Related
Please don't get me wrong -- I think the Shift represents a great advancement in UMPC technology. Having WM6 and WinVista (or WinXP) combined on 1 device is, IMHO, a super idea. And the form factor and build quality are very good. I'm impressed and, as Jenn at Pocketables pointed out, it's fun to use -- kind of grabs you. But unlike Jenn, I'm not ready to say I'll not part with it. I've liberated WM6 so I have as full a use of the WM6 side as I believe is so far available. I've got Vista humming, at least as much as the 1G RAM can live with. But if this is as far as I can go I don't see much more than another "gadget" to add to my collection. The 1G RAM limit is a show stopper -- slows the machine down and really limits what I can do in Vista. The 64MB limit in WM6, combined with inability to access the SD card slot (or even the USB slot) means my WM6 is crippled -- hardly any of what I'm accustomed to using can be routinely done. Throw in the 2 hr battery limitation in Vista -- it just isn't a very good "solution" for a road warrior.
I realize there are folks hard at work to improve on these and I commend them (and have contributed to the Shift Project) -- I really hope they succeed. But I have to say that what I'm looking at from HTC is, at best, a "beta" version -- they have so limited what's inside the box that it's hardly useful for anything. Considering the growing competition I doubt HTC will hold much share of this market.
agree
Huib
Interesting comments and many agree with. Given the amount of information available on the net about this device, and its limitations including SnapVue, battery etc etc, what motivated you to buy it? It seems to be a mismatch to me re. your requirements. I bought it even knowing all these things as it matched my needs.
A road warrior it is not. A media powerhouse it is not. A tiny portable always on email and document viewer/editor, plus web browser it is. I get 2.5hrs on Vista browsing the web - same as almost every other laptop I've ever owned, so I'm not surprised really...altho again, Vista leaves much to be desired in this respect - a spinning hard drive kills batteries.
I agree with you regarding the things they didn't get right - SnapVue is just silly right out of the box and Vista is a mistake. HTC really fvcked up there.
This device kind of reminds me of the Sony C1V picturebook I had (with that horrible Crusoe processor - if you think this chip is slow, that thing was lifeless)...awesome for what I wanted but that's where it stops...it doesn't extend beyond that and I'm comfy with that.
To answer the question, I use my Shift when I travel. I used to take my HX4700 but bluetooth 3G connection was slow, Opera was slow for browsing and the screen too small really. I had a b/tooth key board which was OK but another piece of kit that needed batteries and sync'ing etc etc. Now I carry a v. small bag with me when away and it holds the Shift, power packs, Archos 504, headphones and a few other bits and bobs...all I need. On planes I can type my reports in Mobile Word, sync it to Vista and tart them up and send. In hotels I can surf the web at my own pace on HSDPA with it plugged in to AC (on high performance setting). I can adjust my webpage using filezilla etc etc....basically all the things I couldn't do on the HX4700 (which I now use as a support device for the Archos, and as a GPS)....the Shift really filled my requirements. I almost bought the Fujitsu U1010 but the ones here didn't have 3G built in and the keyboard was harder to use that the Shift.
Next version, should HTC shift (no pun intended) enough of these first ones, should ideally have:
1. Higher res screen
2. Bigger hard disk
3. SnapVue fully functional with SD card, WiFi access etc etc
4. XP as an option
5. A battery compartment that allows for an extended one to be added
Aside from that, I still like my Shift and use it almost everyday...
FOOFTR said:
Interesting comments and many agree with. Given the amount of information available on the net about this device, and its limitations including SnapVue, battery etc etc, what motivated you to buy it? It seems to be a mismatch to me re. your requirements. I bought it even knowing all these things as it matched my needs.
A road warrior it is not. A media powerhouse it is not. A tiny portable always on email and document viewer/editor, plus web browser it is. I get 2.5hrs on Vista browsing the web - same as almost every other laptop I've ever owned, so I'm not surprised really...altho again, Vista leaves much to be desired in this respect - a spinning hard drive kills batteries.
I agree with you regarding the things they didn't get right - SnapVue is just silly right out of the box and Vista is a mistake. HTC really fvcked up there.
This device kind of reminds me of the Sony C1V picturebook I had (with that horrible Crusoe processor - if you think this chip is slow, that thing was lifeless)...awesome for what I wanted but that's where it stops...it doesn't extend beyond that and I'm comfy with that.
To answer the question, I use my Shift when I travel. I used to take my HX4700 but bluetooth 3G connection was slow, Opera was slow for browsing and the screen too small really. I had a b/tooth key board which was OK but another piece of kit that needed batteries and sync'ing etc etc. Now I carry a v. small bag with me when away and it holds the Shift, power packs, Archos 504, headphones and a few other bits and bobs...all I need. On planes I can type my reports in Mobile Word, sync it to Vista and tart them up and send. In hotels I can surf the web at my own pace on HSDPA with it plugged in to AC (on high performance setting). I can adjust my webpage using filezilla etc etc....basically all the things I couldn't do on the HX4700 (which I now use as a support device for the Archos, and as a GPS)....the Shift really filled my requirements. I almost bought the Fujitsu U1010 but the ones here didn't have 3G built in and the keyboard was harder to use that the Shift.
Next version, should HTC shift (no pun intended) enough of these first ones, should ideally have:
1. Higher res screen
2. Bigger hard disk
3. SnapVue fully functional with SD card, WiFi access etc etc
4. XP as an option
5. A battery compartment that allows for an extended one to be added
Aside from that, I still like my Shift and use it almost everyday...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree and htc should also use SSD's to save more power and they should make sure they announce the correct specs.
FOOFTR said:
Interesting comments and many agree with. Given the amount of information available on the net about this device, and its limitations including SnapVue, battery etc etc, what motivated you to buy it? It seems to be a mismatch to me re. your requirements. I bought it even knowing all these things as it matched my needs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Point well taken -- I should have added that my comments were stated with the proverbial tongue in cheek. I was well aware of the Shift's limitations and purchased one out of curiosity -- I've followed it since its initial announcement and had cancelled my preorder after seeing the limitations being documented. But I saw this one on ebay for several hundred $ less than retail and decided to look at it for myself.
I agree with the suggestions made and really hope HTC listens (if they decide to stay in the UMPC market -- that's not a "for sure" thing). I've tried five different UMPC's as well as the Sony TZ "subnotebook" and have yet to find what I think I'm after -- a truly business capable device small enough for my purposes (and that's really subjective, I know) yet powerful enough to replace my usual notebook (13.3" XPS). I knew the Shift wouldn't do this -- its very short battery life is a show stopper although I could carry an external battery pack. But the limited RAM and the very limited usefulness of SnapVu make it relatively useless to me so I'll end up ebaying it.
I'd hoped to generate more discussion in the hope that collective experience and wisdom would prove useful to the UMPC market.
There are some very interesting viewpoints here.
I purchased mine after following the news stories for months. I purchased it the moment it was available in the UK and paid nearly £900.
I knew the limitations, but had to buy one of these! It gets used a lot in our house. And I am always doing things to it. It's leberated and its dual boot with XP.
I use it to tinker with, watch movies and surfing. The wife loves it too and surfs on the sofa while watching the tele, she prefers it to any of the laptop we have because of the size. My daughter took it away for the weekend recently too so she could surf. Its such a versitile device. And most of all, PEOPLE STARE AT IT ON THE TRAIN/PLANE WHEN I'M ON BUSINESS!!! I don't really use the liberated Snapvue, I don't need to when its dual boot.
If I had a wish list, I would love to see an SSD in it and another 1GB RAM. The processor is fine for what I use it for, so I have no grumbles there.
My eldest daughter wants it for school, so it'll be used for that full time in September when she is a year 10.
I do understand that to some people its limited in its application, but for us as a family, its one of the better toys we've purchased (and we buy a lot of techy toys/gadgets!) The joys of working in IT means I am addicted to buying new toys!
I'm actually sat here in the garden using HSDPA typing this. Apart from a couple of phones, I don't have another device with this ability. why be inside when its such a sunny evening!
benktlottie said:
TIt's liberated and its dual boot with XP...... I don't really use the liberated Snapvue, I don't need to when its dual boot.
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Click to collapse
What do you mean by "dual boot"? I have mine liberated but I'm not sure it dual boots?
Thanks!
brucewilsonpa said:
What do you mean by "dual boot"? I have mine liberated but I'm not sure it dual boots?
Thanks!
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Click to collapse
Same here, I have dual boot, as in when powered up it asks whether you want to boot Vista or XP. Next stop, triple boot with Linux installed too, although that will be cutting it a bit fine for hard drive space.
Bruce, I think your comments, and the general community's will help deliver better products...I think they're constructive for sure.
I don't like it when people say product X sucks when indeed product X is not designed to do the very things they are comparing it against. I have read so many appalling reviews of the Shift - I'm ceratin 50% of the people won't have even used one...a classic is when someone said "the poky keyboard makes you wish for full size keyboard real estate..." - um, one cannot have a 7" screen device with an 18" keyboard...get real and take the device in the context it is meant for - maybe that's it, they cannot get their head around indeed what context this device resides/exists in. Maybe because they do not have a need for such a device it must be a failure? I mean, I don't need a concrete mixer so reviewing one would be pointless, and I'd end up saying things like "it doesn't sound as nice as my NAD stereo" - maybe they're the same.
Ah Pantaloonie, was loading XP as easy as booting from an XP disc/ISO (tablet I assume)? Thanks...
FOOFTR said:
Ah Pantaloonie, was loading XP as easy as booting from an XP disc/ISO (tablet I assume)? Thanks...
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Click to collapse
Yup, almost that easy. Use Vista to partition off a few Gigs for XP, install XP, then use a Vista disc to repair the mbr so you can get back into Vista.
Then use VistaBootPro to create a boot menu.
I didn't use tablet edition at the time, and can't be bothered to go back and do it again; maybe next time I'm really bored I will.
FOOFTR said:
Maybe because they do not have a need for such a device it must be a failure? I mean, I don't need a concrete mixer so reviewing one would be pointless, and I'd end up saying things like "it doesn't sound as nice as my NAD stereo" - maybe they're the same.
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Click to collapse
Hi FOOFTR,
yes, I like your comparison. Made me laugh. And I think what you say is right in all sorts of contexts. You make up something that wasn't said or done in the first place and then you go on bashing it.
Thanks!
S.
Pantaloonie said:
Yup, almost that easy. Use Vista to partition off a few Gigs for XP, install XP, then use a Vista disc to repair the mbr so you can get back into Vista.
Then use VistaBootPro to create a boot menu.
I didn't use tablet edition at the time, and can't be bothered to go back and do it again; maybe next time I'm really bored I will.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats what I did.
I Used BartPE to make a bootable usb stick with xp pro on it. stole 6gb from Vista and installed xp pro. Viola, dual boot Shift!
Ok, so here's my dilemma. I want a convertible tablet pc. Problem is though, I think all of the ones on the market are poop. They either run android (I don't see the point still) and iOS, or are clunky and rediculously expensive. But I had a extremley bright idea. Buy whatever laptop I like, slap a touchscreen on that *****, and be happy. Keep in mind that as a poor college student with no job, I will probably never be able to afford this
1. Take apart laptop completley, Rip out the green bullcrap.
2. Mod case to be suitable as a convertible...or just look cool.
3. Rverse USB port to face inside
4. Close USB off from the outside
5. Get a USB Touchscreen conversion kit, which im sure come in many different flavors (Capacitive, Multitouch, Resistive), or better yet use a connector designed for computer internals, making #3 and #4 useless.
6. Add 3rd party accelerometer for Poitrait/Landscape orientation
7. Find a suitable hinge (or make one) and replace it
8. Boot laptop, install drivers for touchscreen and accelerometer
9. Pat myself on the back for custom making a tablet PC?
In my opinion the hardest part would be modding the case to be suitable as a convertible tablet, which can't be too hard. I have access to MIG/TIG welders, sheet metal cutters, grinders, ect. and I know people who know how to use them, so working with metal shouldn't be too dificult. In fact, I probably could just build a case myself from scratch. I also have alot of experience with plastic, so that's not a problem although I'd prefer to use metal for structural parts.
Touchscreen conversion kits seem to be all over the internet with a quick google search, and it shouldn't be too hard to find high quality capacitive touchscreen panels.
Walcom Bamboo Stylus because I'm a G
Accelerometers that work with windows I don't know about, but it cant be too hard Amirite? You can find ANYTHING for sale on the internet.
If I do do this however it will probably be in the summer (when I have a job). The only probelm I might have is the internals, seeing as I've never handled computer internals before. My brother did build his computer though, and I have a friend who also builds computers. It dosen't seem too hard compared to the other stuff like modding the case. While the laptop is dissasembled I'd probably put the parts in ziplock bags to keep them away from dirt and debris while I'm not using them. As long as I'm careful I don't thinkim going to mess anything up.
Good idea or no?
Good idea. Just keep in mind that the whole thing would be much heavier than a regular tablet, so holding it in hand would be difficult.
I have seen an EEE PC modded with a touchscreen, but the keyboard part was still there.
Just get a transformer lol...
What is wrong with Android? What is it you need to do that it won't?
My other idea would be to tell you most android devices are capable of running linux too?
Sounds like alot of work..and there are suitable models on the market, but if you wanna do it?
By the time you get around to it I wonder where technology will be...
PS ziplock bags? NO! Get some static bags..ziplocs are crazy static-charged! Honestly though, sounds like you are a good deal away from being able to deconstruct and reconstruct a laptop..the integrated circuits are ridiculously small and fragile..
PPS The hardest part might be actually getting the accelerometer sensors to function..which is where android comes in..you have to actually write some code into your operating system that will recognize and react accordingly withing the right parameters in your code..devs on this sight have problems with accelerometers that otherwise worked on a stock rom on OEM machines, god knows what it would take to get one working on a machine that never intended to have one by design?
That is all
What's old is new again
It's funny we did something similar a few years ago to build PC's into cars and trucks. For that application and at that time it made sense. Today we essentially just make custom docks for COTS tablets so that they integrate with the car.
If you're opposed to Android and other mobile OS's my suggestion is to start looking around craigslist for convertible tablet/laptops like those from HP and Dell or look for a cheap HP slate. I've seen gently used Slates going for around $200-300 and they run windows 8 reasonably well. I've seen convertibles close to that price as well.
Unless you are just dead set on a fabrication project i'd strongly suggest taking advantage of off the shelf hardware and mass production pricing and spend your extra time and money learning how to get the most of of those components.
If you do go ahead with this then weight and cost will be your biggest issues. I think a better twist on this would be to figure out how to make a transformer type of dock for other popular tablets. If you can make them well and make them cheap then sell a few and buy what you really want.
The reason I don't like android is because It's not a desktop OS. I'll be building this tablet-y thing for graphics/image editing, word processing and a little bit of gaming in between and I'm not 100% sure about android graphics programs. I like to keep it simple and use MS Paint, then GIMP if i need a more powerful program. I'm also a windows fanboy and it's what I've been using ever since I was 2... I also like to build things.
I hate the transformer prime. I want a convertible tablet, not a tablet and a little dock thingy...won't serve my purposes.
I didn't know Ziplock bags are staticy by nature. Thanks for the tip.
As far as the accelerometer, I don't know much about them but if it's super difficult I'm probably not going to bother with it. I'll maybe install a switch?
It's hard to beat windows for functionality but you might check out paint.net as a free replacement for paint.
Over all though I get the idea that you're a little in over your head on this.
Sent from my HTC Flyer using XDA App
LexusFman said:
I hate the transformer prime. I want a convertible tablet, not a tablet and a little dock thingy...won't serve my purposes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you seen the Eee Pad Slider?
Also, Adobe photoshop for android = $10
https://market.android.com/details?id=air.com.adobe.pstouch&hl=en
LexusFman said:
The reason I don't like android is because It's not a desktop OS. I'll be building this tablet-y thing for graphics/image editing, word processing and a little bit of gaming in between and I'm not 100% sure about android graphics programs. I like to keep it simple and use MS Paint, then GIMP if i need a more powerful program. I'm also a windows fanboy and it's what I've been using ever since I was 2... I also like to build things.
I hate the transformer prime. I want a convertible tablet, not a tablet and a little dock thingy...won't serve my purposes.
I didn't know Ziplock bags are staticy by nature. Thanks for the tip.
As far as the accelerometer, I don't know much about them but if it's super difficult I'm probably not going to bother with it. I'll maybe install a switch?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, I've got photoshop, an office suite, and tons of games, I'd never have to touch a PC again..I am a graphic designer by trade! I can even watch hulu (something not supposed to be capable of on android platforms), I've got a nice stylus and a full qwerty keyboard and mouse- I'm working on the OG transformer not the Prime, as far as I can tell the Prime was pushed too quickly and has issues with all of it's radios due to the metal shell..the TF101 does not have these issues, and the TF700 (basically the prime with the GPS and radios fixed and better resoultion) is available if you don't want to go for the OG transformer.
Seriously sounds like you're trying feverishly to open a can of worms to get a windows tablet when in reality there is no need and windows is given a run for it's money with the new ICS android on the way. Trying to unlock a windows phone after unlocking a whole bunch of Android devices would quickly turn you off of Microsoft as an OS IMO, that's what made me an Android fanboy (I was a windows guy previously, now I'm leaning more and more towards linux/android for their open source code user-friendly programability). But, if you are determined to do something the hard way = the expensive and labor/time-consuming way, no one is going to stop you
Just remember- in the world of technology things are done: Right, Cheap, and/or Fast. BUT, you can only choose two..
I've done this already with a eeePC 700.
1. The resistive touchscreen. You'll need a stylus for that.
2. Typing with a stylus is horrible.
3. It was heavy. Even when it was only 7inch screen. The battery made it heavy. (but I had 9hours of battery life)
4. You couldn't navigate the boot menu (without an external keyboard)
5. Resistive touchscreen is crap for drawing, because you still want to support your hand on the screen while drawing, which you couldn't do.
6. Moving Items around sucked (no drag and drop)
and many more.
I used it in my bed, for browsing. was good enough, until the touchscreen cable snapped. (I didn't have an external keyboard, so I had to open the tablet, connect the keyboard, and navigate the boot menu when I had to)
Hope this helped. Though it was fun to build it and use it, it's not what you would call an 'every day' tablet
romitkin said:
Good idea. Just keep in mind that the whole thing would be much heavier than a regular tablet, so holding it in hand would be difficult.
I have seen an EEE PC modded with a touchscreen, but the keyboard part was still there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think it would be much heavier, in fact I think the idea is perfect for modification of a netbook. It would probably be cheapest. since so much case modding is required and so many enclosure fabrication resources are handy, to put together a frankenstein out of 2 or 3 broken netbooks. Find someone who smashed the screen of one netbook, another one who fried the board of theirs, find a total-loss broken tablet PC (like dropped in lake michigan level of total loss so it will cost pennies) and get the ribbon cable and swivel element from there. I think if this idea is applied to a netbook it would be excellent in size and weight as well as functionality. And with the x86 version of android's progress, it could even be running android like a tablet in screen out mode, and change to webtop mode when its swiveled. Put a netbook mobile broadband card in there, many netbooks have open card expansions under the screw-out panels underneath, if not you would have to choose between wifi or taking the wifi expansion out in favor of a mobile broadband card, and certainly make sure that the card is supported by your wireless provider if you choose to go the mobile broadband route. With verizon or sprint you will most likely have to acquire a mobile broadband card out of a netbook that was originally sold by the company, but be sure to check and make sure the MEID is clean before paying anything for one, if the seller defaulted on a contract they used to acquire it, you might as well flash the thing to cricket or metroPCS and use them as your mobile broadband carrier. With either wifi or mobile broadband, as well as bluetooth, don't forget the antenna! yeah that thing you have to unhook from the other side of the card to take it out, you need that. (oh yeah, bluetooths are included as expansion cards sometimes too, if so you could always remove this to make room for the mobile broadband if you don't use bluetooth. I sure don't and probably wont until they drop the rediculous prices of non-audio bluetooth interfaces to acceptable and competative levels.)
That project actually sounds pretty freakin cool, the type of thing I'd do if I wasn't already swamped with projects. Definetly keep us posted if you decide to go through with it, as I pointed out, if you build it from netbook parts it should be well within your budget, netbooks run much cheaper then notebooks already, but a netbook is comperable in power to most current android devices and thus is suitable to handle most things you'd use a tablet PC for, just not high powered stuff like compiling code or rendering animation or playing 3d online games.
Edit: I'd like to add and point out that as a regular user of an acer netbook running ubuntu, it is wise to refrain from excessive multitasking, the atom had to sacrifice a bit of things we've become accustomed to in notebooks to meet the low power consumption and operating temperature requirements, and a lot of those things are things that mostly benefit multitasking. You will not be happy if you try and run a jillion programs at the same time.
That being said ubuntu's new primary UI, I forget what it's called evolve or something like that, it is an excellent UI for netbooks, perfectly space-optimized, especially in the vertical range which gets filled quick on lil netbook screens. I'm not sold on it and prefer to go with gnome or xfce on desktops and normal-sized notebooks, but it is top-notch on a netbook. I'd also recommend not messing with the accelerometer at first and including it later as it may be a pain to implement correctly in comparison to the limited amount of functionality it brings to the table. I'd rather have something that works personally that I can make additions to then pull my hair out trying to throw everything in the first time right.
---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------
Will_nonya said:
It's hard to beat windows for functionality but you might check out paint.net as a free replacement for paint.
Over all though I get the idea that you're a little in over your head on this.
Sent from my HTC Flyer using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have to LMAO @ this comment. If users would ever actually push developers to release for the linux platform, especially hardware manufacturers (which is ridiculous since all they would have to do is release their code open source, or even just parts of their code and the community would do the rest. Doesn't matter much tho, it's mostly crappy chinese hardware that isn't supported by linux, and their HQs more then likely don't speak enough english to be able to request anything, beleive me I've tried to contact MSI before.... most hardware worth running is fully supported tho)
But point is, I feel like it is extremely cumbersome whenever I'm forced to use windows, apart from trying to use unsupported hardware or cross-platform software (although wine and mono have made GIGANTIC leaps in usability). I pretty much never have to deal with drivers, updates to all software happens automatically, it's become so self-maintaining that I'm ashamed of how lazy of a linux user I've become. When I actually do have to do something even remotely advanced I have to think for a minute about it. Usually the only thing that really requires a lot of getting under the hood that I ever have to do is when I set up my audio-production setups which is even a lot easier now that they have dedicated repositories for them, and when set up correctly the real time preemptable kernel will run circles around any windows or OSX setup latency-wise. I was pulling lower latency with computers recording with ardour, and sequencing/synthesizing/sampling with seq24 amSynth, and qsampler, 5 years older then any PC I would test it against running windows with Reason and Protools. the Jack audio drivers that allowed software to plug audio inbetween applications directly across the PCM was just icing on the cake.
Windows is good software, but linux has certainly surpassed it by leaps and bounds. Windows still rules for gaming because of directX and industry unwillingness to port to linux, but the period of time right after Microsoft declared it was removing directX support from XP on further releases saw linux catch up with windows for a little while as they rushed wine to support the newest directX making it actually possible to actually run new releases under windowsXP even. Curses microsoft, foiled again! And off topic, but furthermore, I can't believe people still pay so much money for that god damn talking paper clip, openoffice.org ftw!
As I said windows isn't bad software, I said before in these forums actually that if windows ran a microsoft controlled repository to distribute all software for windows through, like linux, it would have similarly non-existant problems with viruses. Having people go around the wild-west of the internet downloading and installing programs from there without even thinking about it is just asking for the malware and adware problems windows experiences. Windows is good software, linux is just much better software.
Too complicated...
On a second thought how about moding a cheap Tablet with better parts. Is it even possible like are the parts such as a processor, camera, or the radio chip available for tablets and phones.
Why dnt you get a transformer?
In my opinion, it would just be better to settle for an table, prices are gonna drop really soon. The market for Eee PC's alike has diminished since the release of the ipad.
This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone.
A lot of things to doo, better start with a simple tablet and try to upgrade it if possible... dont know if its possible btw.
I did something almost like this.
Took apart a dirt cheap acer aspire one with a small 8 GB SDD.
Small 280 Atom 1.6GHz cpu and cheap intel GMA gpu.
Inverted the screen
Added a extra 512MB ram and inserted a 16GB SD card.
My battery however did not stand up to the task so i ordered a 9 cell pack.
It ran quite stable with 6 days standby or 12hours of heavy usage.
The lack of a accelerometer however made it a pain for quite a few games.
But i did have a vague plan to get value's from it into the android OS using a AVR and a few other cheap parts.
Many manufacturers still produce cheap atom notebooks like these.
But hardware specs have gotten better and better, so you should be able to pick one up for cheap still.
http://www.axiotron.com
Soooo 2008...
I'm doing this with an old pentium 3 thinkbook. I know its not really that great of a computer but it at least redeems it as a usable device.
sounds interesting will looking forward for it....
Good Idea!
Yeah, I'm talking to you
I'm really surprised at some of the scorn poured on Metro on WP8.
What I've noticed:
When I browse on the Metro IE, my screen is clutter free!
I have social feeds, direct to tiles that I can see.
What I notice when I go back to W7, and observe others.
Peoples desktops are full of junk/work in progress/files they haven't "dealt with". Almost like a notice board, waste paper bin. Stickie note collector.
I used to work this way. I also used to use email as my reminder/work scheduling system.
I've stopped being bogged down by email by originally using Evernote, then moved to OneNote, as I like the sync via Skydrive (WP7 of course) but also that each section is just a file on a drive.
My email is very low, it doesn't stress me. I have a better GTD style "worflow".
All my files are filed, either on Skydrive or SharePoint. Clutter no more.
My kids don't do email. At all.
I've also noticed at work that it is programmers who don't like change. Which to me seems odd, as they are the smart people? But there are different types of smart, and concepts, futures etc sometimes seem to illude them.
Ramble ramble. I think Windows 8 is on the right path.
Ironically I've found W8 to work better on my desktop than on the Dell Duo tablet I've tried it on. Perhaps this will change when the hardware is more targetted, but the hot corners were inconsistent and I clammered for mouse.
I want pictures, fast links, social feeds and real information on my desktop. Not the contents of my bin.
I'm very curious how this will play out. Another Vista, or Windows 7+ ?
Time will tell. But I really _love_ W8. I hate going "back" to W7 now.
Are naysayers sticks in the mud, or reflective of how the masses will take W8.
Intruiging times.
(For the guy saying he will go to Mac, thats funny as Launchpad is similar to the Metro start screen. Recent updates have changed scroll direction to match touch.)
hear hear!
Right On.
http://www.winsupersite.com/content...s-8-consumer-preview-call-common-sense-142476
very well said, even though i disagree with some of your points, your statement was very well thought out.
personally after using W8, i was dying to get back to W7, for some of the same reasons you enjoyed W8.
I'm a little OCD about my start screen being aesthetically pleasing, so i keep it very clean and nice, with only the recycle bin, libraries, and 3 programs against the left side. Link if you care. i will occasionally dump a file or folder on the desktop as it is the easiest way to access said file or folder at the time, until i can put it "away" or am done with it. Not dissimilar to getting what you're working on IRL out of your desk drawer, and leaving it out while you use it (IMHO) all my stick notes go on my android phone, on the screen right of home. i don't email much, when i do i use my phone as my notification. if i need to write one i'll jump on my tablet or gmail's web interface: i have no need for it to be integrated with my PC. i also fancy myself as a causal rookie photographer, so i take a lot of pictures and don't always toss out the not-the-best ones. i don't necessarily want those scrolling through my homescreen. I also don't really use social media, so that's not that applicable to me.
and having used Lion after using W8CP, i do like it, but i actually found launchpad pretty pointless.
i have nothing against the metro theme or design language, i simply think the execution of the UI for non-touch is badly done. things like the charms and hot corners make it un-intuitive and confusing to existing, non-geek users. multitaking is too difficult for your average joe "I click E to get to 'E'nternet, right?" to comprehend easily. all your points are valid, but i think you're over-estimating the average consumer.
I'm not stubborn as you think I am. Just to make you understand in your simple language. I just don't use my desktop PC to read emails or share every freaking thing I do on FB or twitter unlike you and few others. On internet browser I have to switch among multiple tabs fast Then switch to software like adobe dreamweaver, PS, FTP client, etc. I can keep all open and reduce the shell size so I can follow all work at once and lot faster, its easier on my high res big screen and on metro ui I can't resize any metro apps cause my desktop thinks that its a f..king tablet. What you can't see is MS is trying to sell their tablets and phones to their existing desktop users. Which is unfair to us.
And in metro UI it kills most time finding the opened tabs. Hell with it now It has many flaws but you wouldn't care cause software.. sorry "app" like Ms paint is the only thing you have learned to use so far and of course you can see all you social feeds on the "homescreen" itself.
Sorry, just being polite.
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I thought I might add........
I think people misunderstand the difference between Apps and Applications/Programs, I'm not sure your suppose to see them the same way.
Applications/Programs traditionally are used on the desktop. They are fully featured software for the doings of complicated things. The desktop interface in Windows 8 is still the place to do such work, that's why it's still there. High Power Activities such as PhotoShop, Video Editing, Big Release Games etc
Apps, these are small quick programs for doing smaller less intense and demanding jobs. The job of an App is to perform simple low power task such as mp3 playing, picture viewing, Calendar Entries, Emails.
The differences maybe subtle at first glance but it only takes a moment to realise the significance. Only in recent years have Pc's become powerful enough to do multiple small tasks at the same time properly, there was no real power difference between watching a video and editing one. Now there is a clear gulf between the 2 power states & it makes complete sense for an operating system to reflect it.
Laptops have had different "power states" for sometime now, they conserve battery life for normal tasks but gives you an option to turn them up if and when its required. Cpu's always used to run at full blast all the time. Most cpu's Idle themselves when not required now, some even overclock themselves depending on demand. I could go on, the Tegra 3 uses a separate underclocked core when being used for low power consumption applications.
The Metro UI simply bundles all those small things that we do everyday into one easy place. None of these tasks demand huge attention so a live tile is all that's required to display what you need to know at a glance. Then you hop back to your desktop to continue with the real tasks at hand.
Theres my 27 cents worth.
m0nkf1sh said:
I thought I might add........
I think people misunderstand the difference between Apps and Applications/Programs, I'm not sure your suppose to see them the same way.
Applications/Programs traditionally are used on the desktop. They are fully featured software for the doings of complicated things. The desktop interface in Windows 8 is still the place to do such work, that's why it's still there. High Power Activities such as PhotoShop, Video Editing, Big Release Games etc
Apps, these are small quick programs for doing smaller less intense and demanding jobs. The job of an App is to perform simple low power task such as mp3 playing, picture viewing, Calendar Entries, Emails.
The differences maybe subtle at first glance but it only takes a moment to realise the significance. Only in recent years have Pc's become powerful enough to do multiple small tasks at the same time properly, there was no real power difference between watching a video and editing one. Now there is a clear gulf between the 2 power states & it makes complete sense for an operating system to reflect it.
Laptops have had different "power states" for sometime now, they conserve battery life for normal tasks but gives you an option to turn them up if and when its required. Cpu's always used to run at full blast all the time. Most cpu's Idle themselves when not required now, some even overclock themselves depending on demand. I could go on, the Tegra 3 uses a separate underclocked core when being used for low power consumption applications.
The Metro UI simply bundles all those small things that we do everyday into one easy place. None of these tasks demand huge attention so a live tile is all that's required to display what you need to know at a glance. Then you hop back to your desktop to continue with the real tasks at hand.
Theres my 27 cents worth.
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thank you so much for your reply. actually youre the first one who put in some logic to your words over here. Now my problem is for people who have a high end quad core processor, ram, gpu, etc for doing 10 things at once and not one at a time. small things like music player doesnt require to take up the full screen with 100's of "buy" button.
App is supposed to be small and on windows desktop they could just keep it as tiles or widgets on screen and keep the rest of desktop as it was or might changed the look to match the metro ui just keep the real desktop pc experience alive.
Right now I have to switch to the desktop version of IE to watch videos on youtube just because windows ph and tablets don't support flash hence no flash support for new IE on prime desktop. Of course after few days I can download other metro browsers when they release which might support flash but everything looks very messed up right now on W8.
It's clearly going to be like another Vista release which was still okay but this is utter crap cause I dont want to use my desktop as my tablet.
Widgets/gadgets appeared with vista but weren't commonly adopted, I think this was due to a lack of interested by programmers, the financial incentive came from the phone market a little later. My personal issue with the gadgets was clutter (the original posters comments prevail).
Flash support is another story. Adobe own Flash & the people putting together HTML5 as a standard want to use an Open Source base for streaming web video. In general this seems like a good idea apart from the wide use of flash already on sites like Iplayer, Youtube etc and they are radically effected by this & they will either choose to adopt or not. I think they probably will, a lot of Youtube videos are already compatible & if they start forcing all videos to be HTML5 compliant the transition shouldn't be too painful.
Remember Windows 8 is Beta, early adopters will always pay a price for progress.
Personaly I don't normaly use IE & therefore Im forced back to the Desktop for Internet Browsing anyway.
Just as widgets I see the same with metro, devs will have lack of interest and eventually win desktop PC will reach a saturation point just like wp7 though I hope not.
But see what MS is doing right here they want to increase the wp7 apps number to increase so they've introduced metro ui as prime desktop so devs those who works on PC software can later just scale it down for wp7 too. And Eventually that'll never happen cause most of the devs are just into productivity and not into designing metro apps which focuses more on looks, the devs are not ready to proceed that yet. How can I be so sure? Well WP7 is right in front of you.
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bornotty said:
Just as widgets I see the same with metro, devs will have lack of interest and eventually win desktop PC will reach a saturation point just like wp7 though I hope not.
But see what MS is doing right here they want to increase the wp7 apps number to increase so they've introduced metro ui as prime desktop so devs those who works on PC software can later just scale it down for wp7 too. And Eventually that'll never happen cause most of the devs are just into productivity and not into designing metro apps which focuses more on looks, the devs are not ready to proceed that yet. How can I be so sure? Well WP7 is right in front of you.
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Some of the main app suppliers for phones have already confirmed they will be porting their apps to windows, Firefox has also confirmed they are working on a Firefox metro ui interface. There are now thousands of companies who specialize in Apps alone & make a healthy living from it. The Metro UI is written in Html5 which is to become the web standard therefore compatible on all devices(in theory) and based on a common computer language that a lot of Devs already know. Microsoft, although this is probably yet to be confirmed, were saying that the Windows 8 Store will give a higher percentage of the sales revenue back to the developers than Google or Apple too.
So if you already have Apps you sell it would be easy enough to convert it, the conversion would be to the future web standard code, that you already know how to use and the extra market place, which is going to be installed onto millions of computers, giving you a good market coverage, will pay you more money for your work than the markets you already use. The only problem that I see is that its an offer that's too good to be true for Devs. But Equally, knowing Microsofts marketing strategy history would suggest that "Cut Throating" your competitors for market share wouldn't be such a big leap for them.
Although I could keep debating this, time will tell. The truth is, Apps are probably here to stay in one form or another, they have already proven themselves on Mac, Android, Wii, Xbox live Arcade, PlayStation etc. Windows late adoption only shows that its inevitable. I think your quite right that Microsoft has made a point of putting it main stage in order to encourage adoption & I think it will work.
Windows 8 is not Vista. Vista didn't work very well & was far too demanding for the existing systems people owned. They also hid it away so it could be a surprise. That why Windows 7 had such a large Beta launch and why Windows 8 has just had an even larger one. Windows 7 ran much faster than Vista & Windows 8 is faster again.
Anyways I quit the debate here, ill just be answering peoples problems if I can help from now on. My last piece of advice "One should float like a leaf on the river of life, & kill old lady!"
Metro is amazing i love it but the only problem is its not a desktop os. For laptops it amazing I say not good for desktop because nowaday desktop is a Family computer not a Personal computer. But you can do some mods and remove metro and everythings fine.
Also Windows 8 uses a lot less ram and is a hell lot faster
Alright, i want to make this flat out, i am at the middle of almost everything when considering picking up an tablet.
Right now, i have already owned a massive computing in a form of a laptop (i7 3610QM + GTX 675M + 16GB RAM) and i do all the heavy stuffs on it (Photoshop, Vegas rendering ... blah).
But with the growing of the tablet market, i find myself a little bit out of place and really considering of picking up a tablet myself, a Windows Tablet ( i don't like anything that related to iOS and find Android to be unsecured) . Just because i think the tablet might come very handy in some situation that you can't always bring out the 17-inch laptop like what i have. But the thing is, i am stuck between choosing the nVIDIA Tegra 3 Windows RT tablet with the Intel Atom Clovertrail series with x86 Windows 8. Sure, Microsoft has Surface Pro and i love that thing, but i don't necessarily need the power of the i5 in such a small tablet like that, because i have already had my i7 do all the heavy work.
The thing is, with all the review that i have read so far, 10/10 of them said that the Atom is seriously underpowered and will cause "not-pleasant" Windows Experience, but in this case, they are running the x86 version of Windows 8, that mean all the Legacy Programs will work. While the Tegra 3 (Surface RT) has been claimed to give a smooth experience with Windows RT, but then again, sometime you will feel out of place because you can't run any x86-based App.
So my question is , what is your suggestion? I am leaning a little bit over to the Atom x86 side, just because it can run the Legacy apps, but the Windows RT won't really bother me to the point that i can't handle it. I would love to hear anybody here that are using the RT version, and also the x86 version of Windows 8 but with the Atom Chip.
I use the Surface RT (Tegra 3 ARM chip), but I make heavy use of the hacks available to unlock third-party desktop software and have compiled several such desktop apps myself. I also sometimes use the x86 compability layer that mamaich (on this forum) has hacked together; it's far from fast but suffices to run some software that I was unable to port.
I make very, very little of Windows Store apps except for a handful of games. With a genuinely full web browser available (including Flash and ad blocking), and the Touch Cover trackpad, I find myself using the browser probably more than all non-game apps, including Mail and Skype (the only two I use much at all) combined. I do use Office on the tablet, however (again, in desktop mode).
GoodDayToDie said:
I use the Surface RT (Tegra 3 ARM chip), but I make heavy use of the hacks available to unlock third-party desktop software and have compiled several such desktop apps myself. I also sometimes use the x86 compability layer that mamaich (on this forum) has hacked together; it's far from fast but suffices to run some software that I was unable to port.
I make very, very little of Windows Store apps except for a handful of games. With a genuinely full web browser available (including Flash and ad blocking), and the Touch Cover trackpad, I find myself using the browser probably more than all non-game apps, including Mail and Skype (the only two I use much at all) combined. I do use Office on the tablet, however (again, in desktop mode).
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So there are actually a way to run Legacy App on the RT with an extra layer of Virtualization? I mean, most of the time i can just use the laptop, so i don't require the tablet to be able to run 100% what i want to run with Windows 8, but some x86 app like Foobar2000, i would like to see it run because i also have a lot of music in FLAC and others type that XBOX Music App doesn't play.
And are there any news on the VLC for RT? Heard that they have been developing that, would be nice if they can play MKV files.
It's an emulation (well, technically dynamic recompilation) layer, not virtualization in the usual sense. The performance hit is massive - I certainly would not recommend trying to run a software media decoder through it - but it doesn't require running a whole additional OS (the way virtualization usually does). My point was basically that RT works for me because I ignore at least 50% of its intended use cases and add a bunch of new ones - something that a normal user would not do. If I were limited just to what's in the store, I would feel that the RT is a waste of money, but that's because I don't like the way the store apps work and have yet to discover one that was A) worth using and B) couldn't be done better using a desktop app.
The x86 emulator is very slow. 0.1ghz as an incredibly rough guess that's not entirely accurate but gives a vague idea of performance. The original Age of empires plays ok as do a few other old applications but chances are most things you run through the emulator won't actually run.
There is a jailbreak for windows RT that allows installation of non store applications, but these applications need specifically porting to windows RT. The advantage of the ported applications is that they aren't being emulated, they are run natively utilising the full power of the tablet. However few applications have been ported so far but the situation is improving.
If you need desktop apps then you are best off with the atom tablets. They aren't as slow as the media make out, they just aren't fast either. The chips in current tablets are a bit more powerful than those in netbooks and are at a higher clock speed but they still won't come anywhere near your other machine. I do know a few people that happily use minecraft and visual studio on atom netbooks.
i've got both the 700t and 500t but find myself using the 500t far more. mainly it's used for media consumption and artwork. i use sketchbook pro, sai, and photoshop 12 (cs5) with no real problems. sure it's not as fast as the 700t, but i can keep on going for 12+ hours on the atom where the i5 dies after 5.5 hrs (faster when watching a movie). i generally keep my screen at 0% brightness since i'm indoors and the battery life still sucks on the 700t. if i have to remain tethered to an outlet i'd much rather be using something more powerful.
i have no regrets about getting the atom, but the i5... i should have sent that back and bought a gaming laptop. i'm not saying that the 700t is a bad tablet, it's pretty dang good, but the way i use my tablets battery life is more important. i thought i could squeeze 6-7 hours out of the 700t since i keep the screen dim.
My main, 4-5 year old macbook pro, seems to slowly be dying. HDD making weird noises, dead pixels on edges, power randomly turning off all the way, the works. I know some of this stuff is fixable, and I'll probably come around to it later, but right now I'm looking into getting a new computer, preferably a windows 8/ windows 8.1. While looking around for what my replacement would be, I know that some tablets, such as the surface pro, run windows 8. I think it would be cool to have a computer i could develop on and then go to class and turn it into a tablet and take notes on it. I don't know much about development, since I am a noob at it, and I'm going to collage in computer science next year, I don't know much about computer specifications for development. So, what would be a good choice for a tablet pc for developing? I do understand that a laptop or a full on PC would probably be better, but I'm just looking at options right now.
The main criteria for serious development (note: nothing you do in the first year or two of a CS curriculum is likely to qualify, unless you're going to MIT or something) are:
A) High-resolution display (1920 x 1080 is what I'd consider to be the bare minimum for a dev box) with a large enough screen that you can read it easily at default DPI. This is needed so you can have multiple code views, or code + documentation, open at once.
B) A pretty good supply of RAM. Depending on the languages and IDEs you're using, and the size of the code bases you're working on, just what is *enough* RAM will vary, but I wouldn't want to use anything less than around 8GB in a dev box. That lets me have multiple IDEs open, and a ton of browser tabs and history (for documentation), all at the same time without swapping.
C) SSD if you can afford it; the performance boost on stuff like compiling is substantial. You'll want to make sure you have plenty of space, though; source code even for large projects is only occasionally into and rarely much past single-digits of gigabytes, but the full repository history for a long-running project can be huge, and you will probably want to have room for virtual machines too (which are literally full additional OS installations) so you can test on different systems, or learn to develop for both Windows and Linux on the same machine, etc.
D) A really good keyboard is a must. You'll spend a long time using it, and you'll use a lot of weird keys that you aren't used to hitting right now. You want a full keyboard (no missing keys; did you know that there are actually times when Scroll Lock is useful? No joke...) with full-sized key-spacings (a cramped keyboard will slow you down and be uncomfortable really quickly). What type of "feel" you want to the keyboard is up to you, but most people really like the Lenovo keyboards for laptops, for example; your basic cheap membrane keyboard is probably *not* going to be pleasant to use.
Surface Pro 2 might work, if you got the Type Cover, but I wouldn't really recommend it. You want a bigger display on a dev box, usually, and the keyboard is optimized for everyday use but not for development.
Different people have different preferences for development machines. However I think GoodDayToDies suggestions are all good ones.
I am currently a first year computer science student at the university of northampton. I went with just getting a laptop rather than a tablet hybrid of some sort. Ultimately settled on the HP Sleekbook 14. Its only an intel core i3 @1.8ghz with HD4000 graphics and 6gb of RAM, but for everything you do in first and 2nd year (and potentially 3rd if there is a 3rd year not really sure how things work in the US) thats actually plenty powerful. It isn't a solid state drive, which would have been nice. There is only one criticism with it for programming and that is the screen resolution, at 14" the physical size is fine, but it is only 1366*768 which I can fit my stuff onto but it would be much nicer to have a higher res screen as with a higher res you can fit more code on without having to decrease font sizes or hide task bars in your IDE or whatever (I decrease font size and unpin the solution explorer and toolbox etc in visual studio, eclipse I dont unpin anything because I am still trying to get used to it, its only when you use something else that you realise how good visual studio is).
I did computer science as one of my A-Level subjects. I didn't bother with getting a laptop for that, I used the school machines in lesson, took bus home, used my desktop PC at home (and seeming as I commute to northampton daily from home instead of staying on halls, I can still do the same, but for convenience sake I use the laptop still, with my setup its more comfortable). I did have a friend though that didn't have a desktop PC at home or anything, his only computer was a 10" netbook, 1.3ghz dual core atom on 1gb of RAM and one of those really sucky 600p displays. He did his entire A-Level computing coursework on it, didn't use the school machines for anything other than testing and viewing documentation (as in that school we weren't allowed details for the WiFi which also had a hidden SSID, even if we did connect to the network via wifi or plain old ethernet, there was a proxy server nobody had details for either, so no internet for unauthorised machines). He was perfectly happy to bash out code on a tiny keyboard and only see a few lines of it at one time, I really wouldnt recommend it though. Visual studio was also perfectly happy to run on that machine (albeit with about a 10 minute load time when first opening it), compiled and debugged ASP.net applications perfectly fine too.
Under default settings in eclipse and with the console window thing pinned open at the bottom of the display. I can fit 28 lines of code on a 768 pixel tall screen.
Tablets for taking notes dont last long. Only people still doing that since the beginning of term are either using a surface with touch cover and typing yet still having a pad of paper for drawing diagrams or there are 2 people with surface pro's who use the digitiser stylus. Under lecture note taking conditions capacitive pens and virtual keyboards dont cut it. Also seen a small handful of people using bluetooth keyboards with iPads. One of the 2 surface pro guys does also use the surface in lab sessions for doing his work, the other switches to a uni machine. If your fine with a small keyboard then yeah, you might be able to do devwork on a surface pro, but there are @"keys"^Which>'R'|arely {if ever} get touched during daily usage; They are often placed on smaller buttons on smaller keyboards, much harder to hit. If your going to spend a few seconds trying to hit shift+2 to type a " (I'm british, our keyboards arent the same) then its going to slow you down considerably, my mate with the netbook didn't have a problem with this, I couldnt do it though. I have used the apple wireless keyboard and can type reasonably well on that (even though its about netbook size), but I cannot use it for programming, although in my case thats because apple are morons who don't know what a british keyboard looks like so the symbols are in the wrong place for me (their idea of a british layout keyboard, because they do sell one, is slap a £ sign on the 3 key and give us a double height enter/return key, that is it, all of their changes), that wouldnt effect you in the US.
I would say anything with a core i3/i5 or even i7 will have the CPU horsepower to get your work done.
For first year stuff I highly doubt more than 4gb of RAM will be needed. but I will recommend 6-8 anyway for future proofing.
Unless you are doing a specialised pathway with graphics or gaming, don't bother with an integrated GPU, you won't really need it.
1366*768 screen res should be the absolute bare minimum, 1080p highly recommended though. When this machine is replaced one day, I will definitely be going 1080p.
You need a keyboard which is comfortable to use. Go to best buy or whoever else sells computers out there, use a few machines, see what features you do or do not want.
I cannot recommend something 10" in size for most people. I use 14", I wouldnt go smaller than 13". For that reason I wouldn't recommend a convertible. If you were to go convertible, at least go active digitiser to make up for it. Some of my lectures I just type up, most I just go old fashioned with active digitiser mk1 (also known as pen and paper).
I am however looking at either the dell venue 8 pro or the EVGA tegra note tablets as a note taking tool. Can't really justify the expense though on something that would purely be that, a note taking tool.
4 GB of RAM should be enough unless you plan to use emulators. If you use emulators, you might wanna boost that up to 8.
A video card is also useful, regardless of how "weak" performance it has in gaming. If you use a CPU built-in one, you will lose up to 1 GB of RAM depending on what you do.
The display is probably the most important of them all. You will spend lots of time looking at it trying to figure out what is going wrong, and if your eyes do not agree with the display, you will find your efficiency greatly reduced.