Database Users

My Letter to Dan Morrill

so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)

I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.

Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw

yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.

Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.

I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.

this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.

Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.

And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.

irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.

If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one

I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.

The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.

Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.

Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.

Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.

Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
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Click to collapse
About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?

nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...

MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave

I am Making A Website

I'm making a site, called market4android which you developers can feature your apps/roms on, etc. I'd love for you guys to contact me so we can get the ball rolling. It's a great domain that gets a lot of search engine hits, so if you're looking to get your name out there and get your apps out there, then please PM me and let me know what you have and all that cool stuff!

The site should be online for most of the world. If it is not, give it a while because it may still need to update on world servers.
Check it out, leave feedback, etc, and developers! hit me up and let me know if I can post your ROMs on the site. Don't want nobody getting mad at me!

Reminds me of a site that I frequent called XDA.
Maybe I am missing the point? Are you simply offering to host files?

jerry43812 said:
Check it out, leave feedback, etc, and developers! hit me up and let me know if I can post your ROMs on the site. Don't want nobody getting mad at me!
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You'll never get anywhere waiting for others to send you content. If you want to post a rom, post info, screenshots, etc. and link out to the post where they can get it and more info.

This may be a dumb question, but here goes anyway....
It's not hard at all to get an app included on the Android Market. What advantage are you offering over going that route?
So far I've only written a few Android apps, and they were both custom jobs for clients that would not be at all interesting to the general public. (And they have a LOT of tweaking left to do before I'd call them anything I'm proud of. I'm new to Android, it'll take awhile for me to catch up with the stuff I've done for WinMo and PalmOS.)
But I've considered diving into some more generally appealing projects, and the Android Market currently offers me both the ability to distribute for free, and the ability to monetize my efforts if I decide to go that route. Either route gives me pretty widespread exposure.
As a developer, my main question would be: "What extras are you offering that the existing marketplace leaves out?" (i.e. How can you make me more money? And/or give me wider exposure?)

I don't think he is making a place to distribute apps (at least that's not what I got), I thought he was making a place to be like "hey look what's going on in the dev community, check out this app and this rom, etc."

gthing said:
I don't think he is making a place to distribute apps (at least that's not what I got), I thought he was making a place to be like "hey look what's going on in the dev community, check out this app and this rom, etc."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So a review site?
That could be very, very cool. Only trick is building a large readership.....
With that in place, it could very easily be something that developers want to pay close attention to.

gthing said:
I don't think he is making a place to distribute apps (at least that's not what I got), I thought he was making a place to be like "hey look what's going on in the dev community, check out this app and this rom, etc."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You got the idea down pat!

subliminalurge said:
So a review site?
That could be very, very cool. Only trick is building a large readership.....
With that in place, it could very easily be something that developers want to pay close attention to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd definitely be letting developers have publisher accounts so they can work on getting exposure from my site, etc. It's not totally about me distributing apps...
Try to picture this: I can get traffic. Traffic coming to my site and seeing your apps there, your ROMs there, etc, want to download them, etc, well, not only gets you not only exposure, but income from the apps as well seeing as how they're downloading you stuff because they found info and reviews on it on my site.
Yes, the market would definitely be the #1 way to go, but what harm can it do to get some more exposure to your stuff? as well as get user reviews and the income that youre concerned about?

danknee said:
Reminds me of a site that I frequent called XDA.
Maybe I am missing the point? Are you simply offering to host files?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will create mirrors for your files etc, and yes, you are missing the point. I wasn't 100% absolute sure in the direction I was heading with this, but I am offering you the exposure of traffic that comes to my site to see your apps etc, when they may not have ever noticed your app in the marketplace. User reviews, developer releases and all kinds of cool **** can happen here if you're willing to crack the shell away a little bit and accept my offer of free exposure to your stuff.
Why the hell would anyone pass up free? Beats me.

jerry43812 said:
I wasn't 100% absolute sure in the direction I was heading with this,
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For the record, my comments were not meant to be disparaging, but to help you figure that out.
I'm not going to go into how old I am, but I'm not exactly wet behind the ears. I was making a living in the "computer field" since long before anything called a "web browser" ever existed. The first time I heard about Mosaic, my reaction was "eh, sounds like gopher with pictures. big deal." (It wasn't a great article....)
There are two main reasons why projects fail. The first, and by far the greatest, is because the people starting that project never ask themselves, and come up with a clear answer to, "what problem am I trying to solve?"....
The second reason is that they fail to ask themselves "Is my solution something people will actually use?".
If you have good answers to those two questions, then the rest is just the legwork of getting it done. If you don't have good answers to those questions, then no amount of work will produce a successful outcome.
Sorry if I sound harsh, just trying to be helpful.

subliminalurge said:
For the record, my comments were not meant to be disparaging, but to help you figure that out.
I'm not going to go into how old I am, but I'm not exactly wet behind the ears. I was making a living in the "computer field" since long before anything called a "web browser" ever existed. The first time I heard about Mosaic, my reaction was "eh, sounds like gopher with pictures. big deal." (It wasn't a great article....)
There are two main reasons why projects fail. The first, and by far the greatest, is because the people starting that project never ask themselves, and come up with a clear answer to, "what problem am I trying to solve?"....
The second reason is that they fail to ask themselves "Is my solution something people will actually use?".
If you have good answers to those two questions, then the rest is just the legwork of getting it done. If you don't have good answers to those questions, then no amount of work will produce a successful outcome.
Sorry if I sound harsh, just trying to be helpful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not harsh at all and I comprehend your points. Maybe my tone sounded harsh when it was simply factual and jsut telling my purpose.
I feel that the purpose of this site I opened is good, and it can be very useful. But just like any other good thing, it usually cannot be done by one person. Support for the project is always a plus, and it can be made to be an excellent resource for people who are green on both sides, that want to get into modding android devices.
I dont think that it is a waste of my time, but in order for it to make it to where I'd like it to be, it can definitely use all the support and input that it can get. Thats why I brought the whole subject up, here. There are lots of developers here and even I am new to a lot of the stuff here, and I feel that it would be a great asset to a lot fo folks here if you jsut give it a chance.

jerry43812 said:
Not harsh at all and I comprehend your points. Maybe my tone sounded harsh when it was simply factual and jsut telling my purpose.
I feel that the purpose of this site I opened is good, and it can be very useful. But just like any other good thing, it usually cannot be done by one person. Support for the project is always a plus, and it can be made to be an excellent resource for people who are green on both sides, that want to get into modding android devices.
I dont think that it is a waste of my time, but in order for it to make it to where I'd like it to be, it can definitely use all the support and input that it can get. Thats why I brought the whole subject up, here. There are lots of developers here and even I am new to a lot of the stuff here, and I feel that it would be a great asset to a lot fo folks here if you jsut give it a chance.
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Click to collapse
Oh, I never meant to imply it was a waste of time. Nothing of the sort. I think the Android platform has a huge amount of potential. For the people developing the platform, for the people developing apps to run on top of it, and for people creating the entire ecosystem that will surround it.
I guess what I was trying to do was get you thinking about a statement that you ended up making yourself. That you weren't 100% sure about the direction you wanted to take this. Whatever direction you decide on, I think your chances of success are much greater if you have a clear idea of what that direction is.
That said, I like your idea. I'd love to hear more about what you have in mind.

subliminalurge said:
Oh, I never meant to imply it was a waste of time. Nothing of the sort. I think the Android platform has a huge amount of potential. For the people developing the platform, for the people developing apps to run on top of it, and for people creating the entire ecosystem that will surround it.
I guess what I was trying to do was get you thinking about a statement that you ended up making yourself. That you weren't 100% sure about the direction you wanted to take this. Whatever direction you decide on, I think your chances of success are much greater if you have a clear idea of what that direction is.
That said, I like your idea. I'd love to hear more about what you have in mind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why dont you PM me with some messenger info so we can talk? I run ICQ and AIM because ICQ is what is industry standard in the industry I work in.

jerry43812 said:
Why dont you PM me with some messenger info so we can talk? I run ICQ and AIM because ICQ is what is industry standard in the industry I work in.
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Click to collapse
Will do. I mainly use Skype these days for IM, but I can throw ICQ on my computer real quick.

subliminalurge said:
Will do. I mainly use Skype these days for IM, but I can throw ICQ on my computer real quick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome, look forward to talking with you!

Got an article coming soon on the best battery app I found, along with some info from the developer. This should be live within a day or two.
I am looking for more stuff to write articles about, and it will involve some email communication between us so I can get the most accurate info onto the site.
Anyone want to be the one of the first few people to get featured on the site? PM me your email address so I can contact you

jerry43812 said:
Got an article coming soon on the best battery app I found, along with some info from the developer. This should be live within a day or two.
I am looking for more stuff to write articles about, and it will involve some email communication between us so I can get the most accurate info onto the site.
Anyone want to be the one of the first few people to get featured on the site? PM me your email address so I can contact you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Got that article written and set live, and I also have a few other things on there, including a comprehensive guide to rooting the Sprint HTC Hero.

well an app review site would be great as i tend to follow users input when i download apps, and the input in the Market is just crap .. what some user find to be a bad app could actualy be a very good app for others. i sometime do it myself when i download an app , i look for user rating and comments. and decide wether to download the app or not, based on the user ratings..
The other thing would be a app request, meaning i been loking for an app that will play FLAC or AAC music files, i found 2 , 1 is from XDA ( a good app but the GUI is must to be desired ) the other is a cheap app that sometimes plays sometimes dont.. LOL
if someone would make good app for this i would be willing to pay for it 20.00 if i had to ...
The point is i would love a place that i could go to and request an app or suggest ideas for an app..
my 2 cents

rgildoss said:
well an app review site would be great as i tend to follow users input when i download apps, and the input in the Market is just crap .. what some user find to be a bad app could actualy be a very good app for others. i sometime do it myself when i download an app , i look for user rating and comments. and decide wether to download the app or not, based on the user ratings..
The other thing would be a app request, meaning i been loking for an app that will play FLAC or AAC music files, i found 2 , 1 is from XDA ( a good app but the GUI is must to be desired ) the other is a cheap app that sometimes plays sometimes dont.. LOL
if someone would make good app for this i would be willing to pay for it 20.00 if i had to ...
The point is i would love a place that i could go to and request an app or suggest ideas for an app..
my 2 cents
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're able t request apps and stuff there, I honestly havent set that section up because I am working on other content first. You can possibly post a new thread requesting someone code something for you, but I am not sure on the pricing of their work, etc. Let me work on getting some good app coders on my side and then I'll open up the requests section.

Market F***ing Spam

I have come to a point where I can no longer sit back and watch our system be bombarded with spam apps. It hurts android as a system and will be its downfall, open or not.
I sent tips to Gizmodo, Engadget, BGR, and all others that have can reach a large audience.
I for one am sick and tired of all the bull**** I see in the market. Open system or not, its getting out of hand. I can't be the only one fed up with the situation. To all android users please voice your hatred of people abusing the rules. Just because its not illegal does not make it ethical or allowable
These are a few links to help people realize how bad this problem is and how bad it will become.
Who cares if we have 50,000 apps and upwards of 15,000 are complete crap. There are 20 real offenders with about 1,000 apps each. 1,000!! each. Thats ridiculous.
Almost 50% of our applications do nothing. Absolutely nothing. I love my N! and have been an Android user since the G1. I have watched our open system is being abused and ransacked by idiots.
Anyone else fed up with this do something to fix it rather than sit back.
I know this is not so much about the N1 than it is Android in general, but I wanted people to see it and spread the word.

These are some websites to look at
http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/bwemj/pocket_empires_spamming_android_market/
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Android+Market/thread?tid=511e1703b32ce3a5&hl=en
http://www.eurodroid.com/2010/02/an...he-day-zeitmann-and-its-deluxe-clock-widgets/
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Android+Market/thread?tid=608e9ca3fc7a80fb&hl=en
http://forum.xda-developers.com/archive/index.php/t-635400.html

I'd noticed a lot of reviews mentioning Pocket Empire, all across the Market, earlier today, it's a pain in the arse, and highlights the fact that you really can't read just a few comments left, and assume they'll be accurate.

Yes it is totally our of hand. The Pocket Empire developers have been encouraging their users to go to the market and download any and all Free apps they dont have to pay for. Then to leave feedback score of 5 for the unrelated app with a comment promoting their Pocket Empires and a referral code. So as well as the comments being BS so are the star ratings they are leaving, which do not reflect the underlying application.
Here are some threads discussing it.
Nexusone Stop spamming the Android Market Pocket Empire players
People advertise everywhere for "pocket empires"- can this spam be curtailed somehow?
How about all the people who were getting their knickers in a knot about the sentence "this message was not sent by tapatalk" sink their teeth into this one.
It is of far greater significance and has the potential to undermine the android market. The lack of action by google to date on this issue (ie not banning PE) suggests to me that they want the market to self regulate.
So lets get together and do something about this Pocket Empire mob.

Yeah the stupid spam comments about "join pocket empires and receive 100 credits" is really getting annoying, not to mention the complete random and totally useless apps that have been coming onto the market lately.

You can at least use appbrain as an alternative, because it filters out the vast majority of Spam apps. But it cannot filter all the PE Spam comments.

Well yesterday, the dev of Pocket Empires sent an ingame message out saying the following:
Hey everyone. We are laying down a new "dont spam other games" policy due to the amount of spame that's been being spread around. Starting May 1st any comments past that date will have their referral code banned for a week. Thanks for your assumed cooperation and enjoy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems like the dev is trying to put a stop to it at least for now.

Sistum Id said:
Well yesterday, the dev of Pocket Empires sent an ingame message.....
Seems like the dev is trying to put a stop to it at least for now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes but they are just going through the motions of saying the right thing. Crying Crocodile Tears. How do you honestly think they are going to police their threat of one week bans?
If they were serious about it, they would
1) be telling their users to go back and undo the damage they have done. Which would involve removing spam comments left for other apps AND setting ratings stars to average.
2) removing the referral code system altogether, so that once they no longer can Spam the market they do not just move to every other forum know to man. Such as some smart arse adding a PE referral in this very thread which will no doubt happen soon enough.
I would really like to see Google pull PE from the market altogether for some time as a penalty. But probably wont happen as they want the market to self regulate.
POCKET EMPIRES = POX it must be eradicated

Quick add me on pocket empire!
My code is [email protected]

I'll pay that one ;-)

KnightMAREcrow said:
These are some websites to look at
http://forum.xda-developers.com/archive/index.php/t-635400.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I opened that thread over there. What bothers me the most is how easy it would it be for google to give us the tools to crush spam.
From where I see it, there are two distinct problems right now:
1) the spam apps (those by Michael Quach, Zeittman, etc).
The easy solution: allow the users to filter out specific words and developers. Then, if a given number of users filter out a developer, consider him "uninteresting" and relegate his apps to the bottom.
2) the PE spam in other apps and games.
The easy solution: if a given number of users report a given number of posts as spam (e.g. 50 individual users report 50 individual messages) consider them spam and filter out every message that is 90% similar to them (e.g. they have mostly the same words but the referral code changes).
These would be completely automatic and would require absolutely no human interaction on part of Google. It's so easy it makes me want to go to their offices and slap the person in charge in the neck.

I reckon a simpler solution to the PE SPAM with referral codes is as follows:
Restrict feedback entries to known words. So if a user enters anything that is not a word, such as a referral code, serial number or email, then it would get rejected. There is absolutely no reason for legitimate feedback to contain any word or string of characters that is not in a dictionary.

logger said:
There is absolutely no reason for legitimate feedback to contain any word or string of characters that is not in a dictionary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about diminutives, etc? Also, What if I want to point to a related app that is better in my opinion? I have done that in the past.

Fair point.
However, for simplicity, blocking non words would go a long way to fixing the referral code issue, while allowing most feedback. It may be better to point out the shortcomings of an application, than to refer readers to an alternative. I know if I was a developer, I would be annoyed if feedback pointed to a competitors product. I trust I got my point across here, using only common words and no diminutives. Common diminutives could be added to the dictionary in any case.

logger said:
However, for simplicity, blocking non words would go a long way to fixing the referral code issue, while allowing most feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The operative word here being "most". I get your point, but I think self-regulation would be better on the long run. I don't think the best way to fix an annoying situation is to introduce another annoying situation, even if it's less annoying than the first one; and I sure would be pissed if I was writing a comment and the Market rejected it because one of the words I used was not in the dictionary.
logger said:
It may be better to point out the shortcomings of an application, than to refer readers to an alternative. I know if I was a developer, I would be annoyed if feedback pointed to a competitors product
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would be too, but honestly: I don't write comments to please developers, I do it to give other users good advice. Isn't that precisely the point of the comments system?

http://www.appbrain.com/
If you refuse to use it after I've showed you this, or knew about it already and didn't use it, then don't start another thread like this. You have your out.
And please don't use the "we shouldn't have to use a 3rd party app." This is mother####### XDA, we use what we have to in order to get things done quickly and smoothly.

ATnTdude said:
And please don't use the "we shouldn't have to use a 3rd party app." This is mother####### XDA, we use what we have to in order to get things done quickly and smoothly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, let's leave the rest of Android users on their own. We're mother####### XDA, we don't care about things working right or not if we can make them work for US!
Who cares about the health of the Market? Who cares if it deters people from using Android? We're mother####### XDA!

ATnTdude said:
http://www.appbrain.com/
If you refuse to use it after I've showed you this, or knew about it already and didn't use it, then don't start another thread like this. You have your out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course we know about appbrain. Before you go sprouting off, Just read some the feedback comments in http://www.appbrain.com/browse/apps/?apps=free for example Shazam and you will immediately see they are not filtered and that the SPAM comments we have been discussing reside there as well.
Any yes I have asked appbrain if they would consider filtering the SPAM comments from their site. Hopefully they will.

In this instance, I believe the market should regulate itself. There has been enormous growth and with it comes the BS. I'm of the mind to believe this will be addressed.
Legalize it. Don't criticize it.

1) the spam apps (those by Michael Quach, Zeittman, etc).
The easy solution: allow the users to filter out specific words and developers. Then, if a given number of users filter out a developer, consider him "uninteresting" and relegate his apps to the bottom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree.. i think the user should be able add any developer to their personal 'blacklist' that will just simply hide them from view in the market.
also, a more in depth search is needed. filter by keywords you want, keywords you dont want, categories, rating, total downloads, active installs, developers country, downloads to time in market ratio, etc, etc... i mean come on how hard is this to implement when your the top search provider in the entire world.
edit: also, this spam crap is hurting the legit devs. without proper filters or search, it is an uphill battle to not fail. i mean, how will the casual user even know your app exists when 50 apps above it and 50 apps below it are all spam.

[Q] Un-Authorised Tracking of Downloads in XDA

Recently, whenever I am clicking on the Download link for Mediafire, Rapidshare or any download site from XDA, the links are going via viglink.com which tracks the User Clicks and Which page you are going in.....
PLease check for your computers and report....
Note: This does not happen, when you select Open in new Tab or Open in New Window.....

why does it matter?...

pongscript said:
why does it matter?...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed.
I'll be fine just like that. Also as an android user, or cyanogen user or whatever,
statistics are given to google every hour or so.
u should kinda know, iphone users are worse.

Stunned
I'm stunned by the laizzez-faire attitude that common people take to privacy and user-control. The usefulness of Google etc. leaves people uninterested in 'the details'. By people not taking an interest (or making poor comparisons to existing behavior) as an excuse to do nothing, puts us all at the mercy of these companies who then do as they please with our information (our lives). This kind of crap makes me love government - it's rare that the people know what to do with this kind of information.
Maybe this gentleman setting up this thread is for those of us who take this kind of thing seriously, so I too would like to know more.

phoneyericsson said:
I'm stunned by the laizzez-faire attitude that common people take to privacy and user-control. The usefulness of Google etc. leaves people uninterested in 'the details'. By people not taking an interest (or making poor comparisons to existing behavior) as an excuse to do nothing, puts us all at the mercy of these companies who then do as they please with our information (our lives). This kind of crap makes me love government - it's rare that the people know what to do with this kind of information.
Maybe this gentleman setting up this thread is for those of us who take this kind of thing seriously, so I too would like to know more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do see your overall point about privacy, but I also see it as being a little paranoid.

I am not paranoid because I want to know the reason for same. Once you are aware of how the trackers work, you will understand.
agentJBM said:
I do see your overall point about privacy, but I also see it as being a little paranoid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my X10i using XDA App

I don't got that crap you've stated. But those track things SUCK!

FBI: Carrier IQ files used for "law enforcement purposes"& video

Seems Treve was right about CIq FBI law enforcement involve so here's the link check for your self
http://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2011/dec/12/fbi-carrier-iq-files-used-law-enforcement-purposes/
Edit:UPDATE the a video of Sen. Franken Questioning FBI Director Mueller about Carrier IQ in the Senate Judiciary Committee
http://youtu.be/WiQcYKmU-yg

This is how you know there is nothing wrong with it. After all, the government has our best interests in mind and would never do anything that could potentially harm is.
Tin foil hat firmly affixed for this one...

Very interesting. Thanks

OstrichSak said:
This is how you know there is nothing wrong with it. After all, the government has our best interests in mind and would never do anything that could potentially harm is.
Tin foil hat firmly affixed for this one...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if u say so, then again they are great liars in my opinion. They spray the skies and say its nothing harmful, u have kids and some new "disease" is born but they said its not harmful.

another little article on this
http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/12/carrier-iq-fbi/
This stuff is just creepy. 2011 is 1984. No joke.
edit: this is the Carrie IQ rebuttal
http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/13/carrier-iq-fbi-rebuttal/

And everyone thought I was crazy when I said CIQ sounded like part of the alphabet soup :-/
Sent From My EViLizED-iCS-EVo4G

.Elite_The_King. said:
Well if u say so, then again they are great liars in my opinion. They spray the skies and say its nothing harmful, u have kids and some new "disease" is born but they said its not harmful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You must not have sensed the sarcasm. I was laying it on pretty thick.

[sarcasm] THIS JUST IN...CarrierIQ useless when used in conjunction with aluminum hats. Basement dwellers rejoice!![sarcasm/]

My opinion:
If Carrier IQ doesn't have anything to hide, I would like to see the following information released from them:
a) Disclose EXACTLY what data they collect and display formatting and reports associated with them.
b) Disclose EXACTLY what improvements has come from the data collected.
c) Disclose EXACTLY what security measures they have been using to protect privacy
d) Disclose EXACTLY how many people have access from their side, and to what department they get delivered AND what security measures are being used in the process of delivery to the end user (companies that work with them)
e) Disclose EXACTLY WHY they don't have an Opt-Out option if they are really not doing anything shady.
f) Based on the YouTube video that proved that they are collecting more than anonymous information, they should prove beyond reasonable doubt to the public that their software doesn't collect / send this data to them.
This will not keep everyone (or myself) at peace but its a start in the right direction....

Going along the lines of what megabiteg said ..
I would add that - So, if 160+ million devices with CarrierIQ were set to communicate or "call home" all at once there would be no Denial of Service on whomever is collecting whatever.. /sarcasm
After all, at first it was said that no data was being transmitted, then it changed to no personal data was being transmitted, then the "blame game and finger pointing" began.. next week it will be no financial data is being transmitted.
So which is it?
The other question I have is for AV (AntiVirus/Security) vendors who make a lot of claims against Android and call it unsecured.. Why didn't your product (paid or free) catch and remove CarrierIQ as it was discovered months ago and by most "modern" standards is a Rootkit?

megabiteg said:
My opinion:
If Carrier IQ doesn't have anything to hide, I would like to see the following information released from them:
a) Disclose EXACTLY what data they collect and display formatting and reports associated with them.
b) Disclose EXACTLY what improvements has come from the data collected.
c) Disclose EXACTLY what security measures they have been using to protect privacy
d) Disclose EXACTLY how many people have access from their side, and to what department they get delivered AND what security measures are being used in the process of delivery to the end user (companies that work with them)
e) Disclose EXACTLY WHY they don't have an Opt-Out option if they are really not doing anything shady.
f) Based on the YouTube video that proved that they are collecting more than anonymous information, they should prove beyond reasonable doubt to the public that their software doesn't collect / send this data to them.
This will not keep everyone (or myself) at peace but its a start in the right direction....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 on that man

OstrichSak said:
You must not have sensed the sarcasm. I was laying it on pretty thick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay I thought that the bottom line was like ur signature got it now I'm sorry man my bad

Jus read this earlier check it out what does this sound like to you elite
The Technology is Helping Repressive Regimes Spy
TrevE Supporter!

I think ciq is really just a front for the government to spy on citizens. No wonder why their statements are just bull****. I don't doubt it.
Support TrevE !!

infamousteeboy said:
Jus read this earlier check it out what does this sound like to you elite
The Technology is Helping Repressive Regimes Spy
TrevE Supporter!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha I know what you mean. It is what it is you always have to protect your self especially from gov that sells your info for cash. I believe there is an app that shreds your text messages, using a third party app instead of the manufactures one to protect urself against ex.(tigerwoods) ex mistress, company, and etc, that u dont want them to find out. Always be one step ahead of what your intentions are.
Remember laws are not laws but simply codes and statues that "everybody" agreed upon. You should always defend your self.
I'm just saying.

Isn't all this irrelevant for those using custom ROMS?

lightiv said:
Isn't all this irrelevant for those using custom ROMS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well thanks to Treve it is now but it wasn't before and I think the sense kernels and maybe some AOSP too out there right now aren't up to date with what treve recently discover so yup check it get his app then check to see if ur kernel is update or is it still sending that info man.

Some useful updates and information regarding the situation:
http://franken.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1891
This was an important remark from the US Senator:
"I appreciate the responses I received, but I'm still very troubled by what's going on," said Sen. Franken. "People have a fundamental right to control their private information. After reading the companies' responses, I'm still concerned that this right is not being respected. The average user of any device equipped with Carrier IQ software has no way of knowing that this software is running, what information it is getting, and who it is giving it to-and that's a problem. It appears that Carrier IQ has been receiving the contents of a number of text messages-even though they had told the public that they did not. I'm also bothered by the software's ability to capture the contents of our online searches-even when users wish to encrypt them. So there are still many questions to be answered here and things that need to be fixed."
I hope the Senator keeps the strong track he's fighting, we should all support him!

megabiteg said:
Some useful updates and information regarding the situation:
http://franken.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1891
This was an important remark from the US Senator:
"I appreciate the responses I received, but I'm still very troubled by what's going on," said Sen. Franken. "People have a fundamental right to control their private information. After reading the companies' responses, I'm still concerned that this right is not being respected. The average user of any device equipped with Carrier IQ software has no way of knowing that this software is running, what information it is getting, and who it is giving it to-and that's a problem. It appears that Carrier IQ has been receiving the contents of a number of text messages-even though they had told the public that they did not. I'm also bothered by the software's ability to capture the contents of our online searches-even when users wish to encrypt them. So there are still many questions to be answered here and things that need to be fixed."
I hope the Senator keeps the strong track he's fighting, we should all support him!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's the a video of Sen. Franken Questioning FBI Director Mueller about Carrier IQ in the Senate Judiciary Committee
http://youtu.be/WiQcYKmU-yg

I dont think there is anything wrong with carrier IQ. Like if your doing nothing wrong you have nothing to be worried about* but with that being said, it is not right for our phone companies, service providers, CIQ, or even the FBI, to leave us in the dark like this. There really is so much in question and so many assumptions, I just dont see why they cant fill us in, and at least let us know what is going on while we sort out this whole mess...