Database Users

Will money be the downfall of open Android development?

It's a serious question.
When I released the MghtyMax series of Sense ROMs, I made it a point not to ask for donations. Not just because the bulk of the framework of those ROMs were Maxisma's code, but because I wanted to freely take as much knowledge as I was giving to the community.
I knew there were users who would want to give, and even got IM's asking where to send money. I always instructed them to send that money to their local food bank or homeless shelter.
Now that Klick has been tarred, feathered, and carried out of town on a pike, I must ask:
Assuming for a moment that Klick was guilty of copying other people's code (and I'm certainly not saying he is guilty, especially since I have not properly reviewed any evidence against him) would anyone have said word one if he hadn't been including a donation link in his posts?
There are some very successful developers here that have tens of thousands of users of their ROMs. At least one likely has over 100k users. Those users add up to a lot of donations. We're not talking chicken scratch here, but the potential to generate some serious capitol.
As with any business venture, an individual or company will go to great lengths to defend their income stream. When you are talking about proprietary designs, and copyrighted intellectual property, it's only natural for the owner of said designs or property to defend their work from imitation, alteration, and redistribution under a different brand/name.
However, we're not talking about private intellectual property here, are we? No, we're talking about open source code, released by the Android Open Source Project under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 generic license.
Even if he was indeed guilty of using someone else's base code, there was no law broken. So why all the hubbub?
Honestly, I think it was money.
When there is the potential to make thousands, tens of thousands, or possibly even hundreds of thousands of dollars in "donations", people are going to become very possessive of their "market share".
If donations to developers didn't exist, my guess is none of this bickering would be happening at all. One developer could happily take another dev's code, modify it, re-release it, and another dev could come along and modify that.
Nobody would complain because there would be nothing to lose. Developers would be releasing code for the sole purpose of enhancing the development community, instead of lining their pockets with currency.
Why would anyone care, as long as the code was being enriched, and the end result was better programming for all? Wasn't this the point of open development?
I know this post will be very unpopular with some, but I think we've let the money changers overrun the temple. I think this trend of asking for donations will only slow the open development of code, and encourage those with large followings to do what ever it takes to crush perceived competition.
The above paragraph may have just made me the pariah of the entire development community, but I really don't give a damn. I honestly believe the community would be far better off without money being involved at all. It is because of this belief that I encourage the management of XDA to permanently ban all requests for donations, be they for ROM development, APP development, or any other purpose.
I firmly believe that by removing money from the equation, we will see a much more rich and diverse development community, with developers willing to enjoy an open exchange of ideas.

But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
Then toy have the people who download a rom from elsewhere, change the build.prop, maybe theme it a little if they are bored, upload it elsewhere and say "Hey donate for my work on the rom" when the reality is its not their work, nor are they worth (most of the time) running.
I think people are complaining about people in the third group, not the first two.

I've been trying to figure out what all this craziness has been about in the dev forum. I literally only browse it for my own personal selfish reasons. To get the best roms and enjoy my G1.
At the end of the day Mghtyred is ultimately right. Regardless of stolen code or not, it's all free and open source. I could definitely understand how this could upset a lot of people, but that cracks me up. I'm going to go out on a really safe looking limb here and say that most people that frequent these forums are probably pirates and download stuff constantly. But when it comes to money in their own pockets then the situation change drastically. That kind of hypocrisy is disgusting.
Especially when it leads to someone getting booted over something ultimately so petty as far as the internet is concerned. Just a bunch of egos fighting over the spotlight. Which is ultimately pretty useless when in reality the vast majority of the people who actually use your roms don't care who made it, they just want the best one out there.
Isn't money always the downfall of everything? Unfortunately it looks like it's really starting to take it's toll on this community. I'm a very new Android user but since day one of coming to these forums I always knew something sinister was up but I just had no idea why.
Perusing most threads in the dev forum, especially on the first page of each thread, you end up seeing mostly character assassination attempts being made at the thread poster. "You didn't do this," "that isn't yours" but all those comments meant nothing to us new guys or the guys that only cared about the end product, the roms.
Basically what I'm saying is, internet, I love you but get over yourself.

I'm mostly a lurker, I don't post very much here, mostly due to the fact that I'm not an Android dev...
Having been member of various MOD communities since the late 90's, it's not just the donations/money that devs are worried about (though, donations/money IS a problem), it's all about bragging rights and "being known" or "popular" in the community. When someone spends any significant amount of time working on projects such as these, they want to be recognized within (and outside of) the community as the one(s) who brought the project to life... When someone downloads your work, makes a few insignificant changes and then releases it as his own work, the original dev(s) have the right to be angry... I'm not saying ALL devs are like this (many simply do not care to be known within the community, they just want to help), but many of them are.
I for one am thankful for all the hard work devs do, if it wasn't for them, we'd be stuck with the stock ROMs... Groups like Cyanogen's team are what a community should be, everyone putting their ideas/changes/fixes into 1 big pot to make the best ROMs possible, instead of having 20 different ROMs from various devs... Although yes, choice is good, it also limits the quality of the ROMs in question, if there was 3-4 core groups with 4-5 devs in each group all working together to bring excellent ROMs to the table, we'd be much better off.
It just seems that people don't get what a community is all about, it's to share ideas/code so we ALL benefit from it, devs and users alike.
Of course, this is just my humble opinion, different communities have different ideas/people who make these communities what they are.

Well, in my opinion Android is open-source.. Yes. But when people use skills that they have to improve on Android development for our older phone is just peachy.
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
Most people seem to think he is innocent as Android is open source, open source yes but, we have rights to those codes, then when people release their modified/hacked version its alright (open source affect). As I said above the problem begins when people take other people's work and label it as their own.

Blackman778g said:
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
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Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?

dezvous said:
Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop

vixsandlee said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop
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So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.

People need to get off of their "Open Source" high horse if they don't understand the law.
AOSP is open source (at least most of it, there are still several necessary blobs), and the code there is freely available to anybody. However, the work produced from AOSP is anything but free.
Most of AOSP is released under a very permissive Apache 2.0 license. Under this license, any modification to the code is the property of the programmer to release as they wish. Had I wanted it that way, I could have released my whole build under a very mean license that would relentlessly pursue anybody who dared post even a single part of my release anywhere else. If one of those md5s matches, there'd be problem.
Also, the license allows me to release the rom without having to release the source (like the GPL does), so basically, Android is free and open source, but only referring to the code you download from AOSP, not any half-assed code that any random joe puts up online. So, from that standpoint, NO, ANDROID IS NOT OPEN SOURCE AND EVERYBODY'S PROPERTY.
Also, how can somebody let the "Open Source" and "people's property" and "law" words out of their mouths when they take no heed to the shameless stealing of google's, htc's, and qualcomm's (plus others') IP that's being pushed ON EVERY SINGLE ROM, WINMO, ANDROID, OR ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS WHOLE FORUM!!!!.
I dare anybody to show me their license to re-distribute all code from all involved companies.
"But, android is free, isn't it?"
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Guess what an android build with nothing but free parts would look like?
Remember those broken SDK builds where nothing worked, there was no radio, no gapps, no audio?
That's the current state of "open source"...
It has nothing to do with the state of the legality of distributions. In fact, the whole thing is ridiculous, for example, where a certain mod who I won't name went on a holy quest against QuickOffice calling it "warez" but shamelessly ignored that pretty much everything else on the Dream forum, hell, on the whole site, is nothing but a big stinking pile of warez. I still wonder what that one was about...
vixsandlee said:
But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
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Here's the real problem with XDA; all those people thinking "Oh devs are some sort of god, they make the best things, we're not worthy, I'm dumb and I can't contribute, so I'll just send some money".
Guess what? Now you're really being stupid. Any dumb chap can put the effort, with enough dedication, to make their own personal builds. Most of us doing this are geeks, a lot of us are a-holes, and I could assure you that the vast majority of us could give two f**cks if that thing you flashed is boot-looping even though it worked for us. As far as we're concerned, you screwed up and should have read better.
We weren't born tied to a computer. We had to work for what we know, and if you people want to be a retard and give money for something easy, then that's up to you, but you all really have to stop that dumb attitude that "devs" are somehow better than you. Only difference is that this is where we decided to put our interest at.
Now, this brings me back to topic. So, what if some guy took my build. I could have done something about it. I certainly did have the legal ease to do so. Turns out, I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other. You people are paying too much attention to trivialities. You're trying to put this on some sort of clash of the giants where guys are either good guys or bad guys. You're judging a "dev"'s personal qualities based on the quality of their work. If they pull up an underhanded, kangilistic build, then you judge them.
I can assure you that the makers of the most "stable", most "fastest", most popular build out there are as much douchebags as you, me, or anybody else is.

Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.

It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.

lbcoder said:
It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.
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I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?

So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.

dezvous said:
So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.
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It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").

I thought we were mostly pissed because he only "deved" until he got enough money for a new phone, then just quit. When he needed the next new phone, here he comes again. Never really kept up with King and his shenanigans. Honestly, all his builds sucked to me. They all bootlooped if I didn't have apps2sd. Nty.
macsbac said:
I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?
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Yes, quit talking about the guy likes he's ****ing God. Excuse my french, but everyone acts like cyanogen fell from the sky on a golden comet from Mars. He's a great dev, no doubt, and I'm not bashing him. However, he is a human, you know that, right? If he ever stole source and claimed it as his, I'm sure the mods would do their job and the same thing would happen. However, that's not the case here and that argument of "if he did it i bet nothing would happen" should have died out in fourth third grade.

lbcoder said:
It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").
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This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.

A lot of interesting posts here, I'm enjoying this discussion. Glad I started it.

macsbac said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.
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You really got the wrong end of the stick and ran with it. Calm down. KingKlick is no loss to this community, we can all use winzip.

macsbac said:
So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.
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Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
macsbac said:
Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.
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Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?

Blackman778g said:
Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
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As for the reason, i have evidence he intentionally copied at least 2 Roms from respectable Android developers, renamed the and called them his own.
I dont have time, due too work, no internet at work
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Strange that because the moderators are only questioning two ROMs. The only one they mention is that of Jebah's and he has made his position quite clear repeatedly. Yes many, many ROMs from most developers do not credit others and its not a problem unless the creator of the original ROM complains as per rule 12.
Blackman778g said:
Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?
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Really the truth
He isn't banned at the moment, for later today, will be sending him a PM to open a thread in PUBLIC and explain himself.
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Again KingKlick was clearly locked a day before any moderator even PM'd and the moderator in question Mikey1022 clearly let his intentions be known before KingKlick was asked to explain, before Jebah made any complaint and then made some bogus allegations about donations as an excuse to break the forums own rules.
Why public?? For the simple reason.........he kept shoving a donation link in every thread he created, unlike the other developers, he copy-catted from.
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Despite KingKlick being forced to put a donation link into every signature as defined in xda rules. Effectively Mikey1022 is punishing KingKlick here for following xda rules.
We can not/should not allow developers coping roms, collecting money on others hard work. As he calls it his own.
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Yet I want Mikey1022 to post a quote or link to where KingKlick called this ROM his own. Or where he asked for a donation for this ROM specifically. Somehow I think he will fail to respond to this post as the others when I asked the same questions.
A couple mods on here know about King and his crap he has been pulling off, so it's not a big surprise.
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Then the clear bias continues and the decision to ban KingKlick was pre-empted before any sort of truth was established. The main one being Jubah had no problem with KingKlick using his ROM and did not raise any concerns with an XDA moderator. As such no rule was broken and issue should have been dropped in lines with xda rules. Again who raised the complaint? nobody knows. For the extreme public castration of KingKlick Mikey1022 and his fellow mods have kept quiet, why have they not even told the community what KingKlicks punishment is or given any reason for it?
Do you think its a coincidence that this complaint was apparently raised when KingKlick refused to become butt buddies with cyanogen or be on "team douche". That cyanogen lost the bap with a post full of explicit language used in a direct insult in violation of xda rules. No public castration there though and I have to ask why? Then I can ask why some of cyanogens dogs of can admit to starting flame wars directed a KingKlick for a sustained period of time and yet this clear violation of rules led to no public castration. How further after 3 days of flaming and direct insults firerat even as good as admits his aim is to remove KingKlick from the xda community yet again no public castration there.
These people say KingKlicks ROMs are just renamed zips that's ok but as a 32b owner and constant ROM flasher why do KingKlicks roms always run better on my device than the others.
Its almost unbelievable that a forum I have been following for a while now can allow a group of developers to exclude another developer from an open source project. Its much more vile than anything KingKlick has been accused of. The moderators of this forum should be hanging their heads in shame.

a reminder to the armv(k)-team

May I remind the armv(k)-team to this section of the forum rules from xda-developers:
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result what is ‘ok’ to say in your part of the world may not be ok in someone else’s part of the world. Please think about who is reading what you write. Keep in mind that what you think of as acceptable use of language may not be acceptable to others. Conversely, while reading member posts, remember that word you find offensive may not be to the writer. Tolerance is a two way street.
2.2 Nudity: XDA is used by people of all ages, including minors. It's not acceptable to post nude/pornographic imagery, which includes exposure of the male or female genitalia or of female breasts.
2.3 Flaming: XDA was founded as a group of people sharing information about certain mobile phones. Sharing does not involve virtual yelling (flaming) it does involve working together to solve problems in an environment of mutual respect and understanding. Losing your temper and flaming another member, or group of members, is not acceptable behavior.
2.4 Personal attacks, racial, political and/or religious discussions: XDA is a discussion forum about certain mobile phones. Mobile phones are not racial, political, religious or personally offensive, therefore none of these types of discussions are permitted on XDA.
2.5 New Members: Treat new members the way you would have liked to have been treated when you were a new member. Provide the new members with guidance, advice and instruction always with respect and courtesy.
2.6 All members are expected to read and adhere to the XDA rules.
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No need to flame others over your apocalypse rom. It is, after all, just another rom and nothing special that will change the world.
None of your "features" are exclusive to your rom and there's absolutley no reason for *****ing around like that.
I also may quote rule#10:
10. Help others if you can.
If you see posts from others where you can help out, please do. This place exists because people are helping each other, and even if you are relatively new to the matter, there's probably already quite a few people newer than you that would benefit from what you've learned. Don't be shy.
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I don't know about you, but sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about, right?
It's not about fame...
If all this Linux/Android stuff was closed-source, e.g. the developers wouldn't share the "how to" then you wouldn't be able to build a custom rom in the first place. None of this knowledge is exclusively yours.
What do you think you are? Privileged nobility?
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but you didn't invent any of this, did you?
You copied what you saw elsewhere. And exchanging a "b" for an "a" doesn't make it "your" work...
And next time you pirate some movie or mp3 from the internet (I know you will), please think about your reaction!

mokopokko said:
May I remind the armv(k)-team to this section of the forum rules from xda-developers:
No need to flame others over your apocalypse rom. It is, after all, just another rom and nothing special that will change the world.
None of your "features" are exclusive to your rom and there's absolutley no reason for *****ing around like that.
I also may quote rule#10:
I don't know about you, but sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about, right?
It's not about fame...
If all this Linux/Android stuff was closed-source, e.g. the developers wouldn't share the "how to" then you wouldn't be able to build a custom rom in the first place. None of this knowledge is exclusively yours.
What do you think you are? Privileged nobility?
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but you didn't invent any of this, did you?
You copied what you saw elsewhere. And exchanging a "b" for an "a" doesn't make it "your" work...
And next time you pirate some movie or mp3 from the internet (I know you will), please think about your reaction!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hope they read this

I do not agree. They have seen their work posted before release, from unknown guy. Anyone would go upset.

No. They always said things like "if you want jit and cannot wait, search the internet like we did."
Someone did and found their method.
Owned.
And I don't think that a standard feature of android can be claimed as "their" work.
If they don't want "their" work to be used, they should program their own android without gpl license...
If everybody thought like this none of this stuff that makes android so much better than for example ios would exist.
It's just the wrong attitude.
And btw, they also ripped themes and images without giving proper credits at first.
"whoops, forgot to mention the original creator"
But no one complained.
Now it's their work that gets "compromised" and they act like total jerks.
I dunno....either you wanna share your stuff and expertise like it is ment or you build your own rom just for yourself without bothering others.
Noone really needs a custom rom and noone has to provide one.
Everything that has been achieved already more than we accepted when we bought a g3 with 2.1 as is...

I cant speak in the name of my other members in term of the cursing part
I always was clean in my words, never said bad words
But in that from other parts "Sorry"
I dont mind sharing stuff or anything as said before
The only thing is people taking credit on other peoples work, its not about fame its about been correct
The files got corrupt, so we will never know the truth, but i think that has been settled
THe main problem here was someone that got the coding before release and sent it out behing our back
Nuff said
Best Regards
Motafoca

Dude. First stop reminders and start helping people. Look at your post count. Dont try to be smart. Next be a developer and then you will know how it pains when some one stole your months hard work and sleepless nights. So better stop posting and start helping.
MOD: Please review this thread and delete.

Your work was leaked by your own team. You said the last time to everyone: "if you want JIT then search for it". Someone has done that found your leaked version and has shared this with us. So you can't just come in here like rudolf and start yelling and offending on everybody who wanted JIT. If something is leaked by your team members its NOT right to blame the Community for that.
After all, thank you for JIT.

shadow7582 said:
Your work was leaked by your own team. You said the last time to everyone: "if you want JIT then search for it". Someone has done that found your leaked version and has shared this with us. So you can't just come in here like rudolf and start yelling and offending on everybody who wanted JIT. If something is leaked by your team members its NOT right to blame the Community for that.
After all, thank you for JIT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dont you get it!
We stopped it! You fools are starting it again! man you guys are like dirty filthy crabs! pulling our legs to your dirt all the time!
"shadow7582" BEAT IT! go get some fresh air!

mokopokko said:
No. They always said things like "if you want jit and cannot wait, search the internet like we did."
Someone did and found their method.
Owned.
And I don't think that a standard feature of android can be claimed as "their" work.
If they don't want "their" work to be used, they should program their own android without gpl license...
If everybody thought like this none of this stuff that makes android so much better than for example ios would exist.
It's just the wrong attitude.
And btw, they also ripped themes and images without giving proper credits at first.
"whoops, forgot to mention the original creator"
But no one complained.
Now it's their work that gets "compromised" and they act like total jerks.
I dunno....either you wanna share your stuff and expertise like it is ment or you build your own rom just for yourself without bothering others.
Noone really needs a custom rom and noone has to provide one.
Everything that has been achieved already more than we accepted when we bought a g3 with 2.1 as is...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
100% agreed

EdisDee said:
100% agreed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
KID. who the hell are you. I dont know why you are jumping in. You said 100% agree and breaking rules.

No more smart people here. Dont make it complicated.

"Dude" why don't you mind your attidute?
No offense intended, merely stating out facts. If you don't like it, don't like it.
And wtf has my post count to do with all that? Who sais that I'm not an better developer than you? My post count? Come on, give me some credit.
I don't try to be "smart", I try to be resonable.
I think it's not just me that is somewhat annoyed with your attitude.
Because it's against the basic idea.
It's not development related, so I posted it here. You don't want my oppinion. Don't read it.
So better stop flaming innocent people, start reading the forum rules (you obviosly need to, no matter your post count or position inside the community) and then work on your kernel or whatever.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your work and am looking forward to it, but I don't like your "policy".

Mokopokko
The persons involved arent complaining, dont come here and troll with other peoples stuff
If the people involved want to complain fine, but you dont have nothing to do with it
Go find something else to do

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot this is your topic.
It's not primarily about your guys work being leaked (believe it or not: you're not the most important parts of my life), I was merely intending to make you guys think about this "freedom of knowledge", "sharing" and "community" thing.
I don't know why you start to insult me.
If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss. It's really that simple.
If noone wants to comment on this thread, noone will and it will be on page 2 tomorrow.
I don't think it's trolling at all.
Flaming on the other hand is defenitly what you guys are doing.

I repeat the same to you. why are you reading and overposting. You are acting smarter now. If you have problem go complain to mods and let them take action if some thing is wrong. Who the hell are you to remind us. If you dont like shut u r as. No big deal. You are breaking forum rules by posting nonsense and wasting our time.

I think only one thing, we must be grateful to this guys for their free work. Here many of us can search on internet and copy the work of others but few know how to do it.
I'm waiting for yours rom since I have seen the announce of Apocalypse.
Then good work and thank you ARMV team.
Edit: sorry for my bad english
Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk

warning to all
hi
a warning to ALL no flaming this thread is closed if any more of this is happens them some one is gona get a Ban pls dont force me to do so
THREAD CLOSED

Keeping it real

Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
- XDA is a space meant for collaboration and sharing information. Use it for that
- XDA is not a chat room. Posts just to thank or put down another user do nothing to help its purpose (There is a reason for the "Thanks" button).
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything.
- USE THE SEARCH TOOL and HAVE A LOOK AT A FEW PAGES of the thread of interest before posting the question .Likely you will find your answer and it helps PREVENTING threads from reaching the aforementioned 300+ pages, of which maybe like 30 pages actually contain INFORMATION.
- REMEMBER that what you are getting, you are getting for free. That applies both to stuff developed and put up on XDA, be it ROMS, tweaks, patches, whatever and to the wonderful people behind XDA - moderators, etc... whose work is often forgotten. If we as users can't be expected to read through all posts in a forum, why should we expect mods to have to act as if they had the time to do this?
- Having said that, if you like a development/tip/tweak, whatever, use the thanks button and leave it at that. If you don't like something, leave it at that. Posts to the effect of "You are God" or "You sleep with the devil" do nothing but mess with egos. And this forum is about messing with mobile computing platforms, not egos.
TO MODERATORS
- Please refrain from deleting threads. If they get out of hand (and they sometimes do) I humbly suggest that you (a) close them and/or (b) ban any offending users, albeit if only temporarily (aka "suspension").
For all the crap that may have gotten into a thread, most if not all threads contain a lot of useful information that may/will get lost if the thread is deleted. so the non-guilty parties get shafted as badly as the guilty. And I prefer to think that the majority of users are actually interested in moving things forward.
- Just an idea - but rather than having a simple requirement to have an account to post, would it be possible for you guys to set up a system whereby certain forums could only be posted to by users of a certain seniority - and preferably with a distinction to starting new threads or replying to existing threads.
Following on to this, I believe that the seniority requirements can be improved in a relatively easy way - maturity comes from experience, which is not necessarily related to # of posts (any fool can type 30 irrelevant posts in a day). What would you say to a system where, in addition to a minimum # of posts, a user needs to have been a member/at his previous seniority level for a certain amount of time? That should not be too difficult to implement and would help people get into the feel of things before blabbing off. Short tempers usually can't hold off a couple of weeks/months...
- THANKS for this great place!!!! Your efforts are too often forgotten.
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi

"
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything."
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
If people respect the rules then good things happen
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them

as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad

-PiLoT- said:
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
-PiLoT- said:
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.

acmbc said:
Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
yes but sometime sits the steps that people need to take since people will not read the rules
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the last lot of threads were closed not deleted

Crocodile1973 said:
as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
some posts are deleted during a routine thread cleanup

Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past

-PiLoT- said:
Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kudos to that. If it's been tried and not worked, my bad.

acmbc said:
Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
TO MODERATORS
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?

svtfmook said:
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Trip's work, heck, I even use it on my phone these past months.
There's a post I made in "News about current circumstances" thread that explains my point extensively.
Also, I know it in my gut that he will be back for sure.
You know why?
He feeds on publicity and Modaco forums are too low-populated for his huge ego.
I hope though, that upon his return he will be much more sophisticated and reasonable,
for the sake of every one here.
One can always dream...
PS: I was a 14 year old girl 10 years ago and, man, I'm telling you, I was a major drama queen.
I want to believe I've grown out of it though.

I really think the ideas from the original post would be used in some way at least. Good post OP. Hope xda considers this. There are some great ideas here.
Sent from my X10i using XDA Premium App

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
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Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

To all Android newcomers on XDA:

Hi there.
If you're new to Android, how about you actually figure out the OS before you go ***** in the forums to developers?
People seem to think that XDA is a place to go get updates for their phone, and then complain about how it has problems.
It isn't. Developers don't owe you squat. They put out what they WANT to put out. XDA is a development forum, made by developers for developers. If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.
Also, people tend to ***** about problems that they caused themselves. For example, I see people complaining in kernel threads about how they undervolted their phone by -75mv in SetCPU and then complain about how they got a freeze or a SoD and proceed to ask the developer to "fix kernal pl0x".
If you mess with system settings, take a second to think that what you're doing *might* be causing problems.
If you DO have a legitimate problem, take a second to think that someone else might have the problem. Search the thread and check if someone else has the same problem. One thing that is somewhat recurring is people saying "herp I'm too lazy to search 5 pages in the thread". If you're too lazy to click your mouse a few times, kindly consider driving off a cliff.
Also, fun fact, did you know that every time you ***** about battery life a baby seal drowns? True story.
Let your battery go through 2 charge cycles, check for wakelocks on your phone with BetterBatteryStats. If all else fails, consider charging your phone overnight. It's not like you live in an Amazonian forest with no power and need your smartphone to last for a month without charging. Go buy an old Nokia if you need your battery to last long.
Here's another thought: try to make your post even remotely readable. Use proper English, it helps us actually understand whatever you're trying to say.
Spare us all headaches and use your common sense.
Here's some more reading material: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=19643797&postcount=5298
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leech_(computing)

Good point well made.

Well said - although I might have said in more gentle terms But there is no doubt whatsoever that any settings, ROM flashing, kernel flashing etc. is at the users own risk and no developer can be held responsible for any damage!
Isn't it possible somehow to make a checklist for new users that are important before they mess around? As they are new we got to help them in order to avoid the "stupid" questions.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium

Agree with you that XDA is a Developers forum
But on a side note I am sure Devs like that their work is appreciated and in turn I am sure it motivates them to continue working towards better roms and stuff.
I have seen most Devs on XDA take it as creative criticism and always try to get work arounds preety quickly which is think is super brilliant.
You can't stop people *****ing around its each person's nature and I guess we can just ignore them and carry on with the good things that XDA has to offer us.
Besides N00bs will be Noobs - I still am and grateful for XDA Dev's and Members for their Support
Still a Good Point made...

While I agree with most points made, I should also point out the obvious point that without users there's no need for developers. I'm sure the developers would like people to make use of their work.
Also, while searching in theory is nice, sometimes it doesn't work. A problem can be described in many ways. I fully support that users should search before asking, but don't be too hard on people who ask. Some may have searched and failed to find relevant answers.

Totally agree. But with android selling like wild fire the noob intake will increase like crazy. Call it pure laziness to be honest lol.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium

Logi_Ca1 said:
without users there's no need for developers
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lol.... looks like you really know how this site started..

As i said on a previous thread temporary bannings need to start being issued should people come on and start asking questions which have been answered dozens of times before, i don't know if it's possible in the registration process so newbies can be informed that they need to use the search function first and foremost for any questions where they will most likely find the answer to their questions and only if they cant may then then start a thread where they will most likely get plenty of assistance,when i first joined it was nowhere near as bad as it is now, it's quite painful coming on here sometimes and looking at the same old questions day in,day out.

@OP- Read this before you spread your smart advices to others.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
Forum definition: A public meeting place for open discussion.
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I also may add when i first joined or rather a few weeks before i registered i done a bit of reading on XDA to try and familiar myself with some of the topics and jargon used as i didn't really have a clue about anything like this, but back to my original point, use the search function and chances are it will bring up something that your looking for at this stage i cant think of anything that hasn't been covered on here with regard to the SGSII.

ithehappy said:
@OP- Read this before you spread your smart advices to others.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
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You see, forums are made to discuss specific things. This particular forum was made to discuss development for Windows Mobile and Android. Therefore, we should keep discussion specific to development. And I'm pretty sure development talk isn't "FIX KERNAL PL0X BATTERY DRAINZZ!".
But then again, what do I know.

Maybe a little aggressive, especially to new members, I understand the point being made, but I like many others have come here to ask for advice and share my finding with other like minded android users, some of the advice I've found most useful has been from other new members with similar issues and questions. Be careful not to frighten new folks off. I've seen threads like this destroy forums in the past. It's all about the wording, and coming across friendly, but allowing folks to understand how the forum works. From what I've read, there are plenty of warning on the rooting and firmware threads, so users have been warned before they try anything vaguely risky. There will always be those who don't heed the advice, but those folks ain't likely to read this thread. Anyhoots peace to all, as this a great place.

so unfriendly. everybody started off as noobs, including developers.

Seifer1975 said:
so unfriendly. everybody started off as noobs, including developers.
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Click to collapse
I'm not bashing noobs, I'm telling them to stop being idiots.

I agree with the op.
Each time I have come accross a problem, it has been remedied by returning to the developer's thread to follow the instructions properly, along with taking on board what tips fellow members have said in the assosiated thread.
If I can figure that much out -which isn't rocket science- then I am sure that other should be able to. If only we lived in 'should land'.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

At this point I'm glad that we still have developers here. I couldn't develop my way out of a hostage situation, but am willing to:
Follow the instructions,
Search if I have a problem,
Verify that I did indeed follow the instructions,
Provide a detailed description of problem if I can't rectify,
Present the developer with any info they may need to diagnose (logs, etc...),
Respect the distinction between Q&A and development,
When it doubt watch the video again, you're a noob f-stick and so am I,
Don't piss and moan when I have an issue, I elected to not have a stock phone, nobody held a gun to my head, but if you piss and moan it makes me want to hold a Kalashnikov to yours: search, contribute, learn to troubleshoot.
The Me Generation, need I say more?

I've been sickened keeping up with the siriya thread at the amount of people asking dumb questions too. It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
I work retail and I barely barely have enough free time or energy to keep up with playing with my galaxy s. I have no idea how these developers even do it.
People need to learn some respect for these amazing guys. But I guess the amount of noobs will only ever increase. So I guess the devs will need to adapt.
Anyway, one reason I'm posting this is because it's my 10th post and this allows me to go and post my thanks in the syriya thread!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

Logi_Ca1 said:
While I agree with most points made, I should also point out the obvious point that without users there's no need for developers. I'm sure the developers would like people to make use of their work.
Also, while searching in theory is nice, sometimes it doesn't work. A problem can be described in many ways. I fully support that users should search before asking, but don't be too hard on people who ask. Some may have searched and failed to find relevant answers.
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Click to collapse
Well that's one of the things. Developers don't do it just for people to use it. They do it for learning, testing, and fun. There were custom roms for smartphones when only other developers used it. Did that stop them? Nope we got great things like Cookies Hometab and MaxSense. Everytime I hear "without users their would be no developers" I just have to sit back and say "really what do you think we have been doing on XDA for years before the average user even knew what a smartphone was?"

There is a lot of pointless stuff posted on xda now, often by people who show no respect for the fact that everything here is free of charge. The price of free is that you do a little legwork & read the threads before posting crap like "help i bricked my phone" or "why don't you take the softkeys off the ics gui" which must have been asked 3000 times, when will you release it, which is the best rom? etc.
The admins asked for suggestions last year on how to manage the influx of new members. I didn't suggest anything so I now reap what I sowed. I do have some suggestions now though; let the devs, admins and people with something to download start new threads for free and make the people starting helpdesk or spammy type threads pay, use a keyword or keyphrase blocklist to stop people who can't be bothered to read or who want to ask unreasonable questions from clogging up the threads.
Xda now has adverts so obviously the more the merrier for revenue but if the target is quantity over quality the mods shouldn't complain when they go and clean all the spam out of threads, instead they should just say thanks for your spam please call again soon.
So what is the aim, quality or quantity?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

umadbro?!?!?!