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I know this has been said again and again, but I just have to put my opinion out there..
To realize what provoked this thread see here and a benchmark test on youtube where the evo gets pwnt by the nexus one and droid x on so many levels.
HTC claims that the reason EVERY other android phone can get twice as much frames per second as us is because they don't have an HDMI port..
Did they really think that was gonna fly?
I'd gladly never use my hdmi port to have smooth as butter 60FPS.. and to set the record straight we DO notice the difference.
At the very least they could have imposed the limit only when content is being output via hdmi!
I cannot understand how they thought we'd sit back and allow this.
Android is the home of nerds, enthusiasts, overclockers, benchmarkers and rom chefs.
This isn't the typical iphone userbase, we notice a lack of performance and inefficiency.
Both of which our phones are in no short supply of..
Our tests and kernel tweaks have proved that this DEFECT can be bypassed, so why are they still going on about hardware limitations?
How come our PREMIUM phones that we have to pay an extra 10 bucks per month just to own, can't even catch up to the very first android phone (G1) in terms of 2D FPS?
How come everybody else is capable of 60fps while we with our "revolutionary multimedia phones" can't even churn out anything past 30FPS without tweaks, and hacks, and best of all voiding our warranties.
It's ****ing blasphemy I tell you.
How about a rom that allows for disabling of hdmi?
I don't know just how ingrained it is with the snapdragon CPU or more likely the gpu, but it's surely possible.
I mean how many of us would've gotten these phones if we knew it was either hdmi or 60fps?
Hdmi has nothing to do with the cap.
This belongs here:
forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=699290
topdnbass said:
HTC claims that the reason EVERY other android phone can get twice as much frames per second as us is because they don't have an HDMI port..
Did they really think that was gonna fly?
I'd gladly never use my hdmi port to have smooth as butter 60FPS.. and to set the record straight we DO notice the difference.
At the very least they could have imposed the limit only when content is being output via hdmi! <-That should be a poll option
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aridon said:
Hdmi has nothing to do with the cap.
This belongs here:
forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=699290
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HDMI is their excuse isn't it, Droid X has HDMI will it always be limited to 30FPS?
Personally, I'd rather loose battery life and HDMI (never going to use that ****) output for no lag and better performance.
At least give us the option, HTC.
For the most part HDMI out, is a "feature for friends".
I don't think that many of us are ACTUALLY using this often.
I mean it's nice to have and i'm sure it can come into handy one day, but not at this expense!
Hdmi has nothing to do with the cap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
According to Keith Nowak it has very much to do with hdmi..
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=713677
I have sifted through that convoluted thread.. but see no indication that anything else is causing the cap..
So then? What IS causing it.
topdnbass said:
For the most part HDMI out, is a "feature for friends".
I don't think that many of us are ACTUALLY using this often.
I mean it's nice to have and i'm sure it can come into handy one day, but not at this expense!
According to Keith Nowak it has very much to do with hdmi..
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=713677
I have sifted through that convoluted thread.. but see no indication that anything else is causing the cap..
So then? What IS causing it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
are you implying i have no friends?
Indeed.
Screw implying.
You straight up got no friends bro!
Sorry, better luck next time.
Sent from my Evo 4G
I don't really understand why I'd use hdmi. This thing isn't pushing out .mkv files is it?
And you better believe I'm not spending extra money on a fancy mini hdmi cord. F that.
Take out the hdmi, give me a freaking Ethernet port instead Haha. Id prolly use that at least once, which will be more than I ever use hdmi.
(Actually come to think of it 4g to wired Ethernet tether for devices that don't support usb tether would be rather slick.)
Now that HTC fixed the grounding issue on the phone with the OTA update, my attention is now completely on the FPS issue. This is really frustrating. I have 5 days left to return my phone and I am really trying to figure out what to do. I don't want to go to Verizon because it's more expensive and I'm still in contract until Oct if I return the Evo. $50 ETF isn't a huge deal though. I've never been an apple fan and have never personally owned an iPhone but when you put the Evo next to Apple's latest, the screen choppiness really shows. It makes me mad. It makes me feel like the Evo is still behind the iPhone (when on paper is was not at all).
Look, I'm not sitting here saying that 30FPS is making my phone crappy and less enjoyable. The thought of getting duped by HTC is what bothers me. HTC sold us something on paper, and delivered something else. Isn't that called bait and switch?
Another problem is that none of the Sprint sales people, HTC customer service reps, or Best Buy/RS employees know enough about FPS to realize what it has done to our "wicked fast" phone. They look at us like we're crazy. I was describing the grounding issue to my local RS sales guy and he was giving me a look like I was being a baby about it.
Even though the 30 fps cap is still there the new update has gotten rid of all the screen lag I've had in sense and the browser.
donatom3 said:
Even though the 30 fps cap is still there the new update has gotten rid of all the screen lag I've had in sense and the browser.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The motion blur you see when you swipe screens or scroll in the browser is a result of 30FPS. I still have it after the update. Use a nexus one or droid and you'll see the difference. It's very noticeable side-by-side. Sure, I don't see it when I'm using my phone. My brain gets used to it. The problem is that phones that have been out for 12 months have better screen motion than we do with our "wicked fast" phone.
meh at least we don't have to deal with this:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=954054
Wow! Seems pretty widespread... That really sucks. On top of that, they have to deal with the manipulations as Apple tries to dodge the complaints.
Great another post of so me one whining go return the phone, please return your phone and get a box of tampons
BrianDigital said:
Great another post of so me one whining go return the phone, please return your phone and get a box of tampons
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll make sure to get you an English 101 book while I'm out shopping.
coolguy949 said:
I'll make sure to get you an English 101 book while I'm out shopping.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hardy har, atleast I used one comma hey look htc just released a patch to fix the cap. Soley based off your whiney post
This is a public forum. People complain on it. Get used to it.
ahh fanboys make me smile
Thought this would fit in the development thread. Please move to general if felt needed. http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/09/htc-says-evo-4gs-30fps-cap-on-video-output-cant-be-increased/#comments
"HTC says EVO 4G's 30fps cap on video output can't be increased
By Chris Ziegler posted Jul 9th 2010 5:31PM Even though we've seen evidence of a hack that circumvents it, we've been able to corroborate a story over at AndroidGuys this week that the HTC EVO 4G's 30fps cap on screen output is a terminal condition -- so says HTC, anyhow. The official story is that the cap was necessitated by the phone's support for HDMI-out, and there's no way the company could craft a software update to nix the limitation. Of course, as usual, we have every faith that the xda-developers community is going to magically take care of this in a way that's easy enough for at least power users to install -- but until then, you'll just need to deal with a frame rate that's just barely perceptible to the human eye. We suspect you'll manage."
Not really breaking news IMO, they have been saying that.
I can see where people might get excited by your thread title only to be disappointed tho lol
Rippley05 said:
Not really breaking news IMO, they have been saying that.
I can see where people might get excited by your thread title only to be disappointed tho lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, changed to recent news. Dont want to mislead anyone.
Wrong section....
Well that's a shame.
Guess we won't have their engineers to help us on this one
More work for us..
When we truly fix this cap, we should all get together one day, knock on peter chou's door and hold out our phones running silky smooth gears.
They've been saying that since day one.. Are we seriously getting trolls here or is it just a coincidence that someone feels the need to reiterate this every day?
I'll sit here and enjoy the 46FPS on my novatek panel for now, hopefully at 60FPS soon enough.
I wonder if its possible to fix this issue but break HDMI output?
I mean I could care less about hooking my phone to my TV to watch anything in HD...
Or am I missing something
Housoft said:
They've been saying that since day one.. Are we seriously getting trolls here or is it just a coincidence that someone feels the need to reiterate this every day?
I'll sit here and enjoy the 46FPS on my novatek panel for now, hopefully at 60FPS soon enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just sharing the most recent news my man. And I dont think HTC ever confirmed this. They claimed to have been "working on it". I figured the devs would like to see what HTC recently said. Move the thread if you have the power to then!!
I've wondered if it could be fixed by killing power to the HDMI-out. Seems like HTC woulda been able to include an HDMI-out toggle and enable 60fps w/ HDMI toggleOFF if that were the case though.
old news and wrong section
Housoft said:
I've wondered if it could be fixed by killing power to the HDMI-out. Seems like HTC woulda been able to include an HDMI-out toggle and enable 60fps w/ HDMI toggleOFF if that were the case though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That seems like the logical thing to do. However, you have to remember we're talking about HTC.
On another note, I would love to get rid off the HDMI port to have full 60fps. I know for sure that I'll never ever use that stupid feature in my life from a phone.
jblazea50 said:
That seems like the logical thing to do. However, you have to remember we're talking about HTC.
On another note, I would love to get rid off the HDMI port to have full 60fps. I know for sure that I'll never ever use that stupid feature in my life from a phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If HTC turns out to be right and the screen *must* be limited to 30fps in order to enable HDMI, then it seems to me like the development community has a pretty clear (if difficult) plan in front of them. Once 60fps is figured out, then including a settings-style toggle between 30FPS/HDMI and 60FPS/No HDMI would be the solution. Hell, auto-toggle it when an HDMI cable is plugged in or yanked, too. And if we ever get an always-on HDMI out for the whole interface, that switching system could still work. Well, in theory.
I was browsing Youtube for Galaxy S video out demonstrations and came across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epytWcOFpYo
As you all know, the Epic 4G doesn't have this feature. This really disappoints me. I was hoping to be able to play games and browse the web on my 42" tv, but now I won't be able to with the Epic. I don't know why Sprint and Samsung removed such an important feature of the Galaxy S line. We should write to Sprint and Samsung over the removal of this feature and ask them why? I hope it's just a software crippling rather than a hardware one, or Sprint has really let me down for the last time.
kaotikevo said:
I was browsing Youtube for Galaxy S video out demonstrations and came across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epytWcOFpYo
As you all know, the Epic 4G doesn't have this feature. This really disappoints me. I was hoping to be able to play games and browse the web on my 42" tv, but now I won't be able to with the Epic. I don't know why Sprint and Samsung removed such an important feature of the Galaxy S line. We should write to Sprint and Samsung over the removal of this feature and ask them why? I hope it's just a software crippling rather than a hardware one, or Sprint has really let me down for the last time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure they'll have tv out for the epic by the end of the year
Have faith in the Devs my brother, for they shall deliver that which samsung&sprint will not.
This is purely speculation on my part.
I believe they will have TouchWiz 3.0 and TV out with the Froyo update later this year. As some of you might know, the current version of TouchWiz is more like 2.5 and is missing a few of the 3.0 features. I believe Sprint made this choice because of some of the issues the 3.0 version is having with lag and black screens.
Also I am hoping the USB to HDMI cable from Samsung will also come out this year and solve the issue.
kaotikevo said:
I was browsing Youtube for Galaxy S video out demonstrations and came across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epytWcOFpYo
As you all know, the Epic 4G doesn't have this feature. This really disappoints me. I was hoping to be able to play games and browse the web on my 42" tv, but now I won't be able to with the Epic. I don't know why Sprint and Samsung removed such an important feature of the Galaxy S line. We should write to Sprint and Samsung over the removal of this feature and ask them why? I hope it's just a software crippling rather than a hardware one, or Sprint has really let me down for the last time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All needed TV out files are in epic OS dump so I'm a little confused were those claiming features been removed are getting info from.
Can you supply source?
Pops_G said:
This is purely speculation on my part.
I believe they will have TouchWiz 3.0 and TV out with the Froyo update later this year. As some of you might know, the current version of TouchWiz is more like 2.5 and is missing a few of the 3.0 features. I believe Sprint made this choice because of some of the issues the 3.0 version is having with lag and black screens.
Also I am hoping the USB to HDMI cable from Samsung will also come out this year and solve the issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Probably. I suspect the software on the Epic is limited due to stability and time constraints. I wonder how soon someone can port over these features from say the Vibrant or Captivate. Unfortunately Samsung isn't the best to rely on for timely updates... but one can hope. In the meantime... DLNA for those with compatible TVs or PS3s
Pops_G said:
I believe Sprint made this choice because of some of the issues the 3.0 version is having with lag and black screens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it was primarily due to the landscape orientation mode not working on the 3.0.
ConceptVBS said:
No, it was primarily due to the landscape orientation mode not working on the 3.0.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true. Samsung needs to update touchwiz 3.0 to work in landscape. The epic has lost a lot of features the other sgs phones have due to this. We all now how well samsung does updating there phones\software so good luck on that. It will be hard to port sgs rom's due to the hardware changes. Im sure there will be a rom with touchwiz 3.0 sometime but front camera, keyboard & landsacape will not work until they get ported if they can get ported(samsung drivers are not fully released so who knows how that will work out). They may have changed the back camera do to space issues. There are reports that the epic camera and video recording are not as good as the other sgs phones. Nothing comfirmed yet on rear camera until we get a epic teardown.
What I'd like to know, if the Epic does get micro usb - hdmi, how would you charge it? All of the micro usb - hdmi cables I've seen weren't split for power.. so you're looking at a couple hours max viewing IF it works.
talliwackr said:
What I'd like to know, if the Epic does get micro usb - hdmi, how would you charge it? All of the micro usb - hdmi cables I've seen weren't split for power.. so you're looking at a couple hours max viewing IF it works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It does split. The charger goes in the HDMI end.
http://phandroid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/microusbhdmi.JPG
That said, I'm going to make absolutely sure that the lack of TV-out via component and/or HDMI on the Epic is merely a software issue before buying it, and not due to a lack of the appropriate hardware.
I don't know what's the validity of the information on the page I'm going to link, but I clicked on a link comparing all the Galaxy S versions and I see that the Epic 4G's audio subsystem runs on a lower frequency than the others. It runs 44100hz instead of 48000hz, and seems to be the only one missing a controller named Wolfson WM8994E.
If this information turns out to be true, then the Epic 4G uses a different 3.5mm hardware piece, thus probably lacking the tv out feature from this port. I hope this is just misinformation. Here's the link comparing the phones : http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdacomparer&id=45&c=all_samsung_galaxy_s_variants
Man, you're bringing me down!!!
kaotikevo said:
I was browsing Youtube for Galaxy S video out demonstrations and came across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epytWcOFpYo
As you all know, the Epic 4G doesn't have this feature. This really disappoints me. I was hoping to be able to play games and browse the web on my 42" tv, but now I won't be able to with the Epic. I don't know why Sprint and Samsung removed such an important feature of the Galaxy S line. We should write to Sprint and Samsung over the removal of this feature and ask them why? I hope it's just a software crippling rather than a hardware one, or Sprint has really let me down for the last time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought more tv-out phone only showed vdo and pictures through the HDMI? I will never use a phones HDMI. Will there be any games on the phone that will be worth playing on the TV and how would you control the game with the HDMI wire hanging out the side of the phone? I also don't understand why you would want to go on the web with your phone through TV when you are at home. Isn't you home PC faster and has a better picture. I think the the TV-out would look bad on my 82" tv.
I will be truly bummed if Sammy ripped us on TV out hardware.
Phone that doesn't have Youtube HD application , Wifi for Sprint TV & TV out feature.
Hmm How Sprint and Samusung can consider that a multimedia phone is beyond me
They should classify it as a gaming phone.
itsmebryan said:
I thought more tv-out phone only showed vdo and pictures through the HDMI? I will never use a phones HDMI. Will there be any games on the phone that will be worth playing on the TV and how would you control the game with the HDMI wire hanging out the side of the phone? I also don't understand why you would want to go on the web with your phone through TV when you are at home. Isn't you home PC faster and has a better picture. I think the the TV-out would look bad on my 82" tv.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many like myself use their phone for Pictures and Video recording.TV out feature allows us to view such material using AV composite TV cables.
http://www.amazon.com/eXtreme-Composite-Cable-Apple-Video/dp/B000EAGKIM
Such cables provide good video quality and sound which is great for home use , any TV anywhere
All other S galaxy phones have it so should Epic , If Epic fails to provide feature its a major downer I will more then likely go back to EVO
sling said:
I will be truly bummed if Sammy ripped us on TV out hardware.
Phone that doesn't have Youtube HD application , Wifi for Sprint TV & TV out feature.
Hmm How Sprint and Samusung can consider that a multimedia phone is beyond me
They should classify it as a gaming phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
YouTube HQ is available on the phone (just press "Menu" & "Watch in high quality"). Sprint TV must be used over your phone connection, because it needs to authorize that you are a Sprint user. TV Out is in the hardware... it will probably make it back into the software next month (or so) when Android 2.2 Froyo rolls out.
This phone is a premium media phone. Can playback 1080p, 720p, 480p video perfectly. Plays games at 60 fps. 5.1 Surround sound. Super AMOLED screen that makes LCD look dull and grey.
kennethpenn said:
YouTube HQ is available on the phone (just press "Menu" & "Watch in high quality"). Sprint TV must be used over your phone connection, because it needs to authorize that you are a Sprint user. TV Out is in the hardware... it will probably make it back into the software next month (or so) when Android 2.2 Froyo rolls out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe EVO allows Sprint TV wifi....I could be wrong.
Well Hopefully they didn't use cripple jack...that's what it comes down to.
kennethpenn said:
This phone is a premium media phone. Can playback 1080p, 720p, 480p video perfectly. .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice combo not doubt about that my worry is that such great quality cant be viewed on my 50" Samsung plasma.
A true media phone should allow it.
Supposedly sprint asked Samsung to take the tv out feature because of the sprint tv :S im pretty sure our devs will give it back to us
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
sling said:
I believe EVO allows Sprint TV wifi....I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As previously mentioned in this thread, sprint tv is not available over wifi regardless of the phone. I can also confirm that the evo does not allow it either.
kennethpenn said:
YouTube HQ is available on the phone (just press "Menu" & "Watch in high quality"). Sprint TV must be used over your phone connection, because it needs to authorize that you are a Sprint user. TV Out is in the hardware... it will probably make it back into the software next month (or so) when Android 2.2 Froyo rolls out.
This phone is a premium media phone. Can playback 1080p, 720p, 480p video perfectly. Plays games at 60 fps. 5.1 Surround sound. Super AMOLED screen that makes LCD look dull and grey.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope you're right about the hardware supporting tv out from the 3.5mm jack to rca and micro usb to hdmi, and Sprint and Samsung enabling them when Froyo hits. I think I'm holding out for the phone until I see confirmation that the hardware supports it. If not there's always the other Galaxy S phones on other carriers. I'd hate to pay more money for a phone that's crippled in key aspects of the Galaxy S line, such as multimedia
Hey Guys,
I have had this idea for a while and just got around to making some concept renders of a tablet that the EVO would dock into.
This 10.1" tablet would work only when the EVO is docked in it (a la Atrix 4G). The tablet would utilize the camera, headphone jack and processor of the EVO 4G, while using the mini HDMI and USB ports to transmit data and images. There is an internal battery, front facing camera, volume rocker, mini HDMI, and mini USB port on the tablet to make using the device easier.
Advantages of a tablet dock:
-Less expensive (after phone is purchased) than a standalone tablet
-Real integration of phone and tablet (contacts, pictures, apps etc)
-Keeping bulk to one side reduces the torque on the wrist and makes the tablet seem lighter
-Using existing phone to power the tablet reduces the amount of internal components, reducing the thickness of the majority of the tablet
-Uses phone service instead of a separate data plan
Disadvantages:
-Dependant on phone specs (CPU, WiMAX, etc)
-Not compatible with other phones (although I think Google should standardize phone connections and locations)
I would love feedback and suggestions, and keep in mind this is a first gen concept. I will be updating this based on what people have to think.
I have created a sliding dock for my phone which holds the phone firmly in place and connects HDMI and USB in a sliding case (Sedio Innocase with HTC Media Dock modified to fit). This will be used in the prototype tablet.
Enjoy!
Edit: Here's the Atrix 4G dock, as mentioned above:
http://www.cellphonenews.com/wp-content/uploads/cc003c27Laptop-Dock.jpg
And here are multi-touch screen overlays, which I believe work over USB
http://www.22miles.com/hardware/multi-touch-hardware
edited renders to change orientation of the phone.
Added images of dock prototype
wow, this looks ridiculously amazing!!
Holy crap! I was literally imagining something exactly like this last week. Awesome work!
Can I has now? Please!!!!
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
So what exactly do you do with this concept? Sell it to a manufacturer?
m4rk0358 said:
So what exactly do you do with this concept? Sell it to a manufacturer?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I emailed it to HTC and Google but there are a lot of gaps still obviously.
I have no desire to make money off of this, just to get something like this in the market. Maybe a job would be nice haha
The only problem I see would be running honeycomb only when docked unless we plan on always running honeycomb
ellis125 said:
The only problem I see would be running honeycomb only when docked unless we plan on always running honeycomb
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha thats just me being hopeful. It could run gingerbread or icecream
I'd buy this.
Another cool thing about it, it could run off of the Evo's service. You wouldnt have to get an extra plan to use it.
I'm not sure what the Atrix is, but were you thinking something like the phone in that motorola commercial where the guy is in custody at the airport, and trying to tell the cop that its a phone, AND a computer?
Now, if we can just get the batt issue fixed on our lovely evos; I'm wondering whats needed to power the lcd?
davilu said:
Now, if we can just get the batt issue fixed on our lovely evos; I'm wondering whats needed to power the lcd?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
could have its own battery right?
jasongthang said:
I'd buy this.
Another cool thing about it, it could run off of the Evo's service. You wouldnt have to get an extra plan to use it.
I'm not sure what the Atrix is, but were you thinking something like the phone in that motorola commercial where the guy is in custody at the airport, and trying to tell the cop that its a phone, AND a computer?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah it would just be an extension of the phone, service and all. The atrix is that phone you mentioned with the laptop dock, but they use a custom linux operating system that boots when the phone is "docked". This could either just mirror the existing OS or could load honeycomb or some other operating system.
This is awesome and all. But again, how will touch inputs work? Has anyone attempted to get clone the screen, via HDMI, to a touchscreen panel and have it work both ways on inputs?
That all happens at the hardware level, PCB, etc., etc.
This is an excellent concept but unless the phone is built with being able to use an EXTERNAL touchscreen it's not going to work.
jasongthang said:
could have its own battery right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah exactly, just like the Atrix laptop dock.
There's definately room there for three flat batteries between the screen and the and case. If the can fit batteries in the Galaxy Tab 10.1 or the IPad 2, they can do it here.
Thank for all of the responses, I guess I'll have to make some new renders soon with the phone and different angles to keep up the interest
goodboynyc said:
This is awesome and all. But again, how will touch inputs work? Has anyone attempted to get clone the screen, via HDMI, to a touchscreen panel and have it work both ways on inputs?
That all happens at the hardware level, PCB, etc., etc.
This is an excellent concept but unless the phone is built with being able to use an EXTERNAL touchscreen it's not going to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's the hardest part about this, and you're entirely right. We need some way of essentially splicing into the EVO 4G's digitizer and pretending that the tablet's touchscreen is the same. That, or we can emulate touch as a mouse (which is enabled on custom ROMS) and send signals via bluetooth, which would be very laggy and battery intensive.
I know that you can buy touch screen overlays for netbooks that enable touch over USB, so there is hope! Unfortunately, these usually are single touch and not very accurate, and they are another layer that needs to be applied to the screen.
I think that if HTC or any large company were to create a tablet like this, they would be able to integrate a solution with a phone the way the Atrix works. Hopefully this becomes a trend!
Sweet idea. I'd love to have this set up. I hope HTC likes it.
Sent from my rooted EVO using tapatalk!
a tab that makes calls??????!!!!!!!
where do I buy one? don't give me prices, take mah munny and gimme!
This looks really neat, and with recent HDMI developments almost possible.
Its amazing. If htc is not interested maybe some chinese manufacturer could help. It is really a good idea.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
So I have been talking with some friends, and I am going to go ahead with a KickStarter for a modular phone.
Now before you say: "That has been tried", you are right. However, Project Ara and Phonebloks were just TOO out there. The engineers that thought those projects were a good idea need to be beat -- but I digress.
What I have in mind is a little more like a PC. You have a case (shell), you have RAM, and CPU/GPU, power supply (battery)
In the shell, you get the cameras, touch sensor, screen, choice of single or dual batteries.
The only components that will be replaceable are:
* CPU (which has the GPU and modem)
* NAND
* Battery
Basically the idea is that you pick a "shell" that you like:
* 5" / 5.5" / 6" (OLED / LCD)
* Camera choices [insert here]
* Single or dual battery
* Single or dual SIM
etc
CPU/GPU
* SD820
* SD835
* SD845
NAND
* 16gig
* 32gig
* 64gig
* 128gig
These are just examples... The purpose of this post is to get ideas on what YOU want. There can only be so many choices, or manufacturing would be a nightmare.
The important part is that you would be able to UPGRADE. Say a SD855 comes out, you don't throw / sell your whole phone, you just pull out the CPU/GPU module and replace it.
So, give me some ideas as to what should be in the shell. IP67 / IP68 will probably not be possible. I don't know enough to say one way or the other right now, but assume it isn't.
Again, this is JUST hardware, don't worry about the software side of things. I will outline what I have in mind, in the next post, along with how security will be handled. Suffice it to say, I will take what I have learned about POSSIBLE holes, and close them. From the factory, the phone will be the more secure than the iPhone, but more importantly, if YOU want to control that security, you will be able to. More to come when I finish crafting up the software / security post.
-- Brian
So, software and security, how can you eat your cake and have it too?
By default, the phone will come locked. It will use an RSA key that is kept under lock and key. There will be no traditional download mode, or recovery. There will be no adb, no fastboot.
When you boot the phone, the only thing you will get is the OS. So let's say a kernel exploit comes along, or something like Janus that allows you to modify a signed app -- there is no way to install it because you won't even have a terminal. All thanks to SELinux. But OK, someone finds some exploit to modify system -- it is write protected at the hardware level.
I have had a LOT of time to think about how to seal every last hole in Andorid, but, I will be consulting with actual security experts to make sure nothing is missed. I mean look at the Switch, if you have the right hardware you can use attack vectors that you might not think of from a "closed box" mentality -- I want to avoid those as well.
So, how do you get control of YOUR phone?
When the phone boots, you will be required to input a PIN, password, key (I am not sure about the technical details on this one yet) that will give you access to an unlock port. In the future, if you want to unlock your phone, you will go to a website just like you do to unlock carrier free LG phones, and download a file that is unique to your phone. This will NOT void your warranty. You will then use this file, along with your (pin, password, key) to unlock your phone.
It will be done this way for a couple of reasons. Before getting the file, you will be made aware that your phone's security is now YOUR responsibility. If you leave it unlocked, then anyone that has physical access to it can install pretty much whatever they want.
Once unlocked, you will have access at the PBL level. If you just want root, you can flash a vendor supported version of TWRP (no point in reinventing the wheel), you will then be able to flash a vendor supported kernel that will allow you to modify system. Viola -- you have root.
So how do you secure your phone again? You will have the ability to install your own RSA key. There will be three modes that the phone will run in:
* Fully secure stock from factory
* Fully unlocked
* Relocked with YOUR key.
This last mode will have two modes:
* Hybrid - all the firmware is still verified by the factory key, but boot and system are verified with your key.
* Developer - all the firmware needs to be signed with your key.
Tools will be provided to make this very easy, but at the end of the day, if you have an unlocked phone, security is up to you.
So how about OTA updates? They will only be available on a factory locked phone. Once the phone is unlocked, you will have to download updates yourself. If you have installed your own keys, then you will be able to sign the updates. This allows you to keep your phone locked. If you have a fully unlocked phone, then you can just flash the unsigned updates.
By updates, so far I have been referring to just the firmware, not the OS. So what about the OS?
From the factory, the phone will ship with bone stock Android. As long as you don't install another ROM, you will be able to update your OS as well.
So what if you want to install another ROM? Have at it, but you can no longer take OS updates -- but you can take firmware updates.
So what about third party ROMs? It is always a bit of a pain to get a ROM running a new phone because vendors don't want to help -- we will. We will have a development community run by our programmers for the specific purpose of helping to get a ROM ported.
So you don't want to run Android? Fine, again, you will be able to have access all the way from the PBL. You can't modify the PBL -- that is on the CPU, but the first thing that the PBL loads is the XBL, and you will be able to run whatever you want.
So how do we get this past the FCC? Modem firmware will be the one no no. Sorry, that is just life. Take it up with the FCC. The thing is, you will have no reason to modify, or install different modem firmware. From the factory, all bands will be available, so you gain nothing.
If all of this sounded to technical, then I can sum it up with -- the phone will be yours. Do as little or as much as you want with it. Just know that from the factory, it will be the most secure phone ever made -- but also, even if you modify it, YOU can KEEP it secure.
-- Brian
Reserved for FAQ
runningnak3d said:
snip-- Brian
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do we do, donate a certain amount of money? If that's the case, is it fair to say this would need about 100k to get going? I know China can manufacture things really cheap. Though I think there is much more too it.
Also I want to see a quad DAC. Dual speakers, Dolby Atmos. Refresh rate of 120 like the Razer phone. 4gb of ram. SD card slot. Official XDA Android with XDA labs baked in.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
I am willing to donate too ☺
BROKEN1981 said:
So what do we do, donate a certain amount of money? If that's the case, is it fair to say this would need about 100k to get going? I know China can manufacture things really cheap. Though I think there is much more too it.
Also I want to see a quad DAC. Dual speakers, Dolby Atmos. Refresh rate of 120 like the Razer phone. 4gb of ram. SD card slot. Official XDA Android with XDA labs baked in.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want any app baked into my OS that is not mandatory for the phone to work.
Going along the lines of what has been done on the v20, including a 3.5mm jack would be sweet. So many phones are getting rid of them and they are still a very useful port. Also a nice dac and amp of some sort to output great audio would be awesome. If possible, up the capacity of the battery from the v20's 3200 mAh. It just isn't enough in some cases.
toastyp said:
Going along the lines of what has been done on the v20, including a 3.5mm jack would be sweet. So many phones are getting rid of them and they are still a very useful port. Also a nice dac and amp of some sort to output great audio would be awesome. If possible, up the capacity of the battery from the v20's 3200 mAh. It just isn't enough in some cases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thankfully, a DAC implies that there is an analog audio jack. Otherwise, what are you converting? I mean, it's not technically a rule because you could do something insane (and proprietary) with the USB-C port, but why?
I would like to see a quad DAC and 120hz screen. A back power button with the fingerprint scanner would also be nice
Since most people here are going to be V20 owners, I think the V20 chassis is a solid starting point. Ignoring all the hypothetically changeable hardware components, what we have left to consider are a screen, fingerprint reader, A/V options, port connectivity, camera, and aesthetic design considerations.
Personally, I would just clone the V20 and make the main and secondary screens OLED. I think the curved corners that have become the rage on newer phones are stupid (We spent over a decade getting away from rounded corners in UI design, and now people want them physically on their screens? FOH), but the screen must be 18:9 if those are going to make an appearance. Some people might prefer the 3.5mm jack on top, but it has no practical effect on me either way. Stereo speakers could be a consideration, but I don't use phone speakers for music playback.
Apart from that, I have a hard time thinking of other hardware features or predicting what hardware features may catch on in the future.
VZW compatibility
Implementing the volume rocker on the back instead of the side is a must. It'd add a touch of originality again since LG decided to join the bandwagon
Edit: and adding an extra hardware button we can map. Like how you can map the Bixby button on the galaxies
Always wondered why know one attempted to do this years ago, upgradable like a pc.
But i think you can go one step further and give a choice of screens also OLED or LCD since you say you have the software side covered then implementing different screens but the same size would be easy.
in the shell i guess a dedicated dac, ear phone jack,
Would this be modular as In DIY upgradable nand/cpu or would it be made to order.
I see alot of brickwalls as you cannot simply order a snapdragon 835 online in single digits....so im guessing this is made to order to your preference.
There a companys where you can do this but the quantity is in the hundreds where you make to order slap your logo on.
Not really sure what the aim is?
Zyker019 said:
Implementing the volume rocker on the back instead of the side is a must. It'd add a touch of originality again since LG decided to join the bandwagon
Edit: and adding an extra hardware button we can map. Like how you can map the Bixby button on the galaxies
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would never buy a device with volume on the back. It makes no sense.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
Software post updated, and I will update the FAQ, and hardware sections ASAP. To address some of the posts so far, yes, it WILL have a 3.5mm analog jack. I need to do some research, but I may add the DAC as a replaceable part.
@goulash2011 Yea, purchasing quantity is something I am working on.
This is a build to order phone, but it will be up (or downgradeable).
-- Brian
Umm well, I am not sure why this didn't turn up in my first searches for modular phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/design/
If you read their site, it sound like I ripped this post straight from it. I didn't. They have the exact idea, but it appears that they are having some issues with demand (you have to get on a waiting list). Also, the modules haven't been updated in a while. If nothing else, it proves it can be done, I am going to contact them and try to find out when they plan on (or if they do) releasing an SD835 module, and for that matter a 2k screen.
They actually went above and beyond what I had in mind for modules... if you have the time, their site is a good read. They are also looking to be very open with the software, but it doesn't look like they care as much about security.
-- Brian
This project sounds really cool and I have got a few ideas for the cameras sensors:
OV12890 - 1.55 µm / 12MP / 240fps /1080p / 60fps 4K 1/2.3"
This is an Omnivison sensor (probably cheaper than an IMX) which is basically a carbon copy of the IMX 378 with bumped up fps in video. I know these are FPS in perfect hardware conditions, but with a snapdragon 835 and native support for HDR this camera may be one of the best in a smartphone from a hardware perspective.
OS08A10 - 2 µm / 8MP / 120fps 1080p / 60fps 4K / 1/2"
I know this is a bit of a stretch, the sensor is very large in the smartphone industry but i am sure you can make space for it. Just imagine coupled with a low aperture lens the low light shots and videos from this thing .
IMX230 - 1.12 µm / 21MP / 60fps 1080p / 30fps 4K / 1/2.4"
This Sony IMX sensor may not seem too impressive but the photos are packed with detail especially when paired with Googles HDR algorithm, from a software standpoint this can be the perfect ratio of pixel size to MP, so you can sacrifice megapixels although still retain the same detail with a 12MP image with virtually no noise. While the pictures are very nice, videos are mostly just above average with nothing too fancy.
All of these sensors are not really mainstream so prices should not be to bad.
I think you could also make dual camera setups where people can buy basically two sensors in special enclosure, a nice combination would be the OV12890 and the IMX 230 with the OV12890 being the main sensor doing video and primary camera functions while IMX is 230 more in the back end which can enhance the resolution, de-noise images, add more data in RAW shots, maybe be used as a telephoto or wide angle sensor and of course portrait mode.
Another dual setup could be simply two OV12890 sensors with again the second sensor adding portrait capabilities, more RAW data, ect... but a key feature could be true 480fps 1080p slo motion I know this may sound stupid but when the primary sensor takes its first frame the secondary sensor takes its frame from the interval between the time it takes to get to the second frame to be taken which essentially doubles the frames per second, this may be possible but the snapdragon 835 although it may not be able to support this as it is a very stressful workload, you could do what Sony did with XZ Premium with short bursts of slo mo or instead of rendering the image live, it can be done at the end where the software stitches the video together. This can also work in favor for HDR stitching with both sensors taking burst photos giving double the output of a conventional sensor.
That was a very insightful post, and all of it doable. However, I have to find out what problems fairphone is running into:
* Noise on the bus?
* General manufacturing problems
* Money problems? Can't generate enough cash to buy in large enough quantity?
* Patent issues?
My main beef is still software. My G4 runs Oreo just fine, but nooooo LG wants me to buy a V30 if I want Oreo. That is horsesh**
-- Brian
runningnak3d said:
Umm well, I am not sure why this didn't turn up in my first searches for modular phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/design/
If you read their site, it sound like I ripped this post straight from it. I didn't. They have the exact idea, but it appears that they are having some issues with demand (you have to get on a waiting list). Also, the modules haven't been updated in a while. If nothing else, it proves it can be done, I am going to contact them and try to find out when they plan on (or if they do) releasing an SD835 module, and for that matter a 2k screen.
They actually went above and beyond what I had in mind for modules... if you have the time, their site is a good read. They are also looking to be very open with the software, but it doesn't look like they care as much about security.
-- Brian
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think I see the problem. The mods are a bit expensive, not too many people would be interested, meaning hardly any demand. To keep cost down, you need to involve China. Look at the growing pains of 1+.
I hate to be so negative, but upgradable phones will always be a dead project.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
BROKEN1981 said:
I think I see the problem. The mods are a bit expensive, not too many people would be interested, meaning hardly any demand. To keep cost down, you need to involve China. Look at the growing pains of 1+.
I hate to be so negative, but upgradable phones will always be a dead project.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not being negative.. Just setting a marketing reality. Which I completely agree with. It's to far and beyond for the current market of things.