Database Users

OK -- what can I really use if for?

Please don't get me wrong -- I think the Shift represents a great advancement in UMPC technology. Having WM6 and WinVista (or WinXP) combined on 1 device is, IMHO, a super idea. And the form factor and build quality are very good. I'm impressed and, as Jenn at Pocketables pointed out, it's fun to use -- kind of grabs you. But unlike Jenn, I'm not ready to say I'll not part with it. I've liberated WM6 so I have as full a use of the WM6 side as I believe is so far available. I've got Vista humming, at least as much as the 1G RAM can live with. But if this is as far as I can go I don't see much more than another "gadget" to add to my collection. The 1G RAM limit is a show stopper -- slows the machine down and really limits what I can do in Vista. The 64MB limit in WM6, combined with inability to access the SD card slot (or even the USB slot) means my WM6 is crippled -- hardly any of what I'm accustomed to using can be routinely done. Throw in the 2 hr battery limitation in Vista -- it just isn't a very good "solution" for a road warrior.
I realize there are folks hard at work to improve on these and I commend them (and have contributed to the Shift Project) -- I really hope they succeed. But I have to say that what I'm looking at from HTC is, at best, a "beta" version -- they have so limited what's inside the box that it's hardly useful for anything. Considering the growing competition I doubt HTC will hold much share of this market.

agree
Huib

Interesting comments and many agree with. Given the amount of information available on the net about this device, and its limitations including SnapVue, battery etc etc, what motivated you to buy it? It seems to be a mismatch to me re. your requirements. I bought it even knowing all these things as it matched my needs.
A road warrior it is not. A media powerhouse it is not. A tiny portable always on email and document viewer/editor, plus web browser it is. I get 2.5hrs on Vista browsing the web - same as almost every other laptop I've ever owned, so I'm not surprised really...altho again, Vista leaves much to be desired in this respect - a spinning hard drive kills batteries.
I agree with you regarding the things they didn't get right - SnapVue is just silly right out of the box and Vista is a mistake. HTC really fvcked up there.
This device kind of reminds me of the Sony C1V picturebook I had (with that horrible Crusoe processor - if you think this chip is slow, that thing was lifeless)...awesome for what I wanted but that's where it stops...it doesn't extend beyond that and I'm comfy with that.
To answer the question, I use my Shift when I travel. I used to take my HX4700 but bluetooth 3G connection was slow, Opera was slow for browsing and the screen too small really. I had a b/tooth key board which was OK but another piece of kit that needed batteries and sync'ing etc etc. Now I carry a v. small bag with me when away and it holds the Shift, power packs, Archos 504, headphones and a few other bits and bobs...all I need. On planes I can type my reports in Mobile Word, sync it to Vista and tart them up and send. In hotels I can surf the web at my own pace on HSDPA with it plugged in to AC (on high performance setting). I can adjust my webpage using filezilla etc etc....basically all the things I couldn't do on the HX4700 (which I now use as a support device for the Archos, and as a GPS)....the Shift really filled my requirements. I almost bought the Fujitsu U1010 but the ones here didn't have 3G built in and the keyboard was harder to use that the Shift.
Next version, should HTC shift (no pun intended) enough of these first ones, should ideally have:
1. Higher res screen
2. Bigger hard disk
3. SnapVue fully functional with SD card, WiFi access etc etc
4. XP as an option
5. A battery compartment that allows for an extended one to be added
Aside from that, I still like my Shift and use it almost everyday...

FOOFTR said:
Interesting comments and many agree with. Given the amount of information available on the net about this device, and its limitations including SnapVue, battery etc etc, what motivated you to buy it? It seems to be a mismatch to me re. your requirements. I bought it even knowing all these things as it matched my needs.
A road warrior it is not. A media powerhouse it is not. A tiny portable always on email and document viewer/editor, plus web browser it is. I get 2.5hrs on Vista browsing the web - same as almost every other laptop I've ever owned, so I'm not surprised really...altho again, Vista leaves much to be desired in this respect - a spinning hard drive kills batteries.
I agree with you regarding the things they didn't get right - SnapVue is just silly right out of the box and Vista is a mistake. HTC really fvcked up there.
This device kind of reminds me of the Sony C1V picturebook I had (with that horrible Crusoe processor - if you think this chip is slow, that thing was lifeless)...awesome for what I wanted but that's where it stops...it doesn't extend beyond that and I'm comfy with that.
To answer the question, I use my Shift when I travel. I used to take my HX4700 but bluetooth 3G connection was slow, Opera was slow for browsing and the screen too small really. I had a b/tooth key board which was OK but another piece of kit that needed batteries and sync'ing etc etc. Now I carry a v. small bag with me when away and it holds the Shift, power packs, Archos 504, headphones and a few other bits and bobs...all I need. On planes I can type my reports in Mobile Word, sync it to Vista and tart them up and send. In hotels I can surf the web at my own pace on HSDPA with it plugged in to AC (on high performance setting). I can adjust my webpage using filezilla etc etc....basically all the things I couldn't do on the HX4700 (which I now use as a support device for the Archos, and as a GPS)....the Shift really filled my requirements. I almost bought the Fujitsu U1010 but the ones here didn't have 3G built in and the keyboard was harder to use that the Shift.
Next version, should HTC shift (no pun intended) enough of these first ones, should ideally have:
1. Higher res screen
2. Bigger hard disk
3. SnapVue fully functional with SD card, WiFi access etc etc
4. XP as an option
5. A battery compartment that allows for an extended one to be added
Aside from that, I still like my Shift and use it almost everyday...
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i agree and htc should also use SSD's to save more power and they should make sure they announce the correct specs.

FOOFTR said:
Interesting comments and many agree with. Given the amount of information available on the net about this device, and its limitations including SnapVue, battery etc etc, what motivated you to buy it? It seems to be a mismatch to me re. your requirements. I bought it even knowing all these things as it matched my needs.
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Click to collapse
Point well taken -- I should have added that my comments were stated with the proverbial tongue in cheek. I was well aware of the Shift's limitations and purchased one out of curiosity -- I've followed it since its initial announcement and had cancelled my preorder after seeing the limitations being documented. But I saw this one on ebay for several hundred $ less than retail and decided to look at it for myself.
I agree with the suggestions made and really hope HTC listens (if they decide to stay in the UMPC market -- that's not a "for sure" thing). I've tried five different UMPC's as well as the Sony TZ "subnotebook" and have yet to find what I think I'm after -- a truly business capable device small enough for my purposes (and that's really subjective, I know) yet powerful enough to replace my usual notebook (13.3" XPS). I knew the Shift wouldn't do this -- its very short battery life is a show stopper although I could carry an external battery pack. But the limited RAM and the very limited usefulness of SnapVu make it relatively useless to me so I'll end up ebaying it.
I'd hoped to generate more discussion in the hope that collective experience and wisdom would prove useful to the UMPC market.

There are some very interesting viewpoints here.
I purchased mine after following the news stories for months. I purchased it the moment it was available in the UK and paid nearly £900.
I knew the limitations, but had to buy one of these! It gets used a lot in our house. And I am always doing things to it. It's leberated and its dual boot with XP.
I use it to tinker with, watch movies and surfing. The wife loves it too and surfs on the sofa while watching the tele, she prefers it to any of the laptop we have because of the size. My daughter took it away for the weekend recently too so she could surf. Its such a versitile device. And most of all, PEOPLE STARE AT IT ON THE TRAIN/PLANE WHEN I'M ON BUSINESS!!! I don't really use the liberated Snapvue, I don't need to when its dual boot.
If I had a wish list, I would love to see an SSD in it and another 1GB RAM. The processor is fine for what I use it for, so I have no grumbles there.
My eldest daughter wants it for school, so it'll be used for that full time in September when she is a year 10.
I do understand that to some people its limited in its application, but for us as a family, its one of the better toys we've purchased (and we buy a lot of techy toys/gadgets!) The joys of working in IT means I am addicted to buying new toys!
I'm actually sat here in the garden using HSDPA typing this. Apart from a couple of phones, I don't have another device with this ability. why be inside when its such a sunny evening!

benktlottie said:
TIt's liberated and its dual boot with XP...... I don't really use the liberated Snapvue, I don't need to when its dual boot.
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What do you mean by "dual boot"? I have mine liberated but I'm not sure it dual boots?
Thanks!

brucewilsonpa said:
What do you mean by "dual boot"? I have mine liberated but I'm not sure it dual boots?
Thanks!
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Same here, I have dual boot, as in when powered up it asks whether you want to boot Vista or XP. Next stop, triple boot with Linux installed too, although that will be cutting it a bit fine for hard drive space.

Bruce, I think your comments, and the general community's will help deliver better products...I think they're constructive for sure.
I don't like it when people say product X sucks when indeed product X is not designed to do the very things they are comparing it against. I have read so many appalling reviews of the Shift - I'm ceratin 50% of the people won't have even used one...a classic is when someone said "the poky keyboard makes you wish for full size keyboard real estate..." - um, one cannot have a 7" screen device with an 18" keyboard...get real and take the device in the context it is meant for - maybe that's it, they cannot get their head around indeed what context this device resides/exists in. Maybe because they do not have a need for such a device it must be a failure? I mean, I don't need a concrete mixer so reviewing one would be pointless, and I'd end up saying things like "it doesn't sound as nice as my NAD stereo" - maybe they're the same.
Ah Pantaloonie, was loading XP as easy as booting from an XP disc/ISO (tablet I assume)? Thanks...

FOOFTR said:
Ah Pantaloonie, was loading XP as easy as booting from an XP disc/ISO (tablet I assume)? Thanks...
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Yup, almost that easy. Use Vista to partition off a few Gigs for XP, install XP, then use a Vista disc to repair the mbr so you can get back into Vista.
Then use VistaBootPro to create a boot menu.
I didn't use tablet edition at the time, and can't be bothered to go back and do it again; maybe next time I'm really bored I will.

FOOFTR said:
Maybe because they do not have a need for such a device it must be a failure? I mean, I don't need a concrete mixer so reviewing one would be pointless, and I'd end up saying things like "it doesn't sound as nice as my NAD stereo" - maybe they're the same.
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Hi FOOFTR,
yes, I like your comparison. Made me laugh. And I think what you say is right in all sorts of contexts. You make up something that wasn't said or done in the first place and then you go on bashing it.
Thanks!
S.

Pantaloonie said:
Yup, almost that easy. Use Vista to partition off a few Gigs for XP, install XP, then use a Vista disc to repair the mbr so you can get back into Vista.
Then use VistaBootPro to create a boot menu.
I didn't use tablet edition at the time, and can't be bothered to go back and do it again; maybe next time I'm really bored I will.
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Thats what I did.
I Used BartPE to make a bootable usb stick with xp pro on it. stole 6gb from Vista and installed xp pro. Viola, dual boot Shift!

Rant - Tablet Computing is really sucky

I have a Xoom WiFi only. What an amazing peice of kit. But it's crippled by the fact that Motorola or Google or whoever can't actually use the devices they make. I'm almost ready to throw mine in the bin it's so unusable.
- I had hoped I could use my Xoom on site rather than run round with my laptop, except I can't get files onto and off it easily. SyncToy won't play ball. I don't want to have to manually drag and drop each file in turn. Waste of time.
- Bluetooth and WiFi file transfer is just a missed opportunity
- SD card doesn't work
- Can't print reliably
- Simple features that are present on my HTC Desire are missing, like scheduling peak times for email polling so the wife doesn't get woken up at three in the morning if I forget to turn it off.
- Stupid stupid stupid stupid charger. No USB charging, which is supposed to be the universal standard. The charger is huge and the connector is so thin it'll break the first time someone trips over the cable.
- The Motorola Folio case is uggggggggly. Have these people not seen the Smart Cover for the iPad?
- I can stand the Xoom up in the folio case, but I can't charge it, because the charger connector is on the bottom. A poor attempt to get me to fork out more money for the charging dock I assume.
- Word, Excel etc, sort of work, but if you have headers and footers or anything like an automated spreadsheet, it ain't gonna work properly on Docs to Go or anything else for that matter. Good God, do these people not use the World's most dominant software?
It's great for games, and stuff though, but you CANNOT use it as a business tool; you'll spend all the time you were hoping to save in wrestling with the bloody thing.
The moral? Don't be an early(ish) adopter - I thought 6 months would be enough for Motorola to have this sorted.
TL;DR?
Rant over.

Sdcard is readable in 3.2 or u can simply root to make it fully usable
Usb charging is slow. The charger makes us can let our xoom fully charged super quiclly
The case for many ppl is nice
My bro bought it for business n he is quite happy with it

Have a lager and calm down, friend. I feel your pain.
However, you can save yourself a lot of grief by understanding that no matter what the marketing people say, a tablet is not a full laptop replacement yet, not even the iPad. You need to make some compromises if you intend to make full use of your Xoom while on the job.
First of all, lets discuss the charger. Moto opted not to allow the device to trickle charge simple because it would take far to long to fill the battery via a standard USB cable. Therefore they went for the dedicated charger which was a good choice under the circumstances. I agree I have worries to about the very thin connector, but they were working hard not to make the device too thick. THus far I have not brought the charger to the office because I have not had to charge the Xoom except for overnight. The battery can make it through a day pretty easily, so feel free to leave the charger behind and see how you do.
Next, Office apps. I agree, they are limited and are the same on pretty much every non-laptop you will try to work on. Key features are missing, other features work strangely...it gets ugly out there. Therefore, I try to restrict my Office app work on the Xoom to reading and making notes. I wouldn't try to actually create a document on the Xoom at this point, unless it was very short and/or I would be able to edit on my laptop later. I use the Polaris app that was provided with the Asus Transformer, which you should be able to find in the Xoom Apps forum here, and it actually does pretty well.
I have had good luck with Bluetooth transferring files, but it can take a while. You should try using the OTG connector in conjunction with a flash drive for larger files. It adds a step in the transfer but it works perfectly for me.
The folio case? I agree, ugly as sin. Therefore I go without a case during use since I really like the looks of the Xoom anyway. I put it into an iPad Exo Sleevecase from Waterfield (great company, great case) before putting it in my gear bag and it does just fine.
The Xoom is a fine business tool in my opinion, it just has its limitations. All tablets currently available are still at the stage where you are best off thinking of them as an extension of your laptop or desktop computer, not the whole shebang. Use it for the tasks it is suited for, and be creative with how you apply it to those tasks which are a bit beyond a tablet's skillset at the moment.
Remember, we went through a decade of clunky, useless TabletPCs before we suddenly had a burst of innovation (thanks Apple) to get to this point in mobile computing. We are still at the early stages...just think where we will be in a couple years. THAT is when tablets will really shine, and at the moment you are ahead of the curve, devising business use cases for tablets out of sheer necessity. That is not a bad place to be.

rschenck said:
Have a lager and calm down, friend. I feel your pain.
However, you can save yourself a lot of grief by understanding that no matter what the marketing people say, a tablet is not a full laptop replacement yet, not even the iPad. You need to make some compromises if you intend to make full use of your Xoom while on the job.
First of all, lets discuss the charger. Moto opted not to allow the device to trickle charge simple because it would take far to long to fill the battery via a standard USB cable. Therefore they went for the dedicated charger which was a good choice under the circumstances. I agree I have worries to about the very thin connector, but they were working hard not to make the device too thick. THus far I have not brought the charger to the office because I have not had to charge the Xoom except for overnight. The battery can make it through a day pretty easily, so feel free to leave the charger behind and see how you do.
Next, Office apps. I agree, they are limited and are the same on pretty much every non-laptop you will try to work on. Key features are missing, other features work strangely...it gets ugly out there. Therefore, I try to restrict my Office app work on the Xoom to reading and making notes. I wouldn't try to actually create a document on the Xoom at this point, unless it was very short and/or I would be able to edit on my laptop later. I use the Polaris app that was provided with the Asus Transformer, which you should be able to find in the Xoom Apps forum here, and it actually does pretty well.
I have had good luck with Bluetooth transferring files, but it can take a while. You should try using the OTG connector in conjunction with a flash drive for larger files. It adds a step in the transfer but it works perfectly for me.
The folio case? I agree, ugly as sin. Therefore I go without a case during use since I really like the looks of the Xoom anyway. I put it into an iPad Exo Sleevecase from Waterfield (great company, great case) before putting it in my gear bag and it does just fine.
The Xoom is a fine business tool in my opinion, it just has its limitations. All tablets currently available are still at the stage where you are best off thinking of them as an extension of your laptop or desktop computer, not the whole shebang. Use it for the tasks it is suited for, and be creative with how you apply it to those tasks which are a bit beyond a tablet's skillset at the moment.
Remember, we went through a decade of clunky, useless TabletPCs before we suddenly had a burst of innovation (thanks Apple) to get to this point in mobile computing. We are still at the early stages...just think where we will be in a couple years. THAT is when tablets will really shine, and at the moment you are ahead of the curve, devising business use cases for tablets out of sheer necessity. That is not a bad place to be.
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I have found the Xoom to be a great substitute for a laptop out in the field. I just email the files to my work pc, or use my Passport HDD or thumb drive to save...I use dropbox for some non-secure files. Cloud print works fine if you run Chrome on your pc. My work network is locked down tight but I use Splashtop HD to sync with and remotely access my home pc, so I can use full MS Word, Excel, PP etc. I use my Moto BT keyboard and an MS BT mouse if I need do do intensive writing/editing, otherwise Tablet Keyboard Pro or FlexT9 work great. I have the WiFi only Xoom but use my Clear 4G mifi hotspot for connectivity most places I need to be.
This can work. Rooting helps--gives you a few more tools. The battery life is great, especially if you set your screen to minimum necessary brightness and set a battery-saving screen-off profile in SetCPU.

Ok, I will admit that Xoom(as with many android devices) has some bugs to work out, but Android 3.2 has done a lot of fixes that you are talking about....And as for stuff like file managers it matters what one u use.

Some good responses here, I have been on a couple of business trips and left the laptop at home, taking just the Xoom. Sync with and use of Exchange email is brilliant (as it should be). What I had hoped to be able to do is modify spreadsheets while walking round sites, I have some great Excel sheets with drop downs and the like but that is not going to be happening any time soon.
I have found Memento, a great database app that will be my work around for this, but I shouldn't be working around...
I included the iPad in the "tablet computing is sucky" title.
My issue with Bluetooth, a technology that has been with us for years, is that it insists on asking me to OK every file - if I take 100 photos on a site survey, I want them to come over to my laptop with one approval, not 100. It can take a hour, that's fine, just stop asking me if it's OK...This has been a problem for as long as I have been using a smartphone (except my Nokia N73, that had great Bluetooth.)
My frustration remains that I have been able to see the potential of mobile computing and now we have powerful enough devices to deliver it, but the software just isn't there - as usual its the back room hobbyists providing the real world solutions, the paid for software falls very short of the mark.
You talk of 3.2, I have a work device so rooting is not possible and Motorola don't seem in any rush to update me. Any ideas?

66mustang said:
Some good responses here, I have been on a couple of business trips and left the laptop at home, taking just the Xoom. Sync with and use of Exchange email is brilliant (as it should be). What I had hoped to be able to do is modify spreadsheets while walking round sites, I have some great Excel sheets with drop downs and the like but that is not going to be happening any time soon.
I have found Memento, a great database app that will be my work around for this, but I shouldn't be working around...
I included the iPad in the "tablet computing is sucky" title.
My issue with Bluetooth, a technology that has been with us for years, is that it insists on asking me to OK every file - if I take 100 photos on a site survey, I want them to come over to my laptop with one approval, not 100. It can take a hour, that's fine, just stop asking me if it's OK...This has been a problem for as long as I have been using a smartphone (except my Nokia N73, that had great Bluetooth.)
My frustration remains that I have been able to see the potential of mobile computing and now we have powerful enough devices to deliver it, but the software just isn't there - as usual its the back room hobbyists providing the real world solutions, the paid for software falls very short of the mark.
You talk of 3.2, I have a work device so rooting is not possible and Motorola don't seem in any rush to update me. Any ideas?
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If you're taking pictures with your xoom, have it connected to a network (via a wifi network or phone tethering) you can use the auto upload feature that google+ has. That way you can access those pictures on your laptop as well by going to your google+ account.

I love my Xoom, even if my love for Motorola is waning, but I do have to agree to a point.
When I bought the thing, I had dreams of an all-in-one device... something that I could use as a laptop replacement but that I could also use to make phone calls.
Well, I can make phone calls using GrooveIP, but I would be lying if I said I was satisfied with this solution. GrooveIP works fine but generally kicks me out of Google Talk, which is pretty annoying given that I communicate more through chat than phone calls, so keeping it resident makes chat iffy. And speaking of GrooveIP, what's going on with the official Google Voice app for Honeycomb? I never imagined it would take Google so long to get it released.
The result? I finally decided to give up the dream and buy a new phone.
In a lot of ways, the Xoom has replaced my laptop for web surfing, but it doesn't make for a great word processor. I've purchased a few of the word processing apps available for Android, and they really aren't that great and lack key features such as auto-save. I still think that Google's official Google Docs app is the best of all available word processor apps, but even it is really mediocre on the Xoom. I think I gave it three stars in the market, and that might be one star too generous. I dislike Apple greatly, but iWork on the iPad is superior to anything available for Honeycomb. A native Google Docs Honeycomb app that doesn't rely on WebKit would be absolutely killer.
I still use my Xoom for most of my word processing, but it is a less than perfect solution. I love the size, and the tablet+bluetooth keyboard are still much more lightweight than my laptop, which makes them a more ideal travel companion. In fact, these days, the Xoom has replaced my laptop for about 85% of all my tasks, but it's still not a true laptop replacement.
I think it was unrealistic of me to expect my Xoom to be anything other than a tablet.

The first mistake was expecting it to replace your laptop + be productive as a business tool from the day you purchased it. Some things you mentioned the iPad 2 can't even do so it is what it is man.....
BUT if you use your xoom for play and your laptop for work then you won't have to worry about being stuck on your laptop charger all day long.

66mustang said:
- I can stand the Xoom up in the folio case, but I can't charge it, because the charger connector is on the bottom. A poor attempt to get me to fork out more money for the charging dock I assume.
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Easy solution: turn the Xoom upside down. There is no dedicated button, dedicated top or bottom for most applications. In that case power connection is in the top, easy to charge, easy to work on the tablel. Xoom works well for me as a laptop replacement.

I won't get into a long explanation as to why uninformed people should not be posting such a thread. Here is what I will say:
True... tablets cannot fully replace a laptop or PC just yet in terms of raw power, RAM, graphics, gaming, or features. Windows has been an OS for computers for a loooong time now. Honeycomb for tablets has not been around for that long. There is a HUGE difference between a tablet, and a desktop/laptop. I'll make this very clear for you so that it's easy to understand:
[Words of wisdom]
A desktop is a powerful computer that is meant to stay in one place at all times, a laptop is less powerful desktop computer that is portable, meanwhile a tablet is essentially an even more portable laptop with less power. It's not supposed to fully replace a computer in the first place, but rather work right along side it instead. Thus, one should not say tablet computing is "sucky". Apples and bananas as they say... cannot be compared. Don't even attempt to do such a thing.
[/End Words of wisdom]
Tablets are catching up fast in terms of overall specs to match computers, it's very impressive. They are currently working on beast quad core tablets. That's a lot of power for a small lightweight device.

Re: Charging - The Xoom uses a 7.4V/24.1Whr battery, so can't use USB charging which is only 5V. The iPad2 has a 3.8V/25Whr battery, so it can. (All current HC tabs AFAIK use 7.4V batt.)
The iPad2's USB wall-wart is 5V/2A, and users report it takes 3-4 hrs for a full charge. Based on this, charging from a PC's 5V/0.5A USB port would take a long time (charge time isn't linear to current level, but we're simplifying). So practically, you'd still have to lug along an AC charger for the iPad, although PC charging exists as an emergency measure.
Re: Charge adapter - Moto Mobo is a phone vendor. The Xoom is its first tablet, and it's likely that some components were common-sourced from existing phone parts. The smallish charge adapter plug is likely one. Ergonomic issues should be ironed out for the Xoom2, which undoubtedly will be thinner and lighter.
Re: Tablet as productivity device - It'd be interesting to see how much app support ICS gets, as HC didn't get much love from devs, or consumers for that matter. The major thrusts for ICS are phone+tablet convergence and cloud computing, at least as inferred from Google I/O '11. Productivity wasn't mentioned. It'd be a step up for Gbread phones, but I don't see a big improvement for current HC users.
On the flip side, if ICS is indeed incremental, then it should be here relatively soon after 3.2. My SWAG says Oct, which would be enough time for holiday shopping. If true, vendors would likely hold their 2nd-gen tablet offerings until that time. Else, we'll see the second wave starting in Sept. Moto's Xoom2 will serve as a bellwether.
Speaking of the Xoom2, my money is on it having the TI OMAP 4460, with the 7" probably using the 4430. Both are a big step up from the Tegra 2 wrt multimedia support, and the 4460's 1.5GHz speed will make for easy marketing pitch ("it's 50% faster!"). Pricing will likely be the same as current, ie USD$500 for 32GB wifi base model, and probably $400 for the 7".

I bought a really expensive power drill but it's terrible at hammering nails and useless for painting my walls.
I'm mad and posting about it.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App

hi_its_ryan said:
I bought a really expensive power drill but it's terrible at hammering nails and useless for painting my walls.
I'm mad and posting about it.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
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lol, did u try applying the paint to the drill before using it on ur wall

hi_its_ryan said:
I bought a really expensive power drill but it's terrible at hammering nails and useless for painting my walls.
I'm mad and posting about it.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
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+1 +1 +1 +1 +1
I think a tablet pc would be great OP?

my fav part of the gripe is about not using the worlds most dominant microsoft software... Of course they are not going to use it... Microsoft competes with android... Its the same as crying that your iphone cant run flash or windows programs...
I know it sucks but a tab is not a direct replacement for a laptop just yet... Theres a lot of ways to get around some of your gripes.. Like dropbox app for posting and syncing all your files to all your devices.. Docs to go.. It aint perfect but it helps... Etc...

My only gripe where I agree with the OP is the charger and not being able to charge when in the folio case...but when you consider that the battery lasts at least 24 hours with normal usage it's really not s big deal. I can get a good 5 work days when I use it to stream Pandora or Slacker over WiFi without needing to recharge.

Remote control your PC from your tablet. Then you have the best of both worlds.

brandogg said:
My only gripe where I agree with the OP is the charger and not being able to charge when in the folio case...but when you consider that the battery lasts at least 24 hours with normal usage it's really not s big deal. I can get a good 5 work days when I use it to stream Pandora or Slacker over WiFi without needing to recharge.
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Umm... someone already mentioned it, but... there is NOT a "correct" way to hold the Xoom, or any Honeycomb tablet for that matter. The soft keys are located on the screen itself, and will follow the screen when rotated, meaning you can hold it any way you want. Just unlock the screen rotation option, and then rotate the Xoom to position the charging port to the way that fits your needs. That is what sets Honeycomb apart from the rest. If the OP has this "complaint" he should think again before opening his mouth. It's called rotation... it's a feature. The Honeycomb developers want you to hold and position your tablet however you wish, not force you to hold it one way. Look it up, or better yet... use it.

its interesting to see the posts we have here...
personally i think a tablet is pretty close to becoming a laptop replacement... for some...
now... my laptop at the moment will probably crush many many desktops out there by a long shot (i definitely moved from desktops 5 years ago) but in saying that my battery life is HORRIBLE... i cant even go through 1 class and my charger is the size of a house brick lol but personally i love how i could whizz through a thousand, tabs, programs, music whatever with not one instance of lag and it dual boots like a boss and the 18 inch screen is amazing..
my xoom i bought it to hopefully be able to replace the aspect of taking my laptop to uni as we have alot of classes with just a powerpoint and we can type our own stuff from there (i just received my hk cheapo folio keyboard case today; as i dont see paying $50+ for one with a wire i would have preferred a bluetooth with trackpad or something) and i think im going to try and leave my laptop at home next time.. i agree the word compatible apps are sometimes uses, i cant find one where i can edit the notes section of a powerpoint but what i would really love is too have 2 programs open side by side on the one screen as this would be even easier to multitask but i will be finished uni before these will be met and then simply put my needs now/future are minimal in the 'business' area.. but this will NEVER replace a laptop for me im on it everyday for 6+ hours easy and the necessity for ease of access, large screen, etc for me negate the tablet switch for sometime if at all
for those who require specified proprietary programs your needs may never be met and if so they may only be met in the apple arena for sometime to come.. apple is the in thing at the moment and for the average joe as we all know cant understand alot of techno-babble (this may be a good argument for proprietary stuff to come out on the more tech android, but in business there are alot of people with their head in the sand)..
as for the OP i say this...
1. really consider rooting/flashing a custom rom you can always revert back to stock for warranty (i purchased mine overseas so i have NO warranty, im a poor uni student and saved for mine and honestly it was cheaper than my phone but yeh)
2. get an OTG cable (i got mine for $3 from hk) and use your flash drive for everything you want from the tablet/computer transfers (get a 32gb if you really need a large one).. that will remove alot of file transfer issues with bluetooth, etc and if you need to have constant backups then copy the file to the sdcard of the xoom to be super safe
3. have a better look in the area of printing.. i can wirelessly print from my android devices and they come out great (not good for photos) but documents come out pretty clear
4. burn the folio case, dance around it and move on try something else (if so inclined lol)...
5. the battery life is awesome.. absolutely awesome... i can go 2 full days without charge and using it all day on the train, music, wifi, internet.. bla bla
sorry for being long

[Q]Best tablet/laptop to develop ON?

My main, 4-5 year old macbook pro, seems to slowly be dying. HDD making weird noises, dead pixels on edges, power randomly turning off all the way, the works. I know some of this stuff is fixable, and I'll probably come around to it later, but right now I'm looking into getting a new computer, preferably a windows 8/ windows 8.1. While looking around for what my replacement would be, I know that some tablets, such as the surface pro, run windows 8. I think it would be cool to have a computer i could develop on and then go to class and turn it into a tablet and take notes on it. I don't know much about development, since I am a noob at it, and I'm going to collage in computer science next year, I don't know much about computer specifications for development. So, what would be a good choice for a tablet pc for developing? I do understand that a laptop or a full on PC would probably be better, but I'm just looking at options right now.

The main criteria for serious development (note: nothing you do in the first year or two of a CS curriculum is likely to qualify, unless you're going to MIT or something) are:
A) High-resolution display (1920 x 1080 is what I'd consider to be the bare minimum for a dev box) with a large enough screen that you can read it easily at default DPI. This is needed so you can have multiple code views, or code + documentation, open at once.
B) A pretty good supply of RAM. Depending on the languages and IDEs you're using, and the size of the code bases you're working on, just what is *enough* RAM will vary, but I wouldn't want to use anything less than around 8GB in a dev box. That lets me have multiple IDEs open, and a ton of browser tabs and history (for documentation), all at the same time without swapping.
C) SSD if you can afford it; the performance boost on stuff like compiling is substantial. You'll want to make sure you have plenty of space, though; source code even for large projects is only occasionally into and rarely much past single-digits of gigabytes, but the full repository history for a long-running project can be huge, and you will probably want to have room for virtual machines too (which are literally full additional OS installations) so you can test on different systems, or learn to develop for both Windows and Linux on the same machine, etc.
D) A really good keyboard is a must. You'll spend a long time using it, and you'll use a lot of weird keys that you aren't used to hitting right now. You want a full keyboard (no missing keys; did you know that there are actually times when Scroll Lock is useful? No joke...) with full-sized key-spacings (a cramped keyboard will slow you down and be uncomfortable really quickly). What type of "feel" you want to the keyboard is up to you, but most people really like the Lenovo keyboards for laptops, for example; your basic cheap membrane keyboard is probably *not* going to be pleasant to use.
Surface Pro 2 might work, if you got the Type Cover, but I wouldn't really recommend it. You want a bigger display on a dev box, usually, and the keyboard is optimized for everyday use but not for development.

Different people have different preferences for development machines. However I think GoodDayToDies suggestions are all good ones.
I am currently a first year computer science student at the university of northampton. I went with just getting a laptop rather than a tablet hybrid of some sort. Ultimately settled on the HP Sleekbook 14. Its only an intel core i3 @1.8ghz with HD4000 graphics and 6gb of RAM, but for everything you do in first and 2nd year (and potentially 3rd if there is a 3rd year not really sure how things work in the US) thats actually plenty powerful. It isn't a solid state drive, which would have been nice. There is only one criticism with it for programming and that is the screen resolution, at 14" the physical size is fine, but it is only 1366*768 which I can fit my stuff onto but it would be much nicer to have a higher res screen as with a higher res you can fit more code on without having to decrease font sizes or hide task bars in your IDE or whatever (I decrease font size and unpin the solution explorer and toolbox etc in visual studio, eclipse I dont unpin anything because I am still trying to get used to it, its only when you use something else that you realise how good visual studio is).
I did computer science as one of my A-Level subjects. I didn't bother with getting a laptop for that, I used the school machines in lesson, took bus home, used my desktop PC at home (and seeming as I commute to northampton daily from home instead of staying on halls, I can still do the same, but for convenience sake I use the laptop still, with my setup its more comfortable). I did have a friend though that didn't have a desktop PC at home or anything, his only computer was a 10" netbook, 1.3ghz dual core atom on 1gb of RAM and one of those really sucky 600p displays. He did his entire A-Level computing coursework on it, didn't use the school machines for anything other than testing and viewing documentation (as in that school we weren't allowed details for the WiFi which also had a hidden SSID, even if we did connect to the network via wifi or plain old ethernet, there was a proxy server nobody had details for either, so no internet for unauthorised machines). He was perfectly happy to bash out code on a tiny keyboard and only see a few lines of it at one time, I really wouldnt recommend it though. Visual studio was also perfectly happy to run on that machine (albeit with about a 10 minute load time when first opening it), compiled and debugged ASP.net applications perfectly fine too.
Under default settings in eclipse and with the console window thing pinned open at the bottom of the display. I can fit 28 lines of code on a 768 pixel tall screen.
Tablets for taking notes dont last long. Only people still doing that since the beginning of term are either using a surface with touch cover and typing yet still having a pad of paper for drawing diagrams or there are 2 people with surface pro's who use the digitiser stylus. Under lecture note taking conditions capacitive pens and virtual keyboards dont cut it. Also seen a small handful of people using bluetooth keyboards with iPads. One of the 2 surface pro guys does also use the surface in lab sessions for doing his work, the other switches to a uni machine. If your fine with a small keyboard then yeah, you might be able to do devwork on a surface pro, but there are @"keys"^Which>'R'|arely {if ever} get touched during daily usage; They are often placed on smaller buttons on smaller keyboards, much harder to hit. If your going to spend a few seconds trying to hit shift+2 to type a " (I'm british, our keyboards arent the same) then its going to slow you down considerably, my mate with the netbook didn't have a problem with this, I couldnt do it though. I have used the apple wireless keyboard and can type reasonably well on that (even though its about netbook size), but I cannot use it for programming, although in my case thats because apple are morons who don't know what a british keyboard looks like so the symbols are in the wrong place for me (their idea of a british layout keyboard, because they do sell one, is slap a £ sign on the 3 key and give us a double height enter/return key, that is it, all of their changes), that wouldnt effect you in the US.
I would say anything with a core i3/i5 or even i7 will have the CPU horsepower to get your work done.
For first year stuff I highly doubt more than 4gb of RAM will be needed. but I will recommend 6-8 anyway for future proofing.
Unless you are doing a specialised pathway with graphics or gaming, don't bother with an integrated GPU, you won't really need it.
1366*768 screen res should be the absolute bare minimum, 1080p highly recommended though. When this machine is replaced one day, I will definitely be going 1080p.
You need a keyboard which is comfortable to use. Go to best buy or whoever else sells computers out there, use a few machines, see what features you do or do not want.
I cannot recommend something 10" in size for most people. I use 14", I wouldnt go smaller than 13". For that reason I wouldn't recommend a convertible. If you were to go convertible, at least go active digitiser to make up for it. Some of my lectures I just type up, most I just go old fashioned with active digitiser mk1 (also known as pen and paper).
I am however looking at either the dell venue 8 pro or the EVGA tegra note tablets as a note taking tool. Can't really justify the expense though on something that would purely be that, a note taking tool.

4 GB of RAM should be enough unless you plan to use emulators. If you use emulators, you might wanna boost that up to 8.
A video card is also useful, regardless of how "weak" performance it has in gaming. If you use a CPU built-in one, you will lose up to 1 GB of RAM depending on what you do.
The display is probably the most important of them all. You will spend lots of time looking at it trying to figure out what is going wrong, and if your eyes do not agree with the display, you will find your efficiency greatly reduced.

Asus Vivotab Note 8 (M80TA) Official thread

There isn't already an official thread about this wonderful little tablet Asus Vivotab Note 8 , so here i start one
I can't be the only one who bought it, i hope xD
Sent from my M80TA using Tapatalk

i have the 32gb version.
I bought it for the wacom digitizer and office student, in particular onenote, that together are my idealistic perfect tool for my student activities.
Straight out of the box i had a problem with the Windows Store, i couldn't install any app because every time i clicked on the install button the download didn't started and the app was going to Pending state.
After an afternoon on official Microsoft forum that suggested ton of fixes , and none of them worked, i solved the problem following this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2vnhcoKCeQ
Sent from my M80TA using Tapatalk

I got the 64GB version. Can't say I've had any issues. Put a 64GB micro SD in, and redirected most the libraries, Skydrive to point at it. I've got my steam games split between internal and the SD card.
I picked up one of the I-Blason Case and screen protectors off amazon. The case works nice, the top cover can fold over doesn't get in the way much at all.
Haven't had any issues with the MS store on mine, was able to purchase and install the plex app no problem as well as a e-reader app and a couple others.
The only thing I've noticed with mine is that the stylus isn't terribly accurate around the edges. It makes trying to grab some of the slider bars in IE and other programs a challenge. I've seen some of the calibration guides here and have been debating trying one of them to see if it would improve that.
Edit: I also tried Bluestack for getting some android apps running, but it's been pretty abysmal performance with it with some apps not launching at all, and others I can launch, but then they just don't work correctly. My high hopes for using it with this table have pretty much been trashed

Can you post a screen snip of Disk Management (from Win+X menu)? I'd like to see the storage layout.
Also, please post the Windows experience index. It's hidden in 8.x. Run 'winsat prepop' from CMD. Wait to finish, then run 'get-wmiobject -class win32_winsat' in PowerShell. Actually, just post the scores of all the components. TIA.
Note 8 was out in UK/EU a month ago, so info & reviews are already on Youtube. It improves upon DVP8 w/ good stylus support, but is also more expensive, now that DVP8 has hit $200 bargain bin. OTOH, by virtue of being first (and heavily discounted), DVP8 has garnered a decent-sized userbase.
Asus Note 8 + DVP8 + Lenovo ThinkPad 8 & Miix 2 8 + Acer W4 + Toshiba Encore round out the Win tab 8" crop. Here's my Cliff Notes comparison: DVP8 = cheap, Note 8 = stylus, W4/Encore = HDMI out, TP8 = 1080p res.
For me, stylus support is critical, not for note-taking, but for running desktop. But I'm also looking for more ports, and these don't have them. Cherry Trail is on tap for Computex, and should roll out in fall, so Bay Trail will slot into the low-end in a few months. Win 8.1 won't change, but hopefully the hardware will have better capability at lower price points. At $300'ish, they can't compete against iPad Mini, hence the $250 goal w/ cheaper Win license and 16GB SKU.
As they are I think it's a good first effort. If MS can swallow its pride and allow good desktop use--eg w/ integrated pointer in bezel or stylus--I think Win tabs can do well. Because Metro for now isn't enough to win (excuse the pun), and chubby fingers don't work for desktop.
Since MS' Surface line is intended to be hero devices, a good question is whether MS will come out with a Surface Mini to spearhead the mini-tab effort--and if it does, whether it'll sport the comatose RT (in hopes of a Hail Mary miracle), or with an Atom, competing directly against its OEM partners.
VivoTab Note 8 digitizer demo
ThinkPad 8 vs DVP8 vs VivoTab Note 8
Acer W4 review
Toshiba Encore review

lordgodgeneral said:
I got the 64GB version. Can't say I've had any issues. Put a 64GB micro SD in, and redirected most the libraries, Skydrive to point at it. I've got my steam games split between internal and the SD card.
I picked up one of the I-Blason Case and screen protectors off amazon. The case works nice, the top cover can fold over doesn't get in the way much at all.
Haven't had any issues with the MS store on mine, was able to purchase and install the plex app no problem as well as a e-reader app and a couple others.
The only thing I've noticed with mine is that the stylus isn't terribly accurate around the edges. It makes trying to grab some of the slider bars in IE and other programs a challenge. I've seen some of the calibration guides here and have been debating trying one of them to see if it would improve that.
Edit: I also tried Bluestack for getting some android apps running, but it's been pretty abysmal performance with it with some apps not launching at all, and others I can launch, but then they just don't work correctly. My high hopes for using it with this table have pretty much been trashed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you tell me how to get skydrive to point to the SD card only? Also what libraries were you successfully able to direct to SD? I attempted to re-direct temp files and app data but that ended catastrophically with all things in metro including system restore settings disappeared, and would not even come back after returning things to normal. Had to do a full system recovery with a keyboard plugged in to force it to restore mode.

Verry Good Thanks

ThomasBags said:
Could you tell me how to get skydrive to point to the SD card only? Also what libraries were you successfully able to direct to SD? I attempted to re-direct temp files and app data but that ended catastrophically with all things in metro including system restore settings disappeared, and would not even come back after returning things to normal. Had to do a full system recovery with a keyboard plugged in to force it to restore mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Moving SkyDrive is pretty easy, just open explorer on the desktop right click and go to properties. There's a tab called location where you can set where its local files are stored.
The other thing I relocated were Documents, Music, Pictures, Videos, Downloads.
I haven't see too many people try to move the apps folder though, but symlinks would possibly be your best try, though I have no idea if that would work or not.
I've only had mine for a couple of weeks but I already enjoy it way more then any of the android tablets I have. The lack of apps is discouraging at times but I've always been able to find a desktop alternative and enjoy a better gaming experience playing my steam games.
I agree that all the current 8" tablets leave a little to be desired. To me it came down between this one and the TP8. The hdmi out and 1080 sounded nice, but I really didn't see myself using it very often, I have a htpc hooked up to the TV already as well as a laptop, and a the 1080 would work great over hdmi, but I figured it would actually hurt the desktop experience when using the 8" screen. The Wacom on the note 8 pretty much sealed it as this was mostly for on the go use.
The one item I would really wish for is a dedicated charging port and separate USB port so you can use USB and charge at the same time. I dont see that happening as I think Intel and the OEMs are purposefully neutering their designs specifically so they can't be used as a cheap desktop replacement via hdmi and a USB hub and possibly cut into the sales of their more expensive models.

>...a dedicated charging port and separate USB port...I think Intel and the OEMs are purposefully neutering their designs
A better explanation is that it was cheaper to go the single-port route, since getting to the $300 mark is the paramount consideration for Win tabs. Even so, they're still too expensive to be competitive, as evidenced by DVP8's drastic discounting. This won't change with $250 as the goal for upcoming gen. The next crop will be as barebone as the present one.
Vendors won't be motivated to invest much in their products, with no improvement in Win until next year. Low pricing will be key, and most vendors will be content to use Intel's reference design with little differentiation, as was for this gen. The good news is that we'll see $200 Win tabs by year end. If MS & vendors can get desktop to be functional (read: cheap stylus support), they'll have a compelling pitch against the sea of Androids.

Has anyone found a non magnetic case yet? Finally discovered the wonky stylus input was due to magnets, go figure. Waiting impatiently for poetic to do one of their productive cases for the tablet.

ThomasBags said:
Has anyone found a non magnetic case yet? Finally discovered the wonky stylus input was due to magnets, go figure. Waiting impatiently for poetic to do one of their productive cases for the tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even with a non magnetic case, there are the two magnets of the speakers, so near the asus logo and front camera there will always be some distortion I believe.

ThomasBags said:
Has anyone found a non magnetic case yet? Finally discovered the wonky stylus input was due to magnets, go figure. Waiting impatiently for poetic to do one of their productive cases for the tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got one of the i-Blason cases off amazon, it has magnet on the right side of the case, and one in the left most flap on the edge for folding over the cover (other i-Blason cases have up to 5 on them). I haven't really seen any issues using this case with the stylus. My experience has been that the accuracy drops some close to the edge of the screen, but this happens with and without the case, so I don't think i'm getting any distortion from the magnets on the case.
Let me know if your interested, I can get the exact model off amazon for you.

Hi Guys,
Maybe somebody can help. Got the Tablet a few days ago. Everything is Windows
Is it possible to hold Network and for example an audio stream when Tablet is in Standby (Energysave) whatever....screen off???
I can't find a way to do so....screen off....everything stops...hm. No further Options in Energyplan Menu....
Thanks in advance....

Open an elevated command prompt, and run 'powercfg /a' to see if Connected Standby is available as one of the sleep states (it should). Then, run 'powercfg /sleepstudy' to track battery drain. More info here,
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn495346(v=vs.85).aspx
If CS is available, then go into Device Manager | Network adapters, check Advanced tab to see if there's an option to keep connection alive during sleep (this should have been par for CS).
It could well be that drivers are still buggy, which would be kind of normal for these, being the first-run models. DVP8 had bunch of problems with CS.
Other powercfg options to check out,
powercfg /energy (report system energy use)
powercfg /batteryreport (history of battery usage)
Other cool things shown with /?.

Has anyone found a USB keyboard that works while booting? I'm specifically trying to go into safe mode so I can add hibernation to the power options, however when getting to the advanced boot section, none of my keyboards seem to recognize. They work fine in normal OS mode.
Think it may be a power issue or something similar?

Double tap to wake
I'm really liking this tablet. The screen size is just right and having full desktop experience when I need it is helpful.
The only thing that I'm missing is double tap to wake. I do not like the button placement for power/windows key and find it awkward and stiff to wake up...

keithhowe said:
I'm really liking this tablet. The screen size is just right and having full desktop experience when I need it is helpful.
The only thing that I'm missing is double tap to wake. I do not like the button placement for power/windows key and find it awkward and stiff to wake up...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Double tap to wake would be awesome... but i doubt we will see something like that on windows tablet

VivoTab note 8 virtualbox runing virtual machines
VivoTab note 8 virtualbox running virtual machines
so far its been really nice to run Linux even android on virtualbox has windows 8 touchscreen support and it makes it a little easier to use on windows 8 tablet and the full screen mode is cool if the Linux is lite it run really well makes it feel like is native install
Linux lite run like a baby
android also if config right many Linux distros run on this tab with virtualbox if config right just a tip

Stylus question
I just got my new AVTN8 yesterday and was hoping that the stylus would make it easier to use (I bought and returned the Toshiba Encore a few months ago) but I guess that I was spoiled by the Samsung S Pen.
Is there another compatible stylus out there that has some of that kind of functionality? I tend to take a lot of screenshots while researching various topics, so that would be my main usage.

Guys help please
Am confused between this and note 8.0
Im getting both for about the same price
Main thing im after's the stylus, samsung seems ahead here as i dont think the vivo has that many stylus based apps looking for input here my work s mostly writing , no fancy graphs or diagrams , just text
Again handling is a factor and it seems the vivos thinner and lighter
Im not familiar with the windows environment your input will be appreciated guys
I'm not after specs and notes and movies are all im gonna use it for
So guys help me out is it wise investing in the note or should i get the vivo? Hows the stylus front?

Doomrider said:
Am confused between this and note 8.0
Im getting both for about the same price
Main thing im after's the stylus, samsung seems ahead here as i dont think the vivo has that many stylus based apps looking for input here my work s mostly writing , no fancy graphs or diagrams , just text
Again handling is a factor and it seems the vivos thinner and lighter
Im not familiar with the windows environment your input will be appreciated guys
I'm not after specs and notes and movies are all im gonna use it for
So guys help me out is it wise investing in the note or should i get the vivo? Hows the stylus front?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beyond both being 8" tablets with a wacom digitiser (the fancy schmancy stylus, samsung call it an S-Pen but it is just rebranded wacom gear) the 2 are almost entirely different.
The samsung galaxy note uses a Samsung Enoxys processor with the ARM instruction set running android. The vivotab note 8 is using an intel atom baytrail processor which uses the x86 instruction set and runs *full* windows 8.
Most phones and tablets do use ARM processors. Nothing unusual on that front for the galaxy note.
x86 processors are what you would tend to find in your laptop or desktop computer. The vivotab note is more or less a low end laptop ripped apart and put inside a tablet casing. It is just a normal windows 8 computer which just happens to have an 8" touchscreen on the front.
I'd say of the 2, the vivotab is the more powerful device, but windows doesnt quite have the full touch ecosystem available yet. It will do everything you want though, onenote is meant to be excellent with a stylus and for media playback you can get VLC on the windows store as a full touchscreen app or simply use iTunes or the full blown version of VLC or whatever other media software you have preferred on windows on the desktop interface. It also comes with microsoft office preinstalled for free, not just a trial version.
pros for the samsung would be that android from day 1 has always been touch based so all the apps in the ecosystem are of course touch based usually. S-Pen integration is good. Handwriting accuracy wont be very different from the vivotab particularly but you do get samsungs very good S-Note application.
Alot of computing stores have surface pro demo models on display, this also has the wacom pen so usage wise the vivotab and surface pro will be very similar except for the pro having a more powerful processor (for your needs, baytrail is fine) and bigger screen, see how you like windows 8 on a touch screen and go from there. You may have to ask staff for access to the pen, or if you own a samsung S-Pen device already the pen from that *should* work.

Pixel C vs The World

I am in a state of utter indecision and hope this post can generate some food for thought.
I am in possession of my second Galaxy Note tablet--the 2014--and am very unhappy with multi'window and bezel buttons. Before I bought the 2014 I tried jumping off the Android ecosystem to Apple and was less than happy with it, so the 2014 was a bit of a knee jerk, thinking that I could work around the button problem--I can't. But even worse is how they made multi-window into a horrible "feature".
All that is to say that I'm not platform dependent, and that I am so done with Samsung--no matter how much I like the stylus. The stylus was a useful feature but felt awkward to hold so while I think all tablets should have a stylus, I know that it is easier to say than to do in a logical fashion.
Over the past couple years I've encountered a couple Surface users who use theirs in concert with work and speak very highly of their capability. I think one of those would be better than a laptop when I travel. But having tried an early model I don't think they hold-up all that well as tablets. Certainly they do the job okay but don't feel right to me. I don't think like some that the Pixel C is aimed at competing with the surface--perhaps more an attempt at moving the platform more in that direction. It doesn't at all compare well with the surface IMHO.
Another thing that I read is people complaining about keyboards on tablets. I've always wanted one to make answering emails easier. That on screen keyboard is still not as good as a keyboard to me--call it an old folk interface device (OFID) if you must. That said, I've never had one because Bluetooth keyboards always seemed so finicky and the extra charging cable seemed a bridge too far for me. So the Pixel C keyboard's charging method seems inventive and spot on, but I'm not sure I like the Bluetooth nor do I understand why (comparing the surface keyboard with it) some keys had to be dropped off and a trackpad wasn't possible--though those seem a smallish issue.
So I'm having trouble deciding whether to get away from Android tablets and move toward a Surface or go with a Pixel C or something else. I do little more than reading on my 2014--well that and sending all my pictures to it over Eyefi, and web browsing. So I see little real reason to spend Surface Pro 4 money, but the extra functionality would be useful. I've worked more with Google Drive and spreadsheets and docs and am happy to think I can do some office work that way if need be but sometimes you need absolute compatibility without fail so I'm going to be a bit skiddish there.
So I know that's a bit of a ramble, but it seems all that's been rolling around in my head I really want to like this tablet but I'd want more than 64GB of storage because of those pictures, I really would like it to be removable memory, and as weird as it seems this lovely tablet got me looking closer at the Surface and thinking a PRO 3 might be a better bet. Don't come at me swinging, just give me some food for thought.

I strongly agree to stay away from Samsung, so you're already in a good spot after that decision.
Regarding storage space, I'm with you on wanting more space/expandability, but the general trend is to store eveyrthing online these days. At least if you have 64 gb for base that should be reasonable for most core use. (Android and its apps eat up considerably less space than Windows does, so it's not a straight space comparison. But ceretainly there is still a space comparison.)
In either case, bluetooth keyboard will hopefully prove comfortable for you as connection should be strong and seamless.
It really comes down to what you want to do with your new device. Pixel C will give you more portability, more apps, everything your Samsung could do but do it much better, faster, and cooler. Surface will give you PC-ability, Microsoft Office and similar full-PC apps, stylus-digitizer, expansion and desktop-friendly.
Also, Surface is available now and Pixel C is available ?? "by 2015 holidays" ???

ferrydust said:
I strongly agree to stay away from Samsung, so you're already in a good spot after that decision.
Regarding storage space, I'm with you on wanting more space/expandability, but the general trend is to store eveyrthing online these days. At least if you have 64 gb for base that should be reasonable for most core use. (Android and its apps eat up considerably less space than Windows does, so it's not a straight space comparison. But ceretainly there is still a space comparison.)
In either case, bluetooth keyboard will hopefully prove comfortable for you as connection should be strong and seamless.
It really comes down to what you want to do with your new device. Pixel C will give you more portability, more apps, everything your Samsung could do but do it much better, faster, and cooler. Surface will give you PC-ability, Microsoft Office and similar full-PC apps, stylus-digitizer, expansion and desktop-friendly.
Also, Surface is available now and Pixel C is available ?? "by 2015 holidays" ???
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Certainly Windows is part of the reason I shy away from surface, but it is a necessary evil sometimes. I could have a Surface 3 pro right now if I was all that enamored with it, that I don't is due in part to the fact that I don't have to make the decision now. I've been with Android a long time and don't have major complaints, but battery life and security are issues I care about. Both seem to be getting some attention so I've no real burning reason to move away just yet.
So if I can reliably distill the above ramble into a shorter statement it might be that I feel the tug of Surface because I travel a bit for work, and I want a new tablet. I'm just not totally sold on the Pixel C Because of doubts and dissatisfaction with the keyboard and lack of external memory.
That may seem weak sauce to those of you who've been in the Nexus realm for a bit and I'd certainly put lots of faith in your expectations vs experience thoughts, and that's part of why I'm here. Nexus seems like the only realistic Android choice for me as updates and security go hand-in-hand. The Pixel C being an outgrowth of Nexus would presumably follow in the same foot steps. I also like what I'm seeing from an industrial design standpoint.--a Nexus 6p will be in my hands in a couple weeks. As I've stated, memory is an issue more because it doesn't seem enough to hold the pictures from the EyeFi card. I'll have to see how much space I'm currently using to justify that thought though.

wclark57 said:
Certainly Windows is part of the reason I shy away from surface, but it is a necessary evil sometimes.
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FWIW, I'm pleasantly comfortable with Windows 10 on my laptop. I did not love windows 8 and had several measures in place to wrangle it into behaving like 7 for me. I've left windows 7 as is on my Workstation, but both my machines have very similar setups and I use Synergy between them and have been pleased with everything running swimmingly. Having a good touch screen makes a good bit of difference. The Windows store apps, though, are pretty bleh to me. That's not been an issue for me on Win 10; I use the regular desktop apps I've always used on regular windows, rather than the "touch-screen friendly" and "metro-style" apps.
I've been with Android a long time and don't have major complaints, but battery life and security are issues I care about. Both seem to be getting some attention so I've no real burning reason to move away just yet.
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Agreed. Battery life should be comparable if not better from Android, particularly in this case.
So if I can reliably distill the above ramble into a shorter statement it might be that I feel the tug of Surface because I travel a bit for work, and I want a new tablet. I'm just not totally sold on the Pixel C Because of doubts and dissatisfaction with the keyboard and lack of external memory.
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If you use MS Office for work or similar desktop-dependent software, and don't want to lug around two machines (laptop for work plus tablet) then Surface is definitely your way to go. Otherwise, there's decent-to-great productivity applications on Android now (if you need MS Office or full Adobe Illustrator or similar, then nothing short of PC will cut it) and you may find the Pixel more portable, hardware and software-wise.[/quote]
Nexus seems like the only realistic Android choice for me as updates and security go hand-in-hand.
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Yes, other options are slim anyway, especially having ruled out Samsung. The other ones I'd look at in your case are Sony's Xperia tablet line or one of Lenovo's various tablets and tablet-laptop hybrids.
memory is an issue more because it doesn't seem enough to hold the pictures from the EyeFi card.
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Yes, I really wish they'd offer more memory across the board. You may find yourself happy and comfortable though with a combination built-in-memory+cloud-drive solution.
Since you're not in a rush, keep exploring the options and asking the questions. until you're comfortable or decidedly smitten with one machine.

ferrydust said:
FWIW, I'm pleasantly comfortable with Windows 10 on my laptop. I did not love windows 8 and had several measures in place to wrangle it into behaving like 7 for me. I've left windows 7 as is on my Workstation, but both my machines have very similar setups and I use Synergy between them and have been pleased with everything running swimmingly. Having a good touch screen makes a good bit of difference. The Windows store apps, though, are pretty bleh to me. That's not been an issue for me on Win 10; I use the regular desktop apps I've always used on regular windows, rather than the "touch-screen friendly" and "metro-style" apps. .
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While the ramble I've written above stands true, enough cannot be made of the security faults with non Nexus devices. My 2014 has not been updated since I got it and it has a bunch of bloatware I cannot remove and have not accepted the permissions for. Not to mention that the reason I tried Apple was largely what this version of Android attempts to fix. So this is the only Android tablet I am considering.
I've also recently bought a fine laptop and its running Linux--which is what I run at home. So while I can configure some synergy in, it isn't a given that the synergy will be all that. And yes I'm sure I could put Linux on the Surface, but that would take me away from my main use case for it.
It comes down to what I most value and I think the process of writing this all out has all but made my decision for me, but still, I would prefer a positive argument for this tablet and frankly I'm not sure I have one. That leads me to the thought that I have an actual use case for a Surface, but not an Android--well there is the photography, but I can setup the surface, or even the laptop (its just not as easy to lug around) to handle that.
The practical side of me says Surface, but every other fiber of my being says Pixel C. I'm trying to convince the practical me that its full of it.

wclark57 said:
it has a bunch of bloatware I cannot remove and have not accepted the permissions for.
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Cannot remove but you can disable them yes? Should be able to disable just about any app you like as long as it's not System... I'm not 100% sure if that's true for Samsung devices though (we've already covered that general topic...).
So this is the only Android tablet I am considering.
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Yes you and me both; I've ruled out the others this round. Most of them just don't come close to spec requirements.
I've also recently bought a fine laptop and its running Linux--which is what I run at home.
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Okay if you have this, then you may not need another laptop[hybrid] in the Surface, neh?
memory is an issue
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It does have that type-C usb port that can take external storage in a small lightweight form if you want to expand memory that way. I know that's not the same as built-in. They all (incl. Microsoft) really want us to be using their respective Cloud storage options, even though they don't yet provide us wth global free high-speed wifi to really take advantage of such.
a positive argument for this tablet and frankly I'm not sure I have one.
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It's purportedly attractive and pleasing to hold, cool keyboard charging and mechanisms, good specs (besides relatively limited storage space), very portable and nice size for frequent use, wide range of Android apps, reliable hardware and software, latest and greatest software and updates.
The practical side of me says Surface, but every other fiber of my being says Pixel C.
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This is a strong argument for the Pixel C. If you're not reasonably/unreasonably smitten with your device then what's really the point?
I think the strongest argument for the Surface above the Pixel C is not as much the storage space (even though that is a huge sticking point with me in general -- storage and ram. I'm annoyed at the general offerings by the technology world in this regard), but the Surface Pro capabilities as a digitizer. If you'll use a pen to screen, then the only choice is the Surface (but then the SP4 is much improved in that regard over the SP3...) Otherwise, for a high-powered Android device you can play and work and browse and do Android things with, Pixel is the choice for you.
If you can wait yet, wait for a bit more news on the Pixel C and some proper hands-on reviews to see if you're still intrigued. If they don't give me news soon, they're making the decision for me. (Grrrrrrr.)

ferrydust said:
Okay if you have this, then you may not need another laptop[hybrid] in the Surface, neh?
It does have that type-C usb port that can take external storage in a small lightweight form if you want to expand memory that way. I know that's not the same as built-in. They all (incl. Microsoft) really want us to be using their respective Cloud storage options, even though they don't yet provide us wth global free high-speed wifi to really take advantage of such.
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Yes, the use case does not apply at home, only during travel, and it deserves to be said that the case is served by a normal laptop currently--only the convenience of a smaller, lighter system is implied.
I just don't think moving images from my SLR to the cloud is all that good an idea. It already takes long enough to establish comm with the EyeFi card, adding several seconds to each image transfer to the cloud when you just took 20-30 shots seems excessive.
ferrydust said:
This is a strong argument for the Pixel C. If you're not reasonably/unreasonably smitten with your device then what's really the point?
I think the strongest argument for the Surface above the Pixel C is not as much the storage space (even though that is a huge sticking point with me in general -- storage and ram. I'm annoyed at the general offerings by the technology world in this regard), but the Surface Pro capabilities as a digitizer. If you'll use a pen to screen, then the only choice is the Surface (but then the SP4 is much improved in that regard over the SP3...) Otherwise, for a high-powered Android device you can play and work and browse and do Android things with, Pixel is the choice for you.
If you can wait yet, wait for a bit more news on the Pixel C and some proper hands-on reviews to see if you're still intrigued. If they don't give me news soon, they're making the decision for me. (Grrrrrrr.)
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So follow my heart? That's not my normal approach with hardware. Still, the very fact that I'm engaged here and checking several times a day does tell you that my heart is not to be trifled with. FYI, I read yesterday that Marshmallow is optimized for active stylus. But the whole of the application space for its use has always been less than inspiring, and keeping track of a stylus seems a bit of a chore. I will probably try one out though. As I alluded to earlier, the Note stylus barely got used and that was largely because it was a pain to use--largely a function of its size and the button placement. Its size was mainly driven by its storage method--which was a sensible feature. The surface stylus seems clumsy when it comes to keeping track of it. So IMHO there are limitations with how easy a stylus is to live with. It isn't on my list of must haves.
I'm with you on the lack of solid information. And I am so tired of the endless attempts to make this out as a competitor to the Surface with all the comparisons--just doesn't sound realistic to me.

wclark57 said:
Yes, the use case does not apply at home, only during travel, and it deserves to be said that the case is served by a normal laptop currently--only the convenience of a smaller, lighter system is implied.
I just don't think moving images from my SLR to the cloud is all that good an idea. It already takes long enough to establish comm with the EyeFi card, adding several seconds to each image transfer to the cloud when you just took 20-30 shots seems excessive.
So follow my heart? That's not my normal approach with hardware. Still, the very fact that I'm engaged here and checking several times a day does tell you that my heart is not to be trifled with. FYI, I read yesterday that Marshmallow is optimized for active stylus. But the whole of the application space for its use has always been less than inspiring, and keeping track of a stylus seems a bit of a chore. I will probably try one out though. As I alluded to earlier, the Note stylus barely got used and that was largely because it was a pain to use--largely a function of its size and the button placement. Its size was mainly driven by its storage method--which was a sensible feature. The surface stylus seems clumsy when it comes to keeping track of it. So IMHO there are limitations with how easy a stylus is to live with. It isn't on my list of must haves.
I'm with you on the lack of solid information. And I am so tired of the endless attempts to make this out as a competitor to the Surface with all the comparisons--just doesn't sound realistic to me.
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Also,
If they ultimately release a 128 GB version then I will stop complaining about memory--though I would still prefer it to be removable. Beyond the very real need to have space for pictures, is the convenience of traveling with something that would be able to replace my work laptop. I hope to convince the company to pop for a Surface so I think I'm just going to stop thinking about that. Still, if anyone uses an Android for work--using Office or Google Drive and its office suite--then workflow discussions would help.

wclark57 said:
Also,
If they ultimately release a 128 GB version then I will stop complaining about memory--though I would still prefer it to be removable. Beyond the very real need to have space for pictures, is the convenience of traveling with something that would be able to replace my work laptop. I hope to convince the company to pop for a Surface so I think I'm just going to stop thinking about that. Still, if anyone uses an Android for work--using Office or Google Drive and its office suite--then workflow discussions would help.
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I use a Note Pro 12.2 and I find both multiwindow and pen window to be absolutely brilliant. I am not sure I could use another android device without the pen window. I do use it for some work stuff when I am at home or away from my desk. For the most part I use Hancom Office apps for a couple of reason; first, it seems completely compatible with almost all other office suites, and second, because I use the s-mouse with my Note pro and in Hancom the s mouse has right click capability. As far as I know hancom is the only android office suite that has right click compatability built in and it means I can actually edit the data sets in excell fully on my Note Tablet. If the Pixel C does get a version of android with multiwindow support I would definately consider it. Otherwise the SP3/SP4 are the best option.

They certainly could have fixed it for the 12.2. Multi-window on the older note was great, but on the 2014 it just sucks. I click on a youtube link and half the screen is the browser window and half is the youtube window and I can only make either of them about two thirds the screen size by dragging the dividing line one way or the other. No movable windows, just a split screen, and no discernible way to make one take full screen. I don't tend to use the word, but I hate the thing.

Considering this is a Google tablet running pure Marshmallow, being able to unlock and root it to customize it, like putting Linux on it, or maybe even dual booting it for both Android or Linux or even Windows, it's pretty much a no brainer for me to get this. The 64 gb is the perfect amount of storage for me as well.

I've beat-up on the Galaxy Note 2014 enough to feel compelled to report that it just updated to Marshmallow.

wclark57 said:
I've beat-up on the Galaxy Note 2014 enough to feel compelled to report that it just updated to Marshmallow.
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Wat. I just got mine on Lollipop 5.1.1
How are you on Marshmallow?!?
I will say the 5.1.1 update was a positive but I am still gunning for the Pixel C.
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kibmikey1 said:
Considering this is a Google tablet running pure Marshmallow, being able to unlock and root it to customize it, like putting Linux on it, or maybe even dual booting it for both Android or Linux or even Windows, it's pretty much a no brainer for me to get this. The 64 gb is the perfect amount of storage for me as well.
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I dont think Windows will work on an ARM processor. I could be wrong though. I have heard of a decent amount of people wanting to dual boot into Linux though.
What I would really love is a dual boot of android/chromeOS.

atg284 said:
Wat. I just got mine on Lollipop 5.1.1
How are you on Marshmallow?!?
I will say the 5.1.1 update was a positive but I am still gunning for the Pixel C.
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I dont think Windows will work on an ARM processor. I could be wrong though. I have heard of a decent amount of people wanting to dual boot into Linux though.
What I would really love is a dual boot of android/chromeOS.
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Yes, I should have checked my version numbers.