Database Users

how much free program memory should I have?

I'm running Black Dymond 3.5 on my TyTN and I'm not sure how much free program memory I'm supposed to have.
I rarely have over 9mb of Program memory free. Total of 48mb.
I'm getting tons of crashes (like many other people), have tried either running everything on the storage card, or everything on the device. Either way I'm restarting at least 10 times/day, even crashing during phone calls.
Many times programs won't even load either. (Opera especially)
Could this be due to the memory being short? If so, what tweaks should I be using to increase available RAM?
Thanks!

j0dan said:
I'm running Black Dymond 3.5 on my TyTN and I'm not sure how much free program memory I'm supposed to have.
I rarely have over 9mb of Program memory free. Total of 48mb.
I'm getting tons of crashes (like many other people), have tried either running everything on the storage card, or everything on the device. Either way I'm restarting at least 10 times/day, even crashing during phone calls.
Many times programs won't even load either. (Opera especially)
Could this be due to the memory being short? If so, what tweaks should I be using to increase available RAM?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You may be a little low on programme memory but I think the crashes are more likely due to a variety of other factors that may be shown here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1078848&postcount=2
Mike

so how much ram *should* I ideally have?

I'd say a bit more than the program that you are about to start needs. You might have tested (installed and uninstalled) many programs and that lets windows run unstable in many cases. And have you tried to give it to the service point and say that it crashes all day long? I think it could even be a hardware problem.

Anticro said:
I'd say a bit more than the program that you are about to start needs. You might have tested (installed and uninstalled) many programs and that lets windows run unstable in many cases. And have you tried to give it to the service point and say that it crashes all day long? I think it could even be a hardware problem.
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Click to collapse
Thanks for the reply.
I seem to have fixed at least half of my crashing issues by removing Spb Phone.
I've started using phonealarm and that's been working great.
My biggest problem now is the phone slowing down (crashing maybe?) when receiving a call, to the point where I can't answer it.
Is there a specific # of free program memory I should be aiming for? I'm thinking of giving LVSW a try. just need to decide on which flavour.

HTC Mogul memory decrease over the course of a day

What is up with the memory drain on this device. I'll start the day with 24mb of memory (soft reset) and only have 10mb or less at the end of the day with no apps but activesync running. Has anyone less notice this?

hansolos said:
What is up with the memory drain on this device. I'll start the day with 24mb of memory (soft reset) and only have 10mb or less at the end of the day with no apps but activesync running. Has anyone less notice this?
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Click to collapse
Yea I get the same problem. Except I start off with about 20 and end up with as low as 9 before i'm forced to soft reset.

Its the magic of the Mogul's memory leak. The old rom and new rom feature it so untill a new update comes out, were stuck with it.

Does the Hermes and Kaiser have the same issue? They seem to be similar. They other thing is that the WM6 is suppose to have made those apps that leak in previous versions run at the kernel level.

my titan doesnt have the issue. its an app you've got installed. hard reset and dont install anything, you wont have the problem. troubleshooting 101. dont blame the titan.

I posted this on another forum discussing this problem, so I'll just quote myself here:
The memory "leak" thing is nothing more than a cache "optimization" in place to make the device respond snappier.
Whether it succeeds or not is another story altogether...
Basically, like any cache, it stores recent calculations for faster response later. For example, if you open and close IE alot, you might notice that the first time you open it on a fresh restart takes a little bit longer than the next times- that's because the second time you start it up, parts of it are still in memory from the first time!
You might be wondering why this happens even after forcing it closed with Xbutton or the memory settings. That's because the info stored in the performance cache aren't directly related to any one program! Many apps can use the same routines and calculations, and therefore this process exists on a processor/file system layer as opposed to a software layer, and therefore also exists even when all programs are closed!
Meaning, if I have mapopolis that uses a certain routine to access my BT GPS receiver, even after I close it, some of that routine stays in memory because perhaps Google Maps will use the same routine, and therefore respond faster!
Now, ideally, this should speed up performance, and it SHOULD disappear on its own if the memory is needed and the information goes "stale" (hasn't been processed in a while = not really needed for optimized perfomance). However, one look at the way Microsoft handles "automatically closing apps" (native X button, anyone?) is enough to know that WM can't manage its own memory very well.
I can, however, vouch for the fact that the longer you leave all programs closed, the more of your memory starts to creep back into available. I've sat and watched this happen. So, it sort of works, but perhaps not well enough if people are having low memory system crash problems.
Now, before you all start blaming MS for this... Its not Microsoft's problem. They developed CE-5 (which WM6 is based on) on machines limited to 32MB to make sure the programmers didn't get lazy with OS bloat.
Its the manufacturers who add all this file system optimization and stuff to their final device. In this case, its the way HTC thinks the system should run, which is why this anomaly is NOT as apparent on, say, a WM Treo device.
The good news is that if we complain enough, HTC might realize this optimization does more bad than good, and leave it out on the next ROM update for us.
However, truth be told, I think it works. The Mogul is one of the snappiest PPC's I've used of late, although I can't say for sure if its because of the cache or not.
This is just my personal opinion, so don't flog me! I just don't look at the memory useage anymore unless I'm having a problem, which mind you, I hardly do.
My most recent observations were this:
Soft reset gives me ~21MB (got some htc plugins), and after a day of use, making sure to close everything after I'm done, I get 18-19MB. At lowest, I hit 10MB after closing alot of apps. This memory usually comes back to 18-19mb in a matter of time for me. If for some strange reason it doesn't (can't say how often this happens), I soft reset.
All in all, I'm happy with the Mogul.
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I wasn't blaming the Titan directly, although I wish they would allow you to adjust the memory like they have in the past. But as I've read that may having something to do with chipset of battery consumption.
I was just wondering if others had the same issue and might know of the reason.
Is there a list of known apps that cause memory 'drain' or don't clear their cache. I can understand apps caching data into memory to run faster, but they are not cleaning themselves out upon exit. The strange thing is how they continue to grow over the course of the day with no interaction.
I'm doing a hard reset to see if it get better. Add apps one at a time until I find an issue.

Ok did a hard reset. Setup Outlook to get my mail from Exchange and Gmail. Let it get synced and then did a soft reset. Started with 24mb after reset, down to 21mb without doing anything after an hour and it's still falling. The only thing running is ActiveSync. I've also removed htc_cm_guardain and ssdaemon from the startup. The only thing in startup is poutlook.
The thing I noticed when I had handyswitcher installed (before hard reset) was that filesys, device, gwes, services, shell and cprog all continously increased there memory consumption over the course of a few hours and never stopped or released it.

hansolos said:
I wasn't blaming the Titan directly, although I wish they would allow you to adjust the memory like they have in the past. But as I've read that may having something to do with chipset of battery consumption.
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No no no... the reason you used to be able to select storage vs RAM was because it was SHARED memory! It was actually all RAM. If you had a 64MB device, that 64mb was split between ram and storage, and just like the rest of your RAM, it would wipe out when the battery died!
Ever since WM5 came along, they stopped sharing the memory, and now have dedicated RAM and Storage (using the leftover space on the EPROM chips used for the ROM image), much like a computer. This is a much better solution since you don't sacrifice your RAM for storing some large files, and you don't have to worry about battery failure cleaning you out!
Also, its not the apps that have cache, its the file system. The file system WILL actually free up some of that memory as the device is left with all apps closed for a while (maybe not all of it, but I've watched my device go from 11mb free after closing stuff to 18-19mb).

You guys need to hit the easy button on this one! It may not be a permanent fix, but there's a small freeware called Oxios Hibernate that releases RAM. I just put it on my start menu and 2 clicks....I have free RAM. Try it out, you won't be disappointed.

bam, thanks for the info... that little app rocks.

use a file explorer and go to \Windows\Startup. There is a shortcut there for a program along the lines of HTC_Guardian_cmsomething. This app is a htc app used to enforce sprint settings and runs in the background. So long as you don't destroy your phone internet settings you can just remove the shortcut. I found all my memory leak issues have gone away. I don't have any leaks when using the kaiser tab plugin.

Yes I've removed the links for HTC_Guardian and SSDaemon from startup and added them to my settings folder (if I ever need them). I soft reset to around 25mb and the Oxios Hibernate app keeps me around 24.5mb.

what does SDdaemon do?

sddaemon is suppose to be the speed dial or voice command app you get when you hit the button on the left side with the talk bubble. It loads the app if you hit the button, so I'm not sure why they have it in startup.

On my old Treo 700W, which REALLY had a memory problem, I used Oxios hibernate all the time. It works quite well.

yes, it works.
bam099 said:
You guys need to hit the easy button on this one! It may not be a permanent fix, but there's a small freeware called Oxios Hibernate that releases RAM. I just put it on my start menu and 2 clicks....I have free RAM. Try it out, you won't be disappointed.
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Click to collapse

you know what might help...if windows mobile had some sorta sorta disk caching feature...

that's what is causing the memory leak.

great tips. thanks.
hansolos said:
Yes I've removed the links for HTC_Guardian and SSDaemon from startup and added them to my settings folder (if I ever need them). I soft reset to around 25mb and the Oxios Hibernate app keeps me around 24.5mb.
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Click to collapse

Why is my memory so low?

I have a verizon xv6800 and it only shows 19MB of free ram (in Running Programs). It also only shows 47.46MB total program memory and total 164.41 storage memory. I though it was supposed to have 64 MB total program memory and 256MB total storage memory?

some of each is used by the OS, memory issues with the phone have been known since day 1, alot of the custom roms help the ram issue by disabling uneeded services, you might want to look into those

I looked at some of those ROMs and they still show like 20MB being used when everything is closed (with about 27MB or so free). I guess my real question is why does it show my total at only 47MB ? vs 64MB? hidden useage by the OS? If so, then why is 20MB in used after a hard-reset? visible use by the OS ?

yeah, 47vs64 is hidden by the OS, used fro shell and other things you cant kill
20vs47 is other stuff, services, autorun programs, today plugins, etc

Hey i would suggest getting oxios hibernate/memory app. It really does help. Sometimes i go from 78% usage down to a 55% usage with one tap of the program. I currently am running at 49%, which is not bad at all.

But why do I start with 20 megs on a reboot...but can never get back to it...even after I close everything AND use oxios...Why are there 3 instances of the phone app running? Can't close em...
I NEVER get back to 20! This is really starting to piss me off.

I just flashed DCD's newest rom, and I got about 27.41MB. After installing about 10 apps (some and some aren't ram dependent), and now I have 24.84MB with a fresh soft reboot. Which, I think, is still pretty low, but it is definitely better then the VZW shipped version.

We have to face the facts. We got a very crappy set of software with our Titans from every provider. MS dropped a load when they saw all the complaints and the people leaving for the Iphones. A few lucky people have been fortunate enough to test our new verson of WM6 and so far everyone says its much faster and alot smaller. This phone has the most horrible hardware support on the market atm as well. This should be greatly improved with the next rom from HTC. Do not forget everything you put on your phone is based off of bad code and bad hardware support. Every mod out there is 2nd rate untill we get better stuff from HTC and microsoft. Bottom line is you have to wait for the new ROM.

Does anyone have any clue when the new WM 6.1 Rom will be out? I love my titan but my god its slow I am seriously thinking about defecting to an iphone just cause its faster.

sudermatt said:
But why do I start with 20 megs on a reboot...but can never get back to it...even after I close everything AND use oxios...Why are there 3 instances of the phone app running? Can't close em...
I NEVER get back to 20! This is really starting to piss me off.
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Click to collapse
You possibly could create a custom ROM and then change the Pagepool size. That should get you well over 20. I'm using DCD 1.6.10 Kitchen and changed the Pagepool size to 4MB. That increase available Program Memory to 27MB after a fresh install of the ROM.

having more memory on this phone will not make it run any faster or better. It becomes an issue only when you run out of memory running applications lie PIE, Opera, Picsel, ETC.

I'm running DCD's 1.6.10 Rom with my configuration and apps I have installed I still get 24.8 megs of ram free and I havent soft reset for atleast 24 hours.

Memory Leaking Solution?

Well, I seem to have a constant memory leaking problem. I've tried different roms over the past few years. Some of the most recent DCD 3.2.4, 3.2.6, 4.1.2, and now RM v2.2 light. They all seem to have the same problem. The memory is fine when I do a soft reset, then I start using the phone for whatever, Internet, Text Messaging, etc. The memory starts to get less and less and less over a very short period of time until I hardly have any left. So, I have to keep soft resetting the phone like every hour or more. Is there a solution to this? I have to assume it's a hardware issue since all the ROMs seem to cause the same problem. I have a friend that has the same phone and he uses his phone with MR1 and he says he has no problems at all, but he uses his phone as a basic phone and doesn't use it like a computer, like I do. He doesn't text message or use many applications at all. So, I don't know if he would have the same problem if he ran all the apps I do and text messaged, etc. Thank you for your help and time...

It's not a hardware issue. Due to the nature of our OS, there will more than likely always be a slow memory leak...but it shouldn't be bad.
Do you have a task manager like HTC Task Manager that allows you to completely close apps when you press (or hold) the X? You may have lots of apps running throughout the day that don't actually exit.
You can also try running a program like Oxios Hibernate occasionally to free up some memory.
You may also have programs such a Voice Command that run in the background and use memory; try looking and seeing what is running in the background.
Try downloading something like DotFred's Task Manager, and look at the what programs are running and how much memory they utilize shortly after a reset. Then look again a few hours later to see what changes.

Yes, I do and I'm exiting the apps. It doesn't seem to be bad with this new RS ROM. All the DCD ROMs that I used had a major problem when I used them. I was using memRelease, that seemed to be the best out of the ones I tried, but it would still not release a lot and it would slowly go down lower and lower. I've just started using Oxios Hibernate 1.40 since it came with the new ROM. I don't have voice command that I know of. I see what's running in the background, there is some utility came with the ROM, but I'm not sure what the files are that are running and if it's OK to stop them. I will have to try what you say, but I'll have to try to find that utility again, or get that one you suggested. Thanks!
btonetbone said:
It's not a hardware issue. Due to the nature of our OS, there will more than likely always be a slow memory leak...but it shouldn't be bad.
Do you have a task manager like HTC Task Manager that allows you to completely close apps when you press (or hold) the X? You may have lots of apps running throughout the day that don't actually exit.
You can also try running a program like Oxios Hibernate occasionally to free up some memory.
You may also have programs such a Voice Command that run in the background and use memory; try looking and seeing what is running in the background.
Try downloading something like DotFred's Task Manager, and look at the what programs are running and how much memory they utilize shortly after a reset. Then look again a few hours later to see what changes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

OK, I can't find the application I was talking about, I'm thinking it was in the Heavy version of the ROM and not the Light and that's why I can't find it now.
I did what you suggested and I installed DotFred's Task Manager. I can see the processes that are starting when I do a soft reset. Can you tell me if there is a place that lists what all the processes are and what I need and don't need? This way I can figure out what processes and don't need and stop them. Is there a way to stop some processes from starting automatically when you turn on the phone, and that will only start when I start them manually?
When I do the soft reset my free memory is about 17.76 MB but my processes are only using 15851 KB but my free memory is 18.52 MB after I use Oxios. So, that doesn't work well to free up memory. After you minus the memory the proceses are using from the total memory it should have 37.44 MB free. So, I don't know what's using up the rest of the memory.
I'm also using Kernal to use the High Memory Kernal so the camera doesn't work and it frees up alot more memory. So, if I used Low Memory Kernal my memory would really suck. So, there must be something wrong here.
Is there a way to keep ActiveSync from starting all the time? Here is the list. Thank you!
shell32.exe - 4440 kb
gwes.exe - 3350 kb
device.exe - 2677 kb
services.exe - 2383 kb
filesys.exe - 1812 kb
cprog.exe - 892 kb
connmgr.exe - 104 kb
repllog.exe - 101 kb
TaskMgr.exe - 80 kb
psShutXP.exe - 5 kb
FTouchFlo.exe - 5 kb
poutlook.exe - 1 kb
NK.exe - 1 kb
btonetbone said:
It's not a hardware issue. Due to the nature of our OS, there will more than likely always be a slow memory leak...but it shouldn't be bad.
Do you have a task manager like HTC Task Manager that allows you to completely close apps when you press (or hold) the X? You may have lots of apps running throughout the day that don't actually exit.
You can also try running a program like Oxios Hibernate occasionally to free up some memory.
You may also have programs such a Voice Command that run in the background and use memory; try looking and seeing what is running in the background.
Try downloading something like DotFred's Task Manager, and look at the what programs are running and how much memory they utilize shortly after a reset. Then look again a few hours later to see what changes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

It must be something you're installing because I've used most of the ROMs you mentioned along with having tons of extra stuff installed and running in the background and with heavy use the memory leaks really only became a problem after a day or two... not every hour.

Well, the RM ROMs seem to be working better then the DCD ROMs. I have to keep clearning the memory, but I don't have to keep restarting my phone like I did with the DCD ROMs. I still don't understand what's up with the memory. I had like 50% clear memory after the fresh install of the new ROM, and I checked the processes. I then restore my backup and install my software and then the memory goes down to like 30% free. I check the processes and there is no new processes. So, if there is no new processes taking up the memory then what is, and how can I find out? Yes, there must be something wrong, but I don't know how to figure out what it is. Thanks!
unL33T said:
It must be something you're installing because I've used most of the ROMs you mentioned along with having tons of extra stuff installed and running in the background and with heavy use the memory leaks really only became a problem after a day or two... not every hour.
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Click to collapse

Does using high RAM have effect on speed?

Since the new official WM6.5 is using a lot of RAM, does this affect the speed of the device?
Or does it merely mean that there can't be as many apps open until it reaches critical level?

Not directly, it should not. Only if it reaches a certain level, as you said.
It's likely however that WM6.5 uses more processing power than 6.1, but I can't say for sure.

It should not affect the performance, I have been up to 80% or more and never experienced any lag issues.

Cool thanks for the replies

One of the biggest misconceptions about RAM on Windows Mobile or indeed most operating systems, is that it's a good thing to have lots of free ram available. It's not. It's a complete waste of resources. The most efficient use of RAM would be bouncing off 100% used as much as possible.

It's good to have free RAM up until you have nothing more to execute. Having more RAM ensures you never reach this limit and start swapping.
I may not use all 4GB on my PC at once, but when the next version of XXXXX game comes out, I may end up using more than I do now. The overhead ensures I don't have to go out and buy more memory to ensure reliable performance.

A little off topic, but seems like a good place to ask: Opera (using 6.1, original or TESS) often struggles rendering complex (and sometimes even simple) pages. When you scroll to a new part of the page there are delays while it redraws the new bits. When you scroll back, it has to redraw the original bits. There are annoying delays and large ugly grey areas while it does this. I often have 3-4 tabs open BTW.
The question is, can Opera be allocated more memory (since I have plenty, especially since TESS) or is it completely automatic under WM? I've poked around in the registry and there are a couple of keys for "memory allocation" and "heap allocation", or some such, under the Opera section, but they're just numbers, they don't look like Mbytes, if you see what I mean.
The slow redrawing thing feels like a memory problem, as though it's redrawing from storage cache rather than quicker RAM cache, that's why I ask.

ArtieQ said:
It should not affect the performance, I have been up to 80% or more and never experienced any lag issues.
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I fully agree with you.
The only problem is that programs that use lots of memory will not start. In fact I can play with Xtrakt only if I disable manila, otherwise the system not have enough memory to start it.
Sorry for the bad English

im sorry but if your PC or phone whatever you like is using alot of RAM, say %90, then this is going to cause the device to slow down.
once you reach a certain limit of RAM left, it has to start using disk space as temporary RAM and as such everything becomes slower.
RAM makes it quicker ONLY when the program you want is loaded into the RAM. So in windows if you have alot of programs running in the task area, then yes these programs will run up very quickly. But try then to open up another program when your memory is briming and you will find that it will slow it up.
To have memory running at a high percentage used is bad practise. In theory its good because it means things are loaded, but its only the things that are loaded that notice the speed benifits. There needs to be a cut off point.

adamrob69 said:
im sorry but if your PC or phone whatever you like is using alot of RAM, say %90, then this is going to cause the device to slow down.
once you reach a certain limit of RAM left, it has to start using disk space as temporary RAM and as such everything becomes slower.
RAM makes it quicker ONLY when the program you want is loaded into the RAM. So in windows if you have alot of programs running in the task area, then yes these programs will run up very quickly. But try then to open up another program when your memory is briming and you will find that it will slow it up.
To have memory running at a high percentage used is bad practise. In theory its good because it means things are loaded, but its only the things that are loaded that notice the speed benifits. There needs to be a cut off point.
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Your understanding of the OS and therefore your conclusions are wrong. Desktop Windows is a different beast to Windows Mobile. When physical RAM gets low in Windows, it swaps data out to the disk. In WM it doesn't, it asks programs to close down (then forces them if none of them do), on a least recently used basis. For this reason, in WM, you might as well have applications using free RAM since they're effectively 'cached' and ready to be called up quickly. Should you start another process that requires that RAM, then the old processes will be closed very quickly. In WM, free RAM is wasted RAM.

Hi
For this reason, in WM, you might as well have applications using free RAM since they're effectively 'cached' and ready to be called up quickly. Should you start another process that requires that RAM, then the old processes will be closed very quickly. In WM, free RAM is wasted RAM.
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Exactly Which is why having the HTC task bar shut down applications on clicking the cross is a complete waste of time. Windows Mobile is designed to leave applications loaded even when you close them, that way they are ready immediately when you want them again. This saves times and also power.
As already stated Windows Mobile will close applications automatically if required to free up some space.
Empty RAM is a complete waste, and is an argument against increasing RAM in Windows Mobile devices to silly headline amounts as even in standby that RAM has to be kept powered even if not being used.
Regards
Phil