geeky amateurs, but people out to profit illegally from M$ original work.
I notice on a brighter note that the two cases of this I am aware of are no longer available through ebay. In one case the individual has withdrawn the service and the other was removed by ebay.
EDIT: One of them is BACK
As a warning to others who might follow - selling a service or ROMs in this very public way is almost certainly illegal, particularly if bundled with a whole lot of other commercial games etc. If you want to take on the M$ legal team then this is a good way to go about it - remember it's not just the developers here that are not giving permission it is M$ original work that is being made available in a "corrupted" form.
Mike
This guy is back! But in a different flavor. I just found this today on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/CINGULAR-8525-HT...ryZ64355QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
He is WAAAAYYY overcharging on this phone. His justification? 1) the free upgrades found on this site, and 2) a CD of cracked illegal software.
And I fell sorry for this buyers who fell for his iPhone upgrade scam:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/HTC-CINGULAR-812...ryZ64355QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.ca/HTC-CINGULAR-812...ryZ64355QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I can't believe people fell for that!
this isnt that much different from offering a service to fix phones that users have broken. IE i upgraded to windows mobile 6 and now it doesnt turn on.
yes hes selling other peoples work but really the people that pay him arnt paying him for the software they are paying him for the knowledge he has gained from reading
i would offer a repair service for noobs but theres allready people doing it.
its actually no different to taking a black rom and not donating then complaining about it
tallshorty said:
And I fell sorry for this buyers who fell for his iPhone upgrade scam:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/HTC-CINGULAR-812...ryZ64355QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.ca/HTC-CINGULAR-812...ryZ64355QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I can't believe people fell for that!
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What is to say those buyers are not M$ trying to get the individuals information and then suing him later? Just a thought...
IMO it's fine for him to sell phone with the software pre-loaded on them already, thats like anyone on here selling their phone with all the hacks already done....but to actually have a service to install the software on the phone and profit from that, and not pay the people who created the software...well thats illegal, someone should just report him to Microsoft, they'll have a field day with him lol.
myztikal47 said:
IMO it's fine for him to sell phone with the software pre-loaded on them already, thats like anyone on here selling their phone with all the hacks already done....but to actually have a service to install the software on the phone and profit from that, and not pay the people who created the software...well thats illegal, someone should just report him to Microsoft, they'll have a field day with him lol.
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I agree with you on that but look at how much higher he is selling the phone because of the free softwares. It's the same as offering the service, basically.
he must need some money to be doing this...this guy must be a crack addict...or meth...yeah probably meth addict, anyways
I'm saddened to see stuff like this go on...coupled with these annoying noobs flooding the forums, m$ being ever so watchful, and the eventuality of newer devices...the great people of XDA might just get turned off from all of this...i know some are already extremely annoyed
...only time will tell
I have a close personal friend that works for Microsoft in their Windows Mobile team and I am going to forward this thread as well as the links to the ebay auctions over to him.
mikechannon said:
I don't think I take such a gloomy view. I agree it is impossible to stop someone selling a service and it is not in the spirit of this forum to sell either advice or cooked ROMs etc. But to play "devil's advocate" for a minute, what is it we object to? Is it that these folk are making money? Is it the lack of acknowledgement to the people who have put in all the development work? Is it the danger that selling this type of thing brings unwanted attention from M$ and telecom service providers?
I personally don't object to someone selling their time to help someone who lacks knowledge though they should tell the customer that they could learn for free from this site. If someone offered me cash to help them flash a ROM I don't think I'd feel guilty if I accepted money to do it. (Though I never have!).
I feel the main reason to block this kind of activity is that we already have unwanted attention from the likes of M$ without being associated with the sale of a service that relys on what M$ consider to be illegally altered M$ material. The very act of selling the service will bring a much harder approach from M$ IMO. No longer would we we seen as a bunch of keen dedicated geeky amateurs, but people out to profit illegally from M$ original work.
I notice on a brighter note that the two cases of this I am aware of are no longer available through ebay. In one case the individual has withdrawn the service and the other was removed by ebay.
EDIT: One of them is BACK
As a warning to others who might follow - selling a service or ROMs in this very public way is almost certainly illegal, particularly if bundled with a whole lot of other commercial games etc. If you want to take on the M$ legal team then this is a good way to go about it - remember it's not just the developers here that are not giving permission it is M$ original work that is being made available in a "corrupted" form.
Mike
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I will point out a couple of things wrong with this Mike... 1. He is using JJ's roms and i highly doubt JJ is getting any kind of kickback. 2. His ebay username nateshuntsvegas is the same as on here. That alone could very well attract some negative attention as if M$ havent given us a hard time the way it is.
the rest of it i agree with
shogunmark said:
I will point out a couple of things wrong with this Mike... 1. He is using JJ's roms and i highly doubt JJ is getting any kind of kickback. 2. His ebay username nateshuntsvegas is the same as on here. That alone could very well attract some negative attention as if M$ havent given us a hard time the way it is.
the rest of it i agree with
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Click to collapse
I don't disagree with your comment, but as JJ's work is freely available for folk to download it's impossible to stop anyone selling services to install it. But yes the negative attention of M$ (linked as it is to here) is certainly not what we want. If we are seen by M$ to be set against any moves to sell this kind of material or a service to install it I'm sure this will improve their view of us.
Mike
I used to confuse this forum with a decent place for technical discussion of technical issues related to HTC devices, this illusion was short lived People are just casually dropping links to warez and no one seems to care! no moderation whatsoever. Take this example: A rigged license file for the most marvelous software ever for Windows mobile: Igo8 was put two months ago here. I complained quite clearly, and requested moderators for action in the respective thread here. No action whatsoever! Now look at this glorious post in the same thread here, the whole rigged software is available for your kind usage. It seems there is no stopping!
Please understand my harsh tone has a deeper reason. I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM.
Best regards!
if you havent heard, the jailbroken iphones have a program called Installer...where they get all the apps for free too just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ... i just dont see the reason why it would bother you, it's neither one of our faults, its the way the website monitors their threads ... no need to make a whole new thread bashing the website
elite-fusion said:
if you havent heard, the jailbroken iphones have a program called Installer...where they get all the apps for free too just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ... i just dont see the reason why it would bother you, it's neither one of our faults, its the way the website monitors their threads ... no need to make a whole new thread bashing the website
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Click to collapse
Thats not the point... and the purpose of this thread isn’t "bashing" this forum. The point is, we here should not facilitate the downward spiral windows mobile is in right now, we should have strict action against it at least within the discussions here. I know about iphone jail breaking, but its ease and availability is no where close to WM... iphone app developers are really earning money, the proof of this pudding is in eating. Just last year, we all were laughing at iphone not having an SDK. Now, if i try to google an app for my WM, the search return iphone app instead!
Deep Breath.......
waqarz said:
Thats not the point... etc,etc,etc !
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Click to collapse
When I first started to read your initial post I thought - Hear we go, another over exaggerated claim and a rant about how poorly the site is managed.... but as I finished reading I thought "Yep" your at least partly right - there's far more "abuse" of the forum and site now in many ways than there was a year ago - not just on the Warez front either - So I'm very much with you there and in support of your "general" comments.... However....
Membership of XDA Developers has rocketed in the past 12 months (or so it seems????) as has the activity and number of posts/comments/hits per day - and not just in this section but in many others.... which is of course a good thing - but..... with all the extra traffic and all the extra members so the "unwanted" aspects also experientially increase - and "OUR" moderators have far more to monitor and try to manage (as well as helping out and offering advice themselves when they can) and this is the part you seem to have missed as others often do - the moderators are NOT paid - its something they do because they want to and because they can.....
I would actively encourage you, and ALL other members to continue to report abuse of the site and on the forums and to actively discourage other members by highlighting (as you have) inappropriate behaviour so we can self regulate as much as possible.
Of course, if the moderators have time and the inclination to step in and take action then that’s great, if not - then lets help by policing ourselves and offering offenders (quite often misguided I'm sure) some friendly but firm advice - if its ignored then what more can we do.
Deep Breath.......
.
"the downward spiral windows mobile is in right now"
Dear Don Quixote, i beg to differ. The """downward""" spiral is becoase of crappy operating system and warez has nothing to do with it. And well, iphone is trendy :lol: I dont condone warez but i am organically alergic to more-god-than-god people like you.
And stop annoying people here, go to the kindergarten and yell "new torrent tracker". You will be amazed how many kids will turn around.
waqarz said:
I used to confuse this forum with a decent place for technical discussion of technical issues related to HTC devices, this illusion was short lived People are just casually dropping links to warez and no one seems to care! no moderation whatsoever. Take this example: A rigged license file for the most marvelous software ever for Windows mobile: Igo8 was put two months ago here. I complained quite clearly, and requested moderators for action in the respective thread here. No action whatsoever! Now look at this glorious post in the same thread here, the whole rigged software is available for your kind usage. It seems there is no stopping!
Please understand my harsh tone has a deeper reason. I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM.
Best regards!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The best you can do to help stopping this is to report the post or member clicking on the report symbol next to the post #, or post it in spam section here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=306366&page=22
That way Mods can take an action.
There are so many threads that is difficult to monitor all
If you have a problem
use the report button, we are here to help.
we can't be everywhere so you need to tell us so we can act.
thank you.
liamhere said:
use the report button, we are here to help.
we can't be everywhere so you need to tell us so we can act.
thank you.
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Click to collapse
Thanks, I really should have used the "report" link, my bad!
I really do appreciate all the volunteer work being done here by moderators and other resonable members. I myself moderate a few forums, not as large as this though and to some extend I know the toll. All, keep up the good work!
I still have a suggestion, members doing strict violation of policy should be warned and later banned!
Best regards.
waqarz said:
I still have a suggestion, members doing strict violation of policy should be warned and later banned!
Best regards.
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Nah just electrocute them first, warn them if they recover.
fards said:
Nah just electrocute them first, warn them if they recover.
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Good one
waqarz said:
...
I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM...
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as someone else already did
i must disagree with you on one point, why WinMo "...is taking such strong bashing from..." iPhone
it has nothing to do with Warez, your argument seems uninformed and almost sounds like bashing
Using the iPhone for any length of time you'll realize just how much time was put into the user experience, no manual, no class, just pick up and use. WinMo had thought behind it's design, but it was designed about a decade ago, to be used with a stylus. As is it's hopelessly outdated in look and feel (Windows 3.1 anyone, that's mature too by now)
As for the reason it seams that developers do better on the iPhone it's the same thing; thought. Thought put into the experience of using the AppStore. no serial headaches, integration, updates, and backup - just works. Like iTunes it's just easy to use for average people, Handago (or whatever is compatible with AppStore) is NOT easy.
Ignoring the needs of users and no real innovation from Redmond is doomsday for WinMo. Not Warez (which, as mentioned exist for the iPhone too, and it's this easy).
P.S. never had an Apple product, but if iPhone had Copy & Paste i'd own one now, not the HD
P.P.S. there is somewhat of a backlash in the Apple community against quality control, bad developers, and no "try before you buy" in the AppStore. if interested please read here then here.
The only thing why Iphone have so many Apps (and good apps) is the Appstore (one place for all apps), and the Hype. And ofcourse its only 1 device, with 1 displaysize, 1 processor and 1 input type.
On WM we got several desplaysizes, devices, processors and input types.
Its much more easy and cheaply to develope for 1 device than for thousands.
If we get also a appstore i am really safe that we get more good apps and games for our WM Devices.
Second:
I think delevopers do a hard job and develope good apps, and we shall donate to them. I work for a big software company and also hate warez. Warez is not good, but do not exaggerate nevertheless times! I do not think that here possibly someone such things with intention.
Third:
Sorry for my bad english.
Sir.B said:
as someone else already did
i must disagree with you on one point, why WinMo "...is taking such strong bashing from..." iPhone
it has nothing to do with Warez, your argument seems uninformed and almost sounds like bashing
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You cant be serious right? Go through these 3 articles, just the first 3 hits on google:
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/6459.html
http://www.fiercedeveloper.com/report/mobile-pda-software-piracy-and-warez
http://apcmag.com/windows_mobile_6_pirated.htm
Take one example: just over the last year, hundreds of thousands of people have illegally shared navigation maps, a conservative estimate of loss is in millions of dollars.
I an NOT claiming piracy is the only problem with WM, but it sure is a BIG contributor, this is my only point in this discussion. The reasons and implications are many and I cant go into details. I really feel sorry, my own mistake, dropping in the word "iphone" always ends up in a useless debate! Many threads here being trashed because of this.
Best regards.
so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)
I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.
Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw
yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.
Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.
I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.
this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.
Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.
And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.
irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.
The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.
Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.
Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.
Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.
Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
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About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
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Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave
Just a thought... is it possible that we (XDA) could get a member of the OHA such as HTC (knowing they have a wiki already and are majorly banking on Android) or another vendor to "open a space" on their official wiki for us to host our ROM's? Something that has a clause in the membership stating that we agree that they have the right to incorporate anything that they want out of the developed ROM's into their own build and we get access to legally redistribute the Google apps as we are "members" of the vendor's development/testing team. Knowing the spirit of this community and the truly open attitude it supports I am sure this would be something that you all would be happy to agree with. This would protect the developers that have spent so much time making Android amazing and give the vendor an amazing "think tank" in action. This would basically give them hundreds or thousands of developers at no cost all innovating for themselves but contributing to the success.
**If you are a vendor reading...Just think of the great publicity your company would get for this small investment in the Android community**
This should allow us to continue to use XDA for most of our needs but give us a "safe place" to continue innovation.
i have a feeling, htc would do the opposite and send out C&D letters to all the hero devs since they are distributing htc's close source apps such as all of its htc widgets and apps and sense ui itself.
NguyenHuu said:
i have a feeling, htc would do the opposite and send out C&D letters to all the hero devs since they are distributing htc's close source apps such as all of its htc widgets and apps and sense ui itself.
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Probably so but if we sell the idea of them having so many developers working on the project for free they might just jump.
As stated by some one else (i forgot who) just because we are in the oha doesent mean we have access to the closed source we would have to license it out **if** they allow us
jjcd51590 said:
As stated by some one else (i forgot who) just because we are in the oha doesent mean we have access to the closed source we would have to license it out **if** they allow us
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I recall that statement but if we where "honorary members/developers" of/for the vendor then we could fall under the shadow of their ability to develop with/distribute Google's apps for "the vendor's" development testers (us).
lock or merge please~~~~
jaaronmoody said:
lock or merge please~~~~
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With what???
This is a new idea that if gotten into the right inspired hands is another possibility that shouldn't get lost in the context of the other ideas.
XDA does not host any of the roms anyway. Whether normal activities can be conducted here is not really an issue. WinMo users have been doing the same thing here for a long time, and it is far from OS. The developers who choose to post links to their roms that contain questionable content do so at their own risk.
Also if you didn't notice, they already have us as a testing/development team. They can read this forum just like the rest of us. This is probably the reason most of what is done here is overlooked by folks like HTC. Even if we are a rather large user base, compared to the total # of Android users we are still only a few. They probably see it like "oh they got ahold of the Hero image huh? Too late to complain now. Just leave 'em be and let 'em hack at it a bit. Maybe they'll see or fix something we didn't" It's the better way to handle it PR wise.
Regardless of whether they mind what the end user is doing, I doubt HTC would be very willing to jump on board & slap google like that. We should probably leave that subject alone, and be glad they aren't complaining too.
Not that this isn't a good idea. I even suggested forming a group to join the OHA so we could attempt to license the apps, and be more in the loop. Just don't think HTC will go for it.
jaaronmoody said:
lock or merge please~~~~
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Do you make any other kind of posts?
At the OP this would be good idea if we could pull it off
gurnted said:
XDA does not host any of the roms anyway. Whether normal activities can be conducted here is not really an issue. WinMo users have been doing the same thing here for a long time, and it is far from OS. The developers who choose to post links to their roms that contain questionable content do so at their own risk.
Also if you didn't notice, they already have us as a testing/development team. They can read this forum just like the rest of us. This is probably the reason most of what is done here is overlooked by folks like HTC. Even if we are a rather large user base, compared to the total # of Android users we are still only a few. They probably see it like "oh they got ahold of the Hero image huh? Too late to complain now. Just leave 'em be and let 'em hack at it a bit. Maybe they'll see or fix something we didn't" It's the better way to handle it PR wise.
Regardless of whether they mind what the end user is doing, I doubt HTC would be very willing to jump on board & slap google like that. We should probably leave that subject alone, and be glad they aren't complaining too.
Not that this isn't a good idea. I even suggested forming a group to join the OHA so we could attempt to license the apps, and be more in the loop. Just don't think HTC will go for it.
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I have considered all of the facts you have listed which are valid points but if HTC wouldn't do it which I only used as an example some other vendor might do it. I just think that HTC is the preferred vendor as most of us use their equipment. This wouldn't be a slap to Google, it would be a way to endorse us as part of their development team.
By the way the OHA membership is a great idea. I think both options should be explored.
david1171 said:
Do you make any other kind of posts?
At the OP this would be good idea if we could pull it off
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Any idea which Senior Members had connections inside HTC?
I work for a carrier and the HTC rep I deal with isn't the best to go to with something like this.
Wrong forum, just because Dream Development is the most popular doesn't mean you post unrelated topics in it.
Gary13579 said:
Wrong forum, just because Dream Development is the most popular doesn't mean you post unrelated topics in it.
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So where should something like this be posted???
The idea I am trying to get out there doesn't fit into anything else as it is geared to creating an Android development resource.
Something that if it somehow works saves us all from doing what we all do already illegally.
Gary13579 said:
Wrong forum, just because Dream Development is the most popular doesn't mean you post unrelated topics in it.
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Never mind I guess. Looks like I got moved to the forum you saw fit.
Honestly, it shouldn't even be posted .
Not to be rude, but something like this would probably never work. Who all are licensing the software from Google? HTC, Samsung, maybe one or two more? These are all gigantic corporations who would laugh at it, imho.
We would have a better chance of contacting Google and asking how much they want for a license, then starting a donation drive.
Yeah I guess I could see someone stepping up to support this. All they would have to do is give permission to mod their roms. They could then look like the good guys who give their users a choice. I could see it now "Don't like our stock build of Android? Try one of these, or make your own." Now that would be the move to make for one of these companies who claim their phones are all about being "user customizable"
We would have a better chance of contacting Google and asking how much they want for a license, then starting a donation drive.
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This stands a way better chance than the other option though.
Gary13579 said:
Honestly, it shouldn't even be posted .
Not to be rude, but something like this would probably never work. Who all are licensing the software from Google? HTC, Samsung, maybe one or two more? These are all gigantic corporations who would laugh at it, imho.
We would have a better chance of contacting Google and asking how much they want for a license, then starting a donation drive.
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I don't disagree that we should gun for a license but like I said previously I work for a carrier and I believe they would go for something like this but I figure that a vendor would be a more likely target.
gurnted said:
Yeah I guess I could see someone stepping up to support this. All they would have to do is give permission to mod their roms. They could then look like the good guys who give their users a choice. I could see it now "Don't like our stock build of Android? Try one of these, or make your own." Now that would be the move to make for one of these companies who claim their phones are all about being "user customizable"
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You nailed it on the head!!! Thank you for "getting it". Now the question is how to get this idea beyond XDA
gurnted said:
Yeah I guess I could see someone stepping up to support this. All they would have to do is give permission to mod their roms. They could then look like the good guys who give their users a choice. I could see it now "Don't like our stock build of Android? Try one of these, or make your own." Now that would be the move to make for one of these companies who claim their phones are all about being "user customizable"
This stands a way better chance than the other option though.
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It'd require more effort from the vendor. They would have to be the ones distributing the ROMs to users, not us.
shagge68 said:
I don't disagree that we should gun for a license but like I said previously I work for a carrier and I believe they would go for something like this but I figure that a vendor would be a more likely target.
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I doubt the carriers would have the license to distribute the software. Since it's essentially the vendor who installs the proprietary apps on them, I don't see the point to carriers having it.
And all of this is ignoring the fact that we don't even know the terms of the contract/license. It could very well be against the terms of either to do something like this.
A lot of carriers, and manufacturers have someone doing PR on most of the major social networks. Maybe you should try shooting some of them a line and see where it leads. Might at least get the message to someone who can get something like this worked out.
http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/06...kers-with-legal-action-for-distributing-roms/
Leaks happen — especially in the mobile world. There are just too many people involved in the process of creating a mobile device to keep things under wraps. Take any given new phone’s OS installation package (known as its “ROM”), for example; when something is as easily copied and distributed as any other piece of software, it’s bound to find its way out eventually.
When these ROMs pop up on developer/hacker forums, it’s generally no big deal — in most cases, the manufacturer doesn’t notice or, if they do, don’t bother to do anything about it. Once someone makes an effort to gather up all these ROMs and distribute them from one unified outlet, however, things get hairy. Such is the case for the popular HTC ROM distribution site Shipped-ROMs, who allegedly just received a Cease & Desist order straight from the desk of HTC’s Legal Counsel.
According to HTC, Shipped-ROMs is stepping out of line by “illegal copying … HTC¡¦s original art work.” Do they use “art work” literally (as in the visuals)? Or are they ambiguously using the term to classify all of their code and other work as art? Who knows. One way or another, HTC is pissed.
If nothing else, you’ve got to praise HTC for their speed: the site, operated by the increasingly well-known hardware hacker Conflipper, is only about a month old. More impressive than HTC’s speed, however, is the site’s: in that month, they’ve managed to accumulate ROMs for just about every HTC handset imaginable, from antiques like the MDA Compact to the just-friggin’-lanched HTC Aria.
So, who does one root for? On one hand, these ROMs allow the hacking community to “cook” up their own custom installs for the hardcore crowd, often unlocking or adding in features that the manufacturer didn’t — and rarely, if ever, do these leaks result in anything malicious trickling down to the end user. On the other, these ROMs are jam-packed with HTC’s intellectual property, which they’ve got some duty to protect.
In the end, I’ll always be rooting for the little guy. My time with a number of HTC devices has been vastly improved by the efforts of the faceless geniuses in the hacking community. If HTC decides to make a misguided effort to stop the hacking community that satiates their poweruser’s thirsts, so be it — but this is the wrong way to go about it. C&D’ing one site won’t do a damn thing; these ROMs will be up on another site (or a torrent tracker, or any one of a bajillion other distribution methods) in the blink of an eye. It’s the classic Napster problem; in making a fuss about these ROMs, you’ve just alerted a bunch of people to their existence. Oh well.
The full text of the C&D can be read at Shipped-Roms. Conflipper says he’ll “do what he can” to keep the site online, but things aren’t looking too good.
so its illegal to fix HTC's blunders. that is great news!
It makes sense. Those miscrient hackers are doing something illegal and harming HTC by re-distributing copyrighted material (htc sense). The hackers should be caught and brought to justice for what they have done.
Obv I am joking =P
Look at the bright side though maybe will see more AOSP only ROM's
Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk
HTC we have bigger issues on our hands right now! Once again you're late to the party. Maybe you should focus on getting out that firmware update to fix this 30fps cap! Or... at least go buy some more glue...
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
MrX8503 said:
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
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Soo true ... instead of fixing their Issues they are busy sueing ppls who are making good things
HTCs not after those making modifications to rom - hackers , sites etc
They want to do away with those hosting official ROMs on unofficial servers.
You know what would be a good idea? Just issue licenses to various developers so that ROMs can be worked on and distributed legally. I mean, it's obvious that devs aren't charging for their work, no one is making money off of doing this, and I don't believe they ever have. The only reason ROMs exist is because the ones we're given stock are absolute garbage 98% of the time. So HTC doesn't have any ground to stand on in that sense. A minimal fee simply to acknowledge that, yes, this person has permission to work on this software, would be an easy fix.
Though I do want to point out that I'm extremely tired at the moment, so I might not be thinking clearly XD
Well, that's what happens when you try to fix other people's work :?
jigglywiggly said:
Well, that's what happens when you try to fix other people's work :?
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Hack away HTC doesn't care about that.
What they do care about is those hosting official ROMs on unofficial servers <--- Its a no go they will shut them down fast
If more sites are hosting their official roms wouldnt that make them happy? I mean, wouldnt it put less strain on HTC's servers? Im just say'in.
Response I got from my message. Seems to end nicely anyway:
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I understand your enthusiasm for customizing your HTC phone. Any HTC phone branded to a carrier is shipped with such software and features as the carrier requests - this is our mandate as the manufacturer. It's always been my belief that, having purchased a consumer product, it is your prerogative to do with it what you wish. But in technical support, we're in the position of only being able to certify, support, and warranty the functionality of the hardware and software on the network which uses the provided, up-to-date ROM. We cannot even broach the subject of custom ROMs, flashing, rooting, registry edits, etc. for liability reasons. An HTC phone user who, unlike yourself, may be less comfortable in this area or is perhaps less cautious, may render their phone entirely inoperable, and we would be entirely powerless to assist. Without being familiar with the particulars of the cease & desist letter you're speaking of, I can tell you a C&D letter is most commonly an obligatory procedural step in pursuit of copyright protection, as a request to stop distribution of possibly copyright-protected material (for example the device firmware or licensed operating system code embedded in a custom ROM image) before any further actions are taken. This need not be interpreted as a threat to any well-meaning online community forum of HTC phone enthusiasts.
To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number XXXXXXXXXXXX.
Sincerely,
sablesurfer said:
Response I got from my message. Seems to end nicely anyway:
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This need not be interpreted as a threat to any well-meaning online community forum of HTC phone enthusiasts.
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translation: "we wouldn't dare go after XDA-developers.org"
lol
I haven't been able to root yet but all I know is thank you DEVS, not HTC. Because of the devs people are able to use the phone to its full potential. Maybe HTC can actually learn something from the devs here. Thank you.
Sent from my PC36100 usingnr XDA Apps
Keep in mind that HTC likely receives pressure from carriers when things like "WiFi Tethering" become unbillable and available to rooted devices. The carrier-branded devices we receive are built-to-spec and neutered by the carriers.
EVOmaniac07 said:
Maybe HTC can actually learn something from the devs here.
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It has been pretty obvious over the years that HTC does learn a lot from XDA.
I like that response. It confirms what we have all been thinking.
Why are people always so hard on Sprint and HTC? I mean, they are companies doing their jobs! They can't possibly cater everyone. They have to go by a standard. How else is Sprint going to become the best network if they don't charge people for their services...and they are still cheaper than others! HTC has to comply with Sprint standards so they can keep making Sprint phones. Now if HTC was a "custom" phone maker (there's an idea), then that's a different story. I truly love this community and understand some of the hate comments on here...but come on. We are all grown ups here and is common sense. Sorry for sounding harsh, I just get tired of all the childish hate comments.
sent from HTC Evo through Tapatalk
MrX8503 said:
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
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Ok, they'll get their legal department right on those coding fixes for ya