S7 Edge SBL Brick? - Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge Questions and Answers

Greetings everyone. So let me preface this by saying, I do know a fair bit about android, odin and the like so I am familiar with troubleshooting by reverting to stock via odin. I was on my S7 the other day and noticed that it had an update. So, I hit update and let it do it's thing. While updating the screen went pink then restarted.
Phone Info: **S7 Edge T-Mobile | SM-G935TZKATMB**
Now the only screen I am greeted with is:
SBL Error!
SET CP DEBUG
rdx_init!
skip print_summary_to_lcd
SBL ERROR
UPLOAD MODE
Things I've tried:.
1. Recovery mode (Goes to the sbl error screen)
2. Download mode (Goes to the sbl error screen)
3. USB Jig to force download mode (Goes to the sbl error screen, tested the jig on a friends phone, so it indeed works)
4. Opening Odin while the phone is connected to my pc. Shows a com port, but not able to actually flash anything.
The phone is showing in the device manager as a modem and I have tried an EDL cable which puts it into qualcom mode 8008. I am not sure if there is anything that can be done or not. I have a feeling that it might have to be repaired through JTAG. I have seen instances where a file from a working s7edge can be put onto an SD card to revive it but, I've had no luck in finding such a file online and do not know anyone locally with one to get them to do the backup process, Any help would be appreciated.
FIXED! Here is how to fix the issue
Steps to use emergency files (YOU WILL NEED OR MAKE AN EDL CABLE FOR THIS METHOD):
1. Open Files 35 - 50 - 55.rar navigate through to the folder 35 and then extract DEBUG_EMERGENCY_DOWNLOAD_FA60_G935AUCU5ARA2_CL1107 1963_QB16394537_REV02_user_mid_noship_MULTI_CERT.t gz somewhere you can find it, then navigate through the folders "nhols>common>tools>emergency download then extract all files to a new folder.
2. Put your phone into emergency download mode via your EDL cable Run the "recovery.bat" and then once asked input your qualcomm loader port number (found in device manager)
3. If all steps are done correctly then you should be able to use the vol down+home+power into download mode
Link to emergency files Emergency Files
Link to my reddit post as I was troubleshooting the issue Reddit Post

lmao im having same issue as we speak on a g935a myself! if u find a way please help me

I've fixed this issue if anyone still needs help with it!

oSlLENCEo said:
I've fixed this issue if anyone still needs help with it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How did you fix it?
And what carrier SIM is in your phone, T-Mo right?

charter3554 said:
How did you fix it?
And what carrier SIM is in your phone, T-Mo right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, my phone is the s7 Edge T-Mo. Not able to post a link right now, so I'll message you with the information.

oSlLENCEo said:
Yes, my phone is the s7 Edge T-Mo. Not able to post a link right now, so I'll message you with the information.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
please message me also! asap thanks

oSlLENCEo said:
Yes, my phone is the s7 Edge T-Mo. Not able to post a link right now, so I'll message you with the information.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you able to post a link now? I am having the same issues after trying to flash a combination file. Actually Chimera tried to flash it and now my phone won't get past this sbl error. I can enter EDL mode but that's about it. And i haven't been able to find the information online anywhere yet. It's becoming very frustrating. If you can't post a link can you send me a message with how to fix this please!?!?

Same Problem
Please help. I have the same problem... My phone is Galaxy S7 Edge. Had software update failed error and followed steps, but that also failed and now stuck with the sbl upload screen...

hello i need help to get out of sbl error. S7 g930p thank you
oSlLENCEo said:
I've fixed this issue if anyone still needs help with it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hello i need help to get out of sbl error. thank you

Help spl error
Could u plz help me with this spl error upload mode on Samsung galaxy s7 edge sm-g935t. Thanks

Frustrated
oSlLENCEo said:
I've fixed this issue if anyone still needs help with it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, please help me with this before my s7 goes through a window lol

Hey guys, sorry I've not been active on this lately. I've had a ton of work. I'll be free tomorrow and will help anyone who has asked for it in this thread.

hec2k said:
lmao im having same issue as we speak on a g935a myself! if u find a way please help me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
flash : Samsung_G935x_QC_Rooted_BOOT ,use modified odin (prince comsy),works for me

oSlLENCEo said:
Hey guys, sorry I've not been active on this lately. I've had a ton of work. I'll be free tomorrow and will help anyone who has asked for it in this thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please help us, I hace the sane problem :bueno:

Hello friends I have an S7 g930p with SBL ERROR will not let me do anything, I HAVE THE EDL CABLE but there is no recognize port, I want to know if there is a combination to be able to recognize the port.

oscard0426 said:
Hello friends I have an S7 g930p with SBL ERROR will not let me do anything, I HAVE THE EDL CABLE but there is no recognize port, I want to know if there is a combination to be able to recognize the port.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you getting into EDL mode properly? Your screen should be black if you are in EDL mode, and you'll get a Qualcomm loader device in your ports section of device manager.

oSlLENCEo said:
Are you getting into EDL mode properly? Your screen should be black if you are in EDL mode, and you'll get a Qualcomm loader device in your ports section of device manager.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
I already have EDL cable. can you tell me how to put in to EDL mode. thank.

Thank you so much!

So i have it recognize the qualcom port and i do the recover file, but any button combo will not work. If i have it in edl do i need to press the buttons? Also i need the firmware for a 935t. Can anybody help me out as i know im just missing steps. Thank you

Hello bro
I have Samsung S7 US Cellular variant model is SM-G930R4 and I have the exactly same error on my screen, it came during an update which went fail at the end and initially it was showing a blue screen written instruction to use Verizon update app to download the right firmware but then somehow went into this SBL ERROR screen.
Could you please guide where to find the files as you use for S7 Edge above?
Really appreciate for your help!
Regards

Related

Galaxy

Galaxy
claudiudanila said:
Hi everyone, I have a big problem on my phone (SM-N910F) does not start even in download / recovery mode, the screen is off. I think it's a "hard brick."
All I can see now in device manager is Qualcomm HS-USB QDLoader 9008 (COM7).
Is there any possibility to bring my phone back into download mode? Please help me !!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well lets start by telling us what you did to the phone to get you where you are. And, what model is the N910F?
EDIT: is the "F" version for Europe?
Galaxy
What happens when you try to enter download mode?
Galaxy
claudiudanila said:
Thank you, I own a Samsung Galaxy Note 4, model SM-N910F for Europe.
I used a zip package to run a script via TWRP. The script was erasing some applications(bloatware) from rom. After the script was executed, I forgot to execute a wipe data/cache/factory and my phone was started to boot. After touchwiz was initialised, 3 seconds later my phone froze. Then I removed the battery and...here I am.
My computer is able to detect the phone(i can see in device manager Qualcomm HS-USB QDLoader 9008 (COM7) but Odin is unable to see any phone connected.
I've already tried an USB JIG but nothing...
I found an interesting thing, I can connect to the phone using QPST, please find attached a screenshot(Capture1.png). Here I found an option named Software Download. I've clicked this option and i can see: COM7 Phone in Download Mode. Please look at the attached picture Capture3. Here I can see two options: Phone Image and Boot image. Can I upload some specific boot image to unbrick my phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure I can help you but you may be using a corrupted program, QPST. See here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2263391
When the phone is hooked up to the charger do you get a charging indication on the LED? Is the battery charged or at least have some charge left on it?
Have you removed the battery and then tried to boot. If not give that a try. The only other recommendation I can offer since I've never used QPST and I don't know what script you ran to remove bloatware so I can't tell what it potentially did is to try to recover your phone through Kies (Samsung software). I seldom recommend Kies and have never used it myself since I have an unlocked bootloader, but if Kies recognizes your phone there may be hope. Good luck.
claudiudanila said:
Nothing...the screen is black, i cannot see anything, also Odin is unable to see the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well it is weird that QPST shows you are in download mode but odin cannot see it.
Galaxy
Galaxy
claudiudanila said:
No led..no indicator..nothing...Kies is also unable to see the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry claudiudanila, based on what you've told us I have no other ideas.
claudiudanila said:
Hi everyone, I have a big problem on my Galaxy Note 4 phone (SM-N910F) does not start even in download / recovery mode, the screen is off. I think it's a "hard brick."
All I can see now in device manager is Qualcomm HS-USB QDLoader 9008 (COM7).
Is there any possibility to bring my phone back into download mode? Please help me !!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope you are using windows pc not mac for odin.
jdomadia said:
I hope you are using windows pc not mac for odin.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Judging by the screenshots i would say its windows.
That said, I don't think I have any more ideas to add to the solutions already suggested.
You might wanna try your luck with z3x box or visit samsung service center.. that's all there's left to add.
maksharma231 said:
Judging by the screenshots i would say its windows.
That said, I don't think I have any more ideas to add to the solutions already suggested.
You might wanna try your luck with z3x box or visit samsung service center.. that's all there's left to add.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Using windows in mac parallel creates problem for flashing.
Galaxy

LG G2 stuck at boot loop!

Today my brother comes home with his phone that i gave to him recently and its stuck on bootloop. I searched around the internet and it says that this happens when ur phone is bricked? Im sure he doesn't even know how to root the phone.
But he did mention that it was raining and it might been wet.
What should i do to fix this?
edit: forgot to add more info:
version: d802 32gb
leprachun said:
Today my brother comes home with his phone that i gave to him recently and its stuck on bootloop. I searched around the internet and it says that this happens when ur phone is bricked? Im sure he doesn't even know how to root the phone.
But he did mention that it was raining and it might been wet.
What should i do to fix this?
edit: forgot to add more info:
version: d802 32gb
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does it go into download mode? if so search on general section for go back to stock..
vol up then connect usb cable. it should take you to download mode.
raptorddd said:
Does it go into download mode? if so search on general section for go back to stock..
vol up then connect usb cable. it should take you to download mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello thanks for your reply. Yes i can enter download mode.
I looked up some guides on youtube and i can't seem to figure out the cmd part.
I type in the commands but it says it doesn't find any device. Could someone help me out via remote desktop perhaps? i would appreciate it.
leprachun said:
Hello thanks for your reply. Yes i can enter download mode.
I looked up some guides on youtube and i can't seem to figure out the cmd part.
I type in the commands but it says it doesn't find any device. Could someone help me out via remote desktop perhaps? i would appreciate it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well theres skr tools that can fix it i think.. or just reset everything like factory, flashing stock firmware.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2432476

Hard brick SM-N910F

Tried installing custom recovery didn't work out like I had hoped now im stuck with a phone that isn't detected by odin or kies but by MiFlash
Please tell me there is something I can do to fix it or get it to some sort of working order..? Is there a jtag tool or usb jig I can use?
Update - I found out the phone was still under warranty so I sent it away to be repaired. It was repaired and I now have a working phone !
ylmcc said:
Tried installing custom recovery didn't work out like I had hoped now im stuck with a phone that isn't detected by odin or kies but by MiFlash
Please tell me there is something I can do to fix it or get it to some sort of working order..? Is there a jtag tool or usb jig I can use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What have you done to reach that state? I know that you're desperate but you must give some details if you want help.
It was given to me with 5.1.1 installed however it failed mid process and while on 5.1.1 it kept freezing and acting weird such as boot with weird errors and they only appeared after it was updated, I decided to root it with odin and it never fully rebooted after the was root applied. I finally got it to boot to stock and rooted and decided to install a custom recovery which was twrp while selecting the recovery it said if its a wrong location it will brick, with this in mind I checked the model with the one on their site and it seemed to make sense and applied it.
This caused the original problem which made it boot straight to download mode with it saying it could not normal boot. I then googled the problem and one said the pit was corrupted and downloaded the correct file. I then applied this through odin with stock firmware and it refuse to flash. At the time I was thinking a restart on the device would help, but it resulted in not booting at all and not being detected....
It does not light up or make a vibration when its connected or powered on if there is any solution it would be great...
Can anyone help or point in the right direction?
Hard brick SM-910F
Hello! If this is the good recovery for the N910F he would have from start.
Try to boot via the recovery flight up + home + power.
If you TWRP flash a custom in a first time rom
[email protected] said:
Hello! If this is the good recovery for the N910F he would have from start.
Try to boot via the recovery flight up + home + power.
If you TWRP flash a custom in a first time rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing however the pc did detect a new driver called qualcomm hs-usb qdloader 9008
ylmcc said:
Nothing however the pc did detect a new driver called qualcomm hs-usb qdloader 9008
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
qualcomm emergency download mode. is it called.
Tunestwo said:
qualcomm emergency download mode. is it called.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anything I can do to get some sort of os on the phone now?
in this case via Odin tries to reinstall the tar of the official rom N910F .
ylmcc said:
Anything I can do to get some sort of os on the phone now?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you tell us if you can get on recovery screen, either TRWP or stock, or download mode.
You could try installing these drivers:
https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=24499762636000789
Reboot just in case and try to connect your device again.
(In download mode, with the key combination)
mangui said:
Can you tell us if you can get on recovery screen, either TRWP or stock, or download mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The phone does not display or respond when the keys are pressed, just a black screen..
Battlehero said:
You could try installing these drivers:
https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=24499762636000789
Reboot just in case and try to connect your device again.
(In download mode, with the key combination)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chrome detected a virus in the rar
ylmcc said:
The phone does not display or respond when the keys are pressed, just a black screen..
Chrome detected a virus in the rar
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? I just scanned it with VirusTotal and it is clean.
Virus Total Results
32Bit.exe scan results
64Bit.exe scan results
Battlehero said:
Really? I just scanned it with VirusTotal and it is clean.
Virus Total Results
32Bit.exe scan results
64Bit.exe scan results
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll download it again but windows defender detected it too.
Edit - Yep did it again, here is a link to a photo of what I get but from virus total I don't get why its being flagged perhaps false positive ??
Update
Found a jtag service that is cheap will update once I get it back...
sm-n910f
I got a brick note 4 and i want to fix it
I search over the internet for this solution and found a method
Sd card repair boot but it did not work at all
I need help
thank you in advance

How to fix a galaxy j1 SM-j100h hard brick

Hi, i want to fix a phone of my friend by flashing it with odin, but things go wrong, the phone after failing wont start or respond to any button, i dont know what to do, please any help would be appreciated
Samsung Galaxy J1 SM-J100H
Edit:
Thanks xEmre66 for your reply, unfortunately no, i think i break the boot image, the phone wont boot on download mode even if i use 300k jig, i think the only solution is to use an sd card filled with the boot image, but i dont find in website a solution like that.
I tryed many solution but no one work, please if someone have the some problem tell me.
Can you get into the DownloadMode? (ODIN MODE)???
Sent from my SM-J100H using XDA-Developers mobile app
---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 AM ----------
I have this phone but it is not my main phone but maybe I can help you.
Sent from my SM-J100H using XDA-Developers mobile app
i'm working on this problem..
i resolved,
share there
OSKCHAST said:
i resolved,
share there
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please can you share the solution ?, i cant fix the phone.
same problem here
I have same problem here, samsung j100h of my friend do not boot, i download odin and correct rom to flash i flashed device correctly, but device now is fully dead, display not start, black screen, my win10 not recognise device, now cant flash using odin and using sp_flashtool....
device respond at win10 when i push vol up + power but can't make anything
i try to install all drivers signed and unsigned from samsung and mkt.. nothing works any idea???
caseres84 said:
I have same problem here, samsung j100h of my friend do not boot, i download odin and correct rom to flash i flashed device correctly, but device now is fully dead, display not start, black screen, my win10 not recognise device, now cant flash using odin and using sp_flashtool....
device respond at win10 when i push vol up + power but can't make anything
i try to install all drivers signed and unsigned from samsung and mkt.. nothing works any idea???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You broke the boot image. I'm sorry but you hard bricked the device. I had this phone but it was terrible because of its touchscreen. Maybe I could help you. Send me a PM and describe how you really broke the device.
xEmre66 said:
You broke the boot image. I'm sorry but you hard bricked the device. I had this phone but it was terrible because of its touchscreen. Maybe I could help you. Send me a PM and describe how you really broke the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
same in here. I flash original rom from sam mobile site and my samsung sm-j100h is bricked now. i flash using odin and everthing was ok and it was pass. but nothing happend later on, screen remains black and I don't know what to do.
or atleast tell me can I get somehow all data stored on phone, if yes how to do it
guys still nothing???
same problem guys i bricked the phone 2 days ago with the original firmware from sam mobile u.u i put my samusung j1 in download mode and with odin i done the reflash odin it was green and said me passed but then when i tried to turn on the phone nothing happened my phone is died hard bricked is there a guys something to do to repair him?
i got the same problem..
the phone was completely DEAD after i followed all the instructions here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T9fxno2s68
Please somebody help us..
Here's my thread => http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/help/help-sm-j100h-dead-power-flash-t3511894
Thank you very much..
im using sm j110h and i too flashed orginal stock rom via odin but unfortunately i forget to put the batteries on and i fonud that after that i got pass message only now the screen remaines black and not getting to download mode and not switching on. does anyone help me on this problem hope will get a solution thanks in advance
Gal J1 of sadness.... but still hoping
2 days ago a friend asked me to fix his J1 stuck in boot image. I gladly said yes for I've done it 4x already different units same model with satisfying results. This one is the exact opposite because after flashing with Odin and getting the Passed result, the phone didn't reboot. Actually it never booted right after that moment. System didn't recognize the phone not even a dim light or blink or any reaction from it even when plugged in a wall charger. tried all possible solutions even the galaxy tab procedure of total batt drain and so on. The firmware I got is from xda, J100MLDXU0AOB3_OLC0AOB5_v4.4.4_Repair_Firmware.zip, and I'm sure it's fine because I've used it already with good results...
Guys, any of you with a solution on this or any suggestions would be much appreciated... Thanks very much in advance!!! :fingers-crossed:
Chrisjopett said:
2 days ago a friend asked me to fix his J1 stuck in boot image. I gladly said yes for I've done it 4x already different units same model with satisfying results. This one is the exact opposite because after flashing with Odin and getting the Passed result, the phone didn't reboot. Actually it never booted right after that moment. System didn't recognize the phone not even a dim light or blink or any reaction from it even when plugged in a wall charger. tried all possible solutions even the galaxy tab procedure of total batt drain and so on. The firmware I got is from xda, J100MLDXU0AOB3_OLC0AOB5_v4.4.4_Repair_Firmware.zip, and I'm sure it's fine because I've used it already with good results...
Guys, any of you with a solution on this or any suggestions would be much appreciated... Thanks very much in advance!!! :fingers-crossed:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
PM me pls and tell me how you flashed it etc.
Help
I have same problem,hard brick.Can anyone help?
somebody got solution? i did update by kies and now the phone is dead at all. i can use odin mode and also can using recovery anymore. hmm i think my problem come from the battery :crying:
kkq29 said:
somebody got solution? i did update by kies and now the phone is dead at all. i can use odin mode and also can using recovery anymore. hmm i think my problem come from the battery :crying:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you get into Odin Mode? If yes, flash the stock firmware of your region (here is a fast server which provides very fast downloads: fw.updato.com) If no, then you should change your battery as you're saying "it came from my battery" and try the first step again.
If it doesn't help as expected, then your phone is hard bricked and can't be repaired at all. The only solution would be changing the motherboard, but I would not waste my money on a low-end device motherboard and I would directly buy a new phone. :/
Regards,
xEmre66
If I am correct...
Then SM-J110H have Spreadtrum SC7727S
Here is Pinout for Direct eMMC...
https://postimg.cc/image/ul680l5jv/
This Pinout seems also to work with:
Code:
SM-G318HZ
SM-Z130H
I have leaked SM-Z130H PDF... where Instruction is inside to repair with tweezer... USB cable + Spreadtrum Tool:
Code:
[B]ResearchDownload[/B]
In theory something similar should be possible with SM-J110H...
I have at the moment only 1 problem... to create PAC file...
No idea from where I can get:
Code:
FDL1
FDL2
Best Regards
Edit 1.
Sorry, seems I was drunken...
It is sooo hard to find Posts or Threads about SM-J110H...
But it seems SM-J100H also Spreadtrum device...
xEmre66 said:
PM me pls and tell me how you flashed it etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
PM me too please
My teacher phone has a same problem, hehehe.
same problem here. my phone got stuck up with samsung logo then i just dowloaded a firmware on sammobile and i flash it via odin at first it passed then my phone did'nt turn on anymore.
J100H / DD Finding Deadboot solution
Hi ... guys me too having this sort of problem and i found bad about samsung using 32bit - Spreadtrum SC8830A EMMC chipset here
Fix solution Not Found still! if i done i will tell you!
on = SM-J100H/DD --- corp =samsung yateley, uk
ok friend iam searching for Solution for 3days bt i found none= with a clue
It is J100H on serial port= SPRD U2S Daig (ComXX) usb says= SPRD COM Emumerator
this means - all sprd flashing been done on this 2 port only - in Miracle Box it says -
Scanning USB Serial port...
SU2Serial Port: COM64
Connecting to Phone,Wait..
Done.
Infor: SPRD3
Initialize boot19...
>>BootLoad Error. ID: 1
so my option is if we build a sprdp.bin and flash in AP(PDA) it will boot to Download mode
and dont ask me where is that file i dont no - if any one can provide a real backup pit.pit file
via phone to me i can find something and let u know it. Only from a alive phone J100H/DD
plz friends i need help any dumps or pit. and if any one has a alive J100H/DD please tell me.!
so i can get some help from u --If you wish to help

Samsung Galaxy Tab A(10.1 2019) SM-T510 soft-brick

Hey guys,
im sorry if the topic doesnt fit here. I am new and not a techi. My Son just tried to flash some custom ROM on our Samsung Tab A and somehow bricked it. It is not possible for me to get into Recovery or Download Mode i have already tried all Button-Combinations. It just shows an error saying "An error has occured while updating the device software. Use the Emergency recovery function in the Smart Switch PC software."
I have already tried with draining the Baterry empty (described in forum thread here: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1478361) and plug it in to get the Charging symbol. But it doesnt happen. It just shows only the Error..
So i really dont have any more ideas how to get into recovery/download mode.. Is there anything i didnt tried??
It seems like the download-mode is not available. Is there a way to "install" a new one??
edit: it seems like this IS the download-mode.. anyways i think i just need the stock firmware for this model T510NZKDDBT. I cant find it via duckduck/google..
Maybe someone can help me with it?
Thank you
nevermind!! i've figured it out. Flashed new bootloader via Odin. Now its working again
Thread can be closed!
arbmos said:
nevermind!! i've figured it out. Flashed new bootloader via Odin. Now its working again
Thread can be closed!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey bud can you help me out here? I am having the same issue you were. How do I flash a new bootloader into the device?
Pucc0 said:
hey bud can you help me out here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know I'm a year late, and you've either figured this out or moved on, but maybe I can clear this up for anyone else in the same situation.
I stuffed up and got the same message - "An error has occured while updating the device software. Use the Emergency recovery function in the Smart Switch PC software."
That error message screen is basically the download screen. Windows (and the Smart Switch software) won't connect to the tablet while that screen is displayed, but Odin will.
You can bring up Odin and re-flash the stock software (or whatever you need) while that message is displayed. If you still have trouble, holding power and down-volume will re-initialise the download screen, though it will still display the same "emergency recovery function" error message.
I hope that's enough of a description to get people out of trouble!

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