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so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)
I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.
Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw
yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.
Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.
I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.
this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.
Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.
And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.
irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.
The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.
Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.
Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.
Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.
Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
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About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
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Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave
http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/06...kers-with-legal-action-for-distributing-roms/
Leaks happen — especially in the mobile world. There are just too many people involved in the process of creating a mobile device to keep things under wraps. Take any given new phone’s OS installation package (known as its “ROM”), for example; when something is as easily copied and distributed as any other piece of software, it’s bound to find its way out eventually.
When these ROMs pop up on developer/hacker forums, it’s generally no big deal — in most cases, the manufacturer doesn’t notice or, if they do, don’t bother to do anything about it. Once someone makes an effort to gather up all these ROMs and distribute them from one unified outlet, however, things get hairy. Such is the case for the popular HTC ROM distribution site Shipped-ROMs, who allegedly just received a Cease & Desist order straight from the desk of HTC’s Legal Counsel.
According to HTC, Shipped-ROMs is stepping out of line by “illegal copying … HTC¡¦s original art work.” Do they use “art work” literally (as in the visuals)? Or are they ambiguously using the term to classify all of their code and other work as art? Who knows. One way or another, HTC is pissed.
If nothing else, you’ve got to praise HTC for their speed: the site, operated by the increasingly well-known hardware hacker Conflipper, is only about a month old. More impressive than HTC’s speed, however, is the site’s: in that month, they’ve managed to accumulate ROMs for just about every HTC handset imaginable, from antiques like the MDA Compact to the just-friggin’-lanched HTC Aria.
So, who does one root for? On one hand, these ROMs allow the hacking community to “cook” up their own custom installs for the hardcore crowd, often unlocking or adding in features that the manufacturer didn’t — and rarely, if ever, do these leaks result in anything malicious trickling down to the end user. On the other, these ROMs are jam-packed with HTC’s intellectual property, which they’ve got some duty to protect.
In the end, I’ll always be rooting for the little guy. My time with a number of HTC devices has been vastly improved by the efforts of the faceless geniuses in the hacking community. If HTC decides to make a misguided effort to stop the hacking community that satiates their poweruser’s thirsts, so be it — but this is the wrong way to go about it. C&D’ing one site won’t do a damn thing; these ROMs will be up on another site (or a torrent tracker, or any one of a bajillion other distribution methods) in the blink of an eye. It’s the classic Napster problem; in making a fuss about these ROMs, you’ve just alerted a bunch of people to their existence. Oh well.
The full text of the C&D can be read at Shipped-Roms. Conflipper says he’ll “do what he can” to keep the site online, but things aren’t looking too good.
so its illegal to fix HTC's blunders. that is great news!
It makes sense. Those miscrient hackers are doing something illegal and harming HTC by re-distributing copyrighted material (htc sense). The hackers should be caught and brought to justice for what they have done.
Obv I am joking =P
Look at the bright side though maybe will see more AOSP only ROM's
Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk
HTC we have bigger issues on our hands right now! Once again you're late to the party. Maybe you should focus on getting out that firmware update to fix this 30fps cap! Or... at least go buy some more glue...
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
MrX8503 said:
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
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Soo true ... instead of fixing their Issues they are busy sueing ppls who are making good things
HTCs not after those making modifications to rom - hackers , sites etc
They want to do away with those hosting official ROMs on unofficial servers.
You know what would be a good idea? Just issue licenses to various developers so that ROMs can be worked on and distributed legally. I mean, it's obvious that devs aren't charging for their work, no one is making money off of doing this, and I don't believe they ever have. The only reason ROMs exist is because the ones we're given stock are absolute garbage 98% of the time. So HTC doesn't have any ground to stand on in that sense. A minimal fee simply to acknowledge that, yes, this person has permission to work on this software, would be an easy fix.
Though I do want to point out that I'm extremely tired at the moment, so I might not be thinking clearly XD
Well, that's what happens when you try to fix other people's work :?
jigglywiggly said:
Well, that's what happens when you try to fix other people's work :?
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Hack away HTC doesn't care about that.
What they do care about is those hosting official ROMs on unofficial servers <--- Its a no go they will shut them down fast
If more sites are hosting their official roms wouldnt that make them happy? I mean, wouldnt it put less strain on HTC's servers? Im just say'in.
Response I got from my message. Seems to end nicely anyway:
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I understand your enthusiasm for customizing your HTC phone. Any HTC phone branded to a carrier is shipped with such software and features as the carrier requests - this is our mandate as the manufacturer. It's always been my belief that, having purchased a consumer product, it is your prerogative to do with it what you wish. But in technical support, we're in the position of only being able to certify, support, and warranty the functionality of the hardware and software on the network which uses the provided, up-to-date ROM. We cannot even broach the subject of custom ROMs, flashing, rooting, registry edits, etc. for liability reasons. An HTC phone user who, unlike yourself, may be less comfortable in this area or is perhaps less cautious, may render their phone entirely inoperable, and we would be entirely powerless to assist. Without being familiar with the particulars of the cease & desist letter you're speaking of, I can tell you a C&D letter is most commonly an obligatory procedural step in pursuit of copyright protection, as a request to stop distribution of possibly copyright-protected material (for example the device firmware or licensed operating system code embedded in a custom ROM image) before any further actions are taken. This need not be interpreted as a threat to any well-meaning online community forum of HTC phone enthusiasts.
To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number XXXXXXXXXXXX.
Sincerely,
sablesurfer said:
Response I got from my message. Seems to end nicely anyway:
=========================
This need not be interpreted as a threat to any well-meaning online community forum of HTC phone enthusiasts.
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translation: "we wouldn't dare go after XDA-developers.org"
lol
I haven't been able to root yet but all I know is thank you DEVS, not HTC. Because of the devs people are able to use the phone to its full potential. Maybe HTC can actually learn something from the devs here. Thank you.
Sent from my PC36100 usingnr XDA Apps
Keep in mind that HTC likely receives pressure from carriers when things like "WiFi Tethering" become unbillable and available to rooted devices. The carrier-branded devices we receive are built-to-spec and neutered by the carriers.
EVOmaniac07 said:
Maybe HTC can actually learn something from the devs here.
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It has been pretty obvious over the years that HTC does learn a lot from XDA.
I like that response. It confirms what we have all been thinking.
Why are people always so hard on Sprint and HTC? I mean, they are companies doing their jobs! They can't possibly cater everyone. They have to go by a standard. How else is Sprint going to become the best network if they don't charge people for their services...and they are still cheaper than others! HTC has to comply with Sprint standards so they can keep making Sprint phones. Now if HTC was a "custom" phone maker (there's an idea), then that's a different story. I truly love this community and understand some of the hate comments on here...but come on. We are all grown ups here and is common sense. Sorry for sounding harsh, I just get tired of all the childish hate comments.
sent from HTC Evo through Tapatalk
MrX8503 said:
If they used their efforts in trying to sue people towards fixing their phone, we wouldn't have the 30fps problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, they'll get their legal department right on those coding fixes for ya
RANT ON:
While happily chugging along on some of the stuff that I hope to release to you all, I've made a very disturbing discovery, which makes me feel almost like the Big Man turning green. Angry. Pissed. Greatly disappointed!
First some background.
Everyone worth their 'droid knows about the Cease & Desist letter sent to Cyanogen.
Many of us know the same happened to Conflipper from Shipped ROMs.
Rumor has it the same happened to samsung-firmwares.com
Yet it appears there are still people around who like poking at the beehive (yes, killer bees!) that is the phone industry and their armies of lawyers. Things that are GUARANTEED to piss them off BigTime.
I'm not going to drop list of names here, I hope their conscience will speak to them on a quiet night or something.
The morale?
STOP CHARGING MONEY FOR THINGS THAT AREN'T YOURS TO SELL!
HELP PEOPLE GET WHAT THEY CAN ALREADY GET FOR FREE!
Besides being against the rules of most mod/tweak/hack forums out there, charging for someone else's stuff is probably the biggest reason for lawyers to go after websites hosting 'official', 'unofficial', 'leaked' etc. ROMs: lawyers merely have to google for "premium membership", "costs", "donations" etcetera.
Please people, stop doing this, or there will be a time when Samsung, Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Nokia and whoever else will simply pull the plug on online firmware updates and start telling people to take their phones to the shop for updating, eFuse and all. Needless to say, the vibe of the modding community will suffer with it.
I was the first (as far as I can tell) to post about Kies test mode, I'm willing to put time and effort in making a tool to allow people to update to and backup ANY firmware using just Kies (no need even for a registry hack), maybe even use Kies update module on non-Windows OSes (well, those that support Wine), help with developing Heimdall, fixing the FM radio, etcetera. Please allow others and me to go on doing this.
So:
- Don't steal others' work only to lock it up and start charging money for using it.
- Be honest and open about your discoveries.
- Be respectful of the services you use, don't hammer them needlessly.
...and the list goes on.
RANT OFF
What's this all about? No need to pay for firmware update requests, use Kies and one or two simple, free tools (coming soon) to get them. Less noise in the forums about the inner workings, which could attract angry lawyers from far away.
That's all.
Well said mista, lets hope some take note.
i mean really?
I thought samsung-firmwares.com got a cease and desist because of having Samsung in the name and make people assume they own and are responsible for the site...thats why Samsung-firmwares made a new site with a different name..
Hmm, why mention Cyanogen's cease and desist letter in a post that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? It's not like Cyanogen was asking money for anything and the reason behind his C&D was entirely different.
As for Samsung-firmwares.com, they had it coming and got what they deserved (and obviously didn't get it at all, looking at their current activities...)
Case_ said:
Hmm, why mention Cyanogen's cease and desist letter in a post that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? It's not like Cyanogen was asking money for anything and the reason behind his C&D was entirely different.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, he wasn't asking money. I added him to show that lawyers can be set off barking at anyone involved in hosting OR selling someone elses intellectual property. I should have been more clear about that.
As much as I think that IP is just imaginary property, I cherish the modding community and their great work too much. I'd hate to see the same happening to us.
Hah! Just seen the new Samsung firmwares temporary page. This is just priceless. For those who don't understand Czech, they say there that everyone from Czech republic is blocked from the site and can't even register for their "premium services", because, apparently, "Czech people were spreading our firmwares illegally".
Edit: Sorry. As it was just explained to me by the owner of Samsung firmwares, the site on that URL has nothing to do with them anymore and apparently is someone's idea of a great joke...
Visit Groubal and sign the petition: http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
Retweet: http://twitter.com/#!/ibproud/status/52265679990169600
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/unlockmoto
UPDATE (14th June 2011):
We are now over the 10,000 mark.
I have now spoken with Motorola and gotten confirmation that Motorola plan to unlock every device that will get an update in the second half of this year. This will include maintenance & firmware updates, but is still subject to Carrier approval.
The promising sign is that Verizon has already allowed Motorola to unlock a device on their network, the Xoom, which utilizes the unlockable/re-lockable model that Motorola intends on using across their devices.
I'm still looking to work with Motorola in the coming months to help see if we can make this a smooth process for Motorola and the community.
You can read the article here:
http://ausdroid.net/2011/06/14/an-u...witter&utm_campaign=Feed:+ausdroid+(Ausdroid)
Please share this where you can and keep it alive. I will continue to work with Motorola to see if we can get this thing torn wide open.
UPDATE (26th April 2011):
We are now at ~8,700 mark.
Motorola has now responded to me, stating that they are looking at unlocking bootloaders across their devices late 2011.
The article for the story can be found here:
http://ausdroid.net/2011/04/26/the-little-aussie-taking-on-motorola-u-s/#more-8184
We're still seeking clarity around whether this will be for current devices or only future devices.
I couldn't have gotten this far without the support of everyone here. You guys and girls have been a huge support and help me turn this snowball into a wrecking ball.
Please share this where you can and keep it alive. I will continue to work with Motorola to see if we can get this thing torn wide open.
Previous Update (4th April 2011):
We are now at ~7600 mark.
We're starting to slow down from our initial boom, so I have now set up a Facebook page to see if we can wrangle in some supporters that don't use Twitter or XDA.
I will need your help getting this out there. So share the facebook page where you can.
I'm also looking to see if anyone is interested in helping me Moderate the page. Please PM if you are.
Original Post:
Hi All,
I have created a Groubal (online petition) to get a response from Motorola on it's bootloader policy.
>>This petition started for the Atrix, but I made sure that it was for Motorola's overall Bootloader Policy. I have reached 200 signatures in 2 weeks, but now believe it's time to expand this out of the Atrix space and into the larger Motorola Dev community.
You guys and your silly petitions. They wont and don't ha e to do anything.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
DarrellRaines said:
You guys and your silly petitions. They wont and don't ha e to do anything.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What can I say, I'm idealistic.
IMO waste of time.
Moto thinks they're God. Also, odds are your gorilla glass will be cracked before this bootloader.
On the other hand, class-action lawsuit is more appealing. Somehow get a lawyer to argue the users right to UTILIZE the hardware, as moto isn't. Lawsuits are the only thing corporations understand.
I did sign it, but I got no hopes...
tical2k said:
IMO waste of time.
Moto thinks they're God. Also, odds are your gorilla glass will be cracked before this bootloader.
On the other hand, class-action lawsuit is more appealing. Somehow get a lawyer to argue the users right to UTILIZE the hardware, as moto isn't. Lawsuits are the only thing corporations understand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While litigation may be the way in the U.S. it is not the way in the land down under. We have Government appointed watchdogs that provide avenues for complaints and comments. If a complaint is sufficiently raised to an Ombudsman the company the complaint is about is charged a fee for every day the complaint is not resolved.
Unfortunately the Atrix is not commercially available in Australia and thus I cannot pursue this in a typical Australian way.
If suing the pants of Motorola is likely to work, then I encourage any U.S. Citizens to do so (but only after carefully considering the cause and affect).
I am simply encouraging everyone to focus their complaints rather than spreading it across so many channels and losing it's potency.
Also: in all honesty, it's not really wasting that much time, since I would normally be wasting this time flashing experimental Roms, which I can't do due to obvious readons.
Signed and linked to on Facebook. It's no more a waste of time than flashing a rom...
edit hehe. You beat me to the waste of time comment
Signed it just a second ago!
I'll sign but this has a much lower chance of succeeding than the AT&T service petition, and I'm not convinced we'll see many results from that one.
CC Lemon said:
I'll sign but this has a much lower chance of succeeding than the AT&T service petition, and I'm not convinced we'll see many results from that one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But there's no harm in trying is there?
I think that when compared with the DroidX and Droid2, this phone will be available around the world. Verizon is one of the only carriers that still uses CDMA and thus smaller consumer base for the Droid series Motorola phones.
Once the Global Atrix's are released we should see a lot more attention as well as the European Unions attitude towards anti-competitive behaviour might force an inquiry.
Once again, I'm a tad idealistic and am very keen for your support as well as your constructive feedback.
signed~! but i only put 1% of my hopes in this and the rest 99% in the developers to crack the bootloader themselves!!
I support your cause; I have signed.
irenic said:
signed~! but i only put 1% of my hopes in this and the rest 99% in the developers to crack the bootloader themselves!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well put. I signed.
With the new SBF file available we could start seeing more development, but would still be great to hear something from Motorola.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=989577
haha.. as if motorola cares. you already bought, its a done deal! they even promised 1080p recording on the specs sheet followed by "(in the future update)".. i seriously dont think there will be an update on this thing..
before you buy, they promise lots of things, "in the future update".
after you gave buy and after a while try asking for the update.. these f*cktards will just say... "what update?"
my hope leans more on supporting the developers who are working hard to crack this wonderful device.. rather than wasting time begging to motorola after you shelled out that sum.
noblewolf said:
haha.. as if motorola cares. you already bought, its a done deal! they even promised 1080p recording on the specs sheet followed by "(in the future update)".. i seriously dont think there will be an update on this thing..
before you buy, they promise lots of things, "in the future update".
after you gave buy and after a while try asking for the update.. these f*cktards will just say... "what update?"
my hope leans more on supporting the developers who are working hard to crack this wonderful device.. rather than wasting time begging to motorola after you shelled out that sum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Completely agree, but in all honesty, I had the time to waste.
The Dev's really are the ones that will get the bootloader unlocked or bypassed before motorola even decides to do anything.
The Dev threads are starting to get really exciting.
Sent from my MB860
Just a reminder to anyone who wants to get an official statement from Motorola to go to http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
and tweet or facebook to as many as you can.
Continuing the Battle
So we're up near the 200 signature mark now for the Petition. I've been in touch with Motorola about 6 times in the last 2 weeks, not giving up on this one though.
My last response from them was:
Dear Irwin,
I do apologize but there is no definite timeframe yet for the announcement of the bootloader solution for our mobile phones. Updates for the Motorola ATRIX will be posted first at http://www.motorola.com/Support/CA-EN/Consumer-Support/Mobile-Phones/ATRIX. I'm so sorry for that inconvenience.
We hope that you find this information useful and look forward to assisting you in the future.
For information about Motorola products and services, please visit us at http://www.motorola.com/
Thank you for contacting Motorola e-mail support.
Best Regards,
Neil
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So it's not a flat out denial of an imminent bootloader solution, but we're no closer either.
I will now create similar posts in the other Motorola forums on XDA and see if we can get our Brothers & Sisters to join the party.
I know there are a lot of skeptics, but I will keep trying. I don't have the skill to help the Dev's crack the phone, but I do have the patience to make our voices heard.
ikenley said:
So we're up near the 200 signature mark now for the Petition. I've been in touch with Motorola about 6 times in the last 2 weeks, not giving up on this one though.
My last response from them was:
So it's not a flat out denial of an imminent bootloader solution, but we're no closer either.
I will now create similar posts in the other Motorola forums on XDA and see if we can get our Brothers & Sisters to join the party.
I know there are a lot of skeptics, but I will keep trying. I don't have the skill to help the Dev's crack the phone, but I do have the patience to make our voices heard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"bootloader solution" can mean anything. it can even mean staying with their locked bootloader is their solution.
dLo GSR said:
"bootloader solution" can mean anything. it can even mean staying with their locked bootloader is their solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very concise point, but if you review this statement, then it's in context.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=495971028278
Which is all included in the Groubal.
Signed. Maybe someone should design a B&W 8.5x11 printout that can be posted at universities to drum up support... I'm in a CS program and I'm sure there are more than a couple who would take the 2 seconds necessary to sign- I just don't know any of them personally!
Unlocking new smartphone becomes harder Saturday. check out the link below for article about a recent ruling by the Library of Congress in the good old USA. my apologies if already posted as searched and could not find.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/25/tech/mobile/smartphone-unlocking-illegal/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
This is just not right !!!
So after reading the article, I sat in my trusty computer chair bewildered. (For the record I live in Australia so this doesn't apply to me.) I am just dumb-founded that a governing body, can turn around to the people that openly support the Android community ( plus windows phone and others, sorry i can't say the fruit one) and just slap them in the face like that.
I for one in some ways am glad I do not live in the US when it comes to down and outright stupid decisions like this one.
Who in their right mind would stop people from IMPROVING on the (most of the time) shoddy MODs/Skins that these carriers put on top of the phones with all of their bloatware and links to their own services no one really even uses, and in some cases can even cripple some of the more useful functions of a smartphone.
Well done congress for not exactly helping the developer community, and for (in the long run) costing people more money by having to fork out more money on a device they shouldn't have too, just so they can help improve the device the carrier has just crippled.
Sorry for the rant, this sort of stuff just anger's me lol.
kapebretoner said:
Unlocking new smartphone becomes harder Saturday. check out the link below for article about a recent ruling by the Library of Congress in the good old USA. my apologies if already posted as searched and could not find.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/25/tech/mobile/smartphone-unlocking-illegal/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So much for the land of the free....first online poker and now this....glad I live in Canada.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda app-developers app
Merica. Wouldn't be surprised if a certain big company lobbied for this.
I has a sig
Nothing changes. If you can unlock, you can lock.
Let the flashing continue.
It is ridiculous the ammount of power telecoms already have, and they still get more and more. Just sad. They have crappy expensive services (at least where I live), and that's not sufficient, they have to own our phones too.
But I agree with gastonw, we won't stop because of that.
Thread closed before it turns into a mass whinging thread :cyclops: