Related
EDIT, 12/12/10:
It looks like there is a ton of desire here and drive to get some major work accomplished. I just spoke with ferman via PM regarding the future of this project. I wanted to throw the idea out there, and I want to be a part of it, but I am (obviously) in no way equipped to lead such an effort. As I told him, I am much more the monkey-behind-the-keyboard writing code than the project manager at this point, and would happily contribute to any group that desires to further the Captivate's development.
So, without further ado, I hand the reins over to ferman and anyone else that congeals together as communal guidance. I'll be happy just to contribute code.
I thank everyone for their patience while I haven't been here to answer anyone's questions or even acknowledge everyone's involvement. Once I am done with release season at work, I only hope there's still room on the team for another monkey behind a keyboard!
I struggled with whether to post this in "General" or "Development" - I settled on "Development" as it is regarding, well...development.
If enough people are interested, I'd like to start the group development of a ROM, tentatively named "QAM". Cornerstones of QAM? No donations accepted, except for git submissions ("Free and In the Clear" - get it?); group development with specialization based on the team members' skill sets; widely accesible code with an emphasis on sound open source development practices; and clearly documented, well tested changes and updates.
With all of the drama here recently, especially regarding Axura, I think it's time that some of us try to steer this place back to what it used to be.
I'm an enterprise dev in my nine to five. As many have voiced, I have no doubts about my ability to develop a nice ROM for my own personal use. But I value my time, recognize that I am not as efficient in some areas (UI and UX, for instance), and understand from my professional life how much better of a result can be achieved when you've got a diversified team developing together.
Anyone that is a fan of Agile Development Practices will know where I am coming from. If anyone is interested in working together, let's start a dialogue here and now. If you're merely interested in flaming and thread crapping, move along - this isn't the thread you're looking for.
[EDIT - 12/06/10, 8:51PM] Posted an update within the thread. I didn't anticipate this much interest, but I'm glad it's there. I'm going to go through the thread tonight and start assembling names, etc.
i'm interested, but i dont really have any skills in relation to creating a rom or anything of the like. but if can help let me know!
Intresting...
hansmrtn said:
Intresting...
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very.
i will gladly help where i can. i think this is a great concept and definitely brings us back to the roots of OpenSource Development.
lets please get this going. what do you need?
Nice
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
hansmrtn said:
Intresting...
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I would like to offer my services. I loved supporting the Axura users and would love to support yours. I have a little programming experience, I mainly deal with ISS day in and day out though. Let me know what you think. I really think this could turn into something great!
vbhines said:
I struggled with whether to post this in "General" or "Development" - I settled on "Development" as it is regarding, well...development.
If enough people are interested, I'd like to start the group development of a ROM, tentatively named "QAM". Cornerstones of QAM? No donations accepted, except for git submissions ("Free and In the Clear" - get it?); group development with specialization based on the team members' skill sets; widely accesible code with an emphasis on sound open source development practices; and clearly documented, well tested changes and updates.
With all of the drama here recently, especially regarding Axura, I think it's time that some of us try to steer this place back to what it used to be.
I'm an enterprise dev in my nine to five. As many have voiced, I have no doubts about my ability to develop a nice ROM for my own personal use. But I value my time, recognize that I am not as efficient in some areas (UI and UX, for instance), and understand from my professional life how much better of a result can be achieved when you've got a diversified team developing together.
Anyone that is a fan of Agile Development Practices will know where I am coming from. If anyone is interested in working together, let's start a dialogue here and now. If you're merely interested in flaming and thread crapping, move along - this isn't the thread you're looking for.
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Click to collapse
Sounds great. Even though I font know much about development myself, I would love yo help somehow(maybe I could be one of those highly cautious/thorough testers you were talking about).
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
Sounds interesting. I'm interested in at least testing for you guys. I'd love to start coding for Android (BSc in Computer Science, but enjoy coding every once in a blue moon), but never got around to learning. I'll def keep my eye on this thread though, and help where I can
@OP:
Think this is an amazing idea! Definitely can see a lot come from this.
Idea though: you should maybe put up some slots to be filled so we can get some development teams, focused on their own individual part of the rom, together, so we know for sure that this will be great.
The most I can help with is being the app-writer-assistant XD.
I have yet to see a rom with its own app(s)(not counting DG's lbs launch) and I would love to see one with its own music player,notes,messaging, etc. I'm not experienced at all, i just know some java and I'm still learning android developtment(i got 3 big books next to me right now).
In fact I wouldn't be offended at all if you just say "no, thank you". I just really like the idea and I thought that if i proposed this it would at least give some initiative to develop custom apps with the custom roms and make this project that much more...unique
i'd like to see and participate in some REAL developement. A lot of these "devs" (especially the ones complaining) arent doing much developement and instead are just piecing together different things REAL devs have created into these roms and then trying to extort "donations" out of people. There's a select few developers frontlining the kernel developement that are doing real, good work.
imagine if we had multiple people creating roms like cyanogenmod on here...
I would be interested. I have done some android programming as well as some Other stuff. Never did any rom development but would like to give it a shot
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I can do 'modem testing'.. I travel for a living and encounter the various Freq's, EDGE, 3G, and believe it or not the pre EDGE network (cant think of the name at the moment, long day) almost every day.
Hey I wouldn't be much help in terms of development but I am willing to test anything you guys build
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
whitesox311 said:
i'd like to see and participate in some REAL developement. A lot of these "devs" (especially the ones complaining) arent doing much developement and instead are just piecing together different things REAL devs have created into these roms and then trying to extort "donations" out of people. There's a select few developers frontlining the kernel developement that are doing real, good work.
imagine if we had multiple people creating roms like cyanogenmod on here...
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Click to collapse
This is exactly the sort of thing this thread and concept will help avoid. The Rom builders that are causing drama do alot of work. And we all benefit. Even if they are getting more traffic and donations than the ones doing the kernel and other mods and making them available for the Rom and kernel builders.
I don't mind seeing a little competition in the thread titles. And each dev has an opinion as to what's best and thus we have several different roms. But the bickering I've seen is ridiculous. But understandable. There are no rules in place. No required donation. No licensing on much of what's up. Its a bit of a mess.
Id love to see what a captivate oriented community effort will produce. Team whisky is great but not all that works on the vibrant works on the captivate.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897
is this like the android syndicate in epic4G threads lol?
I'm in, PM me
i'm willing to flash as many iterations of this as you may develop. no technical expertise on my end though ...
I can test and am willing to learn any thing that will help with developing. I have strong computer background. Just new to android.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
im in for testing
The thought popped up in my head this morning. I remembered Eugene, the developer of the Macnut ROM, who no longer supported XDA. Then another dev, jellette, that quit for reasons I can't quite understand. Who's to blame for these developers quitting the scene, or only providing ROMs on other sites?
I'm a 16 year old high school student in San Francisco. I've been lurking the forums ever since I got my Vibrant and my friend directed me here. I'm not at all new to hacks like these, I've been participating in communities and actions like these since I was 12. I never found a reason to become closely connected within this community, though. It's not a small group, it's a much larger one, and I don't have any place to fit in. This is one of my first posts, and it's one that I feel I need to share with the community: my thoughts and beliefs on the whole situation about devs that no longer support XDA or flat out quit.
Let's cover some ground first:
These devs are not paid. They make these ROMs, custom kernels, and other mods in their spare time. The only money they make off these ROMs comes from donations, and some devs don't ask for donations anyway.
The users are not paying for this work. The users don't need to give feedback, however they are permitted and allowed to comment, criticize, or help the developers in any way.
The trade made here is obviously unfair: give nothing, get something. In many cases, get a great piece of work for your phone that will make it blazing fast and give it features and functionality unheard of to other users of the same phone. The devs are ok with this though, as they freely release their work without a price tag.
However, there are some things devs are not ok with. I can't speak for each and every single developer, but having once done development in my own time as well, I can say the one thing that really aggravates all developers, and all people even, is when your work goes unnoticed, or worse yet, gets disrespected. When some bombarding, ignorant user comes along and rips apart your hard work, what are you to do? "This ROM is utterly horrible, you should've put more work into it before releasing this paperweight." Maybe a bit over the top, but it gets the point across, and it's from this that a developer will most likely quit XDA as he sees fit.
So what can we say about the users, the freeloaders? Some decency is expected of all of us, basically. That's the lesson every user should know: respect those that give you what you get. They're not robots that work endlessly with nothing better to do. These are people, hard working men and women who spend hours on end making software for you. Give them your respect. Constructive criticism is nice, but never go so far as to demote them as a person. If you want their respect, you must give them respect. Make them feel welcome and they will continue to work for the entire community. It's simple, human nature.
As for developers, are they in the right place to quit under these grounds? There is no set ground for quitting. Each person sees fit at what time he or she should quit working, in any case: as a dev, as an employee, as anyone. People need to know their limits, and they do know their limits. As a free working developer, they have a lot more liberty in deciding when they want to stop working for the community. Even someone who didn't feel accused or demoted could leave for no reason and it wouldn't affect them as much as if they had left their full-time paying job. This is not a source of revenue, it's not a source of anything, in fact.
One thing devs should know, and this is coming straight from me, is that as someone who releases work on the forums, your name will be known, and it's wise that you build a public image for yourself. Quitting without reason, without a post to describe your feelings, to express concerns or thoughts on the community or whatever else you'd like to mention, does not help build a good public image. You are at liberty to do as you please, that's your free choice, but people will judge you based on your actions. Throwing yourself into a position as such, as a chef, comes with more than just giving out work. It comes with the comments users will give you. It's good to be able to politically conduct yourself, to create a good public image, which will ultimately help you avoid the negative comments the public makes.
In conclusion:
Users: Be respectful, have some common decency. This is for all of us, not just those who don't get it. It's a rule we should all know. Developers are humans, just like us. Respect them as such.
Developers/chefs: You are free to do what you like. Quit as you please, continue as you please, no one will stop you. It is, however, important to make a good public image. Not necessary, but important. Conduct yourself in a political manner, because us users see you as a strong force, not just as a person. Be ready to make a good public image.
I want to know your thoughts on this. I feel it's important that this ground is covered, and that we come to a general consensus on this. The more you know, the better off you are. The more we all know, the better off we will all be.
if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.
xriderx66 said:
if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.
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I second that...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.
I agree with you 100% in partucular regarding the users.
I came to this forum looking for support, trying to get the GPS working on my Vibrant.
Before I posted or did anything I read many threads and researched what it meant to use Odin and to root the phone and flash a rom and to recover from a problem before I even started anything. When I did I was fully aware that I and I alone, was responsible for anything that happened to my phone. I am continually amazed at how some people jump in, without a clue as to what they are doing, then seem to try to blame the developers for their problems. Then you have the group who complain about colors or a boot animation or a "missing" app on a rom they got for free. Simply amazing the entitlement people have over something that someone puts out there for them to try to improve their phone for free.
I can understand how the devs could get fed up with these sorts of actions. It can take a pretty thick skin to deal with all the stuff I see going on here.
It is like a preschool in here...just get used to it.
Life will go on, and someone will always be making roms--herds are pathetic, individuals are lost inside said herds. Keep your ears open and your mouth shut.
My $0.02
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
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I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...
I have plenty of respect for the few guys who make a few useful programs, and I don't think I've ever bashed a dev's work openly. But:
ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
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Click to collapse
/Twerd.
Gotta give respect to receive, and some devs just think they are God's gift to Captain Taco. It's the Internet - no one gets respect on the 'tubes. Who gives a ****. The growing up really neds to happen on the part of most of these "I'm pouty b/c someone said something crass about some weekend work I did" "developers."
Drewstein said:
I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...
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McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
-bZj
Agree ...........great post clear concise and to the point. Funny, that a 16 year old can articulate the basics of good behavior that most in here do not practice. I do not blame a lot of the devs leaving, people rag on their work give nothing but complaints..... as if they have the skill (yeah right).People will eagerly wait 10 min in a Starbucks line, pay 5.00 for a coffee and never donate to the dev, XDA or anything........then complain when the custom rom they got for free doesn't work the WAY they like or want......... talk about selfish irony...........
Great post !! kevipapo1 (from a guy old enough to be your grandpa )
i agree with it. people need to remember that without dev. we would all be running stock
If master leaves I'll suicide.
I hope ur reading this, master
Unfortunately this is the interwebz and this is has its been in any android forum I've ventured through. As you are young, but yet seem to be fairly wise, I say to you "welcome to the world my friend!"
Very good post.
Most criticism is from lack of knowledge/education. People don't understand how difficult it is to develop a ROM. So they criticise what they don't understand because it inconveniences them.
However, I will disagree somewhat with developer criticism. Although, I don't agree with the way Master handled the situation, I can relate.
I believe it is very important for us to realize that ROM developers are not public figures. They have the freedom to stop and start as they please. Their passion is development, after all, not public relations.
Kudos OP. Excellent post!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I just want to say thanks to all Developers here at XDA. Without you and your ROMS or tweaks i wouldn't have the great phone i have today that i spent my hard earned money on, and to the immature people if something doesn't work right on a ROM insted of being an ASS!!! and saying how crappy it is say whats wrong and they will fix it they have for me.
Again thanks to all who have helped you don't even know me but you all are ready to help at anytime day or night.
GARY
I personally am 15 and have been in xda since 13
I appreciate the devs for all their work if it wasn't for them i would have killed myself with many frustrations of a stock vibrant
I hate that some are immature and that some get really irritating i understand that some are new but some just get on nerves.
I wish eugene came back because he was.one of the first devs here
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
This is a great post & I echo the op's sentiments. This forum and the devs that contribute to it are a phenomenal resource to all of us and deserve to be treated with respect as we all do. The real shame is that a 16 yr old realizes this more than most of us adults (some of which are in name only). I've been in these forums for only a short time and the amount of immaturity, cynacism and deconstructive criticism I have seen is truly apalling and frankly I'm suprised more haven't bailed. I guess the Golden Rule isn't important when you've got the anonymity of the internet.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
Lethal_NFS said:
I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.
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Just because someone is childish does NOT mean that they are a child.
I've seen many adults that throw a tantrum worse than a 5 year old and many 5 year olds who act like they're going on 30.
Likely their age has nothing to do with it & its just a reflection of their random genetics and/or crappy parenting.
down8 said:
McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
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Click to collapse
If its an issue, then xda should make a max image/sig size (like you mentioned other sites do). That simple.
Most of his signature tells you to search & read the XDA rules before posting, not really bad advice & since he has to answer questions from many people who don't do either, I can't really blame him.
It would be a LOT more aesthetically pleasing if it were text only, but since XDA allows it, I don't really have a problem with it.
Most of the devs have developed a bit of an attitude (I've seen it from Eugene, SomBionix, Master, and a few others) because of the crap they have to deal with & XDA not enforcing their own rules (this is supposed to have changed after the town hall meeting).
i have been on xda since 2005, left came back etc etc, i do minor edits and coding here and there for myself because i dont have the time like these other people. but honestly most people need to get over themselves. this is a strong community and will live on without you. that said this community has made some people millionaires and others just brats who want the limelight. the idea behind this site is to take the software into our own hands. its us vs. corporations. if devs want to leave cool stfu about it and go but keep in mind that unless you have a contributed to the community dont complain about someones work. devs know what come when you start producing products. its the same that companys deal with. most leave because they get their feelings hurt. its not like people are stalking you and breaking your kneecaps because angry birds wouldnt play during their lunchbreak. ignore the negative and stay or wine and leave. but this place or any place wont change. the more successful you get the harder your skin must be
About me and why it all got under my skin.
James / jellette / Heathen
39 year old, married, father of 3
<Edited out line, too personal>
I look around and see Darky, Doc, Jim, Eugene, TW and everyone else doing Gingerbread clones - and they aren't called "Copy Cat" - but when I do it I am. That makes a guy pretty darn mad.
I set out to do the latest Rom 100% from scratch without drawing from the work of any existing Rom specifically because of my relationship with TW. The takers out there have no idea how much work goes into doing that.
Here was and continues to be the process with PepperKake.
1. Download the JL5 Rom from samfirmware.com
2. Odin to get a feel for the new firmware.
3. Rip the files from factoryfs.rfs
4. Release the first flashable Odexed recovery safe JL5 by 30 minutes
5. Deodex the apps and jars - on this build I was unsuccessful deodexing swype and I used krylon360's swype and credited him for that.
6. Download the Nexus S dump
7. Pull all of the images I needed out of framework-res.apk and SystemUi.apk and the original bootanimation.zip and the icon out of every matching Gingerbread app
8. Carefully build the theme, re-mod the Gingerbread Launcher and create the faux crt shutdown sequence.
9. Rip the gps files from the Nexus S dump including permissions for gps and maps and restructure JL5 to call these files
10. Replace with 3E recovery, ensure the sdcard mounts, etc..
11. Flash and fix 219 times until it is 99% bug free and ready for an Alpha release.
As you can see, this is not a weekend cooked rom as put earlier in the thread.
I update my roms usually once a day until it is complete, I fulfill requests for kernel flash packs for the rom, etc..
I did get pretty angry and pulled my roms - I later replaced the most recent rom. I also set up my website as a backup, which is quickly becoming my primary release source. I will stay around xda though like it or not.
On those who have followed me to the new site in support: Thank you.
Finally, a very short word on TW.
I have nothing but respect for these guys. I learned everything from them.
And that is my word on this.
i have a rooted fascinate, no im not posting where my 2.2 update is, it'll get here when it gets here, more that this is a call out to any devs and end users like myself that are tired of the same old rom styles and themes. Some roms are straight beautiful, like Thatdudebutch's super dark v1, and sos3 blackhole, whereas some just seem too stock-ish to me.
Where is the imagination? The creativity? I know devs are always working they're ass's off to bring us the next best port or rom based off insert other rom name here... but im ready for the dev that says hey i created this from scratch...
Maybe its just me, maybe im being a whiney ass lol, but i think its time devs started using what they think is cool, not what everyone else thinks is cool. If the enduser doesnt like the rom/theme, then boo ****in hoo and they can use something else.
Like i think SONOFSKYWALKER3's idea of build your own rom was a huge breakthrough in end user controlled customization, but its still using whats already available to us in either stock, or from the select few top 3 roms.
Please guys, (devs too) Show us what you can really do, make that rom that takes our breath away. We will love you for it...i will love you for it (metaphorically speaking of course lol)
Show us what you can do too
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
Progress is progress. The devs are porting gb to the Fascinate, that's a start in real customization. Just wait, the devs are already working hard. If your pushing them so hard, why don't you help? Seriously, its this disappointment in devs that ruins a devs commitment.
Rockin' DJ05, Minimal Icognito, Clocked at 1.3Ghz
Why must everything be taken so negatively? I read this first post and saw it as inspiration. I can see that the devs who make roms make it for the general public not for themselves, and I think thats why they make them so similar to each other, as thats what most people like. I feel that a dev isn't really ready to go out of his/her way to bust they're ass and make a rom that only they and a handful of others are going to use.
All in all, I think the OPer made a good point in "challenging" the devs to 'unleash' their creativity into the atmosphere and make somthing of their own that they are truely balls to the wall about.
Just my 2 cents.
TheSonicEmerald said:
Progress is progress. The devs are porting gb to the Fascinate, that's a start in real customization. Just wait, the devs are already working hard. If your pushing them so hard, why don't you help? Seriously, its this disappointment in devs that ruins a devs commitment.
Rockin' DJ05, Minimal Icognito, Clocked at 1.3Ghz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree completely...remember the devs don't have to do what they do for us...if it was as simple as 1,2,3 then everyone would create their own roms for themselves...
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
The problem is, there's more worth in porting gingerbread and then porting other roms like cyangenmod which are easier to customize, than customizing samsung's firmware updates.
Rockin' DJ05, Minimal Icognito, Clocked at 1.3Ghz
jdkzombie said:
If the enduser doesnt like the rom/theme, then boo ****in hoo and they can use something else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah.. so what was the point of your post again?
Not at all trying to be negative, but what exactly are you looking for?
Sent from my SCH-I500
you are all missing the point of my post
its not to bash devs, its not to berate anyone, nor was it to solicit "why dont you do it yourself" comments. But since thats how everyone is going to take it, i guess i need to clarify. What i meant by devs making what they think is cool is for them to use their imagination and make their roms and themes unique. Too many roms out there have been sourced from others...not that this is a bad thing as there are beautiful works of art available to all who wants to flash them..
These devs bust their ass to make these things for us and i respect that with all my being, and i appreciate all that they do. My hats off to all of them. But, again, wheres the creativity? Why must they be forced to use what is already in the eclair, froyo, and Gingerbread roms as their inspiration? These guys can take 0's and 1's and turn them into something beautiful that cant be taken seriously in just pictures. In the last 3 days i have flashed more things to my phone than i can hardly count, yes i have screwed my phone up and recovered, but im not here explaining without experiencing the world of flashing.
Why dont i help out....i'd love to yet im not programmer. I have zero idea how coding and programming and bitmapping works. Thats why we have developers. Im not here to bash anyone. I go to school currently to be a master mechanic, therefore computer programming is worlds different from installing and tuning a greddy turbo, or replacing a radiator, or even doing a tune up on (insert friends name here)'s car.
Im calling out to devs to stop being restrained by the limitations we as endusers have put on them, to indirectly force their hand in creating something they may not like but we will because otherwise people out there will gripe and complain. Devs, make what YOU want. There are limitless capabilities to be had in android because its so open. As developers you are the ones who provide for us when the manufacturers fail to hold up their word/rumor/promise/ etc, i dont want you to think that you have to make these for us, i want you to want to make these for us. Without you developers we would all be stuck to a basic android existence harkening to that of apple and its lockdown on whats what.
I wanna see creations from your darkest fantasies about android. I want to see the rom that gets you all hot and bothered. I want to see the theme that you got the inspiration for while you were driving around town or watching a movie. Dammit guys, make what you want to see android be, enough being the lambs, its time to be the lion. When phone manufacturers fail, where do we turn? To you devs. You. I cant even begin to describe how much respect i have for what you do for us.
I'll finish this off with something for the people who will no doubt bash me and flame because i need to do it myself, or im being to hard on them, or i'm just being a whiny little *****. boo hoo. get over it. Its my post, regarding my OPINION. I didnt force any of you to view it. to read it. to comment on it. the fact that you did shows that each one of you feels the same way i do. We all love android. We all love what the devs do. Why should we hold them back from what their imaginations can design? What gives us the right to do that....
Respect devs...always and forever from me....respect.
jdkzombie said:
Why dont i help out....i'd love to yet im not programmer. I have zero idea how coding and programming and bitmapping works. Thats why we have developers.
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Click to collapse
Well, you don't have to be a programmer to be "creative". In the design process all sorts of people are involved, and you could think up a concept. You could design a concept so great that a programmer would like at it and think it's great and decide to bring it to life. But asking people to be creative on your behalf, and using "i'm not a programmer" as an excuse to be a spectator is simply selfish I gotta say. Not trying to bash you too much, but simply saying there's many ways to be useful.
Jdkzombie is right...when linus developed the linux kernel he basically said....here it is, go forth and multiply...,now we have tons of different flavors and styles of linux. Android is awesome in its own right but we are only customizing something already there. (Devs....i definately mean no disrespect... ). The only thing i've seen so far that has bent that rule is MIUI. but that is too close to an iphone for me. I think what jdk is trying to say is...,where are the truely custom roms with wild and crazy user interfaces. I don't think jdk is asking the devs to stop what they are doing by no means...but maybe jdks asking why can't we all b more creative and come together as a community and come up with one ourselves with ideas from all of us...,and then find devs to take the plunge and make it happen. It all starts with an IDEA. So why not...,instead of bashing in this forum... ,let's start posting things we might want to be different in android and see what happens.
Think about it...,ubuntu linux- "your name here" android?
Thanks to all, devs, themers, and the users who have donated and contributed feedback over the years to make android what it is.
I may not post here much, but when i see something worth posting about i have to add MY opinion....and that's all it is.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
i think the op has a nice idea, but this probably isnt the phone to realize it on.
we have a handful of very talented devs, but really there time is mostly tied up in attempting to right the wrongs that samsung has done to us, by working on aosp/froyo/gb whatever.
the n1/ns community (or i9000) might be the guys you d want to bring your ideas to, as they have a global base of devs and their communities dwarf ours to the point of ridiculousness
See tho, one of the first lessons they teach you in most programming courses nowadays is "why reinvent the wheel?" It's there, it does it's job, why not build on top of that framework that already exists. This is the foundational principle of software engineering.
Think about it like this: you are in the woods and need to build a fire. You have plenty of dry wood, small kindling materials, and matches. Why would you go to the trouble of locating a striker stone and a piece of Flint to use to try and start the fire when you already have matches. You wouldn't unless you had no alternative or just liked to take the inefficient route for the sake of itself.
Another way to think of it is like this:
If I needed to drive from here in Mississippi to Nevada, I wouldn't build a car to drive if I already had one.
Devs are trying g to give us the most bang for our buck and that means using the tools and frameworks already in place.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
CrushD said:
Well, you don't have to be a programmer to be "creative". In the design process all sorts of people are involved, and you could think up a concept. You could design a concept so great that a programmer would like at it and think it's great and decide to bring it to life. But asking people to be creative on your behalf, and using "i'm not a programmer" as an excuse to be a spectator is simply selfish I gotta say. Not trying to bash you too much, but simply saying there's many ways to be useful.
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Click to collapse
Why must you assume i havent already given my thoughts and ideas to several devs and "themers" on IRC. I have frequented that site for a good amount of time the past handful of days, both getting assistance with "de-bricking" my phone when i flash a no no to my device, and helping out who i can with their own problems.
It isnt just just me that should be "expected" to come up with new ideas here. I expect everyone to have something to contribute if you are going to post your comments (i use the word "your" in reference to everyone, not just anyone in particular)
You want a bit of my idea? I wanted to see a rom where the screens scroll vertically. Not horizontally like they "all" do. Where when you swipe the screen from left to right it open "your" favorite app. Swipe the screen from right to left and it opens the app try. I have also mentioned that a quick 3 tap on the home screen would zoom out showing a carousel of sorts that you can scroll through to select 1 of 9 home screens that can be filled to burst with your favorite widgets and apps. I dont have a preset color idea. Instead that we be afforded a color "wheel" to choose ourselves what collor basic things are. Be afforded to opportunity to make multiple themes like with ADW, that can installed "into" the rom. I assume everyone has seen the DROID commercials where the two robots select a few apps in the giant app "planet." That would be a sweet app tray wouldnt it? Would it be impossible? I dont know, since i have no idea how programming works. But im sure it would be quite the undertaking.
I would hope that this could be a place for anyone to post their ideas as well, not just mine. I also have this distinct feeling that as of my posts i will be held to a "imaginary" standard that it will be my obligation to post ideas and inspirations. But then therin lies my issue with roms today in general. These roms arent being made for me. If a developer makes anything like my idea, i want it to be something they want to see in android, not just because someone else said hey you develop roms, why dont you make this so i can have it.
This isnt/wasnt/never will be a thread to bash anyone including devs, themers, end users (other posters, but thats my point.) I wont bother to say im not going to be the only one. I dont have to post that. The sheer fact that you (the general population that bothers to read this thread) shows that wish there was more creativity, more originality,....hell....more of the "DEV" in his/her creation than anything else. It would make a developers rom/theme so much more their creation. So when someone says hey i have (for example) ThatDudeButch's new theme, its unique to HIM....the developer... and someone else that has a theme by Adiliyo (also for example) its going to be unique to HIM. Im really hoping all of you have the mental capacity (i used that term for lack of a better one, no offense intended for anyone) and the maturity level to understand that this is a challenge to all who design, develop, or theme, or even just dream to no longer be limited by the general public. Design whatever makes you get a stiffy if thats what it takes. What with the new 2.3 android os out, why should we hold the devs to make different copies of whats out. Why cant we encourage them to make the unthinkable....the un imagined...the roms that arent bound to a single line of influence.
If you (everyone and anyone) are going to post here simply to flame me for speaking my mind about what i would love to see roms and themes become, then perhaps you should consider keeping your comments to yourselves. BUT, this being a public forum, and i am no moderator, i cannot make anyone not post here, nor what they post about, so with that i will only ask that you not just post for the sake of singling out a line of any of my posts to make a snide comment on how its up to me/i need to design it/being too hard on devs ruining their commitment/etc etc. If we werent hard on engineers/developers/programmers in world-wide view considering the design of everything we use today, we wouldnt be in possession of the technological breakthroughs that we have now. We would all still have bag phones. Model A fords, if even that, we would still be riding horses....might i even be bold enough to state we wouldnt even be out of the stone age if it hadnt been for someone somewhere pushing those who build to do bigger and better things.
Please, use common sense people. Im simply issuing a challenge to devs/themers to not be constrained by our ideals. Again, to make what THEY want to make. Remember, they dont have to do this for us, so why cant they build what they want. And thats why i respect what they do.
agsded said:
"why reinvent the wheel?"
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
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Im not asking for a new wheel, only a more efficient one. Thats such an over-cliched term anyways and has no merit (in my view) If we never reinvented anything, we'd not be in the possession of these beauties of creation we have today. I bet someone told Henry Ford why reinvent the wheel when he said lets have a car that can be available to the common man. Do you think Ford would be the automotive supergiant they are now if he had followed that advice? Do you think we would have Windows OS, Mac, or any of the other available computing OS's that we have now would be available now if the designers had followed your sage advice?
Please realize, im not bashing you, any of you, im not going to stoop that low. We are all adults here, and even some teenagers, whom i hope utilize that powerful muscle between their ears before they use their fingers, so why must we criticize? Why cant we , as so eloquently put in an earlier post, come together as a community and share ideas.
Just saying.
Yeah, but see all those things you mentioned arent revolutionary leaps of accomplishment, but simply evolution of existing products... refinements..
Henry Ford simply took the concepts of mass production, the assembly line, and interchangeable parts, and applied them to the automotive field. He didn't invent something new, he "engineered" something better from what was already there. He made cars more affordable, available, and easier to repair.
Technology is no different... mechanical switches to electric switches to vacuum tubes to transistors to integrated circuits, they are just extensions of what's there.
We don't still use carburetors because fuel injection is more efficient, largely because it can meter the fuel more precisely, especially at idle. But..the first fuel injection setups were just electronic carburetors, with the old central port fuel injection systems... even the newer ones still do the same thing, just more precisely...
I'd love a smartphone that could read my thoughts and had a neural interface with zero lag. Is it coming.... who knows....is it a reinvention... no, just another step in between a previous one and the next.
Something to ponder.... at the core of all operating systems is basic math.
Add one value to another and put the result here. Stick the right combo of values in the right set of registers and a pixel lights up on the screen. That's the way machine language works...so all software is an evolution of ones and zeros...
A switch is on, 1 a switch is off, 0... so basically computers are just a big ginormous pile of light switches, lol..
Anyways.... I agree, I'd live to see some real neat stuff for android, but at some point, you'd have to throw out android to make it radically different, and then it would just be yet ANOTHER attempt at a mobile os to further fragment things....instead of moving forward, we'd be moving sideways....not as bad as moving backwards, but not progress either....
That's
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Just curious, but... How do you know devs aren't creating what they want? Why would they waste time building something that they didn't want to do?
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
agsded said:
....instead of moving forward, we'd be moving sideways....not as bad as moving backwards, but not progress either....
That's
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
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I totally agree with you, but yet i also disagree. Which isnt a bad thing, at least we are agreeing to disagree i suppose lol But the point still stands. Why....why must we make do with what we have? Why not bring forth innovation? Is that not how progress is made? Im not looking for an overnight change in the way roms are designed. I only asking that the devs make it a challenge for themselves. Make something they havent done before. Im just winging this without black and white information, but how do we know that manufacturers dont look at these roms for their inspiration?
I'm only asking for that one ambitious dev who needs a challenge to strive for that next peg. The next rung on the ladder of progress. Yes Henry Ford didnt invent the automobile, but with his bringing the assembly line to his own needs he created something huge. Thats what im hoping devs will do for android. When we tire of out normal phone interfaces, to whom do we turn? Yes. thats right, these hard working devs. A vast majority of them create wonders with whats available to them. Others simply tweak and twist certain aspects to their own taste.
A phone that reads out thoughts with a neural interface with zero lag would indeed be a nice addition, but im certain 10 years down the road such a thing may come to be, but thats 10 years from now, if not more. Don't sell yourself short however, all ideas are welcome to me and to this thread. Its odd though, that with all the posts here i seem to be the only one who has put idea to page.
And to mr kevin gossett, How do we know they ARE. We dont. Its as simple as that. All that we can do is hope that there is a dev or 2 or even 3 out there that are willing to bring forth the new age of roms. We turn to these men and women because we are bored with our phones stock rom/theme, so why must the devs and us as end users together suffer the same style in the aftermarket themes and roms? Again not bashing devs here, just stating my opinion, that they need to make something that they love. there WILL be end users out there that will use their roms/themes. I still think some of you are missing my point with all of this, and instead strive to create some echelon of conflict purely for conflicts sake.
View my thread and posts as possible inspiration for the future. Not a bashing, or flaming of those who design for us. The DEVS create the roms, but the devs didnt design what they wanted to see, instead what we wanted to see. And i would love to see that reversed. The DEVS create what THEY want to see, and we use whatever we find to our tastes.
my head hurts
I think I understand what the OP is saying... But at the same time I kind of understand the other side of the fence. Coding is hard, and you must be very precise, and most of these guys are doing it for free. But I know what jdk is meaning....
I think he feels that the devs are limited in what they can create because they are branching off of other works and what people like. I think he wants to see what crazy ass stuff devs can come up with. he wants their creativities to explode all over his face. He wants to see what people can imagine and create. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as he understands the devs, that they have lives, they do this for free, and its hard work, which I think he does understand. I think he's just trying to inspire some folk.
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
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I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
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Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us
Lmao I'm loving and had to contribute to what I can only describe as "better than jeremy kyle" show that's going on over in the dev section.
My views are like many and as for being all for new development on wildfire I just can't comprehend why this mockery has been allowed to go on for so long? I'm urging moderators to act on this matter of continuous so called "new fast and stable roms" that havnt even been tested!! That suddenly are discontinued and replaced by yet another.
It really does take alot to rile me up the wrong way but this has got to be sorted PLEASE.
this is my opinion which I have the right to air and really don't wish to offend any individuals, I respect my own and everyone's rights but surely this point must be addressed.
Kindest regards,slymobi.
sent from my emmaroid infected wilderbeast
LOL....... Not many people will know what you mean by the jezza comment but i certainly do!!
The thing that really ticks me off is the fact that all these roms are popping up and where is the credit for the real developer, you know the guy who has actually sat in front of a computer for hours on end staring at code over and over and over again to actually bring them a base to dissect and add a few apps (incorrectly too if i might add as most of the time they fc constantly) and finally slap there name on it to hopefully make them famous xda developers!!
Well no-one can pull the wool over my eyes that easily and i'll be sticking with the true dev's, the ones who can actually read a logcat and make sense of it all and also fix problems instead of just deleting the problem and starting again!!
:End Rant:
True developers !?
I agree with both of you as there have been so many "stable" ROMS that never got tested... And they pop up every 5 seconds lately.
Can it be due to the fact that most of the "true developers" (your definition) moved to other/new phones ? Hence we have new developers (or wannabe's) at the early stages of their careers So they will learn and eventually earn the title "true developer". Maybe we should not act so harsh and scare them off !!! We do need some developers to breath in some new life into these old phones of ours.
I am not a developer myself... But I have couple of things to say about you guys' definition of "true developers".... My question is where do you really draw the line? So a true developer should be able to built from source according to your definition. Well they need the source for that... And its coded by someone else... So all they are doing in effect is compiling someone elses code. Maybe they are not the "true developers" either???
All I am trying to say is, cool off a bit, let the new developers/wannabe's mature. As I am sure they are quite young.
And a note to the new developers: Be patient and work first and then gloat. Do not call every release "stable". You know we have words like "alpha", "beta" etc...
p.s. And what happened to the term ROM Cook? We do have the kitchen.. If that makes people happy, maybe we should call them COOKS. After all, not everybody is a good cook ...
You have some good valid points but I think your not totally understanding our concerns.
Nobody is against new developers or up and coming ones either. Its the manner in which they conduct themselves and there project. A simple example is...... lets say I take your post and edit it and change what you've said a little bit then stop half way thro
sent from my emmaroid infected wilderbeast
Ugh then change the name etc etc cos I got bored or encountered some errors!! Would this mean that the original post does not deserve any credit. Now if you read your quoted post in my post youll see ive edited a few things just for an example my friend ( now removed after point being made and recognized) and is in no way intended to offend you. I have personally had pm conversation with one of the newbies and respect that he is new and learning and offered him some simple advice which he was thankful for I think. I'm no dev either and have no ambition to become one lol I'm to lazy but I would go about things differently to most of the so called new devs. Regards slymobi.
sent from my emmaroid infected wilderbeast
"thesherrif " now that I like... Some changes are good I guess.
I understand your concerns very well... But it is what it is when it comes to young people. Especially this generation They get bored quiet fast and move onto a new ROM/new thread. Eventually, they will mature up. Winzipping won't be enough for them, and they start to dig deep into their ROMs and start doing some "true developing" with patience to stick with what they've started.
Unfortunately for us, they will live through their early stages of developing with us, and when they become competent developers they will move to other phones That is the price of owning an old (and cheap enough for kids to buy) phone like wildfire.
Arrggghhh I should get a new phone. I really need to...
Lol nice end. I agree. I used to love testing out new roms but slowly found that the next was too similar to the previous,I just think maybe there should be some kind of testing review period by experienced members before new roms are openly posted. Or like another very respected member has stated, split the dev section into new and original!! I have not named said member due to my respect for him. Regards slymobi.
P.s I'm gonna have to go some work my boss is getting pissed at me lol. Bye bye.
sent from my emmaroid infected wilderbeast
Hehe
I find it incredibly funny to download one of those roms and see my name & build box in the compile strings
One of them even changed the developer ID (as used by Rom Manager)... f'k knows why, you need more that just a line in a file to get it on there
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
And the one that's apparently "final"... I wonder if there will be a "final v2" if I ever get this bloody camcorder fixed
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