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Android is open. That's why I have my Samsung Galaxy S, my Nexus One and my Sapphire.
I have these phones because the open community can do better than the professionals, and I am proud to be a member of a community that has recently hacked Froyo onto the G1, Android2HD2 (and other Winmo devices), created great skins and themes, rooted almost every droid to date, hacked google navigation to work in other countries etc etc etc.
There is amazing work being done is this community.
Kingklick was able to put out a lot of ROMs which satisfied a lot of people. Contributors to Cyanogenmod (disclaimer. notably not Cyanogen himself) and others (fans and friends - disclaimer. note lack of word fanboys - of cyanogenmod, disclaimer. plus some others too) have flamed and flamed away about Kangklick (notably via twitter - I have stopped following any of those jerks that clogged up my feeds with what could've - screw that - should've been settled MUCH more privately..I followed you guys for dev news or the occasional interesting insight into your real life, not your petty bickering, but you have every right to post what you like...hence why I stopped following you all, I didn't flame you...note 'bigger man').
Rule 12 of XDArules clearly states that using the work of others must be done with permission, independent of whether it is open source or not. If this is not upheld then the post will be bought down, it does not say the user will be banned. I would understand the formality of taking the post down and requesting Kingklick reposts the ROM with due credit, but I believe - note believe...implies opinion - that moderators may have been influenced by pressure from other (high ranking, public eye) members and thus did not adhere to normal or just (I do not know if not giving creds is normally treated in this way, but you will discover I believe it shouldn't be) protacol. Kingklick broke the rules of XDA, but then again I see his banning as the least contentious issue here.
I believe that members of the XDA community in the public eye (ie with large Twitter follower base) due to their work via XDA (no matter what you say, cyanogenmod may be based at its own domain, but it still posts at XDA to maintain its public profile and feed of the massive XDA userbase, and is hence in part bound by this) have a responsibility to follow the rules of XDA on XDA rules and disputes. I do not think this is something which can be policed ('I'm banning you Wes for Trolling Kingklick...on Twitter'... not gonna work) but I think it is a moral obligation (anyone that thinks the internet is not bound by morality should take a reality check...the reason why we have open source is essentially ethics).
Do we give credit to Linus Torvalds every time we distribute linux kernels or work to do with linux? Do we give credit to those that helped him create this base? Do we give credit to Google for creating Android? HTC? Our carriers? Martin Cooper for inventing the mobile phone and cell networks? Time Berners-Lee for inventing the internet, giving rise to this forum, Google and thus the Phones/Devices we love and use? The fact is we don't give credit where due (although you may say its obscure to thank these people, they DO deserve our thanks). None of the ROM chefs/coders give all credit where due, but a lot do in part, with those directly involved. But who still thanks the original rooters?
Kingklick has been declared a copier by the jury...I haven't delved through the evidence to confirm this...but shouldn't we be much more relaxed about copying in general? All users should be open about their work with Android, but they are not. If kingklick based a build off Cyanongenmod, and gave due credit for that, he would be called unoriginal, despite his attempts to make improvements. I also believe that there should be transparency, a log of all complaints of interest and the community told in a statement from the mods why someone was banned...at least in part (keeping gory details to themselves thank you very much).
Donations are generally given by 'end-users'...noobs who can flash and maybe do some work on the builds but their contributions are limited. End users generally want user experience, and reward devs with commendation and donations. If kingklick does work on a build which satisfies more users and he hence gets donations, is that stealing donations? No. The original dev works on an open source project knowing that their work is open, but the end user can reward as he/she likes. Perhaps kingklick developed his following due to his branding...he did always use words like FAST and STABLE and SMOOTH, but Apple do the same and they're not banned from trading despite the hyperbole.
I do not doubt that a lot of devs thanks fellow devs with donations. Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick, however a lot of donations come from end users, and if kingklick replaces a few files using winrar (something which I generally contest, I believe kingklick does a lot of great work) and that satisfies more end users by being fast and stable and smooth (or perceived as being so thanks to branding) then he can get donations for that, they are a gesture of satisfaction and goodwill.
Kingklick was immoral by not giving true credit, however I believe that he could have been warned and asked to give credit once he got back from his night out (whether that excuse, or what ever his actual excuse was, was true).
I also laugh at the accusation that kingklick does not fill a niche within the 'open'/'free' community. This should not result in grudges and flame wars, whether it is true or not. Kingklick did fill a niche in my opinion: reviewers (and consumers) see vanilla android as being sterile. Hell it is sterile, and it's never going to be as successful as others if it doesn't sort this out. Cyanogenmod and other big names are based off this sterile form of Android, but they don't delve into Sense UI and other alternative skins, mainly due to preferences or copyright problems etc, not that that stops them with other things. Kingklick did work with these and he filled his niche by delivering great, fast, usable roms of these whilst others sneered at them for being inefficient coding or whatever...geeky snobbery.
Kingklick also delivered various fixes and things which other groups did not. I won't list all of these and I am sure representatives of Cyanogenmob et al will say 'we were gonna fix these issues anyways' or 'that's redundant' or 'that was patchy code', but kingklick has contributed. Obviously we have to hold ethics above output, we can not say that 'his holiness' (inteneded to mock those who believe cyanogen alone is a god, not cyanogen himself) Cyanogen's contributions to android exempt him from following conduct, but we do a great job of driving away good developers with flaming and telling tales. Perhaps you'll say kingklick was not a good developer, Drizzy, even Haykuro etc etc, but I only flashed Cyanogenmod on my Nexus once and I didn't like it for various reasons (personal preference yada yada) but I kept going back for more kingklick...whether that's perceived speed and branding etc or just satisfaction.
King's desire roms are great, but we never mobbed, trolled and banned the poor guy for not giving creds to HTC. Surely the morality of our community using software like Rosie on the Nexus is more ethically questionable than a fellow member of XDA's work, since HTC is a firm which employs people. I bought a Nexus over the Desire because I knew I could still have Sense and a bigger dev community, however the cost included in the Desire which goes to the developers of Sense is hence forgone (perhaps indeirectly, I don;t know HTC internal funding); therefore I have - and anyone who has ever flashed a Sense ROM or devved with Sense - indirectly caused loss of welfare for people who rely of developing as their source of income, tehir families, communities and economies. Surely that is less ethical than not saying thank you, but XDA has no problem with that. Perhaps it is too small to notice, but it will have an indirect impact nonetheless.
Yes kingklick should've said his please and thank you, but I think it's community hyped double standards, pretensical courtesy (not that I wouldn't give creds, it's just that pleases and thank yous are nice, but not actually useful). A wise man once said 'there is no threshold for immorality', just because kingklick did a larger 'crime' than the rest of the community in not giving his thanks out, that does not exempt the other rule breakers (ie everyone), it just means their punishment should be less severe...we choose to ignore it because it's less direct or forgotten about.
In conclusion, I think we should start a 'contributors to Android' part of XDA, added to by mods or specifically appointed members of the community (like the portal). This could be informative and could mean that forgotten about contributors could not be forgotten, but their contributions immortalised in the open community of Android. Even if the contributions become redundant, they are the foundations for the next chapter in the Android story.
Finally. www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a very good read..and think about what AOSP stands for (I'll give you a clue...Android Open Source Project!). Can you steal what is open? What right have others to dictate what can and cannot be distributed in the open aspects of Android code (ie the underlying OS and vanilla UI...I'm not confused with Apps). Perhaps kingklick was guilty of plagiarism? But so is anyone that claims they worked really hard in that kernel without crediting Linus and leaving a donation link to his family or favourite charitable causes. Anyone that says I've reworked the UI without giving credits to The Astonishing Tribe for the original Android concepts which all UIs are based off...
Android is closed, that's why I question this 'community'.
I am not proud to be a member of this 'community'...right now.
Ps. Cyanogenmob was originally a typo (using words like mobbed in my piece...Freudian slip on the keyboard rather than fat finger syndrome)...but I kept it in as I thought it was funny...the Cyogenmob should replace team douche IMHO!
Pps. Originally posted in Android Dev general but moved here as its Nexus dev themed!
im proud of myself for actually completing this reading haha. interesting read though.
cheddie said:
im proud of myself for actually completing this reading haha. interesting read though.
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Im more proud of you for successfully quoting the entire thing...I might submit it for my dissertation next year
HazzBazz said:
Im more proud of you for successfully quoting the entire thing...I might submit it for my dissertation next year
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hahah thanks for bringing that to my attention. had to edit it lol
To be fair I posted the god darn epic rant/essay/post...my bad !
HazzBazz said:
To be fair I posted the god darn epic rant/essay/post...my bad !
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No, I posted it! I worked long and hard last week to write it out. I am accepting donations to cover my time spent though.
All this happens because altruism is evil in the sense that it is a lie. Altruists demand payment too, in the form of recognition, appreciation, respect, reputation, and all these similar thirst for prestige.
In NOT giving recognition to comrades In arms who share a common need for prestige, it is theft among kin, robbing prestige.
Prestige is indeed a rotten currency.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Touche...topical. Doesn't really do anything against my points, I am saying kingklick is guilty among many but they are appeased because they haven't got flames burning them. I do believe that kingklick should always give credit where due.
caysman said:
All this happens because altruism is evil in the sense that it is a lie. Altruists demand payment too, in the form of recognition, appreciation, respect, reputation, and all these similar thirst for prestige.
In NOT giving recognition to comrades In arms who share a common need for prestige, it is theft among kin, robbing prestige.
Prestige is indeed a rotten currency.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
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Good point...the fact is cyanogenmod wouldn't be as big with as many great ethusiastic devs without the praise it got...but is that a fair compromise for contributions...
I really think that the issue is the same as black droid. The Problem isn't that king copied the rom and redistributed it. The problem is that he did so claiming that it was his work based off of CM. When in reality he downloaded a a finished copy of CM, compiled by the CM team, and then changed a few lines the build.prop, renamed it and asked for donations. I personally can't see how that is helping the community at all. I really don't care about King one way or the other but I do think that the people who do the work should get credit for it. They spend countless hours writing code for us to have for FREE. Code you yourself says is better than what google puts out. They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
HazzBazz said:
Good point...the fact is cyanogenmod wouldn't be as big with as many great ethusiastic devs without the praise it got...but is that a fair compromise for contributions...
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Don't misunderstand me. Payment is due, for sure, and payment makes our world go round, but I do wish it were not in the form of mousy prestige, rotten evil currency that it is. Money is a much better choice, but prestige seekers pretend to loathe $ probably because $ is less ambiguous.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
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But they do not explicitly ask for recognition do they? Even the great cyanogen does not do that, because once they impose recognition expressly as a mode of payment you would recognize that their asking for your adulation and love would seen a more demanding payment than asking for cash.
And also the inconvenience of the prestige seekers being more easily mistaken for all the money grabbing corporations which they demonize.
I'd make it clear that I have not wanted anything other than cyanogen's roms during my g1 days, and adulation I'd gladly pay, plus I have donated in money.
These guys made android exciting and formed PART of the inspiration for the paid android developers. It is unfortunate that the society's misconception of altruism as ' good' destroyed a lot of the language required to denounce it as the evil it actually is.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Gr8gorilla said:
I really think that the issue is the same as black droid. The Problem isn't that king copied the rom and redistributed it. The problem is that he did so claiming that it was his work based off of CM. When in reality he downloaded a a finished copy of CM, compiled by the CM team, and then changed a few lines the build.prop, renamed it and asked for donations. I personally can't see how that is helping the community at all. I really don't care about King one way or the other but I do think that the people who do the work should get credit for it. They spend countless hours writing code for us to have for FREE. Code you yourself says is better than what google puts out. They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
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it was actually jubehs rom he did that with.....
@OP, Omitting credit and stealing are completely different things. kk downloaded jubehs rom and changed 5-10 files and claimed it as his own. when confronted with this, kk said he compiled it himself even though the evidence overwhelmingly pointed at the other direction. He claimed to have built it from asop, when all he did was take someones rom and change a few files. if he said he "cooked" the rom from another (even without saying who) he would have been ok. But he continued to lie after he was caught which is probably why the ban hammer was dropped.
Most of this plus the damning evidence is located in the g1 section.
Also, android does not follow the GNU licensing, it follows apache, and by default, the devs who release their material here are also released under apache. Apache allows people to see the source so they can better understand it to develop, but people who use the source to develop something from it are not required to open source their works. they are also allow to put their own terms which would include giving proper credit.
AFAIK xda mods actually work together to decide on what to do with offenders. i know thats what they did for the wrecking crew (though some mods were less fair than others -_- )
PS: i havent used cyanogen mod since like 3.6.8 before the C&D lol
The sad fact is, it takes money to live in the world today. A lot of these programmers make good money 9-5 at their day jobs. The average computer engineer spends about 100,000 dollars going to college then makes about 60-70k per year after. This is working on a salary basis probably putting 40-60 hours per week. After that they spend another 20+ writing code for us because they like to. I can completely understand the devs wanting someone who copied and renamed their work to be banned.
That would be like you taking Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, Calling it Circle of Fire and trying to sell it as your own. You would get sued, etc. Come on people how can you defend this guy, come on really?
Tl,dr the OP.
flybyme said:
Omitting credit and stealing are completely different things. kk downloaded jubehs rom and changed 5-10 files and claimed it as his own. when confronted with this, kk said he compiled it himself even though the evidence overwhelmingly pointed at the other direction. He claimed to have built it from asop, when all he did was take someones rom and change a few files. if he said he "cooked" the rom from another (even without saying who) he would have been ok. But he continued to lie after he was caught which is probably why the ban hammer was dropped.
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If this is true, he got what he deserved. I had a similar thing happen when I wrote a script for the iphone which gets about 75-100 downloads a day. Someone from a forum put their name on it, posted it saying they were up all night writing it and put a donation link at the bottom of their post.
When confronted, they lied and said it didn't work so they rewrote it, but a simple comparison showed the only changes made was to echo commands which displayed the author's name and some text about how to run it. They also had no clue how it worked and gave bad advice about how to use it, and there were a lot of people on that forum using it, having problems and asking questions.
I didn't really care, and I never got a penny for my work, but it forced me to think about it, and what I came up with was: what use is there in having that kind of thing around? They aren't contributing or advancing ideas, they're confusing them and possibly screwing things up.
The douche that stole my script went from "moderator" to "supermoderator" at that site. If that was your site, why would you even want to keep him around? I'm not a banhammer kinda guy, but there's no upside to allowing things like that to continue.
Im no developer, but i do see both sides of the story. But I mean this is no way to act.
[email protected] please tell your teamdouche to grow up. We all know it was someone in it that just made that name
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kingklick92
whoever made that account with MY name haha ur f****g retarded, Ill see you in court. You distribuuted MY name
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kingklick92
whether you were in the right or not.
I think credit should just be given when you use someones work just like you would want the same for your work.
Delete if not acceptable.
Oh for ****'s sake.
OP, you're being a white-knighting ninny. KK got what he deserved: "open-source" doesn't mean an eradication of common courtesy--and crediting is common courtesy. You're trying to weasel around "blah blah why don't we credit HTC and Google" which is sheer, utter, retarded straw man. We know who developed Android by implication unless you live under a rock. Not so with specific individual community contributions.
Besides, what did KK even do? All I saw in the N1 development section from him was ROMs based off other people's work slightly modified, or rubbish that never worked like his attempt to port Blur. I say good riddance. The fact that he managed to scam donations off people hardly helps his case. I'd sooner donate to the source/original contributors, not such a juvenile, plagiarizing, useless waste of oxygen.
Root bounties have become increasingly popular and seem like a great way to draw specialized attention to our cause.
I'm considering starting a root bounty for the G2 (I'd toss in a few bucks myself to kick it off).
Thoughts? If enough people +1 this (I don't need you to pledge dollar amounts, but don't +1 if you wouldn't definitely donate at least $1) I'll make a paypal account that people can drop cash into.
UPDATE
I closed the paypal account as it had received $0 since my initial $5 deposit. Kickstarter declined our request for a new project. Consider this effort dead.
+$20 for root
Match $20!
However, I'm hoping I can get some direction on rooting via OSX. All the root directions seem to be for windows only.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
I'll pledge $50
I want root as much as anyone but don't you think the day after the official release is a little soon to be offering a bounty? Again, I don't object, I'm just a fan of letting the natural process take place
I can pitch in 20.
I hope that everyone who makes a pledge actually follows through...
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Jorsher said:
I can pitch in 20.
I hope that everyone who makes a pledge actually follows through...
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
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Agreed; pledges mean little. Due to the quick and positive responses, I'm creating the paypal account now. I understand the concern people may have that I'll run off with the dough.
The only relevant resume items I have that may quell this fear are:
I'm a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer. I didn't go volunteer in the 3rd world for 2.5 years to get rich.
I'm a long-time contributor to the FreeBSD project; my name is listed on the contributor page.
"ChrisSoyars: http://bit.ly/d7sL1n need I say more?"
4 minutes ago via TweetDeck
**Edit** It was fake
Ghostcreamy said:
Match $20!
However, I'm hoping I can get some direction on rooting via OSX. All the root directions seem to be for windows only.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
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I can work on that for you. I triple boot my macbook pro, windoze 7, osx, and ubuntu 10.10, I have adb in all three and use em to root phones at work for my coworkers. They offer money but I say "no, I can't accept $, I'm just one techie helping another" then they feel bad and buy me lunch! Works everytime! Lol
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
LxDroid said:
"ChrisSoyars: http://bit.ly/d7sL1n need I say more?"
4 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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The most beautiful picture I've seen in a LONG time...
Thanks for that.
****, please dont judge me but I can only pledge $5. I certainly will follow through though.
Once again.. poor 19 year old full time college student here ! All my money goes to food and books.
LxDroid said:
"ChrisSoyars: http://bit.ly/d7sL1n need I say more?"
4 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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it's fake: http://twitter.com/ChrisSoyars/status/26560334096
damnit
http://twitter.com/ChrisSoyars/status/26560334096#
"ChrisSoyars: I feel bad, that was just a full screenshot of clockwork. But progress is being made Had to troll, just had to."
That is the saddest news I've heard in a LONG time.
I edited the OP with paypal info. Donate at your leisure...
I think this is premature...... odds are the same methods will work on the G2 as well.
Give them some time to actually get the phone... lol
Nothing wrong with supporting your developers and hackers... but I'm sure it will be done quickly.
Weaseal said:
Agreed; pledges mean little. Due to the quick and positive responses, I'm creating the paypal account now. I understand the concern people may have that I'll run off with the dough.
The only relevant resume items I have that may quell this fear are:
I'm a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer. I didn't go volunteer in the 3rd world for 2.5 years to get rich.
I'm a long-time contributor to the FreeBSD project; my name is listed on the contributor page.
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I recommend we use something like kickstarter dot com
Basically the pledges only go through if the project meets its goal, if it doesnt nobody gets charged anything.
Expect some from me later today or tomorrow.
I hope others donate as motivation for more people to jump on.
thefitzman said:
I recommend we use something like kickstarter dot com
Basically the pledges only go through if the project meets its goal, if it doesnt nobody gets charged anything.
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I'm fine with this; the method matters little to me. I haven't used this site before. I'll investigate it this afternoon (2 hour meeting coming up shortly).
R1lover said:
I think this is premature...... odds are the same methods will work on the G2 as well.
Give them some time to actually get the phone... lol
Nothing wrong with supporting your developers and hackers... but I'm sure it will be done quickly.
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Same methods do not work, which is the whole problem.
Rule 8: donations up front are not allowed
to quote the mod "asking for donations up-front"
The phrase "if you donate you can have this rom" was never said Someone asked the dev what the public release date would be and he stated 3-4 days. I guess they always have to keep a secret when the releases are.
Seems pretty straight forward. However I fail to see how "established developer with lengthy public release list and contibutions to the scene, rewards the people who, with no pre-knowledege that something might come of it or with any purpose except to say thanks for the work you have already done it is great, helped him with donations so he layed out a beta release for them a few days early."
Maybe we need to change the official XDA rules or make an amendment or something that says. "If at any point ever you release something that does not leave every person with an equal opportunity to download it, barring complications due to persons being on differing Internet Providers, any threads pertaining to this download or the children of this download will be closed and will be looked into to determine if banning is necessary.
That way if any developer feels especially close to his biggest fans and wants to throw them a bonus to really show his appreciation he wont even think of doing any kind or pre release.
Edit: Can someone please post what rule the dev broke? Someone has already posted that he is well with the GPL and I am saying he is well within rule 8
EDIT2: I WOULD LOVE A MOD TO COME HERE AND TRY TO CLARIFY/JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS
damn that thread was closed ima wait to install it till its reopened
do not bar this awesome rom
lately i see that the xda team are coming down hard on epic developers. i wonder if there is something else going on...oops, i hope that no one banes me
BRING EPIC EXPERIENCE BACK
ericizzy1 said:
lately i see that the xda team are coming down hard on epic developers. i wonder if there is something else going on...oops, i hope that no one banes me
BRING EPIC EXPERIENCE BACK
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I don't think it is the only one. I thought I remember reading that if Hero's backedsnack had a public releases the thread would be opened here however there is definitely a great 1.3 public release, Rom and Kernel with many things other roms don't have and the thread here is definitely not open.
Wow. I almost mentioned this to him yesterday but figured it must've been within the rules. I know there are lots of different apps/roms on here that go out early to donators, so what's the difference? I assume it's based on him stating publicly that it will go out early to donators?
Glad I got my donation in and download link in my mailbox! Epic Experience is really the only ROM worth running on the Epic right now.
Funny how when I was in the Hero forum this was common practice, and even exposed to the staff here and nothing was done.
If you did not donate, you did not get the ROM until the public release was announced. I don't see why this is a big problem? People develop and take time from their busy lives to make roms, why not ask for donations, and give the people who donate special perks?
Because it's not a donation if you have to pay for it to get it.
Let's say you go to one of those car washes...you know, with the 16 year old girls in skimpy bathing suits with the sign, Donations Only. Now, you pull up there and expect a car wash, but they tell you that you have to pay before they'll even start anything. Not knowing how good a job they'll do, you have no idea how much you'd want to pay them so, because you don't want to pay until it's done, they send you to the back of the line until they make enough money to open it to everyone.
Say one guy pays $15 to that donation and, although the view of their supple, tight breasts smashed against his windshield is highly stimulating, they do little to the car but smear mud all over and leave streaks on the window. They're done now. Great show, but that's not why he came to the car wash. He regrets giving that money now because he drives away with blue balls and a dirty car. Not worth the "donation".
Donations are something given for products/services received up front, otherwise, it's called a charge.
Now take that car wash, ask for a $5 donation up front to have your cash washed now, or wait a week and have to deal with the lines (low bandwith) of being able to have your car washed for free.
Same concept. Its not a charge, its a donation. Because you don't HAVE to donate to be able to download it. The public will be able to download it, just a few days down the road.
I am not to familiar with whats going on as I don't use that rom..but from my understanding he does make the rom publicly available...the only advantage donators get are support and early access to the beta.
I do not see an issue with that in itself...as you can try the rom and everyone has access to it..but with "betas" its up to the author how to handle distribution of it...
THE GPL states
"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things."
Aka he has the right to charge for distribution according to the GPL..but once obtained a person is free to share the beta to everyone else if they choose.
I personally do not see a problem in that respect..of course if its a violation os a different rule thats another story.
scriz said:
Now take that car wash, ask for a $5 donation up front to have your cash washed now, or wait a week and have to deal with the lines (low bandwith) of being able to have your car washed for free.
Same concept. Its not a charge, its a donation. Because you don't HAVE to donate to be able to download it. The public will be able to download it, just a few days down the road.
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Again. It's not a donation, you're saying "This car wash costs $5."
We have a vending machine at work. It costs 60 cents for a candy bar. But if we wait a month or so, they'll be placed on the kitchen table for free. Is that 60 cents a donation or a cost?
Just because it will be free later does not mean it's not a cost now.
This is okay with me: "Hey, I'm charging whatever you want to pay to get my ROM before anyone else! After I release it to the general public, they can feel free to donate what they feel it's worth."
That is apparently not okay with XDA which is the whole point of the thread. I didn't want to get too far off topic with semantics and my personal feelings.
Grow up xda
Want my advice, of course not but I will post it anyway cause I am waiting for a 30 minute rip file and dont need to read on the can.
Slap him on the wrist, remind him of the rule and move the hell on. This is a DEV doing good things. I dont agree with your rule, all he did was post a day or two early for his supporters, its not like a public release was not coming at all. But I do agree that if you have a rule you then need to enforce it or think about changing the stupid thing.
Seems to me like XDA is becoming a little too militant. Thats all right, these forum sites come and go with change.
Last thing.
I hate criticizing or supporting rules without exposing loopholes (Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies). Here's what I would do as the dev.
1. Follow the friggin' rules.
2. Make a post such as "Having troubles with the newest Beta for XXX ROM"
3. Ardent followers will recognize that ROM and ask why they don't have it
4. The OP (secondary account for the dev or a friend) will explain it's a paid beta (or "required donation" beta if you prefer) of XXXX user's ROM and can contact him here: [email protected] or however you guys do it.
5. "BUT I DON'T WANNA PAY!!!" Well, I think the dev mentioned it will be open to all on XX/XX/XXXX and he'll make a post when it's freely available as per the rules.
Ta-da. Totally within the rules to ask for assistance on ROMs even when others may or may not have them.
And don't lie. Ever. There is never a reason to lie. Dev, put a small, easily noticed and easily fixed bug in your ROM so it's a legitimate post.
People willing to buy an early beta are happy. XDA is happy. Moderators are happy.
othan1 said:
Again. It's not a donation, you're saying "This car wash costs $5."
We have a vending machine at work. It costs 60 cents for a candy bar. But if we wait a month or so, they'll be placed on the kitchen table for free. Is that 60 cents a donation or a cost?
Just because it will be free later does not mean it's not a cost now.
This is okay with me: "Hey, I'm charging whatever you want to pay to get my ROM before anyone else! After I release it to the general public, they can feel free to donate what they feel it's worth."
That is apparently not okay with XDA which is the whole point of the thread. I didn't want to get too far off topic with semantics and my personal feelings.
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Hi will i normally agree with you and take a pretty strict stance on the line between donation and cost. In this rom situation I do not agree. First off yes you are paying for that candy bar. However most car washes like that call it a donation because the driver picks the amount. So the only important thing we can take from that example is that for it to be a donation the donator has to have full control over the amount he wants to give.
Also the car wash is a pretty poor analogy with way to many holes to be meaningful. That car wash doesn't have a previous track record of being free but just for this one superwash you get it a little early. In addition, the car wash doesn't have a set release schedule for a stated timetable. Also another reason for the carwash it is called a donation is becuase you are directly giving money to some "charity" whether it be a real charity or a made up one like giving money so we can go to volleyball state championship. Either way you are donating money to that "charity" then they are washing your car sexily. Lastly the solicit the car wash "cost" of a donation up front.
The most important thing though is to look at the situation. Go back anytime last month and look at the state of things. The first thing the dev did was release a rom to the forums, it started gaining in popularity. Then he released some updates, bugfixes and general tweaks. The rom kept getting better and better and faithful users decided that they wanted to inspire the dev to keep up his good work so numurous people, me included, donated. Now I have only been moved to donated 3 times before, to the xda site, and since I was on a touchpro2 to NRG and MightyMike. In every instance I have donated because the people have provided with a very good product that has greatly improved my experience on my phone. Back to the story, We all donated, the dev never asked for it as payment to the rom, the roms were always available, heck there is nearly a 2 month back catalog, and I am sure there are people out there that will swear that each and every release has the best battery, or the best that, etc. So now the dev has a huge update, He has never publicly stated that he is releasing the rom as an early release and an awesome email ends up in my inbox, which can be considered nothing more than a thank you for your support. He has never stated that he is going to continue releasing roms early to donators or if it is a one time deal. Unless the dev makes a statement about it the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that he will continue to release his rom normally but if he has a huge .1 update then maybe those "benchmark" roms will be release a little early. Since that is the current case.
If someone was to put up a phantom thread with no downloads and start asking for donations for proposed things, get rid of them. That is clearly not the case here.
I don't agree with xda in this.. schizo is a great dev with a great rom and it is fully available to the public for free. Schizo never even brought up the new release in his thread until the donators thanked him for it. Bad move xda for coming down on a dev that's just taking care of his loyal supporters.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
I have no prob with early releases, but him posting in his thread about the features of an unreleased public rom is considered a teaser and that is why the mods shut him down.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
othan1 said:
Last thing.
I hate criticizing or supporting rules without exposing loopholes (Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies). Here's what I would do as the dev.
1. Follow the friggin' rules.
2. Make a post such as "Having troubles with the newest Beta for XXX ROM"
3. Ardent followers will recognize that ROM and ask why they don't have it
4. The OP (secondary account for the dev or a friend) will explain it's a paid beta (or "required donation" beta if you prefer) of XXXX user's ROM and can contact him here: [email protected] or however you guys do it.
5. "BUT I DON'T WANNA PAY!!!" Well, I think the dev mentioned it will be open to all on XX/XX/XXXX and he'll make a post when it's freely available as per the rules.
Ta-da. Totally within the rules to ask for assistance on ROMs even when others may or may not have them.
And don't lie. Ever. There is never a reason to lie. Dev, put a small, easily noticed and easily fixed bug in your ROM so it's a legitimate post.
People willing to buy an early beta are happy. XDA is happy. Moderators are happy.
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Click to collapse
Thats exactly what happened in the thread, and exactly the point I was trying to get across.
He never said 'donate and you'll get the early releases!!'
The mods on here are independent people and pretty much do whatever the hell they want, so the mod in the Epic forum might be more tight-holed than the one in say, the Hero forum. Where donate-to-get early is the norm.
Well I truly hope the rules at xda are changed or reworded becuase if things are continually enforced that are not in the rules that sounds like a military state.
Man! Speaking of rules I hope ur like 16-17 yourself. Otherwise those are some pedophile type hypotheticals.... lol!
othan1 said:
Because it's not a donation if you have to pay for it to get it.
Let's say you go to one of those car washes...you know, with the 16 year old girls in skimpy bathing suits with the sign, Donations Only. Now, you pull up there and expect a car wash, but they tell you that you have to pay before they'll even start anything. Not knowing how good a job they'll do, you have no idea how much you'd want to pay them so, because you don't want to pay until it's done, they send you to the back of the line until they make enough money to open it to everyone.
Say one guy pays $15 to that donation and, although the view of their supple, tight breasts smashed against his windshield is highly stimulating, they do little to the car but smear mud all over and leave streaks on the window. They're done now. Great show, but that's not why he came to the car wash. He regrets giving that money now because he drives away with blue balls and a dirty car. Not worth the "donation".
Donations are something given for products/services received up front, otherwise, it's called a charge.
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Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Rather then changing the rules..I think they should set a presidents on what way it would be considered ok to do this.
One comment on something that was said in the thread that got closed. A few posters there complained about charging for something that's GPL'ed. Actually, it's totally, unambiguously, and 100% legal to charge for things that are GPL'ed. It's also totally, unambiguously, and 100% legal for anyone who acquires a copy of it to turn around and redistribute it -- for free, or for money.
The GPL2 requires that Schiz license his changes under the same terms. So, anybody who donates and downloads the beta release acquires a license to use it under the GPL2. Likewise, the GPL2 requires that Schiz make the source available to those specific users. The GPL2 does NOT require that Schiz bend over backwards to immediately make his changes instantly available for free to the general public. Or ever make them available for free to the general public at all. Officially, you don't become a licensee of Schiz' changes until you either a) donate, and download it from him, or b) he posts it publicly and you download it from wherever he puts it. HOWEVER, the GPL2 also entitles anyone who acquires a copy of Schiz's changes to redistribute them independently of Schiz.
That's the check and balance. If 10 users feel poor/stingy and want to split the cost of a donation so one can grab it and give copies to everyone else, it's 100% legit and legal under the GPL. It would be equally legal for Schiz to get mad and refuse to answer questions from anyone he caught doing that, because the GPL only conveys the right to obtain the source and redistribute it. The GPL conveys no right to tech support. The fact that something is legal doesn't necessarily mean others have to regard it as good and morally acceptable. You have every right to regard someone as an immoral asshole for doing something that's nevertheless completely legal. Big corporations do things that are technically legal every day, and get excoriated for it by Slashdot users on a regular basis
Suppose I use GPL'ed source to develop an internal app used by a major corporation. There's NO requirement that the source to that internal app ever be made available to anyone outside the company, since only the company is the licensee of the modified code. The only time the source has to be made available to anyone outside the company is if the app ends up getting used in an app used by the company's own customers. That's where lots of big companies get into trouble... they'll use GPL'ed code for years for internal vertical-market apps, then slip it into a publicly-released client app without realizing the licensing implications of doing so until it's too late.
Giving another example, it would be absolutely 100% legal for Tivo to charge customers $100 to upgrade to a newer version of their software. However, under GPL2, it would be 100% legal for anyone who paid $100 for it to redistribute it to others -- Tivo-owning or not. Where the GPL2 and GPL3 differ is that under the GPL2, it's entirely legal for Tivo to respond by making their hardware refuse to allow the upgrade unless you also present it with a valid license code. However, even in the case of the GPL3, the intent of the GPL isn't necessarily to enable anyone to take Tivo's software and build his own Tivo from scratch -- it's to guarantee Tivo owners the freedom to hack and modify their own Tivo to better meet their own individual needs and improve it beyond what Tivo itself is willing/able to do.
The point is that the GPL doesn't quite mean what many people believe it does, and in some contexts the distinction between GPL2 and GPL3 are very important. Android is actually Apache-licensed, but because it's inextricably bundled with Linux, it's effectively governed by the GPL2 as well (for the most part).
I have a web server that I no longer use. Plenty Gb's of storage and far to much bandwidth.
I wanted to create a website for developers who don't have websites to have a space to host a website and their creations. I also wish to turn it into a website that holds those backups of apps to restore. (think of that Super User upgrade that would FC constantly).
If anyone has any ideas or would like their work for android hosted/need a website or forum for their work pm me on here or email me at [email protected]
I have taken down the website entirely, cleaned out the storage and is now ready for this project if it ever gets off the ground.
If you have something you would like to be hosted or to have backups available pm or email me with the information of the creator (just in case permission is needed).
If you also know a developer and that he or she would like this offer or information just tell him/her to email [email protected]
Pretty much free hosting for the android community. Something I can do to help out those developers out there.
And a thank you to all those developers out there. Thank you for all your hard work.
Haven't seen you in a while, but thanks for this.
True I had a bunch of finals to deal with and then my grandfather past away. But my offer stands for pretty much the entire android community as long as it relates to development.
But I am back and ready to fill the XDA community with my helpful comments :}
cmsjr123 said:
True I had a bunch of finals to deal with and then my grandfather past away. But my offer stands for pretty much the entire android community as long as it relates to development.
But I am back and ready to fill the XDA community with my helpful comments :}
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Well at least you have you priorities...I have 1 more trimester left, and sorry for your loss.
teh roxxorz said:
Well at least you have you priorities...I have 1 more trimester left, and sorry for your loss.
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Ya I have 2 semesters left and a summer semester.
And thanks for saying that.. it was a week before Christmas 2 like wth haha.
Anyways school first but in spare time Android Community ^.^.
got to get some support things up maybe php tickets or something.
My team may be interested when we are all on tomorrow we will see if everyone's down with it and one of us will pm u right now we are using a 50gb box account to share our work amongst ourselves since alot of it isn't ready for release yet would be kinda cool to have a site up tho where ppl can sign up for beta testing and give us input without having to post all our pre alphas and betas in xdas threads
Sent from my iCS'd out EViL4G, soaking in a bowl of Ramen Noodles
-EViL-KoNCEPTz- said:
My team may be interested when we are all on tomorrow we will see if everyone's down with it and one of us will pm u right now we are using a 50gb box account to share our work amongst ourselves since alot of it isn't ready for release yet would be kinda cool to have a site up tho where ppl can sign up for beta testing and give us input without having to post all our pre alphas and betas in xdas threads
Sent from my iCS'd out EViL4G, soaking in a bowl of Ramen Noodles
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Click to collapse
Alright I'll give you details on the information (if all of you decide to )as it would be a lot easier for you all to collaborate work with a team FTP account :} forums/support tickets etc.
PM or [email protected]
cmsjr123.com has a brief short ugly intro page.. text on a white background.. But it gets the point across. With a blog soon for all of you to comment on.
cmsjr123.com now has the information to get started on if interested in my hosting offer.
This page is dedicated to make a stable ICS-JB for the Motorola Atrix
Brief history about the project:
- Un unstable ICS for Motorola Atrix was leaked
- Developers worked on integrating kernel and drivers into existing build
- Kernel was found to be very unstable and new kernel is being ported to Atrix
- While we wait for the kernel, an ICS CM9 build is ready for anyone willing to join the challenge
Next step:
- Developers should get involved in fixing/enhancing the current build
- Code submission is done by forwarding the changes to the head development team for inclusion
Build source code is all available to anyone willing to participate. The build process follows CyanogenMOD builds.
Source Code location: https://github.com/MROM/android/tree/ics
Curent Team:
Project Managers: marcovrv and R3PL1C/\NT.
Head Developers: Epinter, MMontuori, and TPoint75.
Kernel developers: mvniekerk
Developers: Hayander, scanuto, ravilov, geleiahp, alberto88a, tachospeedo, Isaygarcia, digidrops, fanfantasy, hainguyen273, and caster62003.
Testers/Advanced Users: Carcara, EkzoMan, EMG92, Hayander, BusWah, Girafik, clockworkninja, rspaulo, Bravo9000, vigremrajesh, jlm-familiar, The-Milkybar-Kid, r3xx3r, ovitz, lightlord, ticiano_arraes, reix2x, Nargyle, diegofdg, shabeepk, pixut, Kaworu33, jhonnyx, Haxornator, fanhtc2, julian_fern, iximedaixi, heibailife, shadowed87, Matada02, Zeljko1234, tatperson, dibi91, NemeZZiZZ, Moonshield, bimasakti85, Cocolopes, Pont91, jeanpiere, pre4speed, jeffreygtab, nachobkcc, BravoMotorola and littleemp.
Without help, this project cannot continue.
Count me in for Rebirth
mmontuori said:
Dear fellow Atrix owners,
We all know by now that Motorola has cancelled the plans for upgrading to ICS, I was hoping myself to get the new drivers to update my own rom to ICS or JB. Well, this is not going to happen...
What do we do now?
We can either assume this is the death of this revolutionary device, or work on the Re-Birth. You probably know, but there are a group of developers working on upgrading the current Gingerbread version to ICS or JB. I am personally one of them...
We all need your help... we are donating our precious time and resources to make the Atrix 4G a better device that could last for another year or two, however, alone, we cannot continue with this...
WE NEED YOUR HELP...
If you are still reading this message, good, now it's time to decide if the Atrix is going to die in the couple of months or live for some time. We are looking for:
- People that can write code and troubleshoot (Android Java and C/C++)
- Testers
- Project managers (believe it ICS or JB is a full SDLC project)
- Android Advanced users not too scared of trying something new on their phones
- Donate Atrix Devices that you no longer need
- Of course, donations to at least justify the amount if time we spend on this
- If I forgot something, please reply to this thread with suggections
Again, you decide DEATH or RE-BIRTH
Take Care
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It is certainly great to see commitment of this kind. I'm no DEV nor do i possess programming skills which could assist you. But please feel free to count me in as a tester and advanced user, more than willing to get his feet wet .
I will glady donate, as should others who wish to revive this device that surely isnt really outdated
I would love to be a tester and advanced user. I have 2 atrixes, so I can test to any extent on one of them. I would donate one but I need to have my main atrix as a backup to the s2 I am in the process of buying. So my backup backup is there for testing anything and everything needed.
I would have no problem in donating except I don't see anyone claiming that it is at all realistically possible to get the full ICS experience in our phones (meaning hardware acceleration and working camcorder). If that changes, I'd be happy to donate to keep my phone alive, but if it's just going to be another dissapointing waiting game with no outcome...
PS: Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rain on your parade or be an ungrateful bastard as I do really appreciate the work all of you devs put on this. I'd be happy to give money for a bounty.
i'd personally donate 50 dollars to the cause of keeping our phones alive. probably more as time went on as well, just to keep the project alive.
i would also be willing to test ANYTHING on my Atrix, as i have plans of replacing it soon anyways. the fingerprint scanner doesn't work anymore, and the touchscreen is dying.
I'm JUST NOW getting an Atrix and a Lapdock, a little late I know But count me as an advanced user willing to test anything. I hope to get webtop (In non-blur roms) working above all else, unfortunately since moto isn't willing to comply, that is also the most difficult task.
- Android Advanced users not too scared of trying something new on their phones
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Count on me!
Love the intiative :fingers-crossed: I don't have any technical skills to share, but I'm willing to test and assist in any other way that I can.
Maybe we should get this posted on the Photon forums as well to consolidate the project?
Would you be able to develop a 3.x kernel?
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
Tester and advance user!...
from the (m)ATRIX...
mmontuori said:
Dear fellow Atrix owners,
- People that can write code and troubleshoot (Android Java and C/C++)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One more developer ready here !
So you want to build a real ICS/JB ROM for Atrix?
Including a 3.x kernel, hardware acceleration and maybe working webtop?
If at least the first two things apply I would gladly donate for this one.:good:
nachobkcc said:
Count on me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 :good:
You guys can count on me as a tester and advanced user!
Sent from my beloved Atrix
Android/Java developer over here. (Also some knowledge in C/C++)
Contact me via : [email protected]
---------- Post added at 01:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 AM ----------
Android/Java developer over here. (Also some knowledge in C/C++)
Contact me via : [email protected]
If there is something i can do that doesn't take me a very lot of time (because of the for-a-life work)
This is possible but requires more than a couple of devs working close together to make it come true. And ofcourse, it will spend us certain time for fix the problem of Nvidia named Tegra2 by re-developing a brandnew driver for our device.
Once this mission completed, we can completely go further ahead to open up other attractive projects on this worth device
Definitely advanced user and tester. Have strong experience on tech related project management, just not on software development projects. Novice on java, almost intermediate on C, advanced in Pascal (dead language I know), but I think I'm a quick learner.
Have a "real" job, so time is limited but can arrange something. Just tell me where I can help.
m.rodriguez<at>computer.org
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
I am honored to be a member of this community!
Not a dev or a programmer here, but will do anything I can to give support.
Thank you all!
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
I have some experience in Java, C/C++, the Android Framework and I am willing to learn more. But I also think, a project management is necessary to order issues, make possibilities clear, have a big picture, sharing knowledge. So, when you start, drop a message.