Database Users

Town Hall Meeting: Do you Guys Want One? Please Vote.

[highlight]Town Hall Meeting Scrapped due to Involved Parties Resolving their differences[/highlight]
To all (especially Feeyo and shenshang)
I don't really know what is going on in here, why you guys are fighting, or why you simply can't get along. I just deleted about 12 posts which had nothing more than constant flaming, finger pointing, and the such... all behaviors that are not allowed in XDA grounds (see rule 2).
Over the last week or so there have been constant comments, complains, and tons of issues coming from this section. There have been a bunch of moderators in here already, and it seems that this has no end in sight. As far as I am concerned, banning is a useful tool, which is better avoided if not absolutely needed... and I believe this to be the case.
Having said this, I would like to offer the following approach to solve this issue (and any other issues that you may have in your minds)... A Town Hall meeting type of thread, which will be grounds for discussion of current issues (you can see the thread here). I did this in the Hero CDMA section a few weeks ago and everything turned out rather well since people were able to talk and discuss issues in a civilized manner.
Here are the rules:
- The thread will only remain open for discussion for a certain period of time (I did the last one for 8 hours).
- No flaming/trolling/rudeness/cursing will be allowed.
- No banning will occur.
- Irrelevant posts will be automatically deleted.
- The thread will be heavily monitored by one or more moderators.
I will copy this post into a new thread and turn it into a poll under Hero G2 General and make a poll to see if you are all interested in doing this. If I get enough people agreeing, I will then schedule a time.
This is will be a final resource before banning begins. I am willing to put up the time if you guys are willing to cooperate.
Let me know what you all think.

My opinion
Better to keep the thread open for a specific rom version.
New versions new threads.
With this way problems with current version can be solved in its thread.
And for my point of view developers never must be banned or forced not to visit this forum.
They keep the keys to our problems and they are the life of this forum.

I have personally apologised to Feeyo for hi-jacking his thread. I have no issue with him directly, I just have an issue with the way he handled the situation earlier.
It's a joke that it's even come to this stage.
Leaving over this is an absolute over-reaction. Nobody wanted that. Nobody actually wanted you to take down your ROM at all. All that was requested was a thank you in the opening post. Instead, we got the over reaction of Feeyo removing his ROM, and claiming that it was the VillainROM team's fault.
As I said in Feeyo's thread, I have no problem with him at all, and welcome him as another developer in the community.
Before anyone starts - this is not about which ROM is better, and which thread has more views. Look at my relationship with Behnaam/RaiderX. Yes - they were competition, I suppose, but they are both friends of mine on GTalk. Many a time have we all helped one another with a ROM. If it was about jealousy - surely I'd be jealous of Behnaam? He's an excellent developer.
All I wanted from this whole situation is credit where it was due. That's a line of text in the post. Everything else could have remained the same and we could have moved on. I think the best thing to do is for Feeyo to come back to XDA and get over the situation. It's really not as big a deal as it has become. Calm down, think logically - and continue posting your ROMs.

egzthunder1 said:
Let me know what you all think.
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Click to collapse
on my view as a developer (not rom, but other-code) and as htc rom user i think:
It's a pitty that users are allowed to accuse someone to be a thief w/o having any evidence (see this link)
I think XDA lost the best Hero ROM (personal opinion), if Feeyo stays out
Flamers who flame in other threads should be punished hard and immediately. I see (and saw) different Villain-Users (User!! not Devs) who flame regular on other ROM threads
And from a coder point of view: I personally give a sh*t of credits. Im coding in GPL and or BSD license, but honestly, the whole GPL-Credit thingy is just an egomaniacal habit. I therefore mostly release on a BSD-alike license (but, ya this is personal)
With a bit of "nice" attitude the VR (Dev) team (nprussel&co) had the chance to not escalate this whole mess. But im not 100% sure if this (ever) was their intention.
Fact is, I lost (probably) a ROM. The best one so far. And I (as a user) give a f*** about the reasons, who started or who's right or not.

Andro1d said:
on my view as a developer (not rom, but other-code) and as htc rom user i think:
It's a pitty that users are allowed to accuse someone to be a thief w/o having any evidence (see this link)
I think XDA lost the best Hero ROM (personal opinion), if Feeyo stays out
Flamers who flame in other threads should be punished hard and immediately. I see (and saw) different Villain-Users (User!! not Devs) who flame regular on other ROM threads
And from a coder point of view: I personally give a sh*t of credits. Im coding in GPL and or BSD license, but honestly, the whole GPL-Credit thingy is just an egomaniacal habit. I therefore mostly release on a BSD-alike license (but, ya this is personal)
With a bit of "nice" attitude the VR (Dev) team (nprussel&co) had the chance to not escalate this whole mess.
Fact is, I lost (probably) a ROM. The best one so far. And I (as a user) dont give a f*** who started or who's right or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you cant see the reasons behind it because they were deleted(by egz i belive), not gonna start it up here wait for the proper thread, but there was villain stuff found in his rom.

This should have been resolved by PM. It really shouldn't need this, but apparently it does.
To answer this question - yes, I think the town hall thing would be a good idea. We're not out to burn Feeyo, or anyone else for that matter.

nprussell said:
This should have been resolved by PM. It really shouldn't need this, but apparently it does.
To answer this question - yes, I think the town hall thing would be a good idea. We're not out to burn Feeyo, or anyone else for that matter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well feeyo abused that by posting your pm in public (without permission)
further to that I agree mainly with the above, all we asked was for credit, then Feeyo took upon himself to remove his own rom (and blamed it on villain) then he has taken the extreme step to remove himself from xda and again (placed the blame on villain) when really we have done nothing wrong at all.
Maybe some of us got a bit angry but nothing majorly bad was said, at least not from what I saw.
It just got way out of hand and was not helped when respective "fan boys" and I hate using that term but it fits now, got involved.
It should have ended when I tried to end it hours ago, then again when the mod stepped in.
There has always been a culture of sharing on here, and villain has always been party to that, it has only been recently that a few "devs" have for whatever reason stopped this, it might be due to ignorance, but in some is due to the fact they are glory hunters (not naming who it is but we all know! and its not feeyo!)

Piercy0812 said:
you cant see the reasons behind it because they were deleted(by egz i belive), not gonna start it up here wait for the proper thread, but there was villain stuff found in his rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you (YOU personally) accused feeyo that he has stolen code. So YOU should have evidence that he had. Not others. And thats exactly what I wrote above.
"I heard there was smthing that was wrong". Bwa... either you have evidence, or, just keep your hands off of the keyboard. thx.

Nobody will burn Feeyo because he didn´t do anything wrong.
There is a misunderstanding point here.. why all devs can hack everything without crediting anyone.. i didn´t see any credits to the originals android/google developers neither for the htc devs in any post from any rom..
So what´s the big deal of using someone theme in a rom???

dna777 said:
Nobody will burn Feeyo because he didn´t do anything wrong.
There is a misunderstanding point here.. why all devs can hack everything without crediting anyone.. i didn´t see any credits to the originals android/google developers neither for the htc devs in any post from any rom..
So what´s the big deal of using someone theme in a rom???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See this is where the biggest part of the missunderstanding has occured, we are not talking about a theme here!

Lennyuk said:
well feeyo abused that by posting your pm in public (without permission)
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Click to collapse
question: how would you on such a "problem".
on public: everything is calm, and nice, and all VR people are such nice guys
on pm: bwa, you should be banned for that but if you go down on your knees, then maybe we'll see
Feeyo's public posting of the pm was not nice, and not ok. 100% ack. But, you know for sure that there wasn't more behind the scenes ?
Nobody knows (beside of the involved parties, and their pm inboxes). And tbh i dont think we ever know what exactly happened. It's just a pitty how this whole thing escalated.

Andro1d said:
question: how would you on such a "problem".
on public: everything is calm, and nice, and all VR people are such nice guys
on pm: bwa, you should be banned for that but if you go down on your knees, then maybe we'll see
Feeyo's public posting of the pm was not nice, and not ok. 100% ack. But, you know for sure that there wasn't more behind the scenes ?
Nobody knows (beside of the involved parties, and their pm inboxes). And tbh i dont think we ever know what exactly happened. It's just a pitty how this whole thing escalated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I posted all my exchange Pm'd with feeyo on the villain thread (after he gave me permission) and it showed that I was generally trying to sort it out, no anger or accusations just a friendly member of the community, he then gave a bad language response probably due to him talking to others that I didn't know about at that time.
Both parties are probably at fault here for why it escalated the way it did, we just now need to move on, learn from this so it does not happen again.

Andro1d said:
you (YOU personally) accused feeyo that he has stolen code. So YOU should have evidence that he had. Not others. And thats exactly what I wrote above.
"I heard there was smthing that was wrong". Bwa... either you have evidence, or, just keep your hands off of the keyboard. thx.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol. im not even gonna bother writing a response to your obvious flame (did you not read the rules above?). as said, ill wait for the thread.

i voted no, i personally am done with uber-lameness of xda. @mods: nice try, but if you always wait for the very last moment (or even the one after that) it will break eventually. you have successfully split the hero community in two or more groups, congratulations. i will stay in mine, which is villainrom.
since criticism is not really an option here i expect this comment to be deleted soon, goodbye everyone who decides to stay here. there were some nice moments, although not too many of them. guess that is the fate of public forums without proper moderation...

kendong2 said:
i voted no, i personally am done with uber-lameness of xda. @mods: nice try, but if you always wait for the very last moment (or even the one after that) it will break eventually. you have successfully split the hero community in two or more groups, congratulations. i will stay in mine, which is villainrom.
since criticism is not really an option here i expect this comment to be deleted soon, goodbye everyone who decides to stay here. there were some nice moments, although not too many of them. guess that is the fate of public forums without proper moderation...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i know that feeling, but im still optimistic.

Thats a playschool here. Really funny.
Since feeyo starts his work with the excelent cronos rom ppl try to give feeyo a bash/clout.
Anybody looks inside his roms to find a wrong part.
That ppl should better look into his own roms to fix the own buggy and laggy roms.
No meeting is needed. Use your brains ppl!
hf

I think that none of this would have mattered if it wasn't for the fact that cronos had the best ROM. The whole thing smacks of jealousy to me.
I'm sure that cronos did pinch some stuff and/or vice versa, but such is the nature of hacking.

spence91 said:
I'm sure that cronos did pinch some stuff and/or vice versa, but such is the nature of hacking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you said it´s so clear.. and NOBODY can argue with that.
So what the problem at all?

spence91 said:
did pinch some stuff and/or vice versa, but such is the nature of hacking.
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Click to collapse
Giving credit is not gonna kill him.

devil-kin said:
Giving credit is not gonna kill him.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, but I cannot see credits to Feeyo for the stuff Villain guys took out of one of his earlier ROMs, or did i miss something?
That theme thing everythings about isn't even working correctly and would have been removed due to public moan in the next Rom again anyways!

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

Respect, decency, and etiquette

I love XDA.
I've been lurking for about a year now in a few different device forums as I contemplated buying a Viewsonic Gtablet, then a Notion Ink, then a Moto Xoom, before finally settling on the Transformer
It seems regardless of platform, there is at least a handful of talented, patient, and damn smart developers making cool things happen, a bunch more tinkerer-by-nature hobbyists trying all the cool stuff the devs put out (and showing their gratitude any way they can), another handful of eager but clueless -- sometimes young, ESL, or whatever -- people asking dumb questions, and finally, the few self-righteous bullies that make every visit to XDA a jarring reminder of how rude people can be.
Moderators (and self-envisioned moderators)...stop being jerks! I understand the importance of keeping threads in their respective categories and of cleaning up duplicate threads and asking people to search before creating another thread, and I appreciate the work you do. But don't say something to someone you wouldn't say to them in person, just because you can't see their face!
Succinctly make your point, shut it down, and move on. Snark is the nails on a chalkboard of personality traits; we'll all benefit and improve ourselves by growing out of it.
A) The search function sucks. It does. The only reason I know where anything is on these forums is because I spent ~20 hours reading every single thread that looked important before I even bought my tablet. I don't think the oft-thrown-in-people's-faces search bar has ever helped me find something I wanted to know. Is that an excuse for people to be too lazy to do some research on their own before making a post filled with questions they could've answered simply by browsing the front page of threads? No. But it is something to consider next time you want to jump down someone's throat for having a specific question about drivers while trying to figure out NVFlash.
B) There are three different deprecated "stock to rom" walkthroughs still stickied! (See the "Eee pad reference thread.") Rooting and rom-ing is an undertaking, and people are willing and want to learn/teach themselves, but don't keep three contradicting textbooks on the shelf and then get pissy when people don't know whether the current "best practice" is this or that. If you want to keep the house clean of annoying re-post questions, maybe someone should take a day and streamline that "Eee pad reference thread" into something useful/usable again. Looks like the f***** tax code!
C) I'm not a developer -- I can't make anything cool, port this, or deodex that. But I can help these clueless, lost people figure out what went wrong in their attempt to gain root. And often, I'd like to answer their questions...but you already locked the thread and told them to pack their bags because they're not smart enough for the wild west of XDA!
Anyway, it'll be easy for you to dismiss (or lock and delete) this, because it isn't really "Transformer General," I've only posted five times, and/or because no one likes to turn a critical eye upon themselves, but I hope you don't.
I'm just a guest here, and not much of a contributing one at that, but just be respectful to people.

Searching before posting is a rule of this site, not a suggestion. I have seen plenty of people do fine searching for things on their own, myself included. Those that complain about the search function either don't know how to use it right or don't actually use it and claim they did. If your job was to remind people of rules they should already know and are blatantly obvious, but choose to ignore, you would be tired of it too; honestly those people deserve more than a slight reminding of the rules (temp ban sounds more appealing). Consider it a favor that a slap on the wrist is all that happens.
If you don't like XDA search function, use google. If you can't use google, rid yourself of the Internet, save yourself the trouble, and save us from you. Welcome to Earth.
Sent from my creaky Thunderbolt

One reason that the search function doesn't work as anticipated (at least for me) is that the default is "search titles only" and if you just blindly type a search term in and hit "go" then you almost always won't get a hit.
I've had to hit "advanced search" and choose "in titles and posts" to get anything.
So that's my comment and now I have a question..lol...
How do I make the default to search titles and posts and not just titles?
I've already tried saving my search preferences; that seems to do nothing.

mb02 said:
Searching before posting is a rule of this site, not a suggestion. I have seen plenty of people do fine searching for things on their own, myself included. Those that complain about the search function either don't know how to use it right or don't actually use it and claim they did. If your job was to remind people of rules they should already know and are blatantly obvious, but choose to ignore, you would be tired of it too; honestly those people deserve more than a slight reminding of the rules (temp ban sounds more appealing). Consider it a favor that a slap on the wrist is all that happens.
If you don't like XDA search function, use google. If you can't use google, rid yourself of the Internet, save yourself the trouble, and save us from you. Welcome to Earth.
Sent from my creaky Thunderbolt
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow. Way to prove OP's point. You know you could have just not commented, but the fact that you expended the effort just to be a snarky, sniping jackass not only showcases exactly what OP was talking about, but also tells us everything we need to know about you as a person. Why don't you go **** yourself and the horse you rode in on?
Thanks

KoNP said:
Wow. Way to prove OP's point. You know you could have just not commented, but the fact that you expended the effort just to be a snarky, sniping jackass not only showcases exactly what OP was talking about, but also tells us everything we need to know about you as a person.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And
KoNP said:
Why don't you go **** yourself and the horse you rode in on?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This has got to be the funniest "pot-calling-the-kettle-black" moment I've seen on the XDA in a long time....
Why do these two sentences not go together?
I've seen funny...and that's funny.

rpavich said:
I've seen funny...and that's funny.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I try.
Also, it's not the pot calling the kettle black to call someone else out on their ****ty behaviour. Additionally, I'm not the one sitting here acting like I'm infallible and taking cheap shots at the OP who made valid points. If mb02 had had something legitimate to say in response to OP, hell something halfway contributory, then he wouldn't have had to respond the way he did. I think he's forgotten that old adage "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" somewhere along the way.
You get to choose which side of the fence to sit on. The side with elitist circlejerkers who practice exclusion like mb02, or the side with people who would rather spend their posting effort helping others and not being a total cockjockey.

Yeah right...you're correcting is WAAAAYYY different than anybody else's....

Read the Policy Announcement to get a feel for why XDA is here.
Also the XDA MANTRA
(begin paraphrase from a former Senior Moderator)
This is not a site to make people popular. I don't care how many people use a specific kernel/ROM/mod/hack/bicycle - act like a fool and demand something from a developer who has put their time and energy and effort - and you deserve to be called out for it. The rules are here for a reason. You either follow them or leave, your choice.
What XDA is:
XDA is a developers site
XDA is a free forum you are ALLOWED to use. We could make it invite only
XDA is and always will be about the developers. And before you say without the users there would be no XDA, Bull****, who do you think used the stuff before normal people even knew what a smartphone was......wait for it.........other developers. People that could give good feedback with relavent info. Not just "dahhh this is broken, please fix".
What XDA is NOT:
XDA is not a place to come and make your phone cool.
XDA is not the cool place for idiots to hang out.
XDA is not your friends house
XDA is not a democracy
XDA is not a place to make Money.
XDA IS a place to come to learn and share your knowledge. If you are not here for those reasons then you are here for the wrong ones.
XDA has become a place where every dumbass in the world has a smartphone and comes here thinking they have the right to anything. Well guess what? You dont have the right to s**t. We share it because we want to and we dont if we dont feel like it. Are the Developers or the Mods required to make you happy? Nope not in the least. Wanna leave. Go ahead. I beg you, please do. The less people that are asking dumb question because they dont know what they are doing (this is understand, but at least look) or are too lazy to look for it the better.
[/end paraphrase]

@OP:You are right most of times, however you can see many people making posts/threads without reading anything. For a MOD/ADMIN who see this again and again and again, I can assume that will be pissed.
More over if some one reads a stickie about flashing and has no idea why/how for his own sake please do not proceed and brick/destroy the equipment.

@OP careful your going to be iron fisted.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium

One thought on the search function. It works fairly well if you take the time to learn it. My only suggestion is to investigate removing or lowering the required wait time between searches. I am wondering of the additional load on the system from more searches would be less than the load caused by creating a new thread after the initial search failed to provide expected results and frustration set in.

Rumbleweed said:
One thought on the search function. It works fairly well if you take the time to learn it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you start typing a search in the box is your default "titles only"?

mb02,
I understand and appreciate the "search first" rule; and I actually agree that a temp-ban for breaking forum rules is appropriate. What is inappropriate is dishing out smug keyboard-lashings. Someone creates a new post asking something that's been covered a million times before? "Sorry, you've been temp-banned for violation of forum rules. Please read these two threads (blahblah) to understand why and help you become a quality contributor. Hope to see you back."
Not, 'Is the search bar missing, or are you just an idiot? Disconnect your router, crawl in a corner, and die.'
Also, who doesn't have a job that involves dealing with frustrating people while remaining civil?
Moderation is important. Enforcing forum rules is important. Stuff like this, "if you can't use google, rid yourself of the Internet, save yourself the trouble, and save us from you. Welcome to Earth." is disrespectful garbage. I'm an adult with an education, job, and family. If you spoke like that to me in person, we would have an issue.
Jerdog,
I actually already read both of those before I joined -- and they did help me better understand XDA's history. I'm not defending the entitled, "this isn't working, fix it," and "when is the next release???," etc. crowd. Far from it. Those people are guilty of the same disrespect I'm so tired of seeing, and I'm glad the moderators stay on top of that. I know I get tired of reading development threads to figure out how the guys are doing on a particular project and wading through a soup of worthless posts (following the "Virtuous Galaxy" rom development in the Iconia forum was a perfect example of this).
I can only imagine how annoying that is for Mike, Gnufabio, Roach, Rothnic, et al. (That said, I also doubt these guys would be as amazingly prolific as they are if they didn't know that thousands of us non-dev muggles love and appreciate their work.)
If XDA is in fact a place to "learn and share knowledge" (and I hope I eventually can absorb enough know-how from these guys to make and share something of my own...even if it's just a simple framework button/battery mod), that abhors "disrespect, rudeness and fun-ruining"...why so much of that from moderators? It seems Iron Fist simply flipped the script on who gets to be rude. (Again, I have no issue with closing/moving threads and forum housekeeping.)
But this kind of stuff: "Wanna leave? Go ahead. I beg you, please do" ?
Why would you be that hostile?
I understand that this is a free, could-be-invite-only forum, I don't have to pay a thing to use it, XDA has more registered users than it wants, and you have every right to tell me to pound sand. But why would you? I've been learning here, and do my best to share my limited knowledge (even it it means PMing someone the thread that would help them solve their issue because the thread is closed and I can't post in it).
Keep the Development sub-forum limited to the dev elite, but if people stick around (in the General and Questions sub-forums) and learn because their first misstep was corrected respectfully (rather than brutally), maybe they'll be developing a popular rom or theme in a year or two!

rpavich said:
When you start typing a search in the box is your default "titles only"?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I almost always use Advanced search. Much more effective.

Because honestly.......Abuse seems to be the only thing that slows the creaping tide of every n00b who jumps on here with his new device and want s to be spoon fed every detail on rooting and roming and theming and overclocking.....etc.....etc....
Instead of looking for the answer they just keep starting new threads for every little issue they have. This is not a customer service forum.

Agree on the advance search. took me a moment to realize the "titles only" option.
However, if im not on my computer its damn near impossible to search anything on the tablet. Anytime i click the search button, it opens, and quickly closes. Not form friendly..
I dont know.
And not trying to derail the conversation here but i have tried different browsers and classic xda option. So, sometimes in a dev thread with over 200 pages, searching isnt an option.
Not XDAs prob. I know. Just saying

Search can take time and hardly ever gets me to where I need on the first try. Fortunately I am on all day, every day flipping through forums so what really works for me is simply searching for my username+search term. Helps narrow down threads I've been in and looking for.
I do think Mods can be "too hostile" sometimes. A simple "Thread Closed" works or "Moved to Appropriate Forum".
It would be nice if threads could be "CLOSED" by users once a solution is found

DaveRichardson said:
If XDA is in fact a place to "learn and share knowledge" (and I hope I eventually can absorb enough know-how from these guys to make and share something of my own...even if it's just a simple framework button/battery mod), that abhors "disrespect, rudeness and fun-ruining"...why so much of that from moderators? It seems Iron Fist simply flipped the script on who gets to be rude. (Again, I have no issue with closing/moving threads and forum housekeeping.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mod Edit: I am an idiot and I cannot properly structure an argument without resorting to vulgar language.

KoNP said:
Uh, yeah... you didn't realise that was precisely the reason they did it?
Moderators have no real power or achievements outside of the little boxes they push around on here. Iron Fist will slowly kill this place - all that'll be left are a bunch of power-crazy gits and the toolbags who clamour to fellate them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ahhhhhhh.....someone sounds a little butthurt

jerdog said:
Read the Policy Announcement to get a feel for why XDA is here.
Also the XDA MANTRA
(begin paraphrase from a former Senior Moderator)
This is not a site to make people popular. I don't care how many people use a specific kernel/ROM/mod/hack/bicycle - act like a fool and demand something from a developer who has put their time and energy and effort - and you deserve to be called out for it. The rules are here for a reason. You either follow them or leave, your choice.
What XDA is:
XDA is a developers site
XDA is a free forum you are ALLOWED to use. We could make it invite only
XDA is and always will be about the developers. And before you say without the users there would be no XDA, Bull****, who do you think used the stuff before normal people even knew what a smartphone was......wait for it.........other developers. People that could give good feedback with relavent info. Not just "dahhh this is broken, please fix".
What XDA is NOT:
XDA is not a place to come and make your phone cool.
XDA is not the cool place for idiots to hang out.
XDA is not your friends house
XDA is not a democracy
XDA is not a place to make Money.
XDA IS a place to come to learn and share your knowledge. If you are not here for those reasons then you are here for the wrong ones.
XDA has become a place where every dumbass in the world has a smartphone and comes here thinking they have the right to anything. Well guess what? You dont have the right to s**t. We share it because we want to and we dont if we dont feel like it. Are the Developers or the Mods required to make you happy? Nope not in the least. Wanna leave. Go ahead. I beg you, please do. The less people that are asking dumb question because they dont know what they are doing (this is understand, but at least look) or are too lazy to look for it the better.
[/end paraphrase]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. Thread closed.
This is a development forum, not an end-user support forum. Although many developers are kind enough to answer questions regarding their releases, this is in no way expected from them. Also, development sections must be kept clean in order to allow our valued developers to do what they do without the intrusion of noobish "entitled" attitudes.
If you have a problem with the way the XDA moderation team handles the forums (either general or more specific), you have two choices: you can either leave or you can message MikeChannon, our forum administrator, to suggest a different modus operandi. This thread is useless and off topic, as it's not even peripherally related to the Transformer.

To all Android newcomers on XDA:

Hi there.
If you're new to Android, how about you actually figure out the OS before you go ***** in the forums to developers?
People seem to think that XDA is a place to go get updates for their phone, and then complain about how it has problems.
It isn't. Developers don't owe you squat. They put out what they WANT to put out. XDA is a development forum, made by developers for developers. If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.
Also, people tend to ***** about problems that they caused themselves. For example, I see people complaining in kernel threads about how they undervolted their phone by -75mv in SetCPU and then complain about how they got a freeze or a SoD and proceed to ask the developer to "fix kernal pl0x".
If you mess with system settings, take a second to think that what you're doing *might* be causing problems.
If you DO have a legitimate problem, take a second to think that someone else might have the problem. Search the thread and check if someone else has the same problem. One thing that is somewhat recurring is people saying "herp I'm too lazy to search 5 pages in the thread". If you're too lazy to click your mouse a few times, kindly consider driving off a cliff.
Also, fun fact, did you know that every time you ***** about battery life a baby seal drowns? True story.
Let your battery go through 2 charge cycles, check for wakelocks on your phone with BetterBatteryStats. If all else fails, consider charging your phone overnight. It's not like you live in an Amazonian forest with no power and need your smartphone to last for a month without charging. Go buy an old Nokia if you need your battery to last long.
Here's another thought: try to make your post even remotely readable. Use proper English, it helps us actually understand whatever you're trying to say.
Spare us all headaches and use your common sense.
Here's some more reading material: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=19643797&postcount=5298
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leech_(computing)

Good point well made.

Well said - although I might have said in more gentle terms But there is no doubt whatsoever that any settings, ROM flashing, kernel flashing etc. is at the users own risk and no developer can be held responsible for any damage!
Isn't it possible somehow to make a checklist for new users that are important before they mess around? As they are new we got to help them in order to avoid the "stupid" questions.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium

Agree with you that XDA is a Developers forum
But on a side note I am sure Devs like that their work is appreciated and in turn I am sure it motivates them to continue working towards better roms and stuff.
I have seen most Devs on XDA take it as creative criticism and always try to get work arounds preety quickly which is think is super brilliant.
You can't stop people *****ing around its each person's nature and I guess we can just ignore them and carry on with the good things that XDA has to offer us.
Besides N00bs will be Noobs - I still am and grateful for XDA Dev's and Members for their Support
Still a Good Point made...

While I agree with most points made, I should also point out the obvious point that without users there's no need for developers. I'm sure the developers would like people to make use of their work.
Also, while searching in theory is nice, sometimes it doesn't work. A problem can be described in many ways. I fully support that users should search before asking, but don't be too hard on people who ask. Some may have searched and failed to find relevant answers.

Totally agree. But with android selling like wild fire the noob intake will increase like crazy. Call it pure laziness to be honest lol.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium

Logi_Ca1 said:
without users there's no need for developers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol.... looks like you really know how this site started..

As i said on a previous thread temporary bannings need to start being issued should people come on and start asking questions which have been answered dozens of times before, i don't know if it's possible in the registration process so newbies can be informed that they need to use the search function first and foremost for any questions where they will most likely find the answer to their questions and only if they cant may then then start a thread where they will most likely get plenty of assistance,when i first joined it was nowhere near as bad as it is now, it's quite painful coming on here sometimes and looking at the same old questions day in,day out.

@OP- Read this before you spread your smart advices to others.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
Forum definition: A public meeting place for open discussion.
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I also may add when i first joined or rather a few weeks before i registered i done a bit of reading on XDA to try and familiar myself with some of the topics and jargon used as i didn't really have a clue about anything like this, but back to my original point, use the search function and chances are it will bring up something that your looking for at this stage i cant think of anything that hasn't been covered on here with regard to the SGSII.

ithehappy said:
@OP- Read this before you spread your smart advices to others.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
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You see, forums are made to discuss specific things. This particular forum was made to discuss development for Windows Mobile and Android. Therefore, we should keep discussion specific to development. And I'm pretty sure development talk isn't "FIX KERNAL PL0X BATTERY DRAINZZ!".
But then again, what do I know.

Maybe a little aggressive, especially to new members, I understand the point being made, but I like many others have come here to ask for advice and share my finding with other like minded android users, some of the advice I've found most useful has been from other new members with similar issues and questions. Be careful not to frighten new folks off. I've seen threads like this destroy forums in the past. It's all about the wording, and coming across friendly, but allowing folks to understand how the forum works. From what I've read, there are plenty of warning on the rooting and firmware threads, so users have been warned before they try anything vaguely risky. There will always be those who don't heed the advice, but those folks ain't likely to read this thread. Anyhoots peace to all, as this a great place.

so unfriendly. everybody started off as noobs, including developers.

Seifer1975 said:
so unfriendly. everybody started off as noobs, including developers.
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I'm not bashing noobs, I'm telling them to stop being idiots.

I agree with the op.
Each time I have come accross a problem, it has been remedied by returning to the developer's thread to follow the instructions properly, along with taking on board what tips fellow members have said in the assosiated thread.
If I can figure that much out -which isn't rocket science- then I am sure that other should be able to. If only we lived in 'should land'.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

At this point I'm glad that we still have developers here. I couldn't develop my way out of a hostage situation, but am willing to:
Follow the instructions,
Search if I have a problem,
Verify that I did indeed follow the instructions,
Provide a detailed description of problem if I can't rectify,
Present the developer with any info they may need to diagnose (logs, etc...),
Respect the distinction between Q&A and development,
When it doubt watch the video again, you're a noob f-stick and so am I,
Don't piss and moan when I have an issue, I elected to not have a stock phone, nobody held a gun to my head, but if you piss and moan it makes me want to hold a Kalashnikov to yours: search, contribute, learn to troubleshoot.
The Me Generation, need I say more?

I've been sickened keeping up with the siriya thread at the amount of people asking dumb questions too. It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
I work retail and I barely barely have enough free time or energy to keep up with playing with my galaxy s. I have no idea how these developers even do it.
People need to learn some respect for these amazing guys. But I guess the amount of noobs will only ever increase. So I guess the devs will need to adapt.
Anyway, one reason I'm posting this is because it's my 10th post and this allows me to go and post my thanks in the syriya thread!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

Logi_Ca1 said:
While I agree with most points made, I should also point out the obvious point that without users there's no need for developers. I'm sure the developers would like people to make use of their work.
Also, while searching in theory is nice, sometimes it doesn't work. A problem can be described in many ways. I fully support that users should search before asking, but don't be too hard on people who ask. Some may have searched and failed to find relevant answers.
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Well that's one of the things. Developers don't do it just for people to use it. They do it for learning, testing, and fun. There were custom roms for smartphones when only other developers used it. Did that stop them? Nope we got great things like Cookies Hometab and MaxSense. Everytime I hear "without users their would be no developers" I just have to sit back and say "really what do you think we have been doing on XDA for years before the average user even knew what a smartphone was?"

There is a lot of pointless stuff posted on xda now, often by people who show no respect for the fact that everything here is free of charge. The price of free is that you do a little legwork & read the threads before posting crap like "help i bricked my phone" or "why don't you take the softkeys off the ics gui" which must have been asked 3000 times, when will you release it, which is the best rom? etc.
The admins asked for suggestions last year on how to manage the influx of new members. I didn't suggest anything so I now reap what I sowed. I do have some suggestions now though; let the devs, admins and people with something to download start new threads for free and make the people starting helpdesk or spammy type threads pay, use a keyword or keyphrase blocklist to stop people who can't be bothered to read or who want to ask unreasonable questions from clogging up the threads.
Xda now has adverts so obviously the more the merrier for revenue but if the target is quantity over quality the mods shouldn't complain when they go and clean all the spam out of threads, instead they should just say thanks for your spam please call again soon.
So what is the aim, quality or quantity?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

umadbro?!?!?!

reinstatement of developer status

to the moderators xda. what is developer? it is some1 who takes something and strides and makes it better hence Dorimanx. why was his status as dev taken away?
i know the argument is that he took parts from other members and improved upon them, but hey isnt that what every 1 that has developer status on xda has done? no dev on this site has created or builta rim for our hd2s on their own tyrung, raphiga etc etc they have all taken something that was originally googles and improved upon it whether sense, gingerbread or ics. they have taken improved code from other devs or google and made changes to it. or have taken roms from devs that stopped working on them and improved them.
So why then were their developer status not removed?????
if that is the case then no 1 on xda are really developers they are all senior members.
and if as u claim they are regonised developers then u as moderators of xda have no option in my opinion but to REINSTATE DEVELOPER STATUS TO DORIMANX............
if not then you in all conscience have to take away DEVELOPER STATUS FROM ALL DEVS ON XDA.

... +1 ... it's a shame ...

+1 but there is usually more to these stories than appears.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using xda premium

Maybe it has something to do with Dorimanx calling the kernal his own..!
Everyone uses things created by others but give credit.
But who am I to say maybe it is completely his own.
I did like his roms though..

shanman-2 said:
Maybe it has something to do with Dorimanx calling the kernal his own..!
Everyone uses things created by others but give credit.
But who am I to say maybe it is completely his own.
I did like his roms though..
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all kernel devs do same u dont see teds+gingers+coles3.1.1kernel just the name of who publishes kernel and compiles it together not the name of devs who solved and wrote code for different snippits used in kernel yet they still keep dev status and quite frankly a lot of those devs can be quite obnoxious, rude and contempious and not answer questions unlike dorimanx who always answers and tries to solve problems for us.
UNLIKE THE MODERATORS WHO DEEM THAT THEY DONT HAVE TO ANSWER ANYTHING AND NOW SEEM TO BE A LAW ONTO THEMSELVES!!!!!!

maddoc1007 said:
to the moderators xda. what is developer? it is some1 (someone) who takes something and strides and makes it better hence Dorimanx. why was his status as dev taken away?
i know the argument is that he took parts from other members and improved upon them, but hey isnt that what every 1 (everyone) that has developer status on xda has done? no dev on this site has created or builta (built a)rim (rom) for our hd2s on their own tyrung, raphiga etc etc they have all taken something that was originally googles (Google's) and improved upon it whether sense, gingerbread or ics. they have taken improved code from other devs or google and made changes to it. or have taken roms from devs that stopped working on them and improved them.
So why then were their developer status not removed?????
if that is the case then no 1 on xda are really developers they are all senior members.
and if as u (you) claim they are regonised developers then u (you) as moderators of xda have no option in my opinion but to REINSTATE DEVELOPER STATUS TO DORIMANX............
if not then you in all conscience have to take away DEVELOPER STATUS FROM ALL DEVS ON XDA.
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Really? Well... What if I told you why it was removed. There is more to life than the HD2 forum, and in this case, there were issues in the Galaxy S 2 forum, pertaining to making unfounded and false allegations against another developer.
At XDA we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title. In this case, going around making false (and very serious) allegations against other developers is NOT acceptable. For this reason it was revoked, although a user subject to this can appeal and it will be dealt with suitably.

gazzacbr said:
+1 but there is usually more to these stories than appears.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using xda premium
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Correct.

maddoc1007 said:
all kernel devs do same u dont see teds+gingers+coles3.1.1kernel just the name of who publishes kernel and compiles it together not the name of devs who solved and wrote code for different snippits used in kernel yet they still keep dev status and quite frankly a lot of those devs can be quite obnoxious, rude and contempious and not answer questions unlike dorimanx who always answers and tries to solve problems for us.
UNLIKE THE MODERATORS WHO DEEM THAT THEY DONT HAVE TO ANSWER ANYTHING AND NOW SEEM TO BE A LAW ONTO THEMSELVES!!!!!!
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May I ask how we are a law unto ourselves? We do answer to you (reply within 24 hours to your question is pretty good going), and I have explained the circumstances above.

pulser_g2 said:
Really? Well... What if I told you why it was removed. There is more to life than the HD2 forum, and in this case, there were issues in the Galaxy S 2 forum, pertaining to making unfounded and false allegations against another developer.
At XDA we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title. In this case, going around making false (and very serious) allegations against other developers is NOT acceptable. For this reason it was revoked, although a user subject to this can appeal and it will be dealt with suitably.
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So, from what I gather from both your reply, and this from dorimanx:
"""there was an small war with one more dev.
i was wrong about my clame.
and got insolted many time, from him and his friends, i have apologise, after i found i was wrong, but my title just removed"""
is that he said something in the wrong, then the person he wrongly called out, instead of solving the issue reasonably both him and his friends laid down a **** storm of insults and what-not (I assume here there was equally insulting return-fire), after finding out he was in the wrong, he apologized, but his title was still removed...
am I correct in assuming that none of the persons involved on the other side even got warning? (after-all, I got a warning because someone said something was not possible many times and I not-so-polity told them to bugger off... and then a week later what I requested was posted in the developer section....)
also can I assume that he can appeal his title revocation? he states after-all he did apologize, and he is after-all ACTUALLY a developer with much praise and admiration for his works...
Why not a warning instead of title pull? or temp ban or something? Telling a dev he isnt a dev is a bit more then insulting if you ask me...
*This is going on just what you both have said, if you wished to add more information to the pot, or point out the fiasco for others to read to understand better, I am all for it, but what I have written above is just from my reading both your and his statements on the subject... and despite the "you weren't involved, dont say anything" montra that presents itself when I choose to post this, I have long thought he deserved his Dev title... (especially since hes been given it once before... even though that was a community wide mistake)

Hammerfest said:
So, from what I gather from both your reply, and this from dorimanx:
"""there was an small war with one more dev.
i was wrong about my clame.
and got insolted many time, from him and his friends, i have apologise, after i found i was wrong, but my title just removed"""
is that he said something in the wrong, then the person he wrongly called out, instead of solving the issue reasonably both him and his friends laid down a **** storm of insults and what-not (I assume here there was equally insulting return-fire), after finding out he was in the wrong, he apologized, but his title was still removed...
am I correct in assuming that none of the persons involved on the other side even got warning? (after-all, I got a warning because someone said something was not possible many times and I not-so-polity told them to bugger off... and then a week later what I requested was posted in the developer section....)
also can I assume that he can appeal his title revocation? he states after-all he did apologize, and he is after-all ACTUALLY a developer with much praise and admiration for his works...
Why not a warning instead of title pull? or temp ban or something? Telling a dev he isnt a dev is a bit more then insulting if you ask me...
*This is going on just what you both have said, if you wished to add more information to the pot, or point out the fiasco for others to read to understand better, I am all for it, but what I have written above is just from my reading both your and his statements ont he subject....
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There's more to the issue than that.
In order to properly investigate the claim, I did what any developer would do upon seeing that claim - take the original sources he made the allegation against, and then rebuild them from scratch, testing ONLY the change alleged to cause the issues.
This is a fundamental and basic step, and it demonstrated there was no issue with the sources being posted by the other developer.
I'd ask you, is it acceptable to go around making inflammatory remarks and comments against another developer, ACCUSING them of breaking the GPL (when in fact they are adhering to it beyond what is even required, pushing commits that are not released yet)? What if someone did that to your preferred developer? Wouldn't this be a thread of "OMG STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLE, HE INSULTED OUR FAVOURITE DEV"?
There was ample chance given to resolve the issue amicably, and the accusatory tone used against another developer was not acceptable. Furthermore, missing out on fundamental steps such as checking your own allegations out fully (by testing with clean, unmodified builds) is quite fundamental.
I did say he can appeal it, and he has contacted me with regard to that, and it will be dealt with in due course.
I'm surprised at you asking about that though - would you rather we temp ban him? I somehow don't think many people would agree with you.
Finally on regard to "telling a dev he isn't a dev", that is not what RD is about - RD is about the best examples of professional standard developers on XDA. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer. It's a privilege, not a right. And not every developer has it (many do not wish to have it, and have declined to apply even when suggested). It's something that's open to apply for, but people must be at the required level of skills and act in the right manner. If either of these changes, then their status can be reviewed.

re re reinstatement of dev to dorimanx
i have read the explanation from pulser but am somewhat dismayed by his reply shots were fired it seems from both sides, rude or derogatory they may have been but an apology was issued by dorimanx. my amusement stems from why when other devs on xda rant and rave at members for asking questions and call them stupid or thick and other inflamatory remarks you do not take their dev status from them
A we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title.
your words above but yet iv not seen u or other moderators reprimanding those devs or taking their titles of them.
. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer.
more of your words but i have seen from thdeads on here the way ordinary decent people on here are treated and disrespected maybe their english is not too good or they are new and dont know their way around xda or maybe a threas is a few hundred pages long and they cant find what they are looking for and they ask a question. then lo and behold a dev tells them they are 2 stupid to look or too ignorant to.find it themselves or other worse remarks. is that not being disrespctful and NOT FOLLOWING YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT. yet ye take no action against them? as a result of the way people are insulted on here iv seen in threads where membera have said that they are leaving xda over the insults to them. so where were the moderators then and. why werent those devs titles taken??. read through your dev threads and you will see plenty of examples of this.
therefore it is not an even playing field for members here on xda and os if you want to throw me off xda so be it but until you clean up your act on xda you cant make 1 law for some and another law for others

pulser_g2 said:
There's more to the issue than that.
In order to properly investigate the claim, I did what any developer would do upon seeing that claim - take the original sources he made the allegation against, and then rebuild them from scratch, testing ONLY the change alleged to cause the issues.
This is a fundamental and basic step, and it demonstrated there was no issue with the sources being posted by the other developer.
1 ) I'd ask you, is it acceptable to go around making inflammatory remarks and comments against another developer, ACCUSING them of breaking the GPL (when in fact they are adhering to it beyond what is even required, pushing commits that are not released yet)? What if someone did that to your preferred developer? Wouldn't this be a thread of "OMG STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLE, HE INSULTED OUR FAVOURITE DEV"?
There was ample chance given to resolve the issue amicably, and the accusatory tone used against another developer was not acceptable. Furthermore, missing out on fundamental steps such as checking your own allegations out fully (by testing with clean, unmodified builds) is quite fundamental.
I did say he can appeal it, and he has contacted me with regard to that, and it will be dealt with in due course.
2 ) I'm surprised at you asking about that though - would you rather we temp ban him? I somehow don't think many people would agree with you.
Finally on regard to "telling a dev he isn't a dev", that is not what RD is about - RD is about the best examples of professional standard developers on XDA. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer. It's a privilege, not a right. And not every developer has it (many do not wish to have it, and have declined to apply even when suggested). It's something that's open to apply for, but people must be at the required level of skills and act in the right manner. If either of these changes, then their status can be reviewed.
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1: TBQH, if a dev came into the dev thread for dori's HD2, and pulled the same thing, and then WE as users and HIM as a developer played the whole two year old fighting game, you can bet your arse I would expect you to put everyone on "time-out" that fired off "conduct not inkeeping" with the expected conduct of the open source community (as you put it), dori and any of us users that participated as well! Additionally, I wouldn't request a title be stripped, because to the users of XDA as a whole, RD might as well just be D, and lets face it, I see far more users here then developers. However as I said, even if one was at fault, if both sides where participating in the argument and insults and "bad conduct", I MYSELF would still punish both sides, even a warning is still more tactful then removal of a title and normally a warning shunts people before it would warrant a ban or title revocation.
2: It was a suggestion made "in passing", and sometimes, people need a few days or even a week to cool down, but your right, not many people would agree with me, but it was throwing out something other then removing a title that IMHO at least, has been deserved by dori for the longest time...
Im not ignoring the rest of your comment btw, I am not a developer, but I am a user and a PC Builder/Tech both as a hobby and a job, and I advocate "full wipes" or "clean testing environments" whenever I play with new rom's, fix issues on customers computers, or even encounter error's myself, so I see the fault in calling out an issue, prior to a "scrub test" as I like to call it myself, and i kinda went into the RD issue in 1: so ill leave it at that
maddoc1007 said:
i have read the explanation from pulser but am somewhat dismayed by his reply shots were fired it seems from both sides, rude or derogatory they may have been but an apology was issued by dorimanx. my amusement stems from why when other devs on xda rant and rave at members for asking questions and call them stupid or thick and other inflamatory remarks you do not take their dev status from them
A we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title.
your words above but yet iv not seen u or other moderators reprimanding those devs or taking their titles of them.
. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer.
more of your words but i have seen from thdeads on here the way ordinary decent people on here are treated and disrespected maybe their english is not too good or they are new and dont know their way around xda or maybe a threas is a few hundred pages long and they cant find what they are looking for and they ask a question. then lo and behold a dev tells them they are 2 stupid to look or too ignorant to.find it themselves or other worse remarks. is that not being disrespctful and NOT FOLLOWING YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT. yet ye take no action against them? as a result of the way people are insulted on here iv seen in threads where membera have said that they are leaving xda over the insults to them. so where were the moderators then and. why werent those devs titles taken??. read through your dev threads and you will see plenty of examples of this.
therefore it is not an even playing field for members here on xda and os if you want to throw me off xda so be it but until you clean up your act on xda you cant make 1 law for some and another law for others
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you make a good point, and I hope the mod reads it, I have seen many dev's for rom's and mods who definitely don't follow any "code of conduct" I have ever heard of, but I have NEVER (and I stress this in only my experience as a User of but a few ROM's) seen a user have his/hers title revoked, and I used to follow links and frequently browse XDA before I registered...
Now in saying that, its possible its due to a lack of "report"ing occurring, and with the latest fiasco regarding the E3D people have become "report" crazy and if it proves true, I should expect to see more "RD" and other "higher then senior member" accounts demoted
Ive noted before, Ill note again, I "assume" things being ok with making an ass out of myself, its part of the learning process, and I have to thank the mod for replying to me/us and taking the time to help us out as supporters of the user turned dev demoted user instead of outright closing the thread. Oh, and I am just a USER... dont taze me bro... (im a bit drunk, forgive me, I just had to...)

The biggest part of being a big open source community, or any community for that matter, is collaborating and the ability to tolerate mistakes. If nobody makes mistakes than the community is not evolving since there is nobody participating.
That being said, the bad blood which came across both Dorimanx and the other developer is a part of an active community, and it has been proven to be the only way somebody can truly learn; this is the main reason you have authority (moderators) present.
IMO stripping one user from his title but leaving the other is unfair prejudice, its like saying, "you were both wrong in your act, but he was wrong-er".
As a moderator, I suggest you ask yourself what is your message to the community, do you want more people participating but in a mannered, polite way or do you want people being afraid to challenge somebody?
As I see it, if you came here to learn, you ought to make mistakes; its a collaborative effort not a memorial for those who already know "everything" and came here to boost their ego, or am I wrong?

As a Retired Senior Mod and since i was involved in Dorinmax issue, i could say more about but this will be not fair against XDA, period.
XDA have rules and you are expected to follow them even if you are ERd, RD, RT, RC or a Mod, you cannot use a pubblic thread to make accuses, troll or to partecipate in a flaming war hence you will be punished with infraction points and/or ban and this happened in that case but yet i disagree with easy titles revoking and as said here, many other so called devs should be without the title.
The moral of the story is: When you have a problem or if you see any issue, contact you Forum Specific Moderator or any Senior Moderator, these people are doing a great job and they are always ready to help or to suggest how to address the problem in the better way.

maddoc1007 said:
to the moderators xda. what is developer? it is some1 who takes something and strides and makes it better hence Dorimanx. why was his status as dev taken away?
i know the argument is that he took parts from other members and improved upon them, but hey isnt that what every 1 that has developer status on xda has done? no dev on this site has created or builta rim for our hd2s on their own tyrung, raphiga etc etc they have all taken something that was originally googles and improved upon it whether sense, gingerbread or ics. they have taken improved code from other devs or google and made changes to it. or have taken roms from devs that stopped working on them and improved them.
So why then were their developer status not removed?????
if that is the case then no 1 on xda are really developers they are all senior members.
and if as u claim they are regonised developers then u as moderators of xda have no option in my opinion but to REINSTATE DEVELOPER STATUS TO DORIMANX............
if not then you in all conscience have to take away DEVELOPER STATUS FROM ALL DEVS ON XDA.
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Thanks man, you have stirred a bit o' thought.......
Sent from my HTC HD2 using xda premium

Looking again at this thread..do not politics come into everything that's worth talking about!
Sent from my Nexus One using xda premium

shanman-2 said:
Looking again at this thread..do not politics come into everything that's worth talking about!
Sent from my Nexus One using xda premium
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thats the crux of it all no wonder so many great developers have left xda!!

Such is life in the virtual world and the real world ta boot .. .LOL,
Sent from my Nexus One using xda premium