Database Users

Community ROM ideas(nothing but love)

I hope this will come to fruition with the input and help of everyone here.
I think having a community ROM(s) where all contributors get a equal share of donations would be a great idea for our community and catch on. That way when one donates it goes to all contributors developers/bakers/and anyone else who would be contributing by managing the thread/hosting or anything else that would be a part of the new Community ROM(now that's love). The specifics can be ironed out (suggestions welcomed). I personally don't want to be a contributor just the inspiration to get this moving. So I will be out of the picture.
Any suggestions would be welcomed!!!
A few I would have are:
How would developers divide the moneys? I was thinking a trusted and liked community member who would run the thread. Or if their was a way to set up Paypal or something to divide payments to all contributors(probably unlikely)
This Community ROM should be about 100% Love and that their should be absolutely no fighting over moneys. If an individual doesn't want to receive money then they must suggest a cause to donate to.
When one donates to the Community ROM, it's exactly that, they are donating to a community!! Now thats love!
(please post in thread)

i think thats a good idea...i see certain people getting tons (litterally TONS) of donations, yet the people that are really behind a lot of that development are getting next to nothing. I see no problems there....giving credit by listing a name means nothing unless a portion of the donations are credited to each person involved.

Yeah, i agree with this. A commynity rom would be great if we all put our heads together.
Sent from my Cappy using mental telepathy, *****ezz.

I agree good idea.
the rom should be a generic rom

I am very much so interested in this idea, the question is, what kind of ROM would we be aiming to build? I'd be simply satisfied with a true, working AOSP build

I second Kaik!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

I'm working on trying to build from aosp
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

I am glad to hear this. ROMCOM sounds like a good name.
Seriously though if you guys want to do a aosp then by all means do it. I just wanted to put the idea out there , if you want to get all nasty and make a baked out ROM then by all means do it. It was the concept that i wanted to see incorporated in this. It all love...

Yeah, a working community ROM would be a godsend. Look how CM worked out. If we could build and then submit for approval to one person, or the community as a whole, we could come out with something great.
Sent from my Cappy using mental telepathy, *****ezz.

I think this is a great idea!!! We should do this for AOSP!! Im glad to help out even without donations but I'd take some too . Lets all get together on an IRC for planning this out imo? Want the channel to be #captivateaosp?

amwbt said:
I second Kaik!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
-1 for kaik!! lol

I don't know. I'll be the naysayer here, and say I think diversity is best. Cooperation? Sure. Trading ideas and being open and transparent? Yes. Trying to make everyone work on one rom, whether it's the one they want or not? I dunno

E_man5112 said:
I don't know. I'll be the naysayer here, and say I think diversity is best. Cooperation? Sure. Trading ideas and being open and transparent? Yes. Trying to make everyone work on one rom, whether it's the one they want or not? I dunno
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm kind of thinking along the same lines. Community stuff is great. I like the idea. And I also agree that it's a shame that some people end up getting lots of donations while the people that came before them making their ROM possible get nothing.
But like E-man said what about the normal diversity that we'd see with ROMs?
If everyone was working on only one ROM would they still have time to work on a ROM that has all the whistles and bells, and a ROM that has the bare minimum, and a ROM that has a fancy UI, and a ROM that....?

I'm all for this, but frankly I don't think there's a lot of incentive for the folks who know what they're doing to start working on something like this at the moment. We just got our first Froyo leak and the rumors are floating around about when this will become final. My point being, most serious developers aren't going to want to start working on Eclair when Froyo is really close to being on the scene.
That said, I'd love to see a project like this take place, and I'll be more than happy to test things, troubleshoot things, and help out where I can to support such a project

Like I said before this is a layout as long as the principles are applied then if some or few or different developers and contributors want to start another one or two then by all means do it! This principal should not be contained to just one ROM but used as a template for future ROMs. It's the communal monetary sharing that should always be applied in whatever ROM the community builds.

The perfect developing team.

Been following IRC channels for the past few weeks. My impression is that the direction of development is unclear. Lots of side steps. Nobody is certain where to go next. Still there is a lot to improve. Maybe it’s a good idea to set up a development team with well defined functions instead of individual artists.
So here is my line-up.
Cotulla: obviously a very bright guy, but his weak point is probably communication. Should be at the centre of development. Can handle more tasks simultaneously. Position him as a knowledge base and think-tank. Not a single specialised task, that's a waste.
Markinus, Rajko, cass67, Hastarin. These are hands on guys. Can focus on the job to be done. Give them an area to deal with and they will deliver.
gauner1986: Jack of all trades. link between all other team members. Good guy to keep the spirit up and always supportive. Planner and supervisor.
LeTama: seem like the perfect guy to handle logistics and facilitate the whole team. Can also bring some good pointers to the table. Can probably manage the team.
Delenn, technician, hardware guy. Can give good support.
m-deejay: don't waste your breath, get on with it. He’s good at finalizing and give us an end product, although he's also perfectly capable of bringing in some valuable ideas and pointing out the right direction.
charansingh: New kid on the HD2 block, although he doesn't own one. I am impressed with his initial contribution, especially on IRC. This is the kind of quick thinking guy who is able to analyse the problem at hand and ask the right questions to come to a solution. This is a great quality. Could be an overall supervisor. Is to fast and erratic to manage the team.
Dcordes, darkstone: seem occupied with other matters atm. I hope there undoubted great knowledge can be used as advisors.
NetRipper: has done his (very good) part. Stated himself that he is out of it for a while now. Still, he facilitates IRC logs and is present to help out.
There are a lot of good devs not mentioned here, but the line-up is limited to 11. I love football (or soccer for out of Europe continents) so 11 it is
Yea, you are thinking “4tune, you know it all, don’t you”. This little exercise is not to criticize anyone, nor am I pretending to be right about all above. It is just a brief first impression. Still, my whole point is that developing could be better organized if the abundant talent is used the right way. In real live I would deal with it this way.
__________________

Interesting read,
Its got some legs to it but I dont think it would run very far, ill tell u why without matching your word count
1. Your talking about developers/ creative people, in my experience, a quickfire way to kill creativity is to introduce an unfamiliar structure especially this late in the game, it can kill the flow.
2. I haven't had the time to follow the dev thread but from what I can gather these guys are dotted around the globe doing this in there spare time. What you propose would be great for a formal dev team within a company, I think adding that type of formality to this project would slowly kill it off.
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression this is more of a hobby than work to them, they've come this far as an autopoietic group, taking away this freedom and assigning set roles may well kill the motivation.
So you see, you are going to kill hd2 android
I urge you to reconsider this thread, take it down before anyone gets these ideas
Interesting though!

Cotulla and Dellen are the same guy.

kam333 said:
Interesting read,
Its got some legs to it but I dont think it would run very far, ill tell u why without matching your word count
1. Your talking about developers/ creative people, in my experience, a quickfire way to kill creativity is to introduce an unfamiliar structure especially this late in the game, it can kill the flow.
2. I haven't had the time to follow the dev thread but from what I can gather these guys are dotted around the globe doing this in there spare time. What you propose would be great for a formal dev team within a company, I think adding that type of formality to this project would slowly kill it off.
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression this is more of a hobby than work to them, they've come this far as an autopoietic group, taking away this freedom and assigning set roles may well kill the motivation.
So you see, you are going to kill hd2 android
I urge you to reconsider this thread, take it down before anyone gets these ideas
Interesting though!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1... these are people that are doing this as a hobby and for free. This isn't there job... they don't want people telling them what to do. Be grateful for what they have accomplished... we have one of the best android ports on a winmo phone available for our hd2s. If someone really wants a perfect running android and the hd2 port isn't good enough, get a native android phone that was meant for android. They have professional development teams like you suggest at HTC and Samsung and Google.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App

kam333 said:
Interesting read,
Its got some legs to it but I dont think it would run very far, ill tell u why without matching your word count
1. Your talking about developers/ creative people, in my experience, a quickfire way to kill creativity is to introduce an unfamiliar structure especially this late in the game, it can kill the flow.
2. I haven't had the time to follow the dev thread but from what I can gather these guys are dotted around the globe doing this in there spare time. What you propose would be great for a formal dev team within a company, I think adding that type of formality to this project would slowly kill it off.
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression this is more of a hobby than work to them, they've come this far as an autopoietic group, taking away this freedom and assigning set roles may well kill the motivation.
So you see, you are going to kill hd2 android
I urge you to reconsider this thread, take it down before anyone gets these ideas
Interesting though!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree with this.

Lol! I had a good laugh reading this.
Too late to remove it!
It's funny to see how the others and I are perceived...
And, no, I don't want to be project manager, I do that for a living. Having hands in code is what makes it fun.
And yes, it's a hobby! Not work.
Anyway, no offense taken... Thanks for the smile
LeTama

I think that we have to give them a big kiss and a big applause for all they have done and accomplished! Great work to all of you guys! Keep it up!

don't sell MDJ short as a developers, his kernel is the best one IMO right now

mattfmartin said:
Cotulla and Dellen are the same guy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
are you sure?

gianmich said:
are you sure?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes he also uses Kosh and Sinclair.

orangekid said:
don't sell MDJ short as a developers, his kernel is the best one IMO right now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second dat
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App

Devs that quit: who's to blame?

The thought popped up in my head this morning. I remembered Eugene, the developer of the Macnut ROM, who no longer supported XDA. Then another dev, jellette, that quit for reasons I can't quite understand. Who's to blame for these developers quitting the scene, or only providing ROMs on other sites?
I'm a 16 year old high school student in San Francisco. I've been lurking the forums ever since I got my Vibrant and my friend directed me here. I'm not at all new to hacks like these, I've been participating in communities and actions like these since I was 12. I never found a reason to become closely connected within this community, though. It's not a small group, it's a much larger one, and I don't have any place to fit in. This is one of my first posts, and it's one that I feel I need to share with the community: my thoughts and beliefs on the whole situation about devs that no longer support XDA or flat out quit.
Let's cover some ground first:
These devs are not paid. They make these ROMs, custom kernels, and other mods in their spare time. The only money they make off these ROMs comes from donations, and some devs don't ask for donations anyway.
The users are not paying for this work. The users don't need to give feedback, however they are permitted and allowed to comment, criticize, or help the developers in any way.
The trade made here is obviously unfair: give nothing, get something. In many cases, get a great piece of work for your phone that will make it blazing fast and give it features and functionality unheard of to other users of the same phone. The devs are ok with this though, as they freely release their work without a price tag.
However, there are some things devs are not ok with. I can't speak for each and every single developer, but having once done development in my own time as well, I can say the one thing that really aggravates all developers, and all people even, is when your work goes unnoticed, or worse yet, gets disrespected. When some bombarding, ignorant user comes along and rips apart your hard work, what are you to do? "This ROM is utterly horrible, you should've put more work into it before releasing this paperweight." Maybe a bit over the top, but it gets the point across, and it's from this that a developer will most likely quit XDA as he sees fit.
So what can we say about the users, the freeloaders? Some decency is expected of all of us, basically. That's the lesson every user should know: respect those that give you what you get. They're not robots that work endlessly with nothing better to do. These are people, hard working men and women who spend hours on end making software for you. Give them your respect. Constructive criticism is nice, but never go so far as to demote them as a person. If you want their respect, you must give them respect. Make them feel welcome and they will continue to work for the entire community. It's simple, human nature.
As for developers, are they in the right place to quit under these grounds? There is no set ground for quitting. Each person sees fit at what time he or she should quit working, in any case: as a dev, as an employee, as anyone. People need to know their limits, and they do know their limits. As a free working developer, they have a lot more liberty in deciding when they want to stop working for the community. Even someone who didn't feel accused or demoted could leave for no reason and it wouldn't affect them as much as if they had left their full-time paying job. This is not a source of revenue, it's not a source of anything, in fact.
One thing devs should know, and this is coming straight from me, is that as someone who releases work on the forums, your name will be known, and it's wise that you build a public image for yourself. Quitting without reason, without a post to describe your feelings, to express concerns or thoughts on the community or whatever else you'd like to mention, does not help build a good public image. You are at liberty to do as you please, that's your free choice, but people will judge you based on your actions. Throwing yourself into a position as such, as a chef, comes with more than just giving out work. It comes with the comments users will give you. It's good to be able to politically conduct yourself, to create a good public image, which will ultimately help you avoid the negative comments the public makes.
In conclusion:
Users: Be respectful, have some common decency. This is for all of us, not just those who don't get it. It's a rule we should all know. Developers are humans, just like us. Respect them as such.
Developers/chefs: You are free to do what you like. Quit as you please, continue as you please, no one will stop you. It is, however, important to make a good public image. Not necessary, but important. Conduct yourself in a political manner, because us users see you as a strong force, not just as a person. Be ready to make a good public image.
I want to know your thoughts on this. I feel it's important that this ground is covered, and that we come to a general consensus on this. The more you know, the better off you are. The more we all know, the better off we will all be.

if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.

xriderx66 said:
if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second that...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.

I agree with you 100% in partucular regarding the users.
I came to this forum looking for support, trying to get the GPS working on my Vibrant.
Before I posted or did anything I read many threads and researched what it meant to use Odin and to root the phone and flash a rom and to recover from a problem before I even started anything. When I did I was fully aware that I and I alone, was responsible for anything that happened to my phone. I am continually amazed at how some people jump in, without a clue as to what they are doing, then seem to try to blame the developers for their problems. Then you have the group who complain about colors or a boot animation or a "missing" app on a rom they got for free. Simply amazing the entitlement people have over something that someone puts out there for them to try to improve their phone for free.
I can understand how the devs could get fed up with these sorts of actions. It can take a pretty thick skin to deal with all the stuff I see going on here.

It is like a preschool in here...just get used to it.
Life will go on, and someone will always be making roms--herds are pathetic, individuals are lost inside said herds. Keep your ears open and your mouth shut.
My $0.02

No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.

ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
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Click to collapse
I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...

I have plenty of respect for the few guys who make a few useful programs, and I don't think I've ever bashed a dev's work openly. But:
ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
/Twerd.
Gotta give respect to receive, and some devs just think they are God's gift to Captain Taco. It's the Internet - no one gets respect on the 'tubes. Who gives a ****. The growing up really neds to happen on the part of most of these "I'm pouty b/c someone said something crass about some weekend work I did" "developers."
Drewstein said:
I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...
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Click to collapse
McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
-bZj

Agree ...........great post clear concise and to the point. Funny, that a 16 year old can articulate the basics of good behavior that most in here do not practice. I do not blame a lot of the devs leaving, people rag on their work give nothing but complaints..... as if they have the skill (yeah right).People will eagerly wait 10 min in a Starbucks line, pay 5.00 for a coffee and never donate to the dev, XDA or anything........then complain when the custom rom they got for free doesn't work the WAY they like or want......... talk about selfish irony...........
Great post !! kevipapo1 (from a guy old enough to be your grandpa )

i agree with it. people need to remember that without dev. we would all be running stock

If master leaves I'll suicide.
I hope ur reading this, master

Unfortunately this is the interwebz and this is has its been in any android forum I've ventured through. As you are young, but yet seem to be fairly wise, I say to you "welcome to the world my friend!"

Very good post.
Most criticism is from lack of knowledge/education. People don't understand how difficult it is to develop a ROM. So they criticise what they don't understand because it inconveniences them.
However, I will disagree somewhat with developer criticism. Although, I don't agree with the way Master handled the situation, I can relate.
I believe it is very important for us to realize that ROM developers are not public figures. They have the freedom to stop and start as they please. Their passion is development, after all, not public relations.
Kudos OP. Excellent post!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I just want to say thanks to all Developers here at XDA. Without you and your ROMS or tweaks i wouldn't have the great phone i have today that i spent my hard earned money on, and to the immature people if something doesn't work right on a ROM insted of being an ASS!!! and saying how crappy it is say whats wrong and they will fix it they have for me.
Again thanks to all who have helped you don't even know me but you all are ready to help at anytime day or night.
GARY

I personally am 15 and have been in xda since 13
I appreciate the devs for all their work if it wasn't for them i would have killed myself with many frustrations of a stock vibrant
I hate that some are immature and that some get really irritating i understand that some are new but some just get on nerves.
I wish eugene came back because he was.one of the first devs here
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

This is a great post & I echo the op's sentiments. This forum and the devs that contribute to it are a phenomenal resource to all of us and deserve to be treated with respect as we all do. The real shame is that a 16 yr old realizes this more than most of us adults (some of which are in name only). I've been in these forums for only a short time and the amount of immaturity, cynacism and deconstructive criticism I have seen is truly apalling and frankly I'm suprised more haven't bailed. I guess the Golden Rule isn't important when you've got the anonymity of the internet.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

Lethal_NFS said:
I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because someone is childish does NOT mean that they are a child.
I've seen many adults that throw a tantrum worse than a 5 year old and many 5 year olds who act like they're going on 30.
Likely their age has nothing to do with it & its just a reflection of their random genetics and/or crappy parenting.
down8 said:
McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If its an issue, then xda should make a max image/sig size (like you mentioned other sites do). That simple.
Most of his signature tells you to search & read the XDA rules before posting, not really bad advice & since he has to answer questions from many people who don't do either, I can't really blame him.
It would be a LOT more aesthetically pleasing if it were text only, but since XDA allows it, I don't really have a problem with it.
Most of the devs have developed a bit of an attitude (I've seen it from Eugene, SomBionix, Master, and a few others) because of the crap they have to deal with & XDA not enforcing their own rules (this is supposed to have changed after the town hall meeting).

i have been on xda since 2005, left came back etc etc, i do minor edits and coding here and there for myself because i dont have the time like these other people. but honestly most people need to get over themselves. this is a strong community and will live on without you. that said this community has made some people millionaires and others just brats who want the limelight. the idea behind this site is to take the software into our own hands. its us vs. corporations. if devs want to leave cool stfu about it and go but keep in mind that unless you have a contributed to the community dont complain about someones work. devs know what come when you start producing products. its the same that companys deal with. most leave because they get their feelings hurt. its not like people are stalking you and breaking your kneecaps because angry birds wouldnt play during their lunchbreak. ignore the negative and stay or wine and leave. but this place or any place wont change. the more successful you get the harder your skin must be

About me and why it all got under my skin.
James / jellette / Heathen
39 year old, married, father of 3
<Edited out line, too personal>
I look around and see Darky, Doc, Jim, Eugene, TW and everyone else doing Gingerbread clones - and they aren't called "Copy Cat" - but when I do it I am. That makes a guy pretty darn mad.
I set out to do the latest Rom 100% from scratch without drawing from the work of any existing Rom specifically because of my relationship with TW. The takers out there have no idea how much work goes into doing that.
Here was and continues to be the process with PepperKake.
1. Download the JL5 Rom from samfirmware.com
2. Odin to get a feel for the new firmware.
3. Rip the files from factoryfs.rfs
4. Release the first flashable Odexed recovery safe JL5 by 30 minutes
5. Deodex the apps and jars - on this build I was unsuccessful deodexing swype and I used krylon360's swype and credited him for that.
6. Download the Nexus S dump
7. Pull all of the images I needed out of framework-res.apk and SystemUi.apk and the original bootanimation.zip and the icon out of every matching Gingerbread app
8. Carefully build the theme, re-mod the Gingerbread Launcher and create the faux crt shutdown sequence.
9. Rip the gps files from the Nexus S dump including permissions for gps and maps and restructure JL5 to call these files
10. Replace with 3E recovery, ensure the sdcard mounts, etc..
11. Flash and fix 219 times until it is 99% bug free and ready for an Alpha release.
As you can see, this is not a weekend cooked rom as put earlier in the thread.
I update my roms usually once a day until it is complete, I fulfill requests for kernel flash packs for the rom, etc..
I did get pretty angry and pulled my roms - I later replaced the most recent rom. I also set up my website as a backup, which is quickly becoming my primary release source. I will stay around xda though like it or not.
On those who have followed me to the new site in support: Thank you.
Finally, a very short word on TW.
I have nothing but respect for these guys. I learned everything from them.
And that is my word on this.

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

Quit derailing development threads please.

Please stop derailing development threads, it really is getting out of hand. Instead of letting moderators step in, how about policing ourselves? If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything. If you take ownership to the matter, then settle it in private channels. This is only hindering people learning the inner workings of android and roms.
If one person creates rom A, built from source (obviously referring to aosp roms). Chances are rom A is using work done by other individuals in the community to achieve a certain goal. This is called an Open Source Community. So rom B comes in and uses A as a base. This is great, because I've found that when this occurs, bugs get squashed much quicker. No matter the skills of the user/developer, they have the ability to find some of the smallest issues that cause the biggest bugs. Even if rom B only has little things like the wifi scan interval changed, or added/subtracted APK's. The only thing necessary here, is a little bit of credit and submitting/notifying the original author of bug fixes and/or enhancements. When this occurs, there is no "he did this" "he got this working first" bull. I could go on forever on proper etiquette, but that's not my point. Let's let everyone do their thing, and if there is a real issue that needs to be addressed, handle it in a classy manner.
Thanks for your time, and i apologize in advance to moderators if this thread gets out of hand, feel free to remove it.

Well said, now if people will only start holding back their words.

Sounds good. Credit where credit is due. No one develops completely on their own (for the most part). Even the CM branch is a "team". When knowledgeable people work together (and acknowledge the source of their work) we all win, and the builds get better.
This model benefits all.
I know, as the user of a now ancient device, I would love to see development NOT come to a halt, or be pushed off to the unfindable fringes.
Sent from my PC36100 using xda premium

I'm very grateful for all the people out there who put their time and effort into making my device better and enjoyable....essentially saving me money....and ask for very little in return. I believe Google has set and shown the example that when people share ideas and work....a product can improve and evolve much faster. Thanks to everybody out there who participates and believes in these principles, and I look forward to your future endeavours.
Sent from my OG SuperEvo using Tapatalk

Well said, Drew! Awesome

Yup Yup. Btw I agree with what you said in the other thread about not completely agreeing with the xda rule in regards to having to gain permission to use peoples work. Only thing that should be req is proper notation in the OP that its being used and that's it. Imho.
It gets real sad around here when people fight over work and even more so when they do so in public channels. Happened in the 3D section awhile ago and was redic.
If you did something and you don't see credit in an OP for it It's simple, PM the user to discuss it and if that doesn't work PM a mod to help mediate the dispute. NEVER should it be discussed in public threads!
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App

Well written Mr Drew. I wouldn't worry about those who mess things for everyone else, they surely have nothing better to do.
Keep up the solid work.
Thanks.

That was perfect. Not only are you a tremendous developer, but a very wise person as well. Thank you for taking the time out to write this up. And thank you and everyone else for sharing your/their knowledge.
It would be really nice if there was a list where everything that's gotten done/fixed giving credit to that particular person. Or perhaps when you work off of someone else's work, you bring all of the credits with you. That way as it moves along the credits will stay with that particular version of rom.
By the way, preview7 is running great.
Thanks again,
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Let's not forget about donating to the devs of which you use their hard work. Yes this stuff is free, but hours and hours go into the smallest things sometimes. Even if everyone donated 1 dollar to the dev(s)of the Rom or whatever you use, you're still making a difference. Let's show each other some respect here. Not just to other devs, but to other users also

I wrote this in the other thread but it applies here too. A huge thanks to all who are truly interested in moving forward and improving the Evo experience. And +1 on donating to the devs, all of the devs.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=22234151&postcount=45

Good post drewizzle
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

tommytomatoe said:
Good post drewizzle
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 well stated

Well, everyone should just place nice in the sand box, end of story. Development will get back on it's steady crawl.