Database Users

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
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Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
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I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
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Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
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Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

*POLL* - Merging Original Android Development and Android Development

Keep the thread alive and up guys.
Here are some very nice suggestion!​
Hello community.
As you all know and see there two different thread
Original Android Development
Android Development
In this two thread you can find different ROMs.
Therefore it is in some cases difficult to distinguish in which thread a ROM have to be. Some DEVs (@ the Android Development) think they are at the wrong place but the Mods doesnt want to move their thread.
Please make here you choice if you want the old subdivision (only Android Development) oder if you like the new one (Original Android Development and Android Development).
It would be nice if you can leave here your reasons for your choice..
Uh quite nice!?
NeoPhyTe.x360 said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=16205643&postcount=186
https://twitter.com/#!/VillainROM/status/98306513713635328
I quote it in case of be deleted, VillainROM Tweet 2 Aug. 10.17 am:
@VillainROM
VillainROM
LMFAO mate @Fysi. Can you vote for the 2 forum system at http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=1198080 ^P
What are the interests of Villain Team, to keep forums separated?
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Click to collapse
Source: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=16295037&postcount=27

More splitting imo.
Kernels/roms(org/non)/radios/apps/themes
And a stricter policy on tagging threads in the tittle, eg [ROM][KERNEL] etc

Nice idea but i dont think that radios should have an extra thread. They can sty with kernels.
What do you mean with
roms(org/non)
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Click to collapse
org/non = original/non Samsung or original/non AD?

veyka said:
More splitting imo.
Kernels/roms(org/non)/radios/apps/themes
And a stricter policy on tagging threads in the tittle, eg [ROM][KERNEL] etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
It is nice not seeing a 'new' rom being posted every two minutes where the only difference is the theme.
Perhaps the section titles could be a little bit clearer, For example: Android Development, and the other section called Themed Roms?

Id like to see even more splitting for ROM+Kernel and Kernel only releases, Its really a PIA sometimes to sort the threads out when your looking for something and it kinda scares off the newbie with a ton load of information and choices presented to him when his just looking for something specific.
Id say have a separate release for ROM+Kernel in 1 subforum and another for kernel only.

kamal007 said:
Sent from my X10i using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its another way to increase post count

veyka said:
More splitting imo.
Kernels/roms(org/non)/radios/apps/themes
And a stricter policy on tagging threads in the tittle, eg [ROM][KERNEL] etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that tagging is very important, I prefer only one section, but with very stricted thread's TAGGING...
And I think that is very important explain the non-cosmetic changes in every ROM.
Regards!

Exactly, strict tagging, good references as to where the rom was based on, and credits where needed.
One thread.

only one Android Development

One forum for development, one for roms and stuff. I have no interest in reading about the majority of the problems people have in installing a ROM, but would be interested in seeing the technical threads (if we still have technical threads here...)

Merge the Development forums again and require [ROM] and a date in the subject.
Require all [ROM]'s built from another 'original' rom's sources to have [DERIVATIVE] or something like to identify them with a link to the source rom in the thread.
Pull [KERNAL]'s out to a second forum, again require a date.
Create a 'Technical' forum and move all the discussion, speculation and stickies that clutter up the other ROM forums into here.
Create new forum for non-android development (like Backtrack or potential Linux releases).

I would suggest using [KERNEL] instead

godutch said:
i would suggest using [kernel] instead
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+1

Even if they decided to split they shouldn't be partial. Why is villain and darky rom in original development? They both look similar to stock to me with some mods.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

Personally, I like the idea of having a forum specifically for new ROMs. I can see the benefit of keeping modifications to ROMs in one forum and the real thing in another.

kirdroid said:
Even if they decided to split they shouldn't be partial. Why is villain and darky rom in original development? They both look similar to stock to me with some mods.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Click to collapse
Not stock kernel for starters on VR and that's the core of it .
jje

I like the idea of keeping photoshop roms separate from true developer roms like CM7.
Seriously, everyone who can use winzip and photoshop can make a rom and publish here, and from the looks of it, they do. It it were up to me, I'd actually not open a separate board, I'd delete them all.

As the creation of two separate dev boards was not motivated by any intention to make the forum easier for the user I'd have to say merge them back please. Seeing how it was motivated by greed and favoritism, indicated by the ROMs placement on one board or the other, I'd say screw this nazi maneuver, get your head out of your asses and realize you're all just tweakers and the ONLY REAL DEVELOPER IS SAMSUNG AND THE CM7 TEAM. So as the two forums are, only stock ROM and CM7 should be in the "real" dev forum. The rest of you take OTHERS work and tweak it (yes make it better etc etc, and we are all grateful for that). But come on you're not some super genius hacker dev here (and YES I appreciate your work and have donated but you are not "original developers"). As stated above this is about a "good ole' boys club", nothing else. Pathetic.

Endoran said:
As the creation of two separate dev boards was not motivated by any intention to make the forum easier for the user I'd have to say merge them back please. Seeing how it was motivated by greed and favoritism, indicated by the ROMs placement on one board or the other, I'd say screw this nazi maneuver, get your head out of your asses and realize you're all just tweakers and the ONLY REAL DEVELOPER IS SAMSUNG AND THE CM7 TEAM. So as the two forums are, only stock ROM and CM7 should be in the "real" dev forum. The rest of you take OTHERS work and tweak it (yes make it better etc etc, and we are all grateful for that). But come on you're not some super genius hacker dev here (and YES I appreciate your work and have donated but you are not "original developers"). As stated above this is about a "good ole' boys club", nothing else. Pathetic.
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Click to collapse
+1 nothing to add

+1... So many stock Samsung roms are still in original development forum. All this is nothing but favoritism.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

ROMs ROMs and more ROMs

Can someone tell me whats up with the 50+ ICS ROMs? It's a bit concerning that all this effort seems to be put into reproducing the same exact thing. I think the community would benefit from cooperation rather than competition... But I feel like I must be missing something here, I am new to the Nexus S but not to Android, is there something about the Nexus S community that I'm not getting?
Not complaining at all, or should I say, I'm not trying to complain. I also want to point out that I appreciate the developers who pour their time and effort into our devices and help us to get the maximum value out of them.
(Want to note, I am running AOSP's ICS build and loving it.)

joenathane said:
Can someone tell me whats up with the 50+ ICS ROMs? It's a bit concerning that all this effort seems to be put into reproducing the same exact thing. I think the community would benefit from cooperation rather than competition... But I feel like I must be missing something here, I am new to the Nexus S but not to Android, is there something about the Nexus S community that I'm not getting?
Not complaining at all, or should I say, I'm not trying to complain. I also want to point out that I appreciate the developers who pour their time and effort into our devices and help us to get the maximum value out of them.
(Want to note, I am running AOSP's ICS build and loving it.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey Man, I am much similar to where you are right now. I am not new to Nexus S or Android, but I feel that the abundance of ROMs is a good thing.
Having so many ROMs shows that the device is still running very strong: Something Android phones NEED to have behind them.
On the other hand I dislike it. To all the developers out there, I think you guys are amazing and genius no doubt. So take the following lightly...
What people don't like to see when browsing for a ROM is a dozen ROMs that are all identical. We need something new and fresh, hence why I like MIUI.
What I think should be done is as you said, have co-operation to make one master ROM because we have hundreds of people in the Nexus S community ready to help.
Speaking on my behalf I HATE SO MANY ROMs Because I simply cannot decide which is best because they are all similar in many ways, and I don't have time to try each one out as much as I want to. I do like having these ROMs but when it comes to choosing one its a big choice for me.
Any feedback on this?

I agree with a not so great abundance or ROMs. But most are not devs. They are simply "chefs" because they never actually developed anything. They just price and scrap things from source to mods. Cm9, ASOP, Peter A(because of his radios and kernal) are devs. We have lots of chefs.
I made brickROM just because of this situation. Its never been done, but the community wasn't ready for it yet.
Either way you can tell what rom has Is "real" I would say there's about only 5
And its sad for new Android users that come here get presided by a catching slogan and rob themselves from using a much better rom
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

What would you do if you don't like any of the existing ROMs? May be one is missing a feature you need, another just has too many features you don't want? The answer is simple -- create your own ROM, or modify an existing one... I think most devs just make the ROM they want to use as their daily driver and simply share it here (i.e. what's going on is not about competition, at least from my point of view)
It sounds good to gather all devs to create a ROM that suits everyone's needs, but IMHO it is nearly impossible to do that

suksit said:
What would you do if you don't like any of the existing ROMs? May be one is missing a feature you need, another just has too many features you don't want? The answer is simple -- create your own ROM, or modify an existing one... I think most devs just make the ROM they want to use as their daily driver and simply share it here (i.e. what's going on is not about competition, at least from my point of view)
It sounds good to gather all devs to create a ROM that suits everyone's needs, but IMHO it is nearly impossible to do that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But these futures found in everyone's ROM are just mods that you can flash. I flash 8 zips with every rom update but I know that a personal mix so I have no need to share it.
I'm capiale of changing my waklppaer
I flash custom font, and inverted apps with some tyranny Widgets and kernal. With gnex sounds. No reason to "cook" it. This is not development.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

Reserved
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

suksit said:
It sounds good to gather all devs to create a ROM that suits everyone's needs, but IMHO it is nearly impossible to do that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The CyanogenMod team pull it off quite well, all that is needed is a bug tracker and patch review system and boom! instant cooperation.
Maybe we have too many "chefs" in the kitchen

joenathane said:
The CyanogenMod team pull it off quite well, all that is needed is a bug tracker and patch review system and boom! instant cooperation.
Maybe we have too many "chefs" in the kitchen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am agree with you CyanogenMod need a bug tracker for CM9.

Here is an interesting fact in case anyone didn't know but MR. Cyanogen himself is rocking a Nexus S http://twitter.com/#!/cyanogen/status/153353404159234049
I wonder what build of ICS he is running, probably from his own private reserve...

joenathane said:
The CyanogenMod team pull it off quite well, all that is needed is a bug tracker and patch review system and boom! instant cooperation.
Maybe we have too many "chefs" in the kitchen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will be honest here and say that I personally dislike Cyanogen Mod for the most part. True that they are the gut best in performance, but if the only ROM I had was Cyanogen, I would not be very happy with it. I just think that for my favor, Cyanogen focus' so much on power, yet takes the look of the ROM as a after thought. The modified music on Cyanogen ROMs and the overall execution of his work lacks style and design, as if he first said "Make it fast, then maybe make it look ok" MIUI on the other hand has a great deal invested in how it looks which gives a very effective illusion of performance.
I think that the problem is we have so many chefs in that small kitchen and they have all made so many great dishes that sooner or later they will have eventually all used the same spices by some point, so we are beginning to lose that uniqueness in each one.

LGIQEXPO said:
I will be honest here and say that I personally dislike Cyanogen Mod for the most part. True that they are the gut best in performance, but if the only ROM I had was Cyanogen, I would not be very happy with it. I just think that for my favor, Cyanogen focus' so much on power, yet takes the look of the ROM as a after thought. The modified music on Cyanogen ROMs and the overall execution of his work lacks style and design, as if he first said "Make it fast, then maybe make it look ok" MIUI on the other hand has a great deal invested in how it looks which gives a very effective illusion of performance.
I think that the problem is we have so many chefs in that small kitchen and they have all made so many great dishes that sooner or later they will have eventually all used the same spices by some point, so we are beginning to lose that uniqueness in each one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only problem with that is Miui uses CyanogenMod code as a base(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIUI#Development) and CyanogenMod 7 has the theme chooser integrated for easy themeing(check the last three links in my signature to see some themes I created for it).
I don't think any mod team have contributed more to Android than the CyanogenMod Team, they certainly have my respect for that.
I agree about the spices, all these chefs cooking the same exact entree and now which on to choose...

joenathane said:
The only problem with that is Miui uses CyanogenMod code as a base(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIUI#Development)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a fact, not a problem.
Back on topic,
LGIQEXPO said:
I think that the problem is we have so many chefs in that small kitchen and they have all made so many great dishes that sooner or later they will have eventually all used the same spices by some point, so we are beginning to lose that uniqueness in each one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe at some point the community will decide which dishes live and which will die. I don't think people will keep posting ROMs if nobody uses it.

suksit said:
It's a fact, not a problem.
Back on topic,
I believe at some point the community will decide which dishes live and which will die. I don't think people will keep posting ROMs if nobody uses it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This^^ plus one thing, good all these chefs are popping up, that's showing a swell in number of people interested in development, in the end it can only have a positive outcome. Let em dev.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

suksit said:
It's a fact, not a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I obviously didn't mean problem in that sense, I meant it as in the 'problem' with his argument not the problem with CyanogenMod or Miui, I'm not sure how you interpreted it the way you did...
suksit said:
I believe at some point the community will decide which dishes live and which will die. I don't think people will keep posting ROMs if nobody uses it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what about the "noobs" who are instantly confronted with 20+ ICS ROMs and not a clue to which is worth its weight in salt?

joenathane said:
I obviously didn't mean problem in that sense, I meant it as in the 'problem' with his argument not the problem with CyanogenMod or Miui, I'm not sure how you interpreted it the way you did...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if I interpreted it wrong (English is not my native language anyway ) I thought you're trying to imply that "since MIUI is based on CM, @LGIQEXPO shouldn't compare them together" or "if you like MIUI, it means you already liked CM." Just wanted to say that it is not a problem if one wants to compare those two.
joenathane said:
what about the "noobs" who are instantly confronted with 20+ ICS ROMs and not a clue to which is worth its weight in salt?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Occasionally I'd see a thread titled "Help me decide which ROM is best" and the most popular answer would be "Why don't you try them all?" Yeah it would be madness to try all 20+ ROMs in a row, but I don't think anyone will do that.
Before flashing a ROM, I'd (suggest them to) read everything in the first few posts by the OP, and take a look at the screenshots (most of the time I can decide if I will like this ROM or not by these two factors) If those "noobs" are not too ignorant I believe they'll have a small list of ROM(s) they want to try (may be 4-5 choices, which is reasonable.)

I know it is on the same code, but I more so meant the apps that MIUI re-did for their ROMs, and how they offer a nice end user appeal.
What would be amazing is if all the known devs of these ROMs would just once come together to use their own strengths, and make a mast ROM out of it. MIUI Design and style, Cyanogen tweaks and speed, Peter A. stability, the overclocking everything! (I can't wait for that hahah )

you want fewer rom, get a ns4g. Although we only have a fraction of the roms found in the other forum, they all seem to have their own distinct character.

i was using an SII before this so i was a frequent on that part of xda.. they do have a separate page for original development and another one for development (being kitchen products)

Hey,
Just wanted to add my opinion in all of this that there are so many "equal" roms.
I as some mentioned on another thread am a chef to rom developing, and I don't mind.
Why I do this is because I don't have the time or knowledge to create Android source apps so I take what I think is the best from each rom and create my own.
For example for me CM9 is way to bloated with too many configurations and options I prefer a more real cleaner AOSP, something like Peter Alfonso (buglessBeast), but I do like the T9 dialer from CM9, so I cherry-pick that from CM9 and add it to a PA base.
Also for the notifications power menu I liked TeamKang one so I added that. That way I'm making my own custom rom to my liking and also I don't have to be flashing 20 zips every time there is a new update or wipe my phone
I just thought on sharing it just if some one has the same likes in roms I'm no asking for anything in return. Also I do this in my little free time.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App

mandaman2k said:
Hey,
Just wanted to add my opinion in all of this that there are so many "equal" roms.
I as some mentioned on another thread am a chef to rom developing, and I don't mind.
Why I do this is because I don't have the time or knowledge to create Android source apps so I take what I think is the best from each rom and create my own.
For example for me CM9 is way to bloated with too many configurations and options I prefer a more real cleaner AOSP, something like Peter Alfonso (buglessBeast), but I do like the T9 dialer from CM9, so I cherry-pick that from CM9 and add it to a PA base.
Also for the notifications power menu I liked TeamKang one so I added that. That way I'm making my own custom rom to my liking and also I don't have to be flashing 20 zips every time there is a new update or wipe my phone
I just thought on sharing it just if some one has the same likes in roms I'm no asking for anything in return. Also I do this in my little free time.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for adding your voice to the discourse.
If I was asked to offer an opinion on what you do, this is what I would say....
I think what you do is okay for you, but the problem is when you release it. There is a problem because as you state, you cherry pick features and/or "code" from other ROMs, and that can/will lead to issues for your user base. Lets take for example the T9 dialer, what happens when security bugs are found and fixed and optimizations make it into an update of the T9 dialer? Well that would mean you would need to update your ROM, but what if you're busy with your job or just with life and are too busy to get around to it? Well now your users of your ROM are without those security, bug fixes and optimizations, and multiply that by all the other pieces of the ROM that you cherry picked from other sources.
My point here to be clear is that due to the nature of your ROM, it will always lag in patches to security issues, bug fixes and optimizations and I think that is ultimately a disservice to your user base.
There is a value that you create, so I guess the question here is, does that value of bringing all these pieces into one convenient package outweigh the negatives of the lagging patches/fixes?
I mean no offense, and I hope this isn't taken as such, I just want to encourage some discourse on these things...

Some projects that in my opinion should be combind...

Hi, I'm Itzik I'm a newbie and yes, I'm a complete ***ing n00b!
But before each and everyone of you discard my opinion as complete rubbish, please ask yourself this:
Should I not adopt a reasonable and efficient perspective for it came to be from an inferior being? (I believe most of reasonable people will get my point)
Therefore I resume:
There are certain projects here on i9100 section or should I say developers that should combine their efforts into a more efficient working method, there are certain projects that are being developed & published here that in core are the same.
Those MODs & themes are being developed separately by different developers and get published by different names when in fact, they are all fragmented parts of a whole.
So many developers, so much work time and resources are being diverted between so many different projects that eventually each one of them separately when applied, gets the devices to a very similar point, except for one or two (crucial ,I might add) features that are made differently and therefore, only fragmenting more the already messy and confusing situation at hand.
By now I believe most of you know what I'm talking about, and I bet there more people here like me that would like to see those combined projects become a reality.
Now, I want to clarify Myself, that under no circumstances am I saying that the work of those people is not important, or not good enough nor heaven forbid unappreciated, what I'm trying to say, is that if those developers would work together and distribute the work between them, it could help saving them a lot of work and time and make the end results much better.
Lets start with our beloved _JKay_, he practically changed the rules of the game with his MOD, in fact the only thing I find lacking in JKay's work is a more productive and efficient theming capability, witch is exactly what the other developers I'm talking about make complete.
I'm talking about those projects:
[THEME]ICS DOMINATION v4.4*DESIRE(Progress NEW 41%)Odex/Deodex*LPS/3/4/7/8/9/D/F*Live by Vertumus
[MOD] ICS-styled SystemUI for KPA/LP2/LP6/LPB/LPH/LPQ/LP7/LP3/LPS by Sboulema
[MOD][ALL ROMS] ICS Style Reloaded -[ 28/05 Green online! - soon CM9 ]- by Crussader
Now, what we have here are 3 projects that focuses on one objective: a theme that would give SAMSUNG's Stock based ROM's the look and feel of an AOSP based ROM.
What differs between them is that Vertumus's approach was theming the entire ROM while Sboulema's & Crussader's approaches ware a bit less ambitious as they only themed and tweaked the TouchWiz UI overall a bit.
To be precise:
Vertumus re-designed the whole TouchWiz UI framework to match a AOSP based framework on which he dressed his theme.
Sboulema's method was (much like JKay's) to replace the original PNG files on the TouchWiz UI framework to his own files.
Crussader's MOD is based on Vertumus's re-designed UI framework and Sboulema's files + he added lidroid's MOD which is one feature of many in JKay's MOD.
End result is 3 different MODs that basically give the user the same thing +/- a feature or two...
Combining those 3 projects (and others similar) into one project and working with JKay to match his framework to adopt those themes will save JKay the time and hassle of creating themes for his mod + making those 3 themes into 1 will make it easier on the developers that makes them to update the themes to match future firmware updates.
So, what say you?

Good Luck!!

It's a nice thought and plenty of devs/themers do co-operate whilst some are amazing enough on their own (jkay, vert etc).. you'll always get a lot of duplicate efforts as some innovate and others replicate.. which isn't necessarily a bad thing, can be a stepping stone to something innovative in the end

good thought

Nonsense.
Devs have specific stuff they like to work on (normally their own projects/kernels/roms), why should they team up & work on projects we want ?
They're not at our beck & call despite what you seem to think.
Instead of making threads like this, why don't you learn to code/theme/whatever & then work on the things you've mentioned ?
P.S - The three examples you've mentioned, that's not development. That's winzipping/theming. There's a difference.

Posters forget its a free mods choice as to how why what and where .
They are not here to make life easier for you but to develop stuff and thankfully allow us to use it or not .
That was the ethos behind this developers forum originally sadly now just a give me give my i want i want forum.
jje

MistahBungle said:
Nonsense.
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Click to collapse
If you say so, you know best.
MistahBungle said:
Devs have specific stuff they like to work on (normally their own projects/kernels/roms), why should they team up & work on projects we want?
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Click to collapse
True, but if you can tell the difference, those are not project I want or we want, those are projects that are already being worked by them.
I only recommended them to to gather up similar projects so it could ease-up their work, and help them make more much needed free time for their own personal life, family, career whatever.. everyone could use a little extra time on their hands...
MistahBungle said:
They're not at our beck & call despite what you seem to think.
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Click to collapse
You seem to have gotten the wrong impression, please understand that this totally & clearly not what I meant.
MistahBungle said:
Instead of making threads like this, why don't you learn to code/theme/whatever & then work on the things you've mentioned?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Had my I.Q level allowed me to, there are a lot of things I would have done myself instead of turning to people for help, but we all work with what we got... JKay and others like him got the brain, I got a 'wider picture' vision and you got.. well whatever it is you've got there mate, whatever makes you keep the flow man...
MistahBungle said:
P.S - The three examples you've mentioned, that's not development. That's winzipping/theming. There's a difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Be that as it may, and call it as you wish, end result is that they all work on different projects that eventually leads to one point, one way or the other.. combining their efforts would only help increase efficiency...
Sorry if I offended anyone as it was completely and entirely not my intention!
good day fellows...

JJEgan said:
Posters forget its a free mods choice as to how why what and where .
They are not here to make life easier for you but to develop stuff and thankfully allow us to use it or not .
That was the ethos behind this developers forum originally sadly now just a give me give my i want i want forum.
jje
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would like to refer you to my answer to MistahBungle, that would shed a bit light on my intentions...

Thank you but my comments remain for a large majority of users noobs or not .
I did not add to my post >> whereas the idea of combining stuff may well be a vast improvement . Its been done before suggested before and devs go their own way .
If you read the dev posts then the usual is master dev makes xxxx and along comes a new dev who is learning and releases a modification on xxxx and so it goes on .
Your probable point that a better end result can be achieved by combining devs is not wrong . Yes in my view SGS2 development tends to be rather repetitive try finding a gold ICS rom .
jje
PS Welcome to the forum

Ambiguously named "Original Android Development" Forums

I'm not sure why the decision was made to start dividing up the Android Development Forums into regular and "Original" versions but I personally feel like it's pointless and confusing, especially for people who have been using this site for several years.
At the very least they should be named more appropriately, the word original makes it sound like you're talking about modified stock ROMs etc..., i.e. what was originally on the device.
The entire point of an open source community is that different people can work on different things. I guarantee you that some of the so called "unoriginal" ROMs out there had just as much work and time go into them as anyone else's. So this is basically a just a slap in the face to anyone who is new to this type of development, it certainly would not encourage anyone to continue contributing and learning.
The bottom line is that the only "Original" Android ROMs come from here: http://source.android.com , even Cyanogen MOD is still 90% someone else's code/work. Essentially the whole thing amounts to elitist segregation, aside from Linus Torvald there isn't a person alive today that has any right to thumb their nose at another open source developers efforts simply because they didn't think they were worthy of being recognized.

Cool story bro

Well IMO I think it makes sense that its called original because its all based on aosp which is the original Android
Sent from my SGH-T999 using xda premium

eggydrums said:
Well IMO I think it makes sense that its called original because its all based on aosp which is the original Android
Sent from my SGH-T999 using xda premium
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Actually it has nothing to do with that, there are many modified stock ROMs in the original forums. Unless of course you're referring to those as well in which case EVERYTHING is based on the AOSP. In either case I hope you voted for option two

Darkside Agent said:
Cool story bro
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Why didn't you vote?

Why would I?
Total waste of a thread...it will accomplish nothing and is just a rant from you
No one else has a problem with this, including people like myself who's work doesn't go in the original section
Plus this has been covered so many timez the Admins are bored hearing about it
Find something else to concentrate on, this is highly irrelevant

I agree with the OP.
Having two forums for the development of Android for one device makes no sense.
At the very least, a sticky at the top of every "original" forum needs to interpret why the forum is different to the standard development forum.
Sent from my GT-I9305 using xda premium

It seems that every time I've come here in the last few months everything is different. I understand wanting to 'spice it up' or 'make it organized'...but XDA was pretty much unchanged for a very long time, and now all these changes are more frustrating than helpful. In the end, I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference.
Let it be said that the first time I read 'original android development'...I thought of apps that were developed 100% by a dev...and NOT based on 'original android'.

I'm going to lock this up and explain the differences of development and original development.
Plain development: those are ROMs that are based off stock based ROMs or ROMs like cm with some apps or minor tweaks tossed in. Nothing that is brand new or has revolutionary features in. Team venom ViperS sense ROM is normal development if that ROM is based on a stock based sense ROM. Now if they brought that rom to a Samsung devices or non HTC phine, then its original.
Original development: any ROM that is compiled from source and has revolutionary features in it. Examples cyanogenmod, AOKP,PAC man, Paranoid Android, BAKED,Slim Bean etc. Those are all examples of original development. If someone downloads or compiles a source based ROM. Then adds their tweaks apps etc,that would be normal development. Basically original development is cutting edge stuff.