Database Users

Free Program Memory problems in XDA Mini

Does anyone experience the free program memory problems in XDA Mini? In my case, after a day of usage, the memory reduce to 14 mb, when doing a soft reset, the free program memory go up to 24 mb, means I need to soft reset every days?
Note: normally I use the phone, Pocket Informant (calendar, contacts) and sms only.

Instead of doing soft reset, just go into:
Settings - System - Memory - (Running Programs tab).
You'll probably find a lot of open programs there. Close them.
Seems to be a major design fault in the Windows Mobile OS. But then again this is product from Microsoft we are talking about - not exactly a shock that they would, without hesitation, release software with such a major failing.

I think what IvorNeo 2 means is that even without any active programs, the storage/program memory will become very low over time. This has happened to me as well. With only Activesync and Batmon 2 active, memory level fell to sub-500K level and phone needed a soft-reset to regain functionality. Phone was not in use at the time (charging).
There are some other threads discussing how to free up memory, but I haven't come across any fixes for this particular bug (yet).

i have the same problem
in my s100 , the memory reduce to 19 mb,after 2 or 3 days when doing a soft reset, the free program memory go up to 27 mb
mhtay
There are some other threads discussing how to free up memory, but I haven't come across any fixes for this particular bug (yet).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very nice , if someone can solve this bug
Regards

For me there are are 3 reasons why memory starts to decline:
Activesync eats up about 3MB each time you sync up and though it returns some when you kill the app it does not return the entire amount
html cache files when I surf with the device - gotta empty these along with the cookies...etc
duplicate processes and notification ques that pile up when you soft-reset the device. Over time these tiny bytes add up.
There's no fix for the main culprit of the memory loss - Activesync, maybe newer versions won't be so bad.

the same problem to me, I`m nor sure if it`s beacuse of aactive sync

This happens to my girlfriend's Mini and she does not browse nor does she use Activesync. Also I installed a program to get rid of the duplicate ques. In theory then she should not lose memory but she still does. It is just how Windows works....when you use programs you never get back 100% of the memory upon closing. Soft resets are just a necessary evil with Windows.

The latest version of SKTools has an additional neat feature to free-up RAM.

sk tools very useful program
but even this one works not so good as a soft reset.

Or with 64 mb RAM you can use oxios memory
http://www.oxios.com/memory/
be sure your programm memory less than 21mb while trying to free your memory up.

I have quite a lot of programs installed, most of them in Storage and TT5.x in SD card. Most DLL's also in Storage. I set my Prog Storage memory to 6.5-7 MB and I have over 30 MB for programs after applying SKTools FreeUp RAM utility.

rustoss said:
Or with 64 mb RAM you can use oxios memory
http://www.oxios.com/memory/
be sure your programm memory less than 21mb while trying to free your memory up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Isn't this a smartphone software? Will it work on wm5?

find out!
for magician good solution

@rustoss,
does this little applet close the running processes automatically once exitted?
thanx

hibernate.exe emulate filling memory till 90% & then system trying to clean possible RAM by itself i think so, i know exactly this action do the SKtools's freeupRAM, noone prog or process cannot be terminated by both.
closeapps.exe can!

a question about the topic: Rustoss do u have posted any prog here? because I'm not seeing it if it is
MocciJ

No, just put

Universal, jasJAR memory does not match specs

The reported/quoted imate specs say 128MB flash ROM and 64MB SDRAM.
My device reports:
Storage Memory Total 43.72MB
Program Memory Total 47.93MB
With no applications other than the branded OS installed (33.05MB 'In use by both Storage and Programs) giving that leaves
Storage Memory Free 30.47MB
Program Memory Free 28.14MB
Where is the missing 158MB of memory? How can I access the missing memory?
Also, what happens if I install applications to the SD card. Do they still work?

Yes, they would still work if you instlal programms on storage card.
This is strange, as I think there should be more storage memory than you have right now. About 17 Megs of your memory is also being used by useless cab files which were there for the first time install.. There are ways and means to reformat the drive and actually gain all this space (Extended_Rom) but it involves some advanced tricks in doing this. Nevertheless The rom should more storage not just 40 Megs (?) can someone else confirm this is the available ROM on the JasJar?

I can't add up
My earlier post should not say missing 158MB of memory, cause if you add up my figures there is just 100MB missing. Had a long day messing around with my new device, and as I say my maths ain't that hot anyway.
Thanks for the advice on installing apps to the storage card.

Same here 43.72MB Storage memory and 47.93MB Program memory.
Not happy.

memory
Expansys website states the following specs:
Memory
• Flash ROM: 128 MB
• RAM: 64 MB SDRAM
can be found here:
http://www.expansys.com.au/product.asp?code=119353
If it doesnt match, I would be sending it back, or sueing for false advertising.

What the hell is going on here, $1650 for this device and it has less memory than a Jam and lieing on the website. mmmmmmmm, I would be mad, real mad, someone should die for this, this is worse than the new Telstra boss.

memory
yeah i already ordered mine and am waiting on it to see. i know the way it interprets and runs is different to previous versions, ie my understanding is a hard reset retains its data, so it means it installs directly to ROM and stays there.
From that I can only summise that you can install a maximum of 128 meg of operating system and software direct to ROM, but can only run a maximum of 64 meg into RAM at any point in time, including the operating system, data, and applications.
Then you only use the RAM when you launch the applications, but this would also require the ppc to use some of it, which would appear to be about 20 meg from the previous stats, leaving a max of 40 meg to actually be running at any point in time.
Anyway, wait and see, hopefully should only be about a week as we are on the otherside of the world from where most people are getting them from.
Eitherway, it appears to the best state of the art phone currently available, so we'll just have to see.
Anybody that has already got one, how long does the battery last when running the WIFI? I know my XDAII with a Netgear CF can be drained in a little over 1 hour including the backpacks battery and the main battery.

ROM and RAM size fine
On my JASJAR bought in Dubai yesterday the Device Information says:
RAM Size:64Mb
Flash Size: 128MB
The way Windows Mobile 5.0 manages memory is differnet to Windows Mobile as all the memory is persistent. So you don't lose your data when the device powers off.
But it uses the RAM and ROM more like a PC. The Memory Settings area shows the Storage and Program memories.
The 128Mb of ROM is used for storing the Operating System and for storing user data! The OS takes up about 84.5Mb, leaving on my device 43.5Mb for Storage.
The 64Mb RAM is RAM for running programs. The OS takes about 16Mb at runtime leaving the 47.93Mb Program memory for me to run my programs.

Re: ROM and RAM size fine
vpreHoose said:
On my JASJAR bought in Dubai yesterday the Device Information says:
RAM Size:64Mb
Flash Size: 128MB
The way Windows Mobile 5.0 manages memory is differnet to Windows Mobile as all the memory is persistent. So you don't lose your data when the device powers off.
But it uses the RAM and ROM more like a PC. The Memory Settings area shows the Storage and Program memories.
The 128Mb of ROM is used for storing the Operating System and for storing user data! The OS takes up about 84.5Mb, leaving on my device 43.5Mb for Storage.
The 64Mb RAM is RAM for running programs. The OS takes about 16Mb at runtime leaving the 47.93Mb Program memory for me to run my programs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how much price did u pay for imate jasjar in Dubai.
thx

I am dissapointed. My PDA2K has all my major apps installed and still has 18MB free.
The jasJAR with just tomtom5 installed has only 20MB free.

The OS takes up about 84.5Mb
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Huh? when i loaded 2005 on my BA, the OS was 32mb???

Amount of user mamory in Universal

I would like to verify the amount of user accessible memory on JasJar. I have the test unit with 1.11 system, but what bothers me much is the problem of memory - In the Settings\DeviceInformation\Hardware I have:
RAM size 64 MB,
FLASH SIZE 128 MB,
Storage Size 43.72
But If I open Settings\Memory it is only
Storage 43.72 MB
Program 47.93 MB
Where is the rest to fill 128 MB??
lukasz

I think (although i may be wrong) that the OS and preinstalled apps are using 84.28mb of the storage memory (the ROM - hence only 128 - 84.28 = 43.72mb storage available) and a portion of the RAM when running (hence only 47mb of the 64mb of RAM being available). Remember that WM5 uses ROM for persistant storage of data and RAM is used in the same way your desktop PC does (state, running code, cache etc).
...also - 'user mamory' ? :shock:

tintoy said:
'user mamory' ? :shock:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bet he feels a right tit!

RAM
HI
If i see the possible amount of RAM (for the running program) it's 47,93 Mb. After hardreset (before install any application and stopping the automatic loadaded program) i can use just about 30 Mb. It's normaly? Can I enlarge it somehow?
Breki

Re: RAM
Breki said:
HI
If i see the possible amount of RAM (for the running program) it's 47,93 Mb. After hardreset (before install any application and stopping the automatic loadaded program) i can use just about 30 Mb. It's normaly? Can I enlarge it somehow?
Breki
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. 47Mb is what you get AFTER the WM5 core OS parts have been loaded. Anything that is taken up from there (47-30Mb is 17Mb) are today plugins, applications, task switchers, operator customizations etc. Unlike WM 2003SE and earlier editions, there is no slider anymore, and the available RAM memory is fixed. So either wait for PPCTechs to provide a RAM upgrad efor the HTC Universal or limit yourself in the choice of starting up your most crucial applications. (and use a task switcher to close the programs instead of minimizing them ;-)

A RAM upgrade would not increase the program storage available (and would only shorten the battery life). It woudl only increase the amount of memeory available for running applications and this si hardly under stress even at 64Mb.
A ROM DOC upgrade would be a different matter. I ntoice the repalcement for the Dell Axim X50v has 256Mb ROM - very much a WM5 design consideration!

Re: RAM
I understand, but when i have just 30 Mb I was after hardreset. No plugin, no other programs, with the reset i stopped the antivirus and other factory default program load from extended ROM. No installed programs, full empty. Just the brand new PDA. How can free the 47-30 Mb RAM?
Breki

Maybe because you have a test unit with a pre-release of the WM5 OS? I suggest you ask I-Mate to provide you with a release version of the WM5 OS first.

Eh? So are you saying that after a hard reset, prior to any operator customisation apps running (ie, a with a very clean base installation of WM5 running), you only have 30Mb RAM? (and i guess you also have a little more ROM as none of the apps have installed to storage memory from the extended ROM).
To clarify: when do you have 30Mb free RAM and when do you have 47.93Mb free RAM?[/u]

Wiz said:
Maybe because you have a test unit with a pre-release of the WM5 OS? I suggest you ask I-Mate to provide you with a release version of the WM5 OS first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As i see maybe
My ROM is 1.12.38WWE
Radio 1.03.00
Protokol42.36.P8
How can i get an actual ROM?
Breki

Breki said:
As i see maybe
My ROM is 1.12.38WWE
Radio 1.03.00
Protokol42.36.P8
How can i get an actual ROM?
Breki
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have 1.12.42WWE, but that is in my MDA Pro. Anyway, 1.12.38 looks like a release verison to me, not a test version.

My JasJar, as bought from Tottenham Court Road (so definitely not a test model) is as follows:
Rom Version: 1.12.38 WWE
ROM Date: 08/24/05
Radio Version: 1.03.00
Protocol Version: 42.36.P8
ExtROM Version: 1.12.120 WWE
No idea what my free memory is like after a hard reset, but I have over 30Mb free when it's in it's normal state (with Pocket Breeze running etc)...

Memory amout -again
Sub 69 - just to make things clear could you please post the following:
In the Settings\DeviceInformation\Hardware:
RAM size ? MB,
FLASH SIZE ? MB,
Storage Size ? MB.
And in Settings\Memory
Storage ? MB
Program ? MB
Lukasz

Thanks to my running SBSH weather, SBSH pocket breezee and pocket plus I get down to about 20Mb free before I've even done anything!

In my case, running SPB Diary, SPB Pocket Plus and PocketZenPhone leaves me with 25Mb RAM free.
But, please do not forget that:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Init also contains services that are launched and that come out of the RAM
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Services also contains services & apps that are launched and that come out of the RAM
I am curious to see how much memory will be free when booted up in safe mode

Wiz said:
I am curious to see how much memory will be free when booted up in safe mode
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How can I do that?
Breki

Lucasz...
RAM: 64Mb
Flash 128Mb
Storage: 43.72Mb
Storage Tot: 43.72
Storage Used: 9.50
Storage Free: 34.22
Program Tot: 47.93
Program Used: 17.64
Program Free: 30.29
Although after a soft reset, I think there's more free Program memory.
Am in a hurry to get home for the football now though...back later!

Does anyone have any rec's. for applications that can break down memory usage on a per process basis (like the windows task manager)? I'd like to see which ones are the memory hogs and decide if I really do need them... I hear pocket plus is a killer!

Memory management...
Hmmm, Just to stop for a little while on the "Program" memory subject -
After few hours of regular use I have verified that have 15.11 MB available, after RunningPrograms \STOP ALL there was 15.21, but after softreset there is 19.79 ! so there is definately some kind of the unlisted or "system" proceses which steal RAM. I hope it will be solved in the future releases of the system. Some kind of the task manager to see what is going on would be a nice thing. Luk

tintoy said:
Does anyone have any rec's. for applications that can break down memory usage on a per process basis (like the windows task manager)? I'd like to see which ones are the memory hogs and decide if I really do need them... I hear pocket plus is a killer!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i read somewhere on here that memmaid works fine in wm5, that shows processess running and alot of other info

How to Manage memory on Wing

I always find issue with T-Mobile Memory. I am using the twick by Modaco and have Physical Memory of 20 MB but the same time dynamic Storage memory is killling the phone. Most of the time is only 6 MB. Any suggestion how to free up more rame from this device?

any advise?

What are you running? DO you have a memory program like SKTools or Memmaid??? Also, WM6 is a huge memory hog in case you didn't know?

20080616> Can WM 6.1 have 64 MB Program Memory?

Requests/suggestions please for WM 6.1 cookers considering their next release:
- 64 MB Program Memory
- Absolute bare skeleton WM 6.1
- essential candidates for removal:
> customer feedback
> windows live
> any windows help & support related bloatware
> error reporting
> search
> windows media player
> any animated items, icons, etc..
> junk items under \windows; unnecessary gif,jpg,bmp,png
etc, text files
- single boot screen, no splash, animations etc..
minimize WM 6.1 boot time
- removal of other misc bloatware, vaporware that are not
core to the function, speed and stability of WM 6.1
======================================================
To the site Administrators:
-------------------------
- can we initiate a donation bucket in which people may contribute
and pool donations?
- 1 month period (or other) in which donations can be collected and
cookers may submit their best releases
- the people (users) vote during the period on what they find to be
the most efficient, stable, fast, clean and best performing rom.
- at the end of the period the donation pool is distributed to the top 3
most voted cookers, e.g. 60%/25%/15% respectively.
======================================================
Suggestions, ideas, recommendations, criticism etc certainly
welcome.
Thanks to all
--kara

64M program memory mean No WM.

why?
is there a maximum?
Thanks,

ks1781 said:
why?
is there a maximum?
Thanks,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are really someone )
Trinity have only 64MB build in , how come it have 64MB program memory ? DId you have brain ?

--yes,
if the device has 64 MB SDRAM, why is it that most cooked roms
generally present approx. 50 MB of that?
is this a limitation or is missing 14 MB used for a special purpose?
Thanks for any advice.

?? because it takes up space to install the operating system.. even a 'bare bones' operating system is still an operating system..
did you ever wonder why there's space missing from your hard drive after you install windows xp?

http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=470
Memory ROM: 128 MB
RAM: 64 MB SDRAM
What is the ROM 128 MB designated for?
Thanks for your patience with me.
--kara

if i understand him correctly, he is referring to the program memory i.e. RAM not ROM. the 128MB ROM is meant for installation of OS (WM) where the 64MB RAM is the execution power. we normally get ~20MB-25MB RAM free out of 64MB total. i believed the rest (64MB - 25MB) was used for other services once WM started.

yes, that is what i'm trying to understand..
in this p3600 specification from HTC:
http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=470
it lists>
128 MB ROM
64 MB RAM
=================================================
for the 128 MB ROM
I assume the 128 MB ROM contains the OS installation, with
some component of this ROM hidden/reserved.
E.g. some cooked roms released have 'Big Storage'
~70 MB available to the user for NV storage
the remaining 58 MB comprises OS installation and a reserved
area.
=================================================
for the 64 MB RAM
This is the volatile memory available for the OS to boot & run, and
for program execution.
However, on most cooked roms I have used, under
Settings -> System -> Memory
'Program Total' is reported as ~50 MB.
So my question is - where is the remaining 14 MB RAM??

as dum as it sounds i've wondered about that too
even formatting issues aside (like how hard drive capacity is always lower than reported), 14MB seems like a lot to 'go missing'.
why doesnt WM even report it? because its being used by the system for services? so then why does it ALSO report itself using around 20MB of what's left?
that way, it's like 14 MB used (hidden) + approx. 20MB reported (shown) = approx. 34MB total? :/ hmm

ks1781 said:
So my question is - where is the remaining 14 MB RAM??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK - You have a PC with 1GB of RAM say. Once say windows xp has booted up - your AV started etc. you probably have 684MB say of RAM left, so Where did the other 340MB of RAM go to?
Think about it.

wtf i still don't get it... dont be mad
i mean mine reports 2096236 KB... a full 2048MB of RAM
BUT of course 100-300 minimum will always be in use for the system itself
whereas in WM, it reports like 48MB total, AND say approx. 20MB in use
ok so the 20MB minimum in use will ALWAYS be in use because of windows mobile itself. FINE.
but why does it only represent 48MB as available?
and if that is the case, there's that missing unreported 12MB, PLUS that minimum 20MB always in use
that's what im curious about

Just think that Windows XP takes 250/300 mb of ram space....
PS: Please edit your title... Someone could understand that you really have a 64mb free ram rom......

joncgde2 said:
wtf i still don't get it... dont be mad
i mean mine reports 2096236 KB... a full 2048MB of RAM
BUT of course 100-300 minimum will always be in use for the system itself
whereas in WM, it reports like 48MB total, AND say approx. 20MB in use
ok so the 20MB minimum in use will ALWAYS be in use because of windows mobile itself. FINE.
but why does it only represent 48MB as available?
and if that is the case, there's that missing unreported 12MB, PLUS that minimum 20MB always in use
that's what im curious about
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe it is for the Radio Rom etc...or maybe Microsoft are stealing Ram and stockpiling it....lol

This is actually a valid question.
The system has 64MB of ram, some how 14MB of this ram is allocated away before the OS loads. This leaves 50MB of ram left for the OS, which uses about 20 MB and leaves 30 MB of ram for applications.
I think everyone understands this part.
The question is, what part of the phone is pre-allocating 14MB of ram.
My only guess is the videocard, if not that then it might be the pagefile.

tetsuo55 said:
This is actually a valid question.
The system has 64MB of ram, some how 14MB of this ram is allocated away before the OS loads. This leaves 50MB of ram left for the OS, which uses about 20 MB and leaves 30 MB of ram for applications.
I think everyone understands this part.
The question is, what part of the phone is pre-allocating 14MB of ram.
My only guess is the videocard, if not that then it might be the pagefile.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does it really matter where it goes? Obviously if that memory hasn't been exploited yet by the excellent cookers etc in here....then it can't be of any benefit.

I concur with tetsuo55.
The reasoning proposed by Andych and others still does not quite
correlate.
i.e. 64 = 14 (OS) + ~20 (progs) + ~30 free
the ~20 is supposedly attributed to basic progs,
e.g. phone, filesys, mail etc..
A listing of such process summates to approx. 8 MB total.
That still leaves 12 MB of unaccounted for basic function
and userland process consumption.
Regarding the ATI video chip, general investigation and
settings check of tcpmp would suggest at best it is a
4 MB chip (whether dedicated or shared)
I cant see the 'remaining ~14 MB' that I'm searching for
being used for paging. Paging is part of overall virtual memory,
and involves page outs/ins to a location on some type
of physical media. Additionally, with the usual ~ 30 MB
ram free, in the context of these devices, a swap requirement
is unlikely given the 'free' memory available.
Although 14 MB may seem peanuts compared to standard desktop
ram configurations today - with a p3600 + WM, recovering the
14 MB (if possible) would provide a much welcomed bonus to
the trinity.
--kara

ahh now we're onto something good work ks1781...
i fully agree with the need to just find out the answer to this... most likely it's something that will be perfectly explainable and make sense and we won't be able to do anything once we find out
but it sure would be nice to know

OK I have the 'answer' - straight from a Windows Mobile blog - I'll post it here cos it's all straight to the point and interesting (somewhat) Link is HERE
The Page Pool
Applications use RAM in two ways. There is code that runs, and there is data that is created while it is running. On a NOR device, the code can run directly from the ROM and not be loaded into RAM first. This process is called XIP (eXecute In Place). NAND devices can't XIP, so their code is loaded into RAM and executed from there. If you don't have a Page Pool, this code is loaded into normal RAM. The Page Pool is a mechanism to limit how much code is loaded into normal RAM. With a Page Pool, we can unload code that hasn't been used in a while and reload it later if we need to. We can't do that without a Page Pool.
On a typical NAND-based WM5 device, the Page Pool is 4.5M.
The Radio Stack
Devices with a Cellular Radio have a complicated bunch of code to make their radios talk to cell towers. On some devices, the radio is a self-contained module with its own RAM and ROM. On others, the radio code is stored in the normal system flash. If so, it either needs to XIP, or it needs to be run in RAM. If it's run in RAM, that RAM is taken away from the system.
A typical radio stack takes 4M.
DMA Buffers
Some hardware can write directly into RAM without using the CPU to do it. This is called "Direct Memory Access" or DMA. DMA is very efficient and lets you get a lot more data transferred in the same amount of time, usually for less power. But it's best to set aside your DMA buffers before the system boots. This guarantees that they're there when you need them. PocketPCs have been doing this for a decade. But, back in the old days, the main use for DMA was audio capture. Audio data is small, so the DMA buffers are also small. Video, on the other hand, is big. More data requires bigger DMA buffers.
An OEM will tune the size of the pre-allocated DMA buffers based on what the device is intended to do. If the main goal is still photos, you can use a much smaller buffer. If the goal is recording video, it needs a much larger buffer. If the goal is video conferencing, it needs a bigger buffer still.
DMA buffers range in size between 300K and 6M. For a video capture device, it's likely to use around 4M.
XIPKernel
There are portions of the deepest parts of the OS that have to XIP. If you're on NOR, that code just XIPs like everything else. Not so on NAND. For a NAND system to boot, it needs to load this code into RAM first and then run it from there. When the system is running, it can't really tell if it's running from RAM or ROM, so it assumes it's running from ROM and doesn't count this space.
The XIPKernel region tends to be between 1.5 and 2M.
The Frame Buffer
There is a chunk of RAM set aside to hold everything that's on the screen. (If you want to know more about it, read this.) On most devices, every dot on the screen needs two bytes. A typical Pocket PC has 240x320 dots. That would be 300K. If you have a 640x480 screen, it's 600K. Sometimes, for performance reasons, devices will have two frame buffers. So this could take up to 1.2M.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Thanks joncgde2 - good find which provides a sufficient explanation as to the 'hidden' 14 MB.
There is still another question.
WM reports ~24 MB in use (per earlier screen captures) - where 'in use'
is attributed to running applications.
Checking a process listing via task manager shows the total
apparent RAM in use by these 'running applications' to be ~8 MB.
Can anyone provide an explanation to account for the
remaining ~16 MB??