Database Users

The Design Concept of WM2K5 V1.60 Is Not Good

I am not sure whether mine is right or not. but the version 1.5 sitll be same with before to O2:
128M for system STORAGE and PROGRAMS... another 15M for STORAGE. after release EXTROM, then extra 16M is up.
That is very excellent partition for me: I install everything in the MAIN, then just use different SD card for data, it works very good.
But after I upgrade to Version1.6. I suddently find:
the total 128M all for PROGRAMS. and the 15M STORAGE moves to be system STORAGE,
Then I have very limited functions: I can not install any software in the MAIN since after I installed CHN OS and INPUT, only 5MB left in the main storage...
:-(
not good!!!!! stupid concept!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so what? use version 1.50h or 1.50i and be happy

YES, I AM DOWNING TO VER1.50 NOW

design is PERFECT, but unfortunately not ideal for xda2 device.
new devices are having 128MB of flash chips and 64MB of RAM chips.
the whole wm2005 on himalaya is just pure experiment...
go for 1.50i if you need more storage space.
for me it is good, coz all my progs are running off of SD card and extROM. I like, that I don't have to care about the battery...
buzz
ps. please post to the right threads...

I think that 1.60a is perfect. It uses the available Himalaya hardware to the max.
I patched the 1.60a down from 128MB ram to 96MB and installed the 32MB ramdisk. With this I have enough storage space while still having the 16MB storage and 16MB Extrom persistent.
Cheers
Pat

i think it is great
i started with 1.60a but as i do have too use wifi and lots of progs put the 96 there
as time passes i do receive a lot of emails and sms messages that wasnt enouth also so put the 64/64
i runing it with that and tell you its very good
as i agree with buzz this tecnology is for new devices and on the xda2 it still works very well
so a version with 32 mb one partition and 128 of ram if possible would be great
i would test such a config when buzz manage to make it possible

1.6a 64
hi buzz and thanks for everything
what i did install is 1.6a 128 in may imate2 (xda2) its good but having troubles with empty storage (whenever i install a program in my SD storage "0.19mb now" some of them take bite from storage and keep program untuched "still 100mb")
so can you help to change that from 1.6a to 1.6a 64mb and i will be so thankfull.
thanks

At first I find it stupid...But the purpose of this is to let the memory stay when the battery gone. You could always use the Extended Rom to become your storage or you can flash back to 150i 32mb/64mb/96mb..

Hi,
I'm using 1.60a and everything is ok!
Usually I choose if program is more or less important and install in Main or in Extended Rom.
So far no major problems.
Only Pocket Informant can't install (even they said is a WM5 compatible version).
Bye.

tony-xd_wang said:
YES, I AM DOWNING TO VER1.50 NOW
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me too
now downgrade to 1.50i96 faster

1.60a prog memory leak?
First of all thanks to Buzz for a splendid job on the wm5. Having 120mb for running progs has its advantages. But I'd like to post an observation. When normally running after a soft reset, my prog mem is set at 106mb. Then when running the normal progs of the day w/c uses up prog mem, closing the progs would restore it back to my initial 106mb. I've noticed that even w/out running progs, the prog mem gradually drops down. After a few hours it will be at 98-99mb w/out any running progs. I don't know if anybody has noticed this behaviour on their xda2. Perhaps some entlightenment Buzz?
Fyi. i'm running dktoday and spb pocket plus3. The mem monitor from spb tallies w/ those in /settings/memory.

MDAPro Just a few questions?

Forgive me for not really being able to search deeply into this matter, I've seen threads detailing updating with the JasJar ROM or an amalgamation of the the MDA/O2 ROM.
1) I have 43.72mb total storage and 47.93mb Program storage. This results in 91.65mb total storage??? Right, at 128megs where has 40mbs gone? I have pretty much the exact same set up on the MDA3 yet the two figures more or less add up to 128mb. Can someone confirm these figures with me?
2) Is there a new ROM coming out and soon? I'm not one to complain if results are going to happen, but the memory issue is a biggy to me as there is one more program I want to install on the thing and I doubt there will be enough free memory.
3) Software, I'm sure there was a better suite of software on the MDA3 when that came out. Okay time consuming it may be but sometimes I do like to run Messenger when I'm on the train - where has it gone? And if Microsoft think I'm going to pay £10.99 more for that feature they can go swivel. I followed a thread that said it's included in Windows - it's not on the MDA Pro.
I really love the design of the thing but the software just seems to be a joke. Where do I start? I have posted the MDA3 for sale on Ebay and I want to honour that sale, but I also want a device that replaces my MDA3 100%.
This includes getting TomTom 5 to work with my BT GPS receiver!!!

1. Sorry not sure about the memory
2. I havent heard of a new T-mobile ROM being available and they never seemed to work on any updates for the MDAiii
3. The software suite was better - I miss my messenger too and like you I am reluctant to pay microsoft a tenner! The backup software isnt avialbel either which is an arse.
4. Good luck with TT5 I had to upgrade my co-pilot to get it to work on new os.

If at all possible could anyone with the MDAPro and the carrier ROM please do a memory check on theirs to compare with mine?
If you're not sure how to do it - Start/Settings/System/Memory, I just need the total figures for Storage and Program

I have the same memory CONFIG as you have stated!

In WM5 you have separate ROM & RAM configuration unlike WM2k3...
So here's how ur memory is split up -
1. RAM 64MB
Out of 64 megs of RAM, you loose roughly 17MB on internal allocation. For the device to run perfectly it has various fixed RAM permanently allocated (DMA buffers (for ur cameras etc.), kernel level memory allocation, GSM memory, video memory, mem swap space, cache etc.). This total memory fixed can vary from device to device, and each company can tweak it accordingly. Eventually, the OS has roughly 47MB for use. Now again, when WM5 powers up, it again consumes around 17megs of RAM, giving you 30-32 megs of ram to use for your programs or apps!
2. ROM 128MB (permanent storage)
This is divided into the following -
a. OS install: This is where WM5 related files etc. gets stored. This is a total of 64Megs
b. Extended ROM: This is used by maufacturers to store their customizations etc. Another 20megs allocated for this
c. User storage: This is the space available for you to install programs, and for windows to bloat Thats 43megs that you find!
Hope this clears out
Cheers,
San

Thanks for you response having had an XDA for some time and then the MDA I was just quite suprised to see a Memory low warning message so quickly as I never saw one on the MDA3. I wanted to confirm that I wasn't having memory issues.

Install what, where?

have a Qtek 9100 with 48MB internal memory and a 2GB add on card.
which programs & files should i install where?
if i install everything to the add on card, will my programs use the internal storage for program memory?
does it matter?
what is the relation between internal storage and program memory?
thanks for the great forums. i hope to contribute.
Qtek 9100 FR
flashed with WWE ROM 1.6.7.1
2GB Mini-SD from Moby Memory
Voice Command (UK female voice, love it!)

Hi there casemon...
To take your topics one at a time:
Some programs do not like being installed to the add-on card. The majority of the time when I tried to do that it caused more headaches than it was worth. In the reality of things, the concept of additional card storage was for keeping large accessory files such as music or maps so that you didn't have a large volume of data clogging your handheld. This is program-specific, so it is hard to say which ones will let you do that and which ones won't. I even had difficulty storing maps for MS Streets and trips on the SD card, as the program itself (which I installed on the handheld) kept losing the location of the maps.
Your handheld should be keeping tabs of available memory and readjusting storage and program memory as it goes along, however I find them to be a little too conservative with the program memory and usually end up tweaking it myself, which you can do just by moving the slider over a bit.
The relationship between internal storage and program memory is that you have only the alotted memory on board both for storing your programs and running them. The handheld keeps tabs on its memory availability and keeps a portion of it aside just for running programs. However, as I said above, they tend to be a bit too conservative, as I have had programs stall out midway. A quick tune up to the memory slider solves the problem every time.
Hope I was able to answer your questions. Take care.

Bacharette: your post is true for WM2003SE, WM5 works differently. Storage is there for storing apps and data, RAM only for running them and not for storing. In WM5, you can cram all of storage full of apps without effecting your device's RAM. I install most programs in ROM, only apps I seldom use I put on SD. Be aware that today plug-ins do not like to be installed on SD, better put them in your storage ROM. All other apps can go on SD or in ROM, but it makes no difference in your RAM.
The relationship on WM5 between storage and program memory is as follows: all files are stored in ROM, than loaded in RAM and run there till you close them. As long as you do not run too many apps at the same time, your RAM will not fill up very fast. Best advice is to use a taskmanager to really close apps as soon as you are done with them, thereby freeing up RAM.
Because ROM is storage place for apps and data, you will not lose them in case of empty battery.

thanks Bacharette & Koksie, that clears it up for me.
on a related note, another post in this forum is heating up about hacking your ROM to be smaller! check it out here;
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=34171&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
haven't tried it yet, but it's interesting. what a great site!
Qtek 9100 FR -flashed with WWE ROM 1.6.7.1
2GB Mini-SD from Moby Memory
Voice Command (UK female voice, love it!)

Memory Allocation

I have a question which puzzles me - perhaps the knowledgeable amongst us can answer it for me.
I have 2 devices, an Orange SPV M2000 (Blue Angel) and an O2 MDA Mini S (Wizard).
When I look at the device info I see this
........................................BA......................Wizard
RAM Size.........................128MB....................64MB
Flash Size..........................32MB....................128MB
Storage Size..................43.26MB.................47.46MB
When I look at the Memory Screen, the BA has 125.77MB main memory showing 62.88MB allocated to Storage and 62.89MB allocated to Program and a slider to alter the split of memory.
When I look at the Memory on the Wizard there is no slider and it shows 44.76MB allocated to Storage and 44.01MB allocated to Program.
Whichever way I look at it I cannot seem to make sense of the figures.
Can someone explain (in simple terms) what these figures mean and why there is such a dramatic difference between the RAM and Flash sizes on these two devices?

First the major difference between Blue Angel and Wizard. Blue Angel stores everything - your programs, data, etc. in RAM. It uses this same RAM for program memory. That's why you get a slider. It's also why, if your battery runs out or your reset it, you lost all your stuff. The Wizard, on the other hand, has memory dedicated for data/settings storage that's like flash memory (so you won't lose your stuff), and different memory for the RAM.
depending on the ROM/ExtRom/Radio Stack, etc. installed there's...
128MB total ROM
of which
44MB is available for storage of applications/user files
the rest is the operating system, extrom, etc.
and
64MB total RAM
of which
49MB is available for running programs/memory
the rest of which is the PIM running in the background, the phone running in the background, the radio stack running in the background, etc. All stuff that either the OEM or Microsoft decided you wouldn't want not running.

Thanks 'Z'.
Now it all makes more sense.

Sorry to resurrect a somewhat buried thread, but I was doing my research before posting by using the search function -- not bad for a newbie, eh? -- and ran across this thread which directly addresses some questions I've been dealing with, but I'd like to throw some stuff out to see if I understand completely.
As I understand it, the Wizard has 64MB of SDRAM, and 128MB of Flash storage memory, correct? On the developer.cingular.com it says 64MB Flash ROM and 128MB SDRAM which appears to be backwards.
On the device Memory manager after a hard reset and installing the Qtek 9100 customization .cab Storage shows Free 43.75 of 47.46MB and Program shows Free 27.18 of 44.01MB.
As I understand it, "Storage" is refering to the Flash non-volatile memory, and "Program" is referring to RAM, correct?
So this means that of the 128MB of flash memory, ~80MB is hidden, including the customization .cab. Of the 64MB of flash memory, more than half is taken up by OS, radio and other things.
Do I have that right?
Now, one more thing. If I drag a 5MB file onto the device, the storage in use increases 5MB but Program isn't affected. This makes perfect sense.
Syncing, however is a different story. A small test sync of email, contacts, and calendar uses 2.68 Storage memory but 3.7MB of Program memory.
I take it from this that when you sync, it writes the pim info to the flash memory but then also automatically expands it into system memory. Do I understand that correctly?
If I am correct, is there any registry hack or anything that can change this behavior? Would it really slow things down so much if your PIM info had to be taken out of Storage memory? Or am I missing something?
Thanks for any responses.
Gene

I hope no one minds that I bump this, it's been several days.
I'm fairly sure my basic understanding of the situation is correct: contacts etc are loaded into persistent memory (ROM) then loaded into system RAM as well -- I speculate to speed searches and such because RAM is so much faster than Flash memory.
However this has a drawback in that whereas a 64MB RAM-only ppc 2003 device was able to handle >5,000 contacts with ease, on the Wizard it takes almost all of the RAM.
I know it's possible to reduce the amount of RAM (and ROM for that matter) being used by other applications but I'm wondering if anyone has explored or figured out a way to keep the PIM info in ROM (registry hack, perhaps) until it's actually needed, and what the repercussions if any were, ie did it make using the pim info unbearably slow?

I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.

I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.

I'm sure they'll be increasing that in upcoming models. Only reason not to, typically, is to keep cost down a bit - and let the user add as much storage memory as they want; this is under the assumption that anything put on the storage card will work just fine, which is not the case with many applications :|

Simple questions on memory allocation

It took me a while to realize I'm confused, but it seems I'm confused about Hermes/WM5 memory allocation.
I've been using PocketPC's since PPC2000, there (and in PPC2002, PPC2003) the o/s resides in flash, and RAM is partitioned between storage and program memory. Thus, loading lots of applications to the device reduces the amount of program memory available for actually running programs. Those o/s had a slider to influence the balance of memory allocated.
Since I got my 8525 I've been assuming that it worked the same way, despite the loss of the memory slider. There have always been indications that I was wrong though - I never saw the memory balance shift, and nothing I've done seems to increase the program memory. Even removing several applications from Storage and installing them in Extended ROM didn't help. I'd LIKE to free up more program memory so apps like Mapopolis can use a LOT of it....
My Start->Settings->System->Memory page shows 56.22MB (Total) for Storage and 49.08MB (Total) for Program. When reading about the Samsung "stacked" (aka MCM) processor I realized that none of the variants listed had more than 64MB SDRAM, and 56.22+49.08 > 64!!!
It seems like either "Storage" now equals flash memory (vs volatile RAM in PPC2003 et al.) and/or there's more the 64MB of SDRAM in the Hermes or something. If all 64MB were available I'd expect more Program memory than 49MB....
I'm confused - Can someone explain or point me to an explanation of how the Hermes/WM5 allocates that SDRAM?
TIA,
Richard

Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM. See here:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_HardwareOverview

pof said:
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard

rsolomon said:
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These sometimes confuses people...
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total and then there is the rest running programs that take space, and about 30MB is free after clean boot on my device.
That's the way it has been programmed, mobile device programming is alot frustrating than on desktop PCs, so the memory handling is very important.
And don't mix those two when you said "56.22+49.08 > 64!!!", they are two separate memoryes. (56.xx being the 128 part and 49.xx being the 64 part).
Don't ask why microsoft excluded the memory allocation slider, maybe the older devices and OSs were differently programmed (memory handling).

gvoima said:
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That much is logical - not all 128MB of the flash is allocated to the file system mounted as "Storage" - clearly some is for Bootloader, Radio, etc.
Are you really saying the OS and user-writable storage share a filesystem? That seems counter-intuitive to me, though presumably there are user-inaccessible flags to prevent over-writing system files. In PPC2003 there was a ROM file system and a RAM filesystem overlaid so they appeared together. You seem to be saying that in WM5 the user filesystem lives in a portion of the flash - unlike a portion of RAM as it did in PPC2000-2003.
gvoima said:
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you're saying WM5 hides ~16MB worth of RAM usage? Did PPC2003 execute O/S files in place then? I mean I can see that the o/s and running programs would take up space, but it's unclear to me why WM5 would report total memory lower than 64MB in that case.
TIA,
Richard

See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903

Got it
pof said:
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, that's got it - the MSDN blog links (that Lurker0 linked http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1027392) at least squared me away. Lemme see if I can summarize my own questions:
0) Prior to WM5 most of the OS *was* eXecute In Place (XIP) - certainly on the devices I owned. Now most devices do not support XIP for most of the O/S so more RAM is used in general to compensate.
1) Prior to WM5, PocketPC "Storage" *was* in RAM (for user data), with WM5 it's ALL in flash. Thus there's no sense installing to ExtendedROM vs Storage, because you still can't free up any RAM
2) WM5 *does* hide ~15MB of RAM usage - because they want to. So "Program" really is RAM and it's just stupid that reported Total doesn't match physical Total.
I was tainted by my previous PPC exposure I guess. Half the RAM means that Mapopolis for instance will then always be slower on my WM5 device than on my PPC2003 device - half the SDRAM clock speed doesn't help here either (iPAQ 5555 vs Hermes)
Thanks all!
Richard

1. There are still reasons to use Extended ROM instead of the Storage. The Storage is required for many tasks by the OS, it is wise to keep at least some megs of it free. But, as you can read around, not everything is recomennded for installing on a flash card. Here the External ROM can be in help, adding the storage that is always accessible by OS, and is not used by other means.
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.

Lurker0 said:
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed - by "hide" I simply meant not reporting it. I'd be fine with MS showing 64MB total with 14MB used - I just got thrown by showing 50MB "Total". I grok their rationale for that reporting choice, I just don't agree
As I alluded above, I have a specific target app which performed well on a PPC2003 system with 128MB of RAM and which is performing much slower on a WM5 system with 64MB RAM. Reducing the app's dataset (maps in this case) brings performance back in line, so I believe I have a memory issue. I'm running an older version of the app due to a bug which is still outstanding against the WM5-certified versions, so I'm likely not getting any help the app COULD be giving the OS. Bummer for me
On the plus side, I've learned a bunch about WM5 memory usage which I didn't know yesterday....
Thanks!
Richard