Database Users

people disapointed by the Exec ?

Hi all,
i read more and more people wanting to sell their brand new exec, BARELY USED... Are people disappointed by it and think it doesn't worth the money ???
I am really wondering what is wrong with it... and i don't have one yet, but i am thinking about getting one... now reading more and more bad reviews on it, dispointment and people selling it after less than a week of use... i am really hesitating to buy it, even though i ve waited it for many months !
What is your opinion about it and do you think it really worth 1000 € ??
Thanks,
Mike.

I would NEVER recommend it for a housewife, but if you are just a little bit tech savvy, AND have a weekend to spare setting it up according to guidance on these forums, it's great. If you do not, you could be extremely miserable with the speed and unacceptable bugs such as BT turning off.

I think a lot of it is people hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, £229 + £8 x 12 = £325 total outlay. People are selling them for upwards of £400 pretty much the same day with just about no risk and keeping a free 5mb/month sim card. Either that, or they just don't need a new handset and are taking advantage of the demand for Universals.

As a phone its no good for me just too fiddily, i use it as a data centre and pocket pc with a seperate phone, for this it is perfect

I think its a great little device. Don't get me wrong, if you expect it to have no bugs you will not be happy but as with all new technology, it will take time to iron them out.
In the meantime, I am happy to live with the minor glitches. It wont take long until the Exec is supported better (and also WM5) and this should be when this device comes into its own.
As for the functionality as a phone - I really am getting used to it

xiasma said:
I think a lot of it is people hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, £229 + £8 x 12 = £325 total outlay. People are selling them for upwards of £400 pretty much the same day with just about no risk and keeping a free 5mb/month sim card. Either that, or they just don't need a new handset and are taking advantage of the demand for Universals.
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This is spot-on. That's exactly what a few people are doing. Sure there are some people who have been disappointed with theirs, but honestly, what were they expecting? Most people who are complaining are either newcomers to the PDA/Phone world, or they're installing every damn WM2003 software they've ever bought and killing their machines with incompatible software. IMHO
I couldn't ever personally justify €1000 for any phone/PDA device, but for €500 it is an excellent machine. I love mine. Perhaps I'm biased. Just remember that it's an early release of WM5 and there are a few bugs. They'll be fixed in time though and they're not fundamental IMHO.

@xiasma, which tariff is £8 per month? Can you purchase this online?

I agree with what's been said so far. If someone came to this even from a Nokia smartphone I think they could be disappointed, as they are phones first and pda/gadgets/whatever second whereas the Universal is more like a high-end pda with a phone that happens to be built in. Even coming from a non-phone PDA (as I did) takes a little getting used to imho, since I used to have a far more cavalier attitude to installing stuff on my ipaq whereas now with the Universal I need to consider "will people still be able to ring me if I install this shareware demo?". Stability and reliability is very important for a phone, but for a small portable computer I tend to think that features and what-can-I-install-next are key. These are almost mutually exclusive characteristics and so finding the right compromise is a fairly personal decision I think - although it will probably divide into those two camps.
Going off-topic a bit, it would be nice if there were a 'phone only' kind of safe mode on the Universal, so if you do get something buggy going on you can set it to phone-only mode until you get round to sorting the problems, safe in the knowledge that at least the phone will work.
What do you think?

jah said:
@xiasma, which tariff is £8 per month? Can you purchase this online?
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It's the Data 5 tariff - purchase from an O2 shop, not online. You maybe able to buy it over the 'phone.

I think people are after quick bucks as well, to me the Exec is buggy, not because of the device but rather the reliablities of WM5. Performance wise it's decent even with O2 active, my major issue is I can't get most of my most often used softwares to work properly in WM5.
Size wise, I was really surprised as it's not nearly as big as I originally imagined, it's only slightly bigger than my old IIs. I think couple ROM upgrades, I'd love this thing

I am glad you guys started this thread. I too want to purchase an HTC Universal, but was having second thoughts because of the bad comments I read about it.
I do have one question though, "Is it plague with soft resets?" How often do you have to perform a soft/hard reset?

First, my hypocrisy: I have an XDA Exec, I've let the opportunity go by to return it and I'm probably going to persevere.
Next, the rant...
I think it is a complete disgrace for this product to have been released as it currently is. It shouldn't be necessary to spend a weekend getting a consumer device up and running. The bugs in the software are not "kinks", they are key pieces of functionality that simply do not work. Microsoft, O2, Vodaphone would have picked up these within 1 day of normal operation without installing ANY other software and yet they release the product and charge you for it.
Here are some of my most obvious examples:
* The phone pad T9 entry method does not work. On a clean O2 active install, this works until the first soft reset and then no more. Using the corporate mode, it works for a while and then stops.
* Microsoft Voice command, which has a link for purchase displayed directly on the Windows Mobile 2005 MS website does not display contact information when dialing a contact.
* About the first thing you have to install is an app to properly close applications because the memory management is so poor that you're constantly having to soft reset, or go into settings and close all programs. Ok, perhaps not a bug, but surely within a day of using a beta of the device ANY MS employee could go "oh, well, I guess our backgrounding method of memory management doesn't work".
I have hard-reset my device many times and yes, it's possible to make it work provided you put enough attention into it, but it's supposed to be a productivity tool and yet it's taken many more hours to use than it's saved.
This is the kind of experience the world had to put up with when Windows 95 was launched and I thought Microsoft had finally reached a point where they were able to release decent software (like Windows XP), but clearly they're still happy to release rediculously low quality products.
What I do plan to do is to harrass O2 as much as possible regarding this. Make them wish they'd never sold the product because of what it's costing them to support. As MS now have OEM resellers carefully positioned between the end user and themselves perhaps doing this will eventually put pressure on MS to stop insulting us.
What's sad, is that they're doing it again - Palm have just decided to start running Windows Mobile, so it's only a matter of time until the Microsoft monopoly has been extended to PDAs as well. And the crazy thing is that this isn't because of it even being a nice product to use (bugs aside). How can MS (who have been developing software for such a long time) be so completely clueless when it comes to software design. Reading this site confirms that I'm by no means the only one complaining:
* Nice, expensive crystal clear screen, brand spanking new OS and web browser. Oh, you can't browse in 640 X 480. Never mind...
* No full screen terminal services. Never mind...
* Let's not bother with a task switcher. It's much easier to go through the menu every time.
* Why provide a decent file explorer, people will never use it.
Every time, the support community comes up with nice freeware apps that fill all the holes and on the next release of the OS, all the same holes are there. It's like MS lock all the app designers and developers in a room and don't let them near an end user.
Believe it or not, this post not from an old Microsoft hater, but I'm surely becoming a new one.
There, I'm done...
Dave

It is better than the BlueAngel!!!
I received mine in from O2 the other day and from just running Win2005 and included software, this device really seems to be an improvement over my MDAIII, which I have never yet been able to work solidly in a years's time of playing with it. The build quality is very good. However, my 2 primary 3rd party applications - Goodlink push email and Tom Tom Navigator 5 - do not intall and work. I have been told that the Tom Tom will work if the CABs are transferred in manually, but I have not yet tried that. My Dictionary and Bible programs installed and work fine from their SD chips. But the only thing now is to wait for everybody to tweak apps to Microsoft 2005. This device should start to take off after that starts to occur. However, once HP with their iPaq 6515 upgraades to 2005, then that should be major competition to HTC - even though HTC makes those as well :lol:

There are absolutely, catagorically, 100% certainly, no arguements, LESS BUGS in my brand new WM5 JasJar than any WM2003SE device I've owned previously.
I agree with some points made though, software which works on WM5 is few and far between, and even if you find some which says it works, it may still cause problems...Look at SPB Pocket Plus which slows the JJ to a crawl if you put a storage card meter on your today screen.
My advice is to be patient and accept that because you've bought the first WM5 device, there will be some time to wait until there's software available that's not only "Compatible with...", but actually "Designed for..." WM5.

Very pleased I didn't own a WM2003 device older device then. It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
In terms of other applications, I completely accept that installing old apps on WM2005 may cause problems. I'm refering to the product "out the box".

daveb1976 said:
It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
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What "doesn't work"?
Everything that came with my JasJar works perfectly.
Your t9 problem is not something I've heard anyone mention before. If you've done a hard reset and it still doesn't work, I'd send it back to O2 and get them to replace it?

I've already taken it back twice and it's been swapped out both times. There are a number of people on this forum who have had the same problem. Here's one posting.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=30591&highlight=
I guess it's possible that if I were to flash to the imate ROM it might work, but then I lose my warrantee.

TBH, I disagree with just about EVERY point on your list
I'm certainly not aware of glaring bugs or omissions. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm using an MDA Pro - perhaps the XDA Exec's extra software is the cause for most gripes.
daveb1976 said:
* The phone pad T9 entry method does not work. On a clean O2 active install, this works until the first soft reset and then no more. Using the corporate mode, it works for a while and then stops.
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I hate T9 so I've never tried it on the Universal. Then again, with a full keyboard, why would I?
* Microsoft Voice command, which has a link for purchase displayed directly on the Windows Mobile 2005 MS website does not display contact information when dialing a contact.
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I use voice command all the time and it works PERFECTLY for me. That's well beyond my expectations. Now I can't say I've noticed your issue with contacts, but then again, when I use voice command it's when I'm not really using the screen or keyboard.
* About the first thing you have to install is an app to properly close applications because the memory management is so poor that you're constantly having to soft reset, or go into settings and close all programs. Ok, perhaps not a bug, but surely within a day of using a beta of the device ANY MS employee could go "oh, well, I guess our backgrounding method of memory management doesn't work".
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Click to collapse
Totally and utterly disagree
First of all, MS are trying to get people away from traditional Windows thinking of starting and stopping applications. They want to give the perception of everything just always being there and ready. This wasn't an easy decision for them, but I believe it was the right one. OK, for all us techies and PC-savvy types, yeah, we know what's going on in memory. But lots of consumers (your mum, for example) don't. And this is actually a behavior of the APPLICATIONS, not of Windows Mobile. Take a look at the developer's guidelines and you'll see.
Also, if you want to *terminate* an application that was not designed to be terminated using the (X) button, go to Settings, Memory, Running Programs. You can close any or all applications there. And that's been part of Windows Mobile since at least 2002, if not sooner.
I have hard-reset my device many times and yes, it's possible to make it work provided you put enough attention into it, but it's supposed to be a productivity tool and yet it's taken many more hours to use than it's saved.
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Click to collapse
That's your experience, but so far removed from mine it's untrue! Then again, I've installed almost nothing extra on my Universal.
[snip]
* Nice, expensive crystal clear screen, brand spanking new OS and web browser. Oh, you can't browse in 640 X 480. Never mind...
* No full screen terminal services. Never mind...
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Click to collapse
yeah, I'm in 100% agreement on these two.
:evil: :evil:
* Let's not bother with a task switcher. It's much easier to go through the menu every time.
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See my comment about Settings/memory/Running programs. You can use this as a task switcher too. But the idea really is to discourage this kind of Windows NT/XP mindset.
* Why provide a decent file explorer, people will never use it.
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Click to collapse
Another brave decision for MS is to try to make files easier for consumers to understand. The idea is
"I don't really understand file systems. Why can't I keep all my documents together? In fact, why do I even need to know where my documents are kept? I just want my spreadsheets to be presented to me when I go to Excel; I want my pictures to be presented to me when I go to picture viewer; etc"
MS had a stab at this with Windows 95 and "My Documents". They have abandoned this in Windows Vista in favour or something more like Windows Mobile's "show you what you need when you need it". All these utilities really will become obsolete for all but the most techie users. My companies products are following the same ideology in desktop and mobile software.

sub69 said:
daveb1976 said:
It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What "doesn't work"?
Everything that came with my JasJar works perfectly.
Your t9 problem is not something I've heard anyone mention before. If you've done a hard reset and it still doesn't work, I'd send it back to O2 and get them to replace it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The T9 PhonePad bug is described in other threads on this forum and I've found that my device has the same problem. However, I don't personally find this in any way restrictive since the Universal has ...umm... a full, usable, hardware keyboard.
All these PDA/phone machines have been best after several experiments with their configuration. I did a hard reset this morning so that I cleaned off all my experimental applications' legacies and now I'm running trusted, tested apps that work well and bring huge positive benefits.
However, people who just want a machine to work out of the box will find Microsoft's core applications are crap and empty of features. I fully agree with daveb1976 about that. I disagree that they're particularly buggy though.
Fortunately I (and many others on these forums) actually enjoy messing about with the configuration and tweaking the machines to get them working 100% the way we want. It's part of the pleasure of owning them IMHO. Not everybody will share this pleasure, though, and so some frustration is understandable.

SiliconS said:
However, people who just want a machine to work out of the box will find Microsoft's core applications are crap and empty of features. I fully agree with daveb1976 about that. I disagree that they're particularly buggy though.
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Again, I completely disagree. In fact, of almost ALL the 100s of computers I've used and owned, I'd say that it is less true of the MDA Pro than it is any other computer (maybe except the Z88)
Fortunately I (and many others on these forums) actually enjoy messing about with the configuration and tweaking the machines to get them working 100% the way we want. It's part of the pleasure of owning them IMHO. Not everybody will share this pleasure, though, and so some frustration is understandable.
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I'll agree with all of that though

Just got my Exec

Hmm I'm not sure if this is just my experience or not but I have never had a contract mobile before ..
Always suspected they were a bit of a con/rip off/customer service black hole.
So anyway, I finally decided I need a personal organizer/pda for work and since my employer gets a 50% discount on o2 I figured why not splurge.
Ordered my XDA Exec yesterday on 400 mins cross network tarrif (£15 p/m) and the handset was £149.
It arrived 48 hours later!
Only it came by DHL in an obviously re-sealed box. The unit was inside, no cellaphane in sight. The battery was charged already and despite the courier listing a simcard in the box inventory there wasnt one in there anywhere.
I am pretty deflated by this rather awful service so far .. is this normal?
Anyway I figured, this does not prevent me from firing it up and playing around on the WIFI networks at work.
I have played with this thing for a good 6 hrs today at work and here's my first impressions...
1. Asthetically its lovely but the buttons are easy to press while getting it out of the leather wallet. Camera is always on when I open it up .. grr.
2. My screen has a yellow tint to it. Is this normal? Seems kind of like a crap TFT panel used to look on earlier laptop units.
3. Anything network related seems to frequently cause the unit to hang. Checking my mail .. downloading 500 mails from IMAP took 15 mins and eventually crashed it.
MSM seems to crash a lot.
IE on this thing is quite simply poor. This may be biased by the fact I am a firefox developer .. but it is clunky, slow to respond, PHP sends it into a catatonic state and secure websites just plain confuse the thing.
Lots of crashing. No flash support??
Not impressed.
4. Software. Like, where is it? WM5 has next to nothing useful thats free. I don't believe in shareware at all .. where's the OS stuff? Where's the PDA port of this and that? Very dissapointed that all the stuff I found was win 2003 se only and that was that.
This alone renders the thing a waste of time .. sadly ..
5. Keypad is just useable but I hate the feel. Keys are flat and the rebound is so firm you frequently have to go back and press it down harder to get the right chracter to appear. Its hard work tbh.
Oh and the most annoying 'bug' of all ..
When the thing turns the backlight off to power save, it doesnt seem to come back on at the same level it was at before going into standby.
It comes on so dark you have to tilt it to the light to get through the menus to turn it up.
Annoying .. but fixable I'm sure ..
Anyway, some thoughts.
Generally I think this has potential but it clearly hasnt got enough memory to run smoothly .. 49mb of useable memory? Pah! It reminds me of the kind of things you see on ebay where someone is selling a p4 laptop with 64 mb of ram installed. Waste of time.
The cpu is either crap or scaled so far back to save power it crawls. Jury is out on that for now ..
Summarizing, I DO like this .. but the lack of good free software and the diddy memory and seemingly bloated and clunky wm5 + bugs ruins it totally.
I will probably be trading this in for an XDA IIi next week.
That is if O2 sort me out. As it is, I am frankly disgusted with their approach to new customers! "Lets send em a refurb and see if they notice ..". I even told the guy I was a customer relations rep for a large corp. Like I know how it works .. bah.
That said, am getting 50% discount over Mr. Public. So can't complain TOO loudly ..

- Deleted -

This is the most useful review I have read. Thankyou.
TBH, its windows. It's gonna be buggy. I think they just send these out untested, safe in the knowledge that:
a) Buzz or Mamaich will inevitably patch, repair or find awkward ways around 90% of the bugs.
b) The average XDA user is a nerd and will probably follow those instructions/patches and *happily* put up with the buggy features.
c) Joe public isn't clever enough to operate a PDA properly. The average person is too stupid to realise that their PDA crashes itself. They think they're making it crash and are too proud to ask for help/consult the internet. They want a PDA 'cos all their work buddies have them and it makes them look important, using it for little more than checking emails occasionally.
d) Microsoft/HTC know that the kind of person who buys these PDA/phones is the kind of person who will always want the newest gadget, and so will forget about the bugs/issues as soon as the new XDA is released (with its own host of problems). Why bother fixing it when in a few months it will be old news and people will have something new to complain about.
PS, 02 gave me a refurb XDA2s when the insurance replacement they sent me was faulty. It works fine which only around 25% do so I'd rther put up with a refurb than complain and have a 75% chance of the brand new one they send me being faulty.

Sending this on the exec ..
I kinda figured o2 would be light on customer consideration. Hehe.
The phone I got appears to be alright now tbh. I have hard reset to corporate and it is light years smoother. In fact it hasn't crashed once in the last 4 hours!
Performance is fine now too. Still not as fast as you'dd like but it certainly feels more responsive.
I AM A DUMB ASS. The sim was in the box, it had been tossed in loose and was wedged between the user manual compartment lid and the inner structure of that fruity pandora's box.
I'm VERY impressed with the battery life so far.. Talking hours. Neato.
Of course the complete lack of developer interest/support in this version of winblows means i'll still not be keeping it unfortunately. Only Microsoft would release a next gen pda os and NOT include binary compatibility either natively or virtually.
So far haven't found a good free irc client that works. All either pay-for-fun or 2003se only. Bummer.
I have now decided the keyboard is useless. That + the wm5 software absentism means I might either trade for a 2003 xda or buy an IPAQ. Since they seem to have a vast quantity of stuff available: Including a LINUX distro.
With regards the keyboard.. Why the f00 they didn't consider half the number of keys correctly aligned and reasonably proportioned ... who knows. Maybe its like you say, this technology is just blingware and nobody seriously expected people to sit down and type a post like this one. Which, incidentally I am doing with the stylus!
Anyway my hand/neck/wrists hurt already.
Must decist for now.

gubbs said:
Hmm I'm not sure if this is just my experience or not but
3. Anything network related seems to frequently cause the unit to hang. Checking my mail .. downloading 500 mails from IMAP took 15 mins and eventually crashed it.
That said, am getting 50% discount over Mr. Public. So can't complain TOO loudly ..
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Click to collapse
500 mails.. Wow!
Huib

My JJ crahes when downloading POP email, usually when I am using 3G.
I have to say the ergonmics of the JJ/Exec are mixed. But for me the keyboard is fantastic; typed for 2 x 30 minutes on the train.

for it is great
I have had mine three weeks and it is excellent.
The screen is clear and all functions work great.
I did not load the standard settings as this gives all the o2 stuff that slows it down.
Loaded spb pockect plus which gives as many features as i need.
i believe you have a returned unit.
I have purchased three phones from o2, the XDA, XDA11s and now the Exec and i have always had everything boxed and sealed the battery is normally partialy charged which is standard these days.
Your comments are the same as a friend of mine who ordered the T mobile option and his arrived like yours i told him to return it that day.
He contacted T mobile and his replacement arrived today boxed correctly and perfectly happy with it.
You have a 14 day return policy which some people seem to find a good way of ordering the phone playing around with it and then sending it back under the policy. This then will go back out to a new purchaser as O2 believe it is just a return as the customer did not find it to be what they wanted.
My advice would be return it now, tell o2 you are not happy as the box was resealed they will send yoiu a replacement probable overnight.
clive

How on earth did you get that Tarrif??
'Ordered my XDA Exec yesterday on 400 mins cross network tarrif (£15 p/m) and the handset was £149.'
I have not seen this anywhere and iot sounds great?

Hmm ok, well I'll get on to o2 in a few mins. Have a cup of tea first - has been a long morning.
Reg. the tarrif it's o2 200 + free double minutes for six months.
It would normally be £30 a month but my employer staff contracts afford a (generous) 50% discount.
The handset is marked the same on the public o2 website ... £149? I don't think I got any reductions on that.
BTW I am typing this on the keyboard today and would like to admit as long as the surface you have it on is very level and very firm (ie not your knee or briefcase lid) then its not so bad.
I also need to google and find out what spb pocket plus is ..
Also you know, I am a pda n00b. I'm sure a lot of what I have said is entirely because I haven't sufficient experience with this technology. I don't pretend to be giving anything more than as-is impressions.

Ok. Spoke to a nice lady at O2 - I think we had chemistry or something - cos she called me 'hun' and arranged for a replacement (new) handset straight away and bunged me £10 off my first bill.
Sweet.
I took it to my manager at work today who I know owns an XDAii and who is a SUPER Geek (tm). He informed me I am not using the keyboard right .. you have to hold it in your hands and type using your thumbs.
Doing this, with autocomplete by tapping the screen with a thumbnail produces some pretty impressive and speedy typing.
I also compared the screen to the one on his XDAii and frankly, it is noticeably smoother. Also in comparrisson the unit weighs in it's case practically the SAME amount as an XDAii (in real world tests not on paper I'm sure). It also found more networks on wifi, quicker than his XDAii and he has announced he wants one. Which would suggest, from a long term XDAii user, that these are a step up from that model. Well either that or he's viciously insecure, competative and fickle. I did say manager didn't I?
All in all, its OK. I seem to get it very grimey tho. Must get some wipes.
I'll be posting a proper, intelligent, considered, non-reflex review on here next week when I get it up and running. I'll also be taking the pictures with the camera and what not ..

Thanks, helpful opinions and info. Ordered mine from O2 on Friday, just watiting for it to arrive
M.

I've had mine about 2 weeks now and at first I wasn't that impressed. It was mainly that speed that annoyed me, but that's sorted now.
I did a basic install and removed all the O2 crap, well, I tried but it failed on the remove, so I deleted the relevant program from the startup and it's all good now. I went back to the Windows default theme as well.
I've got Resco File Explorer, MagicButton running and GSPocketMagic++, though all the features for GSPocketMagic++ are turned off (just having it installed makes it quicker, which is odd).
Screen flips are now down to under 2 seconds, which I think is reasonable. It now responds instantly to screen taps, whereas before it would have a delay of a second or so.
I installed spb pocketplus for a while but found it really slowed my system down. I think it was the battery monitor on the today screen that did it. It's now uninstalled and the thing flies.
All I need to do now is get some kind of navigation sorted and I'm fully happy. I think it's way better than my old XDA2.

So, which install should I do then, basic or corporate?
Thanks
M.

lol gubbs @ your thoughts and experiences.
The sad truth is that many of us get so much pleasure out of just owning a machine like the Exec that we're prepared to overlook its flaws, of which there are (to be honest) many. I love mine, but you're right: there's sod-all software available yet that is 100% compatible (and I mean properly compatible, not just "well, we think it works but it might slow your machine down a bit: try it and let us know how you get on"), and WM5 is horribly crippled by a lack of feature-rich functionality.
There is a halo effect on the Exec caused by its position at the cutting edge of Windows-based phone/PDA models. We think we have the best machines available.
IMHO there are three groups of Exec users:
- technologically ignorant users who use it exactly as O2 intended. Will be either happy or ambivalent about it
- geeks who love to tweak. (I'm in this group.) We, with this website, will work on the damn thing until we're happy with it, and this is part of the satisfaction and pleasure of ownership. Are already happy with their Exec because it's the best money can buy, and we overlook its little faults.
- newcomers who've previously owned a Palm/Treo/whatever. Will generally be disappointed with the Exec because it's different from what they're used to and will seem slow/crippled/buggy. Might become happy in time, but more likely to return unit and swear they'll never touch Windows Mobile again.
gubbs, I'd guess you were in the third group when you first posted here, but now you're moving towards the second group. I reckon you'll be a-tweakin' and a-moddin' with the rest of 'em within weeks! Then (and only then) will you love your Exec.

I agree.
After spending 10 months with the XDA 2s I couldn't go back to a "normal" phone. I've had PDAs since before they were called PDAs - this was my first one - http://tinyurl.com/cyhjo
Yes, I have to reboot it most days, and yes it does some odd stuff, but in general it's been an amazing device.
It's in for repair (lose keyboard) and I'm using an old Nokia 6600 while I wait for my Exec to arrive. I've only been without of for 3 days and it's been like losing my right arm!
M.

The biggest Universal problem

Microsoft behind the thing! Operating system and applications in one dish and no big boy can eat in it. No competition. No killer apps coming from who knows where. No unskeduled innovations. No hurry to cover, bugs created, market holes.

And now in English? :shock:

S'funny I seem to have quite a few third party apps on my Universal, some of which I use more than any pre-installed ones from MS.
Also if you don't want to use MS products why not buy a nice Symbian based pda phone? The Motorola a1000 is nice and the SE P range.

IMHO
The biggest problem is not any one thing in particular...
Yesterday I used an old, disregarded & completely discarded Sony Ericsson T610 - which is about 3 years old.
So T610 Vs. Universal?
Of course one is a bluetooth mobile phone the other is clearly much more... but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think...
The T610 paired with my Motorola H500 BT headset immediately, it dialled, redialled and held calls with perfect clarity & reception. For being an old phone.. I was actually amazed at how speedy it responded making calls, accepting calls, switching from BT to phone, etc etc
all this was achieved with absolute effortless stability....
That made me think how 'awkward' my M5000 is in similar operations... the dropped calls, the dropped BT connections & so on... you know, all the issues we simplly just 'put up with'
Sifting through this forum again & reminding myself of these many different issues we've all at one time or another experienced with our Universals such as stability, responsiveness, performance & the like are the biggest problems
Shame really.. as on paper the Universal is indeed a very fine unit - in operation however it leaves a lot to be desired...

philtech44 said:
IMHO
.. but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think....
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Fact? Get real. No one in their right mind (not even MS or O2) would claim that the primary function of the Universal is voice communication. Even your own sig makes that obvious

Ineedtoys said:
philtech44 said:
IMHO
.. but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fact? Get real. No one in their right mind (not even MS or O2) would claim that the primary function of the Universal is voice communication. Even your own sig makes that obvious
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Click to collapse
What? not a phone?
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
... as a flagship model!!!

philtech44 said:
What? not a phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You claimed that voice was the PRIMARY function. If that's the case, why did you pay all that money for the VGA display, large keyboard, 3G, and Pocket PC / Windows Mobile OS, for something that doesn't even have a caller display on the cover? But since you've got the M5000, let's look at Orange's own buy-line:-
"The Orange SPV M5000 is a 3G PDA that can be used to make and receive voice calls"
There you go. 3G PDA first, voice last. No attempt to call it a "phone", like Sony make no attempt to call the T610 a "PDA".
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
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Err... Now you are being silly. Who gets the revenue from 3G and GPRS usage?
... as a flagship model!!!
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It might be flagship model, but it's a DATA centric device for business users, which is why the whole design is geared to using as it as a mini-laptop replacement.
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Indeed. There are plenty of other devices more suited if you need something more "Phone" like. Sounds to me like you just bought it because it was the most expensive, instead of what was right for your needs. That's hardly HTC's fault. :roll:

I kind of agree. I think alot of the phone has been spoiled by ONLY using Windows. (i dont think windows is crap and are not trying to slate it)
There are a few features that other phones have that make them well trick, wee lights that change colour, torches - a bunch of stuff that, lets be hounest you do not need but, makes the phone cool and helps to justify the massive brick in your pocket.
like why was VGA not supported properly? why dont the external buttons light up? why not a torch with the flash?
just my tuppance worth
JAmes

I think one of the major issues here is that the PDA operating system is trying very hard to fit in with its parent, Windows XP. So, just as Outlook, MS Access etc struggle to work with vCard formats, so does the PDA. In this day and age, when even kids tend to have two mobiles (or two cell phone numbers), how can your Contacts database be limited to one mobile number but umpteen fields for landline voice/fax numbers.
Soon, at least in the UK, mobiles are going to overtake landlines (it may already have done so for private/residential users, I don't know).
As a Mac user, I can easily transfer numbers between the Mac, SE P910i and Nokia 9500, and all the mobile numbers for each contact come across (on the N9500 you have to just change the field def, which isn't a prob) but having transferred 600+ vCards to the M5000, I lost all primary mobile numbers and only got the second or third preference mobile across.
At the very least, you should be able to add/redefine fields in the Contacts database -- I've looked and can't find any info or facility for this. That is just one of the deficiencies of WinCE/WM5.
Actually, I'm hoping that now Apple has adopted Intel chips, one of these days they're going to announce a Mobie version of OS X -- now that would be something. I'm sure a lot of users would at least try it, and many of those would even migrate (I can dream, can't I?)

Ineedtoys said:
philtech44 said:
What? not a phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You claimed that voice was the PRIMARY function. If that's the case, why did you pay all that money for the VGA display, large keyboard, 3G, and Pocket PC / Windows Mobile OS, for something that doesn't even have a caller display on the cover? But since you've got the M5000, let's look at Orange's own buy-line:-
"The Orange SPV M5000 is a 3G PDA that can be used to make and receive voice calls"
There you go. 3G PDA first, voice last. No attempt to call it a "phone", like Sony make no attempt to call the T610 a "PDA".
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Err... Now you are being silly. Who gets the revenue from 3G and GPRS usage?
... as a flagship model!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It might be flagship model, but it's a DATA centric device for business users, which is why the whole design is geared to using as it as a mini-laptop replacement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed. There are plenty of other devices more suited if you need something more "Phone" like. Sounds to me like you just bought it because it was the most expensive, instead of what was right for your needs. That's hardly HTC's fault. :roll:
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ineedtoys - has the cheek to say I bought the most expensive toy with a username like that?!
javascript:emoticon(':?')
I'm not going to argue whether the primary function is a phone or mini-laptop/pda, etc etc
or whether a T610 is PDA or indeed a bacon sandwich or something...
As with any MULTI-FUNCTION device - they are simply different things to different people dont you think?
ineed, the title of this thread is "the biggest problem..."
I believe the fact that the phone function of the Universal is not what it should be makes it the biggest problem for me & I suspect quite a few others...
It's quite clear you don't agree with that.. I never made that statement to p*** you or anyone off... or feel the need to argue my case... it's my opinion... and essentially what I'm saying I suspect many would agree with.. However, you haven't yet joined in with the thread and offered your OWN view on what you believe is the biggest problem...??
So, in your view, what is the biggest problem with the Universal ??

@philtech44
I'm wth you - the Universal should do the basic functions of a cell/mobile phone at least as good as the T610 or a K750. A SIM free Universal is between $900 - $1000. For this kind of money you should be getting the best communications device. My daughter's free Moto v3X shows the gap in communication capability of the Universal - you see these are both 3G phones and the extra capacity of 3G improves voice calls, but not on the Universal!

jah said:
@philtech44
I'm wth you - the Universal should do the basic functions of a cell/mobile phone at least as good as the T610 or a K750. A SIM free Universal is between $900 - $1000. For this kind of money you should be getting the best communications device. My daughter's free Moto v3X shows the gap in communication capability of the Universal - you see these are both 3G phones and the extra capacity of 3G improves voice calls, but not on the Universal!
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My point exactly.. my crappy old T610's phone functions including bluetooth worked effortlessy well... my M5000 felt like a Nokia Cityman in comparison and this is wrong...
and yes - for a flagship 3G device.... well... I will say that out of the Universal and two baked bean cans connected via a piece of string... yes, the Universal wins... :lol:

sipat said:
I think one of the major issues here is that the PDA operating system is trying very hard to fit in with its parent, Windows XP. So, just as Outlook, MS Access etc struggle to work with vCard formats, so does the PDA. In this day and age, when even kids tend to have two mobiles (or two cell phone numbers), how can your Contacts database be limited to one mobile number but umpteen fields for landline voice/fax numbers.
Soon, at least in the UK, mobiles are going to overtake landlines (it may already have done so for private/residential users, I don't know).
As a Mac user, I can easily transfer numbers between the Mac, SE P910i and Nokia 9500, and all the mobile numbers for each contact come across (on the N9500 you have to just change the field def, which isn't a prob) but having transferred 600+ vCards to the M5000, I lost all primary mobile numbers and only got the second or third preference mobile across.
At the very least, you should be able to add/redefine fields in the Contacts database -- I've looked and can't find any info or facility for this. That is just one of the deficiencies of WinCE/WM5.
Actually, I'm hoping that now Apple has adopted Intel chips, one of these days they're going to announce a Mobie version of OS X -- now that would be something. I'm sure a lot of users would at least try it, and many of those would even migrate (I can dream, can't I?)
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yes sipat.. that is definitely another big problem
As far as Apple is concerned & being a Mac specialist myself, you could only imagine a OSX Mobile OS... simple, effective, robust and as far as connectivity & compatibility is concerned.. well we live to dream eh?

I'm sorry I don't agree. At the current point that technology stands you will not get an open OS multi-function device operating as well and as effeciently as a closed OS phone. Granted that Symbian may be more stable, but then it is the much older more experienced OS too.
The T610 has basically one job, it operates as a phone, using it's own software, which has all been written to work together at the expense of ignoring other possibilities.
The universal has an open OS which has to allow third parties to add software, that dosn't even exist yet. This open software is bound to be slower, it has to be, it has too many possibilities it has to consider.
Comparing the speed of a T610 and a universal is like comparing the Fuel economy of a Bicycle and a Jeep. They are 2 entirely different things.
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Funny how my Universal never drops call, bluetooth works perfectly for handsfree and GPS. I can't remember the last time I soft reset, and when I did it was only part of the installation of new software. It dosn't crash, freeze or run any slower then I'd expect. Why is this? Am I just incredibly lucky?
However I have been using PDA's for a long time, and have come at this device as a PDA with a phone built in, rather than the other way round. If people think a T610 is better, (and yes I did have one once). Then you have bought the completely wrong device with a Universal, because while your T610 may be faster, my Universal is providing so many more functions.
(EDIT): lol Wow, that wasn't intended to come out as such a rant.

Gajet said:
I'm sorry I don't agree. At the current point that technology stands you will not get an open OS multi-function device operating as well and as effeciently as a closed OS phone. Granted that Symbian may be more stable, but then it is the much older more experienced OS too.
The T610 has basically one job, it operates as a phone, using it's own software, which has all been written to work together at the expense of ignoring other possibilities.
The universal has an open OS which has to allow third parties to add software, that dosn't even exist yet. This open software is bound to be slower, it has to be, it has too many possibilities it has to consider.
Comparing the speed of a T610 and a universal is like comparing the Fuel economy of a Bicycle and a Jeep. They are 2 entirely different things.
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Funny how my Universal never drops call, bluetooth works perfectly for handsfree and GPS. I can't remember the last time I soft reset, and when I did it was only part of the installation of new software. It dosn't crash, freeze or run any slower then I'd expect. Why is this? Am I just incredibly lucky?
However I have been using PDA's for a long time, and have come at this device as a PDA with a phone built in, rather than the other way round. If people think a T610 is better, (and yes I did have one once). Then you have bought the completely wrong device with a Universal, because while your T610 may be faster, my Universal is providing so many more functions.
(EDIT): lol Wow, that wasn't intended to come out as such a rant.
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Click to collapse
Firstly, nothing to be sorry about... BUT gajet do stop it!
Do yourself a big favour & dont try to turn my simple statement into a silly
HTC Universal Vs. Sony Ericsson T610 contest... that is not what I said!!
you've foolishly twisted my very SIMPLE point into something utterly ridiculous my friend!
Your comparison between bicycles, Jeeps and the like is also junk pal!!
Kindly go back to my original post and take it at FACE VALUE...
A phone is a phone. A PDA is a PDA.
A PDA with a phone is what it is and so is a Phone with a PDA...
the point is anything that calls itself a phone, whether or not integrated with a toaster or a kettle, PDA or surgically inserted somewhere interesting, should therefore function both properly and effectively, and with some degree of quality as a bleedin' phone!!!
Do you agree with that statement or not?
It's quite clear... the Universals performance as a phone is somewhat cr*ppy for todays technology - its a let down, no question about it. Could be & should be better!
I've compared only that function, to a phone that was designed 5 years ago, manufactured 4 years ago and released to the public thereafter.. and that FACT is my only point here in this thread...
Now as for your own personal experience of Universals, well might I suggest searching the forum for threads which cover the FACT that the Universal - for some of us - does drop calls, Bluetooth is temperamental, are forced to soft & hard reset, and so on... I mean why is the Universal forum so huge with 100's of 1000's of views in its history, with issues AND fixes abound?
But again I must stress, my personal view is the Universals phone function is cr*ppy compared to what it really should be... This is 2006... not 2001... if you dont agree lets see what phone performance will be like in HTC's next generation & equivalent of the Universal...
Do you think they will upgrade all the other functions and leave the phone as it is then?!
get me now??

philtech44 said:
IMHO
So T610 Vs. Universal?
...
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Click to collapse
Actually it is exactly what you said.
And my points which you completely missed are if you are going to compare the Universal to other devices, it should be compared to it's peers, not to a completely different device. Compare the Universal to the other similar PDA/phone combos by HTC, a HP Ipaq phone edition, it would even be fair to compare against a Moto a1000, SE P910 etc
Of course these devices improve over time, my Universal is considerable better than my Blue Angel, which appears in turn to have been better than the original XDA range. So yes the next device will probably be better still, but then where on earth did you get the impression I ever thought otherwise.

Gajet said:
philtech44 said:
IMHO
So T610 Vs. Universal?
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it is exactly what you said.
And my points which you completely missed are if you are going to compare the Universal to other devices, it should be compared to it's peers, not to a completely different device. Compare the Universal to the other similar PDA/phone combos by HTC, a HP Ipaq phone edition, it would even be fair to compare against a Moto a1000, SE P910 etc
Of course these devices improve over time, my Universal is considerable better than my Blue Angel, which appears in turn to have been better than the original XDA range. So yes the next device will probably be better still, but then where on earth did you get the impression I ever thought otherwise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I did!! errr... whoops!
But still it should still operate as a phone mate & do so well.. it is sold by mobile phone companies isn't it?

No I agree with you 100% there. However when I compare the Universal to other devices of similar functionality on the current market, then it comes out very well.
In fact where I hang out usually at 3g.co.uk, they compare the Universal against other 3g phones, (Which I do realise goes completely against my main point :roll: ), but the Universal still comes out very well.
Yes the universal could be better, (mainly speed wise), but at this current point in time it does very well.
I wish I could clone mine to pass around to all those having troubles, but my suspicion is that most troubles are generated when some tweaking, or installation of third party apps are involved, or more commonly when the damn phone companies insist on using their own versions of HTC's software, (O2 Active and the damn Orange homescreen for example).
Anyway all the above is purely my oppinion, I had no intention of getting into any personal arguements and hopefully we have come to an understanding here

Gajet said:
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
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Hi. I don't want to crank this up to another level, especially after the last post about coming to some understanding. Us Mac guys know that you can get quite emotionally attached to your gadjets, Gajet, but that statement above is so condescending!
I don't think you give people enough credit -- some may have bought their phone because it was the most expensive and is had good "showing-off/one-upmanship" value, but most of have acquired to manage our work and life. When you pay a premium price, you expect a premium product. Using your analogy, you wouldn't expect to have handle-bars instead of a steering wheel in your Jeep, eh?
In my opinion, it is fairer to compare the functionality of a PDA with similar functions on a desktop machine. and, my gripe is still about the Contacts database -- I want editable fields and true vCard compatibility. I don't think I'm expecting too much from what is supposedly a mature product (the Contacts bit is based on Windows for PC tech after all). As this is my first Win based mobile OS I'm still trying to sort out certain issues, but I understand that even moving data from/between supposedly similar or compatible PDAs is not straight forward.
Aaahh! Maybe Mac users are just spoiled silly, hey.

Everybody keeps talking about what the thing is and what should be, but this is not the reason i started this topic for. So i must repeat myself. Who can fix bluetooth problems? Microsoft. Who can fix radio problems? Microsoft. Who can fix performance problems? Microsoft. Who can fix basic applications problems? Microsoft. Who can fix data sync problems? Microsoft. So we totally depend on Microsoft and she can take all the time she wants.

the truth is out there

Here goes, my first ever post on any forum. So please bare with me on the following. I'm laid in bed next to my lovely wife and it hits me, why do we mess with all this tech! More rhetorical, than a question. More to the point my wife asks "if it's not broken why fix it?"
It leads me to add to the already hyped wm5. I believe there is a reason behind the so called 'lack of upgrade' for the mda compact. And I may make a believer out of you all.
If you know anything about computers, you will understand about CPU's. My desktop computer is meant to be an amd duron 1600mhz, but I can clock it at 2100mhz. They call this overclocking (sorry, I'm teaching you how to suck eggs). In reality it's what we call a broken spec CPU. The chip probably started off as an amd athon 2000xp. But failed the tests, so not to waste the capital gain. They remove some cache and a couple of IC controllers and hey presto - they made 50 quid at something they should have thrown away. Or should they? This theory is a long standing myth that dates back to the late 90's with broken server chips being rebaged by Intel as mmx 200mhz. It was even stated in a PC mag that celerons were broken versions of p3's. AGAIN certain features were removed to make it cheap. But this is just a myth! Getting back to the mda issue. I think that htc designed many models that are robust... But they decided to try out a spec with the latest (at the time) software. It has to be cost effective and at least meet a minimum quality. And don't forget deadlines. So times ticking away and you get a cut down version of what should have been created. This would explain the lack of support for wm5 as it would be too flaky to use. If at all.
I've for the past 12 months, tried to use bluetooth, make the camera work, have a decent conversation without having to reset or reinstall the crummy software.
This is my forth mda compact. I have no faith in ms, htc or t-mobile, that brings me back to what my wife said.
My answer is they never worked when we got them. But its fun trying to fix or understand them!
HTC went in at the bottom for this and the early adopters of this tech pay the price - but that's business.
I'm ready to through this away cos this is refusing like the little b'tard child it is, to do as it's told.
Question for you all, no need to reply. Have you reset your mda compact more times than the total amount you have ever reset all the home computers you have had or used in your lifetime?
If so welcome to my world.
P.s this is a fantastic site.

I appreciate your logic,BUT
Mine works fine! i have the TMobile MDA here in the US, it really does a good job. I overclocked it to 252, reg tweaks, bluetooth with my Jabra BT250, wifi on G, and I love it. Best phone ever (did 1.13 radio rom upgrade)
Sorry you are having such troubles that are having you type while you laying next to a beautiful bird!!! Throw that thing out and get busy!!!
Good Luck. :twisted:

cheers mate. i'll try n wake her up.
nah to honest i love the phone. I've been in and out of the computer industry for the past 12 years. i'm getting behind. but i still manage to spot issues or problems.
They replaced it 4 times cos i found the problems.I insisted it was software but t-mobile was just starting out with this breed of smartphones.
my main point is no matter what the product, it never lives up to the dream, but it's good to learn how to fix or purge ideas to make something better than what it was original.
I'm just frustrated...
by the way i find it funny that when you show the phone off and tell the crowd it's got windows they ask does it crash

Thinking about moving from Palm and Symbian to WM5 PPC some ??'s

Hello all, as the title states I'm thinking of buying a Universal. I've lurked this site for a couple of weeks now and have lots of questiones answered but some are still lingering. I am a Palm user using a Sony UX-50 I'm hooked on this form factor tablet and laptop modes( one of the reasons I like the Universal similar from factor). But it has no phone capability which makes for carrying a phone. So I have a Symbian OS mobile phone(SX-1). The Palm device has piss poor battery life for on line use; and the phone has version 1 OS that cannot be upgraded and a lot of the software being created is not backwards compatible so I miss a lot of the apps that are coming out.
Which brings me here... when the Universal came out I thought it was the best converged device brought to market, but the price tag was too steep and rumours(at that time) was the OS was very unstable; times have changed prices have dropped and there are many ROM upgrades for this device so I'm thinking about getting one.
One of my concerns is the Caller id issue I have a headset that displays #'s but would like to have name as well per this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=264700&highlight=Bluetooth+caller+id
I would like to get the Tekkeon headset and be able to see the phonebook not sure if this is possible with Jetware software.
Also the use of Dual sim cards I know it will work per this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=246114&highlight=dual+sim+holder but can it work without turning off and on the phone I believe it was a paticular ROM upgrade that made it possible?
But my biggest concern is the future; I know technology is always moving forward and newer and better devices come out every 6 months. This device seems to be expandable ie. people are using WM6 already unlike my Palm and Symbian OS that are not able to upgrade their systems; it seems that this OS or device is able to keep moving forward with technology. I have many many more questions but will search for those answers.
Anyways thanks for reading this and any and all help is appreciated.

I suggest you goto a local store that stock them and have a play around first before spending your hard-earned cash. I'm always worried when someone mentions how long a particular pda/mobile will last..its entirely down to the individual. Most people buy what's available at the time they can afford it. I've known friends that have owned pdas and mobiles for years and are still content with them. You need to ask yourself if the universal is what you're looking for. There's a significant difference in size compared to a sony clie ux50. However if youre looking for that perfect convergence device, I doubt you'll find the answer...its horses for courses unfortunately.

Thanks for the reply; it's not the life span perse but the upgradability of the OS will this device be able to handle; let say WM7.5? The UX is still on par with most PDA's today but its life cycle is coming to an end Sony pulled out of that market warranties are nonexistent.
The size is not that much of a deal breaker for me; I toyed with one a year ago and liked it. I guess I'm down to the little details. I guess, like other people I'm looking for the Ultimate converged device and so far this seems to be the closeset out there.
Cheers

ok..however theres no real guarantee at all that there will be further upgrades to the Universal. Look at the HP hx4700 for example. It was the top of the range HP pda for a while until HP decided to discontinue it, but a Windows Mobile 5 upgrade was made officially available for it. Alas, its still a dicontinued pda and its future remains at an end. Its obvious that the Universal will have a successor, and manufacturers will continue to produce better, more efficient devices. The Universal will eventually be superceeded and discontinued, however it will have a following. There is currently a WM5 Crossbow rom, albeit in different flavours, available that works quite well, especially Helmi's version, and hopefully a newer build will be out soon so theres plenty of life left in the Universal. I've had mine for over a year now and am very pleased with its functionality. In fact, the newer rom makes it a more interesting device to own. I've also owned most other pda/mobiles and have found I return to the Universal for its vga screen, keyboard, speed and overall class above the rest status. Remember, you're at the best stage to be contemplating its purchase as its had more than 12 months of "shelf-life", and as newer roms become available, it will get better.

Thats so true, I am an early watcher; but late adopter, so with that I will be getting one.