Microsoft behind the thing! Operating system and applications in one dish and no big boy can eat in it. No competition. No killer apps coming from who knows where. No unskeduled innovations. No hurry to cover, bugs created, market holes.
And now in English? :shock:
S'funny I seem to have quite a few third party apps on my Universal, some of which I use more than any pre-installed ones from MS.
Also if you don't want to use MS products why not buy a nice Symbian based pda phone? The Motorola a1000 is nice and the SE P range.
IMHO
The biggest problem is not any one thing in particular...
Yesterday I used an old, disregarded & completely discarded Sony Ericsson T610 - which is about 3 years old.
So T610 Vs. Universal?
Of course one is a bluetooth mobile phone the other is clearly much more... but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think...
The T610 paired with my Motorola H500 BT headset immediately, it dialled, redialled and held calls with perfect clarity & reception. For being an old phone.. I was actually amazed at how speedy it responded making calls, accepting calls, switching from BT to phone, etc etc
all this was achieved with absolute effortless stability....
That made me think how 'awkward' my M5000 is in similar operations... the dropped calls, the dropped BT connections & so on... you know, all the issues we simplly just 'put up with'
Sifting through this forum again & reminding myself of these many different issues we've all at one time or another experienced with our Universals such as stability, responsiveness, performance & the like are the biggest problems
Shame really.. as on paper the Universal is indeed a very fine unit - in operation however it leaves a lot to be desired...
philtech44 said:
IMHO
.. but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think....
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Fact? Get real. No one in their right mind (not even MS or O2) would claim that the primary function of the Universal is voice communication. Even your own sig makes that obvious
Ineedtoys said:
philtech44 said:
IMHO
.. but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fact? Get real. No one in their right mind (not even MS or O2) would claim that the primary function of the Universal is voice communication. Even your own sig makes that obvious
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Click to collapse
What? not a phone?
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
... as a flagship model!!!
philtech44 said:
What? not a phone?
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Click to collapse
You claimed that voice was the PRIMARY function. If that's the case, why did you pay all that money for the VGA display, large keyboard, 3G, and Pocket PC / Windows Mobile OS, for something that doesn't even have a caller display on the cover? But since you've got the M5000, let's look at Orange's own buy-line:-
"The Orange SPV M5000 is a 3G PDA that can be used to make and receive voice calls"
There you go. 3G PDA first, voice last. No attempt to call it a "phone", like Sony make no attempt to call the T610 a "PDA".
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
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Err... Now you are being silly. Who gets the revenue from 3G and GPRS usage?
... as a flagship model!!!
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It might be flagship model, but it's a DATA centric device for business users, which is why the whole design is geared to using as it as a mini-laptop replacement.
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Indeed. There are plenty of other devices more suited if you need something more "Phone" like. Sounds to me like you just bought it because it was the most expensive, instead of what was right for your needs. That's hardly HTC's fault. :roll:
I kind of agree. I think alot of the phone has been spoiled by ONLY using Windows. (i dont think windows is crap and are not trying to slate it)
There are a few features that other phones have that make them well trick, wee lights that change colour, torches - a bunch of stuff that, lets be hounest you do not need but, makes the phone cool and helps to justify the massive brick in your pocket.
like why was VGA not supported properly? why dont the external buttons light up? why not a torch with the flash?
just my tuppance worth
JAmes
I think one of the major issues here is that the PDA operating system is trying very hard to fit in with its parent, Windows XP. So, just as Outlook, MS Access etc struggle to work with vCard formats, so does the PDA. In this day and age, when even kids tend to have two mobiles (or two cell phone numbers), how can your Contacts database be limited to one mobile number but umpteen fields for landline voice/fax numbers.
Soon, at least in the UK, mobiles are going to overtake landlines (it may already have done so for private/residential users, I don't know).
As a Mac user, I can easily transfer numbers between the Mac, SE P910i and Nokia 9500, and all the mobile numbers for each contact come across (on the N9500 you have to just change the field def, which isn't a prob) but having transferred 600+ vCards to the M5000, I lost all primary mobile numbers and only got the second or third preference mobile across.
At the very least, you should be able to add/redefine fields in the Contacts database -- I've looked and can't find any info or facility for this. That is just one of the deficiencies of WinCE/WM5.
Actually, I'm hoping that now Apple has adopted Intel chips, one of these days they're going to announce a Mobie version of OS X -- now that would be something. I'm sure a lot of users would at least try it, and many of those would even migrate (I can dream, can't I?)
Ineedtoys said:
philtech44 said:
What? not a phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You claimed that voice was the PRIMARY function. If that's the case, why did you pay all that money for the VGA display, large keyboard, 3G, and Pocket PC / Windows Mobile OS, for something that doesn't even have a caller display on the cover? But since you've got the M5000, let's look at Orange's own buy-line:-
"The Orange SPV M5000 is a 3G PDA that can be used to make and receive voice calls"
There you go. 3G PDA first, voice last. No attempt to call it a "phone", like Sony make no attempt to call the T610 a "PDA".
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Err... Now you are being silly. Who gets the revenue from 3G and GPRS usage?
... as a flagship model!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It might be flagship model, but it's a DATA centric device for business users, which is why the whole design is geared to using as it as a mini-laptop replacement.
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Indeed. There are plenty of other devices more suited if you need something more "Phone" like. Sounds to me like you just bought it because it was the most expensive, instead of what was right for your needs. That's hardly HTC's fault. :roll:
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ineedtoys - has the cheek to say I bought the most expensive toy with a username like that?!
javascript:emoticon(':?')
I'm not going to argue whether the primary function is a phone or mini-laptop/pda, etc etc
or whether a T610 is PDA or indeed a bacon sandwich or something...
As with any MULTI-FUNCTION device - they are simply different things to different people dont you think?
ineed, the title of this thread is "the biggest problem..."
I believe the fact that the phone function of the Universal is not what it should be makes it the biggest problem for me & I suspect quite a few others...
It's quite clear you don't agree with that.. I never made that statement to p*** you or anyone off... or feel the need to argue my case... it's my opinion... and essentially what I'm saying I suspect many would agree with.. However, you haven't yet joined in with the thread and offered your OWN view on what you believe is the biggest problem...??
So, in your view, what is the biggest problem with the Universal ??
@philtech44
I'm wth you - the Universal should do the basic functions of a cell/mobile phone at least as good as the T610 or a K750. A SIM free Universal is between $900 - $1000. For this kind of money you should be getting the best communications device. My daughter's free Moto v3X shows the gap in communication capability of the Universal - you see these are both 3G phones and the extra capacity of 3G improves voice calls, but not on the Universal!
jah said:
@philtech44
I'm wth you - the Universal should do the basic functions of a cell/mobile phone at least as good as the T610 or a K750. A SIM free Universal is between $900 - $1000. For this kind of money you should be getting the best communications device. My daughter's free Moto v3X shows the gap in communication capability of the Universal - you see these are both 3G phones and the extra capacity of 3G improves voice calls, but not on the Universal!
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My point exactly.. my crappy old T610's phone functions including bluetooth worked effortlessy well... my M5000 felt like a Nokia Cityman in comparison and this is wrong...
and yes - for a flagship 3G device.... well... I will say that out of the Universal and two baked bean cans connected via a piece of string... yes, the Universal wins... :lol:
sipat said:
I think one of the major issues here is that the PDA operating system is trying very hard to fit in with its parent, Windows XP. So, just as Outlook, MS Access etc struggle to work with vCard formats, so does the PDA. In this day and age, when even kids tend to have two mobiles (or two cell phone numbers), how can your Contacts database be limited to one mobile number but umpteen fields for landline voice/fax numbers.
Soon, at least in the UK, mobiles are going to overtake landlines (it may already have done so for private/residential users, I don't know).
As a Mac user, I can easily transfer numbers between the Mac, SE P910i and Nokia 9500, and all the mobile numbers for each contact come across (on the N9500 you have to just change the field def, which isn't a prob) but having transferred 600+ vCards to the M5000, I lost all primary mobile numbers and only got the second or third preference mobile across.
At the very least, you should be able to add/redefine fields in the Contacts database -- I've looked and can't find any info or facility for this. That is just one of the deficiencies of WinCE/WM5.
Actually, I'm hoping that now Apple has adopted Intel chips, one of these days they're going to announce a Mobie version of OS X -- now that would be something. I'm sure a lot of users would at least try it, and many of those would even migrate (I can dream, can't I?)
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yes sipat.. that is definitely another big problem
As far as Apple is concerned & being a Mac specialist myself, you could only imagine a OSX Mobile OS... simple, effective, robust and as far as connectivity & compatibility is concerned.. well we live to dream eh?
I'm sorry I don't agree. At the current point that technology stands you will not get an open OS multi-function device operating as well and as effeciently as a closed OS phone. Granted that Symbian may be more stable, but then it is the much older more experienced OS too.
The T610 has basically one job, it operates as a phone, using it's own software, which has all been written to work together at the expense of ignoring other possibilities.
The universal has an open OS which has to allow third parties to add software, that dosn't even exist yet. This open software is bound to be slower, it has to be, it has too many possibilities it has to consider.
Comparing the speed of a T610 and a universal is like comparing the Fuel economy of a Bicycle and a Jeep. They are 2 entirely different things.
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Funny how my Universal never drops call, bluetooth works perfectly for handsfree and GPS. I can't remember the last time I soft reset, and when I did it was only part of the installation of new software. It dosn't crash, freeze or run any slower then I'd expect. Why is this? Am I just incredibly lucky?
However I have been using PDA's for a long time, and have come at this device as a PDA with a phone built in, rather than the other way round. If people think a T610 is better, (and yes I did have one once). Then you have bought the completely wrong device with a Universal, because while your T610 may be faster, my Universal is providing so many more functions.
(EDIT): lol Wow, that wasn't intended to come out as such a rant.
Gajet said:
I'm sorry I don't agree. At the current point that technology stands you will not get an open OS multi-function device operating as well and as effeciently as a closed OS phone. Granted that Symbian may be more stable, but then it is the much older more experienced OS too.
The T610 has basically one job, it operates as a phone, using it's own software, which has all been written to work together at the expense of ignoring other possibilities.
The universal has an open OS which has to allow third parties to add software, that dosn't even exist yet. This open software is bound to be slower, it has to be, it has too many possibilities it has to consider.
Comparing the speed of a T610 and a universal is like comparing the Fuel economy of a Bicycle and a Jeep. They are 2 entirely different things.
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Funny how my Universal never drops call, bluetooth works perfectly for handsfree and GPS. I can't remember the last time I soft reset, and when I did it was only part of the installation of new software. It dosn't crash, freeze or run any slower then I'd expect. Why is this? Am I just incredibly lucky?
However I have been using PDA's for a long time, and have come at this device as a PDA with a phone built in, rather than the other way round. If people think a T610 is better, (and yes I did have one once). Then you have bought the completely wrong device with a Universal, because while your T610 may be faster, my Universal is providing so many more functions.
(EDIT): lol Wow, that wasn't intended to come out as such a rant.
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Firstly, nothing to be sorry about... BUT gajet do stop it!
Do yourself a big favour & dont try to turn my simple statement into a silly
HTC Universal Vs. Sony Ericsson T610 contest... that is not what I said!!
you've foolishly twisted my very SIMPLE point into something utterly ridiculous my friend!
Your comparison between bicycles, Jeeps and the like is also junk pal!!
Kindly go back to my original post and take it at FACE VALUE...
A phone is a phone. A PDA is a PDA.
A PDA with a phone is what it is and so is a Phone with a PDA...
the point is anything that calls itself a phone, whether or not integrated with a toaster or a kettle, PDA or surgically inserted somewhere interesting, should therefore function both properly and effectively, and with some degree of quality as a bleedin' phone!!!
Do you agree with that statement or not?
It's quite clear... the Universals performance as a phone is somewhat cr*ppy for todays technology - its a let down, no question about it. Could be & should be better!
I've compared only that function, to a phone that was designed 5 years ago, manufactured 4 years ago and released to the public thereafter.. and that FACT is my only point here in this thread...
Now as for your own personal experience of Universals, well might I suggest searching the forum for threads which cover the FACT that the Universal - for some of us - does drop calls, Bluetooth is temperamental, are forced to soft & hard reset, and so on... I mean why is the Universal forum so huge with 100's of 1000's of views in its history, with issues AND fixes abound?
But again I must stress, my personal view is the Universals phone function is cr*ppy compared to what it really should be... This is 2006... not 2001... if you dont agree lets see what phone performance will be like in HTC's next generation & equivalent of the Universal...
Do you think they will upgrade all the other functions and leave the phone as it is then?!
get me now??
philtech44 said:
IMHO
So T610 Vs. Universal?
...
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Actually it is exactly what you said.
And my points which you completely missed are if you are going to compare the Universal to other devices, it should be compared to it's peers, not to a completely different device. Compare the Universal to the other similar PDA/phone combos by HTC, a HP Ipaq phone edition, it would even be fair to compare against a Moto a1000, SE P910 etc
Of course these devices improve over time, my Universal is considerable better than my Blue Angel, which appears in turn to have been better than the original XDA range. So yes the next device will probably be better still, but then where on earth did you get the impression I ever thought otherwise.
Gajet said:
philtech44 said:
IMHO
So T610 Vs. Universal?
...
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Click to collapse
Actually it is exactly what you said.
And my points which you completely missed are if you are going to compare the Universal to other devices, it should be compared to it's peers, not to a completely different device. Compare the Universal to the other similar PDA/phone combos by HTC, a HP Ipaq phone edition, it would even be fair to compare against a Moto a1000, SE P910 etc
Of course these devices improve over time, my Universal is considerable better than my Blue Angel, which appears in turn to have been better than the original XDA range. So yes the next device will probably be better still, but then where on earth did you get the impression I ever thought otherwise.
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So I did!! errr... whoops!
But still it should still operate as a phone mate & do so well.. it is sold by mobile phone companies isn't it?
No I agree with you 100% there. However when I compare the Universal to other devices of similar functionality on the current market, then it comes out very well.
In fact where I hang out usually at 3g.co.uk, they compare the Universal against other 3g phones, (Which I do realise goes completely against my main point :roll: ), but the Universal still comes out very well.
Yes the universal could be better, (mainly speed wise), but at this current point in time it does very well.
I wish I could clone mine to pass around to all those having troubles, but my suspicion is that most troubles are generated when some tweaking, or installation of third party apps are involved, or more commonly when the damn phone companies insist on using their own versions of HTC's software, (O2 Active and the damn Orange homescreen for example).
Anyway all the above is purely my oppinion, I had no intention of getting into any personal arguements and hopefully we have come to an understanding here
Gajet said:
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
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Hi. I don't want to crank this up to another level, especially after the last post about coming to some understanding. Us Mac guys know that you can get quite emotionally attached to your gadjets, Gajet, but that statement above is so condescending!
I don't think you give people enough credit -- some may have bought their phone because it was the most expensive and is had good "showing-off/one-upmanship" value, but most of have acquired to manage our work and life. When you pay a premium price, you expect a premium product. Using your analogy, you wouldn't expect to have handle-bars instead of a steering wheel in your Jeep, eh?
In my opinion, it is fairer to compare the functionality of a PDA with similar functions on a desktop machine. and, my gripe is still about the Contacts database -- I want editable fields and true vCard compatibility. I don't think I'm expecting too much from what is supposedly a mature product (the Contacts bit is based on Windows for PC tech after all). As this is my first Win based mobile OS I'm still trying to sort out certain issues, but I understand that even moving data from/between supposedly similar or compatible PDAs is not straight forward.
Aaahh! Maybe Mac users are just spoiled silly, hey.
Everybody keeps talking about what the thing is and what should be, but this is not the reason i started this topic for. So i must repeat myself. Who can fix bluetooth problems? Microsoft. Who can fix radio problems? Microsoft. Who can fix performance problems? Microsoft. Who can fix basic applications problems? Microsoft. Who can fix data sync problems? Microsoft. So we totally depend on Microsoft and she can take all the time she wants.
Related
Hi all,
i read more and more people wanting to sell their brand new exec, BARELY USED... Are people disappointed by it and think it doesn't worth the money ???
I am really wondering what is wrong with it... and i don't have one yet, but i am thinking about getting one... now reading more and more bad reviews on it, dispointment and people selling it after less than a week of use... i am really hesitating to buy it, even though i ve waited it for many months !
What is your opinion about it and do you think it really worth 1000 € ??
Thanks,
Mike.
I would NEVER recommend it for a housewife, but if you are just a little bit tech savvy, AND have a weekend to spare setting it up according to guidance on these forums, it's great. If you do not, you could be extremely miserable with the speed and unacceptable bugs such as BT turning off.
I think a lot of it is people hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, £229 + £8 x 12 = £325 total outlay. People are selling them for upwards of £400 pretty much the same day with just about no risk and keeping a free 5mb/month sim card. Either that, or they just don't need a new handset and are taking advantage of the demand for Universals.
As a phone its no good for me just too fiddily, i use it as a data centre and pocket pc with a seperate phone, for this it is perfect
I think its a great little device. Don't get me wrong, if you expect it to have no bugs you will not be happy but as with all new technology, it will take time to iron them out.
In the meantime, I am happy to live with the minor glitches. It wont take long until the Exec is supported better (and also WM5) and this should be when this device comes into its own.
As for the functionality as a phone - I really am getting used to it
xiasma said:
I think a lot of it is people hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, £229 + £8 x 12 = £325 total outlay. People are selling them for upwards of £400 pretty much the same day with just about no risk and keeping a free 5mb/month sim card. Either that, or they just don't need a new handset and are taking advantage of the demand for Universals.
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Click to collapse
This is spot-on. That's exactly what a few people are doing. Sure there are some people who have been disappointed with theirs, but honestly, what were they expecting? Most people who are complaining are either newcomers to the PDA/Phone world, or they're installing every damn WM2003 software they've ever bought and killing their machines with incompatible software. IMHO
I couldn't ever personally justify €1000 for any phone/PDA device, but for €500 it is an excellent machine. I love mine. Perhaps I'm biased. Just remember that it's an early release of WM5 and there are a few bugs. They'll be fixed in time though and they're not fundamental IMHO.
@xiasma, which tariff is £8 per month? Can you purchase this online?
I agree with what's been said so far. If someone came to this even from a Nokia smartphone I think they could be disappointed, as they are phones first and pda/gadgets/whatever second whereas the Universal is more like a high-end pda with a phone that happens to be built in. Even coming from a non-phone PDA (as I did) takes a little getting used to imho, since I used to have a far more cavalier attitude to installing stuff on my ipaq whereas now with the Universal I need to consider "will people still be able to ring me if I install this shareware demo?". Stability and reliability is very important for a phone, but for a small portable computer I tend to think that features and what-can-I-install-next are key. These are almost mutually exclusive characteristics and so finding the right compromise is a fairly personal decision I think - although it will probably divide into those two camps.
Going off-topic a bit, it would be nice if there were a 'phone only' kind of safe mode on the Universal, so if you do get something buggy going on you can set it to phone-only mode until you get round to sorting the problems, safe in the knowledge that at least the phone will work.
What do you think?
jah said:
@xiasma, which tariff is £8 per month? Can you purchase this online?
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It's the Data 5 tariff - purchase from an O2 shop, not online. You maybe able to buy it over the 'phone.
I think people are after quick bucks as well, to me the Exec is buggy, not because of the device but rather the reliablities of WM5. Performance wise it's decent even with O2 active, my major issue is I can't get most of my most often used softwares to work properly in WM5.
Size wise, I was really surprised as it's not nearly as big as I originally imagined, it's only slightly bigger than my old IIs. I think couple ROM upgrades, I'd love this thing
I am glad you guys started this thread. I too want to purchase an HTC Universal, but was having second thoughts because of the bad comments I read about it.
I do have one question though, "Is it plague with soft resets?" How often do you have to perform a soft/hard reset?
First, my hypocrisy: I have an XDA Exec, I've let the opportunity go by to return it and I'm probably going to persevere.
Next, the rant...
I think it is a complete disgrace for this product to have been released as it currently is. It shouldn't be necessary to spend a weekend getting a consumer device up and running. The bugs in the software are not "kinks", they are key pieces of functionality that simply do not work. Microsoft, O2, Vodaphone would have picked up these within 1 day of normal operation without installing ANY other software and yet they release the product and charge you for it.
Here are some of my most obvious examples:
* The phone pad T9 entry method does not work. On a clean O2 active install, this works until the first soft reset and then no more. Using the corporate mode, it works for a while and then stops.
* Microsoft Voice command, which has a link for purchase displayed directly on the Windows Mobile 2005 MS website does not display contact information when dialing a contact.
* About the first thing you have to install is an app to properly close applications because the memory management is so poor that you're constantly having to soft reset, or go into settings and close all programs. Ok, perhaps not a bug, but surely within a day of using a beta of the device ANY MS employee could go "oh, well, I guess our backgrounding method of memory management doesn't work".
I have hard-reset my device many times and yes, it's possible to make it work provided you put enough attention into it, but it's supposed to be a productivity tool and yet it's taken many more hours to use than it's saved.
This is the kind of experience the world had to put up with when Windows 95 was launched and I thought Microsoft had finally reached a point where they were able to release decent software (like Windows XP), but clearly they're still happy to release rediculously low quality products.
What I do plan to do is to harrass O2 as much as possible regarding this. Make them wish they'd never sold the product because of what it's costing them to support. As MS now have OEM resellers carefully positioned between the end user and themselves perhaps doing this will eventually put pressure on MS to stop insulting us.
What's sad, is that they're doing it again - Palm have just decided to start running Windows Mobile, so it's only a matter of time until the Microsoft monopoly has been extended to PDAs as well. And the crazy thing is that this isn't because of it even being a nice product to use (bugs aside). How can MS (who have been developing software for such a long time) be so completely clueless when it comes to software design. Reading this site confirms that I'm by no means the only one complaining:
* Nice, expensive crystal clear screen, brand spanking new OS and web browser. Oh, you can't browse in 640 X 480. Never mind...
* No full screen terminal services. Never mind...
* Let's not bother with a task switcher. It's much easier to go through the menu every time.
* Why provide a decent file explorer, people will never use it.
Every time, the support community comes up with nice freeware apps that fill all the holes and on the next release of the OS, all the same holes are there. It's like MS lock all the app designers and developers in a room and don't let them near an end user.
Believe it or not, this post not from an old Microsoft hater, but I'm surely becoming a new one.
There, I'm done...
Dave
It is better than the BlueAngel!!!
I received mine in from O2 the other day and from just running Win2005 and included software, this device really seems to be an improvement over my MDAIII, which I have never yet been able to work solidly in a years's time of playing with it. The build quality is very good. However, my 2 primary 3rd party applications - Goodlink push email and Tom Tom Navigator 5 - do not intall and work. I have been told that the Tom Tom will work if the CABs are transferred in manually, but I have not yet tried that. My Dictionary and Bible programs installed and work fine from their SD chips. But the only thing now is to wait for everybody to tweak apps to Microsoft 2005. This device should start to take off after that starts to occur. However, once HP with their iPaq 6515 upgraades to 2005, then that should be major competition to HTC - even though HTC makes those as well :lol:
There are absolutely, catagorically, 100% certainly, no arguements, LESS BUGS in my brand new WM5 JasJar than any WM2003SE device I've owned previously.
I agree with some points made though, software which works on WM5 is few and far between, and even if you find some which says it works, it may still cause problems...Look at SPB Pocket Plus which slows the JJ to a crawl if you put a storage card meter on your today screen.
My advice is to be patient and accept that because you've bought the first WM5 device, there will be some time to wait until there's software available that's not only "Compatible with...", but actually "Designed for..." WM5.
Very pleased I didn't own a WM2003 device older device then. It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
In terms of other applications, I completely accept that installing old apps on WM2005 may cause problems. I'm refering to the product "out the box".
daveb1976 said:
It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
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Click to collapse
What "doesn't work"?
Everything that came with my JasJar works perfectly.
Your t9 problem is not something I've heard anyone mention before. If you've done a hard reset and it still doesn't work, I'd send it back to O2 and get them to replace it?
I've already taken it back twice and it's been swapped out both times. There are a number of people on this forum who have had the same problem. Here's one posting.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=30591&highlight=
I guess it's possible that if I were to flash to the imate ROM it might work, but then I lose my warrantee.
TBH, I disagree with just about EVERY point on your list
I'm certainly not aware of glaring bugs or omissions. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm using an MDA Pro - perhaps the XDA Exec's extra software is the cause for most gripes.
daveb1976 said:
* The phone pad T9 entry method does not work. On a clean O2 active install, this works until the first soft reset and then no more. Using the corporate mode, it works for a while and then stops.
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Click to collapse
I hate T9 so I've never tried it on the Universal. Then again, with a full keyboard, why would I?
* Microsoft Voice command, which has a link for purchase displayed directly on the Windows Mobile 2005 MS website does not display contact information when dialing a contact.
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Click to collapse
I use voice command all the time and it works PERFECTLY for me. That's well beyond my expectations. Now I can't say I've noticed your issue with contacts, but then again, when I use voice command it's when I'm not really using the screen or keyboard.
* About the first thing you have to install is an app to properly close applications because the memory management is so poor that you're constantly having to soft reset, or go into settings and close all programs. Ok, perhaps not a bug, but surely within a day of using a beta of the device ANY MS employee could go "oh, well, I guess our backgrounding method of memory management doesn't work".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally and utterly disagree
First of all, MS are trying to get people away from traditional Windows thinking of starting and stopping applications. They want to give the perception of everything just always being there and ready. This wasn't an easy decision for them, but I believe it was the right one. OK, for all us techies and PC-savvy types, yeah, we know what's going on in memory. But lots of consumers (your mum, for example) don't. And this is actually a behavior of the APPLICATIONS, not of Windows Mobile. Take a look at the developer's guidelines and you'll see.
Also, if you want to *terminate* an application that was not designed to be terminated using the (X) button, go to Settings, Memory, Running Programs. You can close any or all applications there. And that's been part of Windows Mobile since at least 2002, if not sooner.
I have hard-reset my device many times and yes, it's possible to make it work provided you put enough attention into it, but it's supposed to be a productivity tool and yet it's taken many more hours to use than it's saved.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's your experience, but so far removed from mine it's untrue! Then again, I've installed almost nothing extra on my Universal.
[snip]
* Nice, expensive crystal clear screen, brand spanking new OS and web browser. Oh, you can't browse in 640 X 480. Never mind...
* No full screen terminal services. Never mind...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, I'm in 100% agreement on these two.
:evil: :evil:
* Let's not bother with a task switcher. It's much easier to go through the menu every time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See my comment about Settings/memory/Running programs. You can use this as a task switcher too. But the idea really is to discourage this kind of Windows NT/XP mindset.
* Why provide a decent file explorer, people will never use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another brave decision for MS is to try to make files easier for consumers to understand. The idea is
"I don't really understand file systems. Why can't I keep all my documents together? In fact, why do I even need to know where my documents are kept? I just want my spreadsheets to be presented to me when I go to Excel; I want my pictures to be presented to me when I go to picture viewer; etc"
MS had a stab at this with Windows 95 and "My Documents". They have abandoned this in Windows Vista in favour or something more like Windows Mobile's "show you what you need when you need it". All these utilities really will become obsolete for all but the most techie users. My companies products are following the same ideology in desktop and mobile software.
sub69 said:
daveb1976 said:
It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What "doesn't work"?
Everything that came with my JasJar works perfectly.
Your t9 problem is not something I've heard anyone mention before. If you've done a hard reset and it still doesn't work, I'd send it back to O2 and get them to replace it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The T9 PhonePad bug is described in other threads on this forum and I've found that my device has the same problem. However, I don't personally find this in any way restrictive since the Universal has ...umm... a full, usable, hardware keyboard.
All these PDA/phone machines have been best after several experiments with their configuration. I did a hard reset this morning so that I cleaned off all my experimental applications' legacies and now I'm running trusted, tested apps that work well and bring huge positive benefits.
However, people who just want a machine to work out of the box will find Microsoft's core applications are crap and empty of features. I fully agree with daveb1976 about that. I disagree that they're particularly buggy though.
Fortunately I (and many others on these forums) actually enjoy messing about with the configuration and tweaking the machines to get them working 100% the way we want. It's part of the pleasure of owning them IMHO. Not everybody will share this pleasure, though, and so some frustration is understandable.
SiliconS said:
However, people who just want a machine to work out of the box will find Microsoft's core applications are crap and empty of features. I fully agree with daveb1976 about that. I disagree that they're particularly buggy though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I completely disagree. In fact, of almost ALL the 100s of computers I've used and owned, I'd say that it is less true of the MDA Pro than it is any other computer (maybe except the Z88)
Fortunately I (and many others on these forums) actually enjoy messing about with the configuration and tweaking the machines to get them working 100% the way we want. It's part of the pleasure of owning them IMHO. Not everybody will share this pleasure, though, and so some frustration is understandable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll agree with all of that though
Hi All,
This phone seems to be developing more problems every day! Perhaps it is because I have loaded Voice Command 1.6 but it now randomly (or so it seems) shuts down bluetooth without a warning so that I can't receive calls on my headset.
Add the screen alignment issue which I tried to fix unsuccessfully with the business card, still no bluetooth for voice dialing with VC 1.6 and the following and I wonder is it worth it at all?
Only some names are displayed when calls come in. Many callers only have number displayed even though they are in the phone book.
Phone is often very slow although I don't have a lot of programs loaded. Soft reset seems to help but I haven't tested it extensively. Most annoying is dialing as a 1 second lag while dialing numbers becomes very irritating after a while.
I can't get it to synchronise with my laptop even though both are enabled and it goes some way towards it.
I had my first handheld nearly ten years ago. They really haven't moved on enough in that time I think. Is it acceptable for a company to put out a product that costs megabucks but still requires one to be a geek and spend hours on the net finding solutions to all the problems on it?
broadband155 said:
Hi All,
This phone seems to be developing more problems every day! Perhaps it is because I have loaded Voice Command 1.6 but it now randomly (or so it seems) shuts down bluetooth without a warning so that I can't receive calls on my headset.
Add the screen alignment issue which I tried to fix unsuccessfully with the business card, still no bluetooth for voice dialing with VC 1.6 and the following and I wonder is it worth it at all?
Only some names are displayed when calls come in. Many callers only have number displayed even though they are in the phone book.
Phone is often very slow although I don't have a lot of programs loaded. Soft reset seems to help but I haven't tested it extensively. Most annoying is dialing as a 1 second lag while dialing numbers becomes very irritating after a while.
I can't get it to synchronise with my laptop even though both are enabled and it goes some way towards it.
I had my first handheld nearly ten years ago. They really haven't moved on enough in that time I think. Is it acceptable for a company to put out a product that costs megabucks but still requires one to be a geek and spend hours on the net finding solutions to all the problems on it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neil
Whilst there are elements of truth in what you say, I think the lesson here is - if you want stability and reliability and don't have the time for patience or the "developers" instinct, then steer clear of cutting edge technology or the latest gasgets combining a variety of technologies.
I could certainly say I'd be guaranteed a more reliable simple and straightforward phone if I used my old nokia 3100. I would probably say a paper notebook would be quicker on occasion than whipping out the old PDA. If I want to do something on Excel, I'd be better advised to wait 'til I get to the office and so on. BUT for a mix of entertainment and a range of features to help me out from time to time, along with the enjoyment of trying out new things, I'd go for Hermes. In 6 months things will have moved on again, many things will have been sorted out for Hermes but some new gadget will be out next season along with a whole new set of issues. You either enjoy this and don't expect things to ever achieve perfection, or you opt out of the technology race. Change it seems to me is now so rapid, many will question whether it's worth buying the latest technolgy cos before it's even on the shelves it'll have been superceded by the next pre-release models. I can see the rate of customer disatisfaction with new technology rising and rising as companies are forced to release things far too early in order not to loose the superfast moving market. Sky digital being a case in point in the UK with thousands of digital boxes being returned as not functioning. Some folks now being on their 5th or 6th digibox already in the space of a couple of months.
Nuf said
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I hear you and I do agree to an extent. The problem I have with it is that it isn't only guys like me who buy these devices. I am somewhere in the middle, between an early adopter and a neophyte. I know lots of guys who are neophytes and have bought these things over the years. They don't come with a geek warning nor do they offer any sort of solution in many cases to the operational problems. The guy who buys a device like this does so because he thinks it will work. It is enough of a challenge to figure out how to use the basic functions. He isn't interested in becoming a technology guru in order to solve the problems.
As I said before, I bought my first handheld a long time ago. (HP 620LX) While the market moves on very quickly, I believe there is still a place for mature technology. The 620 was buggy then and the TyTN is buggy now. What about a device that does the fundamental things well? Perhaps they are all over the place and I bought the wrong one. I still think the screen alignment issue is unforgiveable though.
I agree with what Mike said about staying out of the firing line or the cutting edge as he put it. I believe I am more neophyte than most people here, yet I buy into these things for the enjoyment of having to find solutions to the now expected problems with cutting edge all-singing all-dancing devices...or maybe I'm just a masochist?
broadband155 said:
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I hear you and I do agree to an extent. The problem I have with it is that it isn't only guys like me who buy these devices. I am somewhere in the middle, between an early adopter and a neophyte. I know lots of guys who are neophytes and have bought these things over the years. They don't come with a geek warning nor do they offer any sort of solution in many cases to the operational problems. The guy who buys a device like this does so because he thinks it will work. It is enough of a challenge to figure out how to use the basic functions. He isn't interested in becoming a technology guru in order to solve the problems.
As I said before, I bought my first handheld a long time ago. (HP 620LX) While the market moves on very quickly, I believe there is still a place for mature technology. The 620 was buggy then and the TyTN is buggy now. What about a device that does the fundamental things well? Perhaps they are all over the place and I bought the wrong one. I still think the screen alignment issue is unforgiveable though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I certainly agree with you regarding screen alignment problem, that's unforgivably poor design as is the loose stylus and loose keyboard.
Mike
mikechannon said:
Neil
Whilst there are elements of truth in what you say, I think the lesson here is - if you want stability and reliability and don't have the time for patience or the "developers" instinct, then steer clear of cutting edge technology or the latest gasgets combining a variety of technologies.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uh, no. No, no, no!
Sorry, that's not how it works. Nope! No siree!
You sell a device on the open market, and it had better be reliable, bug free, and within a certain reliability matrix. A lot of devices are falling outside that range, and the manufacturers are finding themselves in court as a result.
For example, Palm is currently in the middle of a class action lawsuit, over the poor build quality of their Treo 600 and 650s.
Caveat emptor? Sure, but only to a point. Every single democracy in the world has some form of judicially established, and in many cases legislatively established, understanding of quality as a requirement.
BRad Barnett said:
Uh, no. No, no, no!
Sorry, that's not how it works. Nope! No siree!
You sell a device on the open market, and it had better be reliable, bug free, and within a certain reliability matrix. A lot of devices are falling outside that range, and the manufacturers are finding themselves in court as a result.
For example, Palm is currently in the middle of a class action lawsuit, over the poor build quality of their Treo 600 and 650s.
Caveat emptor? Sure, but only to a point. Every single democracy in the world has some form of judicially established, and in many cases legislatively established, understanding of quality as a requirement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know what you are saying but it IS what is happening as you acknowledge (despite the "Sorry, that's not how it works. Nope! No siree!") and indeed there may be quite a few legal cases brought as a result - but note it still carries on so it is the way it works. In fact, I believe things will get worse with the exponentially increasing speed of technological development.
I stand by my advice stay away from the leading edge devices if it's stability you want and I don't think any amount of cases brought in the courts will change this. I wholeheartedly agree with you as regards any hardware issues - Screen alignment, loose this and loose that, but software has always started out buggy and developed and to some extent, at least ,for those here that's part of the challenge - even if I don't say enjoyment!!
Mike
I've seen the bluetooth stack shutdown issue on my TyTN too. I'm currently testing the 1.35 TyTN ROM to see if it fixes this problem. In my case it was related to using the bluetooth stack for other purposes (bt keyboard, A2DP). It seemed to me that my car handsfree would work just fine until I used bt for one of the above then I'd see the random bt radio off issue. Sometimes this would even happen while driving after a successful pairing with my car.
Here is a list of features for the iPhone,
* The mobile version of OS X or whatever it is the iPhone runs takes up 700MB
* There's no way to cut, copy, or paste text!
* No A2DP support.
* Sorry, music can't be used as a ringtone
* On a PC the iPhone syncs with Outlook for calendars AND addresses
* It supports Exchange 'in some capacity'
* Document file reading -- but not editing -- for PDF, Word, and Excel (only).
* Adobe Flash support is officially out. It's just not in the browser.
* No kind of embedded video support.
* It will take snaps, but won't record video.
* Oh, and no MMS.
* No voice dialing, either.
* Contact groups can't be emailed as contact lists.
* Apple says between 300-400 charges the iPhone will lose battery capacity -- you'll send it in and get the cell replaced for a fee.
* Apple will be rolling out periodic updates
* Voice quality is said to be good -- not great.
Aren't you glad you bought an Athena not an iPhone?
I look forward to laughing at iPhone owners. Now I have nothing against apple, but this thing costs a bomb and has half the features.
Athena owner meets iPhone owner,
"hey, thats a pretty phone. Can you do blah with it?"
"No the iPhone wont do blah. Ooh, thats a huge 5"screen you've got, wow! I wish my iPhone could do that! AND that, and that! Hold on, battery is dead. No I cant replace it, no spare. I have to post it back to apple now."
I think you might have missed out:
"Wow a touchflow screen - shame the resolution is so low....."
It could be worse
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Click to collapse
Absolutely. And it would be hard to make the Athena better...
Of course, there's always something that could have been better, but compared to other phones or the iPhone, the Athena is miles ahead.
Moskus said:
Absolutely. And it would be hard to make the Athena better...
Of course, there's always something that could have been better, but compared to other phones or the iPhone, the Athena is miles ahead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And only twice as expensive, too...
Give the Athena OS and hardware the sort of R&D Apple put into making their stuff work - but instead of cutting back on what it does, make it ALL work properly
Its an interesting first attempt, but they've got a fair way to go before it becomes a 'smart' device, rather than just a sexy phone. No 3G, unable to update OTA from Itunes, a fairly 'closed' platform (until people defeat that ) puts me off this 1st generation phone. I read today of rumors that 3G will be fixed for the European Release (via Yodafone), but the extended contract lifetimes with Mobile providers is very offputting.
I'm gonna wait till gen2 or even gen3 to see if the phone becomes 'smart' enough to warrant the screen size and how it pans out with the apple-chefs or the true apple upgrades. And I've never bought into the apple form over function that they've adopted since imac days.
Im afraid a stylish device with eye candy transition effects, just doesn't justify the large costs, restrictions and appaling array of non supported features for me.
I blame Microsoft and the manufactuers who make windows Mobile devices for their distinct lack of advertising, the cost of which is an array of people happy to call this the "god phone" despite much better and affordable and vastly less restricted technology being out there. With the exception of its multitouch interface its comparatively using the technology specs of a Windows 2003SE device.
To Apples credit though millions of people getting ready to sign up for two years to get one of these and tolerate an "activation fee" so I don't know what category to give them the thumbs up in, but they have obviously done something right.
Although I am still shocked that such a media driven device lacks the capacity to set mp3 ringtones, that should be on the top of apples first update to fix.
I think us geeks tend to forget that most people don't care of what is going on behind the eye candy. They want to use a stylish and easy-to-use phone.
For instance, go and show your parents, or any people in their forties-fifties who are not technology freaks, the iPhone and a Windows Mobile device, let them "play" with it for their use (i.e., place and receive calls, and maybe some SMS), and in the end ask them to choose one of the devices. I can already guess their choice....
In my opinion most of use are too much technology-centered, and find it hard to believe that Apple tries to center the device on its users...
Why did the first iPod have such a great success, when many competitors offered a screen for viewing videos, an FM tuner and voice recording for a lesser price?
Just my two cents (and anyway this is an eternal debate, so please don't start the usual flame war )
Silviu
RichardKAthena said:
And only twice as expensive, too...
Give the Athena OS and hardware the sort of R&D Apple put into making their stuff work - but instead of cutting back on what it does, make it ALL work properly
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it's twice as expensive, but you should compare the iPhone to the HTC Hermes or the new HTC Kaiser.
Does iPhone support UMTS/HSDPA? Nope
Does iPhone support Exchange/Push Email? Nope
Does iPhone support any Remote Desktop apps? Nope
Does iPhone support user-created apps? Nope
Does iPhone support any 3. party software at all? Nope (at least not yet)
Can I then even use this phone? Nope...
Moskus said:
Yes it's twice as expensive, but you should compare the iPhone to the HTC Hermes or the new HTC Kaiser.
Does iPhone support UMTS/HSDPA? Nope
Does iPhone support Exchange/Push Email? Nope
Does iPhone support any Remote Desktop apps? Nope
Does iPhone support user-created apps? Nope
Does iPhone support any 3. party software at all? Nope (at least not yet)
Can I then even use this phone? Nope...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, in fact, you want a mobile computer, not a mobile telephone
There's a very big clue in the name - iPhone. phone. Not iReallytinycomputerthatevenpeoplethatdon'tlikeAppleseemobsessedwithbecausedeepdowntheyknowApple'scomputershavethebestuserexperienceandtheyallwantitinapocketsizeddevice.
Sure, Apple could make a device like the Athena. And like the Athena, it would cost more than a MacBook, and like most UMPCs, it would sell in tiny amounts compared to the easy to engineer, wide-market appeal MacBook.
RichardKAthena said:
So, in fact, you want a mobile computer, not a mobile telephone
There's a very big clue in the name - iPhone. phone. Not iReallytinycomputerthatevenpeoplethatdon'tlikeAppleseemobsessedwithbecausedeepdowntheyknowApple'scomputershavethebestuserexperienceandtheyallwantitinapocketsizeddevice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I get along with my other devices as the Qtek 9100, HTC TyTN, S620 and MTeoR.
The Pocket PCs support most of the points I specified, and the smartphones does at least support Push Email and 3. party software.
So, to me and I guess other users that likes how Smartphones powered by either Windows Mobile or Symbian, the iPhone won't do it. If you're a "standard users" that actually like those "simple" phones from Nokia or Sony Ericsson, the iPhone might suit you.
Digital.Diablo said:
Its an interesting first attempt, but they've got a fair way to go before it becomes a 'smart' device, rather than just a sexy phone. No 3G, unable to update OTA from Itunes, a fairly 'closed' platform (until people defeat that ) puts me off this 1st generation phone. I read today of rumors that 3G will be fixed for the European Release (via Yodafone), but the extended contract lifetimes with Mobile providers is very offputting.
I'm gonna wait till gen2 or even gen3 to see if the phone becomes 'smart' enough to warrant the screen size and how it pans out with the apple-chefs or the true apple upgrades. And I've never bought into the apple form over function that they've adopted since imac days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apple stuff never gets good until third generation.
Apple II - 4K-16K typical, upper case only.
Apple II Plus - 48K, shift-key mod...
Apple //e - lower case, better keyboard, 128K with extended 80 column card.
Macintosh - 128K RAM, 400K floppy - essentially useless.
Macintosh 512K/e - 400 or 800K floppy, still not upgradeable at all.
Macintosh Plus - 1-4Mb via SIMM expansion, 800K Floppy, SCSI.
iMac - first gen, I'd argue, was the 233MHz Bondi range. Unreliable and slow.
Then we got the SE types and colours. They were better.
And then I consider the eMac to be the true 3rd gen iMac - G4, flat CRT - and they were pretty good. I used one as my main office machine for a couple of years, but I've now got a 24" Intel iMac which is near silent and has a beautiful screen for the money. (My G5 runs dual 20" cinema displays).
iPod has been a little different, but I think the 3rd gen iPod got it right - I don't like the click wheel as much as the scroll wheel and 4 button layout. Harder to use in the car and not illuminated.
I really hope Vodafone don't get the iPhone deal. Their current data plans are useless.
Moskus said:
Well I get along with my other devices as the Qtek 9100, HTC TyTN, S620 and MTeoR.
The Pocket PCs support most of the points I specified, and the smartphones does at least support Push Email and 3. party software.
So, to me and I guess other users that likes how Smartphones powered by either Windows Mobile or Symbian, the iPhone won't do it. If you're a "standard users" that actually like those "simple" phones from Nokia or Sony Ericsson, the iPhone might suit you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bingo! That's precisely the market Jobs wants. This is "simple phone" with balls, not smartphone. This is "SE Walkman phone" with a UI that doesn't make you want to smash the handset and enough storage to actually hold some music out of the box.
Look at my signature. What do I use? I choose to use WM devices and have done for a decade; I was using smartphones whilst most of the people on here were still in nappies figuratively speaking (I used to use a lashup of datacard and Windows CE handheld, then the Nokia 9000 came out). I love these devices; my Ameo is nicknamed "The Guide" because it really is like the Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy - connected to the sub-ether net, access to all the information you can imagine, entertaining, communicative - it's a great device.
iPhone doesn't suit me. But I'm fully aware of the market that it is aiming for and I think that constantly harping on about how it isn't a good competitor to WM devices, or lacks x features, is really silly; if the iPhone doesn't do what you want, don't buy one, especially if an existing product does do what you want. It really does seem to be that everyone WANTS an iPhone, but can't justify it and feels the need to complain
Which for Apple, is fantastic. OMGWANT! is exactly what they want people to do with their products, and that people feel compelled to post about what it doesn't have and why it is no good for them is a clear indication that they really wish it DID do all these things, so they could have one.
I think I own about 100 computers currently and 5 or 6 phones. If I want iPhone I'll have one anyway, but since it's only got 8GB, it won't replace my 80GB iPod as a music player - it'd be a whole extra device with a frustrating inability to cart all my music, thus ensuring I have to choose some to keep on it, and with no reason to use it instead of my Ameo.
And that's just fine by me, because the Ameo, flawed as it is, is still pretty damn good.
I'm intrigued to see how the OMGIWO (Oh my Gawd, I want one) effect lasts with iphone. Initially when the pod launched, it had this effect, but these days, every joe and his mate's got one, so there's nothing interesting to see when you get it out in public.
However, I suspect my Ameo will be pulling the crowds for a couple of years to come! Only today did I have a fella asking me all about it, and when I went through the spec's he nearly wet himself. HTC/T-mobile can probably chalk up another sale!
Digital.Diablo said:
I'm intrigued to see how the OMGIWO (Oh my Gawd, I want one) effect lasts with iphone. Initially when the pod launched, it had this effect, but these days, every joe and his mate's got one, so there's nothing interesting to see when you get it out in public.
However, I suspect my Ameo will be pulling the crowds for a couple of years to come! Only today did I have a fella asking me all about it, and when I went through the spec's he nearly wet himself. HTC/T-mobile can probably chalk up another sale!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I got my Ameo, I ended up with my girlfriend buying one, two mates getting them, and about four more wanting them but not having the cash/being stuck on contract.
iPods are still good, but they're a commodity device now. I replace mine every year as long as there is a significant/useful upgrade; I pass the old one on to someone, though my 20GB one needed a new battery (and was then killed by a third-party USB/Firewire charging lead that also blew the Firewire bus on my G5 >_<)
Phones always attract more attention as a lekking device (look it up ). iPhone will do well for that, I think, and the tactile user interface will go a long way.
RichardKAthena said:
lekking
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Click to collapse
A lek is a gathering of males, of certain animal species, for the purposes of competitive mating display.
Sounds like Scottish version of what we say (In Jest) "Right, lets all get our c..ks out and start waving them around." Your's is more 'polite' though.
The one thing that the WM5 needs is better out of the box skins. I've installed a black one (ying/yang I think) from this forum and it pee's all over the out of the box ones from MicroT-Mobilesoft. I'm not buying into the hype I'm afraid. And I think there does need to be a better explanation of the iphone NOT being a PDA/smartphone, just a smart-looking phone. Just out of interest, am I correct in remembering that my Ex's pink ipod-mini had a basic personal organiser function - A calendar with reminders?
I agree with much of what has been said - the Ifyyphone is aimed at a different market. Therefore...
Moskus said:
Does iPhone support Exchange/Push Email? Nope
Does iPhone support any Remote Desktop apps? Nope
Does iPhone support user-created apps? Nope
Does iPhone support any 3. party software at all? Nope (at least not yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...these are all fine - an Iphoney doesn't care about these things
BUT
Moskus said:
Does iPhone support UMTS/HSDPA? Nope
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is unforgivable these days.
Digital.Diablo said:
A lek is a gathering of males, of certain animal species, for the purposes of competitive mating display.
Sounds like Scottish version of what we say (In Jest) "Right, lets all get our c..ks out and start waving them around." Your's is more 'polite' though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's true, though - you see how people are with their mobiles. Showing them around, having the latest models, the best features. Sometimes the most bizarre models get to be desirable - that unremarkable thing Panasonic/someone else sold that was the "Beckham Phone" for example. The Ameo is one HELL of a lekking device, but it suffers the same problem as my car does - gotta explain it. If I wanted to pull 'birds' as my normal peer group goes for (filthy goffick type here, I'm afraid), then the RX8 doesn't get a look in compared to a Focus ST, because the ST is loud, familiar and known to be quick. The RX8 has a bloody Wankel FFS. Sure, when someone gets in it and you boot it, there's this look of comprehension that kicks in, but on the road, it's a vaguely flash, odd sounding car.
Can't use it to pull if you have to get nerdy. Unless you like nerdy girls. In which case, well, my gf bought herself an Ameo after seeing mine. Says it all, I think
(also, oddly enough, she's in Birmingham. I'm going to have to listen out for that phrase now )
The one thing that the WM5 needs is better out of the box skins. I've installed a black one (ying/yang I think) from this forum and it pee's all over the out of the box ones from MicroT-Mobilesoft. I'm not buying into the hype I'm afraid. And I think there does need to be a better explanation of the iphone NOT being a PDA/smartphone, just a smart-looking phone. Just out of interest, am I correct in remembering that my Ex's pink ipod-mini had a basic personal organiser function - A calendar with reminders?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the messaging app (at least the one on the Ameo, as they're apparently different on other devices like the Treo 750w) needs a lot of work, and the preferences panels are horrid, they look like they were drawn in Visual Basic by an NC Computing Student. A bad one. But yes, better skins go a long way towards fixing the crude look and feel.
iPods-with-displays have address book and calendar synchronisation, no editing (I think, the key to the PDA paradigm), and of course read-only notes.
3G?
http://www.newswireless.net/index.cfm/article/3466
As someone who works in the school system here in the US, I've used many Apple products over the years. One thing all of the Apple devices have in common that I have used is that they are too restrictive. They are all closed systems. I want to make choices, not have them made for me. I'm not some simple idiot that can't make my own decisions. This is the main reason I won't be buying an iPhone. Frankly I'm not that happy with Windows either (it's heading too much in this direction as well). I prefer Linux and I would like to see it show up on more phones.
There are some really nice things about the iPhone, but as long as Apple keeps being restrictive, I won't be using their products.
Pyrofer
Actually I don't care what you think, I have all the different devices that I wish, so its just another " mobile experience". And you don't have base to judge that (only specs to compare)
For me it's better have an Iphone that a lot of Windows Mobile Devices (most of them are EQUAL) I'm saying that because I have both...
It's very sad limited people without curiosity and criteria to evaluate other platforms, It just like Linux (opensource) people that ignore Microsoft innovation products, just like You do with Apple.
Thanks god I have money to spend in shinny new gadgets...
Has anyone ever thought about developing a face detection software program for Diamond/Pro which could act as another security feature to protect our phones? Maybe a good idea. Opinions about this as well.
The idea is good. But just thinking it may require a lot of resources to run this application and drain out battery easily. It is good for TP, but not TD
johnp68 said:
Has anyone ever thought about developing a face detection software program for Diamond/Pro which could act as another security feature to protect our phones? Maybe a good idea. Opinions about this as well.
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Very good idea！But I thought it's hard to realize~
omegasc said:
Very good idea！But I thought it's hard to realize~
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I have been doing some searches and software is there for Mobile Phones but as yet not for pocket PC's that I can see. I notice the Nokia N96 on sale through 3 mobile Australia has it in its specs. Not sure how much space it would take up but I am sure that a phone with expandable memory (Unfortunately the Diamond doesn't have it) would definately be able to use it and personally I could not see the software taking up over 1gb of memory so the Diamond should be ok. Facial recognition is now available on Laptops running Vista so I am hoping that Windows Mobile 7 has it as part of the update when it comes out although I would like it prior to 2010 when WM7 gets released.
not really diamond specific. youd be better off suggesting in general software creation forum
Brendo said:
not really diamond specific. youd be better off suggesting in general software creation forum
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Maybe it could have but as the Diamond and Pro appear to be more technologically advanced compared to previous HTC Phones (obviously due to being newer) I would expect this latest technology would be more compatible to these phones.
They'd not only steal your phone but cut off your head as well in order to use the phone.
sjaak21 said:
They'd not only steal your phone but cut off your head as well in order to use the phone.
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I suppose its the same worldwide, but I know in Australia Mobile Phones are one of the main items of theft from a person and yes unfortunately violence accompanies many of them. Haven't come accross any heads been cut off yet here as yet but knowing society it wouldn't unfortunately surprise me if it did happen one day. I do believe though that we need to make it less enticing to steal our expensive phones. I know here the HTC PRO cost around $1300 outright or $32 a month if on a phone plan over 24 months equaling $768 which is a bit cheaper but then you are stuck with the one phone company regardless. Even if your phone got stolen you lose the dead money regardless so why not make it as least enticing as possible.
I think it is very good idea, there need not to be battery drain, you can activate recognition for example on access to Contacts or message store
If you are the kind of person who gets emotionally attached to the gadgets you buy, please stop reading this post.
I'm not trying to start an inflamed discussion about which is the best device or manufacturer.
I’m not an Apple fan, in fact, I hate being “Apple locked” and that’s one of the main reasons I’ve bought the Leo after owning an Eten x500, a Kaiser, a Blackstone and finally, an iPhone 3GS.
I could go over and over describing the differences and the pros and cons of each device but I won’t. I’ll just try to tell you guys a few things we don’t have to accept.
We don’t have to accept …
the endless steps (gold card, hardSPL, regEdit, dictionary hacks, you name it) needed to get the phone speaking your language. You just have to say: I want “THAT” system language and “THAT” input language and that’s it. That’s how it’s done on the iPhone. And I’m not talking 3 or 4 languages. I’m saying over 30 different languages and oh, you also have voice control on YOUR language. You don’t need to hack Voice Command…
an SMS conversation that gets all messages out of order (doesn’t HTC know how to do time calculations?)
a Gigahert processor which can’t smoothly scroll a web page. I know it’s probably due to bad Opera coding but… have you ever scrolled an iPhone Safari?
a whole bunch of bad designed apps which you can’t effectively control / interface with because Windows Mobile programmers really don’t seem to realize that “user friendlier” is better. Have you ever used a same App on both platforms? Take Trapster for example (It’s available at Micrsoft app store). The windows mobile version of it makes me feel sorry for the programmer while the iPhone version feels very nice. Of course this is not the only example…
a lot of small bugs on the first ROM. Apple got it right on the first and they had never (ever) built a phone before! How many phones will HTC have to make before they get a stock ROM right? The small things are often the most annoying...
I could go on but there is something I realized that made me feel really hopeless (yes, I would really like to like a Windows phone). While HTC (and other manufacturers) keeps on launching device after device in a short time frame and thus creating new bugs and issues to deal with, Apple keeps on improving its one and only iPhone OS, for its one iPhone device (ok, different versions but very similar) which keeps getting better and better.
While iPhone developers have to deal with interface and compatibility issues for 3 very similar devices, a Windows Mobile developer has to deal with hundreds of them, some very poorly designed and a few very good (like Leo) but in the end, there is no way to develop a very good app for so many devices without a huge effort (and cost). Also, developing an App exclusively for one Windows phone wouldn’t be cost effective as a single model doesn’t represent a large enough consumer market.
Apple, with the iPhone, didn’t create a device as we are used to. Instead, they created a product with a long roadmap, mature SDK, sufficient market share, providing the necessary ecosystem for developers all around the world to make it even better.
It won’t be possible for any manufacturer, using any OS, to compete with such a mature product if they don’t realize it’s not a device we need. It’s a product.
Sadly, I’m going back to my 3GS… (god I hate iTunes…)
fmcastro said:
a lot of small bugs on the first ROM. Apple got it right on the first and they had never (ever) built a phone before! How many phones will HTC have to make before they get a stock ROM right? The small things are often the most annoying...
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Couldn't agree more on that.. Actually some people believed that HTC guys were deaf to provide us with such a loud distorted audio quality. I can't forgive HTC for the SMS bug.. I can't load all my SMS, device becomes really really slow and laggy.. How come they did not run a proper test to ensure their HTC Messaging application was working fine with dozens of SMS? This is really unprofessional. What where they busy with? The weather animation?
HTC support will contact me today to collect some symptoms and bugs I found but they did NOT ( as they claimed ).
Hopefully a hotfix will be available ASAP.
Xeon said:
Couldn't agree more on that.. Actually some people believed that HTC guys were deaf to provide us with such a loud distorted audio quality. I can't forgive HTC for the SMS bug.. I can't load all my SMS, device becomes really really slow and laggy.. How come they did not run a proper test to ensure their HTC Messaging application was working fine with dozens of SMS? This is really unprofessional. What where they busy with? The weather animation?
HTC support will contact me today to collect some symptoms and bugs I found but they did NOT ( as they claimed ).
Hopefully a hotfix will be available ASAP.
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Well, one thing we can safely assume by now is that no one at HTC actually uses their devices. Unless they are all deaf, send and receive SMSs only to/from their one and only imaginary friend and probably spend too much of their time watching the weather channel...
fmcastro said:
Well, one thing we can safely assume by now is that no one at HTC actually uses their devices. Unless they are all deaf, send and receive SMSs only to/from their one and only imaginary friend and probably spend too much of their time watching the weather channel...
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Some bugs are bearable.. I had too many with all my previous XDA/HTC phones. But for such basic bugs to be found, the device primary tasks ( phone calls / SMS ) should never be affected because it makes the device useless...
fmcastro said:
the endless steps (gold card, hardSPL, regEdit, dictionary hacks, you name it) needed to get the phone speaking your language. You just have to say: I want “THAT” system language and “THAT” input language and that’s it. That’s how it’s done on the iPhone. And I’m not talking 3 or 4 languages. I’m saying over 30 different languages and oh, you also have voice control on YOUR language. You don’t need to hack Voice Command…
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Uh... you do realise that the reason these hacks exist is because the HD2 probably hasn't been officially launched in the country / language of your choice, and that people are hacking so they can use the HD2 in their country sooner than as decided by the carrier?
fmcastro said:
an SMS conversation that gets all messages out of order (doesn’t HTC know how to do time calculations?)
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That's Microsoft's fault - having said that, I haven't had the problem with the HD2 itself - only the custom ROMS cooked with Leo packages on a Touch HD.
fmcastro said:
a whole bunch of bad designed apps which you can’t effectively control / interface with because Windows Mobile programmers really don’t seem to realize that “user friendlier” is better. Have you ever used a same App on both platforms? Take Trapster for example (It’s available at Micrsoft app store). The windows mobile version of it makes me feel sorry for the programmer while the iPhone version feels very nice. Of course this is not the only example…
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And this is more due to laziness on the developer's part and nothing to do with Windows MObile or the HD2 in general. Take a look at S2U2 - have you seen how nice the settings page is? Or GAlarm, *the* best alarm program ever.
fmcastro said:
a lot of small bugs on the first ROM. Apple got it right on the first and they had never (ever) built a phone before! How many phones will HTC have to make before they get a stock ROM right? The small things are often the most annoying...
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Agreed. Wish HTC would get their act together.
If you hate iTunes so much why not wait a few more months for the Xperia X10, running Android with Snapdragon? Or the Motorola DROID for that matter?
aussiebum said:
Uh... you do realise that the reason these hacks exist is because the HD2 probably hasn't been officially launched in the country / language of your choice, and that people are hacking so they can use the HD2 in their country sooner than as decided by the carrier?
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Humm... not exactly. Most people here at XDA were trying to switch from an oficial ROM to another. That said, we're talking about official languages. I was trying to flash a WWE ROM on a french device for example. The HTC excuse for this terrible language mess is, of course, microsoft: "Unfortunately, due to licensing restrictions put in place by Microsoft, it is not legally possible for us the change the language of a device once it has been loaded" - Quoted from an HTC support email I received.
aussiebum said:
That's Microsoft's fault - having said that, I haven't had the problem with the HD2 itself - only the custom ROMS cooked with Leo packages on a Touch HD.
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Do you realise it shouldn't matter whose fault it is? It's a faulty device sold by HTC, period. I don't feel any better knowing it's an OS fault.
aussiebum said:
And this is more due to laziness on the developer's part and nothing to do with Windows MObile or the HD2 in general. Take a look at S2U2 - have you seen how nice the settings page is? Or GAlarm, *the* best alarm program ever.
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I know but I think it's a bit more complicated as I said on the original post. Besides the laziness, WM developers face a too heterogeneous ecossystem that makes things really harder. "Ok, I've finished my app, now I just have to port it to 640x480, 480x640, 480x800, 800x480, 320x200, and who knows what else, despite the fact that standard WM UIs are really crap so every developer has to start from scratch if they want to make something look good. In short, only a few very brave souls will be capable of that.
aussiebum said:
Agreed. Wish HTC would get their act together.
If you hate iTunes so much why not wait a few more months for the Xperia X10, running Android with Snapdragon? Or the Motorola DROID for that matter?
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Because Android is not that good also. It seems like a better OS than WM but when it comes to user experience and, most important, a consistent user experience across all apps, it fails for the same reason WM fails. Lack of a product design and roadmap. It's just trying desperately to be installed on as most devices as it can.
Regards
And yet, the reasons people still use Winmo/Android is because the Iphone OS has serious deficiencies in some areas.
There is no perfect phone....all we can do is make the best of each OS.
Honestly you'd be better off with an iphone. I love my HD2 despite some minor problems, because I enjoy messing around with my phone. Also browsing the net on the HD2 is much faster than on the 3GS and you don't have to zoom in in order to read anything on the screen.
Let's not forget that the device is going to be upgradeable to winmo 7 as well.
Solution - keep HD2 and get ipod Touch - best of both worlds. Connect ipod via Wifi to HD2.
I owned iphone 3gs...
I read all you've been writing and i, as former iphone 3gs user, must say that everything you say is corect but... why don't you say to all of us why you gave up your iphone... or why you really hating go back to itunes... and of course why in the close future you'll give up again, and sell the iphone???
The answer, real answer is that with iPhone you have everything right in place as you say but there is no fun... no joy... like trying to have the best sex but not in the mood... if know what i mean...
I had moments when i pulled out my iphone, from my pocket, and i wanted to play arround with it and...come on, really boring!!!
Iphone is the best in terms of everyday use, but if wm 7 will get better in terms of use it's going to be a strong iphone killer!!!
I really like my HD2, in spite of all the hiccups, because it's fun, you can lose yourself for hours doing nothing but looking inside of it... settings, registry, HKLM, HKCU... does ring a bell, than entering here at xda and finding that someone did something and you hold your breath till you see if that is working or not...
I only say that i like playing... and HTC HD2 is giving me that!!! i don't need silly games to have fun from my device...
By the way...
No OS can have better handle of e-mail attachments than wm... for sure!!!
I HAVE NO REGRETS FOR SELLING IPHONE OVER HTC HD2!!!
Cheers!
jimbo29 said:
I really like my HD2, in spite of all the hiccups, because it's fun, you can lose yourself for hours doing nothing but looking inside of it... settings, registry, HKLM, HKCU... does ring a bell, than entering here at xda and finding that someone did something and you hold your breath till you see if that is working or not...
I only say that i like playing... and HTC HD2 is giving me that!!! i don't need silly games to have fun from my device...
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Thanks for perfectly expressing my thoughts
Toss3 said:
Honestly you'd be better off with an iphone. I love my HD2 despite some minor problems, because I enjoy messing around with my phone. Also browsing the net on the HD2 is much faster than on the 3GS and you don't have to zoom in in order to read anything on the screen.
Let's not forget that the device is going to be upgradeable to winmo 7 as well.
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I must say i have had an iphone 3g and i'm more happy with my HTC HD2. One of the reasons is because i simply think you pay way to much for the piece of hardware itself still no 5mpx camera while 8 is almost normal and 12 is high end. The new gs is worth more the money tough but the camera keeps me off and i kept hearing a annoying resonance while calling and the software isn't perfect as well and not that stable after a few days plus the battery life of the HTC HD2 is better as my iphone 3g and way better as the 3gs.
I like the default windows mobile software HTC Sense is annoying, camera flip, weather animations can't be turned off. Emails why show the email in the way it is shown now? i just rather had opened the whole email app so i can view the emails like your supposed to and not like a letter.
While calling you have to slide to get the extra options, why? there is a hang up button on screen wich you can press so why not the other buttons?
HTC tried to make a nice looking skin but not a functional one.
I use the default titanium skin with some modifications like a task manager added to the options and msn and the camera. But the apps for calling and the communications manager work great.
About windows mobile 7:
Windows mobile can be great. But i still have the idea they haven't learned from their mistakes. Look at the buttons a phone is supposed to have according to microsoft for windows mobile 7. a Pickup, a home, a start, a back and a hang up button. Why so many? Home and start could be one, 1 press to go home another to go to start and press again to go home again, simple and effective. Why a back button? when would you use that? Press the home button and your back in the home screen and applications usually have their own back button when needed. So pick-up home and hang-up would have been enough. Since Microsoft asks for these buttons they still think to complicated and i bet windows 7 will to complicated as well all though it will be more complete compared to 6.x.
But i love how i can change things to the user interface and multitasking is great, the iphone can't do that by default and that really sucks. And backgrounder that does make it possible, makes the phone more unstable as a windows mobile one. It is stupid windows mobile doesn't use it's greatest advantage for marketing and battling the iphone with it, this is where windows mobile could stand out with.
I'm writing this from my macbook on os x snow leopard and even i still prefer my windows mobile HTC HD2.
Windows Mobile 7 will simply use CE7 Kernel, compiled for new ARM CPUs and will use the new ARM instructions.
Now we're running Windows Mobile 6.5 that runs on CE5.2 kernel.
It's like running Windows98 on a Phenom X4 quadcore CPU
Even on other MSM chipsets that has got an ARM11 CPU, that potential isn't seen because of that.
When WM7 will be released, we'll see our device performance unleashed
I've had my HD2 for a week now and I must say I'm more than pleased with it. I did consider the iPhone as an option, but as I want to connect my phone to my Exchange Server then it was a no brainer to opt for a Windows Phone and the hardware specs of the HD2 are way above the iPhone. A big thing that put me off the iPhone was it's reliance upon iTunes to synchronise my calendar & contacts - it's dreadfully buggy toy software and I don't want a music application on my work PC.
If anyone has any doubts as to the iPhone's reliability and stability just Google "iPhone faults" and you'll see the problems users have experienced with their iPhones are considerable, with many being bricked through their hardware faults. Interestingly the most common reported faults are similar to those reported by the HTC dissenters such as slow SMS sending - maybe these are network issues? On top of that there's now the 'Astley' virus which Apple helpfully explain away as "the users' fault".
The emergence of open source Android phones whill hopefully spur the mainstream smartphone OS writers to concentrate their efforts on developing their own platforms. It's true to say that Microsoft haven't trerated their Windows OS as a mainstream product and there's still too much legacy code in 6.5, but it's still a decent OS for its intended purpose Hopefully that will be addressed in Version 7 which looks likely to be available to HD2 users as an (free?) upgrade. There's masses of quality third-party apps avaiable to maximise its smartphone potential for just about all users,.
There isn't a perfect smartphone out there and as we demand ever more features of them I doubt if there is likely to be in the forseable future, but the nice thing about the Windows Phone OS is that it is eminently hackable.
HD2 Simply Put...
Depth & Customization!
iphone got it right???
I remember hearing complaints about iphone for at least the first year, and as omneity says:
"If anyone has any doubts as to the iPhone's reliability and stability just Google "iPhone faults" and you'll see the problems users have experienced with their iPhones are considerable, with many being bricked through their hardware faults. Interestingly the most common reported faults are similar to those reported by the HTC dissenters such as slow SMS sending - maybe these are network issues? On top of that there's now the 'Astley' virus which Apple helpfully explain away as 'the users' fault' ".
fmcastro said:
We don’t have to accept …
5. a lot of small bugs on the first ROM. Apple got it right on the first and they had never (ever) built a phone before! How many phones will HTC have to make before they get a stock ROM right? The small things are often the most annoying...
Sadly, I’m going back to my 3GS… (god I hate iTunes…)
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p.s. I am a former Apple user. Iphone is more of Jobs' controlled user experience.
I couldn't stand it.
I find it ironic that Apple started out supporting open source while Gates worked hard at controlling users choice.
Now it is the reverse.
New things r always trapped in some trouble, and that's why i have paid close attention to leo, but i didn't buy it! im just waiting for a staid one.
To put it simply - the HD2 is the best phone I have ever used. I think it is awesome. I've had an iphone, etc - but the truth is there is no phone that hasn't got problems. The Iphone is falwed because it has no multi-tasking, crap camera, poor messaging (in my opinion), limited configurability, and its tied to iTunes which is horrible. The HD2 has non of the above. Yes it has flaws itself, but in my eyes less than any other phone out there at the moment.
Teneka_Khan said:
To put it simply - the HD2 is the best phone I have ever used. I think it is awesome. I've had an iphone, etc - but the truth is there is no phone that hasn't got problems. The Iphone is falwed because it has no multi-tasking, crap camera, poor messaging (in my opinion), limited configurability, and its tied to iTunes which is horrible. The HD2 has non of the above. Yes it has flaws itself, but in my eyes less than any other phone out there at the moment.
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I FULLY agree with you ; I also have a iphone 3G 16 GB but is now in the drawer collecting dust. As saying goes, One man's meat is another man poison . No point debating about how good/bad the HD2 and iPhone and any other PDA. It will never end
As far as I am concerned , the HD2 is my choice now vs iPhone
gavinfabl said:
Solution - keep HD2 and get ipod Touch - best of both worlds. Connect ipod via Wifi to HD2.
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Yep, I totally agree...and that's just what i've now done