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HIMALAYA v1.60a and Memory

I have just upgrade my XDA2 to HIMALAYA v1.60a.
I have found a few problem regarding the memory usage:
- when I want to install a program into Program Memory (I only has this choice), it say size of Program Memory is 8M or so, but XDA2 says it has a lot more.
Please help me, how to get around with the memory problem?

Please choose the right version before installing....here is a short desc -
1.60a
This version's main advantage is persistant storage, meaning, you never loose your contacts, installations etc. even if your battery drains completely. For this reason, the 128megs is used as ram, and the 14 mb partition (flash disk) is used as storage (rom). So this limits storage space to around 14 megs...Unlock the extended rom (for an additional 16 megs). But then, you need to manage ur system root, which will still be 14 megs!
1.50i.xx (xx is 96, 64, 32)
This version is good for you if you need more on device storage space, the drawback is, you dont have persistant storage, as it uses a part of your system ram for its device root. The "xx" in the version number determines the ammount of program memory allocated within the ram. So if you need 32 megs storage, go for 1.50i.96, if you need 64 megs, go for 1.50i.64 and so on. If storage space is important, go for this version!
I'm on 1.60a, as I want persistant storage anyway
Last thing, get to http://www.buzzdev.net man! better place if you wanna be on WM2005 os!
San

Thank for the explaination, San. Now I got it.

Qtek 9000 Memory - where is all the memory????

I just bought a Qtek 9000 and noticed that it was considerably slower than my previous Qtek 9090. I am no expert on PDAs but when i looked at the memory allocation it was not clear why i had a Total of 50mb for running programs, and after a hard reset, out of the 50MB total only 27mb were available. Where is all the PDA's memory gone, could someone please explain clearly (for a novice) where did the 128MB RAM and 40MB Storage go ???? Also any ideas on how to make the Qtek 9000 faster and how to free up some of this memory????
Thanks in advance...

avensis said:
I just bought a Qtek 9000 and noticed that it was considerably slower than my previous Qtek 9090. I am no expert on PDAs but when i looked at the memory allocation it was not clear why i had a Total of 50mb for running programs, and after a hard reset, out of the 50MB total only 27mb were available. Where is all the PDA's memory gone, could someone please explain clearly (for a novice) where did the 128MB RAM and 40MB Storage go ???? Also any ideas on how to make the Qtek 9000 faster and how to free up some of this memory????
Thanks in advance...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can download DINARSOFT MEMMAID to see what programs are running and how much RAM each is eating (much like WINXP Taskmanager) where you could also terminate the process.
Here you will see why your 50MB RAM is down to 27mb.
And it's 128MB ROM not RAM. this is where the OS ROM is stored. Use Memmaid also and you will see that of this 128MB rom 70MB is for the OS (i thing the windows folder has 70MB worth of files on hard reset), 10MB for the Extended ROM and the rest are displayed in the memory icon as what is left.
I believe this is how the memory is set up. can anyone confirm what i explained above?

Yes, thanks for the info, but is my assumption true that if i have total 128MB ROM of which the 70MB is for the storage of the OS, and the 50 total has 24MB used for running the OS so i have about 26MB left for running my programs??? So really in total the OS is using most of the ROM for storing and running itself???? Rediculous when they advertize 128MB Rom giving the impression that you have a lot of memory for your use when really you don't. The bottom line is that no matter what i have about 26MB memory in total for running my programs. Correct?

Actually My ROM is something like this after a hard reset:
128MB ROM:
1. 70MB OS Image (Read Only files that cannot be deleted)
2. 44MB STORAGE
3. 10MB Extended ROM Image
This is most of it
the 64MB RAM is just what is actually running.
in memory under PROGRAM, it says 50MB. not sure where the other 14MB are but of the 50MB, what is in use are what the programs in Memmaid show as running application with corresponding MB consumed like cprog, gwes, etc.
Hope this cleared things up. Again, this is just my opinion on how the memory is distributed. I may be wrong. No one has verified i'm correct so i don't know.

Memory Allocation

I have a question which puzzles me - perhaps the knowledgeable amongst us can answer it for me.
I have 2 devices, an Orange SPV M2000 (Blue Angel) and an O2 MDA Mini S (Wizard).
When I look at the device info I see this
........................................BA......................Wizard
RAM Size.........................128MB....................64MB
Flash Size..........................32MB....................128MB
Storage Size..................43.26MB.................47.46MB
When I look at the Memory Screen, the BA has 125.77MB main memory showing 62.88MB allocated to Storage and 62.89MB allocated to Program and a slider to alter the split of memory.
When I look at the Memory on the Wizard there is no slider and it shows 44.76MB allocated to Storage and 44.01MB allocated to Program.
Whichever way I look at it I cannot seem to make sense of the figures.
Can someone explain (in simple terms) what these figures mean and why there is such a dramatic difference between the RAM and Flash sizes on these two devices?

First the major difference between Blue Angel and Wizard. Blue Angel stores everything - your programs, data, etc. in RAM. It uses this same RAM for program memory. That's why you get a slider. It's also why, if your battery runs out or your reset it, you lost all your stuff. The Wizard, on the other hand, has memory dedicated for data/settings storage that's like flash memory (so you won't lose your stuff), and different memory for the RAM.
depending on the ROM/ExtRom/Radio Stack, etc. installed there's...
128MB total ROM
of which
44MB is available for storage of applications/user files
the rest is the operating system, extrom, etc.
and
64MB total RAM
of which
49MB is available for running programs/memory
the rest of which is the PIM running in the background, the phone running in the background, the radio stack running in the background, etc. All stuff that either the OEM or Microsoft decided you wouldn't want not running.

Thanks 'Z'.
Now it all makes more sense.

Sorry to resurrect a somewhat buried thread, but I was doing my research before posting by using the search function -- not bad for a newbie, eh? -- and ran across this thread which directly addresses some questions I've been dealing with, but I'd like to throw some stuff out to see if I understand completely.
As I understand it, the Wizard has 64MB of SDRAM, and 128MB of Flash storage memory, correct? On the developer.cingular.com it says 64MB Flash ROM and 128MB SDRAM which appears to be backwards.
On the device Memory manager after a hard reset and installing the Qtek 9100 customization .cab Storage shows Free 43.75 of 47.46MB and Program shows Free 27.18 of 44.01MB.
As I understand it, "Storage" is refering to the Flash non-volatile memory, and "Program" is referring to RAM, correct?
So this means that of the 128MB of flash memory, ~80MB is hidden, including the customization .cab. Of the 64MB of flash memory, more than half is taken up by OS, radio and other things.
Do I have that right?
Now, one more thing. If I drag a 5MB file onto the device, the storage in use increases 5MB but Program isn't affected. This makes perfect sense.
Syncing, however is a different story. A small test sync of email, contacts, and calendar uses 2.68 Storage memory but 3.7MB of Program memory.
I take it from this that when you sync, it writes the pim info to the flash memory but then also automatically expands it into system memory. Do I understand that correctly?
If I am correct, is there any registry hack or anything that can change this behavior? Would it really slow things down so much if your PIM info had to be taken out of Storage memory? Or am I missing something?
Thanks for any responses.
Gene

I hope no one minds that I bump this, it's been several days.
I'm fairly sure my basic understanding of the situation is correct: contacts etc are loaded into persistent memory (ROM) then loaded into system RAM as well -- I speculate to speed searches and such because RAM is so much faster than Flash memory.
However this has a drawback in that whereas a 64MB RAM-only ppc 2003 device was able to handle >5,000 contacts with ease, on the Wizard it takes almost all of the RAM.
I know it's possible to reduce the amount of RAM (and ROM for that matter) being used by other applications but I'm wondering if anyone has explored or figured out a way to keep the PIM info in ROM (registry hack, perhaps) until it's actually needed, and what the repercussions if any were, ie did it make using the pim info unbearably slow?

I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.

I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.

I'm sure they'll be increasing that in upcoming models. Only reason not to, typically, is to keep cost down a bit - and let the user add as much storage memory as they want; this is under the assumption that anything put on the storage card will work just fine, which is not the case with many applications :|

Simple questions on memory allocation

It took me a while to realize I'm confused, but it seems I'm confused about Hermes/WM5 memory allocation.
I've been using PocketPC's since PPC2000, there (and in PPC2002, PPC2003) the o/s resides in flash, and RAM is partitioned between storage and program memory. Thus, loading lots of applications to the device reduces the amount of program memory available for actually running programs. Those o/s had a slider to influence the balance of memory allocated.
Since I got my 8525 I've been assuming that it worked the same way, despite the loss of the memory slider. There have always been indications that I was wrong though - I never saw the memory balance shift, and nothing I've done seems to increase the program memory. Even removing several applications from Storage and installing them in Extended ROM didn't help. I'd LIKE to free up more program memory so apps like Mapopolis can use a LOT of it....
My Start->Settings->System->Memory page shows 56.22MB (Total) for Storage and 49.08MB (Total) for Program. When reading about the Samsung "stacked" (aka MCM) processor I realized that none of the variants listed had more than 64MB SDRAM, and 56.22+49.08 > 64!!!
It seems like either "Storage" now equals flash memory (vs volatile RAM in PPC2003 et al.) and/or there's more the 64MB of SDRAM in the Hermes or something. If all 64MB were available I'd expect more Program memory than 49MB....
I'm confused - Can someone explain or point me to an explanation of how the Hermes/WM5 allocates that SDRAM?
TIA,
Richard

Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM. See here:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_HardwareOverview

pof said:
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard

rsolomon said:
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These sometimes confuses people...
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total and then there is the rest running programs that take space, and about 30MB is free after clean boot on my device.
That's the way it has been programmed, mobile device programming is alot frustrating than on desktop PCs, so the memory handling is very important.
And don't mix those two when you said "56.22+49.08 > 64!!!", they are two separate memoryes. (56.xx being the 128 part and 49.xx being the 64 part).
Don't ask why microsoft excluded the memory allocation slider, maybe the older devices and OSs were differently programmed (memory handling).

gvoima said:
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That much is logical - not all 128MB of the flash is allocated to the file system mounted as "Storage" - clearly some is for Bootloader, Radio, etc.
Are you really saying the OS and user-writable storage share a filesystem? That seems counter-intuitive to me, though presumably there are user-inaccessible flags to prevent over-writing system files. In PPC2003 there was a ROM file system and a RAM filesystem overlaid so they appeared together. You seem to be saying that in WM5 the user filesystem lives in a portion of the flash - unlike a portion of RAM as it did in PPC2000-2003.
gvoima said:
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you're saying WM5 hides ~16MB worth of RAM usage? Did PPC2003 execute O/S files in place then? I mean I can see that the o/s and running programs would take up space, but it's unclear to me why WM5 would report total memory lower than 64MB in that case.
TIA,
Richard

See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903

Got it
pof said:
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, that's got it - the MSDN blog links (that Lurker0 linked http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1027392) at least squared me away. Lemme see if I can summarize my own questions:
0) Prior to WM5 most of the OS *was* eXecute In Place (XIP) - certainly on the devices I owned. Now most devices do not support XIP for most of the O/S so more RAM is used in general to compensate.
1) Prior to WM5, PocketPC "Storage" *was* in RAM (for user data), with WM5 it's ALL in flash. Thus there's no sense installing to ExtendedROM vs Storage, because you still can't free up any RAM
2) WM5 *does* hide ~15MB of RAM usage - because they want to. So "Program" really is RAM and it's just stupid that reported Total doesn't match physical Total.
I was tainted by my previous PPC exposure I guess. Half the RAM means that Mapopolis for instance will then always be slower on my WM5 device than on my PPC2003 device - half the SDRAM clock speed doesn't help here either (iPAQ 5555 vs Hermes)
Thanks all!
Richard

1. There are still reasons to use Extended ROM instead of the Storage. The Storage is required for many tasks by the OS, it is wise to keep at least some megs of it free. But, as you can read around, not everything is recomennded for installing on a flash card. Here the External ROM can be in help, adding the storage that is always accessible by OS, and is not used by other means.
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.

Lurker0 said:
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed - by "hide" I simply meant not reporting it. I'd be fine with MS showing 64MB total with 14MB used - I just got thrown by showing 50MB "Total". I grok their rationale for that reporting choice, I just don't agree
As I alluded above, I have a specific target app which performed well on a PPC2003 system with 128MB of RAM and which is performing much slower on a WM5 system with 64MB RAM. Reducing the app's dataset (maps in this case) brings performance back in line, so I believe I have a memory issue. I'm running an older version of the app due to a bug which is still outstanding against the WM5-certified versions, so I'm likely not getting any help the app COULD be giving the OS. Bummer for me
On the plus side, I've learned a bunch about WM5 memory usage which I didn't know yesterday....
Thanks!
Richard

193.68MB Storage Size and 336.37MB program memory ?

Hi all, I am new to winmo.
I just have my leo 1 month ago.
and below is my hardware information.
ROM version 1.66.707.1 (76641) WWE
Radio version 2.06.51.07
storage memory 193.68MB (does it consider as ROM?)
Program Memory 336.37MB (does it consider as RAM?)
I was wondering why my storage and program memory is different from the official spec, which has 512MB ROM and 448MB RAM?
i have installed most of the program in memory card but i still found that 193.68MB storage memory is not enough for me... most of time i only left 40MB storage memory... anything i can do to increase it?
I have read from somewhere said window system has taken out some space from the 512MB and that is why only left 193.68MB. But does it really need 318.32MB for the windows system? if really all goes for the window system, why the folder "\windows" still count into the poor remaining 193.68MB?
Thanks in advance....

Those amounts you have seen on your device are what is left after WinMo has taken its cut. This is the same as a PC, if you buy a 200Gb hard drive, after formatting and Windows/Linux install, you're talking at least 50-60Gb less than the advertised 200Gb.
Same with RAM, WinMo still needs memory for itself, same as a PC.
So, with 512Mb ROM -
WinMo + formatting has used 300ish Mb.
What are you storing on your Main storage?

rp-x1 said:
Those amounts you have seen on your device are what is left after WinMo has taken its cut. This is the same as a PC, if you buy a 200Gb hard drive, after formatting and Windows/Linux install, you're talking at least 50-60Gb less than the advertised 200Gb.
Same with RAM, WinMo still needs memory for itself, same as a PC.
So, with 512Mb ROM -
WinMo + formatting has used 300ish Mb.
What are you storing on your Main storage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
50-60Gb Windows install? I know its bloated but you'd be hard pressed to get even half way to 50Gb...

Starfury said:
50-60Gb Windows install? I know its bloated but you'd be hard pressed to get even half way to 50Gb...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well 128Gb binary is 137Gb in terms of manufacturers' marketing, so you lose around 15Gb (on a 200Gb HDD) before you start.
Installing Win7 has taken up 20Gb on my machine with office (800ish Mb) so in total, I'd have used up 35Gb
It was just an off the cuff example to say that the total capacity is already taken up with an OS and formatting before you even start.

I found that there are a lot of space taken by HTC album and google maps as caches... any way to limit the caches or move the caches to memory card?

rp-x1 said:
well 128Gb binary is 137Gb in terms of manufacturers' marketing, so you lose around 15Gb (on a 200Gb HDD) before you start.
Installing Win7 has taken up 20Gb on my machine with office (800ish Mb) so in total, I'd have used up 35Gb
It was just an off the cuff example to say that the total capacity is already taken up with an OS and formatting before you even start.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All the operating system is in ROM before you start the phone and when in use the RAM reduces depending on the calls from ROM, apps running and functions opened and in use.
For info I have
512Mb of flash ROM
576Mb of operating RAM
272.49 Mb of non volatile storage.