Coming from a Nexus my only question about the epic is where's all the RAM?!
The nexus had 512mb too and I had almost 300mb free on boot. This thing is in the 100s and drops to 50ish after a few apps loaded! What's up with that?
Yea I came from a nexus too, and sorda wonder same thing. But I can say dk17 ran snappier than the nexus... but froyo is now slower and laggier than the nexus...
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Welcome to bloatware. That is why we all want asop. With all the junk sprint loads on the phone even if you do not use it has a damn service running in the backround. Take a look. Download autokiller if you have root and set it to the 150 range and that will keep your ram in that range speeding up the phone.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
no, it's because not all of the 512mb in the epic is system ram
don't know the exact numbers, but there is also shared vram and stuff like that using the 512mb
I am wondering the same.I am always in the 50s
Every time I am on the browser, and switch over to a text
Or even press home, I tap on the browswer and it has to reload all over again.
Lame that it doesn't stay in memory.
My evo did not suffer from this.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
816jared said:
no, it's because not all of the 512mb in the epic is system ram
don't know the exact numbers, but there is also shared vram and stuff like that using the 512mb
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm ya I was wondering that... but even the Nexus had that with the stock rom. I'm not sure if it was kernel optimizations or just the simple fact of the extra process running.
Even if you kill al processes it still doesn't go anywhere near where the nexus with compiled roms.
anyone have any luck porting cyanogen's codebase? I saw a few threads on it but sounded to me like the project was dead
Is there a way to edit the allocation of the 512MB of RAM? There must be a way to give more to the system.
When official froyo is released, I want to start a thread that deals with the Running Services, what they do, and what the ramifications are for each one if its stopped and disabled from running. I have a feeling that a lot of these running services do not need to be running. CM_Service, the voicemail service, is one example.
arashed31 said:
Is there a way to edit the allocation of the 512MB of RAM? There must be a way to give more to the system.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty sure the allocation is handled at the kernel level so stopping services and crap will never achieve the total ram if it isn't compiled properly.
Related
running pancake 1.5c without sense and the new apps2sd with gbhil's custom kernel i have 110mb free ram and 146mb free internal storage.
i also have about 35 apps installed.
how about you guys?
Running fresh 2.0d with rosie and launcher2 removed, I just use helix. a2sd with about 80+? apps, dalvik cache not on SD. And I average around 80 mb free RAM during the day. And 90+ after a recent reboot.
Sent from my HERO200 using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
Oh yeah, well I've got a 2TB Hard drive and am only using 2MB of it!
Around 80mb usually.
abcdfv said:
Oh yeah, well I've got a 2TB Hard drive and am only using 2MB of it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lots of room for porn then buddy!
fixxxer2008 said:
lots of room for porn then buddy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But then I wouldn't have any free space. What's the point of having a 2TB harddrive if I'm just going to fill it up? I'd rather be able to brag about how it's not getting used.
abcdfv said:
But then I wouldn't have any free space. What's the point of having a 2TB harddrive if I'm just going to fill it up? I'd rather be able to brag about how it's not getting used.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how much did you pay for a 2tg hdd?
I don't actually have a 2TB HDD. I'm using it as a point saying "I bought a device with X amount of storage, and doing everything in my power to not use any of it."
It's basically the same as having 4GB of RAM, and only using 1GB of it. 3GB is completly wasted. Empty RAM does not benefit anyone, nor does any free space. If it's empty, it's wasted.
abcdfv said:
I don't actually have a 2TB HDD. I'm using it as a point saying "I bought a device with X amount of storage, and doing everything in my power to not use any of it."
It's basically the same as having 4GB of RAM, and only using 1GB of it. 3GB is completly wasted. Empty RAM does not benefit anyone, nor does any free space. If it's empty, it's wasted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the more ram the faster your phone or pc will run.
Explain to me how. Cause I can explain a hundred different ways how that's wrong, to a point.
abcdfv said:
Explain to me how. Cause I can explain a hundred different ways how that's wrong, to a point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even in computers empty RAM is wasted. Most people don't seem to realize that the reason more RAM speeds up a computer is because that RAM is USED by programs instead of the hard drive. If you have 8gb of RAM and only ever use 4, you've wasted 4gb of RAM because it's sitting there doing nothing, instead of being filled with programs/cache information/etc.
It's similar with the phones. If the RAM is sitting there idle because it's not being used for anything it's just...sitting there. It makes more sense to fill it with something than leave it doing nothing, which is the point I believe abcdfv is making.
smw6180 said:
Even in computers empty RAM is wasted. Most people don't seem to realize that the reason more RAM speeds up a computer is because that RAM is USED by programs instead of the hard drive. If you have 8gb of RAM and only ever use 4, you've wasted 4gb of RAM because it's sitting there doing nothing, instead of being filled with programs/cache information/etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd kiss you, but don't know where you live. Huzzah for me not being the only one to get it.
abcdfv said:
I'd kiss you, but don't know where you live. Huzzah for me not being the only one to get it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*shrug* Too many people think 'more is better'..they're wrong.
As for kissing me...my wife would get mad, so..
smw6180 said:
*shrug* Too many people think 'more is better'..they're wrong.
As for kissing me...my wife would get mad, so..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nah, she could join in.
http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/
That article goes well beyond talking about free memory, but it does explain exactly what abcdfv and swm are saying. Unused free memory means nothing.
flipzmode said:
http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/
That article goes well beyond talking about free memory, but it does explain exactly what abcdfv and swm are saying. Unused free memory means nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I still think you should add my explanation of how Linux handles RAM/Swap differently then Windows to that.
Then why is it helpful to manipulate minfree settings?
I suppose it could be placebo but I swear I've found a sweet spot between stock settings and aggressive where my phone runs better than at either extreme. Am I misunderstanding that by your rationale the phone should run just as well at stock settings than any other?
The reason you might be seeing an increase in performance is the "free" RAM is being temporarily utilized when using the phone. The more free the more potential for the phone to use it, but having 124 mb free is most likely useless, the OS will most likely never use that much by itself.
I'm with the others, free is wasted, but that doesn't mean try to max it out, because spikes in usage will take up more than what the phone will report when you check it.
I sit at 50
I understand and have always known having a ton of free space is a waste.
But having not enough can be a problem. I just read a post from a sprint admin stating "dont let your ram get to 15 or 20mb because it will cause issues, specially with voicemail and messaging."
I really doubt anything major (not gunna hurt the phone), but problems with everyday use.
Just saying.. Not that any of you run that low anyways
I just got my droid 2 in the mail today and I'm disappointed, to say the least...first off I'm comin over from tmobile where I've had nearly every phone they have released over the last 2 years. The first thing I thought when I booted this droid 2 was how familiar evrything looked. Then I realized they put motoblur on it(boo!). So I feel like I'm using a moto cliq again...I thought that since this thing has a 1 ghz processor it would run a lot smoother than the cliq, but that has not been the case. It takes almost 10 seconds for the camera to open which is unacceptable. It hangs up doing the simplest things, such as opening and closing the app drawer. I planned on getting the droid x, but after reading several side by side comparisons, I decided on the 2. I hate to say this but I'm really thinking I made the wrong choice. I believe this to be a nice piece of hardware, just not right for me....
Anyone have any suggestions to make my experience better? I'm open to rooting but only if there is a 100% fully functional rom out there...my last tmobile phone is a vibrant and I don't know if you guys are aware of what's gone on over in those threads the last few days, but its been interesting to say the least
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
I would have to say....take it back and get the fascinate
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
What happened? I heard ebait8 had a hoax, no clue what of. You guys got the official 2.2 leak. Bunch of threads got closed. What happened?
From a phone on an app
boborone said:
What happened? I heard ebait8 had a hoax, no clue what of. You guys got the official 2.2 leak. Bunch of threads got closed. What happened?
From a phone on an app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hoax...not sure. But there was suddenly a fully functioning 2.2 rom. Its very nice. Working everything. Takes the vibrant to the next level...I wanted to get away from tmobile for a while and as SOON as I commited to verizon, BAM!! But I have 30 days to send this phone back. I probably will. I installed launcherpro and its very smooth, but I don't like to use a 3rd party app to make my phone work the way I think it should...my vibrant is a trooper...
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
There are a few great ROM's floating around here that are waaaaay better than stock. I'm running Fission (I really like it!) right now but There's a new one by Matt4542 coming soon that's supposed to be AOSP so check 'em out and flash a few and see if you like it with overclock before you take it back.
newk8600 said:
There are a few great ROM's floating around here that are waaaaay better than stock. I'm running Fission (I really like it!) right now but There's a new one by Matt4542 coming soon that's supposed to be AOSP so check 'em out and flash a few and see if you like it with overclock before you take it back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sweet! I'm pretty sure that this thing would be a beast overclocked to 1.2! And I remember that its the dam blur launcher that lags, and its dumb! Does wireless tether work on this thing if you root? Without paying the 2o to verizon?...
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
Is the internal memory on this thing read only? When I hook up to my computer I can open the external and transfer files but only look at the internal...or am I missing something?
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
mikeyinid said:
Is the internal memory on this thing read only? When I hook up to my computer I can open the external and transfer files but only look at the internal...or am I missing something?
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Um not sure I can't remember what it's like to not be rooted. lol.
I think you either need to be rooted or use ADB.
As for launcher's I've heard good things about LauncherPro but I use ADW. and Home switcher to set my choice to default (so the home soft key doesn't go back to stock.
You can wireless tether for free but as of yet the only infrastructure mode (as opposed to Ad-hoc) you can get is through the Verizon app but thankfully someone found out how to hack it. (check the Droid 2 Information Directory in Android Development for the D2)
Hey guys, so I rooted and bought one of those overclocking apps from the market. I know that quads and linpack mean nothin to some people, but I like to use them to gauge my own phones performance. I overclocked to 1.2 and my benchmark went from 865 ms to 675. My linpack is almost 17. But, my quads are down to 800! What the hell is that about? Are those overclock apps just crap?
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
*EDIT: I rebooted and ran a quad...1627! thats what im talkin about! and i didnt even flash a rom or a kernel. My issue now is the internal memory is still read only. How do i fix that? Can it be fixed?
mikeyinid said:
*EDIT: I rebooted and ran a quad...1627! thats what im talkin about! and i didnt even flash a rom or a kernel. My issue now is the internal memory is still read only. How do i fix that? Can it be fixed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you at least read data with apps such as Gallery and Astro File Manager? On my Droid Incredible I can copy pictures and ringtones from my computer directly to the internal memory (emmc), but with the Droid 2 I can only mount the SD Card. This is kinda annoying...I've been searching old threads but haven't found an answer.
I can move them between internal and external sd, but that's a freakin headache. On my vibrant when I mount sd to computer, I get two windows that open and I can transfer directly to internal from pc. I can't believe they (motorola) really give you 8 gigs for apps only. Everything is saved to external by default. Except apps.
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
Are you serious??? Wow, I'm glad I decided to stay with the Dinc as my main phone. So do you use any particular app for moving stuff between internal and the SD card? Or you do it within an adb shell? I don't see the point of making the internal memory only available for apps...I would never need that many space for apps...I rather use it for music.
Androidnite said:
Are you serious??? Wow, I'm glad I decided to stay with the Dinc as my main phone. So do you use any particular app for moving stuff between internal and the SD card? Or you do it within an adb shell? I don't see the point of making the internal memory only available for apps...I would never need that many space for apps...I rather use it for music.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I use root explorer personally. Just cus it gives me access to everything. I barely use 100mb for apps so I see no reason to have 8 gigs for apps.
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
Cool. I guess for now I'll just forget that I have internal memory in the phone. I'm looking into building my own AOSP ROM, so this is something definitely looking into fixing
Androidnite said:
Cool. I guess for now I'll just forget that I have internal memory in the phone. I'm looking into building my own AOSP ROM, so this is something definitely looking into fixing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be awesome....so I overclocked to 1.45 this morning just to see what my battery life would be like and I notice no difference. Im not buyin this overclock app works as advertised. If my minimum is 400 mhz, there would be more battery used when the phone is sleep. That has been the case with every other phone at least.
Sent from my DROID2 using XDA App
After perm-root, is the rest of the NAND available?
joebobjoe said:
After perm-root, is the rest of the NAND available?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, simply rooting isn't going to magically open up the internal storage; that's why it's still listed as 1.1x GB after. The root just came out this morning; just like us patient people gave the devs to root, give them time to fiddle with the storage. They'll probably figure it out soon enough.
Fortunately the storage is still a crapload. I've gone from what... 1.16GB? stock to 1.1GB, and I don't see myself using the rest of it at all.
Yup, I don't even think I need all that space. Right now I have 888MB free, and that is with ALL my apps installed on phone memory, as I prefer not moving to SD Card...
I just wanted to ask, does moving to SD Card do anything other than free up space of the phone memory? If it does make stuff run faster etc, then only I see a reason to move apps to sd card..
Freeing up space is the only real benefit for Androids native apps2sd...
Apps2ext on the other hand, was really nice to have if you like trying out different roms.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
franky1029 said:
Freeing up space is the only real benefit for Androids native apps2sd...
Apps2ext on the other hand, was really nice to have if you like trying out different roms.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the G1 they where able to re-allocate memory from the GPU to the CPU to increase the speed of the G1 at the cost of 3D games. Believe Cyanogen did this, Yes, 1.x gigs is plenty BUT, what if the rest of the "4 gigs" could be focused on the GPU side of things to increase FPS? hehe Counter Strike on the G2..rofl Maybe using the other space for a full linux distro? a dual boot?
Dual Boot could be very nice, yes..
That actually sounds quite viable.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Sorry I'm new to the KF forums. I am having a hard time sifting through threads on tapatalk.
Has a way been discovered yet to unlock the boot loader? Will custom roms be possible such as CyanogenMod?
Thanks for the help and being understanding. If this has already been answered with a detailed thread, could someone please link me?
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Hmm...doing some more searching it looks like maybe it never had a locked bootloader?
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
downsay said:
Hmm...doing some more searching it looks like maybe it never had a locked bootloader?
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was never locked
It was never locked, if it was we would never have been able to get as far as testing recoveries or gingerbread builds.
death2all110 said:
It was never locked, if it was we would never have been able to get as far as testing recoveries or gingerbread builds.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So theoretically CM build with ICS should be possible?
I'm contemplating unrooting my Nook Tablet and returning it within my 14 day window and picking up the kindle fire. I am a little concerned with the 512 MB of ram vs. 1 gb on the nook tablet.
Has anyone noticed much lag/ do you think 512 will be limiting?
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Only lag is the amazon apps. Mine runs fine. Browser may lag a bit. but other browsers dont. So again...amazon apps.
512 is sufficient. The moto phones with 1gb of ram only have 512 usable by android. the other 512 is for the webtop crap.
IMHO 512 is fine for me.
OEMs need to quit convincing themselves they know how to create a UI better than google or the community. I have yet to see anyone that can and not make it unobtrusive, not annoying or not laggy. If they want to do that, they need to go the route of the market launcher apps like go launcher or adw and let users switch it out, instead of baking it into the device. Obviously Amazon would never do that because this device was intended by them to only serve up their content and no one else's (just looking at the way they removed settings from the OS gives that idea if the lack of google services did not). At least they did not lock it down to the point that someone cannot mod it
As stated, 512MB would be more than enough for anything other than what amazon did. If someone made stock version of android for it, this device would run great all around.
death2all110 said:
Only lag is the amazon apps. Mine runs fine. Browser may lag a bit. but other browsers dont. So again...amazon apps.
512 is sufficient. The moto phones with 1gb of ram only have 512 usable by android. the other 512 is for the webtop crap.
IMHO 512 is fine for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even on a larger screen than your smartphones do you still think 512 mb of ram is enough? How much does the iPad2 have? iPad?
Sent from my Nook Tablet using Tapatalk
I pad has the same. Remember, It's not a phone so it doesn't have all that crap like messages taking up memory.
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.
death2all110 said:
Only lag is the amazon apps. Mine runs fine. Browser may lag a bit. but other browsers dont. So again...amazon apps.
512 is sufficient. The moto phones with 1gb of ram only have 512 usable by android. the other 512 is for the webtop crap.
IMHO 512 is fine for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I read somewhere about how the stock browser has accelerated page loading turned on by default (possibly to mine data??). Once I turned it off, I got better results.
Hey everyone, some people are claiming that the latest update (the one after Lollipop) either fixed or drastically improved the memory management problems. If you recieved the update, can you share your experience with us?
I saw some threads about the RAM issue, but none regarding the update, so I decided to create this one. Looking forward for the answers.
I updated vía OTA file. It does improve memory management in my opinion, but i think it's not fully fixed. It closes apps sometimes. But its way better thsn before the update
feligoni said:
I updated vía OTA file. It does improve memory management in my opinion, but i think it's not fully fixed. It closes apps sometimes. But its way better thsn before the update
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you perform a factory reset after the update like some users recommend?
Yes it has been Improved,even after installing a lots of apps including Facebook,messenger,whatsapp,battery doctor,truecaller,gravity screen etc i am getting around 400-350 MB ram free...
Apps installed in Internet or external memory not in ram main point is when you get 350+ram this these are running in background?
ishubhamsingh said:
Yes it has been Improved,even after installing a lots of apps including Facebook,messenger,whatsapp,battery doctor,truecaller,gravity screen etc i am getting around 400-350 MB ram free...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At what point do apps start getting killed? Can you post a screenshot to show us your RAM usage?
mpeL said:
At what point do apps start getting killed? Can you post a screenshot to show us your RAM usage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only one app is there which I have seen automatically killed i.e. Google play music. Even on KitKat only this app was getting killed automatically, on any other app I didn't faced this kind of problem.I am also using KitKat developed by android x86 project on my dell laptop which has 3GB ram, even on that play music gets killed automatically.
mpeL said:
At what point do apps start getting killed? Can you post a screenshot to show us your RAM usage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's the screenshot
Memory management is much improved, but it still isn't entirely fixed.
I don't understand why people want so much free memory though. Do you guys realize that excessive free memory had a direct correlation to your apps to closing? You want as much memory used as possible while leaving just enough free to load new applications.
mcnutty said:
Memory management is much improved, but it still isn't entirely fixed.
I don't understand why people want so much free memory though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you do. What I don't understand is how Motorola sift through all the bull**** from people who have no idea how memory managent works under linux/android in order to decide whether the thresholds really are too aggressive or not.
mcnutty said:
Memory management is much improved, but it still isn't entirely fixed.
I don't understand why people want so much free memory though. Do you guys realize that excessive free memory had a direct correlation to your apps to closing? You want as much memory used as possible while leaving just enough free to load new applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think people really want tons of free RAM, they were just trying to avoid reaching the threshold (before the update). Apps on the foreground were simply getting killed even though there was a good amount of free RAM left, therefore people were leaving more free RAM available to avoid things like this, even though free RAM is useless.
By the way, thanks everyone for their replies so far
mpeL said:
I don't think people really want tons of free RAM, they were just trying to avoid reaching the threshold (before the update). Apps on the foreground were simply getting killed even though there was a good amount of free RAM left, therefore people were leaving more free RAM available to avoid things like this, even though free RAM is useless.
By the way, thanks everyone for their replies so far
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Free RAM is "headroom", it is not useless. Imagine trying to prepare a multi-course meal on a kitchen worktop with no free space to spread out and work (the worktop is an analogy to RAM) - having room to move is a MUST. That's basic programming knowledge - always dealloc (release RAM) when you're done with it.
gnubash said:
Free RAM is "headroom", it is not useless. Imagine trying to prepare a multi-course meal on a kitchen worktop with no free space to spread out and work (the worktop is an analogy to RAM) - having room to move is a MUST. That's basic programming knowledge - always dealloc (release RAM) when you're done with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And at the application level, Android decides which app you're most done with and kills the process, yeah... But caching when possible obviously improves performance and reduces power usage. People complaining that they only have 300MB of RAM free instead of 400MB should just go and buy a phone that is excessively powerful for their needs, lol.
rufflove said:
And at the application level, Android decides which app you're most done with and kills the process, yeah... But caching when possible obviously improves performance and reduces power usage. People complaining that they only have 300MB of RAM free instead of 400MB should just go and buy a phone that is excessively powerful for their needs, lol.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think Google need to investigate RAM compression, such as Apple do in Mac OS X now.
Memory management has definitely improved IMO. Less apps get killed, plus little or no reloading on chrome, so all in all, I'm reasonably satisfied with the update. But I think Motorola can even do better
Btw here's an article on the free RAM is wasted RAM issue.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=20163493&postcount=6695
Pretty insightful, to say the least.
mahendru1992 said:
Memory management has definitely improved IMO. Less apps get killed, plus little or no reloading on chrome, so all in all, I'm reasonably satisfied with the update. But I think Motorola can even do better
Btw here's an article on the free RAM is wasted RAM issue.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=20163493&postcount=6695
Pretty insightful, to say the least.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That "article" is just another XDA link. With respect, I'd like to see a credible article, not one from XDA itself. The author isn't even capable of basic, coherent grammar; if he can make mistakes at such a primitive level, SO early in the "article", I'll pass, thanks.
gnubash said:
That "article" is just another XDA link. With respect, I'd like to see a credible article, not one from XDA itself. The author isn't even capable of basic, coherent grammar; if he can make mistakes at such a primitive level, SO early in the "article", I'll pass, thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Judgmental much, and that too based on the level of english. Way to go.
lol, dude this guy is a respectable developer here on XDA. He sure know more than you do.
Oh and how about you answer my question on your troll post first.
mahendru1992 said:
Judgmental much, and that too based on the level of english. Way to go.
lol, dude this guy is a respectable developer here on XDA. He sure know more than you do.
Oh and how about you answer my question on your troll post first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"He sure know more than you do"
How can any one person know who "knows more" than another person, least of all a stranger? We all have different and unique levels of knowledge, over hugely vast and varying fields of interest.
I come to XDA to grab things I need, not for intelligent discussion, and you're serving to further affirm that decision is a rational one.
Bah, you're probably 15 years old... why am I trying to reason with you? :laugh:
mahendru1992 said:
Judgmental much, and that too based on the level of english. Way to go.
lol, dude this guy is a respectable developer here on XDA. He sure know more than you do.
Oh and how about you answer my question on your troll post first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jeeeez dude
Simmer down. The escalation in the tone of your opinion is way too steep :silly:
Try to maintain a level of tolerance before blarting out
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I was just pointing out that users wanted to have more free RAM because apps were getting killed when RAM was below ~150MB.
Also, please stop this useless argument you guys are having, ofending which other won't help at all.