Database Users

Apple Suing HTC over 20 patents

If you haven't heard of it already, Apple has slapped HTC with a lawsuit today for violating ~20 patents.
They're trying for a permanent injunction to disallow any future HTC handset imports into the US.
Wow. Seems like someone's scared. What do you guys think about this?
If this keeps me from getting my Supersonic, so help me...
http://androidandme.com/2010/03/news/rotten-apple-htc-sued-over-20-patents/
Whoops, just saw a similar post a few below mine...I skimmed at first and didn't see anything...mods please delete this

what did we expect steve jobs is a douche... apple is scared of android and its biggest phone producer of android devices. This is why I hate apple, they reinvented the game and now are doing what they hate microsoft for. Tryin to control the market and make **** stagnant an dull

I posted this same response on SprintUsers but I'm so disgusted with this I couldn't help but copy and paste it here.
"How very pathetic.
The only Apple product I have ever bought was my girlfriends iPod.
It's not enough that they have sold more phones than anyone now they want to monopolize the market?
I hated having no option but to install itunes just to be able to use her ipod. Just sad.
Apple is going on my boycott list along with McDonald's, WalMart, and a few others.
Whether they win or lose this suit it's official; I will NEVER purchase another product made by Apple, ever."

Just a heads up, the mods already locked one topic about this in this forum as another topic about it existed elsewhere:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=640835

**** Apple.
They are looking for a permanent injuction, which could affect future sales of phones here.
I am so sick of Apple.
Check this
http://gizmodo.com/5483914/steve-jobs-1996-good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal
The guy is a ****ing prick.
I am selling my macbook and ipod as soon as I find decent alternatives.
I wish Google OS was polished and out.

Apple got it's paradigm to replace MSDOS from Xerox, Google it.
How quickly they forget, if it wasn't for the gift from Xerox, apple wouldn't be.
So it seems a new industry of bootlegged / home brew phones could be around the corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU <----- Steve Jobs is a cockbite.
I don't understand why they're going after HTC and none of the 25 or so other companies doing the exact same thing.

gthing said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU <----- Steve Jobs is a cockbite.
I don't understand why they're going after HTC and none of the 25 or so other companies doing the exact same thing.
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Cause apple invented touchscreens, downloading apps, muti-touch....lol.

apple is salty because they became a victim of their own success...and now they are nervous that everyone is going to surpass them...which google will

gthing said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU <----- Steve Jobs is a cockbite.
I don't understand why they're going after HTC and none of the 25 or so other companies doing the exact same thing.
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HTC is the big money in the Android game right now, they'll sue Moto next. Apple wants to ride the Android train, but Apple users just typically aren't smart enough for a device smarter than them.

Konikub said:
Cause apple invented touchscreens, downloading apps, muti-touch....lol.
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Wow....guess I don't know as much about technology as I thought. Cause I was downloading applications on Windows 3.11 with 28.8 kb/s internet connection back in 93 or so....Didn't know apple invented that. Guess I need to start paying more attention. And I thought I was playing video poker on touchscreens and signing for packages on a touch-pad quite a while back too. Apple kicks ass, inventing all this **** and keeping it on the DL.

this is fun. apple has filed anything and everything under patents. people wonder why no one can beat the iphone. a device that cant even multitask. my moto razr did better than the iphone. the problem is that the fine line between profit and loss is extremely small when you get sued and knowing how apple goes about things they will take htc for the profit they earned. i have faith though. htc has some very very talented people including lawyers. they didnt implement the technology that apple patented without knowledge of how to beat it.
thats my .02 cents.

Avalaunchmods said:
this is fun. apple has filed anything and everything under patents. people wonder why no one can beat the iphone. a device that cant even multitask. my moto razr did better than the iphone. the problem is that the fine line between profit and loss is extremely small when you get sued and knowing how apple goes about things they will take htc for the profit they earned. i have faith though. htc has some very very talented people including lawyers. they didnt implement the technology that apple patented without knowledge of how to beat it.
thats my .02 cents.
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they didnt implement the technology that apple patented without knowledge of how to beat it.
TRUE. i was thinking the same thing..

yea apple is feeling the pressure from google and HTC so they are going to go after HTC ... HA
apple taking on htc and nokia is a mistake i hope the judge ***** slaps apple

The stupidity of Apple never ceases to amaze me. Palm had touch screen technology LONG before Apple, yet you don't see Palm crying like little *****es. I hope Nokia, MS, Google, Palm, and Cisco all take turns telling Steve Jobs to STFU and then hopefully his turtleneck would strangle him for us.
Wishful thinking.

haha yea hopefully the judges all had bad experiences with iphones cauwse then they will hop in the STFU setve line

pseudoremora said:
The stupidity of Apple never ceases to amaze me. Palm had touch screen technology LONG before Apple, yet you don't see Palm crying like little *****es. I hope Nokia, MS, Google, Palm, and Cisco all take turns telling Steve Jobs to STFU and then hopefully his turtleneck would strangle him for us.
Wishful thinking.
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OMG Does he ever change clothes! lol One can only hope that that stupid looking turtleneck will get wrapped up tight in his sleep one night ( as he tosses and turns, loosing sleep because Android is kicking his beloved iphones ass) and choke him to death.

im suprised they didnt go for palm first...cause didnt a bunch of apple devs go to palm a couple years back?

I wouldn't call it technology more like. features

BrianDigital said:
I wouldn't call it technology more like. features
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well according to patents, "multitouch"
"A computer-implemented method for use in conjunction with a computing device with a touch screen display comprises: detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display, applying one or more heuristics to the one or more finger contacts to determine a command for the device, and processing the command. The one or more heuristics comprise: a heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a one-dimensional vertical screen scrolling command, a heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a two-dimensional screen translation command, and a heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a command to transition from displaying a respective item in a set of items to displaying a next item in the set of items."
which is a technology for some reason. funny as hell that steve jobs is listed as one of the inventors. i think htc beat this lawsuit by only implementing while you perform an action and as you see that is not in the patent. so the only time multitouch is used is when it detects two fingers moving away or towards one another which is not a command.
gotta love America

Samsung Sues Apple

Looks like Samsung is ready to return the favor:
Washington Post Article

Karma is a *****
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

I'm not so sure Apple should have gone after them like that. Sammy has the most patents in the US next to IBM and a lot of those are cell phone patents. Why was Apple so intent on biting the hand that feeds them. Yes, I see the similarities in the phone and somewhat in the UI but not to the extent of suing them the amount of product that was purchased from Sammy.

We all knew this was to come... and to someone who said Samsung was one of the most patent-maker companies... thanks for the info, i really didn't know that.
Anyways, Apple is sure to lose this, because Samsung filed like 6 back at them, from like 4 countries lol

Yup Like I said in a previous posting, This is nuisance suing because you have no other way to slow the competition down from running you over. and for Samsung, this is just a speed bump. Apple is going to have A LOT of market share loss over the next 2 years, and suing will not change that..........Watch how Apple will come out and play the victim........ LoL they are such putz's

oka1 said:
Yup Like I said in a previous posting, This is nuisance suing because you have no other way to slow the competition down from running you over. and for Samsung, this is just a speed bump. Apple is going to have A LOT of market share loss over the next 2 years, and suing will not change that..........Watch how Apple will come out and play the victim........ LoL they are such putz's
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What is incredible is how a multitouch patent was given to apple,when multitouch screen dates back to the early 80's and was the university of Toronto who first made one.
Even better Apple doesn't make touch screen or any kind of LCD they are not manufacturers of hardware they buy it.
I think they are mistaken by the fact that they were the first to do it on a cellphone,but that doesn't mean the patent is their.
Nintendo did rumble on consoles before any one else did,but the patent wasn't theirs,in fact Sony and MS pay money to a company know for patent infringement for rumble on controllers even that no other company before Nintendo had done that.
I think is the whole flawed system of patent which allow for this kind of craps,i may as well patent taking photos of unknown planets out side this world.
And Samsung fire back with hey we have the patent to connect phones to PC by USB..haha
Apple suck so much i don't know how people put up with their crap.

eltormo you are correct but application patents are what companies use to create useless lawsuits. And, if you have alot of money you can afford to do this. The fact that apple sued microsoft for the use of windows or Graphic User Interface was also a joke. This was invented by Stanford Univ. for their teachers.....go figure

I hope sammy takes a big bite out of that apple.

apple is going down

Plus one jazzy!

You're all correct. Apple is only doing this because of how Android and Samsung are doing so well. Just a means to slow the competition.
Its just funny to me to Steve Jobs shake in his boots. He thought apple was unstoppable. He's wrong. Just like how he said flash was "old technology " and didn't want it on his phones. Then he realized he was dumb and went crawling to adobe to get flash working on his OS. LOL
He's a tool. And his business strategy is weal now. Especially cuz of Android. I personally know probably around 15 people who were isheep. Once they seen my phone they all switched to Android
Sent from my badass Vibrant

eminembdg said:
You're all correct. Apple is only doing this because of how Android and Samsung are doing so well. Just a means to slow the competition.
Its just funny to me to Steve Jobs shake in his boots. He thought apple was unstoppable. He's wrong. Just like how he said flash was "old technology " and didn't want it on his phones. Then he realized he was dumb and went crawling to adobe to get flash working on his OS. LOL
He's a tool. And his business strategy is weal now. Especially cuz of Android. I personally know probably around 15 people who were isheep. Once they seen my phone they all switched to Android
Sent from my badass Vibrant
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this thread is old.
Samsung and Apple according to yesterdays Engadet article are solving the sueing issue OUT of court.

Samsung vs. Apple vs. Innovation

Well, things are not looking very good for Samsung right at the moment. A judge in Germany has declared that until this whole IP lawsuit by Apple is settled, Samsung cannot sell their new Galaxy Tab 10.1 anywhere in the EU except for the Netherlands. A similar ruling in Australia previously blocked sales down under as well.
Many pundits are saying they expect this to be the first falling rocks of a judicial landslide in Apple's favor that will savage Samsung's reputation as a rising player in the mobile space and force them to either withdraw most of the Galaxy line of products from sale or pay a massive sum to Apple...or possibly both.
This decision and the mindset behind it pisses me off. Remember that a lie unchallenged becomes the truth, and may then be used to support further lies. The lies that have become truth amongst the digital intelligentsia due to being unchallenged (or at least by having the challenges shouted down too often) are that "Apple invented the GUI" (not true, that was Xerox), that "Apple invented the Smartphone" (not true, that was probably Palm with the Treo or Nokia) and that "Apple invented using Apps" (not true, I had some great Apps on my PocketPC and my Treo both, only they were still called Programs). You can read those same fables almost every day, with the word "invented" being used in place of the more honest terms "popularized" or "helped develop", on almost all tech blogs and newspapers on the net.
Those fables are now being used to support the far broader fable that "Apple invented mobile computing" which to a degree was upheld by this German judge when he supported Apple's claim that any flat rectangle with a large touch screen is essential stolen from Cupertino. This sort of thinking, for all kinds of reasons, is just plain wrong.
So at first I fumed...but then I thought it all through again, and saw that the worst case scenario may not be so bad after all, and that to a degree Samsung brought it on themselves. Are Galaxy products similar to Apple iOS devices? Sure, especially the TouchWiz GUI. Faced with a market that clearly loved the way the iPhone looked and operated, Samsung opted to give them a slightly tweaked version of what they loved rather then try to convince them to try something new. It is tough to blame them...look at Microsoft. All critics agreed that Windows Phone 7 was fresh and innovative and a good start that would improve rapidly...and consumers STILL stayed away in droves. MS is staying the course and betting that eventually WP7 will catch on, but that takes a company willing to burn an enormous amount of money and patience...which most companies just can't do the way that Redmond can.
Therefore Samsung pandered to the public's current tastes and may now pay the price for that....but we as users may see something good come out of this.
Am I the only one that is bored to tears by the iOS interface? Can't we move beyond the minimalist Apple design concept that seems to inspire almost every phone and tablet available today? Perhaps if the courts side with Apple in this lawsuit, it will force Samsung and other tech companies to innovate again, to take risks on new form factors and different ways to present content and features, to go beyond the big rectangle with the large touchscreen and the app icons. If products are not allowed to look like an iPhone anymore, what WILL new products look like? I have no idea...and I like that.
People have spent a lot of time looking for an iPhone/iPad killer...but for a product to truly compete with those heavyweights it has to first of all be DIFFERENT from them. Experience has shown that if you try to beat Steve Jobs at his own game, you will lose and just be another snide jab in his next keynote. For a product to succeed it first has to stand out in both form and function. Win or lose, hopefully this lawsuit will make that clear to Samsung....or somebody.
EDIT: Here is an interesting note...Samsung is not alone in being a target for Apple's ire. They are also suing Motorola in Europe over the design of the Xoom. COuld a similar injunction be seen soon that will end Xoom sales in Europe? Read the details at http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/apple-is-also-suing-motorola-in-europe.html

I will hope apple lose in their anti competitive behavior. If apple win this battle, there will be more ridiculous court case eg, Toshiba will sue apple for the 'look and feel' like a computer, IBM will sue cos having the word 'OS' , Ford will sue every car with four wheels, MS will sue any system for having a boot up screen... I want my galaxy tab 8.9 now!!!!
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don't wanna be a smartshitter but Ford didn't invent the car my friend^^
That was Mr Daimler from Germany who build the "first" car and Mr Benz who build the first "modern" car years before Ford...and who knows what these nasty germans will do^^
greetz

MasterJam882 said:
don't wanna be a smartshitter but Ford didn't invent the car my friend^^
That was Mr Benz from Germany...and who knows what these nasty germans will do^^
greetz
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True, but Ford spent a lot of time and newsprint saying that Ford invented the "mass produced" car, eventually dropping the mass produced part. Now if you ask people what the first car was, a sizable majority (especially in the US) will say the Model T Ford. Just like most people now would say that Apple invented the Tablet.

rschenck did you have a look at the actual community design in question? for me it looks like if this lawsuite is a win for apple, nobody else will be allowed to actually built tablets anymore... so i guess this will just hold back the tab 10.1 for a while on european market, but not stop samsung at all...
edit: and this has solely to do with the case design, nothing about the interface there...

rschenck, an excellent post about a very important subject. I agree that this could be a reason for Samsung and others to boost innovation and creativity.
In general, it seems just madness to me that a company like Apple is able to prevent others using similar form factor. I suppose the German judge is not to blame, he's just doing his job (well I didn't really check if he had a choice. I guess it's the ones that make the legislation who would need to be educated.
Edit:
Btw how likely is it that a person buying a phone accidentally gets a Samsung because he/she thinks it's an iPhone? Come on, tell me people aren't that stupid. Oh well, I guess there must be fair amount of those who can't read, shopping for smartphones. But still, there's the picture of an apple...
I wonder if Apple has thought of suing apple farmers for growing products that resemble their logo. Just think about it: the poor customer thinks he's getting an iPhone and when he gets home he finds out he bought a fruit.

FadeFx said:
rschenck did you have a look at the actual community design in question? for me it looks like if this lawsuite is a win for apple, nobody else will be allowed to actually built tablets anymore... so i guess this will just hold back the tab 10.1 for a while on european market, but not stop samsung at all...
edit: and this has solely to do with the case design, nothing about the interface there...
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I am not sure of your point in the first paragraph, but based on what I think you are saying I agree that if Apple wins all it is asking for, that other companies will need to look to radical new designs and Google may need to relax their hardware restrictions to a great degree to allow companies to compete.
The German decision just hinges on the form factor of the Galaxy Tab 10.1, but the GUI and TouchWiz interface play a big part in the overall legal argument.
Here is a good breakdown of the lawsuit and what Apple is claiming...http://thisismynext.com/2011/04/19/apple-sues-samsung-analysis/

Still a bit silly on apple, they think they own the form factor of a tablet. Just like Sony decided they own the invention of the TV screen. The 10.1 is nothing like the ipad, for a start it's 16:4 ratio whether other is 4:3, how on earth one can be mistaken a square for a rectangle. I hope the Beatles start suing apple for the name
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okpc said:
I hope the Beatles start suing apple for the name
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Been there done that....Jobs won.

Ok, I hope LG will sued apple for using 'touch' as an interface.
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See my edit above...Motorola joins the fray as well.

Last year I wanted to buy a new smartphone, and as an Apple fanboy I only thought about buying an iPhone. Unfortunately in my country when the iPhone 4 was launched it costed around €650 which was too expensive for my wallet. Then I met the Galaxy S, which was basically kind of an iPhone rip-off but was €250 cheaper. I bought the Galaxy S and today it's still my phone.
So yes, in the end, if the i9000 didn't exist I guess I would have probably ended up buying the iPhone, and Apple could easily argue that they lost at least one customer because the TouchWiz UI and overall design looks pretty much like the iPhone.
I know there's more people in the world like me, I know how many times non tech savvy people asked me if I had bought an iPhone when they saw my Samsung phone for the first time... so in the end we must admit that Apple has a point
The iPhone has a very strong product image among the consumer and Samsung capitalized on that!

Look at it like this, apple sucks! The mac is a pc! Windows stomped apple for years and still does. Jobs never could get it right. Microsoft wins because they have one, not many ideas. The pc was made to be universal, the outside can be anything you or I want it to be. Ios and android are nothing alike. All apple is concerns about is the fact people are tired of being told what they can do with the crapple they bought! That's why I switched. When jobs dies, see what happens! Apple will rape the ios trying to get back to the top! Can I use words instead of icons to open an app or display the weather, not on crapple! Can a maxi pad hook to a server to fix an issue, nope! It's an over sized ipod! Now samsung screwed themselves with the 10.1! Look at it, one cable that looks just like apples, one port, the damn cheap plastic, it wreaks of copy cat! Apple couldn't patent the use of "market" cause then the flea market and grocery market would eat their lunch! Apple is losing the war and they know it! All they are doing is slowing their eventual death! I say we invent a toy and call it the iplug! Of course as soon as apple hears it, they will sue. An apple with the letter I on top! Only problem apple is unaware that it's an adult toy! How pathetic would they look?
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@rschenk
Nice to take a break from flashing and bricking and then puffing and panting.........
Firstly,their TAB went on sale in India and Australia today I believe.
I reckon the biggest market for Samsung is all-Asia inclusive of big brother China where Apple will not be able to stop anything!In fact,Chinese stores started selling 'Hi-phone 5' today,for virtually a song.
Yes,where these firms make a mistake is the 'Me-too' attitude like you mentioned in the case of the GUI viz TOUCHWIZ in the case of Samsung and of course the form factor.
All said and done,it's 'dog eat dog' out there with android itself being under very severe attack from Apple/Microsoft.The biggest gainer eventually would be the customers with some real differentiating possibilities beyond the mere price of these expensive gadgets!
ps---really enjoyed your post!

i want to sue steve jobs because he looks like someone i know

Great thread ! i totally agree with you on this, I do like the Samsung android devices, BUT they do look a lot like the iphone, just like the MIUI rom (which im using lol)
It would be great if Samsung made massive changes to their devices, and something 10 x better than iOS which to be honest.... is nice..
Who knows whats going to happen, maybe its just bullying on a mass scale, Maybe its for the best... But no matter what happens, I will never own an iphone, I will go back to a nokia 6210 if i have too.
I dont rape iphone users, I havent got the balls (pun intended!) But for me, i hate apple, i hate the restrictions, the forcing of using itunes only. and all the other **** they make you do.
I want a phone that i can suit to my needs, and do what i want to it. And thats why i am an android user. Its not Samsung that i like.... its android, so as long as android continues... i couldnt give a **** !!

To be honest,
I love the quality of Samsung products, and this made me kinda fan-boy of them. Because their quality is superb. If there was a better company I would switch but there is not. (Depending on the device of course, canon makes better reflex camera, no doubt, just as example).
You can look at this as a step to the future because companies now might improve their product designs, but we are talking about tablets. What do you think tablets look like? I don't see tablets in a pyramid case... honestly, for me it is just a huge "what the f*ck".
Thumbs down for Apple and the Judge who is a complete retard.
Regards

There's why our xoom has the funny crap way of being used. Microsoft did it! Let's all mass email Microsoft and tell 'em we are switching to Mac and ios! See what happens to apple. I am sick of buying devices and being told I can't do what I want with it! Next they will stop selling printing paper cuz it's white and rectangled! Then there's the saying the alphabet....abcdefghjklmnopqrstuvxyz! Apple didn't invent crap! They stole most of everything they make! I say we start a petition to stop apple's lawsuits. Or we can file a class action against apple for being idiots! And another thing! Why do Mac's work with windows? Oh yeah apple's CPU sucked!!!!!
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App

Well, it's a company's job to make money to its shareholders. Can we really blame Apple alone for using methods like this? After all it seems that (legally) Apple has a case here so it's worth trying. Imo the question is should there be patent and IP laws that allow patenting a rectangular shape

Intelligent thinking. Very well written too. You deserve a pat on shoulder.

Steve Jobs Resigns as Apple CEO

Wow, big announcement.
http://allthingsd.com/20110824/steve-jobs-resigns-as-ceo-of-apple/#bXpulseX
And the reaction in the stock market:
Apple Stock Falls After Steve Jobs Announces Departure
http://allthingsd.com/20110824/apple-stock-falls-after-jobs-announcement/#bXpulseX
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App

Hope he is not too bad off. Maybe the apple was poisoned
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armychris28210 said:
Hope he is not too bad off. Maybe the apple was poisoned
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lol
ill health though - bad times.

Cannot really say that I came as a surprise, considering his health problems. I just find it interesting, that he is doing it so close to the new Iphone 5 release. I already read the first Android Fanboy "He is just afraid, cause the new Crapple cannot compete with Android" and all that ****. Fanboys, you have to hate them, on either side.

They have too many smart people at Apple to fail. He'll still be affiliated with Apple so it's not that serious.

gqstatus0685 said:
They have too many smart people at Apple to fail. He'll still be affiliated with Apple so it's not that serious.
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I agree but it only takes one moron as a leasder to screw it up. I'm not saying Tim Cook will.
I am also surprised he made this move so close to the iPhone 5 launch he must be in much worse shape then he has let on.
I don't wish anything bad on anyone so lets hope he doesn't deteriorate any further.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App

If Jobs were to leave--and with his health, it's when, not if--then this is the perfect time. He is at the peak of his success, and it's best to go out when you're on top.
It's good for the company as well. The iPhone5 will likely be another success, as will the eventual iPad3. These allow Cook to have an easy break-in period, not that he needs any. Impact on investor sentiment (company valuation) will be minimal.
Conceptually, I think Jobs has done all he can for Apple, even assuming he has another 5 years left in him. He has pioneered mobile computing, first with the iPhone, then with the iPad. These markets will take time to refine and mature, eg integration of desktop + mobile computing, and the next conceptual "big hit" won't be along for a while. For now, what's needed is execution, and Cook has been the operations guy for most of Jobs' second tenure. Apple can't do better even if Jobs were still in charge. And he still is, sort of. He's the chairman.
Apple won't be as dominant in mobile as it is today. The competition are getting better, and they have nowhere to go but up. Android already has more share in smartphones, and its open-source nature means adoption rate can only increase.
On tablets, price competition will drive non-iPad share. We saw an (extreme) example with the TouchPad fire sale. I see Android tabs selling well at the magic $300 mark. And unless Microsoft lays an egg with Win8, it'll still be the default upgrade path for the vast majority of the computing world as mobile becomes an extension of the desktop. I subscribe to that vision, that mobile devices can be as productive as desktops, not just for consuming media.

Many say that Cook is going to have an easy time to start off as Apple is at its peak right now....however, there is an important paradigm shift in Apple where they're trying to move iTunes to the cloud.
This is a tremendously difficult job and I thought Apple should have started on it long ago...now they are way behind Google in this aspect. And I don't see what they're proposing to be better than what Google is already offering to its user base.
Apple is going to have a tough time fighting back Android in the smart phone space if they don't do cloud right.

I'm no Apple FanBoy but Steve Jobs made Apple what it is today. I remember him dragging Apple out of the trash not too long ago. The man was genius.

And all of this is related to Xoom how?

dubie76 said:
And all of this is related to Xoom how?
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It's the general discussion forum, its major Tech related news, and its something to talk about?
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>however, there is an important paradigm shift in Apple where they're trying to move iTunes to the cloud.
Jobs' forte is in the physical product. His execution of online services was less than stellar, to wit, the defunct Mac.com and now MobileMe.com. His heavy-handed dealings with the various content owners only succeeded by dint of the success of Apple's hardware products. He's not a good negotiator--an "i" guy, not a "we" guy (excuse the pun).
The more pertinent question is how much of Apple's mystique is tied to Jobs' personality. Cook isn't a charismatic guy, nor is he a salesman. Then again, it's not like Jobs is dead. He's still around to rally the troops if needed.
For the near term, the way forward for Apple is clear: broadening its mobile product lines to compete in lower-priced tiers. Rumors of a cheaper iPhone abound, and despite what Jobs said, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple intros different iPad sizes (or integrate the iPod Touch into the iPad family) next year.
Plenty of opportunities for the Mac lines as well. MS is doing a crash course with Win8 into mobile because it has to, but Apple is going the same route. Lion has already taken the first step to integration with iOS.
>And all of this is related to Xoom how?
Relax, it's a worthwhile topic. It's not like this forum is overflowing with discussions that it can't handle a few extraneous threads.

without iPhone/iPad would we even have this discussion in the Xoom forum?
Some say the iWhatever really started the massive push into smartphones... and thus Android as something to compete on the same level

Lothaen said:
without iPhone/iPad would we even have this discussion in the Xoom forum?
Some say the iWhatever really started the massive push into smartphones... and thus Android as something to compete on the same level
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PalmOS and Blackberry (more Blackberry than Palm) started the massive push into smartphones. Even a year after the iPhone came out, I still heard "hit me up on BBM" more than "check out my iPhone" (that being the idiom of owning an iPhone at the time). I still hear people say "hit me up on BBM" and most of the active duty desk jockeys in the military are issued Blackberries. I know more people who own them than iPhones. So I refuse to give Apple credit for making smartphones popular. They were already popular, Apple just did it differently and they were given way too much credit for it.
I will give the evolution of tablets to Apple all day and night. The best we had in that area were a couple of failed projects from Microsoft about a decade ago and the dead technology known as "PDA". Then the iPad came out and made people want to stop sucking at making them. Had the iPad not been so ridiculously good and popular, the motivation to compete with it would never have existed and we would not have a Xoom.
So no, if Apple hadn't made the iPad, we would not be having this discussion on these Xoom forums and thus, the guy who made tablets popular stepping down from his chair on top of Apple land actually does matter to the Xoom. Logic FTW.
Personally, I'm happy that Steve Jobs is stepping down. I'm hoping that since his vehemence and enthusiasm toward selling the product is leaving the offices that Apple will cool down all these lawsuits. Perhaps attempt to compete more instead of "sue the guys doing better". Even if Android has overtaken iOS as the most used mobile OS, remember that Blackberry took it like a man when Apple did it to them.
Hope he gets better though. Even though I don't like the guy or his product whatsoever, wishing ill of people is just wrong.

Apple is going to rape Job's baby! They will put flash on all of their products!
Sent from my ADR6400L using xda premium

AbsolutZeroGI said:
PalmOS and Blackberry (more Blackberry than Palm) started the massive push into smartphones. Even a year after the iPhone came out, I still heard "hit me up on BBM" more than "check out my iPhone" (that being the idiom of owning an iPhone at the time). I still hear people say "hit me up on BBM" and most of the active duty desk jockeys in the military are issued Blackberries. I know more people who own them than iPhones. So I refuse to give Apple credit for making smartphones popular. They were already popular, Apple just did it differently and they were given way too much credit for it.
I will give the evolution of tablets to Apple all day and night. The best we had in that area were a couple of failed projects from Microsoft about a decade ago and the dead technology known as "PDA". Then the iPad came out and made people want to stop sucking at making them. Had the iPad not been so ridiculously good and popular, the motivation to compete with it would never have existed and we would not have a Xoom.
So no, if Apple hadn't made the iPad, we would not be having this discussion on these Xoom forums and thus, the guy who made tablets popular stepping down from his chair on top of Apple land actually does matter to the Xoom. Logic FTW.
Personally, I'm happy that Steve Jobs is stepping down. I'm hoping that since his vehemence and enthusiasm toward selling the product is leaving the offices that Apple will cool down all these lawsuits. Perhaps attempt to compete more instead of "sue the guys doing better". Even if Android has overtaken iOS as the most used mobile OS, remember that Blackberry took it like a man when Apple did it to them.
Hope he gets better though. Even though I don't like the guy or his product whatsoever, wishing ill of people is just wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude! Nice logical thinking! I have never liked Apple myself and never will. I'm Windows, not Mac... and I'm Android, not iOS. I do agree that Apple should not get any credit for "creating" the smartphone, if you will. The Blackberry name and RIM has been around for what... 10+ years now? I do believe that RIM is the winner there, not Apple. Blackberries were always on a higher tech level versus the basic phones or the later flip phones of their time before the iPhone came out. Why? Because a Blackberry is a business related phone that needs to do more than a basic phone, thus making it smarter than the average phone. Aha! A smartphone you say? Indeed!
You mentioned lawsuits... who remembers Apple suing the crap out of Microsoft in the 80's? Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were in a major war at the time for the big computer OS. Apple cried a lot and sued Microsoft a whole lot because they said that Windows was a Mac ripoff and that they had stolen everything that they had ever created... you know, normal Apple drama. Just look at Apple's roots... rotten to the core since the 1980's.
But, seriously... Apple has been this way since the dawn of time, and they will not ever change as long as Steve Jobs is still affiliated with the company name in some way, shape, or form. So, you can expect Apple to continue suing other companies because they think that they were the original company to create the cell phone, even though the cell phone has been around for how many years now? In reality, that's pretty much what they are stating as fact when it comes down to it. They say: Before the iPhone, there were no phones. How funny is that?
An interesting fact: "The first hand-held mobile phone was demonstrated by Dr. Martin Cooper of Motorola in 1973." He is the real mobile phone inventor. Thank him for the cell phone revolution, not Apple! Without him, we would not have any kind of cell phone to use at all. Think about that one while you sleep. A world without the cell phone. ^^
Oh yeah... I may not like Apple or Steve Jobs in the least bit, but you are correct when you say that you should not wish ill of one. That really is just wrong if a person were to do something like that.

Can't we all just agree that Al Gore invented the internet and move on?

diablo2224 said:
An interesting fact: "The first hand-held mobile phone was demonstrated by Dr. Martin Cooper of Motorola in 1973." He is the real mobile phone inventor. Thank him for the cell phone revolution, not Apple! Without him, we would not have any kind of cell phone to use at all. Think about that one while you sleep. A world without the cell phone. ^^
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and who pwns Moto?

Steve Jobs says: iQuit

Source: Huffington Post
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As Reuters reports and Apple has confirmed, Apple CEO Steve Jobs is stepping down from his leadership position. Apple's Board of Directors has named Tim Cook the company's new CEO. Jobs has been elected Chairman of the Board.
"I have made some of the best friends of my life at Apple, and I thank you all for the many years of being able to work alongside you," Jobs wrote in his resignation letter.
Below is Apple's official press release on the announcement (via Business Wire):
Apple’s Board of Directors today announced that Steve Jobs has resigned as Chief Executive Officer, and the Board has named Tim Cook, previously Apple’s Chief Operating Officer, as the company’s new CEO. Jobs has been elected Chairman of the Board and Cook will join the Board, effective immediately.
“Steve’s extraordinary vision and leadership saved Apple and guided it to its position as the world’s most innovative and valuable technology company,” said Art Levinson, Chairman of Genentech, on behalf of Apple's Board. “Steve has made countless contributions to Apple’s success, and he has attracted and inspired Apple’s immensely creative employees and world class executive team. In his new role as Chairman of the Board, Steve will continue to serve Apple with his unique insights, creativity and inspiration.”
“The Board has complete confidence that Tim is the right person to be our next CEO,” added Levinson. “Tim’s 13 years of service to Apple have been marked by outstanding performance, and he has demonstrated remarkable talent and sound judgment in everything he does.”
Jobs submitted his resignation to the Board today and strongly recommended that the Board implement its succession plan and name Tim Cook as CEO.
As COO, Cook was previously responsible for all of the company’s worldwide sales and operations, including end-to-end management of Apple’s supply chain, sales activities, and service and support in all markets and countries. He also headed Apple’s Macintosh division and played a key role in the continued development of strategic reseller and supplier relationships, ensuring flexibility in response to an increasingly demanding marketplace.
Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple has reinvented the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently introduced iPad 2 which is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices.
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Click to collapse
The Wall Street Journal published a letter from Steve Jobs announcing his resignation:
PRESS RELEASE: Letter from Steve Jobs
August 24, 2011–To the Apple Board of Directors and the Apple Community:
I have always said if there ever came a day when I could no longer meet my duties and expectations as Apple’s CEO, I would be the first to let you know. Unfortunately, that day has come.
I hereby resign as CEO of Apple. I would like to serve, if the Board sees fit, as Chairman of the Board, director and Apple employee.
As far as my successor goes, I strongly recommend that we execute our succession plan and name Tim Cook as CEO of Apple.
I believe Apple’s brightest and most innovative days are ahead of it. And I look forward to watching and contributing to its success in a new role.
I have made some of the best friends of my life at Apple, and I thank you all for the many years of being able to work alongside you.
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Click to collapse
According to Reuters, Apple shares fell following the announcement.

Hopefully I won't get shunned by the community for this, but I'm actually a little disappointed.
I do really like Apple products, and I think without Jobs, they're going to become less of a competitor in the future. Less competition can make Android handset makers lazy because they aren't trying to steal the iPhone business.
And it's definitely going to hurt the tablet market. I like some of the newer tablets, but IMO, the iPad is still the best available right now. And if the iPad slows down, the tablets won't be in a hurry to catch up.
Maybe I'll be wrong. And maybe you guys won't hate me for that rant.

godsmacked4653 said:
Hopefully I won't get shunned by the community for this, but I'm actually a little disappointed.
I do really like Apple products, and I think without Jobs, they're going to become less of a competitor in the future. Less competition can make Android handset makers lazy because they aren't trying to steal the iPhone business.
And it's definitely going to hurt the tablet market. I like some of the newer tablets, but IMO, the iPad is still the best available right now. And if the iPad slows down, the tablets won't be in a hurry to catch up.
Maybe I'll be wrong. And maybe you guys won't hate me for that rant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, I agree. If I had a choice I would go with the iPad.
I think he was just done. Everyone gets burned out eventually. We're better for what he brought us. Honestly I'm a little sad now for the Mac world.

godsmacked4653 said:
Hopefully I won't get shunned by the community for this, but I'm actually a little disappointed.
I do really like Apple products, and I think without Jobs, they're going to become less of a competitor in the future. Less competition can make Android handset makers lazy because they aren't trying to steal the iPhone business.
And it's definitely going to hurt the tablet market. I like some of the newer tablets, but IMO, the iPad is still the best available right now. And if the iPad slows down, the tablets won't be in a hurry to catch up.
Maybe I'll be wrong. And maybe you guys won't hate me for that rant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jobs is a -EDIT- socialist corporate dictator in the stylings of a 1939-1945 German politician or a Stalin-era Soviet autocrat. I'm quite certain he hasn't killed anyone or tried to exterminate anything... except the competition, through any means possible.

wildstang83 said:
I think he was just done. Everyone gets burned out eventually. We're better for what he brought us. Honestly I'm a little sad now for the Mac world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah he has pancreatic cancer so it's not exactly like he's tired of it, he's not healthy enough and probably some days unable to think at full capacity because of treatments.
Jobs is a NAZI.
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Click to collapse
Obvious stupidity right there.
Apple has brought some amazing products and though I don't agree with the way they handle control over their products they still were and are pioneers in the portable MP3 player, smartphone and tablet world.

loonatik78 said:
Jobs is a NAZI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, he is a very very wealthy business man. Are you even old enough to know the true meaning of that word? Thats pretty offensive to thtow that around, you look like a complete idiot.
If ive helped you, please hit the damn thanks button!

POQbum said:
Apple has brought some amazing products and though I don't agree with the way they handle control over their products they still were and are pioneers in the portable MP3 player, smartphone and tablet world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 on that. I prefer Android, (obviously) but Apple started the non-business smartphone thing which opened up the market for Android.
The control thing is also an issue with me, but you can't argue with results. Apple is successful and tons of people use their stuff. They're obviously doing something right.

That blows man.
At least he'll have a more hands-on connection with the board of directors though.

donnyp1 said:
No, he is a very very wealthy business man. Are you even old enough to know the true meaning of that word? Thats pretty offensive to thtow that around, you look like a complete idiot.
If ive helped you, please hit the damn thanks button!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm old enough to remember what it was like to screw around on computers with dual 5.25 drives and monochrome screens, as well as the days Jobs was flying the Jolly Rodger over the headquarters of Apple. He's NOT an electronics innovator, he never was! Waz was the innovator! He screwed around with some code and got Apple where it is today though an overwhelmingly adversarial mode of management and leadership. I remember the Apple II... and do you know why? Because my dad was a developer on Unix platforms most of my life and the machines I played with at home as a kid blew those heaps of crap out of the water. Machines like the Leading Edge and the Compaq Deskpro series of 286 and 386 machines. Am I the ONLY one that knows where the GUI for the Mac came from??? It's not like Apple invented it! They basically STOLE it! Not that Gates is a whole lot better, but gimme a break people! Jobs is quite possibly the most cut-throat, aggressive man to ever rise to corporate power!
Does he have a vision? Yup. Is he successful? Sure is. Would I EVER buy an Apple product? Absolutely not. I don't like the philosophy of Steve Jobs. I don't like his management. I don't like his character. I don't like his history. I don't like the path he's led computing down in many regards. I don't like his belief in the "walled garden" user experience. If someone wants to argue Jobs hasn't run Apple as a dictator, you have NO legs to stand on. Through sheer force of personality, that man has pitted people against people like pit bulls in a dog fight. He's put his vision and his philosophies ahead of even the good of that company, which is how his ass got tossed the first time before he founded NeXT, which would certainly have gone belly up if not for a buy-out from Apple!
As for the fool who called my likening him to a NAZI stupid, consider that Jobs is WIDELY regarded as a man who'd sell his own mother to get the next iPhone out of development. He's a political and organizational socialist, in much the same style as NAZI and Soviet leadership. His cult of personality fits right in with them too. He's got this vision of an Apple world, and an Apple experience, but I can't see where he's ever given a damn about people's lives. The guy is only alive today because he bought his way onto every organ transplant list in the United States to get his liver!
Hate on me all you want, but I'm right. I don't like the guy. I've just explained why. If you've got a problem with this, do the RIGHT thing and PM me. Don't turn this into some flame war. I won't be back to this thread to be tempted.

Wow to both the previous comment and Steve Jobs stepping down.

loonatik78 said:
Jobs is a NAZI.
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well thats a harsh comment personally i like apple products and ios would i buy one instead of an android device? probably why? because android basically came from ios if you look at android and ios and compare how theyve grown everytime ios grows android seems to grow also there would be no android without ios without ios we would still be on cupcacke....what jobs has done with apple is awesome hopefully him backing down doesnt effect their products.

That's quite a surprise for the man that changed the way we saw the computer, literally.
Sent from my Zio using XDA Premium App

I like Apple products because of two things:
1. It's more techno gadgetry to play with.
2. Their shiny.

loonatik78 said:
I'm old enough to remember what it was like to screw around on computers with dual 5.25 drives and monochrome screens, as well as the days Jobs was flying the Jolly Rodger over the headquarters of Apple. He's NOT an electronics innovator, he never was! Waz was the innovator! He screwed around with some code and got Apple where it is today though an overwhelmingly adversarial mode of management and leadership. I remember the Apple II... and do you know why? Because my dad was a developer on Unix platforms most of my life and the machines I played with at home as a kid blew those heaps of crap out of the water. Machines like the Leading Edge and the Compaq Deskpro series of 286 and 386 machines. Am I the ONLY one that knows where the GUI for the Mac came from??? It's not like Apple invented it! They basically STOLE it! Not that Gates is a whole lot better, but gimme a break people! Jobs is quite possibly the most cut-throat, aggressive man to ever rise to corporate power!
Does he have a vision? Yup. Is he successful? Sure is. Would I EVER buy an Apple product? Absolutely not. I don't like the philosophy of Steve Jobs. I don't like his management. I don't like his character. I don't like his history. I don't like the path he's led computing down in many regards. I don't like his belief in the "walled garden" user experience. If someone wants to argue Jobs hasn't run Apple as a dictator, you have NO legs to stand on. Through sheer force of personality, that man has pitted people against people like pit bulls in a dog fight. He's put his vision and his philosophies ahead of even the good of that company, which is how his ass got tossed the first time before he founded NeXT, which would certainly have gone belly up if not for a buy-out from Apple!
As for the fool who called my likening him to a NAZI stupid, consider that Jobs is WIDELY regarded as a man who'd sell his own mother to get the next iPhone out of development. He's a political and organizational socialist, in much the same style as NAZI and Soviet leadership. His cult of personality fits right in with them too. He's got this vision of an Apple world, and an Apple experience, but I can't see where he's ever given a damn about people's lives. The guy is only alive today because he bought his way onto every organ transplant list in the United States to get his liver!
Hate on me all you want, but I'm right. I don't like the guy. I've just explained why. If you've got a problem with this, do the RIGHT thing and PM me. Don't turn this into some flame war. I won't be back to this thread to be tempted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are definitely some valid points there. There are several fallacies, too.
Was Jobs an overbearing ****? Probably. In a social settings, that's terrible. In a business setting? It's genius.
Apple's "walled garden" creates an unparalleled experience for the consumer. Set yourself up with a nice Mac, an iPhone and an iPad, and see how easy it is to stream media to every room in your house, your TV, etc. On top of that, everything in uniform and is actually held to, if nothing else, an aesthetic standard. The apps are interface are very high quality and 99% work just as they should, all the time. I, for one, am very envious of that.
My Incredible doesn't play nice with Windows all the time. Sometimes I download what sounds like a really cool app, only to find out the interface sucks or it crashes all the time because the developer hasn't updated it for Gingerbread. I can't expect my phone to stay updated, because technology moves incredibly fast and Verizon is greedy and holds out on said updates, as we've all seen recently here. With an Apple product? I'll get the same update as everyone else, the day it comes out, and it won't involve Verizon forcing me to have Slacker radio installed on my phone.
Google (and Microsoft, Nokia, whoever) can try as hard as they want to stomp out that "walled garden," but that simplicity and efficiency is totally unmatched on any other platform. For the average, not-so-tech-savvy user, (parents, girlfriends, that one dumb friend) putting them in a walled garden is genius. They can't break anything.
Personally, I think that's what Steve Jobs is leaving behind; an amazing marketing strategy and a fully realized vision of a simplified automation of technology aiding the average person in their everyday life. Not "being a big mean Nazi at the head of a company."
PS.
Just for reference, I love my Incredible, I had a Moto Droid before it, and my next phone will hopefully be an EVO 3D. I use Google Music and Banshee, and I dual-boot Win7 and Ubuntu. I'll probably have a Google TV by the end of the year. I am by no means an Apple fanboy. Don't even have an iPod. I'm just calling it how I see it.
/rant
Edit: I would like to add in wildstang's excellent point.
Apple products are shiny.

godsmacked4653 said:
There are definitely some valid points there. There are several fallacies, too.
Was Jobs an overbearing ****? Probably. In a social settings, that's terrible. In a business setting? It's genius.
Apple's "walled garden" creates an unparalleled experience for the consumer. Set yourself up with a nice Mac, an iPhone and an iPad, and see how easy it is to stream media to every room in your house, your TV, etc. On top of that, everything in uniform and is actually held to, if nothing else, an aesthetic standard. The apps are interface are very high quality and 99% work just as they should, all the time. I, for one, am very envious of that.
My Incredible doesn't play nice with Windows all the time. Sometimes I download what sounds like a really cool app, only to find out the interface sucks or it crashes all the time because the developer hasn't updated it for Gingerbread. I can't expect my phone to stay updated, because technology moves incredibly fast and Verizon is greedy and holds out on said updates, as we've all seen recently here. With an Apple product? I'll get the same update as everyone else, the day it comes out, and it won't involve Verizon forcing me to have Slacker radio installed on my phone.
Google (and Microsoft, Nokia, whoever) can try as hard as they want to stomp out that "walled garden," but that simplicity and efficiency is totally unmatched on any other platform. For the average, not-so-tech-savvy user, (parents, girlfriends, that one dumb friend) putting them in a walled garden is genius. They can't break anything.
Personally, I think that's what Steve Jobs is leaving behind; an amazing marketing strategy and a fully realized vision of a simplified automation of technology aiding the average person in their everyday life. Not "being a big mean Nazi at the head of a company."
PS.
Just for reference, I love my Incredible, I had a Moto Droid before it, and my next phone will hopefully be an EVO 3D. I use Google Music and Banshee, and I dual-boot Win7 and Ubuntu. I'll probably have a Google TV by the end of the year. I am by no means an Apple fanboy. Don't even have an iPod. I'm just calling it how I see it.
/rant
Edit: I would like to add in wildstang's excellent point.
Apple products are shiny.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok..... I was tempted and came back.
I will agree with every point you just made. I don't see how it conflicts with anything I said, either. And yeah.... they sure are shiny!
That said, the guy really did run the place into the ground before he was expelled. He's effectively destroyed Apple as a legitimate computer company today. Anything running OSX is obsolete before it hits the shelves. OSX, itself, is obsolete and poorly maintained. Apple USED to be something to lust over in computers, and then they got wierder, and weirder and more expensive, and the walls of that garden nearly crushed them. I think the cold hard reality is that their stuff is overpriced for what you get, it's becoming more a pain in the ass to use, ESPECIALLY if you don't want to become "one with the Steve Jobs way", and if they continue down a path of eco-system isolation, you're going to eventually see an Apple that looks like it did in the G4 era. And nobody ever thought that giant would go bust 5 or 6 years before that! ....they're already going down the road of weird proprietary connectors again! I think he's been lucky as much as "visionary".

He ran it into the ground?
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-has-more-cash-on-hand-than-the-us-government-2011-7 then how do they have more money than the federal government? That isnt running it to the grou.d.
If ive helped you, please hit the damn thanks button!

loonatik78 said:
Jobs is a -EDIT- socialist corporate dictator in the stylings of a 1939-1945 German politician or a Stalin-era Soviet autocrat. I'm quite certain he hasn't killed anyone or tried to exterminate anything... except the competition, through any means possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Corporations and socialism don't mix.
You don't know what socialism actually means. To help you along with your education, here's the definition:
Socialism - an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively
You can dislike somebody without stooping to calling them a Nazi or socialist, especially when they don't carry any of those traits- and in this case the total opposite traits. Apple is as capitalistic as they come.
// After already going back and forth with you in a couple of threads before, I'm tired of it. So I won't reply to whatever rebuttal you have, no matter how offensive, pretentious or ill-informed it is.
I hope Steve Jobs gets better and people like you educate themselves.

donnyp1 said:
He ran it into the ground?
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-has-more-cash-on-hand-than-the-us-government-2011-7 then how do they have more money than the federal government? That isnt running it to the grou.d.
If ive helped you, please hit the damn thanks button!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was actually going to point this out. Apple is an extremely wealthy company.
Not sure how everything Apple makes is "obsolete as soon as it hits the shelves," either. Their retina display is head and shoulders above nearly every other handset screen available. OS X is more or less leading in terms of desktop interface. Windows and even some Linux distros are copying the OS X desktop. And the iPad still pretty much beats every other tablet by miles.

loonatik78 said:
. . . He's effectively destroyed Apple as a legitimate computer company today. Anything running OSX is obsolete before it hits the shelves. OSX, itself, is obsolete and poorly maintained. . . I think the cold hard reality is that their stuff is overpriced for what you get, it's becoming more a pain in the ass to use ...they're already going down the road of weird proprietary connectors again! . . .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The original iPad was all about proprietary connectors, as are most of their portables. But, the marketplace supports their interfaces rather robustly.
Their Macs have all sorts of interfaces and are again industry-supported to a wide degree.
You're offering zombie Apple-hating points that have been spouted for many years, yet Apple's been doing generally quite well for some time.
Although, it seems you don't even know the difference between a German Nazi (i.e., National Socialist German Workers) Party and actual socialism. "Socialist" was placed in the Nazi Party name to lure in the real socialists (who were considered enemies of the party's goals), if I recall correctly.
So, perhaps I should suspect your similarly "off" assertions about Apple's successes and Steve Jobs role, as well.
And, I don't even like Apple products.
- ooofest

I'm not a fan of Apple products either, but from a competition standpoint, it's a necessary evil. The more competition, the better for the consumer. But from a business standpoint they just aren't open enough to be compatible with a corporate windows network.