Database Users

ROM-Dev madness!

Foreword: I mean this in the most constructive way possible. While I'm not a <android> developer, it occurs to me that with the wealth of Android ROM-devs and an excellent base of testers (like myself, an unexcellent but present tester), there has to be a better way.
I love XDA-Dev as a resource, and it's been a godsend since I got my MT3G. I've had the opportunity to use some very well done builds which have been time-invested by their developers. I've learned a lot about my device, and am beginning to understand Android as a platform. Here's the beef:
Some ROM-posts are 1000+ pages long. While I could read all 1000+ pages if warranted, it's simply inefficient. What information am I after? I want to know:
Does it work on my phone?
What's the latest version?
Where's it at?
Are there any specific bugs on my phone with this build?
Who else is using this build, and what hardware are they using?
What bugs are being worked on?
What workarounds are applicable to this build?
What bugs are open and need community feedback?
etc...
Is there some sort of bug-tracking setup that could be used to facilitate this? I don't mean or intend to steer *anything* away from XDA-Developers, per se, but this current forum method doesn't seem very conducive to making forward progress.
<shrug> I know, I know, I'm a noob around here and should just work with the herd. I've seen other comments touching on some of these issues, so I thought I'd throw it out there. I apologize if it's been brought up before and shot down.
Hey, what about this? I was looking for a semi-authoritative list of Android ROMs that matched what I outlined above and came across it.
If I had the resources I'd volunteer time/materials to help the cause in that light, but being the schmuck I am (ya' know, working full time and school part time), I can't offer anything substantive. So while this might sound like a gripe, maybe it will compel someone else to make some magic happen. That, or have my account disabled
Any thoughts?

I understand where you are coming from.. but I don't find it that hard to find the rom and information I am after.. all it takes is a little time..
Why not help out by adding to the wiki?

I dont see how this has to do with development, you are just as guilty as the people you speak of.

xyzulu said:
I understand where you are coming from.. but I don't find it that hard to find the rom and information I am after.. all it takes is a little time..
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Click to collapse
I hear ya, it's just not a very concise method and I'm sure you've seen "what's the best build" & "will this ROM work on my phone" and "hey are there any issues with this build", etc...
xyzulu said:
Why not help out by adding to the wiki?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've thought about it, and went as far as the edit screen a few times. Then it's like "aww crap, here goes a few hours...". Back to homework
Jrbourque said:
I dont see how this has to do with development, you are just as guilty as the people you speak of.
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Click to collapse
I think it has everything to do with development, advancement of the builds flying around here, and support of the folks that put their time into it.
Maybe you misinterpreted what I was saying, but I surely wasn't trying to assign guilt to anyone. Things are the way they are because they got that way - doesn't make it right, 'doesn't make it wrong. I just thought maybe there's a better way to support the community.
It's all good.

Jrbourque said:
I dont see how this has to do with development, you are just as guilty as the people you speak of.
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Click to collapse
It's this kind of attitude that is putting a lot of people off. The OP has made some very good and valid points and deserves at least a response to the points he has made, not just a one sentence put down.

To Devs and Advanced Users....

...with all the advanced knowledge out there, regarding making roms, or flat making roms better, how did you learn these things? I mean you were a noob one day, and then you read something, or were exposed to something, and your mind opened and your skills expanded. What was it that allowed you to transform your self?

G Zero said:
...with all the advanced knowledge out there, regarding making roms, or flat making roms better, how did you learn these things? I mean you were a noob one day, and then you read something, or were exposed to something, and your mind opened and your skills expanded. What was it that allowed you to transform your self?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Searching. Absorbing. Previous knowledge (Linux mostly). These are things most of us have done, look where we are now.

Experience, experience, experience. Need I say it again?

It certainly doesn't hurt to have a master's degree in computer engineering....

Threadlist

Hi!
I was just wondering if anyone would like to point me and others in the direction of some other useful threads to check out that relate to our Hero. (Not Superman, he's still GSM only)
For example, I've wondered if any subforums other than Hero CDMA in the HTC Hero Forums here on XDA have any useful info or downloads that are relevant. Also, I've been wondering the same thing about the general Android forums here on XDA.
I keep a CDMA Hero bookmark button on top of Firefox, but does anyone have any good suggestions of other sites or subforums/threads that I can add along with it and check about as much as I check Facebook, Gmail and Plentyoffish? Hahaha

The thread list is up at the top.. Under search..
Have fun with it..

http://geekfor.me/
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-hero/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=519
these are my bookmarks on this install, i have a ton more on my other computer but can't remember them now, these are the ones i've used this week

There is plenty to read and learn both in the G2 section, and in the wider general Android forum. I highly recommend checking it out.

Haha, yeah, thanks. I was about to say thanks, ****, but I saw you're joking so it's cool.
Before anyone tries to use the old "google it" line on me, let me say, yeah - I've googled it before. I know several good sites to check out other than XDA, like android central and so on.
I'm just wondering what other people check religiously like I check this subforum.
I'm also mainly curious to know if there's even any point reading through stuff on in the GSM Hero subforums. It's so lame that we only get one lousy little subforum! There's bound to be a wealth of knowledge, downloads, etc. in the GSM subforums, but I just don't want to waste my time or learn harmful/useless things.
By the way, if I could soapbox for a minute (and this has nothing to do with the post above this one, lol), I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the CDMA Hero posts, and it's a shame.
Of course it gets annoying to see people begging for help with common issues that have been addressed a hundred times. No one denies that, but it's just something that will always be there. Unless there is a quiz on the basics of flashing ROMs and using a device before one can make posts on here, it's always going to happen. Getting annoyed with this is understandable.
However, I've noticed other types of threads posted, which while a bit annoying because we've seen the same thing over and over, really don't deserve the rudeness that they get. Who cares if there are 50 threads on here where people ask what other people prefer to use as a daily ROM, or what their home screen looks like? Does anyone lose any money or time over this? Is there a thread limit here? No. This is a community of people who have the same device and who all want to get the best out of their devices. If a thread is pointless, it will be buried quickly when no one posts in it, and the more popular threads will remain on the first page. A pointless thread will continue to stay on the first page though, when someone takes the time to make a rude post!
Anyway, sorry to rant on and on about it, but it would really be great to see the CDMA Hero community work together a little better and be a little less anal. This is probably the number one site that people with our phone check to learn more and update and generally get more out of the Hero experience. Instead of scaring people away from making new threads and posts to ask people what they like and why they like it, we should really try to encourage this. The more we all come together and explore things together (regardless of how repetitive and in some opinions possibly even trivial some of these things may be), the more we grow as a whole, and I am sure that this kind of atmosphere will encourage more people to make more and more interesting contributions.
The beauty of Android and of XDA Developers Forums is that they were both created with the goal of people coming together and developing, creating, tweaking, designing, and discussing. Before the Hero, I was permanently glued to a Dell Axim x51v, and between these forums and HTCGeeks, and a friendly and open community of users and developers, we've taken the device FAR beyond anything that anyone could have dreamed it could get to when it was made, what, 5 years ago?

thedudejdog said:
http://geekfor.me/
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-hero/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=519
these are my bookmarks on this install, i have a ton more on my other computer but can't remember them now, these are the ones i've used this week
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot, I'm going to add these into a "Hero" bookmarks folder!

tejasrichard said:
There is plenty to read and learn both in the G2 section, and in the wider general Android forum. I highly recommend checking it out.
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Click to collapse
Thanks for the info!

GSM Hero Themes/Apps Thread
Curious - is this thread useful at all to us, or will any themes and apps be useless since we're CDMA?
I already know (I think) that GSM themes won't work because they're probably designed for GSM ROMs, so all kinds of things won't be compatible. (Like trying to use a 1.5 theme on a 2.1 ROM)
Are things like widgets and clocks ROM and/or device specific? I'm on a widget hunt.
I'm new to using Helix and I'd love to find some widgets that compare to the awesome Sense widgets, particularly Sense's beautiful Messaging, Mail, Music, and Friendstream widgets.

raynda said:
However, I've noticed other types of threads posted, which while a bit annoying because we've seen the same thing over and over, really don't deserve the rudeness that they get. Who cares if there are 50 threads on here where people ask what other people prefer to use as a daily ROM, or what their home screen looks like? Does anyone lose any money or time over this? Is there a thread limit here? No. This is a community of people who have the same device and who all want to get the best out of their devices. If a thread is pointless, it will be buried quickly when no one posts in it, and the more popular threads will remain on the first page. A pointless thread will continue to stay on the first page though, when someone takes the time to make a rude post!
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It's not that we care that there is a hundred threads that say the same thing, its that if there are 100 threads of the same topic, it in effect, makes our forum usage a terror, because navigation is almost doomed from the beginning in that situation..
And it is not going to be something that is always there, because with mods actually modding these threads on other forums that I frequent daily, *they are virtually non-existant...
For the "noob" users, they cannot find these answers efficiently because the forum is blasted with the same thing over and over... With different answers in each thread..
The only way to make the "noob's" life easier, is to format the forum in a efficient and knowledge ready way...
Which by letting noob's overrun your forum, is not possible... We are hateful because you are feeding an endless chain of questions, when it could be handled in a much more effective way, if it wasn't for people flaming people who are actually looking out for the forum....

raynda said:
By the way, if I could soapbox for a minute (and this has nothing to do with the post above this one, lol), I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the CDMA Hero posts, and it's a shame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, it's kinda bad here... It's like that on pretty much any technical forum, but things are really over the top on this one.
It's to the point now that when I do have a question I feel like I need to devote one short paragraph to asking the question, then tack on 5 more long paragraphs explaining that I already DID search, came up empty handed, searched again, explain which keywords I searched on, etc....
Surely there's a happy medium that can be found...

azyouthinkeyeiz said:
We are hateful because you are feeding an endless chain of questions, when it could be handled in a much more effective way, if it wasn't for people flaming people who are actually looking out for the forum....
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Click to collapse
Hey, I'm not trying to come off defensive to you in this reply because I appreciate your posts on here, but are you saying that I personally am feeding an endless chain of questions?
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the problem may be in people looking out for the forum too much, when the point of this whole XDA Developers Forum thing should be to look out for the fellow user. Like I said though, I may be wrong.
And I don't mean that it's perfectly cool to have hundreds of the same thread in here, I agree that is useless clutter. I just think that some threads that get posted do have potential for the good of the community, but they get squashed quickly by posters with bad attitudes, and then the OP in that thread and others who have the same thoughts and questions become too embarrassed or insulted/offended to post again. When that happens, someone who may have eventually provided something amazing to the community will either never get to that point, or will get there and just won't post it here because of the bad experience.
I'm sure that there are all kinds of amazing things that people have tweaked, developed, designed, and created, but they're never going to be publicly released for one reason or another. Let's not let the reason be that they were treated like they were stupid when they were finding their way on these forums.

subliminalurge said:
Yeah, it's kinda bad here... It's like that on pretty much any technical forum, but things are really over the top on this one.
It's to the point now that when I do have a question I feel like I need to devote one short paragraph to asking the question, then tack on 5 more long paragraphs explaining that I already DID search, came up empty handed, searched again, explain which keywords I searched on, etc....
Surely there's a happy medium that can be found...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's exactly what I'm talking about. People will get to the point that they just won't post anything when they have an idea or a question because there's no happy medium. And the worse it gets, the less progress we make as a whole.

raynda said:
Hey, I'm not trying to come off defensive to you in this reply because I appreciate your posts on here, but are you saying that I personally am feeding an endless chain of questions?
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the problem may be in people looking out for the forum too much, when the point of this whole XDA Developers Forum thing should be to look out for the fellow user. Like I said though, I may be wrong.
And I don't mean that it's perfectly cool to have hundreds of the same thread in here, I agree that is useless clutter. I just think that some threads that get posted do have potential for the good of the community, but they get squashed quickly by posters with bad attitudes, and then the OP in that thread and others who have the same thoughts and questions become too embarrassed or insulted/offended to post again. When that happens, someone who may have eventually provided something amazing to the community will either never get to that point, or will get there and just won't post it here because of the bad experience.
I'm sure that there are all kinds of amazing things that people have tweaked, developed, designed, and created, but they're never going to be publicly released for one reason or another. Let's not let the reason be that they were treated like they were stupid when they were finding their way on these forums.
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No not you specifically. Sorry that was an analogous "you".. And I totally agree.. But 95% of the ones get shot down immediately, deserve it, even though you might not think so, from the people with answers, you will know almost immediately if it merits further investigation. Wishful-thinking and impossible sometimes walk a very narrow line. Developers and end-users have entirely different mindsets.. That's never going to change.. But the end-users should have a more thorough understanding of what it is we do for you and *developers should be more compassionate "for the most part (there are alot of caring devs)..
Where this sub-forum was destroyed, was giving it sub-forum status and not its own separate forum, like every other HTC device.. Then, we would get a development sub-forum, themes forum, etc. The development is different than the GSM Hero, so why doesn't it deserve its own?
You will see, that with honest concerns and problems, I will go to the end of the world for you...
But, if you want something from me, (effort to help you) you must at least show some sort of effort to solve the issue, besides "NEW TOPIC< IS MY PHONE BRICKED?"

azyouthinkeyeiz said:
You will see, that with honest concerns and problems, I will go to the end of the world for you...
But, if you want something from me, (effort to help you) you must at least show some sort of effort to solve the issue, besides "NEW TOPIC< IS MY PHONE BRICKED?"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can definitely see your point.
But this is where the happy medium needs to be found. I know I'm the exception rather than the rule on this point, but by the time I post asking for help, it's safe to say I've spent at least one day each both trying to figure out an answer on my own (and I'm fairly capable), and searching this forum, other forums, and google to see if anyone else has had and solved the same problem.
That's effort that isn't seen, but it's extremely frustrating to feel obligated to explain it all in detail in exchange for the privilege of asking a question.
Now, don't take this post the wrong way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting people to do a little digging on their own before they come crying for help.
I just think this forum (as a whole, not you specifically) has gone a bit over the top with how much "proof" of that digging is required before someone can feel comfortable asking their question.
(And I'm not really even complaining, just offering my observations on a topic that was already brought up for discussion....)

I get very sarcastic... But only because I think sarcasm is funny...
And you really don't have to explain it yourself *in every post.. Because most of us with a thorough background, can tell how much effort you put in, just by your question... (edit* Yourself is again analogous, not you)
For Example, the 2.1 thread this morning...
I opened it up, thinking to myself "Not again"...
But when I read and see that it was actually about A2DP, mindset about the thread changes, and I go into help mode... That invoked thought and development just from that post..
Now if I had opened it up, and it was a brand new "Can I change back to a rooted rom after the OTA update" question... I would have went into sarcasm mode... And I don't want to help that guy be lazy.. Why should we give him the benefit of spouting off verbatim what has been answered 1000 times before, just because he can't take the 20 mins to peruse over a couple threads??
I am all about the education of every single member of this forum, into all of the ways of Android... But its like what my papaw used to tell me, "You get what you put in."

And to ray...
Download GMOB chat, from the market...
Go to the rooted users chat, and there is usually alot of good info there, you just have to sort of wade through some of it, since you only get to see like the 50 most recent posts.. So it takes a little more effort to find anything... Also the apps room is pretty cool...
I have found technorati.com is getting alot better...
androidfreeware.com is good for apps.

OK, now to take the completely opposite side....
I was just reading another topic and in 5 minutes I saw 3 different questions posted that had been answered ON THAT SAME PAGE!!!
The proper profanity has not yet been invented to describe people like that.

See subliminal...
It's not that I don't wanna see those questions asked, I just want people to understand the nature of a forum, and alot* here do not...
If people read, before they start looking for answers, we would be alot better..
The issue is, that all of these people look to have a very limited understanding of Android, and just want a phone to use.. And this is not the forum for those.. Android-central, sprintusers.com, etc are more appropriate..
This forum is for development, not for chatting about the evo, or why your 1.5 is better than 2.1.. or how android is the iphone killer..
This forum is to bring ideas to our platform, and to build upon them... And to release mods and hacks..
Not for people to rant about how sprint sucks, and I want a nexus one..
Or to rant about how developers are stealing our donations....
It is to make our phone better, and with people feeding this nonsense, we are hindering the forum from where it should be...

azyouthinkeyeiz said:
Not for people to rant about how sprint sucks, and I want a nexus one..
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Click to collapse
But what if Sprint sucks, the Nexus One is a POS...
AND....
Why can't I get a Nexus One on Sprint?
(I really do understand both sides of the issue. I just kinda agree that some on this forum are a bit quick on the draw with the "Use the search you ****in' noob!" gun....)

azyouthinkeyeiz said:
And to ray...
Download GMOB chat, from the market...
Go to the rooted users chat, and there is usually alot of good info there, you just have to sort of wade through some of it, since you only get to see like the 50 most recent posts.. So it takes a little more effort to find anything... Also the apps room is pretty cool...
I have found technorati.com is getting alot better...
androidfreeware.com is good for apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey thanks, I'll check that out! By the way, after thinking about it today and catching up on this thread's replies, I think we're thinking on the same page.
It would be handy, I think, if we could get some extremely well written and dummy-proof How-To's stickied for the main page. I know there is already a sticky wicky for guides, but I remember still being a bit lost even having read them when I was new to the Hero. I wrote some extremely detailed step by step how-to's for the x51v over at htcgeeks, and though it might be my own vanity speaking, I think that it slowed down the constant repetitive questions. I'd volunteer to help out with this if we could get some Mod help to reorganize the stickies. I think we should have individual ones for...
- How To Setup an SD Card for A2SD
- How To Install Recovery and How To Use It (Nandroids, what they are, wipes, which ones to use for what, Fix UID's explanation, etc.)
- How To Flash a Custom ROM
- How To Flash a Custom Theme
- Troubleshooting PC Sync Issues
- How To Setup and Use ADB Shell with a list of ADB functions
I know we have this stuff now, but I remember it took a while to find all the info I needed to learn all these things when I was new to the Hero, and the current Guides sticky wasn't as helpful as it could have been. And I'm a pretty resourceful and intelligent guy who can search, read, and follow instructions! (Or at least I like to think so, lol)
Oh, and to make a preventative strike against hundreds of future bug reports on new ROMs, giant bold text on every page of every thread that says "WIPE DATA, DALVIK CACHE, AND SD EXT BEFORE FLASHING A DIFFERENT ROM!!!

Its time dammit, for a change...

i have a rooted fascinate, no im not posting where my 2.2 update is, it'll get here when it gets here, more that this is a call out to any devs and end users like myself that are tired of the same old rom styles and themes. Some roms are straight beautiful, like Thatdudebutch's super dark v1, and sos3 blackhole, whereas some just seem too stock-ish to me.
Where is the imagination? The creativity? I know devs are always working they're ass's off to bring us the next best port or rom based off insert other rom name here... but im ready for the dev that says hey i created this from scratch...
Maybe its just me, maybe im being a whiney ass lol, but i think its time devs started using what they think is cool, not what everyone else thinks is cool. If the enduser doesnt like the rom/theme, then boo ****in hoo and they can use something else.
Like i think SONOFSKYWALKER3's idea of build your own rom was a huge breakthrough in end user controlled customization, but its still using whats already available to us in either stock, or from the select few top 3 roms.
Please guys, (devs too) Show us what you can really do, make that rom that takes our breath away. We will love you for it...i will love you for it (metaphorically speaking of course lol)

Show us what you can do too
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

Progress is progress. The devs are porting gb to the Fascinate, that's a start in real customization. Just wait, the devs are already working hard. If your pushing them so hard, why don't you help? Seriously, its this disappointment in devs that ruins a devs commitment.
Rockin' DJ05, Minimal Icognito, Clocked at 1.3Ghz

Why must everything be taken so negatively? I read this first post and saw it as inspiration. I can see that the devs who make roms make it for the general public not for themselves, and I think thats why they make them so similar to each other, as thats what most people like. I feel that a dev isn't really ready to go out of his/her way to bust they're ass and make a rom that only they and a handful of others are going to use.
All in all, I think the OPer made a good point in "challenging" the devs to 'unleash' their creativity into the atmosphere and make somthing of their own that they are truely balls to the wall about.
Just my 2 cents.

TheSonicEmerald said:
Progress is progress. The devs are porting gb to the Fascinate, that's a start in real customization. Just wait, the devs are already working hard. If your pushing them so hard, why don't you help? Seriously, its this disappointment in devs that ruins a devs commitment.
Rockin' DJ05, Minimal Icognito, Clocked at 1.3Ghz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree completely...remember the devs don't have to do what they do for us...if it was as simple as 1,2,3 then everyone would create their own roms for themselves...
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

The problem is, there's more worth in porting gingerbread and then porting other roms like cyangenmod which are easier to customize, than customizing samsung's firmware updates.
Rockin' DJ05, Minimal Icognito, Clocked at 1.3Ghz

jdkzombie said:
If the enduser doesnt like the rom/theme, then boo ****in hoo and they can use something else.
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Click to collapse
Yeah.. so what was the point of your post again?

Not at all trying to be negative, but what exactly are you looking for?
Sent from my SCH-I500

you are all missing the point of my post
its not to bash devs, its not to berate anyone, nor was it to solicit "why dont you do it yourself" comments. But since thats how everyone is going to take it, i guess i need to clarify. What i meant by devs making what they think is cool is for them to use their imagination and make their roms and themes unique. Too many roms out there have been sourced from others...not that this is a bad thing as there are beautiful works of art available to all who wants to flash them..
These devs bust their ass to make these things for us and i respect that with all my being, and i appreciate all that they do. My hats off to all of them. But, again, wheres the creativity? Why must they be forced to use what is already in the eclair, froyo, and Gingerbread roms as their inspiration? These guys can take 0's and 1's and turn them into something beautiful that cant be taken seriously in just pictures. In the last 3 days i have flashed more things to my phone than i can hardly count, yes i have screwed my phone up and recovered, but im not here explaining without experiencing the world of flashing.
Why dont i help out....i'd love to yet im not programmer. I have zero idea how coding and programming and bitmapping works. Thats why we have developers. Im not here to bash anyone. I go to school currently to be a master mechanic, therefore computer programming is worlds different from installing and tuning a greddy turbo, or replacing a radiator, or even doing a tune up on (insert friends name here)'s car.
Im calling out to devs to stop being restrained by the limitations we as endusers have put on them, to indirectly force their hand in creating something they may not like but we will because otherwise people out there will gripe and complain. Devs, make what YOU want. There are limitless capabilities to be had in android because its so open. As developers you are the ones who provide for us when the manufacturers fail to hold up their word/rumor/promise/ etc, i dont want you to think that you have to make these for us, i want you to want to make these for us. Without you developers we would all be stuck to a basic android existence harkening to that of apple and its lockdown on whats what.
I wanna see creations from your darkest fantasies about android. I want to see the rom that gets you all hot and bothered. I want to see the theme that you got the inspiration for while you were driving around town or watching a movie. Dammit guys, make what you want to see android be, enough being the lambs, its time to be the lion. When phone manufacturers fail, where do we turn? To you devs. You. I cant even begin to describe how much respect i have for what you do for us.
I'll finish this off with something for the people who will no doubt bash me and flame because i need to do it myself, or im being to hard on them, or i'm just being a whiny little *****. boo hoo. get over it. Its my post, regarding my OPINION. I didnt force any of you to view it. to read it. to comment on it. the fact that you did shows that each one of you feels the same way i do. We all love android. We all love what the devs do. Why should we hold them back from what their imaginations can design? What gives us the right to do that....
Respect devs...always and forever from me....respect.

jdkzombie said:
Why dont i help out....i'd love to yet im not programmer. I have zero idea how coding and programming and bitmapping works. Thats why we have developers.
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Well, you don't have to be a programmer to be "creative". In the design process all sorts of people are involved, and you could think up a concept. You could design a concept so great that a programmer would like at it and think it's great and decide to bring it to life. But asking people to be creative on your behalf, and using "i'm not a programmer" as an excuse to be a spectator is simply selfish I gotta say. Not trying to bash you too much, but simply saying there's many ways to be useful.

Jdkzombie is right...when linus developed the linux kernel he basically said....here it is, go forth and multiply...,now we have tons of different flavors and styles of linux. Android is awesome in its own right but we are only customizing something already there. (Devs....i definately mean no disrespect... ). The only thing i've seen so far that has bent that rule is MIUI. but that is too close to an iphone for me. I think what jdk is trying to say is...,where are the truely custom roms with wild and crazy user interfaces. I don't think jdk is asking the devs to stop what they are doing by no means...but maybe jdks asking why can't we all b more creative and come together as a community and come up with one ourselves with ideas from all of us...,and then find devs to take the plunge and make it happen. It all starts with an IDEA. So why not...,instead of bashing in this forum... ,let's start posting things we might want to be different in android and see what happens.
Think about it...,ubuntu linux- "your name here" android?
Thanks to all, devs, themers, and the users who have donated and contributed feedback over the years to make android what it is.
I may not post here much, but when i see something worth posting about i have to add MY opinion....and that's all it is.
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i think the op has a nice idea, but this probably isnt the phone to realize it on.
we have a handful of very talented devs, but really there time is mostly tied up in attempting to right the wrongs that samsung has done to us, by working on aosp/froyo/gb whatever.
the n1/ns community (or i9000) might be the guys you d want to bring your ideas to, as they have a global base of devs and their communities dwarf ours to the point of ridiculousness

See tho, one of the first lessons they teach you in most programming courses nowadays is "why reinvent the wheel?" It's there, it does it's job, why not build on top of that framework that already exists. This is the foundational principle of software engineering.
Think about it like this: you are in the woods and need to build a fire. You have plenty of dry wood, small kindling materials, and matches. Why would you go to the trouble of locating a striker stone and a piece of Flint to use to try and start the fire when you already have matches. You wouldn't unless you had no alternative or just liked to take the inefficient route for the sake of itself.
Another way to think of it is like this:
If I needed to drive from here in Mississippi to Nevada, I wouldn't build a car to drive if I already had one.
Devs are trying g to give us the most bang for our buck and that means using the tools and frameworks already in place.
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CrushD said:
Well, you don't have to be a programmer to be "creative". In the design process all sorts of people are involved, and you could think up a concept. You could design a concept so great that a programmer would like at it and think it's great and decide to bring it to life. But asking people to be creative on your behalf, and using "i'm not a programmer" as an excuse to be a spectator is simply selfish I gotta say. Not trying to bash you too much, but simply saying there's many ways to be useful.
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Why must you assume i havent already given my thoughts and ideas to several devs and "themers" on IRC. I have frequented that site for a good amount of time the past handful of days, both getting assistance with "de-bricking" my phone when i flash a no no to my device, and helping out who i can with their own problems.
It isnt just just me that should be "expected" to come up with new ideas here. I expect everyone to have something to contribute if you are going to post your comments (i use the word "your" in reference to everyone, not just anyone in particular)
You want a bit of my idea? I wanted to see a rom where the screens scroll vertically. Not horizontally like they "all" do. Where when you swipe the screen from left to right it open "your" favorite app. Swipe the screen from right to left and it opens the app try. I have also mentioned that a quick 3 tap on the home screen would zoom out showing a carousel of sorts that you can scroll through to select 1 of 9 home screens that can be filled to burst with your favorite widgets and apps. I dont have a preset color idea. Instead that we be afforded a color "wheel" to choose ourselves what collor basic things are. Be afforded to opportunity to make multiple themes like with ADW, that can installed "into" the rom. I assume everyone has seen the DROID commercials where the two robots select a few apps in the giant app "planet." That would be a sweet app tray wouldnt it? Would it be impossible? I dont know, since i have no idea how programming works. But im sure it would be quite the undertaking.
I would hope that this could be a place for anyone to post their ideas as well, not just mine. I also have this distinct feeling that as of my posts i will be held to a "imaginary" standard that it will be my obligation to post ideas and inspirations. But then therin lies my issue with roms today in general. These roms arent being made for me. If a developer makes anything like my idea, i want it to be something they want to see in android, not just because someone else said hey you develop roms, why dont you make this so i can have it.
This isnt/wasnt/never will be a thread to bash anyone including devs, themers, end users (other posters, but thats my point.) I wont bother to say im not going to be the only one. I dont have to post that. The sheer fact that you (the general population that bothers to read this thread) shows that wish there was more creativity, more originality,....hell....more of the "DEV" in his/her creation than anything else. It would make a developers rom/theme so much more their creation. So when someone says hey i have (for example) ThatDudeButch's new theme, its unique to HIM....the developer... and someone else that has a theme by Adiliyo (also for example) its going to be unique to HIM. Im really hoping all of you have the mental capacity (i used that term for lack of a better one, no offense intended for anyone) and the maturity level to understand that this is a challenge to all who design, develop, or theme, or even just dream to no longer be limited by the general public. Design whatever makes you get a stiffy if thats what it takes. What with the new 2.3 android os out, why should we hold the devs to make different copies of whats out. Why cant we encourage them to make the unthinkable....the un imagined...the roms that arent bound to a single line of influence.
If you (everyone and anyone) are going to post here simply to flame me for speaking my mind about what i would love to see roms and themes become, then perhaps you should consider keeping your comments to yourselves. BUT, this being a public forum, and i am no moderator, i cannot make anyone not post here, nor what they post about, so with that i will only ask that you not just post for the sake of singling out a line of any of my posts to make a snide comment on how its up to me/i need to design it/being too hard on devs ruining their commitment/etc etc. If we werent hard on engineers/developers/programmers in world-wide view considering the design of everything we use today, we wouldnt be in possession of the technological breakthroughs that we have now. We would all still have bag phones. Model A fords, if even that, we would still be riding horses....might i even be bold enough to state we wouldnt even be out of the stone age if it hadnt been for someone somewhere pushing those who build to do bigger and better things.
Please, use common sense people. Im simply issuing a challenge to devs/themers to not be constrained by our ideals. Again, to make what THEY want to make. Remember, they dont have to do this for us, so why cant they build what they want. And thats why i respect what they do.

agsded said:
"why reinvent the wheel?"
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Im not asking for a new wheel, only a more efficient one. Thats such an over-cliched term anyways and has no merit (in my view) If we never reinvented anything, we'd not be in the possession of these beauties of creation we have today. I bet someone told Henry Ford why reinvent the wheel when he said lets have a car that can be available to the common man. Do you think Ford would be the automotive supergiant they are now if he had followed that advice? Do you think we would have Windows OS, Mac, or any of the other available computing OS's that we have now would be available now if the designers had followed your sage advice?
Please realize, im not bashing you, any of you, im not going to stoop that low. We are all adults here, and even some teenagers, whom i hope utilize that powerful muscle between their ears before they use their fingers, so why must we criticize? Why cant we , as so eloquently put in an earlier post, come together as a community and share ideas.
Just saying.

Yeah, but see all those things you mentioned arent revolutionary leaps of accomplishment, but simply evolution of existing products... refinements..
Henry Ford simply took the concepts of mass production, the assembly line, and interchangeable parts, and applied them to the automotive field. He didn't invent something new, he "engineered" something better from what was already there. He made cars more affordable, available, and easier to repair.
Technology is no different... mechanical switches to electric switches to vacuum tubes to transistors to integrated circuits, they are just extensions of what's there.
We don't still use carburetors because fuel injection is more efficient, largely because it can meter the fuel more precisely, especially at idle. But..the first fuel injection setups were just electronic carburetors, with the old central port fuel injection systems... even the newer ones still do the same thing, just more precisely...
I'd love a smartphone that could read my thoughts and had a neural interface with zero lag. Is it coming.... who knows....is it a reinvention... no, just another step in between a previous one and the next.
Something to ponder.... at the core of all operating systems is basic math.
Add one value to another and put the result here. Stick the right combo of values in the right set of registers and a pixel lights up on the screen. That's the way machine language works...so all software is an evolution of ones and zeros...
A switch is on, 1 a switch is off, 0... so basically computers are just a big ginormous pile of light switches, lol..
Anyways.... I agree, I'd live to see some real neat stuff for android, but at some point, you'd have to throw out android to make it radically different, and then it would just be yet ANOTHER attempt at a mobile os to further fragment things....instead of moving forward, we'd be moving sideways....not as bad as moving backwards, but not progress either....
That's
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Just curious, but... How do you know devs aren't creating what they want? Why would they waste time building something that they didn't want to do?
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agsded said:
....instead of moving forward, we'd be moving sideways....not as bad as moving backwards, but not progress either....
That's
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I totally agree with you, but yet i also disagree. Which isnt a bad thing, at least we are agreeing to disagree i suppose lol But the point still stands. Why....why must we make do with what we have? Why not bring forth innovation? Is that not how progress is made? Im not looking for an overnight change in the way roms are designed. I only asking that the devs make it a challenge for themselves. Make something they havent done before. Im just winging this without black and white information, but how do we know that manufacturers dont look at these roms for their inspiration?
I'm only asking for that one ambitious dev who needs a challenge to strive for that next peg. The next rung on the ladder of progress. Yes Henry Ford didnt invent the automobile, but with his bringing the assembly line to his own needs he created something huge. Thats what im hoping devs will do for android. When we tire of out normal phone interfaces, to whom do we turn? Yes. thats right, these hard working devs. A vast majority of them create wonders with whats available to them. Others simply tweak and twist certain aspects to their own taste.
A phone that reads out thoughts with a neural interface with zero lag would indeed be a nice addition, but im certain 10 years down the road such a thing may come to be, but thats 10 years from now, if not more. Don't sell yourself short however, all ideas are welcome to me and to this thread. Its odd though, that with all the posts here i seem to be the only one who has put idea to page.
And to mr kevin gossett, How do we know they ARE. We dont. Its as simple as that. All that we can do is hope that there is a dev or 2 or even 3 out there that are willing to bring forth the new age of roms. We turn to these men and women because we are bored with our phones stock rom/theme, so why must the devs and us as end users together suffer the same style in the aftermarket themes and roms? Again not bashing devs here, just stating my opinion, that they need to make something that they love. there WILL be end users out there that will use their roms/themes. I still think some of you are missing my point with all of this, and instead strive to create some echelon of conflict purely for conflicts sake.
View my thread and posts as possible inspiration for the future. Not a bashing, or flaming of those who design for us. The DEVS create the roms, but the devs didnt design what they wanted to see, instead what we wanted to see. And i would love to see that reversed. The DEVS create what THEY want to see, and we use whatever we find to our tastes.

my head hurts

I think I understand what the OP is saying... But at the same time I kind of understand the other side of the fence. Coding is hard, and you must be very precise, and most of these guys are doing it for free. But I know what jdk is meaning....
I think he feels that the devs are limited in what they can create because they are branching off of other works and what people like. I think he wants to see what crazy ass stuff devs can come up with. he wants their creativities to explode all over his face. He wants to see what people can imagine and create. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as he understands the devs, that they have lives, they do this for free, and its hard work, which I think he does understand. I think he's just trying to inspire some folk.

[DISCUSSION] the Master ROM? (Collective Coding)

I have often wondered what would happen if we gathered our collective knowledge, in a scientific way to make a ROM to rule them all. I'm not a DEV, I wish I had time/expertise to get into it, but I don't. So there's a disclaimer I guess.
I get that people like different looks, different features, but what if there was a collective that worked on a single ROM?
Here are my thoughts:
I've often sat back and looked at/flashed different ROMs and wondered what really differentiates them. Some are "tuned" one way, or "optimized" another. I can't help but think there are a handful of devs who go about their whole devving life "trial and error" optimizing. Not saying this shouldn't happen, but what if there was a place where other devs said "hey, don't change that build.prop line unless you also change this other one here"?
It would be nice if we knew what every setting did, or was supposed to do, but that's asking too much. But, I can't help but think that our devs have to reinvent the wheel sometimes. How many threads have you seen about optimizing this or that? Or how about tweaks that become obsolete?
I'm not saying I have an answer, but I see what I think to be a problem, and the problem I see is that all our wonderful devs spending time and energy on things that have already been done before. I'm aware that a lot of "training" and transfer of knowledge happens on IRC, and that is good. But when DEVs have to move on or get new devices, is that wealth of knowledge preserved?
Perhaps I'm too naive, and it's not as easy as saying "that setting is fully optimized, don't touch" or "this setting has a lot of leeway" or "if you change that each device will react differently".
Was just wondering if some of the DEVs would chime in. I know there is a certain amount of satisfaction that comes from doing something for yourself from the ground up, no doubt about it. I've always been curious to know if the DEVs would/could gather up their talents en masse to accomplish something greater than the collective of what already exists.
Thanks!
...and I'm enjoying the ICS 9 Alpha very much, but the recent MIUI Tips thread is giving me an itch to flash something new =]

isnt that what cyanogenmod is?

s89281b said:
isnt that what cyanogenmod is?
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No. CM is designed to be a stable, well-performing platform that's optimized as much as possible, while remaining compatible.
OP, I understand where you're coming from, but a lot of what goes into development that isn't feature-add has tradeoffs. One might enhance performance at the expense of stability, or enhance stability at the expense of performance. Then there's the balance. Atop that, you do get plenty of things that may work perfectly on your device, but not at all on the next (many CPU/GPU related items, like overclocking/undervolting). The main reason there isn't a "master ROM" is that what's best for one user is not best for the whole. There's really no such thing as "best". Things that are widely known to be best practices will make their way into almost every ROM - for example, noCIQ here, pre-EL30 - but the rest won't.
The whole point of ROMs are to give users choice that the manufacturer did not. If there were only one 'master ROM', there'd be nothing to choose!
Now, as for knowledge preservation... Much of it is. A lot of what goes into popular ROMs are optimizations posted elsewhere, from around XDA. I have found many tips and tricks and tools and tinkers in the past, and used them extensively, because the vast majority of knowledge does stay searchable. IRC is just a tool for real-time support (guiding someone through something), for quick questions, or for real-time chat within dev communities.

Essentially what the OP is saying is that he wants a ROM just like an Apple iPhone, since the iPhone is basically the one ROM to rule them all
On a serious note, that is the beauty of Android because there really isn't one ROM to rule them all. Every one has their own opinion as to what is best for them and as k0nane says, sometimes you have to steal from Peter to give to Paul (Performance vs Stability).

k0nane said:
No. CM is designed to be a stable, well-performing platform that's optimized as much as possible, while remaining compatible.
OP, I understand where you're coming from, but a lot of what goes into development that isn't feature-add has tradeoffs. One might enhance performance at the expense of stability, or enhance stability at the expense of performance. Then there's the balance. Atop that, you do get plenty of things that may work perfectly on your device, but not at all on the next (many CPU/GPU related items, like overclocking/undervolting). The main reason there isn't a "master ROM" is that what's best for one user is not best for the whole. There's really no such thing as "best". Things that are widely known to be best practices will make their way into almost every ROM - for example, noCIQ here, pre-EL30 - but the rest won't.
The whole point of ROMs are to give users choice that the manufacturer did not. If there were only one 'master ROM', there'd be nothing to choose!
Now, as for knowledge preservation... Much of it is. A lot of what goes into popular ROMs are optimizations posted elsewhere, from around XDA. I have found many tips and tricks and tools and tinkers in the past, and used them extensively, because the vast majority of knowledge does stay searchable. IRC is just a tool for real-time support (guiding someone through something), for quick questions, or for real-time chat within dev communities.
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Thanks for the love k0nane =]
Can't you just humor me, and pretend we're playing Zelda, and say you are working on the Master ROM? hehehe
That's what I figured, I was just curious and thought I'd do a brain dump in case it helped =]
I know that ROM kitchens were on their way back before last summer, that sounded somewhat appealing, but they have a whole other slew of complications.
In the end, I am thoroughly thrilled with the products that come from our dev community. And let's be honest, given a little time, CM9 may become the ROM to rule them all.

adelmundo said:
Essentially what the OP is saying is that he wants a ROM just like an Apple iPhone, since the iPhone is basically the one ROM to rule them all
On a serious note, that is the beauty of Android because there really isn't one ROM to rule them all. Every one has their own opinion as to what is best for them and as k0nane says, sometimes you have to steal from Peter to give to Paul (Performance vs Stability).
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...I think I just spit up in my mouth.

MeetFace said:
Can't you just humor me, and pretend we're playing Zelda, and say you are working on the Master ROM? hehehe
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I did, on EI22, and never released it. That thing flew.

k0nane said:
I did, on EI22, and never released it. That thing flew.
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Zelda always was one elusive broad.