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Hello all,
I am usually not one to make a big deal about things but I am really unhappy with Dell. If they were not ready with a quality device they should have just passed on having a launch event.
I figured it would be good to try and get more info out there since there are so few of us that have been dealing with this issue of the engineering samples and now bad returns. May not help us but you never know. If more sites have news about this maybe Dell will start to take notice since I have tried to get the news to all the Windows Phone sites that I have been reading.
WPcentral.com
Pocketnow.com
WmPoseruser.com
EverythingWM.com
Tmonews.com
I have also sent some info to jkontherun.com
Hopefully if word of what is going on spreads a bit more Dell will say something.. anything..
If Dell isn't ready with the Venue Pro then I'd just let Dell take their time to come up with a polished product. It's clear that they were not ready for the November 8 soft launch. The decision to rush the phones to Microsoft stores led to this PR fiasco.
It's just a phone. It's not the end of the world. Dell isn't forcing anyone to buy their phone.
I don't want them to rush anything.. I want the exact opposite.. If they get bad press from all of this they might think twice about releasing a product this way again.
I really want them to take a good few months to get it right before they try and launch again.
I'd like for them to just quickly tell us if this is a week long fix for them or a few months, I'm betting it's a few months now and I may just end up getting a Focus by Dec 1st
I think they are going to take their time trying to please us, they have a bigger computer market to worry about. They are going to what they do regardless
I believe between this site and references to this site from various techblogs as well as comments in Twitter have gotten Dell's attention.
Although I got my wife the Focus, I have decided to give Dell an opportunity to correct itself with a fixed product to release. Having said that, I may reach a point where I just might wait until first of next year to see what other devices Samsung and others have up their sleeve. Frankly, the hardward/spec on all the current WP7 phones are near end of lifecycle products (except the screen) on teh DVP and Foucs) so I'm kind of at a point where I may just skip the Venue Pro all together and wait for the next gen devices.
Hell, I've waited 1.8 years for WP7, what's another 2-3 months... All this goes out the window if Dell has it available in December. If later, I'll just wait.
If you do currently own a DVP and have issues, call Dell mobility and have them issue you a service number. They are escalating all issues to management. That would at least show that you as a consumer are concerned and will hopefully get them in contact with you once they have some news. The number is 18003083355
gshocker said:
Hello all,
I am usually not one to make a big deal about things but I am really unhappy with Dell. If they were not ready with a quality device they should have just passed on having a launch event.
I figured it would be good to try and get more info out there since there are so few of us that have been dealing with this issue of the engineering samples and now bad returns. May not help us but you never know. If more sites have news about this maybe Dell will start to take notice since I have tried to get the news to all the Windows Phone sites that I have been reading.
WPcentral.com
Pocketnow.com
WmPoseruser.com
EverythingWM.com
Tmonews.com
I have also sent some info to jkontherun.com
Hopefully if word of what is going on spreads a bit more Dell will say something.. anything..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice move... now they canceled all pre-ordered deviced on their site..
SonicFlare said:
Nice move... now they canceled all pre-ordered deviced on their site..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep. A representative called me yesterday afternoon to tell me my order had been canceled. And the wait continues...
SonicFlare said:
Nice move... now they canceled all pre-ordered deviced on their site..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty sure that post didn't cause them to make such a large decision as to cancel all pre-orders...lol
I would certainly hope that a post would not sway corporate decisions like that. My hope is that Dell or Microsoft says something about the status of the product. At the moment the MS stores are still showing them but not saying anything about availability.
kimck99 said:
I believe between this site and references to this site from various techblogs as well as comments in Twitter have gotten Dell's attention.
Although I got my wife the Focus, I have decided to give Dell an opportunity to correct itself with a fixed product to release. Having said that, I may reach a point where I just might wait until first of next year to see what other devices Samsung and others have up their sleeve. Frankly, the hardward/spec on all the current WP7 phones are near end of lifecycle products (except the screen) on teh DVP and Foucs) so I'm kind of at a point where I may just skip the Venue Pro all together and wait for the next gen devices.
Hell, I've waited 1.8 years for WP7, what's another 2-3 months... All this goes out the window if Dell has it available in December. If later, I'll just wait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am with you on this, I made a point about the poor specs and build quality on the HD7 and got criticized buy a few.
It seems that most think the current specs are fine.
Personally I would like better all round specs not 2 year old tech like the HD2 has. After all it is nearly 2011.
It has been frustrating trying to get a WP7 phone with the specifications I like.
As someone else said, imagine what would happen if the iPhone's GPS didnt work, so why is Android held to a lower standard? Why are we supposed to accept whatever we are given, regardless of what we are promised? The SGS and iPhone 4 cost about the same amount, but we, as Android owners are supposed to just be grateful for anything that we get even when its less than promised?Samsung is already "rumored" to be planning our phone's successor. Thats bull****, we dont deserve to be treated like this. I love the Class Action Suit, but does anyone have any other creative ideas to not only help out current SGS owners but also ruin possible SGS 4G prospects? Samsung needs to be taught that we wont just be grateful for whatever we get, we demand what we are promised, we demand what we pay for; this is only reasonable.
A company should at least have some concern for their consumers, even if its barely recognizable. Samsung left us with a broken device we paid handsomely for, they have 0 concern for us. So I pray to whoever is listening up there that the SGS 4G fails miserably. If I knew how, Id make and circulate a Facebook page with just a couple of sentences outlining the case against Samsung. Even those who dont know much about Android would pay attention to a facebook page saying Samsung has ripped off SGS consumers, so avoid any Samsung phone at all costs, there are plenty of great alternatives. Maybe there is a more effective avenue, maybe we could even pursue multiple avenues. The goal is to bring attention to the shortcomings of the SGS we currently have, it deserves Samsung's attention. And now is the time, while the class action is getting attention, lets pile it on. Im happy to do what I can, im just not sure what to do. Any ideas?
kinda like the facebook page idea. I hate that Samsung doent give a **** about selling us a broken phone, even if they said they were really sorry itd be ok if they didnt fix it. Not only are they pricks, they're dicks too.
Well, debut day of Vibrant 4G or Successor is coming up. There will be people showing up to buy them. They will be watching its debut day. There will also be press and reviewers about its debut. Thus, if you have a crew of buddies willing to help you out in boycotting their Vibrant 4G or any of the coming Galaxy S product with picket signs and banners for in front of the local stores with drums and horns. Have your buddies call up local news and it will make it to some news since people will wonder what is going on... Resist if they give you and your buddies Vibrant 4G to shut you guys up. Too bad we just missed the CES. With all those press there, that would have been perfect! We need to organize into big group to do this more effectively even if lawsuit takes forever.
This will get them to know how angry we are about this "Froyogate"
Also, maybe somebody needs to make a boycott app for ALL Galaxy S product.
Report our problems on site like RipOffReport.com, scam.com, ScamBusters.org
Give the bad review that you think the product deserve on sites like amazon epinion, pricegrabber, cnet, etc.
http://www.examiner.com/technology-in-national/samsung-responds-to-froyogate-accusations
Corporations want to maximize their profits, both for themselves and their shareholders. Thus, this shouldn't come as a surprise.
A tipster has come forward and said that Samsung is holding back the Android 2.2 (Froyo) update from the T-Mobile Vibrant (Samsung Galaxy S variant) because they are afraid that such an update will impact sales of their upcoming Samsung Vibrant 4G Plus.
Reportedly, the new device is little different than the original Vibrant. In addition to the original Vibrant, the Vibrant 4G Plus has a front-facing camera, Android 2.2, and HSDPA+ 21 support.
Here's what the tipster said:
Some disturbing things have happened the last week or so concerning our “Vibrant”. Samsung has NOT allowed us to push the update OTA for 2.2 because they feel it will decrease the value of the upcoming Vibrant4G +. While from a marketing aspect i totally understand, as the Vibrant 4G is what the original Vibrant should have been in the 1st place. But to shun off and bold face lie to customers is NOT what T-Mobile is about.
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Click to collapse
Furthermore, if Froyo works in "Vibrant 4G" - another product of Vibrant, this means it should be already for distribution for the Vibrant 3G version with minor changes.
I like the sound of all of this. I can't stand the idea that samsung suffers no repercussions for selling so many broken phones. Froyo or no froyo, the phones gps is broken, samsung shouldn't have the option to not fix it, it's INSANE
I thought that if you demonstrate to T-Mobile that the official Samsung GPS Tool fails, they would consider it defective and send for a replacement. Don't crucify me if I'm wrong, I haven't dealt with either companies.
My Samsung Vibrant came hardware locked, with faulty GPS. Samsung told me it wasn't there problem (no warranty because I brought it into Canada without an "international warranty"). Have I thought about a class action suit? Nope. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm Canadian or something, but I've just tried to fix my own problems. It's not the first product that's let me down, and I don't expect some lawyer to make it all better. Eventually the awesome people on this forum came up with a fix for the hardware lock. Then they brewed up roms based on the 2.2 leaks. Then a hardware GPS fix, combined with new software updates and now my GPS locks on in under 15s.
So what have I learned from all of this? I won't be purchasing a Samsung phone again. They've lost a customer. I vote with my wallet, not by signing some e-petition, or joining a Facebook group.
Do you really think a class action would change anything? Even if you are successful, you'll probably just get a credit towards your next Samsung purchase, or a refund on the cost of the GPS chip.
Let them know how you feel, and that you won't purchase any of their products in the future, and will be advising friends/family to do the same. kobesabi has outlined some great ways to let them know.
OP, check out the hashtag thread. If everyone screams the same thing our voice is louder.
cwoodworth said:
I thought that if you demonstrate to T-Mobile that the official Samsung GPS Tool fails, they would consider it defective and send for a replacement. Don't crucify me if I'm wrong, I haven't dealt with either companies.
My Samsung Vibrant came hardware locked, with faulty GPS. Samsung told me it wasn't there problem (no warranty because I brought it into Canada without an "international warranty"). Have I thought about a class action suit? Nope. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm Canadian or something, but I've just tried to fix my own problems. It's not the first product that's let me down, and I don't expect some lawyer to make it all better. Eventually the awesome people on this forum came up with a fix for the hardware lock. Then they brewed up roms based on the 2.2 leaks. Then a hardware GPS fix, combined with new software updates and now my GPS locks on in under 15s.
So what have I learned from all of this? I won't be purchasing a Samsung phone again. They've lost a customer. I vote with my wallet, not by signing some e-petition, or joining a Facebook group.
Do you really think a class action would change anything? Even if you are successful, you'll probably just get a credit towards your next Samsung purchase, or a refund on the cost of the GPS chip.
Let them know how you feel, and that you won't purchase any of their products in the future, and will be advising friends/family to do the same. kobesabi has outlined some great ways to let them know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand your feelings. And I think most people in here is of the mindset that we can fix our phones better than Samsung. What is going on here is a movement towards holding Samsung to their promises. They are in the OHA and therefor are legally bound to release the Source Code for the Vibrant. The second thing is that they promised multiple times throughout the last year that they would release Froyo to the US Galaxy S phones, and they didn't. If you vote by your wallet that is OK. How much do you spend on buying a new phone? With the current pricing around $500 without contract. If one person doesn't give Samsung their $500, Samsung doesn't care. If all the people on XDA doesn't give them $500, Samsung still won't care. However if we can get enough people to realize that Samsung is not a good company to buy from as they have TERRIBLE software support for their phones, if we could get 100,000 people at first, that is $50 million, which is still just a drop in the bucket for them, but that is surely more painful than $500. This is to try to make Samsung take responsibility for their products.
Agreed, Samsung should be held to the agreements made regarding their source code. I also agree that people should be informed Samsung as a company, and their poor customer relation choices.
I just think a Class Action is the wrong way to do it
kobesabi said:
Well, debut day of Vibrant 4G or Successor is coming up. ... Resist if they give you and your buddies Vibrant 4G to shut you guys up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Riiiiiight...I promise I will do that!
AndroidPerson said:
As someone else said, imagine what would happen if the iPhone's GPS didnt work, so why is Android held to a lower standard? Why are we supposed to accept whatever we are given, regardless of what we are promised? The SGS and iPhone 4 cost about the same amount, but we, as Android owners are supposed to just be grateful for anything that we get even when its less than promised?Samsung is already "rumored" to be planning our phone's successor. Thats bull****, we dont deserve to be treated like this. I love the Class Action Suit, but does anyone have any other creative ideas to not only help out current SGS owners but also ruin possible SGS 4G prospects? Samsung needs to be taught that we wont just be grateful for whatever we get, we demand what we are promised, we demand what we pay for; this is only reasonable.
A company should at least have some concern for their consumers, even if its barely recognizable. Samsung left us with a broken device we paid handsomely for, they have 0 concern for us. So I pray to whoever is listening up there that the SGS 4G fails miserably. If I knew how, Id make and circulate a Facebook page with just a couple of sentences outlining the case against Samsung. Even those who dont know much about Android would pay attention to a facebook page saying Samsung has ripped off SGS consumers, so avoid any Samsung phone at all costs, there are plenty of great alternatives. Maybe there is a more effective avenue, maybe we could even pursue multiple avenues. The goal is to bring attention to the shortcomings of the SGS we currently have, it deserves Samsung's attention. And now is the time, while the class action is getting attention, lets pile it on. Im happy to do what I can, im just not sure what to do. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Send me all your grievances
[email protected]
Copy and paste them on RipoffReport
Samsung Forums
Facebook
Twitter #NeverAgain
Everywhere!!!!!!
Thanks for all the Support
BOYCOTT THE SAMSUNG 4G
I made a theme song
http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_6815946
(To be honest I would have made this song at least a month ago before all of this but I was real busy all through December)
Here's one more thing we can do:
Post bad reviews of Samsung Galaxy phones on all online retailer web sites that sell them. Got an Amazon account? Post feedback there and drive this phone's rating down it gets Samsung's attention and warns potential buyers about buying a product that they will most likely be dissatisfied with once they realize that GPS is marginally functional and that it's running now outdated version of Android with no update in sight. Do the same on Tiger Direct, NewEgg and whoever else sells this phone.
Collectively we can definitely make Samsung take notice.
Lol the iphones attenna doesn't work.... no one sued over that
Although im all for the law suit
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
bbm21 said:
Lol the iphones attenna doesn't work.... no one sued over that
Although im all for the law suit
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me google that for you..what do you know...multiple lawsuits filed regarding antenna gate.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...on-suits-filed-over-iphone-4-antenna-flaw.ars
Also, people can also get creative on Youtube. Or something like MicBeast...the more sabateurs try to oppose him, the more view counts it gets and the more people pay attention to it.
kobesabi said:
Also, people can also get creative on Youtube. Or something like MicBeast...the more sabateurs try to oppose him, the more view counts it gets and the more people pay attention to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_6834100
I will be working on a YouTube video
exactly what kobesabi said
don't be fooled by the saboteurs
they had my thread closed
and I will not respond to any more of their BS
I am still going through with this class action
My original thread regarding the CA had nothing to do with this song
This came out of me complaining to people
about the constant issues I've had with my Vibrant
They would say "just shut up and make a song about it"
So I finally did
Agent Jones is one of those users that joined this forum for the sole intent and purpose of having my thread closed, and possibly having me banned from this forum. These are his posts see for yourself
http://forum.xda-developers.com/search.php?searchid=56507152
please join me in having saboteurs like him banned from this forum
people like him
whose sole purpose is to silence anyone who opposes their best interest
have no place in any public forum
Acknowledgment & Fax Cover sheet to submit additional information.
Filling for: ***** has been received by the FCC. Thanks for your information. When inquiring about your complaint, be sure to reference this number: 11-C00273373 and, be sure to mention that you filed this complaint over the internet.
I have just joined the Facebook group NeverAgainSamsung: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_119358658137499
C'mon!
AndroidPerson said:
As someone else said, imagine what would happen if the iPhone's GPS didnt work, so why is Android held to a lower standard? Why are we supposed to accept whatever we are given, regardless of what we are promised? The SGS and iPhone 4 cost about the same amount, but we, as Android owners are supposed to just be grateful for anything that we get even when its less than promised?Samsung is already "rumored" to be planning our phone's successor. Thats bull****, we dont deserve to be treated like this. I love the Class Action Suit, but does anyone have any other creative ideas to not only help out current SGS owners but also ruin possible SGS 4G prospects? Samsung needs to be taught that we wont just be grateful for whatever we get, we demand what we are promised, we demand what we pay for; this is only reasonable.
A company should at least have some concern for their consumers, even if its barely recognizable. Samsung left us with a broken device we paid handsomely for, they have 0 concern for us. So I pray to whoever is listening up there that the SGS 4G fails miserably. If I knew how, Id make and circulate a Facebook page with just a couple of sentences outlining the case against Samsung. Even those who dont know much about Android would pay attention to a facebook page saying Samsung has ripped off SGS consumers, so avoid any Samsung phone at all costs, there are plenty of great alternatives. Maybe there is a more effective avenue, maybe we could even pursue multiple avenues. The goal is to bring attention to the shortcomings of the SGS we currently have, it deserves Samsung's attention. And now is the time, while the class action is getting attention, lets pile it on. Im happy to do what I can, im just not sure what to do. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love the facebook idea, we can have a vote "buy from samsung again, yes/no"...set that up and lets start a movement and make other consumers aware of what samsung had done.
Lot of good ideas here, maybe op can update with an organized list. I registered at scam and tipoff report so I'll start or add to samsung complaints, and th facebook thing sounds great. Let's keep it up
We egg sammys ceo house all day long )
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
SamsungMobileUS: Seeking To Defuse Tensions, Samsung Opens Dialogue With XDA-Dev Forum - http://ow.ly/3X2cL @SamsungJohn
Sent from my non-rooted, stock eclair Epic.
I'd say the rants of people saying they're never going Samsung again seems to be paying off?
XtaC318 said:
I'd say the rants of people saying they're never going Samsung again seems to be paying off?
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Click to collapse
No pay day yet. This is Sammy's way of confessing they have been trying to do it their way instead of please the customer for too long.
It still remains to be seen what they actually DO about it.
We all know what pathway good intentions paved =]
The bottom line is until sammy gets the carriers in line, and froyo gets released before its 1st birthday! People will rant with good reason. Btw gingerbread has been out for like 3 months! We have a top of the line device running an os from 2009. Honestly I love the hardware but I can't handle this bad os support.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
Whoever even buys another Samsung flagship phone with the belief that they learned their lesson deserves what they are going to get and shouldn't complain anymore. If you haven't realized what their intent is, which is maximum profit with the least effort, while actually making it seem like they kind of care with PR rep's that promise things that they cant' actually commit to. INB4C
My friend asked me what phone he should buy, and looked at the Galaxy S2 and the Motorola Atrix. It was a no brainer which phone was the winner. Go Atrix! Pre-ordered and waiting! He was waiting for a nice dual core phone, but after the mess he has heard from me with Samsung, he said he definitely doesn't want to go through the same thing. To be honest, this crap is making me sick to my stomach just talking about anymore, cause we've all been crapped on, and it doesn't feel nice.
I'm not surprised in the least that Samsung would think that this meaningless gesture would diffuse this issue, but I'm honestly SHOCKED that "Xda leaders" would put any thought into this. I suspect they're making money off this, somehow.
This site has lost its way badly.
At least it's a start and shows Samsung at least recognizes they've pissed off some people. It's better than what they've been doing which has been a whole lot of nothing.
re: XDA profiting... maybe request some transparency on the issue??? Besides, I thought they were in bed with HTC, like Sprint...? (hehehehe )
Y'all getting played ... Pay attention.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
enlighten us on how were being played... I love a good conspiracy theory...
I HEARD... Samsung sent John to distract attention from the fact that they are currently in hostage negotiations with Sprint, the suitcase full of cash is in transit, and Noobnl has the code to unlock it, but he refuses to share it with anyone because he only cares about glory, so he is meeting John at sxsw to listen to crappy emo music and make the handoff. And THEN Sprint will begin work on adding SprintID and a new, improved, constant Nascar streaming app, which can in no way be turned off. Oh, and HTC assassins are waiting there to shoot Noob so that they can still claim that the EVO is the flagship phone, and artificially make supply of the phone backordered to give the impression to the common consumer that it is not a giant POS. Did I miss anything?
I've never owned a Samsung phone before the Epic. It is my first and MY LAST. HEAR ME SAMSUNG? YOU BLEW IT.
ungovernable1977 said:
enlighten us on how were being played... I love a good conspiracy theory...
I HEARD... Samsung sent John to distract attention from the fact that they are currently in hostage negotiations with Sprint, the suitcase full of cash is in transit, and Noobnl has the code to unlock it, but he refuses to share it with anyone because he only cares about glory, so he is meeting John at sxsw to listen to crappy emo music and make the handoff. And THEN Sprint will begin work on adding SprintID and a new, improved, constant Nascar streaming app, which can in no way be turned off. Oh, and HTC assassins are waiting there to shoot Noob so that they can still claim that the EVO is the flagship phone, and artificially make supply of the phone backordered to give the impression to the common consumer that it is not a giant POS. Did I miss anything?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Careful....there's many a self-demonstrated poster in these forums that will actually, seriously, believe that too. *g*
Here's to hoping open exchange of dialogue will soon become exchange of sources and binaries!
Honestly, this was my first Samsung phone in about ten years is so far, it's my last.
It's not the lack of Froyo, this is just a simple annoyance. What killed it is GPS that works like crap, barely functioning accelorometer, retarded hardcoded GPS accuracy refusal to do anything about these two issues. I have a bad feeling that the last bug isn't a bug at all, but an attempt to cover up poorly functioning GPS on this phone. If I was Colbert, I'd wag my finger at them.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
and.... how does this help me???
DiGi760 said:
Do they sell the car docks now? I've seen them on Sammy's web page since launch, but I have been unable to find a single place where it is for sale.
And you do know that the Epic isn't "a year fukin old" yet, don't you? It was announced in June and launched at the end of August which makes it only 6 months old for consumers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
2.2 - year old by now.
ungovernable1977 said:
enlighten us on how were being played... I love a good conspiracy theory...
I HEARD... Samsung sent John to distract attention from the fact that they are currently in hostage negotiations with Sprint, the suitcase full of cash is in transit, and Noobnl has the code to unlock it, but he refuses to share it with anyone because he only cares about glory, so he is meeting John at sxsw to listen to crappy emo music and make the handoff. And THEN Sprint will begin work on adding SprintID and a new, improved, constant Nascar streaming app, which can in no way be turned off. Oh, and HTC assassins are waiting there to shoot Noob so that they can still claim that the EVO is the flagship phone, and artificially make supply of the phone backordered to give the impression to the common consumer that it is not a giant POS. Did I miss anything?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will buy that for a dollar....LOL
Sent from DEEZ
Any Twitter/FB spammers reading??? Can you confirm this yourself... another conspiracy... oh my!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=955776
would be funny if it were true... and then SJ does a little dance 'hey! look over here!' hehehe...
im just finding this all funny at this point...
Hi I'm samsungjohn, just wanted to let you guys know that I'm just using this pr to gain rank within the amsung corporation. I figured if I was able to convince everyone to stick with samsung and to keep buying samsung, that I will be soon promoted. In reality I am jus doing this for a job. I don't even own a samsung phone. I own an LG, but thank you for listening to me and allowing me to pull your strings....Public Actions speak louder than words....oh and by the way. The Truth Is What You Make It, and Who You get To Believe In It.
No worries I'm just poking fun at this all. If people have gotten offended by it then the truth lies within the offended. Lol
now if Samsung were to really/officially be changing fo the people they would skip over froyo and be the first to update every galaxy s series to gingerbread. Or at least get froyo out and gingerbread soon after.
And powers at be, feel free to delete or modify this if you like. I've already gotten past the point of anger, and this whole samsung update bs is just a joke to me now. Samsung makes great dumb phones but a smart phone is just isn't worth it.
Too late, too slow, too little.
Samsung unfortunately is still working on the feature-phone timelines. What they (and most other android phone makers, with the possible exception of HTC) seem to not quite understand is that these smartphones are true computers now, and need to be treated as such. The OS is an integral part of phone, perhaps the most important part, and people will not tolerate a company that refuses to update an OS that both has critical bugs (and yes, the GPS bug is a CRITICAL bug), and appears incapable of utilizing the hardware it's surrounded by. It's like Microsoft refusing to repair a Windows bug that kept all printers only printing in black and white. It's almost worse that the hardware is so good, and is being crippled by a poorly customized OS (like tantalus, nearby but unreachable relief is far worse than no possibility of relief at all).
It's going to take a really big step to mollify those that have been burned by this generation of samsung's smartphones. Samsung, if your listening. You've pissed off many of your most important phone buyers. These are the people who less tech-savvy people ask for advice on phones, and for every 1 XDA member offended by your apparent lack of desire to properly support your equipment, you probably lose at least 10 referral sales to companies like HTC.
My recommendation, at least open the source code for the devs to look at, and if you're having software quality problems (and that's the reason you can't get froyo out the door), invite some of the best devs to take a look at the proprietary modules that you're having problems with. Work with the community and you may maintain some degree of support for your next generation of phones. But keep trying to astroturf them, or worse yet, pull a Behold 2 on them, and watch out as your current market lead could easily change next generation.
This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.
Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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Click to collapse
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
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I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.
Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
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bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
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The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
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I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.
kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
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Except Motorola's bootloaders.
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
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It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
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If only someone was willing to risk their job
phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
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If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
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Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.
Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.
http://wmpoweruser.com/editorial-microsoft-intervene-with-dell-now/
I can't thank them enough for not letting Dell off the hook. You know damn well that Dell is just trying to wait this thing out until it would be an outdated device anyhow and most of us just move on without them having to repair all these units.
As far as Dell wanting to refund some of us 50% of what we are paying (100% if you ask them, but it is 50% if you do the math) they should also have to buy us out of our mobile contracts, for those that signed a brand new contract in order to get this phone. I completely changed carriers to T-Mobile to get this device. Without the device I would have gone somewhere else. In the end, I feel these dead-beats (Dell board members in latin terms) owe me close to $1000 for this entire mess, in order to put me back in the same exact situation I was in before I got suckered into buying one of these lemons.
I second that and lets wait for a response from Dell. Can you also tip wpcenteral and engadget on the same.
notebookgrail said:
I second that and lets wait for a response from Dell. Can you also tip wpcenteral and engadget on the same.
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I have tipped engadget and gizmodo about 4 times each on this issue and that both don't seem to care.
I agree, this is a good idea...
missionsparta said:
I have tipped engadget and gizmodo about 4 times each on this issue and that both don't seem to care.
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I think wmpoweruser is the only blog that will take this up, that's more their style to be confrontational. I tipped wpcentral but they seem too close to MS sources and wont want to rock the boat so they probably wont carry this. engadget and gizmodo's lack of response is not surprising since they are both pro-apple sites.
efjay said:
Iengadget and gizmodo's lack of response is not surprising since they are both pro-apple sites.
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Which is exactly why I thought they would jump all over this and use this to report why Microsoft's business structure of relying on third parties to produce your hardware leaves you at their mercy.
I sent it off to thisismynext.com, see if they will pick it up for something relating to customer service and business partnerships.
I doubt anyone other than WMPoweruser will report it. The simple reason is that WMPU doesn't get any demo units/juicy stuff from Companies/MFG'rs. All the rest have a big parent company who has close relation with big companies and don't want to disturb the news supply chain. They don't have the balls to even speak-up unless its a widespread issue where they get to cover-up their ass.
missionsparta said:
I can't thank them enough for not letting Dell off the hook. You know damn well that Dell is just trying to wait this thing out until it would be an outdated device anyhow and most of us just move on without them having to repair all these units.
As far as Dell wanting to refund some of us 50% of what we are paying (100% if you ask them, but it is 50% if you do the math) they should also have to buy us out of our mobile contracts, for those that signed a brand new contract in order to get this phone. I completely changed carriers to T-Mobile to get this device. Without the device I would have gone somewhere else. In the end, I feel these dead-beats (Dell board members in latin terms) owe me close to $1000 for this entire mess, in order to put me back in the same exact situation I was in before I got suckered into buying one of these lemons.
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Looks like Dell has responded (or responded by its absence at the MS media party today)... they are stepping away from the consumer business.
Homedesigner said:
Looks like Dell has responded (or responded by its absence at the MS media party today)... they are stepping away from the consumer business.
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I would not go that far. From personal experience with MS and Dell , future mango testing cannot be done until the final firmware fix is in. The primary concern, so I'm told, is the reporting of memory. Without the final fix in place, they cannot test mango. My guess is that Dell has not provided a date yet. I know mango runs well on the VP with the test build of the firmware. It runs real well. I can't wait. If you look at the MS update about Dell, the book is not closed.
Update: Dell is not off the list of WP7 hardware manufacturers. Microsoft told us that the Round Rock gang simply isn't one of the "partners ready to go" do the Mango tango right now
I'm not looking for anything beyond mango, but seeing as how the at&t version just came out it would be really disheartening to not get mango.
Really hope you are right. I'm cautiously optimistic .
venelar said:
I'm not looking for anything beyond mango, but seeing as how the at&t version just came out it would be really disheartening to not get mango.
Really hope you are right. I'm cautiously optimistic .
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Its taking this long to get a fix in place for existing phones, if they cant get it done I wont hold out hope for Mango if I were you. You are much better off just selling the phone then (if you can) and getting one from an OEM who has more experience making smartphones. For me if the DVP gets Mango is irrelevant as I will be importing the first Nokia WP7 handset I can, my only concern is using a crash-prone handset for 6 more months, not sure my sanity would be preserved after that much mental torture!
efjay said:
Its taking this long to get a fix in place for existing phones, if they cant get it done I wont hold out hope for Mango if I were you. You are much better off just selling the phone then (if you can) and getting one from an OEM who has more experience making smartphones. For me if the DVP gets Mango is irrelevant as I will be importing the first Nokia WP7 handset I can, my only concern is using a crash-prone handset for 6 more months, not sure my sanity would be preserved after that much mental torture!
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...and this is it in a nutshell. All future updates are surely at risk, without the firmware update. though I personally think it will come, its easy for me to say because I'm one of the lucky ones with few problems with the phone. Until the update is out and working.....Mango is off the table for everyone because it does not offer the firmware fix...only Dell can do that
While a hand full of you have working devices; I have had 5 and all have been complete garbage. None of them can run day one WinMo7 OS for more than 10 minutes tops, without being a complete disaster. In all honesty, I can't see any of the 5 I have had running Mango without going into cardiac arrest.