[DISCUSSION] the Master ROM? (Collective Coding)

[DISCUSSION] the Master ROM? (Collective Coding) - Epic 4G General

I have often wondered what would happen if we gathered our collective knowledge, in a scientific way to make a ROM to rule them all. I'm not a DEV, I wish I had time/expertise to get into it, but I don't. So there's a disclaimer I guess.
I get that people like different looks, different features, but what if there was a collective that worked on a single ROM?
Here are my thoughts:
I've often sat back and looked at/flashed different ROMs and wondered what really differentiates them. Some are "tuned" one way, or "optimized" another. I can't help but think there are a handful of devs who go about their whole devving life "trial and error" optimizing. Not saying this shouldn't happen, but what if there was a place where other devs said "hey, don't change that build.prop line unless you also change this other one here"?
It would be nice if we knew what every setting did, or was supposed to do, but that's asking too much. But, I can't help but think that our devs have to reinvent the wheel sometimes. How many threads have you seen about optimizing this or that? Or how about tweaks that become obsolete?
I'm not saying I have an answer, but I see what I think to be a problem, and the problem I see is that all our wonderful devs spending time and energy on things that have already been done before. I'm aware that a lot of "training" and transfer of knowledge happens on IRC, and that is good. But when DEVs have to move on or get new devices, is that wealth of knowledge preserved?
Perhaps I'm too naive, and it's not as easy as saying "that setting is fully optimized, don't touch" or "this setting has a lot of leeway" or "if you change that each device will react differently".
Was just wondering if some of the DEVs would chime in. I know there is a certain amount of satisfaction that comes from doing something for yourself from the ground up, no doubt about it. I've always been curious to know if the DEVs would/could gather up their talents en masse to accomplish something greater than the collective of what already exists.
Thanks!
...and I'm enjoying the ICS 9 Alpha very much, but the recent MIUI Tips thread is giving me an itch to flash something new =]

isnt that what cyanogenmod is?

s89281b said:
isnt that what cyanogenmod is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. CM is designed to be a stable, well-performing platform that's optimized as much as possible, while remaining compatible.
OP, I understand where you're coming from, but a lot of what goes into development that isn't feature-add has tradeoffs. One might enhance performance at the expense of stability, or enhance stability at the expense of performance. Then there's the balance. Atop that, you do get plenty of things that may work perfectly on your device, but not at all on the next (many CPU/GPU related items, like overclocking/undervolting). The main reason there isn't a "master ROM" is that what's best for one user is not best for the whole. There's really no such thing as "best". Things that are widely known to be best practices will make their way into almost every ROM - for example, noCIQ here, pre-EL30 - but the rest won't.
The whole point of ROMs are to give users choice that the manufacturer did not. If there were only one 'master ROM', there'd be nothing to choose!
Now, as for knowledge preservation... Much of it is. A lot of what goes into popular ROMs are optimizations posted elsewhere, from around XDA. I have found many tips and tricks and tools and tinkers in the past, and used them extensively, because the vast majority of knowledge does stay searchable. IRC is just a tool for real-time support (guiding someone through something), for quick questions, or for real-time chat within dev communities.

Essentially what the OP is saying is that he wants a ROM just like an Apple iPhone, since the iPhone is basically the one ROM to rule them all
On a serious note, that is the beauty of Android because there really isn't one ROM to rule them all. Every one has their own opinion as to what is best for them and as k0nane says, sometimes you have to steal from Peter to give to Paul (Performance vs Stability).

k0nane said:
No. CM is designed to be a stable, well-performing platform that's optimized as much as possible, while remaining compatible.
OP, I understand where you're coming from, but a lot of what goes into development that isn't feature-add has tradeoffs. One might enhance performance at the expense of stability, or enhance stability at the expense of performance. Then there's the balance. Atop that, you do get plenty of things that may work perfectly on your device, but not at all on the next (many CPU/GPU related items, like overclocking/undervolting). The main reason there isn't a "master ROM" is that what's best for one user is not best for the whole. There's really no such thing as "best". Things that are widely known to be best practices will make their way into almost every ROM - for example, noCIQ here, pre-EL30 - but the rest won't.
The whole point of ROMs are to give users choice that the manufacturer did not. If there were only one 'master ROM', there'd be nothing to choose!
Now, as for knowledge preservation... Much of it is. A lot of what goes into popular ROMs are optimizations posted elsewhere, from around XDA. I have found many tips and tricks and tools and tinkers in the past, and used them extensively, because the vast majority of knowledge does stay searchable. IRC is just a tool for real-time support (guiding someone through something), for quick questions, or for real-time chat within dev communities.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the love k0nane =]
Can't you just humor me, and pretend we're playing Zelda, and say you are working on the Master ROM? hehehe
That's what I figured, I was just curious and thought I'd do a brain dump in case it helped =]
I know that ROM kitchens were on their way back before last summer, that sounded somewhat appealing, but they have a whole other slew of complications.
In the end, I am thoroughly thrilled with the products that come from our dev community. And let's be honest, given a little time, CM9 may become the ROM to rule them all.

adelmundo said:
Essentially what the OP is saying is that he wants a ROM just like an Apple iPhone, since the iPhone is basically the one ROM to rule them all
On a serious note, that is the beauty of Android because there really isn't one ROM to rule them all. Every one has their own opinion as to what is best for them and as k0nane says, sometimes you have to steal from Peter to give to Paul (Performance vs Stability).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...I think I just spit up in my mouth.

MeetFace said:
Can't you just humor me, and pretend we're playing Zelda, and say you are working on the Master ROM? hehehe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did, on EI22, and never released it. That thing flew.

k0nane said:
I did, on EI22, and never released it. That thing flew.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zelda always was one elusive broad.

Related

Can we no longer ask opinion based questions?

Ok So whats this new level of idiocy, are we now trully saying that one can not ask a question that involkes opinions and subjective answers, the threads could contain factual information and objective opinions but i guess we shall never know beacuse they get closed...
I am actually supprised its got this low, if you think about it almost any question answered will be subjected to an opinional bias WE ARE HUMANS
So the two "Which ROM?" questions threads get closed i think we are all big enough to realise that what one person feels is good may not be to another but we all read reviews in mags, we all read reviews on the internet and they suffer the same problems with bias you cant remove that fact, you read the responces and judge for your self, blimey what is going on here!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=489979&page=2
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=490053

There are a ton of new ROMs out there now and it is impossible to get a "feel" of the way they perform unless you spend all of your time flashing ROMs. Constructive discussion of ROMs and their strong and weak points shouldn't be cause for public shame.

[URL=http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=canofwormsy.jpg]
[/URL]
or...
A: "Dutty's ROMs are the best!"
B: "F*** off, David's the best."
C: "You two know f*** all about ROMs; Neo's the best!"
--ad infinitum

Matterhorn said:
There are a ton of new ROMs out there now and it is impossible to get a "feel" of the way they perform unless you spend all of your time flashing ROMs. Constructive discussion of ROMs and their strong and weak points shouldn't be cause for public shame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, not everyone has the time, patience, ability, confidence to be flashing rom after rom, especially someone new to flashing. And for any user coming to these forums there is a bewildering amount of different roms and information. No one is asking for a be all and end all answer, but to get some opinions for a starting point can be very useful and inspire a bit of confidence to actually get going.
As long as constructive opinions are given, I personally don't see anything wrong in this. An answer as to why someone uses a rom for a particular reason may be the exact criteria that another person is looking for and might save that person a LOT of time and effort trying many roms first just to end up at that same rom.
The threads dazza mentioned I thought were being dealt with very constructively with some good advice in there. No one wants any flame war or anyone just being competitive with their chosen rom but please lets have some perspective, and credit most people with some intelligence and let some constructive discussion be allowed.

TraumaX said:
As long as constructive opinions are given, I personally don't see anything wrong in this. An answer as to why someone uses a rom for a particular reason may be the exact criteria that another person is looking for and might save that person a LOT of time and effort trying many roms first just to end up at that same rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree. What harm can come from contructive opinions. This may save a person numerous flashes and time. Where is the harm in that?
It saved me time when I first joined and flashed my first ROM!!

Indeed, ill not flash a ROM unless ive had a good read about others views, its my choice to listen to them or not, theres just simply too many ROMS and versions of ROMs to not allow this constructive debate.

Blackstone users have not invented the habit to ask about which ROM is the best, which to use, etc.
Threads like these get closed because very simple reasons: the discussions in the respective threads are based solely on subjective opinions and experiences.
Every ROM has description in the ROM thread and plenty of feedback inside. What might suit me would most probably not suit you. It all comes down to users' needs and what and how they use their devices. ROM expectations are based on these. Thus, asking questions about ROMs would normally generate answer pointing in a direction other users might find wrong.
All ROMs are public, with their description and feedback inside. Nobody stops users from testing and trying ROMs, according to their tasted and expectations.
I was the one closing those threads and will continue closing similar threads.
In case you have objections, complain to site Admin regarding this issue and do not throw your anger at the XDA community which supports us all.
Moving this thread to General as it has nothing to do with ROM developent!

tnyynt said:
In case you have objections, complain to site Admin regarding this issue and do not throw your anger at the XDA community which supports us all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With respect, I don't see any anger here towards XDA, just opinions again. I don't think anyone is suggesting people shouldn't read and do some research, of course they should, but there are a lot of roms, some with hundreds of pages of feedback, and it can be pretty daunting. To be sure, there is a lot of help within each of threads for the individual roms but to get some perspective and comparison of them from those who have already tried many of them with some (subjective) opinions can be extremely helpful in my view.

With respect, its not feasable to test every single ROM to get a feel for them all before maknig a choice, you dont buy a car by trying out every single car on the road, you read reviews which are ALL subjective and opinionated and then rate those experiences to your needs, that limits your choices which then allows you to try it out,
everyone knows that an opinion is just that, its a user opinion, its a view of that individual. To stop all subjective / opinionated remarks would effectively shut down the website.
For instance a thread on the Touch HDs camera speed would be factual in the sence that everyone knows its crap with moving pictures, but the thread would always be subjective since other users will notice this more, you cant stop that trate in humans its in our nature, so long as the comments are not designed to personally attack anothers view the thread will live an die on its on accord with out the need to moderate them.
With regards to why i published this, it is in the communities intrest to know what they can and cant do, im not attacking you personally for closing them, just the "rules" behind the decision. but if we are not able to keep this thread civil and it gets closed then yes ill pass on my comments to the admin instead.
We are all (mostly) adults on here lets not bring the nanny state here as well.

I can add my 5 cents here.... this is a well known problem, in every forum.
You can open a thread asking "What ROM are you using and WHY?" and IMHO this could be interesting, but asking " ROM Ratings...Your Opinions" or worst " What ROM is the best for me?" are tricky questions, because RATING and OPINIONS doesn't fit well together in the first case and BEST FOR you? ...who knows is the first answer I have in mind
This doesn't seems to have high relevance but those threads could be, on the dark side, "Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs)", starting a flame war against or pro single chefs.
Are "dangerous" threads, a thread, may be with a poll, "What rom are you using and WHY" could be dangerous but interesting and will survive ONLY if users are responsible and avoid a flame war
Thanks, 5 cents donated

As tynnyt said "this is not a blackstone problem".
This issue was discussed to death here : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466666
Thanks
Dave

i don't have time to test each rom and for each of them to test every aspects in order to have my own conclusion.
as many others from here, would very intersted in the answer wich rom is best, but i am old enough (you would be surprised) to know that there is no answer to that question. from different reasons, pointed enough around here
what i want to suggest is a different approach, ofcourse if mods and admins will find that useful
instead in statement like x rom is better than y rom, or z rom rules, maybe guys who use or test different roms can give a feedback to others, with little experience, time or dare, concerning few aspects of the rom
for instance:
user noris08 (me) uses frank's rom v.1.5.12345. i would qualify that like that:
- glamurous looking
- moderate usability
- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)
- not so good speed
- extremely good for memory management (75% free)
- fix following known issues:
1. fix stutters in audio playing
2. add hardware acceleration for coreplayer
3. 3G signal always on 5 bars
4. gps fix in 5 sec
4. so on
- noticed bugs:
1. alarm clock doesn't work in stand by
2. appoinments shown with 2 hours delay
3. so on
- i would recomend it for mutimedia users
- i would rate it 7/10
it is likely that will be only a few guys with big harts to post their impressions, but is more then nothing.
in this way maybe we will not hurt rom developers feelings by just comparing x rom with y rom. they will also have some feed back concerning their work, appart of "thanks and great job mate"
just a thought!
cheers to everybody!

I agree 100% with the above post.

That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.

we're all big and old enough to know the difference, i think its quite disrespectful to ban such questions for several reasons, but something that is quite relevent is language.
English isnt everyones native language, gramatically speaking it might read to us as "which is the best ROM ever" but that might not be what they ment.
but whatever, seems minds are made and common sence has taken another knock back at the expence of so called politcal correctness, in this case offending the egos of the cookers out strips the need for new inexperienced users wanting simple feedback from the community about something without having to drudge through 1000s of pages of posts and spending much of there free time trying out every last ROM out there.
Just seems crazy if you ask me.

tnyynt said:
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, this would be a good thread to start, i.e. benchmarking the ROMs procedure, software used, etc

tnyynt said:
That a somewhat more acceptable way of putting things. If you also agree on benchmarking the ROMs (procedure, software used, etc.) then every user can post results/bugs/appearance/etc. and you'd have a standardized way of centralizing information that would be based on facts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but using your logic, is it factual?
"- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)"
hell i have that ROM and its only lasting 10 days, instantly it becomes opinionated and subjectional
ok thats an extreme example, but even with a very well laid out feedback such as that people will disagree, you have to either ban them all or let adults use their own common sence.
I would like to say add guide lines for "which ROM" requests but another human trait is that they wont read them either.

dazza9075 said:
but using your logic, is it factual?
"- great battery life (15 days stand by - wouldn't you like that?)"
hell i have that ROM and its only lasting 10 days, instantly it becomes opinionated and subjectional
ok thats an extreme example, but even with a very well laid out feedback such as that people will disagree, you have to either ban them all or let adults use their own common sence.
I would like to say add guide lines for which ROM requests but another human trait is that they wont read them in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wasn't talking about battery (but even that could be reported as Radio + ROM + usage) but about using the same benchmark tool that needs to run in the same circumstances (i.e: after hard reset, manila disabled, etc.), about reporting memory usage after start up and after a day's usage, reporting bugs, etc.
I.E.:
SKTools benchmark:
X
X
X
X
Battery:
5 days with
A Radio
B Rom
X calls/day, X minutes of wifi, X no. of messages
Memory after startup:
X used
Storage memory after hard reset:
X used
Startup time:
X seconds from vibrate till stable today screen
etc.

id agree, a simple standardised benchmark runing a number of tests over a few hours would give a good account without the opinions, any suggestions?

dazza9075 said:
id agree, a simple standardised benchmark runing a number of tests over a few hours would give a good account without the opinions, any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You Guys find a way out and ellaborate the procedure that'd help you most. I gave you some hints. I'll support that, and I believe so will my fellow MOD colleagues.

Concerning jaxouk Thread on Best Roms

Okay firstly this is what jaxouk wrote:
I have read many posts where people are asking which is the best rom for my device (and have done myself) only to get abrupt replies with something like "how dare you ask this, chefs put a lot of effort into each rom and its down to personal preferance blah blah" ................"THREAD CLOSED"
Does every one think think this is the best way for xda to be run or is there other people that think this should be allowed to be debated? I know this is originally a developer forum, however I would hazard a guess that there is now more public users that devolpers.
The thing is developers develope roms and yes certainly they put a lot of time and effort into it and are respected rightly so for it. however can the end user really be expected not to be allowed to discuss these roms on the forum only to be told the above mensioned things. It happens time and again over and over. People like myself (the end user) do not have time to flash every rom to find the ones they like. (its a days setting up for myself after a flash) and if its crap (which there is no denying. some are) its a day wasted.
What I think the forum needs is a "ROM USER REVIEW" section where people like myself can go and rate a rom for other users referance.
Surely this is the key to better roms. If one developers rom is poor hes going to be able to see that its poor and will/might take the user rating / comments on board and the next time try harder.... ultimately producing a better rom.
Competition is what makes better products, If handset manufacturers took the same stance as xda we would be waiting for the realease of the o2 xda 2s later this year. and this is the same in all industries.
Okay so firstly Spot on and totally agree with you which as we all can see the majority of members using XDA agree with too.
Secondly this is what itje wrote who is a Moderator here:
I closed this thread, due to the same reason all the others that are similar all over xda are closed on sight.
These kind of threads usualy/always ends up in disputes and flamewars, there is always some hotheaded ppl who burst into flames when someone dont have the same view as they do.
So... sorry, yeah we close
So basically what you are saying is we as members are not allowed to treat XDA as a discussion forum as well as a Developer Forum? I thought the whole meaning to the word Forum, was for people to discuss there DIFFERENT opinions and have certain disputes with one another.
Sorry if people dont agree with this and please tell me why but I just think its silly that a mod would close a thread incase someone shouts and god forbid have an opinion.
Let me know what you guys think

It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.

I wasnt telling anyone how to run THIS forum I was basically explaining to everyone how a forum is normally run, if this is the way everyone likes it then fine but looking through 100's of posts and topics around here all I see is members and "noobs" getting put down from the likes of you.

crazy cat said:
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
me no understand

This has been explained again and again.
Personal and objective opinions are not allowed here. So if you can't make your own judgement on which ROM's to use you might want to stick to the stock ROM. Or The best thing to do is setup your own personal blog for these types of things. Then you can say what you want.
This will be another thread closed soon i feel.

It's impossible to determine what 'the best rom' would be...
Some ppl love a transparent clock, others hate it.
Same with the slider bar.
Same with themes.
Some ppl love a windows build with the start button on the top, some ppl love it with the button on the bottom.
Some ppl love to have a crapload of apps installed, some ppl hate it.
Some ppl love to have the newest unstable build, some ppl want the secure and stable one.
I might love a rom and you might hate it, the only objective criteria is how stable a rom is but even that can be debated. So you just have to try, see what works for you and go from there.

thread closed (i wish)

i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards

noris08 said:
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread. The truth be known many of the problems users face are due to them not following instruction or due to some other incompatible software there are trying to use and then they blame their problems on the ROM creator. The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
I understand what people want and this is why I made the statement to open your own blog or site to do these things and then link to here.

i have to agree. cooker cooks a rom and we rate it. if it was just "cook, post, upload, thread closed" in res of the world then everyone would buy apple, but cause its the information age we need to know what is what and where is where.
this should be even more seen here on "professional" forum like xda-developers.
i totaly agree with OP.
@bazgee: saying that 'noobs' shouldnt talk.. makes you so much more a 'noob'. your ass wasn't born smart and so wasn't OPs.
bobsbbq said:
Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread.
....
The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is what forums are for!! To ASK, and to ANSWER!!

Edit; I'm not going to say something, post removed.

Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.

Developers Forum?
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway. The end users play a massive role in here, determining bugs, requesting new features or feature removal and indeed critiquing the ROM within its own thread.
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
I'm sure it is more to do with protecting the ROM developers so that the ones who's ROMs may be bottom of the pile don't walk away, which is fair enough.
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
The moderators don't 'need' to do anything (We will all be here anyway) but if they have some respect then they should take on board and accomodate what appears to be the opinion of a vast number of users.
I'm sure there is some middle ground somewhere if we try and look ....

Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
I'm not sure consolve vs PC is quite the same a comparing different ROMs as they have the same hardware, similar architecture, purpose etc Your also getting a little needlesly condescending now ;-)
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.

mwillems2 said:
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I'm trying to understand what are you on about, but I can't. What is constructive information according to you?
You have ROM description on the first page, you can check the last few if there are any issues with it. What else do you want?
[/QUOTE]

i agree what bobsbbq said ,is not fair to say that this rom is good and this rom is better but if you try the other rom is far more better,is dissrespectul from the chefs trying to help you guys having best rom's avialible and to open another thread to say things like that is bad,so for me i choose my own judgement and would not ask others wich rom is best,so this thread is closed

mwillems2 said:
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're saying this like it is somehow an acceptable, or possibly even a good thing. It is not.
It's true that this forum is now visited by people who:
cannot be bothered to read the first post of any thread
have no intention of educating themselves, only blindly consuming
will shamelessly ***** and make demands about things they are getting for free
These people do not make the community "better" in any way, and this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated in my view.
mwillems2 said:
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heated discussions in themselves do not need to escalate any further. They are already a waste of everybody's time, and have no place here.
mwillems2 said:
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm relatively sure the user who is seriously interested in testing and reporting is not in need of a completely seperate thread to voice their opinion on which ROM is somehow "best". For testers it's not constructive to voice opinions about a ROM in any other thread than the original ROM thread.
mwillems2 said:
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not so sure about that. I've seen plenty of chefs say that they basically cook for themselves, and just like to share. Even if they are cooking for the community, they do not need people to praise or diss their ROM's in any other thread than their own.
Overall, I feel the biggest problem with having a centralized ROM discussion thread is the intented audience: people who cannot be bothered to test and compare by themselves, people who cannot be bothered to read individual ROM threads.
What would be the point in creating a new thread for these people? Once it gets beyond 1 page, they will not bothered to read it anyway.

for me personally these "top 20s" don't have any value whatsoever but i understand why so many people want them. some of them are just lazy and want to avoid to read the threads, others are not able to think for themselves and need to be told what is good or bad for them and there are those who want to become famous reviewers.
for cryin' out loud, don't fix what is not broken! this forum is perfect as it is. moderators, don't let the comorades tell you what to do!

Volw said:
How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think is better we not make comparative, believe it is better for all!!
but if you say it is impossible to compare among themselves the Rom, you're wrong!

lol reopened.
anyway i belive this huld be discussed. we are here three levels of people. so this will need for 1st level, and 2nd level will be trying the roms and giving feed backs. so 3rd level always will be cooking and editing roms. just my opinion.
lets start the work.. i go for duttys HG V.08

ROM Vote - Support Your Favorites!

I posted in an earlier thread that I was getting worried that there is so much noise in the Evo development section that high quality ROMs by dedicated programmers were getting lost in the fracas of those that feel slapping a new wallpaper on a ROM qualified as its own distribution.
I was thinking that the best solution would be to see if the community would be interested in a way to uprank and downrank distributions in a one stop gateway that would help everyone clearly see which ROMs are the brightest and the best.
To that effect, I've created a Google Moderator series that lists ROMs. You can put a checkbox next to the ones you support, and an X if there is one (or some) in particular that you had some bad mojo with. If one you love isn't there, you're more than free to add it yourself to get the voting going!
The best part is, you can change your votes at any time!
http://bit.ly/aaZbOD
This may work, this may suck. Time will tell if this can become at all useful

If you dig this idea, please bump it for awareness. Otherwise, we can let it disappear.
No harm, no foul
We've had 15 people contribute so far. The more we get, the more comprehensive the data!

I'll bump this. Before I used to check the thread rating and whichever ROM thread had the best rating, I would go in and test it out. This could help out.

This'll definitely help in deciding a ROM to flash. Bump.

Sure I'll support this...
NOTE: please don't use this list as a bible...once we start rooting phones, they can tend to have a mind of their own. Some roms run great on some phones but are unstable on others. Same goes for kernels and themes. Remember, YMMV.

Great Idea.

jd9900 said:
Sure I'll support this...
NOTE: please don't use this list as a bible...once we start rooting phones, they can tend to have a mind of their own. Some roms run great on some phones but are unstable on others. Same goes for kernels and themes. Remember, YMMV.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. Hopefully the whole "wisdom of the crowds" thing can at least push people in the right direction.
You all owe it to yourself and your phone to read the threads associated with these ROMs before flashing though!

I removed two added suggestions that did not follow the style of the vote. Please add roms not "MORE ROMS PLZ"

Awesome idea. Will vote.

Sticky this. I think it would clear up alot of questions too. Id say combine this idea with the release matrix from androidspin.com would be great.
for reference to what im talking about
http://db.androidspin.com/androidsp...id_build_base_os=&android_developer_id=&go=go

bump
this will be good for those rooting from froyo
sent from my baby. . . the evo 4-gees

I think that it's a great idea to add some sorting/ratings/details about all the roms out there, to anyone that hasn't been on these forums a while I'd assume it's quite overwhelming.
I'm not sure what the best idea is, as voting in a thumbs up/down fashion might not be the greatest way to show evaluation, I'm sure a lot of people with negatives are gonna be the ones with bugs or couldn't get it to work right.
In the end, I think rom reviews would be ideal, if we could get someone to do them. I remember shopping for a Nintendo DS cart, if anyone is familiar with them, and I found a website that had frequently updated reviews of the different available cartridges from the various teams that made them, and even though everyone knew the R4 brand cartridge I was able to get a good feel for the developers and features I was choosing from and I chose another brand that I was quite happy with.
I think voting makes it a popularity vs people with bugs/problems contest, more detailed voting (stars/categories) would end up being too tedious for most, and the spreadsheets, tho useful, don't really tell you everything you need to know.
Reviewers can also make the community more aware of who is making our kernels, the differences between them, available themes, battery life comparisons, etc.
We just need to find some people that swap roms enough and would be willing to do the write ups...

i think it will become a popularity contest which is part of the point, but the problem i see is that there are many die hard fans of this rom or that rom and i have no doubt they will negatively rate other roms just to try to move there fav rom up the list whether or not they used the rom, was something wrong with it, or not.
I think any type of ranking system is more hurtful then helpful. If you are a dev for a rom that isnt as popular or is new you may show at the bottom of the list even though your rom is bug free stable and fast. If people use this list as a true reference they will see your rom at the bottom or not on it at all and assume your rom isnt very good this could be very discouraging to the devs that even though they work hard and have a very solid rom they may not get many users and may be considered a "bad" rom since they haven't been around as long or arent one of the big 4-5 that people frequently use.
just my take on it. i like the review idea of the above user that along with nief's rom comparison that actually compares performance and battery life i think is the most helpful personally giving every rom its fair chance. it also takes popularity out of it to some degree and gives newer roms a fair chance vs coming in down 1000 votes.

I agree but people certainly do gravitate toward quality.
I took a lot of time to think about what the best way of doing this would be, and Moderator seems to be the best idea:
1. Reviews get outdated with each iteration. What you cite as problems now, can be fixed tomorrow.
2. The benchmarking idea is also bad since each phone is different. My phone pegged in the high 40s on old Linpack on most ROMs where others were seeing mid thirties. Again, outdated is an issue.
3. A poll on the site doesn't allow for other ROMs to be added easily
4. You can always change your mind.
Unfortunately, since the question is "what is everyone's favorite ROMs" is technically a popularity question, a popularity contest is what it is.

shameless TTT

Bump! Sticky?

Bump for fantastic happy goodness.

If this would have saved us from the inevitable 400 other threads started each week asking, "which ROM should I flash?", I think it could have been a great idea!

You have my vote I support it.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

ROMs ROMs and more ROMs

Can someone tell me whats up with the 50+ ICS ROMs? It's a bit concerning that all this effort seems to be put into reproducing the same exact thing. I think the community would benefit from cooperation rather than competition... But I feel like I must be missing something here, I am new to the Nexus S but not to Android, is there something about the Nexus S community that I'm not getting?
Not complaining at all, or should I say, I'm not trying to complain. I also want to point out that I appreciate the developers who pour their time and effort into our devices and help us to get the maximum value out of them.
(Want to note, I am running AOSP's ICS build and loving it.)

joenathane said:
Can someone tell me whats up with the 50+ ICS ROMs? It's a bit concerning that all this effort seems to be put into reproducing the same exact thing. I think the community would benefit from cooperation rather than competition... But I feel like I must be missing something here, I am new to the Nexus S but not to Android, is there something about the Nexus S community that I'm not getting?
Not complaining at all, or should I say, I'm not trying to complain. I also want to point out that I appreciate the developers who pour their time and effort into our devices and help us to get the maximum value out of them.
(Want to note, I am running AOSP's ICS build and loving it.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey Man, I am much similar to where you are right now. I am not new to Nexus S or Android, but I feel that the abundance of ROMs is a good thing.
Having so many ROMs shows that the device is still running very strong: Something Android phones NEED to have behind them.
On the other hand I dislike it. To all the developers out there, I think you guys are amazing and genius no doubt. So take the following lightly...
What people don't like to see when browsing for a ROM is a dozen ROMs that are all identical. We need something new and fresh, hence why I like MIUI.
What I think should be done is as you said, have co-operation to make one master ROM because we have hundreds of people in the Nexus S community ready to help.
Speaking on my behalf I HATE SO MANY ROMs Because I simply cannot decide which is best because they are all similar in many ways, and I don't have time to try each one out as much as I want to. I do like having these ROMs but when it comes to choosing one its a big choice for me.
Any feedback on this?

I agree with a not so great abundance or ROMs. But most are not devs. They are simply "chefs" because they never actually developed anything. They just price and scrap things from source to mods. Cm9, ASOP, Peter A(because of his radios and kernal) are devs. We have lots of chefs.
I made brickROM just because of this situation. Its never been done, but the community wasn't ready for it yet.
Either way you can tell what rom has Is "real" I would say there's about only 5
And its sad for new Android users that come here get presided by a catching slogan and rob themselves from using a much better rom
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

What would you do if you don't like any of the existing ROMs? May be one is missing a feature you need, another just has too many features you don't want? The answer is simple -- create your own ROM, or modify an existing one... I think most devs just make the ROM they want to use as their daily driver and simply share it here (i.e. what's going on is not about competition, at least from my point of view)
It sounds good to gather all devs to create a ROM that suits everyone's needs, but IMHO it is nearly impossible to do that

suksit said:
What would you do if you don't like any of the existing ROMs? May be one is missing a feature you need, another just has too many features you don't want? The answer is simple -- create your own ROM, or modify an existing one... I think most devs just make the ROM they want to use as their daily driver and simply share it here (i.e. what's going on is not about competition, at least from my point of view)
It sounds good to gather all devs to create a ROM that suits everyone's needs, but IMHO it is nearly impossible to do that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But these futures found in everyone's ROM are just mods that you can flash. I flash 8 zips with every rom update but I know that a personal mix so I have no need to share it.
I'm capiale of changing my waklppaer
I flash custom font, and inverted apps with some tyranny Widgets and kernal. With gnex sounds. No reason to "cook" it. This is not development.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

Reserved
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

suksit said:
It sounds good to gather all devs to create a ROM that suits everyone's needs, but IMHO it is nearly impossible to do that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The CyanogenMod team pull it off quite well, all that is needed is a bug tracker and patch review system and boom! instant cooperation.
Maybe we have too many "chefs" in the kitchen

joenathane said:
The CyanogenMod team pull it off quite well, all that is needed is a bug tracker and patch review system and boom! instant cooperation.
Maybe we have too many "chefs" in the kitchen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am agree with you CyanogenMod need a bug tracker for CM9.

Here is an interesting fact in case anyone didn't know but MR. Cyanogen himself is rocking a Nexus S http://twitter.com/#!/cyanogen/status/153353404159234049
I wonder what build of ICS he is running, probably from his own private reserve...

joenathane said:
The CyanogenMod team pull it off quite well, all that is needed is a bug tracker and patch review system and boom! instant cooperation.
Maybe we have too many "chefs" in the kitchen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will be honest here and say that I personally dislike Cyanogen Mod for the most part. True that they are the gut best in performance, but if the only ROM I had was Cyanogen, I would not be very happy with it. I just think that for my favor, Cyanogen focus' so much on power, yet takes the look of the ROM as a after thought. The modified music on Cyanogen ROMs and the overall execution of his work lacks style and design, as if he first said "Make it fast, then maybe make it look ok" MIUI on the other hand has a great deal invested in how it looks which gives a very effective illusion of performance.
I think that the problem is we have so many chefs in that small kitchen and they have all made so many great dishes that sooner or later they will have eventually all used the same spices by some point, so we are beginning to lose that uniqueness in each one.

LGIQEXPO said:
I will be honest here and say that I personally dislike Cyanogen Mod for the most part. True that they are the gut best in performance, but if the only ROM I had was Cyanogen, I would not be very happy with it. I just think that for my favor, Cyanogen focus' so much on power, yet takes the look of the ROM as a after thought. The modified music on Cyanogen ROMs and the overall execution of his work lacks style and design, as if he first said "Make it fast, then maybe make it look ok" MIUI on the other hand has a great deal invested in how it looks which gives a very effective illusion of performance.
I think that the problem is we have so many chefs in that small kitchen and they have all made so many great dishes that sooner or later they will have eventually all used the same spices by some point, so we are beginning to lose that uniqueness in each one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only problem with that is Miui uses CyanogenMod code as a base(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIUI#Development) and CyanogenMod 7 has the theme chooser integrated for easy themeing(check the last three links in my signature to see some themes I created for it).
I don't think any mod team have contributed more to Android than the CyanogenMod Team, they certainly have my respect for that.
I agree about the spices, all these chefs cooking the same exact entree and now which on to choose...

joenathane said:
The only problem with that is Miui uses CyanogenMod code as a base(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIUI#Development)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a fact, not a problem.
Back on topic,
LGIQEXPO said:
I think that the problem is we have so many chefs in that small kitchen and they have all made so many great dishes that sooner or later they will have eventually all used the same spices by some point, so we are beginning to lose that uniqueness in each one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe at some point the community will decide which dishes live and which will die. I don't think people will keep posting ROMs if nobody uses it.

suksit said:
It's a fact, not a problem.
Back on topic,
I believe at some point the community will decide which dishes live and which will die. I don't think people will keep posting ROMs if nobody uses it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This^^ plus one thing, good all these chefs are popping up, that's showing a swell in number of people interested in development, in the end it can only have a positive outcome. Let em dev.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

suksit said:
It's a fact, not a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I obviously didn't mean problem in that sense, I meant it as in the 'problem' with his argument not the problem with CyanogenMod or Miui, I'm not sure how you interpreted it the way you did...
suksit said:
I believe at some point the community will decide which dishes live and which will die. I don't think people will keep posting ROMs if nobody uses it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what about the "noobs" who are instantly confronted with 20+ ICS ROMs and not a clue to which is worth its weight in salt?

joenathane said:
I obviously didn't mean problem in that sense, I meant it as in the 'problem' with his argument not the problem with CyanogenMod or Miui, I'm not sure how you interpreted it the way you did...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if I interpreted it wrong (English is not my native language anyway ) I thought you're trying to imply that "since MIUI is based on CM, @LGIQEXPO shouldn't compare them together" or "if you like MIUI, it means you already liked CM." Just wanted to say that it is not a problem if one wants to compare those two.
joenathane said:
what about the "noobs" who are instantly confronted with 20+ ICS ROMs and not a clue to which is worth its weight in salt?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Occasionally I'd see a thread titled "Help me decide which ROM is best" and the most popular answer would be "Why don't you try them all?" Yeah it would be madness to try all 20+ ROMs in a row, but I don't think anyone will do that.
Before flashing a ROM, I'd (suggest them to) read everything in the first few posts by the OP, and take a look at the screenshots (most of the time I can decide if I will like this ROM or not by these two factors) If those "noobs" are not too ignorant I believe they'll have a small list of ROM(s) they want to try (may be 4-5 choices, which is reasonable.)

I know it is on the same code, but I more so meant the apps that MIUI re-did for their ROMs, and how they offer a nice end user appeal.
What would be amazing is if all the known devs of these ROMs would just once come together to use their own strengths, and make a mast ROM out of it. MIUI Design and style, Cyanogen tweaks and speed, Peter A. stability, the overclocking everything! (I can't wait for that hahah )

you want fewer rom, get a ns4g. Although we only have a fraction of the roms found in the other forum, they all seem to have their own distinct character.

i was using an SII before this so i was a frequent on that part of xda.. they do have a separate page for original development and another one for development (being kitchen products)

Hey,
Just wanted to add my opinion in all of this that there are so many "equal" roms.
I as some mentioned on another thread am a chef to rom developing, and I don't mind.
Why I do this is because I don't have the time or knowledge to create Android source apps so I take what I think is the best from each rom and create my own.
For example for me CM9 is way to bloated with too many configurations and options I prefer a more real cleaner AOSP, something like Peter Alfonso (buglessBeast), but I do like the T9 dialer from CM9, so I cherry-pick that from CM9 and add it to a PA base.
Also for the notifications power menu I liked TeamKang one so I added that. That way I'm making my own custom rom to my liking and also I don't have to be flashing 20 zips every time there is a new update or wipe my phone
I just thought on sharing it just if some one has the same likes in roms I'm no asking for anything in return. Also I do this in my little free time.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App

mandaman2k said:
Hey,
Just wanted to add my opinion in all of this that there are so many "equal" roms.
I as some mentioned on another thread am a chef to rom developing, and I don't mind.
Why I do this is because I don't have the time or knowledge to create Android source apps so I take what I think is the best from each rom and create my own.
For example for me CM9 is way to bloated with too many configurations and options I prefer a more real cleaner AOSP, something like Peter Alfonso (buglessBeast), but I do like the T9 dialer from CM9, so I cherry-pick that from CM9 and add it to a PA base.
Also for the notifications power menu I liked TeamKang one so I added that. That way I'm making my own custom rom to my liking and also I don't have to be flashing 20 zips every time there is a new update or wipe my phone
I just thought on sharing it just if some one has the same likes in roms I'm no asking for anything in return. Also I do this in my little free time.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for adding your voice to the discourse.
If I was asked to offer an opinion on what you do, this is what I would say....
I think what you do is okay for you, but the problem is when you release it. There is a problem because as you state, you cherry pick features and/or "code" from other ROMs, and that can/will lead to issues for your user base. Lets take for example the T9 dialer, what happens when security bugs are found and fixed and optimizations make it into an update of the T9 dialer? Well that would mean you would need to update your ROM, but what if you're busy with your job or just with life and are too busy to get around to it? Well now your users of your ROM are without those security, bug fixes and optimizations, and multiply that by all the other pieces of the ROM that you cherry picked from other sources.
My point here to be clear is that due to the nature of your ROM, it will always lag in patches to security issues, bug fixes and optimizations and I think that is ultimately a disservice to your user base.
There is a value that you create, so I guess the question here is, does that value of bringing all these pieces into one convenient package outweigh the negatives of the lagging patches/fixes?
I mean no offense, and I hope this isn't taken as such, I just want to encourage some discourse on these things...

Database Users

welcome