About a week ago, I sent an email to all the HTC brass inquiring about the 30FPS cap that most of us are familiar with. An hour later, I received a "canned response", from one of their customer service reps assuring me that this was done "on purpose" to maximize battery life as well as enhance the user experience.
Story short, Keith Nowak, presumably a high ranking HTC exec, sent me back an email with a lengthy explanation of why the cap was in place. I was originally going to write a story about it for the blog I work for, however, it just doesn't seem worth it now since the information he's given me is basically the same thing that some of us have speculated. Interestingly enough however, he did retract the battery saving and user experience comments that I was first given.
Anyways, check it out:
Hi Adam-
My apologies for the delay in responding, we were investigating this issue, and I wanted to be sure I understood all of the facts before I responded.
Regarding the 30 FPS limitation on the HTC EVO 4G. This is simply a limitation of the hardware used in the device. The HDMI output that delivers HD content is, as you would expect, very resource intense, and as such, puts a limit on the output that can be used for the main display. However, even though there is a 30 FPS limitation, this is roughly equivalent to what most video content (TV and movies) is filmed in (24-30 FPS), meaning that in the vast majority of cases, this is not going to pose any issues for end users.
We have seen reports of a hack that purports to “fix” this, but after investigation, it turns out that this hack is simply allowing data to be pushed through the display interface at a higher speed than it can reasonably handle – resulting in, as you would expect, a choppy, unacceptable image of very poor quality.
I am not sure where information regarding “enhancing the user experience” or “maximize battery life” – but if it came from HTC, please let me know, and we will address the issue, as this is not correct information.
Best-
Keith Nowak
HTC
infamousjax said:
Hi Adam-
My apologies for the delay in responding, we were investigating this issue, and I wanted to be sure I understood all of the facts before I responded.
Regarding the 30 FPS limitation on the HTC EVO 4G. This is simply a limitation of the hardware used in the device. The HDMI output that delivers HD content is, as you would expect, very resource intense, and as such, puts a limit on the output that can be used for the main display. However, even though there is a 30 FPS limitation, this is roughly equivalent to what most video content (TV and movies) is filmed in (24-30 FPS), meaning that in the vast majority of cases, this is not going to pose any issues for end users.
We have seen reports of a hack that purports to “fix” this, but after investigation, it turns out that this hack is simply allowing data to be pushed through the display interface at a higher speed than it can reasonably handle – resulting in, as you would expect, a choppy, unacceptable image of very poor quality.
I am not sure where information regarding “enhancing the user experience” or “maximize battery life” – but if it came from HTC, please let me know, and we will address the issue, as this is not correct information.
Best-
Keith Nowak
HTC
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That is a downright lie. It is something he is simple overemphasizing about vsync issues with the Epson panel, which will be fixed because the devs here are hard at work.
Sure, it is a dirty hack, but the current method works fine. Completely, smooth and superb 'image quality,' and it makes it LESS choppy.
Hmm, they should just release all their sorce code so the devs here can tear it apart.
..yeahhh..i'm not one to be quick to call bs, but come on! I'm running ffolkes Novatek kernel on Fresh 0.5.3 and again, maybe it is just some "hack"..but bottom line is the difference is night and day! The response time is outta this world!
Sounds to me like he has no tech background, and that response was something that he was told to say. I wouldn't imagine at his position he would know the insides of phones and how they work or can be manipulated.
OP, you should reply back asking why use/waste all the resources on a feature that won't be used on a daily basis (maybe once or twice a month, if at all).
OP, if you do reply back. Consider including a link to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjTo602sQM
That is nothing but improvement in display quality right there.
Video is from this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=713311
infamousjax said:
We have seen reports of a hack that purports to “fix” this, but after investigation, it turns out that this hack is simply allowing data to be pushed through the display interface at a higher speed than it can reasonably handle – resulting in, as you would expect, a choppy, unacceptable image of very poor quality.
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Bull****. I made the video proving it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjTo602sQM
Tell Keith to salvage his credibility he needs to produce an honest answer. Ask him if he wants to see my run Youtube, or an mp4 video, or anything else, to drop me a line. I'll be happy to continue demonstrating how wrong he is.
The topic on HTC's forum is on page 10. Let's make sure it stays on the front page so support realizes it's a huge customer issue.
http://community.htc.com/na/htc-forums/android/f/94/t/3186.aspx
c'mon, lets not start grilling and roasting htc execs. These people are trying to help us and have been very informative on assisting us with this NEW device.
chances are, like said above, he probably forwarded the email directly to the engineering department (probably to someone we cant directly connect with) and got this answer.
i say, to knock it off with all the pushing and shoving of the FPS issue, and lets not end up on their bad side. Theyve been doing a great job so far. If the devs simplify and figure out a better way for us to maximize FPS, then so be it... Its not worth calling people liars and dishonesty.
This makes me sad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilx_cpGZczM
TorxT3D said:
c'mon, lets not start grilling and roasting htc execs. These people are trying to help us and have been very informative on assisting us with this NEW device.
chances are, like said above, he probably forwarded the email directly to the engineering department (probably to someone we cant directly connect with) and got this answer.
i say, to knock it off with all the pushing and shoving of the FPS issue, and lets not end up on their bad side. Theyve been doing a great job so far. If the devs simplify and figure out a better way for us to maximize FPS, then so be it... Its not worth calling people liars and dishonesty.
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Really? Are you being serious? They are trying to help us, how? First, according to them, they are tying up all the resources due to HDMI, which may be a great feature, but is not going to be used by many at all. Second, yeah, they have been doing a great job so far, RIGHT. I guess that's why the Evo had the light leaks, screen separations, other issues as well with the phone so far like bad wifi signal and poor battery.
If they really want to help, they would have released the source code already.
KERKEDAGAIN said:
..yeahhh..i'm not one to be quick to call bs, but come on! I'm running ffolkes Novatek kernel on Fresh 0.5.3 and again, maybe it is just some "hack"..but bottom line is the difference is night and day! The response time is outta this world!
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where can i get this "hacked" kernel from and will it kill the camera ?
The last HTC rep I spoke to has assured me that they're working on a fix for the 30FPS cap.
TorxT3D said:
c'mon, lets not start grilling and roasting htc execs. These people are trying to help us and have been very informative on assisting us with this NEW device.
chances are, like said above, he probably forwarded the email directly to the engineering department (probably to someone we cant directly connect with) and got this answer.
i say, to knock it off with all the pushing and shoving of the FPS issue, and lets not end up on their bad side. Theyve been doing a great job so far. If the devs simplify and figure out a better way for us to maximize FPS, then so be it... Its not worth calling people liars and dishonesty.
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+1
I am all for better FPS - but even with 30 fps can you honestly tell me you can tell the gears moving better? I can't tell. I have tried both. I went back to another ROM and its not enabled. I can't tell. I get smooth movement. I am not overclocked and my quadrant on 2.1 with no JIT, etc. is around 590.
I get 30fps on gears and 25.1FPS on NeoCore but without seeing those numbers I could not tell the difference between the two in regards to better frames. I have ran both. The only difference for me is the Froyo 2.2 EVOA which is smoother in screen transitions and can multi-task much better in regards to updating and installing severals apps at a time. Otherwise video has yet to create a margin that is noticeable to me.
It has nothing to do with gears moving faster and if you had applied the 30 fps breaking kernel you would see that everything in the os is snappier including scrolling, touch lag etc..
you could just try to play a simple game like doodle jump and you'll notice the difference immediately
jblazea50 said:
you could just try to play a simple game like doodle jump and you'll notice the difference immediately
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Works just fine on the new OTA...
jblazea50 said:
If they really want to help, they would have released the source code already.
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Seriously. We need to just stop asking for a 30FPS cap fix and just keep asking for the source code because honestly, with the source code the devs could just fix most, if not all of this crap already.
jblazea50 said:
you could just try to play a simple game like doodle jump and you'll notice the difference immediately
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I do - I enjoy that game for a while now. I have it loaded on every ROM along with Robo Defense.
What is the BIG difference?
I notice little things about everything so when improvement is made I make comments. But there hasn't been much improvement in that area.
The camera much snappier and the pictures are much better in daylight. I took some great pictures to test at High Resolution and I am impressed with the camera. Before it was just so-so but now some of the pictures of the same images are greatly improved upon for sharpness and color saturation.
See so I do notice differences - perhaps not in the FPS but in other things
Related
Well i was never going to just dive in and order the hd until i heard some critical feedback first.
After hearing very mixed reviews and the fact I had already sent back my HTC touch Diamond because i didn't get on with it at all leads me to think it will be the same problem here.
g4orce99 said:
Well i was never going to just dive in and order the hd until i heard some critical feedback first.
After hearing very mixed reviews and the fact I had already sent back my HTC touch Diamond because i didn't get on with it at all leads me to think it will be the same problem here.
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IMO, I had a Diamond, then a Pro and now an HD. I liked the Pro, it was a lot better than the Diamond, faster and more stable and better options, but with my failing eye sight , I'm convinced I made the right decision with the HD for the screen alone It has some bugs for sure but it's very early for the HD. In a few months, I'm sure most of the bugs will be worked out by the geniuses of XDA, so I'm prepared to wait. It's called being on the bleeding edge and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Again, just my opinion.
You should define your requirements first. Then research to ensure that your choice is the best one given all the options out there. You may not have a perfect solution, but you can be sure you have made the best choice among all available option, if you go with that approach.
What do you need to do? Do you use GPS at all? Do you enjoy listening to radio a lot? What sorts of videos do you play? Are you a going to take lots of photos with it? Do you need long battery life? Are you the type of person who can put up with some learning to get familiar with the winmo environment? ....
Without defining your requirements, I guaranteee you will not be pleased with any device in the world, because there will always be something that do not please you.
Having said that, you may want to know that only 1.4% of the buyers think that HD is below average in this poll. About 96% of people polled give it a satisfaction ranking of 7 or better out of 10. Close to 91% rank it 8 or better out of 10.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=446920
The area that rank most highly to require improvement, not surprisingly, is the lack of Video acceleration, as you can see in this poll:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=449161
Having said that, HD performs better than SEXXI, which may be another very good WINMO device that you might be considering. HD's video playback beats SEXXI by about 12%, according to this test:
http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=news&id=6249
Also, please be aware that all of us are expecting this number one weakness of HD (video playback, if you interpret the poll that way) to be somewhat addressed by the soon to be released version 1.3 of Coreplayer. See this thread for details.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=446620
Just also be aware that about 1/4 of the users here are experiencing frequent freezing requiring soft resets while 3/4 are experiencing infrequently. Not all who experience this frequently are bothered. It depends I guess on their expectation and past experience.
Hope this helps you to decide.
eaglesteve said:
Just also be aware that about 1/4 of the users here are experiencing frequent freezing requiring soft resets while 3/4 are experiencing infrequently. Not all who experience this frequently are bothered. It depends I guess on their expectation and past experience.
.
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Ain't it the toll for winmo? I mean, not really specific to the HD. The amazing library of software, registery tuning and alternative drivers has a price: bugs, crash, freeze.. and we have to put the hands in the engine more than what one may expect. Sometimes testing and fixing is fun, sometimes we would like to simply use the device without being bothered.
It can be disappointing for those coming from other OS.
But also for wm regulars because the "shell" looks so great this time, we almost forgot the engine didn't change. And when smoke comes out from a Traban we think it's no surprise, but when from a Cadillac it's quite shocking.
Raspail said:
Ain't it the toll for winmo? I mean, not really specific to the HD. The amazing library of software, registery tuning and alternative drivers has a price: bugs, crash, freeze.. and we have to put the hands in the engine more than what one may expect. Sometimes testing and fixing is fun, sometimes we would like to simply use the device without being bothered.
It can be disappointing for those coming from other OS.
But also for wm regulars because the "shell" looks so great this time, we almost forgot the engine didn't change. And when smoke comes out from a Traban we think it's no surprise, but when from a Cadillac it's quite shocking.
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No, those polls are for HD specifically.
I know this has been said again and again, but I just have to put my opinion out there..
To realize what provoked this thread see here and a benchmark test on youtube where the evo gets pwnt by the nexus one and droid x on so many levels.
HTC claims that the reason EVERY other android phone can get twice as much frames per second as us is because they don't have an HDMI port..
Did they really think that was gonna fly?
I'd gladly never use my hdmi port to have smooth as butter 60FPS.. and to set the record straight we DO notice the difference.
At the very least they could have imposed the limit only when content is being output via hdmi!
I cannot understand how they thought we'd sit back and allow this.
Android is the home of nerds, enthusiasts, overclockers, benchmarkers and rom chefs.
This isn't the typical iphone userbase, we notice a lack of performance and inefficiency.
Both of which our phones are in no short supply of..
Our tests and kernel tweaks have proved that this DEFECT can be bypassed, so why are they still going on about hardware limitations?
How come our PREMIUM phones that we have to pay an extra 10 bucks per month just to own, can't even catch up to the very first android phone (G1) in terms of 2D FPS?
How come everybody else is capable of 60fps while we with our "revolutionary multimedia phones" can't even churn out anything past 30FPS without tweaks, and hacks, and best of all voiding our warranties.
It's ****ing blasphemy I tell you.
How about a rom that allows for disabling of hdmi?
I don't know just how ingrained it is with the snapdragon CPU or more likely the gpu, but it's surely possible.
I mean how many of us would've gotten these phones if we knew it was either hdmi or 60fps?
Hdmi has nothing to do with the cap.
This belongs here:
forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=699290
topdnbass said:
HTC claims that the reason EVERY other android phone can get twice as much frames per second as us is because they don't have an HDMI port..
Did they really think that was gonna fly?
I'd gladly never use my hdmi port to have smooth as butter 60FPS.. and to set the record straight we DO notice the difference.
At the very least they could have imposed the limit only when content is being output via hdmi! <-That should be a poll option
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Aridon said:
Hdmi has nothing to do with the cap.
This belongs here:
forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=699290
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Click to collapse
HDMI is their excuse isn't it, Droid X has HDMI will it always be limited to 30FPS?
Personally, I'd rather loose battery life and HDMI (never going to use that ****) output for no lag and better performance.
At least give us the option, HTC.
For the most part HDMI out, is a "feature for friends".
I don't think that many of us are ACTUALLY using this often.
I mean it's nice to have and i'm sure it can come into handy one day, but not at this expense!
Hdmi has nothing to do with the cap.
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According to Keith Nowak it has very much to do with hdmi..
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=713677
I have sifted through that convoluted thread.. but see no indication that anything else is causing the cap..
So then? What IS causing it.
topdnbass said:
For the most part HDMI out, is a "feature for friends".
I don't think that many of us are ACTUALLY using this often.
I mean it's nice to have and i'm sure it can come into handy one day, but not at this expense!
According to Keith Nowak it has very much to do with hdmi..
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=713677
I have sifted through that convoluted thread.. but see no indication that anything else is causing the cap..
So then? What IS causing it.
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are you implying i have no friends?
Indeed.
Screw implying.
You straight up got no friends bro!
Sorry, better luck next time.
Sent from my Evo 4G
I don't really understand why I'd use hdmi. This thing isn't pushing out .mkv files is it?
And you better believe I'm not spending extra money on a fancy mini hdmi cord. F that.
Take out the hdmi, give me a freaking Ethernet port instead Haha. Id prolly use that at least once, which will be more than I ever use hdmi.
(Actually come to think of it 4g to wired Ethernet tether for devices that don't support usb tether would be rather slick.)
Now that HTC fixed the grounding issue on the phone with the OTA update, my attention is now completely on the FPS issue. This is really frustrating. I have 5 days left to return my phone and I am really trying to figure out what to do. I don't want to go to Verizon because it's more expensive and I'm still in contract until Oct if I return the Evo. $50 ETF isn't a huge deal though. I've never been an apple fan and have never personally owned an iPhone but when you put the Evo next to Apple's latest, the screen choppiness really shows. It makes me mad. It makes me feel like the Evo is still behind the iPhone (when on paper is was not at all).
Look, I'm not sitting here saying that 30FPS is making my phone crappy and less enjoyable. The thought of getting duped by HTC is what bothers me. HTC sold us something on paper, and delivered something else. Isn't that called bait and switch?
Another problem is that none of the Sprint sales people, HTC customer service reps, or Best Buy/RS employees know enough about FPS to realize what it has done to our "wicked fast" phone. They look at us like we're crazy. I was describing the grounding issue to my local RS sales guy and he was giving me a look like I was being a baby about it.
Even though the 30 fps cap is still there the new update has gotten rid of all the screen lag I've had in sense and the browser.
donatom3 said:
Even though the 30 fps cap is still there the new update has gotten rid of all the screen lag I've had in sense and the browser.
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The motion blur you see when you swipe screens or scroll in the browser is a result of 30FPS. I still have it after the update. Use a nexus one or droid and you'll see the difference. It's very noticeable side-by-side. Sure, I don't see it when I'm using my phone. My brain gets used to it. The problem is that phones that have been out for 12 months have better screen motion than we do with our "wicked fast" phone.
meh at least we don't have to deal with this:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=954054
Wow! Seems pretty widespread... That really sucks. On top of that, they have to deal with the manipulations as Apple tries to dodge the complaints.
Great another post of so me one whining go return the phone, please return your phone and get a box of tampons
BrianDigital said:
Great another post of so me one whining go return the phone, please return your phone and get a box of tampons
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I'll make sure to get you an English 101 book while I'm out shopping.
coolguy949 said:
I'll make sure to get you an English 101 book while I'm out shopping.
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Hardy har, atleast I used one comma hey look htc just released a patch to fix the cap. Soley based off your whiney post
This is a public forum. People complain on it. Get used to it.
ahh fanboys make me smile
Thought this would fit in the development thread. Please move to general if felt needed. http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/09/htc-says-evo-4gs-30fps-cap-on-video-output-cant-be-increased/#comments
"HTC says EVO 4G's 30fps cap on video output can't be increased
By Chris Ziegler posted Jul 9th 2010 5:31PM Even though we've seen evidence of a hack that circumvents it, we've been able to corroborate a story over at AndroidGuys this week that the HTC EVO 4G's 30fps cap on screen output is a terminal condition -- so says HTC, anyhow. The official story is that the cap was necessitated by the phone's support for HDMI-out, and there's no way the company could craft a software update to nix the limitation. Of course, as usual, we have every faith that the xda-developers community is going to magically take care of this in a way that's easy enough for at least power users to install -- but until then, you'll just need to deal with a frame rate that's just barely perceptible to the human eye. We suspect you'll manage."
Not really breaking news IMO, they have been saying that.
I can see where people might get excited by your thread title only to be disappointed tho lol
Rippley05 said:
Not really breaking news IMO, they have been saying that.
I can see where people might get excited by your thread title only to be disappointed tho lol
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Agreed, changed to recent news. Dont want to mislead anyone.
Wrong section....
Well that's a shame.
Guess we won't have their engineers to help us on this one
More work for us..
When we truly fix this cap, we should all get together one day, knock on peter chou's door and hold out our phones running silky smooth gears.
They've been saying that since day one.. Are we seriously getting trolls here or is it just a coincidence that someone feels the need to reiterate this every day?
I'll sit here and enjoy the 46FPS on my novatek panel for now, hopefully at 60FPS soon enough.
I wonder if its possible to fix this issue but break HDMI output?
I mean I could care less about hooking my phone to my TV to watch anything in HD...
Or am I missing something
Housoft said:
They've been saying that since day one.. Are we seriously getting trolls here or is it just a coincidence that someone feels the need to reiterate this every day?
I'll sit here and enjoy the 46FPS on my novatek panel for now, hopefully at 60FPS soon enough.
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Just sharing the most recent news my man. And I dont think HTC ever confirmed this. They claimed to have been "working on it". I figured the devs would like to see what HTC recently said. Move the thread if you have the power to then!!
I've wondered if it could be fixed by killing power to the HDMI-out. Seems like HTC woulda been able to include an HDMI-out toggle and enable 60fps w/ HDMI toggleOFF if that were the case though.
old news and wrong section
Housoft said:
I've wondered if it could be fixed by killing power to the HDMI-out. Seems like HTC woulda been able to include an HDMI-out toggle and enable 60fps w/ HDMI toggleOFF if that were the case though.
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That seems like the logical thing to do. However, you have to remember we're talking about HTC.
On another note, I would love to get rid off the HDMI port to have full 60fps. I know for sure that I'll never ever use that stupid feature in my life from a phone.
jblazea50 said:
That seems like the logical thing to do. However, you have to remember we're talking about HTC.
On another note, I would love to get rid off the HDMI port to have full 60fps. I know for sure that I'll never ever use that stupid feature in my life from a phone.
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If HTC turns out to be right and the screen *must* be limited to 30fps in order to enable HDMI, then it seems to me like the development community has a pretty clear (if difficult) plan in front of them. Once 60fps is figured out, then including a settings-style toggle between 30FPS/HDMI and 60FPS/No HDMI would be the solution. Hell, auto-toggle it when an HDMI cable is plugged in or yanked, too. And if we ever get an always-on HDMI out for the whole interface, that switching system could still work. Well, in theory.
directly from an htc engineer, not some exec who doesnt really know what hes talking about.
there are two interface adapters, one for the lcd and the other for the hdmi port. the lcd uses mddi 1.1 while the rgb is used for hdmi. the mddi 1.1 operates at 30fps and no software update will fix it. changing the refresh rate is all that can be done, and this causes tearing which weve seen. sorry guys, but unless the hardware changes (it wont) were stuck at 30fps. keep in mind, however, that most movies and tv shows are shot at 24fps
hilarious considering there are two threads that bypass the fps cap on both the epson and novatec panels.
Im so sick of hearing "most movies are shot at ... fps". Most movies also have a constant frame rate that doesnt stutter or surge. Not to mention the input lag.
There are times when I am scrolling that I can literally count the frames, that is just unacceptable.
cnstarz said:
hilarious considering there are two threads that bypass the fps cap on both the epson and novatec panels.
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its been done by changing the refresh rate; like the post says its a dirty hack and theyre not sure what is causing the cap. this is whats causing the cap.
kellybrf said:
its been done by changing the refresh rate; like the post says its a dirty hack and theyre not sure what is causing the cap. this is whats causing the cap.
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Sorry to burst your bubble but this has been posted many many times... in the appropriate threads. Hardly any new information. Also, sometimes even HTC engineers don't know what the heck they are talking about.
zeuzinn said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but this has been posted many many times... in the appropriate threads. Hardly any new information. Also, sometimes even HTC engineers don't know what the heck they are talking about.
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Ok, but is the OP right? I don't feel like wading through the other multiple threads. Is the current kernel fix a true fix, or is it a hack that doesn't really get us past the 30fps barrier?
I have a novatec panel and have no tearing. I read that epsons do have tearing tho.
zeuzinn said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but this has been posted many many times... in the appropriate threads. Hardly any new information. Also, sometimes even HTC engineers don't know what the heck they are talking about.
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I have to agree here. I work for a software company in tech support and sometimes I'm clueless about a feature of the software that I have been using for over 5 years. Funny thing is not all the programmers and developers know how to even navigate through the front-end of the software. So just because they are an "engineer" at HTC, don't mean crap to me.
the panels have nothing to do with it, theyre capable of a higher fps its the mddi adapter that is holding it back
and let me rephrase the htc engineer thing...its from an evo engineer who knows all about the phone
This is a dead horse being mercilessly beaten. Some of the kernels hit 50 fps, and really that's all that's needed. It feels absolutely smooth. If it's possible to 'correctly' remove the cap, then I have every confidence in the dev community to break it.
But, creating these threads are not productive, and offer nothing that hasn't been said before. If all we're left with is a dirty hack, I'd be happy.
eagle63 said:
Ok, but is the OP right? I don't feel like wading through the other multiple threads. Is the current kernel fix a true fix, or is it a hack that doesn't really get us past the 30fps barrier?
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Yes the fps is capped at 30 and yes the hack does work for novatec panels. Epson get tearing with the fps hack.
shep211 said:
Epson get tearing with the fps hack.
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Not for long. *evil grin*
eagle63 said:
Ok, but is the OP right? I don't feel like wading through the other multiple threads. Is the current kernel fix a true fix, or is it a hack that doesn't really get us past the 30fps barrier?
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The hack does get us past the 30fps. Before the source was released they got close to 56fps on both Novatek and Epson LCD panels. Now with a new source the most they have been able to get is 40-50fps, but now with working camera and 4G. It's only a matter of time though. And if you know HTC, they are known for saying it's a hardware limitation when it's in fact, software.
The phone has only been on sale for little over a month and look at all the amazing work that has been done. This amazing community's work rivals the speed of light, so I wouldn't worry about it.
I may be misunderstanding what a midi adapter is...but...what I am thinking of has nothing to do with video?
halorin said:
This is a dead horse being mercilessly beaten. Some of the kernels hit 50 fps, and really that's all that's needed. It feels absolutely smooth. If it's possible to 'correctly' remove the cap, then I have every confidence in the dev community to break it.
But, creating these threads are not productive, and offer nothing that hasn't been said before. If all we're left with is a dirty hack, I'd be happy.
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no, this is new information. there is no mention on this forum of mddi or rgb interfaces (i checked...edit, except that i checked the wrong thing ) obviously theyve been able to do some things, but its beating a dead horse to try and remove the cap the correct way because its a hardware limitation. anyway, i put the information out there for the developers who know about these things, not for people to debate on if its right or not. tear down your evo if you want and youll find the parts, do the research and find it to be the case
kellybrf said:
no, this is new information. there is no mention on this forum of midi or rgb interfaces (i checked.)
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It's not. Do more searching and you will find it. Heck, I even got that same information as a reply from HTC customer service more than 20 days ago!
kellybrf said:
no, this is new information. there is no mention on this forum of midi or rgb interfaces (i checked.) obviously theyve been able to do some things, but its beating a dead horse to try and remove the cap the correct way because its a hardware limitation. anyway, i put the information out there for the developers who know about these things, not for people to debate on if its right or not. tear down your evo if you want and youll find the parts, do the research and find it to be the case
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That has been 'known' now for about two weeks, A quick search would have revealed that this 'engineer' hasn't revealed anything that HTC hasn't claimed before
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=6896671&postcount=982
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=6897077&postcount=989
If it was a hardware cap it would be IMPOSSIBLE to have a software "dirty hack" bypass it.... What you are saying is IMPOSSIBLE! We have proven that it is not a hardware cap. It would be helpful since you are a EVO engineer at HTC. To hook us up with the people responsible for the coding of this fps limit. I am not flaming.
sablesurfer said:
I may be misunderstanding what a midi adapter is...but...what I am thinking of has nothing to do with video?
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wow, been a long day. mddi, which explains why midi turned up no results
kellybrf said:
keep in mind, however, that most movies and tv shows are shot at 24fps
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The look of 24p is only considered superior because it's more film-like - which is purely a matter of conditioning on our part. We've become adjusted to an image with limited data and we somehow equate this with quality, as it's nearly analogous to the film experience which was considered greatly superior to video until recent years. (Even when the bulk of televisions default to 3:2 pulldown to display it. Ugh.)
That being said, I'd never use that excuse for a refresh rate on a monitor. I'm sorry, that argument simply doesn't carry any weight with me.
I'm more than happy with my phone and I don't play any games on it, so I'm not too upset if this news does end up being the final word - but the comparison to film and television simply isn't applicable.
Anyway, hasn't anyone ever watched sports in 720p at 60 fields per second and marveled at how smooth the action is?
I tried to benchmark my sony ericsson xperia x10 with FPS2D...
It seems that it limits the speed to 30FPS MAX... it tries to go higher but it keeps getting blocked at 30fps wtf is wrong>?
They locked it down to 32fps ... Nothing can be done until we can cook custom ROMS or SE decide to unlock the cap. Its just like EVO 4G.
I wonder why they felt they had to limit it? I noticed when doing the GLBenchmark1.1 test that it maxed out at 32fps. The N8 is hitting 60fps, why dont SE just allow it to go above 32fps?
Does anyone know why HTC limited the Evo 4G? Could explain why SE did it to.
POLO_i780 said:
I wonder why they felt they had to limit it? I noticed when doing the GLBenchmark1.1 test that it maxed out at 32fps. The N8 is hitting 60fps, why dont SE just allow it to go above 32fps?
Does anyone know why HTC limited the Evo 4G? Could explain why SE did it to.
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HTC removed the 30 fps cap in one of the latest updates, afaik.
Does anyone know if this limit on X10 will be broken with 2.1?
otherwise I'll think I might buy another phone
tuxo87 said:
HTC removed the 30 fps cap in one of the latest updates, afaik.
Does anyone know if this limit on X10 will be broken with 2.1?
otherwise I'll think I might buy another phone
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Why? What difference does it make?
The telephone is much smoother @60fps. dunno if it affects touchscreen responsiveness too (or the way you feel it )
its hard to explain, but if you manage to try an iphone 4 you'll surely notice the difference.
You know, until this thread, I doubt anyone on here even knew/cared about the FPS.
It's nice to see that the Android fanboys haven't disappointed me with their endless pursuit of meaningless higher numbers.
iead1 said:
You know, until this thread, I doubt anyone on here even knew/cared about the FPS.
It's nice to see that the Android fanboys haven't disappointed me with their endless pursuit of meaningless higher numbers.
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umm... can you explain to me what is meaningless about it? is having more horsepower in a car meaningless? is having a larger house meaningless? is having more money meaningless?
yeah i bet you answered no to all those questions, if not then somethings wrong with you.
these numbers that are limited to something less than what the hardware is capable of is stupid. the pursuit of higher performance on a device that is MORE than capable of it (due to the lack of software to support it atm), is something very viable...
as for the android fanboy comment... thats just stupid lol
Did you honestly notice any performance issues before this thread?
If your eye can really tell the difference between 60 and 30 fps, I applaud you.
My point isn't the fact that it's actually locked (I don't care either way), I just find it funny that as soon as an Android fanboy finds out their numbers are lower than someone else's, they freak out.
Its possible that they decided to cap it after finding stability issues at higher frame rates... even then, how does it actually affect anything? I mean, do videos become visibly smoother at higher frame rates? (I honestly don't know, so I'm asking)
And wrt the android fanboy comment - If you don't find android fanboys at xda, where else would you find them
actually i kinda care, coz one of my games, hyper jump i think has a refresh line split straight down the middle and i can't see scrap my when... etc. etc.
but yea i like things to look smooth, what's the fps on the iphone coz it looks so slick
pngface said:
Its possible that they decided to cap it after finding stability issues at higher frame rates... even then, how does it actually affect anything? I mean, do videos become visibly smoother at higher frame rates? (I honestly don't know, so I'm asking)
And wrt the android fanboy comment - If you don't find android fanboys at xda, where else would you find them
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It doesn't affect videos, because the video would have had to be made at the higher FPS to actually benefit. FPS only benefits games, and the goal is always 30 FPS. Higher is nice, but not needed for most games. I would be surprised if iPhone games ran higher.
Maybe I should've wrote "X10 Fanboys" ahaha. Always wanting that 2.2, 16,000,000, 3.0, 512, ect.
pngface said:
Its possible that they decided to cap it after finding stability issues at higher frame rates... even then, how does it actually affect anything? I mean, do videos become visibly smoother at higher frame rates? (I honestly don't know, so I'm asking)
And wrt the android fanboy comment - If you don't find android fanboys at xda, where else would you find them
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Dunno about videos but the android interface would be sensibly smoother. it's like playing a 3d game. is it more playable at 60 or 30 fps?
I seriosly thinks that the FPS cap limits the touchscreen responsiveness too.
tuxo87 said:
Dunno about videos but the android interface would be sensibly smoother. it's like playing a 3d game. is it more playable at 60 or 30 fps?
I seriosly thinks that the FPS cap limits the touchscreen responsiveness too.
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60fps is better only if it doesn't fall from 60 to 20 fps which i think will happen just too often thanks to Adreno 200(while playing 3D games at least)
When playing Asphalt ive noticed skipping/jerking of frames, and im betting thats due to the cap. The Andreno200 seems to be capable of upto 45fps, thats what the Desire is reflecting in the benchmark tests, im sure the extra 13fps will make a significant difference when gaming, i love playing games on my X10's gorgeous 4" display, the phone is so great to hold and play games on, but it sucks when you run into jerkyness here and there due to a dam limit, when the hardware is far more capable.
Um, locking the frame rate results in smoother graphics, not jerky ones.
If you're experiencing jerkiness, then the frame rate never reached the limit when you were using the software. The whole point of locking the frame rate is so things appear smooth at all times.
iead1 said:
It doesn't affect videos, because the video would have had to be made at the higher FPS to actually benefit. FPS only benefits games, and the goal is always 30 FPS. Higher is nice, but not needed for most games. I would be surprised if iPhone games ran higher.
Maybe I should've wrote "X10 Fanboys" ahaha. Always wanting that 2.2, 16,000,000, 3.0, 512, ect.
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Part of the desire comes from other Android handsets already having these features eons ago. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best performance from your phone.
I bought mine because it had the best specs at the time and I was assured that updates would soon follow, not minor updates but major ones.
It seems in all your posts you do nothing but defend the X10 and shoot down everyone who isn't 100% satisfied like you are. I admit that I've been negative in the past but I've forked out more than half a grand for a damn phone, and yes, I did do the research. I thought SE would have killed the Android market with the way they fluffed up their phone and boasted in all their marketing pieces.
why don't you think it the other way around, maybe SE has limited the FPS to save you from a crashing OS, it's a common knowledge that X10 is one of the highest specs phones in the market till today, and it's a common knowledge also that SE has modified the Android 1.6 too much to be able to work on that specs, and in their process to do so they admittedly limited the functionality of the phone maybe to keep the OS working smooth without any flaws till they issue the long delayed Android 2.1 update.
Its a common fallacy, people assume that bigger numbers mean better. That is only true if there is a noticeable difference...
A bigger house is of no use to you if all the extra rooms are locked.
... and there is no extra "cost" or detrimental effect...
A bigger house is great, if it doesn't mean it suddenly costs you more than you can afford.
To address those points, it is generally accepted that the human eye cannot resolve movement at much higher framerates than 28-32 FPS. Any film you have seen at the cinema, and any TV you have watched has been at 24FPS and that certainly has never seemed jerky to me.
So is 60 FPS better? Well no not really, as you cant see the difference. And whilst you may be able to argue you can see the difference between 25 and 35FPS (Note 30FPS sits in the middle ) If you make the claim you can differentiate all the way up to 60, im going to need serious proof.
Its worth noting at this point that a lot of hoohah is often made about framerates, especially in 3d gaming. This is NOT because of the user experience, its because its a good way to compare hardware performance. Past a certain point (around 30fps) it makes little to no difference to the user experience.
Now onto the second part of my awesome house analogy, why bother locking it anyway? Because to produce MORE than 30 FPS, i.e. to go beyond the boundry at which the user can tell a difference, requires more power.
More power means poorer battery performance, amongst other things (although in mobile device design power consumption is a chief concern). The key point here being that it requires extra juice but delivers no increase in user experience. Essentially just chucking power out of the window, to nobodies benefit.
Finally, those people experiencing "lags" in games, that's not due to frame capping. That happens when the frame rate drops BELOW the cap (considerably below) therefore the cap has had no effect.
Finally, a disclaimer, im not blindly defending SE here, i think their software and post sales support leaves a LOT to be desired, but lets ***** and flame about something that deserves it:
Books are for people too poor to buy a TV. Discuss.
bongd said:
Part of the desire comes from other Android handsets already having these features eons ago. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best performance from your phone.
I bought mine because it had the best specs at the time and I was assured that updates would soon follow, not minor updates but major ones.
It seems in all your posts you do nothing but defend the X10 and shoot down everyone who isn't 100% satisfied like you are. I admit that I've been negative in the past but I've forked out more than half a grand for a damn phone, and yes, I did do the research. I thought SE would have killed the Android market with the way they fluffed up their phone and boasted in all their marketing pieces.
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More like I hate stupidity, and most of my posts are defending intelligence. I'm convinced that 75% of this board are high school students living with their parents in their basements, buying phone's with daddy's credit card.
Anyway, the poster above me explained it perfectly.