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I know it's a little too early for this thread but it's going to be an interesting topics which will be debated endlessly in the next couple months. Lets face it, CES did little to convince us either options will be superior.
Background information:
Windows 8 seems to be designed for not only tablets in mind, but how the OS is intended to be used. In order to make this possible Mircosoft is designing a version of the OS to be used on ARM processors. ARM processors, found in today's tablets and smartphones, are designed for high preformance with low power consumption.
At the same time Intel has invested a lot of money and research to develop the Clover Trial Atom processor. The atom processors are the processors found in yesterdays notebooks but this new design is also intended for low power consumption.
Known Characteristics of Each:
ARM:
HTML 5 apps only
Possibly Metro UI Only
Low heat
Clover Trail:
x86 architecture. Legacy apps will be compatible as well as HTML 5 apps
Lower preformace than sandy bridge processors
Looking at the above list it seems easy to pick the clover trail but the arm processors are likely to offer better battery life.
Heat issues are also a historic known issue on x86 processors, will continue with clover trail? If a tablet requires a fan width becomes an issue.
I will continue to update the characteristic lists as updates come out so everyone can make the best informed decision possible.
-writing this from my iPad 2 which I can't wait to ditch for something in the Windows 8 flavor
Even on a tablet, I hate the win8 look. I just want my win7 desktop on my iPad 2 also.
I don't think W8 will be as innovative as they say. Windows-8 will either be a hit or a big miss.
I see at least one error in your description, however: Windows 8 on ARM will not be limited to only the HTML5+Javascript apps. They've already demonstrated applications compiled for ARM specifically (including MS Office), so it's safe to conclude we'll see both.
Personally, I LOVE the Metro UI. I think it's the most brilliant shift in UI design in the last 30 years.
For me, I'll be going Windows 8 on ARM and tossing my iPad to the side (probably sell it) as soon as it's available. I'll keep my Windows 7 desktop as-is for the sake of x86/x64 applications in a traditional interface, but Windows 8 is where the market's going. In spite of the naysayers, the odds of it failing are very, very small.
Even Windows Vista, which was a fairly awful product at launch, sold very well (not as well as XP or now 7, but still, well over 200 million units), so it's not remotely a stretch to think that Windows 8, which is slim, light and mind numbingly fast, will also sell well.
Intel's Medfield Atom has proven to be a better performer than the ARM A9 core while offering similar/better power consumption on paper. Personally I don't care for either. I'd rather get ULV Ivy Bridge and live with 4-5 hours of batterylife and probably 8-10 with a keyboard dock, if available.
A ULV Broadwell in 2014 will make all of this moot anyway, x86 chips are more powerful and has major productivity software on lock because of it. Intel is now taking heat/power consumption very seriously and Metro apps for the most part are cross platform so it's Intel's to lose, don't forget that.
dont bet against Intel.... their upcoming tri-gate and finfet tech are gonna put them right in the same league as ARM as far as power consumption is concerned..
if I were a betting man, I'd bet that ARM Windows will be a niche player, while x86 windows will continue to be the dominant flavor, even for tablets, because of Intel's ability to bring down power consumption and price.
That, plus the standardization of x86, and ability for users to install legacy apps + mess around with their OS in an easy way will sway the market far in x86's favor...
Windows 8 has one silver lining left, and that's the Office suite. Android still has no good alternative, and Apple as a killer office app, but not THE Office app.
As long as Microsoft has the mouse behave like a finger, with swiping etc.... Then they'll stand a chance. I wouldn't bet on MS though... for the consumer segment, they need strong solid partnerships, and so far they only have Nokia.
coolqf said:
Windows 8 has one silver lining left, and that's the Office suite. Android still has no good alternative, and Apple as a killer office app, but not THE Office app.
As long as Microsoft has the mouse behave like a finger, with swiping etc.... Then they'll stand a chance. I wouldn't bet on MS though... for the consumer segment, they need strong solid partnerships, and so far they only have Nokia.
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What are you talking about? They have everyone for Windows 8. Android tablets aren't selling like their phone counterparts, are OEMs are waiting impatiently to jump on board with Windows 8. Windows still has many major productivity software for 3D rendering, design (pick any type), video, etc. Android has ICS's movie make and super gimped up Adobe touch apps. Android tablets are nothing more than giant mobile phones. Windows 8 tablets will be Metro touch apps that equal Android mobile apps plus all the desktop software we professionals use.
x86 is miles ahead of arm. as soon as dev's make arm ports of x86 apps i dont know if i will bother with windows 8 on arm until then
2 questions/thoughts... call it what you will.
1. ARM ver of Win8 will (or not?) be way more closed than current (traditional Windows approach) - sort of like Windows Phone is now. Meaning if you want an app you have to get it of the store (ONLY) not from any website like today with Windows. True or False?
If true... imho this is a very bad news for ARM ver of software.
Let say you live in Europe and you want/need program that is specific for US store only. What will you do in such case? Even iOS (bad, closed system, controlled by BIG, BAD APPLE) is more frindly about this tnah Android or Windows Phone.
2. Is it possible (for current ARM SOC's) to emulate x86 (in order to get older soft to work)? I dont think so.
On the other hand x86 should be more than capable to "pretend" it is ARM device . In such case having x86 W8 onboard means we cen als use ARM software if we want to need to (unless both x86 and ARM W8 will be lock tight - but than why would anyone jump of Win7????).
fact is we have no idea what RT will bring to the table or what the software will or will not be able to do, but if we look at the hardware we see a few notable differences
ARM, ultra low watt consumption (potentially good battery life), High performance BUT less grunt so to speak, cheaper price point
x86, higher power consumption(potentially a shorter battery life compared to ARM), High performance but more bang per buck, more expensive price point.
there is a distinct difference between the two models, a difference which I think will be very important. Most every day folk will not need more than ARM, for everyone else including many business users, x86 is there
Being able to run x86 code is my primary concern, im not talking heavy work, the programs are small and light, but x86 is essential for the time being for it to be flexible.
However provided RT isn't completely tied down like WP is AND is at a reasonable price point, I think it will make great inroads in the Low/Mid range tablet market.
I started looking into tablets after September last fall. I wanted something that would give me the most bang for the buck, or at least the minimum compromise. Things broke out in 3 general sections as mentioned previously: ARM, Atom/AMDCxx and X86/AMD (higher end iCore style).
As Windows 8 goes, there will be no real difference between Atom and X86. The instruction sets are the same. Both will support Metro and Windows Legacy apps.
ARM will only support Metro.
Price seems to break along those lines, but I found an exception.
I expect the ARM versions to run in the neighborhood of $400 and less; the Atom class to be in the $400 to $800; and the full X86 to be $600 and up. Of course equipment will also impact this price.
Probably, the most significant piece of equipment will be the screen. While pricing current machines for ARM and Atom (as well as X86), the 1366x1024 resolution was rare and it is required for a split screen feature of the Metro interface.
In the end, I picked a Dell Duo with a dual core hyperthreading Atom processor because it had the required resolution and the price was down as low as anything I could find. I also got a keyboard, but suffered the weight and short battery life.
Performance has been good in most situations, though tinkering with Unity 3d seems like a bad idea on the Atom with Windows 8 (but it's not a release OS yet). And performance lags a little in Unity 3d game execution, too.
Metro looks good to me so far.
So, for an iPad style consumption usage I think the ARM is probably going to work great. Dual core if you can get it.
For a little heavier usage and legacy aps, you'll want an Atom type systyem. I'd say dual core minimum.
And if you want superior performance with no compromise, as always, expect to put the green on the table.
Something on the subject:
http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2173...V3&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Twitterfeed
Lurk said:
In the end, I picked a Dell Duo with a dual core hyperthreading Atom processor because it had the required resolution and the price was down as low as anything I could find. I also got a keyboard, but suffered the weight and short battery life.
Performance has been good in most situations, though tinkering with Unity 3d seems like a bad idea on the Atom with Windows 8 (but it's not a release OS yet). And performance lags a little in Unity 3d game execution, too.
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How does internet video work for you on Win 8? What Atom is in your Duo?
I couldn't get netflix or hulu working well on an N280.
I am running 8 on an e-350 (Acer w500), and video works great, but the touch screen is poor around the edges like a number of other Windows 7 tablets where they were designed for accuracy in center, instead of across the board.
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dazza9075 said:
There is a distinct difference between the two models, a difference which I think will be very important. Most every day folk will not need more than ARM, for everyone else including many business users, x86 is there.
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I actually expect a number of our business users on RT. We won't push them to it, but the option will probably be given.
Today they use:
Web based tools.
A few silverlight sites.
Office
We're likely to port our silverlight apps to METRO, first one took a little under a day. At that point, if they wanted an iPad like device, with the new news about sideloading: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstor...deploying-metro-style-apps-to-businesses.aspx
It is a pretty good fit.
Obviously designers, ops, etc are not going to find RT sufficient, but I expect a subset will. We have some that only use iPads today anyway.
michiganenginerd said:
How does internet video work for you on Win 8? What Atom is in your Duo?
I couldn't get netflix or hulu working well on an N280.
I am running 8 on an e-350 (Acer w500), and video works great, but the touch screen is poor around the edges like a number of other Windows 7 tablets where they were designed for accuracy in center, instead of across the board.
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Same question.
I had Asus 1201N (but it had dual core Atom 330 onboard + Nvidia ION card) - no problems with any video but it was HOT, VERY HOT and very noisy.
I kept Samsung NC10 (same atom chip as in 1201N but single core only and no ION). Watching any video on it is a nightmare :-(. Even YT is not working well.
How does internet video work for you on Win 8?
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Internet video seems to be very good. Currently, things run fairly smoothly. The connection speed is a bigger impact than the processor speed.
Odd item. I just tested real quick and I can now play YouTube videos in the Metro browser. I guess they have the HTML 5 delivery working.
HD on Netflix is a little choppy right now and stutters in the desktop browser. It could be the connection.
What Atom is in your Duo?
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N570 @1.67ghz
I couldn't get netflix or hulu working well on an N280
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I worried about performkance. That's why I went for a dual core at a minimum. The earlier Duo had an N560(?) at 1.5ghz. I don't think it would be enough. Again, it might be the connection, but @ HD right now, it's borderline.
Of course. sometimes it comes down to the video card/processor, too.
I am running 8 on an e-350 (Acer w500), and video works great, but the touch screen is poor around the edges like a number of other Windows 7 tablets where they were designed for accuracy in center, instead of across the board.
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I haven't experienced any issues around the edges ... or any where on the screen. I am pleased overall with the unit and was a bit disappointed when they stopped producing them in December. But, it was largely a test unit.
Thanks for the info Lurk.
Clover Trail pics
I found this article while browsing on tabletpcreview forum.
An online writer Padmx Max, got access to Clover Trails and took some pics of the board and the processor: here is the link
http://www.padmx.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=1707
The processor is actually stacked under the memory so you can't really see it.
But it is an interesting idea.
Not sure it is Intel Z2580 or z2760 tho.
1. Are the only Windows 8 tablets without a fan equipped with Intel Atom Z2760 CPU?
2. What would you suggest when I would want a Windows 8 tablet without a fan?
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda app-developers app
Given that x86-capable processors run pretty hot, you're not going to find a lot of options. Some of the Atom chips may get by on passive cooling... maybe. Frankly, if you want a fan-less tablet, that usually means ARM, and that means Windows RT.
Of course, what with the latest hacks, the line between Win8 and Win RT is getting thinner than ever...
1. All Atom tablets are fanless as far as I know. My Samsung 500T barely even got warm and I think that was more the LCD than the processor. I don't believe there are any other x86 processors that are fanless right now.
2. Obvious an Atom tablet. You'll probably need to narrow it down a bit on what you are looking for. Is the tablet form factor more important or the laptop form factor. If using it as a tablet is more important, you'll probably want a lighter and smaller 10.1 inch tablet like the upcoming ASUS Vivotab Smart. If you want a laptop form factor with keyboard for typing, then a 11.6 inch tablet is idea for the larger keyboard size. Also do you need a pen built in, do you need a Wacom digitizer?
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GoodDayToDie said:
Of course, what with the latest hacks, the line between Win8 and Win RT is getting thinner than ever...
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It's not that thin at all. Windows RT tablets will never be able to run x86 desktop applications with it's ARM processor. That hack just lets you run unsigned Windows RT ARM applications.
---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 AM ----------
PS. Maybe AMD's Temash APU might be fanless. Not entirely sure yet. It's shipping Q2 this year, but don't know when we'll see any tablets with it inside.
@Ravynmagi: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934 Ever heard of emulation? The speed sucks - you won't be playing high-end recent games, and running something like Photoshop would be painful (as much due to the tablet's low specs as due to the emulation, in that case) but we can *already* run (a few) x86 apps on Windows RT, and adding support for more is mostly a matter of making sure the system calls are supported.
GoodDayToDie said:
@Ravynmagi: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934 Ever heard of emulation? The speed sucks - you won't be playing high-end recent games, and running something like Photoshop would be painful (as much due to the tablet's low specs as due to the emulation, in that case) but we can *already* run (a few) x86 apps on Windows RT, and adding support for more is mostly a matter of making sure the system calls are supported.
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An alpha tool made 4 days ago that can run notepad.exe and a 14 year old 2D game on an ARM processor. How could I have missed that?
Can you even install Photoshop, much less run it with this alpha tool yet? You can barely run Photoshop on an Atom, I think running it on an ARM through emulation will be more than painful.
I think it's a bit premature to be touting this as a solution to running x86 apps on an ARM tablet.
I view it quite differently: in any four days, an alpha tools has been written that can run simple apps, even old games, without recompiling them... and has already dramatically improved in performance.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you're going to be completely be able to replace an x86 machine with an ARM one... but the reason for that is simply a matter of performance of the underlying hardware. For low-demand stuff (the kind of thing you might run on a fanless tablet anyhow) it's not an unreasonable goal. Of course it's not there yet... but a week ago, it wasn't possible at all.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
But what do you think, will Windows RT ever be like Windows 8 on x86? What I mean is that will it run Flash, Java and be like a desktop that is also a tablet?
Wrong post.
kaspar737 said:
Thanks for all the replies so far.
But what do you think, will Windows RT ever be like Windows 8 on x86? What I mean is that will it run Flash, Java and be like a desktop that is also a tablet?
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My opinion. I'm not sure what kind of future RT has. Why buy a Windows RT with ARM, when you can now get Windows 8 with Atom for just as cheaply ($500) that can do a lot more? Samsung and other manufactures have already abandoned their Windows RT plans, they don't see a future in it either.
By the way, Windows RT is able to run Flash if it's in Microsoft's white list of websites.
Ravynmagi said:
My opinion. I'm not sure what kind of future RT has. Why buy a Windows RT with ARM, when you can now get Windows 8 with Atom for just as cheaply ($500) that can do a lot more? Samsung and other manufactures have already abandoned their Windows RT plans, they don't see a future in it either.
By the way, Windows RT is able to run Flash if it's in Microsoft's white list of websites.
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Yeah, I'm afraid that app developers don't see a point developing apps for Windows RT. Also, RT tablets just seem to be too locked down. To me it seems that x86 tablets are like Android tablets- the experience you get is not determined by the OS maker but RT tablets are like the iPad- you can mostly do what the OS maker likes/approves.
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda app-developers app
kaspar737 said:
Yeah, I'm afraid that app developers don't see a point developing apps for Windows RT. Also, RT tablets just seem to be too locked down. To me it seems that x86 tablets are like Android tablets- the experience you get is not determined by the OS maker but RT tablets are like the iPad- you can mostly do what the OS maker likes/approves.
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda app-developers app
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Windows RT apps run on Windows 8 too and Windows 8 will be shipped on millions and millions of computers around the world. So I think the Windows Store apps (aka Metro style) that run on RT and 8 will eventually show up in good numbers from developers. So if you do go with Windows RT, the apps will come, even if people abandon the OS and hardware platform.
Windows 8 has the best of both worlds though, you can run the RT apps and the x86 apps. And the Atom is the best of both worlds, the efficiency of an ARM processor with the ability to run x86 apps.
Atom is hardly the efficiency of ARM... it's just the first x86 processor to get within the same order of magnitude. They still need bigger batteries and/or suffer lower battery life. Mind you, they're closer than I thought x86 (which is an inherently inefficient design in some ways, due to the extreme complexity of the instruction decoder required) would get.
GoodDayToDie said:
Atom is hardly the efficiency of ARM... it's just the first x86 processor to get within the same order of magnitude. They still need bigger batteries and/or suffer lower battery life. Mind you, they're closer than I thought x86 (which is an inherently inefficient design in some ways, due to the extreme complexity of the instruction decoder required) would get.
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
"Whereas I didn't really have anything new to conclude in the original article (Atom Z2760 is faster and more power efficient than Tegra 3), there's a lot to talk about here. We already know that Atom is faster than Krait, but from a power standpoint the two SoCs are extremely competitive. At the platform level Intel (at least in the Acer W510) generally leads in power efficiency."
Ravynmagi said:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
"Whereas I didn't really have anything new to conclude in the original article (Atom Z2760 is faster and more power efficient than Tegra 3), there's a lot to talk about here. We already know that Atom is faster than Krait, but from a power standpoint the two SoCs are extremely competitive. At the platform level Intel (at least in the Acer W510) generally leads in power efficiency."
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You could just link to the article
And, yes, the Atom Z2760 is more power efficient.
As far as tablets go, though, all the Atom tablets I've looked at have felt like cheap toys, whereas the Surface is possibly the best built device I've ever used. That's the main reason I chose the Surface RT, it just blows all the competition away in build quality.
As far as applications go, neither the Atom nor the Tegra are very well suited for intensive tasks like Photoshop and the like. They're both going to perform quite poorly at those tasks.
The Atom does have the existing software library, though in reality a large number of what people will need/want to use has already been ported over to Arm.
An interesting thing to note is that even though the Atom is more efficient than the Tegra the Surface still had better battery life compared to the W510 by almost an hour.
Build Quality: Surface beats W510 hands down. Acer has okay build quality, but the Surface is superb.
Performance: The Atom nudges out the Tegra
Applications: Any applications that need x86 won't be usable on the Atom, but they will run, so the Atom wins. The Tegra is rapidly catching up, though.
Battery Life: The Surface beat the W510 by nearly an hour, therefore I'm calling it in favor of the Surface. The Atom itself is more efficient, but that doesn't mean that the tablets built using the Atom are.
I stand corrected. Atom, even an older Atom, is surprisingly competitive with ARM on a power efficiency standpoint. I don't know that I agree with handing it the win outright, it won some of the "total usage" charts but lost some of the others, occasionally substantially. It's certainly a viable option for a mobile device though. Interesting... time was, Intel had difficulty squeezing their chips down to 5W, while ARM was expected to run at around 300mW. Apparently I need to keep a better eye on these things.
I'm searching for a tablet that comes with a full windows 8 but that is also supported by the linux kernel so I could install Ubuntu on it.
I thought that an atom Z2760 based tablet was the way to go, but I've discovered that that processor is not nor will be supported by the linux kernel, so that was a no go.
Atom Z2760 based tablets were relatively not so expensive, so I'm looking for a tablet that costs under 500 euros/550$ and the screen size to be 8" or above (10" would be perfect)
Do you have any suggestions for me?
Thanks in advance!
As you point out, the atom tablets cannot run linux. That leaves you with intel core i3/i5/i7. I dont know of any within your budget.
Only things I can think of are either
A) wait quite a while. The bay trail CPU's are back to what you expect and are normal x86 processors capable of running windows 8 and linux if you wish. However I dont think they are due until 2014.
B) Virtualbox on an atom tablet. No one wants to do that really.
C) Increase your budget.
If you don't mind *installing* Win8 rather than having it come pre-installed, there are plenty of older tablet PCs which will do the job, and while most of them initially retailed for far above your cutoff price, you can usually find them fairly cheap nowadays.
For example, here's an older Dell Latitude 10 tablet that uses an Oak Trail Atom CPU and runs Win7 by default, and is in your price range: http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnline...arch.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dfh&cs=22&puid=2e477084
Bear in mind though: those specs are pretty bad by today's standards. It will run Win8, and it will run any desktop Linux distro I know of, but it won't run either one terribly well.
Thanks for your replies, really appreciate them!
Ok, I guess I'll just pass this generation of affordable Win8 tablets and get a laptop.
Once again, thanks for your help!
friend,
iam looking for a portable windows 8 pro machine ,productivity is more important for me than apps so iam skipping ipad and android tabs.
iam confused whether to go for an ultrabook or tab. i already have a laptop with good specs.
i have a couple of questions to ask.
1.is ultrabook a good alternative to tablet?
2.a windows 8 tab with keyboard setup like dell venue pro 11 will be as comfortable to use/portable as an ultabook?
3.is the new Intel Atom quad-core Bay Trail processor powerful enough to run average legacy apps
thanks in advance
Ok, so basically what i am wondering is if the Dell venue [baytrail] tablets are able to upgrade their OS? I really want to purchase the Dell Venue 11 Pro but i am reluctant to because when reviewing it i discovered that it only comes with the 32-bit version of windows 8.1. I was surprised because i knew that the baytrail processor actually supports 64-bit operating systems. Its just that the current 64-bit windows 8.1 OS does not have working drivers that are compatible with the Dell venue pros :| . (How convenient for me).
Basically what i am hoping is to get an answer from a person who already owns one or knows a little bit more about it. Are the venue pros capable of having their operating system wiped and having anything installed on it? IE. Ubuntu, or some other linux distro? because if this is the case then that would mean once a driver comes out that supports baytrails processor for the 64-bit version that customers with already purchased tablets can easily re-install the 64-bit version.
Just to note, so far i talked to some people from dell but they said i could not upgrade the OS. So, now i am going to try my luck with the tech department. Im hoping they will know a lot more about this.
Also, the reason i am wanting this tablet is so that i can program on it as well as take notes for my classes. I am currently going for a computer engineering degree with the computer science route @ Texas A&M- College station.
If anything, if i get enough taxes back i will purchase the the i3 version or maybe the surface pro 2. Im not sure yet =_= but that is a discussion for another thread. (basically i would like to be able to run unity, or blender on the tablet, and i know those programs are to processor intensive to run on an atom processor)
Unity or blender, sounds like you would be better off skipping tablets and actually getting a laptop or bare minimum something like the aforementioned surface pro 2.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Unity or blender, sounds like you would be better off skipping tablets and actually getting a laptop or bare minimum something like the aforementioned surface pro 2.
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I have actually thought of using a team viewer app so that i can connect to my desktop when wanting to deal with unity....im just not sure if team viewer will support touch input :S . As for the tablet i just want it to be capable on its own. The baytrail can run full windows application so if team viewer does not support touch throughput then maybe something else will. I also want a tablet that can be self capable of course. So far from what i have read, the CPU seems to be superior to all ARM processors. But, unfortunately the graphics are terrible when compared to the latest arms. So that is why i am also wondering. Should i wait till the end of 2014 to buy a cherry trial tablet?
Cherry trail will be the next generation in the atom processors that will have a faster cpu and will have 4 times the graphics cores... so hopefully up to 4 times the graphics capabilities which will put it well ahead of all current arm processors. Even the upcoming Snapdragon 805 processor!
the main downfalls for me that are preventing me from getting a Dell Venue pro 11 are three things. First, that its on 32-bit windows, second it only has 2GB of ram, and third that the graphics on the tablet are terrible!
So all that aside.... should i wait for the cherry trail version of the Dell venue 11 pro? or wait for the 64-bit version of the baytrail venue pro with upgraded ram comes out... (if it comes out)