I have a question which puzzles me - perhaps the knowledgeable amongst us can answer it for me.
I have 2 devices, an Orange SPV M2000 (Blue Angel) and an O2 MDA Mini S (Wizard).
When I look at the device info I see this
........................................BA......................Wizard
RAM Size.........................128MB....................64MB
Flash Size..........................32MB....................128MB
Storage Size..................43.26MB.................47.46MB
When I look at the Memory Screen, the BA has 125.77MB main memory showing 62.88MB allocated to Storage and 62.89MB allocated to Program and a slider to alter the split of memory.
When I look at the Memory on the Wizard there is no slider and it shows 44.76MB allocated to Storage and 44.01MB allocated to Program.
Whichever way I look at it I cannot seem to make sense of the figures.
Can someone explain (in simple terms) what these figures mean and why there is such a dramatic difference between the RAM and Flash sizes on these two devices?
First the major difference between Blue Angel and Wizard. Blue Angel stores everything - your programs, data, etc. in RAM. It uses this same RAM for program memory. That's why you get a slider. It's also why, if your battery runs out or your reset it, you lost all your stuff. The Wizard, on the other hand, has memory dedicated for data/settings storage that's like flash memory (so you won't lose your stuff), and different memory for the RAM.
depending on the ROM/ExtRom/Radio Stack, etc. installed there's...
128MB total ROM
of which
44MB is available for storage of applications/user files
the rest is the operating system, extrom, etc.
and
64MB total RAM
of which
49MB is available for running programs/memory
the rest of which is the PIM running in the background, the phone running in the background, the radio stack running in the background, etc. All stuff that either the OEM or Microsoft decided you wouldn't want not running.
Thanks 'Z'.
Now it all makes more sense.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat buried thread, but I was doing my research before posting by using the search function -- not bad for a newbie, eh? -- and ran across this thread which directly addresses some questions I've been dealing with, but I'd like to throw some stuff out to see if I understand completely.
As I understand it, the Wizard has 64MB of SDRAM, and 128MB of Flash storage memory, correct? On the developer.cingular.com it says 64MB Flash ROM and 128MB SDRAM which appears to be backwards.
On the device Memory manager after a hard reset and installing the Qtek 9100 customization .cab Storage shows Free 43.75 of 47.46MB and Program shows Free 27.18 of 44.01MB.
As I understand it, "Storage" is refering to the Flash non-volatile memory, and "Program" is referring to RAM, correct?
So this means that of the 128MB of flash memory, ~80MB is hidden, including the customization .cab. Of the 64MB of flash memory, more than half is taken up by OS, radio and other things.
Do I have that right?
Now, one more thing. If I drag a 5MB file onto the device, the storage in use increases 5MB but Program isn't affected. This makes perfect sense.
Syncing, however is a different story. A small test sync of email, contacts, and calendar uses 2.68 Storage memory but 3.7MB of Program memory.
I take it from this that when you sync, it writes the pim info to the flash memory but then also automatically expands it into system memory. Do I understand that correctly?
If I am correct, is there any registry hack or anything that can change this behavior? Would it really slow things down so much if your PIM info had to be taken out of Storage memory? Or am I missing something?
Thanks for any responses.
Gene
I hope no one minds that I bump this, it's been several days.
I'm fairly sure my basic understanding of the situation is correct: contacts etc are loaded into persistent memory (ROM) then loaded into system RAM as well -- I speculate to speed searches and such because RAM is so much faster than Flash memory.
However this has a drawback in that whereas a 64MB RAM-only ppc 2003 device was able to handle >5,000 contacts with ease, on the Wizard it takes almost all of the RAM.
I know it's possible to reduce the amount of RAM (and ROM for that matter) being used by other applications but I'm wondering if anyone has explored or figured out a way to keep the PIM info in ROM (registry hack, perhaps) until it's actually needed, and what the repercussions if any were, ie did it make using the pim info unbearably slow?
I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.
I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.
I'm sure they'll be increasing that in upcoming models. Only reason not to, typically, is to keep cost down a bit - and let the user add as much storage memory as they want; this is under the assumption that anything put on the storage card will work just fine, which is not the case with many applications :|
Related
Forgive me for not really being able to search deeply into this matter, I've seen threads detailing updating with the JasJar ROM or an amalgamation of the the MDA/O2 ROM.
1) I have 43.72mb total storage and 47.93mb Program storage. This results in 91.65mb total storage??? Right, at 128megs where has 40mbs gone? I have pretty much the exact same set up on the MDA3 yet the two figures more or less add up to 128mb. Can someone confirm these figures with me?
2) Is there a new ROM coming out and soon? I'm not one to complain if results are going to happen, but the memory issue is a biggy to me as there is one more program I want to install on the thing and I doubt there will be enough free memory.
3) Software, I'm sure there was a better suite of software on the MDA3 when that came out. Okay time consuming it may be but sometimes I do like to run Messenger when I'm on the train - where has it gone? And if Microsoft think I'm going to pay £10.99 more for that feature they can go swivel. I followed a thread that said it's included in Windows - it's not on the MDA Pro.
I really love the design of the thing but the software just seems to be a joke. Where do I start? I have posted the MDA3 for sale on Ebay and I want to honour that sale, but I also want a device that replaces my MDA3 100%.
This includes getting TomTom 5 to work with my BT GPS receiver!!!
1. Sorry not sure about the memory
2. I havent heard of a new T-mobile ROM being available and they never seemed to work on any updates for the MDAiii
3. The software suite was better - I miss my messenger too and like you I am reluctant to pay microsoft a tenner! The backup software isnt avialbel either which is an arse.
4. Good luck with TT5 I had to upgrade my co-pilot to get it to work on new os.
If at all possible could anyone with the MDAPro and the carrier ROM please do a memory check on theirs to compare with mine?
If you're not sure how to do it - Start/Settings/System/Memory, I just need the total figures for Storage and Program
I have the same memory CONFIG as you have stated!
In WM5 you have separate ROM & RAM configuration unlike WM2k3...
So here's how ur memory is split up -
1. RAM 64MB
Out of 64 megs of RAM, you loose roughly 17MB on internal allocation. For the device to run perfectly it has various fixed RAM permanently allocated (DMA buffers (for ur cameras etc.), kernel level memory allocation, GSM memory, video memory, mem swap space, cache etc.). This total memory fixed can vary from device to device, and each company can tweak it accordingly. Eventually, the OS has roughly 47MB for use. Now again, when WM5 powers up, it again consumes around 17megs of RAM, giving you 30-32 megs of ram to use for your programs or apps!
2. ROM 128MB (permanent storage)
This is divided into the following -
a. OS install: This is where WM5 related files etc. gets stored. This is a total of 64Megs
b. Extended ROM: This is used by maufacturers to store their customizations etc. Another 20megs allocated for this
c. User storage: This is the space available for you to install programs, and for windows to bloat Thats 43megs that you find!
Hope this clears out
Cheers,
San
Thanks for you response having had an XDA for some time and then the MDA I was just quite suprised to see a Memory low warning message so quickly as I never saw one on the MDA3. I wanted to confirm that I wasn't having memory issues.
have a Qtek 9100 with 48MB internal memory and a 2GB add on card.
which programs & files should i install where?
if i install everything to the add on card, will my programs use the internal storage for program memory?
does it matter?
what is the relation between internal storage and program memory?
thanks for the great forums. i hope to contribute.
Qtek 9100 FR
flashed with WWE ROM 1.6.7.1
2GB Mini-SD from Moby Memory
Voice Command (UK female voice, love it!)
Hi there casemon...
To take your topics one at a time:
Some programs do not like being installed to the add-on card. The majority of the time when I tried to do that it caused more headaches than it was worth. In the reality of things, the concept of additional card storage was for keeping large accessory files such as music or maps so that you didn't have a large volume of data clogging your handheld. This is program-specific, so it is hard to say which ones will let you do that and which ones won't. I even had difficulty storing maps for MS Streets and trips on the SD card, as the program itself (which I installed on the handheld) kept losing the location of the maps.
Your handheld should be keeping tabs of available memory and readjusting storage and program memory as it goes along, however I find them to be a little too conservative with the program memory and usually end up tweaking it myself, which you can do just by moving the slider over a bit.
The relationship between internal storage and program memory is that you have only the alotted memory on board both for storing your programs and running them. The handheld keeps tabs on its memory availability and keeps a portion of it aside just for running programs. However, as I said above, they tend to be a bit too conservative, as I have had programs stall out midway. A quick tune up to the memory slider solves the problem every time.
Hope I was able to answer your questions. Take care.
Bacharette: your post is true for WM2003SE, WM5 works differently. Storage is there for storing apps and data, RAM only for running them and not for storing. In WM5, you can cram all of storage full of apps without effecting your device's RAM. I install most programs in ROM, only apps I seldom use I put on SD. Be aware that today plug-ins do not like to be installed on SD, better put them in your storage ROM. All other apps can go on SD or in ROM, but it makes no difference in your RAM.
The relationship on WM5 between storage and program memory is as follows: all files are stored in ROM, than loaded in RAM and run there till you close them. As long as you do not run too many apps at the same time, your RAM will not fill up very fast. Best advice is to use a taskmanager to really close apps as soon as you are done with them, thereby freeing up RAM.
Because ROM is storage place for apps and data, you will not lose them in case of empty battery.
thanks Bacharette & Koksie, that clears it up for me.
on a related note, another post in this forum is heating up about hacking your ROM to be smaller! check it out here;
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=34171&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
haven't tried it yet, but it's interesting. what a great site!
Qtek 9100 FR -flashed with WWE ROM 1.6.7.1
2GB Mini-SD from Moby Memory
Voice Command (UK female voice, love it!)
I have the tmobile MDA USA version. I am supposed to have 128 MB ROM. My device shows only 47.46 MB total storage 34.15 in use, and 13.32 free. I have SPB pocket plus, Avantgo, Agenda Fusion, and SK tools in main memory. Not many things want to go on the storage card. I am new to WM5, but I have had 3 Ipaqs so I am not a total rookie. Where is my storage, and whats hogging it up?
bandersnatch said:
I have the tmobile MDA USA version. I am supposed to have 128 MB ROM. My device shows only 47.46 MB total storage 34.15 in use, and 13.32 free. I have SPB pocket plus, Avantgo, Agenda Fusion, and SK tools in main memory. Not many things want to go on the storage card. I am new to WM5, but I have had 3 Ipaqs so I am not a total rookie. Where is my storage, and whats hogging it up?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the marketing blurb never said you'd have 128MB free memory. you have to account for the OS and registry plus all installed apps.
Yep... basically, depending on the ROM/ExtRom/Radio Stack, etc. installed there's...
128MB total ROM
of which
44MB is available for storage of applications/user files
the rest is the operating system, extrom, etc.
and
64MB total RAM
of which
49MB is available for running programs/ memory
the rest of which is the PIM running in the background, the phone running in the background, the radio stack running in the background, etc. All stuff that either the OEM or Microsoft decided you wouldn't want not running
The real issue is that there are program that dislike running from the Storage Card. Write to the developers
( Of course, as the persistent storage is a form of flash memory, I don't see why we're not seeing phones with 512MB or 1GB built-in yet... )
That is kinda what I thought. It came with all the voice dial (which I am liking), and clearvue pdf (which I am not sure I need) bells and whistles. I guess I need to see what I can remove and what I can't. SD support seems to be lacking. I hear you when you say give the developers hell over it, but a lot of it is an OS issue I think.
I don't know if that's true... accessing files, which is pretty much all you need doing, on the MiniSD card is just fine. The only problem that I'm familiar with is that the driver starts after other bits, so any applications that run on startup may have issues. That much might be the OS's fault, but it might be the OEM's fault for putting the driver initialization where it is...
Leave the technical stuff to you guys
If you look at my profile, you will know that as soon as we start getting more than 6 inches deep into the thing, I am gonna start to get in trouble. My OS comment was intuitive and a gut feeling. I have no idea if it is accurate. I kinda understand about the memory, but I am imagining it as physical substance using physical space, etc.
It took me a while to realize I'm confused, but it seems I'm confused about Hermes/WM5 memory allocation.
I've been using PocketPC's since PPC2000, there (and in PPC2002, PPC2003) the o/s resides in flash, and RAM is partitioned between storage and program memory. Thus, loading lots of applications to the device reduces the amount of program memory available for actually running programs. Those o/s had a slider to influence the balance of memory allocated.
Since I got my 8525 I've been assuming that it worked the same way, despite the loss of the memory slider. There have always been indications that I was wrong though - I never saw the memory balance shift, and nothing I've done seems to increase the program memory. Even removing several applications from Storage and installing them in Extended ROM didn't help. I'd LIKE to free up more program memory so apps like Mapopolis can use a LOT of it....
My Start->Settings->System->Memory page shows 56.22MB (Total) for Storage and 49.08MB (Total) for Program. When reading about the Samsung "stacked" (aka MCM) processor I realized that none of the variants listed had more than 64MB SDRAM, and 56.22+49.08 > 64!!!
It seems like either "Storage" now equals flash memory (vs volatile RAM in PPC2003 et al.) and/or there's more the 64MB of SDRAM in the Hermes or something. If all 64MB were available I'd expect more Program memory than 49MB....
I'm confused - Can someone explain or point me to an explanation of how the Hermes/WM5 allocates that SDRAM?
TIA,
Richard
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM. See here:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_HardwareOverview
pof said:
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
rsolomon said:
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These sometimes confuses people...
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total and then there is the rest running programs that take space, and about 30MB is free after clean boot on my device.
That's the way it has been programmed, mobile device programming is alot frustrating than on desktop PCs, so the memory handling is very important.
And don't mix those two when you said "56.22+49.08 > 64!!!", they are two separate memoryes. (56.xx being the 128 part and 49.xx being the 64 part).
Don't ask why microsoft excluded the memory allocation slider, maybe the older devices and OSs were differently programmed (memory handling).
gvoima said:
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That much is logical - not all 128MB of the flash is allocated to the file system mounted as "Storage" - clearly some is for Bootloader, Radio, etc.
Are you really saying the OS and user-writable storage share a filesystem? That seems counter-intuitive to me, though presumably there are user-inaccessible flags to prevent over-writing system files. In PPC2003 there was a ROM file system and a RAM filesystem overlaid so they appeared together. You seem to be saying that in WM5 the user filesystem lives in a portion of the flash - unlike a portion of RAM as it did in PPC2000-2003.
gvoima said:
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you're saying WM5 hides ~16MB worth of RAM usage? Did PPC2003 execute O/S files in place then? I mean I can see that the o/s and running programs would take up space, but it's unclear to me why WM5 would report total memory lower than 64MB in that case.
TIA,
Richard
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Got it
pof said:
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, that's got it - the MSDN blog links (that Lurker0 linked http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1027392) at least squared me away. Lemme see if I can summarize my own questions:
0) Prior to WM5 most of the OS *was* eXecute In Place (XIP) - certainly on the devices I owned. Now most devices do not support XIP for most of the O/S so more RAM is used in general to compensate.
1) Prior to WM5, PocketPC "Storage" *was* in RAM (for user data), with WM5 it's ALL in flash. Thus there's no sense installing to ExtendedROM vs Storage, because you still can't free up any RAM
2) WM5 *does* hide ~15MB of RAM usage - because they want to. So "Program" really is RAM and it's just stupid that reported Total doesn't match physical Total.
I was tainted by my previous PPC exposure I guess. Half the RAM means that Mapopolis for instance will then always be slower on my WM5 device than on my PPC2003 device - half the SDRAM clock speed doesn't help here either (iPAQ 5555 vs Hermes)
Thanks all!
Richard
1. There are still reasons to use Extended ROM instead of the Storage. The Storage is required for many tasks by the OS, it is wise to keep at least some megs of it free. But, as you can read around, not everything is recomennded for installing on a flash card. Here the External ROM can be in help, adding the storage that is always accessible by OS, and is not used by other means.
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Lurker0 said:
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed - by "hide" I simply meant not reporting it. I'd be fine with MS showing 64MB total with 14MB used - I just got thrown by showing 50MB "Total". I grok their rationale for that reporting choice, I just don't agree
As I alluded above, I have a specific target app which performed well on a PPC2003 system with 128MB of RAM and which is performing much slower on a WM5 system with 64MB RAM. Reducing the app's dataset (maps in this case) brings performance back in line, so I believe I have a memory issue. I'm running an older version of the app due to a bug which is still outstanding against the WM5-certified versions, so I'm likely not getting any help the app COULD be giving the OS. Bummer for me
On the plus side, I've learned a bunch about WM5 memory usage which I didn't know yesterday....
Thanks!
Richard
Hi everyone,
am quite new to these boards, and have only just got myself a secondhand xda IIs. In the last half a yer I have owned a HTC hermes, universal & kaiser but have finally settled on the BA because the design just suits me more. So far so good- am very happy!
I am a complete noob though and having just upgraded to WM6 from WM2003SE (following the WIKI guide & wizard) I am a bit puzzled about my phomnes' memory capacity and what goes where....
Reading over the forum I have heard how the reformating of exended rom (?) etc can increase your available storage to 128mb as part of the upgrade process. This I did with the unlocker and formatting tool. But upon upgradeing it seems I have only 64mb available for storage , but 100mb for 'programs'.... I am a bit confused. To make it worse when I load programs on the phone it actually reduces the storage capacity available rather than the 'program' memory- of which I have 75mb free that I can't seem to get at!! Can anyone please tell me what I am doing wrong or else point me in the direction of where I can educate myself about this? ....I know it is a very basic question, but am a complete novice to pdas since the last 6 months so please don't flame me!!
Thanks
Think of this in desktop computer terms.
Storage == hard drive
Program memory == RAM
explanation:
programs are installed to either storage or storage card. programs run using program memory.
hey tnx, i was looking for such info too tnx m8 for the help
Thanks! Crystal clear now!
one (or so) more quetion...
Hi- quick folow up question if anyone has the time to answer...
So I understand I have 64mb storage- but in WM2003 you could allocate how much to put to RAM & how much to put to storgae right? So therefore if I had lots of apps I wanted to load onto the phone and I needed more storage I could just reallocate. Was there not a way in the whole upgrade process to allocate less than 128mb to RAM so that I have more storage? I think I missed something here. If it is safe to have less than 128mb RAM i think I may go back and do the repartitioning thing again. Some advice would be much appreciated.
If so my question is why is it recommended to have 128mb RAM- would reducing it to less than that cause the phone to run too slow under WM6?? Is there a 'safe' guideline for minimum amount of RAM to allocate? Further clarification would be greatly appreciated! (As I see it I have lost some 'storgare' capacity this way, beecause programs excluded from the WM6 rom, eg powerpoint etc , be reloaded and so eat away at my new storage of 64mb)
I think you may have missed the point: storage is flash memory, program memory is RAM. The difference is that pre-WM5 flash memory held your vanilla system, Extended ROM, and the default (for hard reset). Everything else that you customised or installed went into RAM, which was therefore split between storage of programs and data and program memory. Remember how when your battery went flat your device lost everything? That's why, and why a backup battery was needed. WM5 and later devices do not need or have backup batteries.
Since WM5 all programs and user data are stored in flash: this can make performance slower but ensures that you survive a power failure unscathed. There are ways to get round the performance issues, compressing files with UPX saves space AND time because reading a smaller file from flash is obviously quicker, and expanding it in RAM goes very fast indeed. However I would not want to overstate the performance hit that you experience working from flash.
So this is why you have lost the ability to manage the memory split - it's nothing to worry about and indeed I am very pleased because my BA now has more program memory than my Hermes.
Hope this helps!
jbn
ssjw1000 said:
Hi- quick folow up question if anyone has the time to answer...
So I understand I have 64mb storage- but in WM2003 you could allocate how much to put to RAM & how much to put to storgae right? So therefore if I had lots of apps I wanted to load onto the phone and I needed more storage I could just reallocate. Was there not a way in the whole upgrade process to allocate less than 128mb to RAM so that I have more storage? I think I missed something here. If it is safe to have less than 128mb RAM i think I may go back and do the repartitioning thing again. Some advice would be much appreciated.
If so my question is why is it recommended to have 128mb RAM- would reducing it to less than that cause the phone to run too slow under WM6?? Is there a 'safe' guideline for minimum amount of RAM to allocate? Further clarification would be greatly appreciated! (As I see it I have lost some 'storgare' capacity this way, beecause programs excluded from the WM6 rom, eg powerpoint etc , be reloaded and so eat away at my new storage of 64mb)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In addition to jbn's answer above you can also use a ROM that has a RAMDISK. This takes a portion of the RAM and creates a folder that you can use as a filesystem. Many people prefer these, I do not. I use my SD card and my onboard storage and have no problems with space. If you decide to go with a RAMDISK enabled ROM beware that you will loose anything you install to that section of the filesystem if your batter and backup batter go dead. Exactly the same behavior you had with WM2003 in your BA originally.