Database Users

Question about an invention...

Ok. I have this idea that could make millions of dollars if pitched correctly. This invention would work for the Kaiser and many other phone manufacterers but I'll just stick to WM platform for now. How would I be able to get developers to help out on it without the fear of it getting stolen?

I'm currently looking into getting a patent. Any recommendations other than that to safeguard my idea?

i guess you can never trust people in this kind of things. one thing you could do is to find some people that will sign some kind of contract and then make this contract official (find some lawyer to make this contract for you and approve it)

Thanks dude. I'm saving some money so I can hire a lawyer and get paperwork straight. This idea is genius and practical. I just needed the help of some genius developers too. Didn't want to spill the info but wanted some re-assurance.

I was thinking about something.
You hear people suing people over a song that they originally created. The funny thing is that the lawsuit comes up when the song becomes popular and rakes in millions. That's a smart thing. I mean if my idea ever got stolen. Anways any lawyers on this forum. Any idea of the cost of getting this into contract and patented?

if this idea of yours got anything to do with wm i guess you can find quality developers here on xda. just search and find developers that created software somehow related to your idea (same developing tools used, same environment...).
as for the costs, i got no idea and it depends on country you are in. but the costs can not exceed the profit if plans are realistic. so, all you need to know is how sure are you that the idea is good, possible to realize, has market and things like this. you also need to know that you must invest if you wan't to make a profit.
my advise to you is that you reconsider your idea and it's realism and then if you really believe in idea and yourself just go for it. the point is that you must be sure in what you are doing and do it in right time. as people say, time is money.
p.s.: i would suggest you to find some moderator and ask him to move this thread in some more relevant forum (some in general forums) as there you have more chance to get some reply

Here is what I would do first off -
I would describe the entire project and then mail it to myself registered mail and do NOT open the envelope. This will be your proof that you had the idea on this date as you describe it in the note.
Bill

whk said:
Here is what I would do first off -
I would describe the entire project and then mail it to myself registered mail and do NOT open the envelope. This will be your proof that you had the idea on this date as you describe it in the note.
Bill
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But this has absolutely no value in case you need to go to court.
What has is the date you file a patent application with a brief summary of the idea. The best is to to that ASAP. After that, you have about one year to formulate the exact patent text highlighting the exact key points that can apply for a patent (that are considered innovative) and that you want to protect. This will then have to be approved, and then (this can be months/years later) the patent is active and you can start suing potential copiers. BUT, the important point is that the date you filed the application on is the one that is valid in case someone else files another patent on the same subject, the one applying first wins. Note that nothing of it can be made public before this is done or everything is void.
It should cost a couple of thousand $ to get the application done, then once your patent is accepted the amount you need to pay depends on the number of countries you want to protect it in, and can reach $10k or more per country per year.
I have filed a patent application myself about 2 years ago, and that 1 year delay to file the definitive text was enough to convince me that the move was just useless. But my idea doesn't make millions anyway.
Personally for something that is software-based, as an individual, if the idea is really good and has a lot of potential I'd just file an application to have that first filing date in case really needed, but I guess I wouldn't go further. The problem is above - you need to choose the countries the idea is protected in. For software, if you don't go worldwide then all it would take to someone wanting to copy you would be to open an office in one of the countries you didn't list and start spreading his copy from there without you being able to do anything against it, but still having paid the patent a fair lot that is now lost...
Note that all of this is my experience and what I've learned from it - I'm no lawyer and you should still ask advice from one to take the right decisions. It's valid for international protection, if you're in the US and want to file a US only patent things are simpler and go faster from what I've heard.

kilrah said:
But this has absolutely no value in case you need to go to court...snip...
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Very little has any value in court.
I have spent $60,000.00 defending software written by me. It was obvious that the person violating the software had deeper pockets than we did and could simply tie us up in legal maneuvers forever - we simply had to quit prosecuting.
Bill

I have run my own company for 30 years. Now let me get this straight, you have an idea but want everyone else to develop it for you, so you can make millions. Does that sum it up?
People only steal and misappropriate when they feel (rightly/wrongly) that they are getting taken advantage of to line someone else's pockets.
"I deserve all the money because it was my idea," doesn't cut it. Make people feel they are helping themselves as much as you. Give them a fair share and they will work hard and be honest.
Now before you nay sayers start telling me I live in a fantasy world, as I said up front ,I've been doing it for thirty years.
Oh yeah, and keep a real good eye on the Ledgers.

gqstatus0685 said:
Thanks dude. I'm saving some money so I can hire a lawyer and get paperwork straight. This idea is genius and practical. I just needed the help of some genius developers too. Didn't want to spill the info but wanted some re-assurance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hire someone.

Ok. I wasn't saying that I was going to get all the money. Obviosly If I hired some developers from this site I would state in contract what the terms would be and what everyone's share would be. I'd doubt a developer would work on a project blindly without knowing what they were going to get out of it. I just wanted information and once I get all this sorted out then I can speak on the project. It is for windows mobile and could be used by millions of people in different professions.

My Letter to Dan Morrill

so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)

I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.

Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw

yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.

Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.

I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.

this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.

Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.

And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.

irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.

If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one

I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.

The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.

Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.

Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.

Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.

Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
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Click to collapse
About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?

nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...

MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave

[A THOUGHT] Copying in an Open Community

Android is open. That's why I have my Samsung Galaxy S, my Nexus One and my Sapphire.
I have these phones because the open community can do better than the professionals, and I am proud to be a member of a community that has recently hacked Froyo onto the G1, Android2HD2 (and other Winmo devices), created great skins and themes, rooted almost every droid to date, hacked google navigation to work in other countries etc etc etc.
There is amazing work being done is this community.
Kingklick was able to put out a lot of ROMs which satisfied a lot of people. Contributors to Cyanogenmod (disclaimer. notably not Cyanogen himself) and others (fans and friends - disclaimer. note lack of word fanboys - of cyanogenmod, disclaimer. plus some others too) have flamed and flamed away about Kangklick (notably via twitter - I have stopped following any of those jerks that clogged up my feeds with what could've - screw that - should've been settled MUCH more privately..I followed you guys for dev news or the occasional interesting insight into your real life, not your petty bickering, but you have every right to post what you like...hence why I stopped following you all, I didn't flame you...note 'bigger man').
Rule 12 of XDArules clearly states that using the work of others must be done with permission, independent of whether it is open source or not. If this is not upheld then the post will be bought down, it does not say the user will be banned. I would understand the formality of taking the post down and requesting Kingklick reposts the ROM with due credit, but I believe - note believe...implies opinion - that moderators may have been influenced by pressure from other (high ranking, public eye) members and thus did not adhere to normal or just (I do not know if not giving creds is normally treated in this way, but you will discover I believe it shouldn't be) protacol. Kingklick broke the rules of XDA, but then again I see his banning as the least contentious issue here.
I believe that members of the XDA community in the public eye (ie with large Twitter follower base) due to their work via XDA (no matter what you say, cyanogenmod may be based at its own domain, but it still posts at XDA to maintain its public profile and feed of the massive XDA userbase, and is hence in part bound by this) have a responsibility to follow the rules of XDA on XDA rules and disputes. I do not think this is something which can be policed ('I'm banning you Wes for Trolling Kingklick...on Twitter'... not gonna work) but I think it is a moral obligation (anyone that thinks the internet is not bound by morality should take a reality check...the reason why we have open source is essentially ethics).
Do we give credit to Linus Torvalds every time we distribute linux kernels or work to do with linux? Do we give credit to those that helped him create this base? Do we give credit to Google for creating Android? HTC? Our carriers? Martin Cooper for inventing the mobile phone and cell networks? Time Berners-Lee for inventing the internet, giving rise to this forum, Google and thus the Phones/Devices we love and use? The fact is we don't give credit where due (although you may say its obscure to thank these people, they DO deserve our thanks). None of the ROM chefs/coders give all credit where due, but a lot do in part, with those directly involved. But who still thanks the original rooters?
Kingklick has been declared a copier by the jury...I haven't delved through the evidence to confirm this...but shouldn't we be much more relaxed about copying in general? All users should be open about their work with Android, but they are not. If kingklick based a build off Cyanongenmod, and gave due credit for that, he would be called unoriginal, despite his attempts to make improvements. I also believe that there should be transparency, a log of all complaints of interest and the community told in a statement from the mods why someone was banned...at least in part (keeping gory details to themselves thank you very much).
Donations are generally given by 'end-users'...noobs who can flash and maybe do some work on the builds but their contributions are limited. End users generally want user experience, and reward devs with commendation and donations. If kingklick does work on a build which satisfies more users and he hence gets donations, is that stealing donations? No. The original dev works on an open source project knowing that their work is open, but the end user can reward as he/she likes. Perhaps kingklick developed his following due to his branding...he did always use words like FAST and STABLE and SMOOTH, but Apple do the same and they're not banned from trading despite the hyperbole.
I do not doubt that a lot of devs thanks fellow devs with donations. Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick, however a lot of donations come from end users, and if kingklick replaces a few files using winrar (something which I generally contest, I believe kingklick does a lot of great work) and that satisfies more end users by being fast and stable and smooth (or perceived as being so thanks to branding) then he can get donations for that, they are a gesture of satisfaction and goodwill.
Kingklick was immoral by not giving true credit, however I believe that he could have been warned and asked to give credit once he got back from his night out (whether that excuse, or what ever his actual excuse was, was true).
I also laugh at the accusation that kingklick does not fill a niche within the 'open'/'free' community. This should not result in grudges and flame wars, whether it is true or not. Kingklick did fill a niche in my opinion: reviewers (and consumers) see vanilla android as being sterile. Hell it is sterile, and it's never going to be as successful as others if it doesn't sort this out. Cyanogenmod and other big names are based off this sterile form of Android, but they don't delve into Sense UI and other alternative skins, mainly due to preferences or copyright problems etc, not that that stops them with other things. Kingklick did work with these and he filled his niche by delivering great, fast, usable roms of these whilst others sneered at them for being inefficient coding or whatever...geeky snobbery.
Kingklick also delivered various fixes and things which other groups did not. I won't list all of these and I am sure representatives of Cyanogenmob et al will say 'we were gonna fix these issues anyways' or 'that's redundant' or 'that was patchy code', but kingklick has contributed. Obviously we have to hold ethics above output, we can not say that 'his holiness' (inteneded to mock those who believe cyanogen alone is a god, not cyanogen himself) Cyanogen's contributions to android exempt him from following conduct, but we do a great job of driving away good developers with flaming and telling tales. Perhaps you'll say kingklick was not a good developer, Drizzy, even Haykuro etc etc, but I only flashed Cyanogenmod on my Nexus once and I didn't like it for various reasons (personal preference yada yada) but I kept going back for more kingklick...whether that's perceived speed and branding etc or just satisfaction.
King's desire roms are great, but we never mobbed, trolled and banned the poor guy for not giving creds to HTC. Surely the morality of our community using software like Rosie on the Nexus is more ethically questionable than a fellow member of XDA's work, since HTC is a firm which employs people. I bought a Nexus over the Desire because I knew I could still have Sense and a bigger dev community, however the cost included in the Desire which goes to the developers of Sense is hence forgone (perhaps indeirectly, I don;t know HTC internal funding); therefore I have - and anyone who has ever flashed a Sense ROM or devved with Sense - indirectly caused loss of welfare for people who rely of developing as their source of income, tehir families, communities and economies. Surely that is less ethical than not saying thank you, but XDA has no problem with that. Perhaps it is too small to notice, but it will have an indirect impact nonetheless.
Yes kingklick should've said his please and thank you, but I think it's community hyped double standards, pretensical courtesy (not that I wouldn't give creds, it's just that pleases and thank yous are nice, but not actually useful). A wise man once said 'there is no threshold for immorality', just because kingklick did a larger 'crime' than the rest of the community in not giving his thanks out, that does not exempt the other rule breakers (ie everyone), it just means their punishment should be less severe...we choose to ignore it because it's less direct or forgotten about.
In conclusion, I think we should start a 'contributors to Android' part of XDA, added to by mods or specifically appointed members of the community (like the portal). This could be informative and could mean that forgotten about contributors could not be forgotten, but their contributions immortalised in the open community of Android. Even if the contributions become redundant, they are the foundations for the next chapter in the Android story.
Finally. www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a very good read..and think about what AOSP stands for (I'll give you a clue...Android Open Source Project!). Can you steal what is open? What right have others to dictate what can and cannot be distributed in the open aspects of Android code (ie the underlying OS and vanilla UI...I'm not confused with Apps). Perhaps kingklick was guilty of plagiarism? But so is anyone that claims they worked really hard in that kernel without crediting Linus and leaving a donation link to his family or favourite charitable causes. Anyone that says I've reworked the UI without giving credits to The Astonishing Tribe for the original Android concepts which all UIs are based off...
Android is closed, that's why I question this 'community'.
I am not proud to be a member of this 'community'...right now.
Ps. Cyanogenmob was originally a typo (using words like mobbed in my piece...Freudian slip on the keyboard rather than fat finger syndrome)...but I kept it in as I thought it was funny...the Cyogenmob should replace team douche IMHO!
Pps. Originally posted in Android Dev general but moved here as its Nexus dev themed!

im proud of myself for actually completing this reading haha. interesting read though.

cheddie said:
im proud of myself for actually completing this reading haha. interesting read though.
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Im more proud of you for successfully quoting the entire thing...I might submit it for my dissertation next year

HazzBazz said:
Im more proud of you for successfully quoting the entire thing...I might submit it for my dissertation next year
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hahah thanks for bringing that to my attention. had to edit it lol

To be fair I posted the god darn epic rant/essay/post...my bad !

HazzBazz said:
To be fair I posted the god darn epic rant/essay/post...my bad !
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No, I posted it! I worked long and hard last week to write it out. I am accepting donations to cover my time spent though.

All this happens because altruism is evil in the sense that it is a lie. Altruists demand payment too, in the form of recognition, appreciation, respect, reputation, and all these similar thirst for prestige.
In NOT giving recognition to comrades In arms who share a common need for prestige, it is theft among kin, robbing prestige.
Prestige is indeed a rotten currency.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App

Touche...topical. Doesn't really do anything against my points, I am saying kingklick is guilty among many but they are appeased because they haven't got flames burning them. I do believe that kingklick should always give credit where due.

caysman said:
All this happens because altruism is evil in the sense that it is a lie. Altruists demand payment too, in the form of recognition, appreciation, respect, reputation, and all these similar thirst for prestige.
In NOT giving recognition to comrades In arms who share a common need for prestige, it is theft among kin, robbing prestige.
Prestige is indeed a rotten currency.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
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Good point...the fact is cyanogenmod wouldn't be as big with as many great ethusiastic devs without the praise it got...but is that a fair compromise for contributions...

I really think that the issue is the same as black droid. The Problem isn't that king copied the rom and redistributed it. The problem is that he did so claiming that it was his work based off of CM. When in reality he downloaded a a finished copy of CM, compiled by the CM team, and then changed a few lines the build.prop, renamed it and asked for donations. I personally can't see how that is helping the community at all. I really don't care about King one way or the other but I do think that the people who do the work should get credit for it. They spend countless hours writing code for us to have for FREE. Code you yourself says is better than what google puts out. They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.

HazzBazz said:
Good point...the fact is cyanogenmod wouldn't be as big with as many great ethusiastic devs without the praise it got...but is that a fair compromise for contributions...
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Don't misunderstand me. Payment is due, for sure, and payment makes our world go round, but I do wish it were not in the form of mousy prestige, rotten evil currency that it is. Money is a much better choice, but prestige seekers pretend to loathe $ probably because $ is less ambiguous.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App

They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
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But they do not explicitly ask for recognition do they? Even the great cyanogen does not do that, because once they impose recognition expressly as a mode of payment you would recognize that their asking for your adulation and love would seen a more demanding payment than asking for cash.
And also the inconvenience of the prestige seekers being more easily mistaken for all the money grabbing corporations which they demonize.
I'd make it clear that I have not wanted anything other than cyanogen's roms during my g1 days, and adulation I'd gladly pay, plus I have donated in money.
These guys made android exciting and formed PART of the inspiration for the paid android developers. It is unfortunate that the society's misconception of altruism as ' good' destroyed a lot of the language required to denounce it as the evil it actually is.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App

Gr8gorilla said:
I really think that the issue is the same as black droid. The Problem isn't that king copied the rom and redistributed it. The problem is that he did so claiming that it was his work based off of CM. When in reality he downloaded a a finished copy of CM, compiled by the CM team, and then changed a few lines the build.prop, renamed it and asked for donations. I personally can't see how that is helping the community at all. I really don't care about King one way or the other but I do think that the people who do the work should get credit for it. They spend countless hours writing code for us to have for FREE. Code you yourself says is better than what google puts out. They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
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it was actually jubehs rom he did that with.....
@OP, Omitting credit and stealing are completely different things. kk downloaded jubehs rom and changed 5-10 files and claimed it as his own. when confronted with this, kk said he compiled it himself even though the evidence overwhelmingly pointed at the other direction. He claimed to have built it from asop, when all he did was take someones rom and change a few files. if he said he "cooked" the rom from another (even without saying who) he would have been ok. But he continued to lie after he was caught which is probably why the ban hammer was dropped.
Most of this plus the damning evidence is located in the g1 section.
Also, android does not follow the GNU licensing, it follows apache, and by default, the devs who release their material here are also released under apache. Apache allows people to see the source so they can better understand it to develop, but people who use the source to develop something from it are not required to open source their works. they are also allow to put their own terms which would include giving proper credit.
AFAIK xda mods actually work together to decide on what to do with offenders. i know thats what they did for the wrecking crew (though some mods were less fair than others -_- )
PS: i havent used cyanogen mod since like 3.6.8 before the C&D lol

The sad fact is, it takes money to live in the world today. A lot of these programmers make good money 9-5 at their day jobs. The average computer engineer spends about 100,000 dollars going to college then makes about 60-70k per year after. This is working on a salary basis probably putting 40-60 hours per week. After that they spend another 20+ writing code for us because they like to. I can completely understand the devs wanting someone who copied and renamed their work to be banned.
That would be like you taking Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, Calling it Circle of Fire and trying to sell it as your own. You would get sued, etc. Come on people how can you defend this guy, come on really?

Tl,dr the OP.
flybyme said:
Omitting credit and stealing are completely different things. kk downloaded jubehs rom and changed 5-10 files and claimed it as his own. when confronted with this, kk said he compiled it himself even though the evidence overwhelmingly pointed at the other direction. He claimed to have built it from asop, when all he did was take someones rom and change a few files. if he said he "cooked" the rom from another (even without saying who) he would have been ok. But he continued to lie after he was caught which is probably why the ban hammer was dropped.
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If this is true, he got what he deserved. I had a similar thing happen when I wrote a script for the iphone which gets about 75-100 downloads a day. Someone from a forum put their name on it, posted it saying they were up all night writing it and put a donation link at the bottom of their post.
When confronted, they lied and said it didn't work so they rewrote it, but a simple comparison showed the only changes made was to echo commands which displayed the author's name and some text about how to run it. They also had no clue how it worked and gave bad advice about how to use it, and there were a lot of people on that forum using it, having problems and asking questions.
I didn't really care, and I never got a penny for my work, but it forced me to think about it, and what I came up with was: what use is there in having that kind of thing around? They aren't contributing or advancing ideas, they're confusing them and possibly screwing things up.
The douche that stole my script went from "moderator" to "supermoderator" at that site. If that was your site, why would you even want to keep him around? I'm not a banhammer kinda guy, but there's no upside to allowing things like that to continue.

Im no developer, but i do see both sides of the story. But I mean this is no way to act.
[email protected] please tell your teamdouche to grow up. We all know it was someone in it that just made that name
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kingklick92
whoever made that account with MY name haha ur f****g retarded, Ill see you in court. You distribuuted MY name
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kingklick92
whether you were in the right or not.
I think credit should just be given when you use someones work just like you would want the same for your work.
Delete if not acceptable.

Oh for ****'s sake.
OP, you're being a white-knighting ninny. KK got what he deserved: "open-source" doesn't mean an eradication of common courtesy--and crediting is common courtesy. You're trying to weasel around "blah blah why don't we credit HTC and Google" which is sheer, utter, retarded straw man. We know who developed Android by implication unless you live under a rock. Not so with specific individual community contributions.
Besides, what did KK even do? All I saw in the N1 development section from him was ROMs based off other people's work slightly modified, or rubbish that never worked like his attempt to port Blur. I say good riddance. The fact that he managed to scam donations off people hardly helps his case. I'd sooner donate to the source/original contributors, not such a juvenile, plagiarizing, useless waste of oxygen.

STOP THE STEALING - HD2 Scammers - Lets help the hard working developers..

I really hope the mods dont close cause this needs to be out there....
I am starting this thread to try to help protect the developers work from scammers....
I ask that if you see someone trying to sell the work of the devs. via ebay craigslist or any other site that you report it in this thread to help stop them in there track.... Hopefully if they see there ads listed here when they come to steal the work they will stop trying to sell it....
This money belong to all the people that has made this all possible....
This is the latest ad I have found which is just wrong.....
Android on your HD2 - $75 (arlington)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2010-07-27, 11:33AM CDT
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i can make ur hd2 phone dual boot to have winmo and android on your phone both in working order i do have everything on a laptop and can meet to show you my working device and mod your device to match it...plz text (469)-684-8218 or reply to this email for questions !! price depends on your location and how far i have to drive
•Location: arlington
•it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
PostingID: 1865976865

damn that is just wrong....and they even left their phone number...

http://cgi.ebay.com/HTC-HD2-Android...d=ViewItem&pt=Cell_Phones&hash=item3caf4d42c1
HTC HD2 Android 2.1 Installation Instructions
I am selling installation instructions for how to put Android 2.1on your HD2. I will give you step by step instructions on how to put a functioning Android ROM on your HTC HD2.
Android is what your HD2 has been waiting for. The current ROM's available are very stable and everything works-bluetooth, calling, email, text, data, Android Market--you just need to know how to do it!!
You are purchasing many hours of research condensed and compiled into easy to read instructions on three pieces of paper. i own the copyright to the instructions, and they are solely my research. I tell you where to go to get the files and then what to do with them to get it running on your HD2. Not breaking your phone and doing it right the first time is what this is about. I have created step by step instructions for you to read and follow, the rest is up to you.You should be up and running within an hour of receiving your instructions.
Please call text or email me with any questions you may have!!!
586-665-6669
I can also update you to the latest version of 2.2 Froyo upon request.
Other sellers may promise you Android on your HD2 which is only partially usable and experimental, but I will tell you how to install a fully functional, stable Android build.
If you are a seller and want to increase your HD2 selling price, let me help you sell for over $100 more per item with this advanced ROM.

We shall flood him with texts asking him to drive anywhere to install android. He ll loose his time and money
Sent from my Androihd2

that is just horrible! if anyone asked me, id do it for free and DEFINITELY tell them i didnt come up with this and give credit to those who did.
What these devs did is amazing and they seriously deserve the credit!
LAAAAAMEEEE!

I have had seen that on craislist add to, not to long ago but I have post tell all the craigslist shoper said that a guy who posted claiming that he could get android to run on HD2 for 40 dollar is a scammer, Cause I know it should be free and I have link the website to here xda-developer.
I don't think it right making money from other people work!!!

i suppose its fair to ask for money to drive to someone and give them a personal tuition on installing android and how to use it on your hd2.
i like to find information and figure things out by myself to do stuff.
some people arent very good at rooting out what they need to do but they are still capable of understanding something if someone sits down and explains it to them.
maybe it will bring some new people into the xda world. loads of people have an hd2 as an upgrade and dont know anything about it.

I feel that if credit is given freely where it is due, the *service* should be allowed.
Most people won't go put replacement parts on their car, and mechanics don't (generally) create their own parts from molten metal. That said, most mechanics also won't say that they DID create the parts from molten metal.
I haven't offered my services as a "phone mechanic" but if I did, AND posted links to the original works, AND made it clear that I was simply selling a service, would I be villified by the development community?

xfinrodx said:
I feel that if credit is given freely where it is due, the *service* should be allowed.
Most people won't go put replacement parts on their car, and mechanics don't (generally) create their own parts from molten metal. That said, most mechanics also won't say that they DID create the parts from molten metal.
I haven't offered my services as a "phone mechanic" but if I did, AND posted links to the original works, AND made it clear that I was simply selling a service, would I be villified by the development community?
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That's because people with no knowledge about cars should not tamper with their cars or they may cause some serious damage. Putting Android on the HD2 has no ill effects at all and does not warrant a $75 service charge or any at all. Something like this is as stupid as those idiots out there you see selling iPhone jailbreaks and unlocks when those are ridiculously easy as well and again cause no damage to the phone (except warranty voiding but that's to be expected).

hmm?
xfinrodx said:
I feel that if credit is given freely where it is due, the *service* should be allowed.
Most people won't go put replacement parts on their car, and mechanics don't (generally) create their own parts from molten metal. That said, most mechanics also won't say that they DID create the parts from molten metal.
I haven't offered my services as a "phone mechanic" but if I did, AND posted links to the original works, AND made it clear that I was simply selling a service, would I be villified by the development community?
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Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card? And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!
And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money), I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible.
This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!
My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com.
I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!

ironheart said:
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card?
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Yes, that's a service. There are many people out there who need a helping hand even for the easiest things. (Ganz besonders die Amis ;-) )

problem solved
nevermind...

Damn, already?? You what guys you can't stop this, you'll always have these punks tryin to make money off someones elses back..
My suggestion: (if possible)
I'm just an simple 1st line IT-engineer, so i wont exactly know how to do this but there must be a way to find out under which ip-adress the person is posting from on these sites.. The chance he's a member here is probably very high..
What if we get this ip, and ask the mods to permantly ban this person... ??
Anyone know if this is possible???
I think that will send a message to some people.. But I think this is unstoppable. Damn the Pirates! Shoot them all!

Selling the instructions and packages to someone is wrong but charging someone to set it up on the phone for them because the owner isn't capable of it themselves is fine IMO.
It's no different to somewhere giving away free car batteries and charging $10 if you wanted them to install it. You aren't paying for the batteries (in this case the software), your paying for someone's time to set it up.
Regardless of how easy it is or how freely available the instructions are, if someone wants someone else to do it, it's fair enough that person charge for their time to set it up for them. The value of that time is up to the person paying it.

MMAwarrior said:
What if we get this ip, and ask the mods to permantly ban this person... ??
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One of this guys is a member but as long as there are no personal and static IP's for everyone on the planet, ip bans are not working. You can block his region or his ISP but this will block not only him...

Hmmmm, ok so Ip bans are out! only one thing left to do!
Call / mail them meet them, beat em up!
Sounds like a plan to me! I could use the workout!

ironheart said:
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card? And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!
And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money), I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible.
This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!
My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com.
I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!
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I could see this coming from a mile away. All this thread is going to cause heated debates and eventually name calling. There are always going to be people on both sides of the issue. XDA is place place to develop and share. Its not a place to combat warez or what ever you want to call "selling other people's work". Obviously XDA is against it... if you read the rules.
I totally agree with you on not selling other peoples work and not charging for "your time" but this thread is unnecessary. Its contrary to the goal of this section. Not to mention the already mentioned threats of spamming these sellers. Depending on where you are at this could be considered illegal.

mmafighter077 said:
I could see this coming from a mile away. All this thread is going to cause heated debates and eventually name calling. There are always going to be people on both sides of the issue. XDA is place place to develop and share. Its not a place to combat warez or what ever you want to call "selling other people's work". Obviously XDA is against it... if you read the rules.
I totally agree with you on not selling other peoples work and not charging for "your time" but this thread is unnecessary. Its contrary to the goal of this section. Not to mention the already mentioned threats of spamming these sellers. Depending in where you are at this could be considered illegal.
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you got a point, it's just that we are real appriciative towards the devs, and can't stand these guys making money off em..

MMAwarrior said:
you got a point, it's just that we are real appriciative towards the devs, and can't stand these guys making money off em..
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I get you you... but I just feel if I want flame wars I could go to sherdog. haha.

ironheart said:
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card? And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!
And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money), I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible.
This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!
My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com.
I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you completely misunderstood what I was saying! Let me go through and disagree with your impression of me, one paragraph at a time:
"Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card?"
-Answer- Absolutely. As well as educating the person and ensuring that any additional HSPL, radio, or WinMo rom was installed correctly and was appropriate for their hardware.
"And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!"
-Answer- Absolutely not, and if you would have taken the time to read my original post, that you quoted, you would have seen that I made provisions for informing people of the community and where they should go for more information on Android on the HD2.
"And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money)"
-Answer- Back to the mechanic, I think this one has been cleared up with a battery analogy. Perfectly clear. If you need more explanation than that, I am willing to delve into more comparisons.
"I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible."
-Answer- I would be happy to donate to the devs if I were to profit from a service based on their work, out of appreciation AND out of capitalistic interest in potentially further motivating them to continue developing and improving.
"This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!"
-Answer- Think about it from a more objective basis and perhaps you can feel less queasy.
"My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com."
-Answer (even though I am not a dev)- That would be fine with me, possibly even beneficial, especially if the "experimental" part was emphasized to imply that there is some kind of risk or knowledge that should be had prior to going out and just diving into Android.
"I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!"
-Answer- Again, I do not condone stealing intellectual property. However, I believe that distributing the intellectual property of others is not stealing. Ever written a paper? You quote your sources, but YOU get the grade. Your sources never (or extremely rarely) reap any benefit from your work of putting research and experience together to put out a clean, finished product. And donating is fine and good and should be done if you find the software useful.

AT&T Webcast about Atrix Dev Mar 29 @ 11AM PST

Hey everyone, being as this is a webcast about Android Development I'm not sure if it belongs here or in "General" so Mods please move it if you think it doesn't belong.
Anyway, lets get on the AT&T webcast tomorrow and bug them about bootloader access, you do have to register to participate but it's easy enough. It begins at 11AM PST and says it is an hour long. You need Microsoft Office Live Meeting (or you could call in) but it's free to download.
http://developer.att.com/developer/forward.jsp?passedItemId=5300338
I fully realize that this may be a futile action but in my experience persistence pays off and I'm not done bothering them quite yet, maybe 6 months down the road if they still aren't doing anything for us I'll give, but not yet!
Aside: I'm assuming that since this uses full featured meeting software there will be an opportunity to ask questions.

Awesome! Yes, please do! It worked for HSUPA, it is worth a shot.

...why would you bug AT&T about a Motorola device? Waste of effort.

Ririal said:
...why would you bug AT&T about a Motorola device? Waste of effort.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Presenters:
Greg Wilson, Technology Evangelist, Motorola Mobility
Greg is a Technology Evangelist at Motorola Mobility, helping developers to create the best possible Android applications. Prior to joining Motorola, Greg was at Palm (and its various incarnations) doing similar work for the Palm OS developer community. Greg has been programming since the early days of the microcomputer, and has written software for programmable calculators, IBM mainframes, and an assortment of microprocessor architectures and microcomputer operating systems.
Peter van der Linden, Technology Evangelist, Motorola Mobility
Peter is the Android Technology Evangelist within the Developer Tools and Technical Services team at Motorola. He is not afraid of bugs, and has a collection of several prize bugs (software only).
They work for Motorola.

youareme7 said:
Hey everyone, being as this is a webcast about Android Development I'm not sure if it belongs here or in "General" so Mods please move it if you think it doesn't belong.
Anyway, lets get on the AT&T webcast tomorrow and bug them about bootloader access, you do have to register to participate but it's easy enough. It begins at 11AM PST and says it is an hour long. You need Microsoft Office Live Meeting (or you could call in) but it's free to download.
http://developer.att.com/developer/forward.jsp?passedItemId=5300338
I fully realize that this may be a futile action but in my experience persistence pays off and I'm not done bothering them quite yet, maybe 6 months down the road if they still aren't doing anything for us I'll give, but not yet!
Aside: I'm assuming that since this uses full featured meeting software there will be an opportunity to ask questions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make sure to point out the number of people that want this.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/

I'm not going to be able to watch and partcipate for this. I would like if someone could record this conference.
Thanks.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Ririal said:
...why would you bug AT&T about a Motorola device? Waste of effort.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because AT&T is behind 99pct of the problems with the Atrix:
- No Side Loading - AT&T
- Reduced Speeds - AT&T
- No Root Access - AT&T
Motorola made it pretty clear pre-release they wanted to open up the bootloader, AT&T obviously shut that down.

maybe they will give us the key for the bootloader, probably not, however its a good place to voice our concern

hate_Romania said:
maybe they will give us the key for the bootloader, probably not, however its a good place to voice our concern
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt it. I asked in their MotoDev forum.
http://community.developer.motorola...trix-App-summit-on-March-29th-2011/td-p/12350

I'm not sure if it would actually do us any good, but I mean i guess it would be worth a try. Who is all gunna be the conference tomorrow??

I think (When it comes to their "bootloader solution") what they meant to say was "We do what we think is right when it comes to working with devs and customers, and will continue to do so in the future". And, what everyone took that to mean was "THEY ARE GONNA UNLOCK THE BOOTLOADER FOR US". I'm not saying I agree AT ALL, I just sometimes try to look at it from both sides.
I definitely want this thing unlocked, but I'm not counting on Moto to do too much about it. Not to say opinions shouldn't be voiced!

No one should be blaming ATT for the locked bootloader. Motorola's Droids (except for OG Droid) all have been locked down and they are on Verizon's network. Feel free to blame ATT for upload speeds, fake 4G, no sideloading, global warming, etc...

The Motorola employee that's going to be there is an application developer. He's unlikely to know anything about, much less have an answer for, anything about the bootloader. Harassing employees makes the entire community look bad and childish. If you have a REAL problem with it, other than bandwagon hatred for something a lot of you clearly don't understand, follow the appropriate channels. Lawyer up and file a formal complaint. Harassing them over the internet won't get you anywhere. If you REALLY believe that it's changed anything so far, I'm sorry you're that ignorant.
All the whining and harassing got nowhere, but when a thought out, well written petition was put into place and formal requests were made, look what happened: Motorola released their source. They didn't do it to "appease the masses", or to "shut us up." They did it because the proper channels were followed and they honored that. You have to understand that the amount of people who want the bootloader unlocked is a very, VERY small portion of their total userbase. It's entirely ignorant to claim that everyone wants this. Motorola isn't some evil overlord who wants their users to hate them. They're a business. Do you honestly think they'll care if a few hundred users out of the hundreds of thousands they have leave over the bootloader being locked? Unlikely. They've recognized the issue, and have announced they will have a solution for developers soon, which is more than they're even obligated to do in the first place. They don't owe you anything, having such an entitled attitude is hurtful to the entire process. Be patient.
I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular, so please, be respectful and mature of the situation. If you don't like it, that's fine, voice your opinion respectfully.

I second Ririal. Those two that are going to be presenting tomorrow are evangelists, and are going to be pretty in the dark about the situation.

I think the chat will be very interesting. Devs being there should be good for a prediction on where Moto plans to take the Atrix... wonder if we can ask questions in a round about way to see if they slip on how they unlock the bootloader to develop on the phone... lol yea I know wishful thinking this isn't a cartoon or movie lol but one can dream... I'll try and make the chat and see if I can record it for you guys
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

I have school at that time but can someone do me a favour and bug them about his.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=980047
Its common with half the people that unlocked the Atrix.

I have a meeting tomorrow and can't participate in the webcast.
However, would somebody _please_ tell them that there are companies out there who really want to develop applications for the webtop.
I have the go-ahead at work to port our primary Linux/X Windows application to the webtop on the Atrix, but cannot move forward so long as hacking/rooting the device is necessary. We can only develop using officially authorized channels.
Thanks in advance for anyone who can bring this up to them.

Ririal said:
The Motorola employee that's going to be there is an application developer. He's unlikely to know anything about, much less have an answer for, anything about the bootloader. Harassing employees makes the entire community look bad and childish. If you have a REAL problem with it, other than bandwagon hatred for something a lot of you clearly don't understand, follow the appropriate channels. Lawyer up and file a formal complaint. Harassing them over the internet won't get you anywhere. If you REALLY believe that it's changed anything so far, I'm sorry you're that ignorant.
All the whining and harassing got nowhere, but when a thought out, well written petition was put into place and formal requests were made, look what happened: Motorola released their source. They didn't do it to "appease the masses", or to "shut us up." They did it because the proper channels were followed and they honored that. You have to understand that the amount of people who want the bootloader unlocked is a very, VERY small portion of their total userbase. It's entirely ignorant to claim that everyone wants this. Motorola isn't some evil overlord who wants their users to hate them. They're a business. Do you honestly think they'll care if a few hundred users out of the hundreds of thousands they have leave over the bootloader being locked? Unlikely. They've recognized the issue, and have announced they will have a solution for developers soon, which is more than they're even obligated to do in the first place. They don't owe you anything, having such an entitled attitude is hurtful to the entire process. Be patient.
I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular, so please, be respectful and mature of the situation. If you don't like it, that's fine, voice your opinion respectfully.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed Ririal.
The petition I've started doesn't actually complain about anything, it asks for an announcement at the very least. Just something for Developers to be hopeful for. It also just requests an option for Developers not for everyone.
We are working very hard to follow the right channels on the topic and generate positive support to show Motorola that there is an enthusiastic user-base out there.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/

ikenley said:
Agreed Ririal.
The petition I've started doesn't actually complain about anything, it asks for an announcement at the very least. Just something for Developers to be hopeful for. It also just requests an option for Developers not for everyone.
We are working very hard to follow the right channels on the topic and generate positive support to show Motorola that there is an enthusiastic user-base out there.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely. I saw your petition and have signed it. I'd love to see them, at the very least, give us an answer. We may not like it, but at least we'd have one instead of empty promises right now. No need to get upset about it, though

electronaut said:
I have a meeting tomorrow and can't participate in the webcast.
However, would somebody _please_ tell them that there are companies out there who really want to develop applications for the webtop.
I have the go-ahead at work to port our primary Linux/X Windows application to the webtop on the Atrix, but cannot move forward so long as hacking/rooting the device is necessary. We can only develop using officially authorized channels.
Thanks in advance for anyone who can bring this up to them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
THIS THIS
Being able to create/load webtop apps would be an awesome feature that would turn the webtop from an interesting sideshow to a must-have.
I am hesitant to spend anything on the lapdock because I don't think it would be much more useful than the phone itself. If I could throw OpenOffice down on there or something using apt-get then I would totally buy it.
I understand that Moto might want to control the user experience, as nobody is going to be doing any high-powered computation or gaming on it, but third-party apps would be really neat.