Related
Hi, can anyone advise as to why I lose the all sounds on an Orange Branded M3100 phone, other that Microsoft voice command 1.6 no other software has been installed! The details of the ROM are as follows
Operator Version: 14.123.1.614
ROM Version: 1.23.61.4
ROM Date: 07/13/06
Radio Version: 1.06.00.00
Protocol Version: 32.37.7010.01H
Here what happens no sound on the phone, reset the phone sound is now back, after a while, don’t know how long but the sound disappears, you get no ringing sound, menu click sounds nothing, reset the phone again and all is back, so it would suggest that it’s not a hardware failure but a software failure, how can I stop the orange branding installing itself after a cold reset in case something there is causing the problem, has anyone else came across this problem?
This is a brand new phone only received it Friday, does it need to go back?
Kind Regards
Dogo
I've recently noticed on my 8525 too, after a while it seems to just go on silent but the setting isn't changed it still set to on and no sound comes out of the phone no matter what program is used.
Phew, I thought it was just me..
I have noticed it may be something to do with the Bluetooth ear piece, although it always seems to happen when I have left the phone a while. and never when I try to check for the problem
To isolate whether this is hard or software you could try doing a full backup. Do a hard reset and let the device run for as long as it would normally take to show the problem, without any additional software. But do run wifi and power intensive applications to warm up the device - as this can cause internal connector problems.
If the problem is gone, this will tend towards a software problem although not an absolute guarantee. There are some issues that are related to both soft and hardware!! For example the screen fading to white issue can be caused by running (power intense) software that makes the device warm and that in turn causes pressure to be put on the screen.
A final thought, the speaker connection block is next to the stylus tip. There have been cases of the inserting and removing of the stylus causing the connector to become loose. This can cause intermittent sound or no sound at all. The warranty voiding fix is easy. Remove back and check connection is tight. No further dismantling needed. Ensure camera toggle arm is engaged before putting screws back in. (Rear Speaker)
The front speaker can also have issues. has spring contacts that can become slack - poor contact with m/board. There is a thread on checking this.
Mike
No Sound, not a Stylus issue
8525, ms voice dial 1.6,
HTweakC 2.0,
SBP Mobile Shell 1.0.0 build 2632.
ROM 1.34.502.1
radio 1.16.00.00
This has been happening about a week, nothing new installed. On Saturday I missed 12 calls because it was "auto-muted" nothing was on mute, just no ring sounds or anything else. I thought it might be some setting, I suspected that it didn't come back after I had set on vibrate for a meeting, so I went through everything, looks good. had to soft reset for audio to come back. Happened again Yesterday morning after being on charger, had to soft reset, happened again this morning after being on charger, had to soft reset. I'm suspicious of the charge ciruits, the phone was placed on a night-stand and I checked to make sure sound was working AFTER i plugged the charger in (i am an on-call engineer for hospitals) when I got up this AM the first thing I checked was the sound, no sound. Had to do a soft reset and sound is fine.
THIS IS VERY, VERY, VERY troubling.
i cant say that my sound has been "loose"
thefunkygibbon said:
i cant say that my sound has been "loose"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yep, I agree. My keyboard slider might be loose, but never had problems with the sound.
No sound - possible solutions
I too have had the no sound problem, but I also have a solution (well it seems to work for me and a few other people I know)
I have found that if I have more than about 800 sms messages on the phone (combined count across inbox, sent items, deleted etc...) my phone will decide sometimes to stop making any sounds.
Other symptoms include thew screen not going back to the background when problems are "closed" (well press the X button), sometimes not changing from portrait to landscape.
Hitting the reset key temporarily fixes the problem, but it strike again at any time...
I have seen this on both the official UK orange firmwares
As a side note, more than about 1000 sms messages and 5 unread sms messages and the phone will lock up about 10 seconds after the phone boots up. You have to be quick when the phone boots to go in to the sms inbox and delete 1 message before the phone locks up. This can be a bit tricky but i have done it a few times
from readingmany related threads, it looks like there are several causes for this issue. for me, it was definitely microsoft voice command 1.5 and 1.6. I turned off any notifications from voice command and my problem went away. no calendar voice announcements, no callerid, no bluetooth routing announcements, etc. voice command simply doesn't give up control of the audio sometimes, and it appears to occur most when it wakes up and announces something.
All I use voice command for now is voicedial. try that a while and see if you are fixed.
1.5 was worse, but 1.6 does it too.
good luck!
wes
saga continues
It did it again, twice in one day. Picked up the phone, (it had been resting on the table for several hours). No sound, I tested by placing a call and turning speaker on.. this works! So the speaker (rear) is fine as well as the front (ear).
After I heard the speaker on speaker phone I tried hearing the dial tones or other sounds, none. No incoming ring.
Device and phone volume on FULL
Turn volume off, vibrate, on, off on, and from phone screen turn to vibrate then back to sound
Vibrate still works for inbound calls
Turn voice command off and on
Go to phone (in settings and play the ring I've chosen) and suddenly it’s working again?
I'll try the turning all but phone options in voice command to no-notify. But to tell you straight, this is silly, one more day of this and it's probably (unfortuately) crackberry city for me. I simply can't have a phone that doesn't ring. I guess some ittertation of an O2 would do.. but I'm not too keen on plopping down another 5bills....
any ideas?
labrati said:
It did it again, twice in one day. Picked up the phone, (it had been resting on the table for several hours). No sound, I tested by placing a call and turning speaker on.. this works! So the speaker (rear) is fine as well as the front (ear).
After I heard the speaker on speaker phone I tried hearing the dial tones or other sounds, none. No incoming ring.
Device and phone volume on FULL
Turn volume off, vibrate, on, off on, and from phone screen turn to vibrate then back to sound
Vibrate still works for inbound calls
Turn voice command off and on
Go to phone (in settings and play the ring I've chosen) and suddenly it’s working again?
I'll try the turning all but phone options in voice command to no-notify. But to tell you straight, this is silly, one more day of this and it's probably (unfortuately) crackberry city for me. I simply can't have a phone that doesn't ring. I guess some ittertation of an O2 would do.. but I'm not too keen on plopping down another 5bills....
any ideas?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have just read your last two posts. I am wondering whether you are saying you have a sound/ringer problem OR whether you mean the phone sometimes crashes and therefore does not ring (i.e. you then need a soft reset) and sometimes you discover you've missed a call but never heard it ring.
If the above is true then I think you need to look for the solutions for avoiding hangs/freezing. I can guide you to these or a search will show them. It certainly does not appear that you have any physical problem with the speaker/earpieces.
Mike
dogo said:
Phew , I thought it was just me..
I have noticed it may be something to do with the Bluetooth ear piece, although it always seems to happen when I have left the phone a while. and never when I try to check for the problem
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, I never had a sound issue untill I started usin my HT820's, but have noticed a few times lately that my device sounds arent working, (I dont mean always through to the bluetooth headset) and I just power off/on the device, I dont get that many calls, so I havent missed any, and wasnt sure if it was rom or bluetooth related for sure, but I do usually leave my bluetooth on, just not always the headsets, it also doesnt happen a whole lot.
Loose connector
I'm not sure if this will help anyone, but i was losing sound on my 8525. I had dropped my phone twice and the rear speaker connection had gotten loose so i opened it up following the directions at http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1152710&page=1&pp=15
and now i have sound again.
Continued Issues
Mike, thanks, the issue isn't with the phone locking up at all, it's been very stable, I think I've soft-reset probably 3 times in two months.
The phone literally will stop emitting any sounds. I can still hear if I place a call and if I place that call on speaker phone it's fine. However if you call the phone, try to play an audio file, etc there is no sound that emits from the device.
It did it AGAIN today, I tested, was able to place a call and put it on speaker and called it with my other phone, the pop up screen announcing the inbound call came up and everything else on the phone worked as it should (except no ring). I then went to settings phone and hit ok (top right of screen). BAM.. sound was working on the device again, inbound calls ring, able to play audio etc.
I did note one other possible anomaly, I have my PTT mapped to initiate voice command, when trying to use this I was unable to initiate voice command. After going to phone and pressing OK, voice command started working again. W/O voice command I'm sunk, I have 500+ contacts.
I placed a call to AT&T and I'm back on the "chronic retention" list.. ughhh.. I went through 8 treo's last time. I don't want another basket of refurbs to deal with, I like WM so much better than previous interfaces.. any ideas are very, very, very welcome.
-mike
More information
This morning, the sound was gone again, but I went into settings and started playing to see what else might induce it to work again, I tried voice command again, disabled and re-enabled, that didn't work.
I then went into sounds and that didn't work, went into Today, and Buttons neither of those worked, but when I went into input (didn't do anything, just opened it and closed it) sound started working again.
Hopefully, none of you guys have a newer ROM with the loud startup animation and attempted to turn down that volume via the registry as outlined in the wiki. Unfortunately, doing that also lowers the speaker volume so I just disabled the animation instead. Phone and bluetooth sounds fine but mp3 and everything else were also lowered to a whatever level depending on the startupanimation volume you set.
update
It did it to me again yesterday, this time only going to settings phone and pressing OK would make sound come back.
Today, the phone refused to dial or emit any sound. Would not come back after soft reset (would not dial, no sound) had to do a hard-reset (removed battery). After first soft reset a windows came up to advise that mobile voice command couldn't start...
For a darn near $500.00 phone this is pretty sad. Love the phone but gee whiz...
Daily occurance
Well, it does it every single day at least once a day, and I've noticed the phone has slowed a lot, sometimes during SMS or email the cursor goes away or I have to wait 20-30 seconds for words to complete typing after I've finished. I guess I'll get my refurb next week. Perhaps go back to palm.. dunno...
possible fix?
I turned OFF the SMS message sounds and it seems to be working w/o losing sounds again! I'll let it run for a couple of days and see if this is the deal, but I now have no audio announcement for ActiveSync, POP email, SMS, or MMS. I do have audio/vib for missed calls. Anyway, it's been up and running fine all day. Good Grief.
no fix in sight
On hold with ATT right now for another phone. It did it again today at about 10AM. Strange, it may be time sequential, but it didn't do it at all yesterday.. it was great to have the phone ring.
in the past week i've found trhe sound in the music player will randomly stop working. the track keeps playing via the movement bar but there's no sound. i've checked the volume and this isnt a problem and there's no sound in coreplayer either when this happens.
the headphones are fine because unplugging them doenst bring the sound on either (via the speaker). the only way to get it working is to reset. it's strnage ebcause sometimes it goes for ages without a prob, soemtimes it happens after 5 minutes...
anyone got any ideas? I'm fairly certain it's a software issue as unplugging the headphone jack makes a noise
ok still dpont know the solution but i just left my phone alone for 30mins after it last stopped making sound and now it's making sound again (without resetting). is it a memory problem??
backup, hardreset, restore. it's the only way to be sure.
Hope you didn't do a hard reset yet as the post above me urged. Like you said once the TF3D mp3 player stops playing (the sound) coreplayer doesn't work either. Now, i'm guessing WM player doesn't work either, but oddly the radio does? One more question, are you running Gyrrator in the background? Let me know and i'll try and help you out promptly.
Svegetto said:
Hope you didn't do a hard reset yet as the post above me urged. Like you said once the TF3D mp3 player stops playing (the sound) coreplayer doesn't work either. Now, i'm guessing WM player doesn't work either, but oddly the radio does? One more question, are you running Gyrrator in the background? Let me know and i'll try and help you out promptly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm having the same problem with the sound.
Yes, the radio works, but nothing else, after unplugging the headphones it takes a while for the headphone icon to disappear and when plugged in it takes it longer than usual to appear. Doesnt fix the sound though. I have Gyrator 2 on auto start but i usually close it. At the time of the sound's disappearing it was off.
Mine only does it after i've answered a call through the headset, after the call is finished, the song continues playing and after a while or when the next song comes up, the sound disappears and can only be fixed through a soft reset.
Also mine refuses to display the embedded album art for every song, just chooses one and goes with that cover. And there used to be more covers behing the one running, but now it's just the one.
Hope someone can help me with any of this.
Thanks.
Svegetto said:
Hope you didn't do a hard reset yet as the post above me urged. Like you said once the TF3D mp3 player stops playing (the sound) coreplayer doesn't work either. Now, i'm guessing WM player doesn't work either, but oddly the radio does? One more question, are you running Gyrrator in the background? Let me know and i'll try and help you out promptly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yep spot on, gyrattor 2 is running in the bakground and i havent hard reset. havent actually tried using WMplayer or the radio as i dont use those functions but I'd also assume they prob wont work either
Ok, not guareenting anything, but this might/should fix it. I'm guessing you did this through Gyrrator (though u could have prolly done it via windows too somehow, but my money on Gyrrator). What's prolly happening is that in Gyrrator you have it set to "Suspend Device" for one of the events (to turn off the screen). Instead change this to "Turn Screen Off." Suspending the device causes u to loose sound in most apps (radio still works fine). When you hit the power button, this only turns the screen off and does not actually suspend the device while you're playing music. Let me know if it worked.
good luck
looked thropugh my events which are all the default ones and nothing was set to suspend
could it be something is S2U2? theres an option there which is worded "Dont suspend power" and mine is set to off. Do i need tio change it? (damn double negatives)
My Gyrator had a suspend device event, removed it and we'll see how it goes.
Insaneboy said:
My Gyrator had a suspend device event, removed it and we'll see how it goes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes that should fix it for you, but let us know just to make sure
Pierced Soul said:
looked thropugh my events which are all the default ones and nothing was set to suspend
could it be something is S2U2? theres an option there which is worded "Dont suspend power" and mine is set to off. Do i need tio change it? (damn double negatives)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, sounds like a double negative to me, so switch that to "on" so it won't suspend power. Let us know if it worked.
Svegetto said:
yes that should fix it for you, but let us know just to make sure
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, didn't.
Had the same problem today. Only happens after i receive a call via the headset.
Sound is completely stopped working!
The sound on my THD has completely stopped working. I've only had it for a few days, and suddenly when I was working on it, I realized there was no sound coming out of the speakers. It doesnt work in WMP, Coreplayer, the radio or the built in touchflo3dplayer. It does, however, work when I plug in the headset, but still no sound in the speakers though. I've tried soft reset, hard reset, and it doesn't even make a sound in the beginning when HTC logo comes on.
Any ideas about what's wrong, or do I just send it back for support?
i also got a problem with sounds, sometimes when i use youtubeclient, my sound stops working, and just the occasional tac in sound, then i have to reset my HD te get sound again, ive done 3 hard resets, and it even happenend when i booted youtube right after hard reset was done... does somebody know the problem?
renoadhd said:
The sound on my THD has completely stopped working. I've only had it for a few days, and suddenly when I was working on it, I realized there was no sound coming out of the speakers. It doesnt work in WMP, Coreplayer, the radio or the built in touchflo3dplayer. It does, however, work when I plug in the headset, but still no sound in the speakers though. I've tried soft reset, hard reset, and it doesn't even make a sound in the beginning when HTC logo comes on.
Any ideas about what's wrong, or do I just send it back for support?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, I have the exact same problem. It was perfectly fine till I received an SMS and everything after that, sound from the loud speaker does not work
Same issue here. The problem is caused by S2U2. The audio driver crashes everytime S2U2 locked the phone while there is a high usage of audio (e.g. by the TF3D MP3player). With S2U2 disabled everything stays normal.
I guess it has something to do with the new 1.40 version of S2U2. I just posted a request into the S2U2 thread.
I got the problem, too.
Thanks you found the reason for this sound-problem.
I hope S2U2 will fix this in next version.
CWempe said:
I got the problem, too.
Thanks you found the reason for this sound-problem.
I hope S2U2 will fix this in next version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope so too because there is no workaround. you cannot define the player as an exception because it is part of manila :-(
I also can confirm the problem with S2U2!
It also happen when you use the udio player. Once S2U2 locks the device the audio freezes.
Hi,
I have this same problem too, but haven't got S2U2 installed. I have found out what causes the problem. It only happens when I use the headset that came with the phone. When the button on the microphone to pick up a call is pressed for a longer time, the sound stops, while the mp3 (or other file) keeps on playing.
So that's the way to get the problem to appear... now a solution to make it go away. And not the answer, don't use that headset...
Up till now the only way I have found to make the sound come back is to do a soft-reset.
Hey everyone this is my first post so i apologise if this problem has been discussed at length already.
Ok so my current problem is that my htc hd2 wont make any sound whatsoever when using the rear speaker (so thats any ringing from incoming calls, notifications, videos, music etc..). I have played with the sound settings relentlessly but can't seem to change its current state and I have also done several hard resets. However, when accepting a phone call or when a pair of headphones are inserted into the handset the sound goes through fine, leading me to suspect that it is the rear speaker which is the problem (My speakerphone after accepting a call also doesnt work).
On two occasions I have been playing music on it in hopes for a sign of life and have had sound on very sharp bursts (no more then 2 seconds). In terms of any programs or updates that I have installed on to my handset I havent done anything but apply the updates from the HTC support website.
The problem ocurred on day 2 of using this handset and I have also sent an email to mobiles.co.uk to ask about a replacement handset. However I was having a lot of fun with this phone and wanted to keep it if it could be solved myself so if anybody has any ideas it would be very much appreciated!
Thanks
Try a hard reset. If the problem persists after that, it's certainly hardware related.
Same thing happened to my HD2 today, all sounds just stopped working for some reason, music player ring tone, notifications, everything, did a hard reset and everything works again, it is a bit worrying when it just happened out of the blue like that.
TomH01 said:
Same thing happened to my HD2 today, all sounds just stopped working for some reason, music player ring tone, notifications, everything, did a hard reset and everything works again, it is a bit worrying when it just happened out of the blue like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you accidentally turn the volume down using the button on the side of the device? Stupidly, system volume can be adjusted using this button.
sunking101 said:
Did you accidentally turn the volume down using the button on the side of the device? Stupidly, system volume can be adjusted using this button.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it can. It either changes both system and ringtone together (if you only use 1), or you have a tab for both (if you use both volumes), as per the sound and display settings in the settings tab.
No, that was the first thing that I checked, I have the single volume unchecked as well.
TomH01 said:
No, that was the first thing that I checked, I have the single volume unchecked as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I find the single volume the better option, less chance of this kind of thing happening. Other than that, it sounds like you have either installed a tweak or combination of tweaks which are not compatible or you have a hardware fault.
Woke up today and noticed I had a lot of missed calls and messages. Tried to send myself a message and noticed there is no sound. Could the hardware be damaged? I did not install anything and I already checked everything on the system. Can anyone give suggestions?
enyaj said:
Woke up today and noticed I had a lot of missed calls and messages. Tried to send myself a message and noticed there is no sound. Could the hardware be damaged? I did not install anything and I already checked everything on the system. Can anyone give suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate to ask, but I have to really. Do you have ringtone volume turned up? Also, in case you're not aware, you can set ringtone and system volume to be 2 different things.
Other than that, if the volume is turned up fully, can you play a music file and see if that works? Try every possible software solution before thinking it's hardware.
johncmolyneux said:
I hate to ask, but I have to really. Do you have ringtone volume turned up? Also, in case you're not aware, you can set ringtone and system volume to be 2 different things.
Other than that, if the volume is turned up fully, can you play a music file and see if that works? Try every possible software solution before thinking it's hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep. Did all of that. I even re-flashed the ROM just to make sure but still nothing. Guess I'll have for warranty.
enyaj said:
Yep. Did all of that. I even re-flashed the ROM just to make sure but still nothing. Guess I'll have for warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just one final check - does the earphone socket work? If it does then it's obviously a speaker problem. If the earphones don't work either then it would suggest software, but I really don't see what software could cause this after a ROM flash.
Yes the speakers socket work. Calls are fine. It's just the rear speaker that is not working. I also tried plugging/unplugging the earphones coz it happened before that after removing the earphones there was no sound. But before it worked, now still nothing.
enyaj said:
Yes the speakers socket work. Calls are fine. It's just the rear speaker that is not working. I also tried plugging/unplugging the earphones coz it happened before that after removing the earphones there was no sound. But before it worked, now still nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like it's broken then mate. Sorry to say it, but I reckon you do have to get it replaced. Bad times
I am told when charging of the phone is complete it vibrates for a few seconds. Anyone know how to turn this off as no-doubt it will waken me?
Thanks.
Not only that, but it makes a stupidly loud pinging noise, too. It woke me up at 3am this morning. I can't find anything in the settings to turn it off.
Anyone?
I don't know why Samsung and LG thinks this is useful.
i dont wake up for anything!! i havent noticed this once yet. does it only ping/vibrate when you are charging when the phone is on? or when it off also?
Only when it's on. I think that the pinging noise is controlled by the System volume slider in the settings menu, I had it up to full which is probably what caused it to wake me. I've put it down to about 2 now but am yet to test to see if it's quieter.
I can't find anything to turn off the vibration though.
I'm yet to get my phone, so can't check, but have you checked in the sound settings? There's apparently an option for Vibration if I'm understanding page 129 of the manual.
" Vibration: Set when the device will vibrate for various events"
I'm hoping the fully charged event is one of these.
OK, so the ping isn't controlled by System, it's controlled by Notifications. Which is really stupid because if you turn the volume down on that how are you supposed to hear when you've got a text message?
Disabling 'Haptic Feedback' in the Sounds menu seems to disable the vibration part of the notification. It also disables vibration on all other UI interactions, though.
Anyone got a solution to this really annoying problem?
do you really have to have your phone so close to you when you sleep???
AaronUK said:
Anyone got a solution to this really annoying problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you can try and get me something to go on, I can perhaps try to find out what is causing this vibration...
I am guessing it comes from the framework...
virussnake said:
do you really have to have your phone so close to you when you sleep???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I use it as my alarm clock when I am home and travelling.
pulser_g2 said:
If you can try and get me something to go on, I can perhaps try to find out what is causing this vibration...
I am guessing it comes from the framework...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have anything to go on other than that the phone makes a loud beep two times and vibrates when charged.
I mentioned it in one of previous topics covering this problem and I will mention it once again.
SGS i9000 had the same problem in one of the first firmwares. Vibrations and sounds when battery charged have disappeared starting from (I think) one of the first Froyo updates from Samsung.
Samsung will hopefully address this problem sooner or later.
I had autostarts purchased, from back when I had to worry about what was running. Looking it seems on plugging the phone to usb or charger it launches "Mtp application" guess that would be a good place to start.
On a slightly different note. Once the phone is fully charged, it stars to drain again. Is there an alarm clock app that keeps the phone around 98% then starts charging again 30 mins before the alarm is due?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
DVC1985 said:
OK, so the ping isn't controlled by System, it's controlled by Notifications. Which is really stupid because if you turn the volume down on that how are you supposed to hear when you've got a text message?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But doesn't you change the sms sound from the sms app? Thats how it works usually in Androids. The notification sound is for any other notifications, but you can change different for the sms sound. Thats how it works in Nexus S at least. Same for the gmail app also.
I guess this is in services.jar
I will take a look shortly.
...uurm...dunno if this is what you guys want but
Have your mobile on silent. (Alarms will ring in silent mode)
Go to settings - sound - vibration - Only when not in silent mode
It won't vibrate nor make a sound whilst your asleep
dk206 said:
...uurm...dunno if this is what you guys want but
Have your mobile on silent. (Alarms will ring in silent mode)
Go to settings - sound - vibration - Only when not in silent mode
It won't vibrate nor make a sound whilst your asleep
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So at least it works in that way. Thats how my phone is always at night. Good to know, my phone will come in about 1 or 2 weeks.
pulser_g2 said:
I guess this is in services.jar
I will take a look shortly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please. I would be more than happy to send a donation!
There might be a solution if you are rooted...
In the folder /system/media/audio/ui there's a file called Charger_Connection.ogg and you can rename that to Charger_Connection.ogg.bak (personally I use adb and the 'mv' command, Root Explorer should work fine too).
Plugging in the USB cable now doesn't make a noise, just waiting to see what happens when it's fully charged...!
UPDATE: Nope, it uses a different noise... still looking...