I guess this is kind of a question for the XDA community at large, since you are considered the "rooting gods" by us mere mortals. That being said... I've had enough experience over the years and I've rooted both WinMo and Android phones, including my Hero (running ic3 right now). What bothers me is the push by some people (on other forums, like the Sprint fan page on Facebook) for anyone and everyone to root their phone because "it's like jailbreaking an iPhone" (which is nonsense, since most people jailbreak iPhones to install apps that Apple refuses to put in the App Store) or "because the carriers don't want you to have access to all your phone's features" (more nonsense). Anyone technical enough knows that rooting is like giving someone permanent root access on a Linux or UNIX system, with the risk of doing serious damage if you don't know what you're doing. So, looking for an opinion here, is it wise for "Joe (or Jill) Average User" to attempt to root their phone?
And, as a second question, once rooted, it's always been my assumption that warranties are voided, you lose Total Equipment Protection, etc., but some (supposedly smart and informed people) say that they are not. Opinions again, please?
mjb5406 said:
I guess this is kind of a question for the XDA community at large, since you are considered the "rooting gods" by us mere mortals. That being said... I've had enough experience over the years and I've rooted both WinMo and Android phones, including my Hero (running ic3 right now). What bothers me is the push by some people (on other forums, like the Sprint fan page on Facebook) for anyone and everyone to root their phone because "it's like jailbreaking an iPhone" (which is nonsense, since most people jailbreak iPhones to install apps that Apple refuses to put in the App Store) or "because the carriers don't want you to have access to all your phone's features" (more nonsense). Anyone technical enough knows that rooting is like giving someone permanent root access on a Linux or UNIX system, with the risk of doing serious damage if you don't know what you're doing. So, looking for an opinion here, is it wise for "Joe (or Jill) Average User" to attempt to root their phone?
And, as a second question, once rooted, it's always been my assumption that warranties are voided, you lose Total Equipment Protection, etc., but some (supposedly smart and informed people) say that they are not. Opinions again, please?
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I think only people who are comfortable rooting should root.
The warranty is null and void if you root the phone.
mjb5406 said:
So, looking for an opinion here, is it wise for "Joe (or Jill) Average User" to attempt to root their phone?
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Is it wise? That depends on the user deciding if he/she should root. Should they be given the same opportunity as someone that's more tech savvy than the average user? Sure, why not. Android encourages users to fully customize there devices, if that means getting one's hand dirty to get the most of your phone, then give it go. However, if the end user is afraid about "bricking" or "voiding" there warranty; then it's probably best they stick with the factory defaults.
At the end of the day; it's the user's choice. Rooting of course allows one to get the maximum potential out of the phone, non-rooting allows for a decent experience. However, it's quite obvious that once someone see's the many wonderful things that comes with rooting; they too are often enticed and decide to take the plunge. Which, ultimately is a good thing; they're able to join a community like XDA, learn new things about there device and about computers/hacking that they thought they never could, and of course, they now get to enjoy the benefits of rooting.
mjb5406 said:
And, as a second question, once rooted, it's always been my assumption that warranties are voided, you lose Total Equipment Protection, etc., but some (supposedly smart and informed people) say that they are not. Opinions again, please?
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The thing is, even Sprint employees root there phones, so at the end of the day, its comes down to the sales/tech person at your local Sprint store. People on here have said that if your phone is broken and you take it in to get it serviced without flashing the Sprint RUU that Sprint will say you've voided your warranty because they can't work with the "modified" phone (e.g. rooted, etc).
However, this is relative from person to person and from store to store. Like I said, pending on the Sprint rep/tech -- they can choose to service your "modified" phone or tell you that you've voided your warranty and that they won't help you. Of course; to remedy this, you just need to go home; flash the latest Sprint RUU and go back to the store -- then they can't complain.
So, if you're worried about voiding your warrenty or that Sprint will freak out, flash the latest RUU before going into your local Sprint store... if you have a good rapport with your Sprint reps/techs, it shouldn't matter if you're phones rooted or not though.
You cannot compare the iphone to the android on a operating system level because android is free under the GPL and by "rooting" the operating system only means that you enabled an option that was otherwise disabled by the source for the end users protection, not because its in any violation of laws like the Iphone.
Rooting the device only opens opportunities for more options on a less limited field rather than being on a more limited field with little options. The iphone is basically like a "Nascar Vehichle" its tagged and ridiculed with many logos and flare, It's commercialized in such a way that not only does jail braking and unlocking violate the companies terms of use but other companies that own the hardware inside the device. My speculation on the sprint fan club is this...
There are three people in the tech field. People who use their equipment,p eople who play with it and people who do both. I do both.. which one are you?
Powers16 said:
You cannot compare the iphone to the android on a operating system level because android is free under the GPL and by "rooting" the operating system only means that you enabled an option that was otherwise disabled by the source for the end users protection, not because its in any violation of laws like the Iphone.
Rooting the device only opens opportunities for more options on a less limited field rather than being on a more limited field with little options. The iphone is basically like a "Nascar Vehichle" its tagged and ridiculed with many logos and flare, It's commercialized in such a way that not only does jail braking and unlocking violate the companies terms of use but other companies that own the hardware inside the device. My speculation on the sprint fan club is this...
There are three people in the tech field. People who use their equipment,p eople who play with it and people who do both. I do both.. which one are you?
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No question... I do both. But, then again, I've been doing this for years. My issue is that it seems like there are two groups of "rooters": Those that do it and understand what they are doing and the risks that are involved and those that do it, tell other people to do it, and really don't understand the ramifications other than to say it's "cool". There has even been a request for someone to post rooting FAQ on the official Sprint page on Facebook (which is very stupid) and lots of talk about people want to root because they want "free tethering" (also very stupid); to talk about this on a Sprint-monitored forum is not a good idea, IMHO, and to tell people to root their phones when all they get is "What's rooting?" as a reply tells me that those people should probably be content just using their phones and, if they run into problems, go to Sprint for assistance. It's usually easy to tell who has a more technical understanding of the phone just by the content of their posts.
mjb5406 said:
No question... I do both. But, then again, I've been doing this for years. My issue is that it seems like there are two groups of "rooters": Those that do it and understand what they are doing and the risks that are involved and those that do it, tell other people to do it, and really don't understand the ramifications other than to say it's "cool". There has even been a request for someone to post rooting FAQ on the official Sprint page on Facebook (which is very stupid) and lots of talk about people want to root because they want "free tethering" (also very stupid); to talk about this on a Sprint-monitored forum is not a good idea, IMHO, and to tell people to root their phones when all they get is "What's rooting?" as a reply tells me that those people should probably be content just using their phones and, if they run into problems, go to Sprint for assistance. It's usually easy to tell who has a more technical understanding of the phone just by the content of their posts.
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This is completely true. There are a LOT of people on here who do things without reading or thinking. I think it was when the Hero dropped in price. Everyone bought it, they started googling it, they found XDA, and started posting left and right. I got my Hero the day it came out, but I didn't root it until January 2010. I was a little hesitant and scared, but I did it.... and I'm glad I did.
Related
When I was on AT&T, the phones were locked down incredibly hard. I had a LG and then a Nokia, and you couldn't even install 3rd party apps unless you did some really funky stuff to them. I knew it wouldn't be any different on Sprint, but why are carriers so hell bent on locking down phones that they sell to consumers?
M O N E Y chars
I explained this to someone else in another thread.
Long story short: If a carrier allows root type access to a phone they legally have to support any changes you make. Which means if you root it and blow it up, they have to support it and give you a refurb. By not allowing root, they eliminate the chance that your average person will screw something up. Secondly they'd have to teach their techs the ins and outs of the OS. Can you imagine calling Sprint and saying, 'I ran rm -r / from an adb shell and now my phone won't boot!'.
Firstly they'd have to know that you just recursively deleted everything in your ext filesystem. Then they'd have to know how to help you get it back. Too much time to attempt to fix it, and I've seen threads similar to that here. Imagine Sprint having to support the stuff you've all seen here. They can't.
It's the iPhone mentality - Lock it down, they don't need anything else other than what we will give them
and if you gave every user on sprint the ability to Wifi Tether, it would grind their network to a crawl.
One reason the carriers might care is tethering which many carriers charge extra for.
But I think the real reason is plain old security. If there was a root exploit then what is stopping an app from infecting phones? People feel that the phone they get is the carriers responsibility. You can't have a virus running around because people will blame the carrier. Also for the same reason what smw6180 said. People screw something up and they will blame the carrier.
So it is the mentality that if anything goes wrong with your phone the carrier is responsible.
Ahh.. I guess that all makes sense. I was looking at it from my perspective where I know (for the most part) what I am doing and can pay attention and read... Since most of us here are in the minority, I can see why they do it.
Yea think about it like this.
All of us who have accidentally perma-bricked our phones because we did something stupid (flashed a gsm radio) and gone into sprint repair centers going I have no idea what happened...well who is paying for our mistakes.
Now do you think the losses they got from just the small group who have done it? No but think about large scale. Give the average uneducated-on-the-topic person who isn't tech savvy and I can see a ton of money blown on phones that have been destroyed.
Just one of the many reasons.
In SE official support thread, I,and several other users, pestered one of SE support staff, asking if they would help us root the phone, to which the answer was no. Another user then asked, will SE actively try to prevent root, to which they also answered "no". What ius the opinion of the board as to whether we can trust them?
supamanc said:
In SE official support thread, I,and several other users, pestered one of SE support staff, asking if they would help us root the phone, to which the answer was no. Another user then asked, will SE actively try to prevent root, to which they also answered "no". What ius the opinion of the board as to whether we can trust them?
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A link to the seconde "no" post ?
Vilam said:
A link to the seconde "no" post ?
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what he said
Vilam said:
A link to the seconde "no" post ?
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I knew I should've bookmarked that response... searching... Man SE forums don't make linking to a specific post that easy. OK, here we are.
http://talk.sonyericsson.com/message/1910#1910
For reference, my question:
saltorio on talk.sonyericsson.com said:
Jeff:
Before we all get up in arms, lets make sure we understand you correctly. By "There are no plans to allow root access on the the Xperia™ X10.", do you mean that SE will actively do what they can to prevent users from achieving root access, or do you simply mean that SE will not put in any efforts to simplify the process for users?
If the latter, I think most of us can understand.
However, if it's the former I think SE is really out-of-touch with the Android community and the concept of an "open" system. Couple such a decision with the mis-information about the X10 that was released by SE itself prior to it's release in regards to multi-touch support, the decision to release the X10 with the already out-dated Android 1.6, and then the decision to offer an upgrade to 2.1 at the end of the year, nearly 6 months after the release of 2.2, and it's looking completely like SE really doesn't care about it's customers.
The X10 hardware is pretty good (though the aforementioned lack of multi-touch is still a bad decision). However, the software requires alot of work. The X10 has been plagued by poor battery performance that appears to be the result of bad coding in the Home app, and Timescape is slow and buggy. The OS (as mentioned) is out-dated, and falling further behind, and SE's commitments to address these issues seem far-sighted and as not being enough.
If SE want's their sales to thrive, they need to address the issues with the X10's software. Since you don't seem to be in any rush to do so, what is the issue with allowing the community to do it for you?
Rumor has it SE has more Android handsets in the works. If you want sales of these devices, you'd better embrace your customers. As no amount of positive reviews (of which those for the X10 were mostly only luke-warm) will save a brand hampered by widespread customer satisfaction published all over the web.
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And Jeff's (from SE) response:
Jeff on talk.sonyericsson.com said:
Hi,
Just a quick reply to say "SE will not put in any efforts to simplify the process for users" is correct.
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The problem I see with SE's position, is that they could easily patch the exploit that the rooters have used, claiming it's a security flaw that required a fix. They then kill the root while being able to claim Jeff wasn't lying as they're looking out for their customer's best interests by fixing security holes.
Has there been EVER a manufacturer that supports root?
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page supprts root
visitador02 said:
Has there been EVER a manufacturer that supports root?
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HTC and Google with their nexus one.
i wouldnt believe anything a cs agent/forum agent says to be honest. Its probably a correct answer as far as he knows for now but unfortunately it wont be anything to do with him whether SE patch it or not.
Its the same with the update. People believing what they twitter. The front end people in these companies are always the last to know whats going on and the first to get asked by their customers.
HunteronX said:
HTC and Google with their nexus one.
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No, it is a Google branded phone. So, Google wants you to play with it.
I haven't seen HTC do it.
visitador02 said:
Has there been EVER a manufacturer that supports root?
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Nokia N900
I wouldn't be too surprised if SE didn't patch the "root hole". The decision to lock the root so securely (as I understand) wasn't so much to curb piracy or to completely lock down the phone, but more as a safety device for the many people who don't have the technical knowledge that we see here on XDA.
SE were getting many phones returned because it was all too easy to brick the phone by attempting to install roms/updates which were either not designed for the device or otherwise having access to the filesystem - it's not quite like the situation with, for example, the PSP; where holes are being patched as they are found with newer firmwares, to try and stem the rampant piracy problem on that platform.
SE have no vested interest in the sale of software on the X10, nor in spending time and resources plugging holes in the security of root on their phones.
I think it's enough for SE that acheiving root is relatively technical, and that not too many users will be trying it - and also those users will probably be quite happy to be trawling forums for a fix rather than sending their device straight off to SE.
This is of course all conjecture - they might chase root holes and close them down on each and every exploit. But I doubt it.
SquidgyB said:
I wouldn't be too surprised if SE didn't patch the "root hole". The decision to lock the root so securely (as I understand) wasn't so much to curb piracy or to completely lock down the phone, but more as a safety device for the many people who don't have the technical knowledge that we see here on XDA.
SE were getting many phones returned because it was all too easy to brick the phone by attempting to install roms/updates which were either not designed for the device or otherwise having access to the filesystem - it's not quite like the situation with, for example, the PSP; where holes are being patched as they are found with newer firmwares, to try and stem the rampant piracy problem on that platform.
SE have no vested interest in the sale of software on the X10, nor in spending time and resources plugging holes in the security of root on their phones.
I think it's enough for SE that acheiving root is relatively technical, and that not too many users will be trying it - and also those users will probably be quite happy to be trawling forums for a fix rather than sending their device straight off to SE.
This is of course all conjecture - they might chase root holes and close them down on each and every exploit. But I doubt it.
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I really want that to be true, and judging from the people I know in the development department of SE's mobile division it sounds like achieving root is almost considered an accolade.
The bit about making it hard to flash unsigned stuff to minimise the risk of people flashing random [email protected] to their phones makes good sense.
I want to start this discussion because I haven't seen it anywhere and I read several Android forums. I love the platform and it's "openess" but it seems that requirements from Google fall just short of making this the best platform ever for handsets.
We are all screaming at Motorola about the signed bl but we aren't focusing enough on the greater issue. The Android license from Google seems to allow this or maybe it is less specific to Google than to some other entity but I don't speak lawyerese so i'm not sure. Anyway, here is what I keep reading from Motorola...
"The use of open source software, such as the Linux kernel or the Android platform, in a consumer device does not require the handset running such software to be open for re-flashing. We comply with the licenses, including GPLv2, for each of the open source packages in our handsets"
My point of discussion is this, why aren't we asking Google what they can do? Why can't Google simply state that "we will not allow our software to be damaged in this way"? Why do they allow Verizon, at&t, Motorola, HTC or anyone else manipulate their software in a way that brings so much resentment? Is it not in Google's best interest to force this platform to remain open? I realize this is a double edged sword because open means people can do what they want, which holds true for companies also but I think that everyone realizes that Google's intent was that this would benefit everyone, not just the companies.
Also, everyone seems to forget that HTC is messing around with trying to lock down the NAND. Just because geniuses get past the protection doesn't mean that HTC isn't trying. If the Droid X is a huge success, even with this restriction in place, then what makes any of you think that the rest will not follow suit?
Because open means that you can do whatever you want with it. There is nothing stopping anyone from using it, modifying it for their own uses, and putting it in any device that would support it. That's why a company can strip down all of Google stuff from it and put Bing if they want to, and Google wouldn't be able to complain. The whole point of open and free software is that you compete by actually being the best at something. You keep Google stuff in Android because well, they work best.
Now, when you put Android in a device you manufacture, you do have the rights to do whatever you want with the device. This seems to be a hardware protection on top of the software ones. You know how DRM'd mp3 stop working? well, it's not much different, except that now there is physical damage.
True, these measures defeat the whole purpose of being open, but what the heck. Being truly open means making a great product, and then not complaining when someone grabs it and beats you with it. You have are always competing to deliver the best product, and that's why open is awesome.
Who was it that said: "I can't agree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
Open goes both ways. The company (Motorola) has every right to lock down the bootloader and prevent others from flashing.
You guys are looking at it as if Motorola did this to prevent people from flashing custom roms. The real reason they did it was to prevent others from stealing their rom and porting it to another phone. If you like the "ninjablur" UI, you need to buy the DroidX.
Ryan Frawley said:
Open goes both ways. The company (Motorola) has every right to lock down the bootloader and prevent others from flashing.
You guys are looking at it as if Motorola did this to prevent people from flashing custom roms. The real reason they did it was to prevent others from stealing their rom and porting it to another phone. If you like the "ninjablur" UI, you need to buy the DroidX.
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Actually, I don't agree. I'm pretty sure one could extract those widgets if you really wanted to. (They "Ain't all that" if you ask me. - And yes, I did buy an X yesterday and love it. Just ain't crazy about those widgets).
I think the real reason this is locked down is to prevent custom ROM/Root access to enable tethering. There are other issues I'm sure, but at the top of the list is to protect that revenue Big Red is trying to generate.
As to Google 'Stopping' the carriers from locking this down, please understand that if the carriers can't protect their revenue streams, they simply won't allow the phones on their network, and that would hinder the growth of the OS in general.
Don't take any of my words as endorsement of VZW/Moto actions. I'll be first in line to flash/root my phone when/if its ever possible. I'm just a realist. VZW wants $20/month for WiFi Tether. They are going to do as much as reasonably possible to keep you from doing that for free.
In a related note, 2.2 Froyo does tethering natively. I expect this to be crippled/disabled when we get our update in a couple of months.
I don't agree with the idea that companies would stop supporting the platform. The Droid has been a cash cow for verizon and it is an open book. Google could easily ask that their platform remain open for all to enjoy.
Beyond that, if Google allows them to gimp their OS then Google has created something entirely for the benefit of companies and not at all for the general population. I don't believe this is true. I think that the changes will start with Android v3.0. Google will start getting more pissy about custom crap especially if it makes their product seem worse and increase the chance that Android will be looked upon negatively.
Despiadado1 said:
I don't agree with the idea that companies would stop supporting the platform. The Droid has been a cash cow for verizon and it is an open book. Google could easily ask that their platform remain open for all to enjoy.
Beyond that, if Google allows them to gimp their OS then Google has created something entirely for the benefit of companies and not at all for the general population. I don't believe this is true. I think that the changes will start with Android v3.0. Google will start getting more pissy about custom crap especially if it makes their product seem worse and increase the chance that Android will be looked upon negatively.
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Its the same problem with windows, the OS gets blamed for what hardware vendors do to it... we see this $400 computers getting compared to Apples $1500+ computers and thats some how proof windows sucks, I never had problems with Vista being slow, but people and there $400 computer did.
The problem with Android, specifically the scrolling smoothness, is the vendors custom Android OS setups...
FtL1776 said:
Its the same problem with windows, the OS gets blamed for what hardware vendors do to it... we see this $400 computers getting compared to Apples $1500+ computers and thats some how proof windows sucks, I never had problems with Vista being slow, but people and there $400 computer did.
The problem with Android, specifically the scrolling smoothness, is the vendors custom Android OS setups...
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To be fair, I think the scrolling smoothness is half crappy hardware and half Android's lack of hardware acceleration.
Mikerrrrrrrr said:
To be fair, I think the scrolling smoothness is half crappy hardware and half Android's lack of hardware acceleration.
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No some custom roms fix those issues because they enable the hardware acceleration, which again shows that Google really should crack down on some of these custom versions of Android on phones.
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
Actually, I don't agree. I'm pretty sure one could extract those widgets if you really wanted to. (They "Ain't all that" if you ask me. - And yes, I did buy an X yesterday and love it. Just ain't crazy about those widgets).
I think the real reason this is locked down is to prevent custom ROM/Root access to enable tethering. There are other issues I'm sure, but at the top of the list is to protect that revenue Big Red is trying to generate.
As to Google 'Stopping' the carriers from locking this down, please understand that if the carriers can't protect their revenue streams, they simply won't allow the phones on their network, and that would hinder the growth of the OS in general.
Don't take any of my words as endorsement of VZW/Moto actions. I'll be first in line to flash/root my phone when/if its ever possible. I'm just a realist. VZW wants $20/month for WiFi Tether. They are going to do as much as reasonably possible to keep you from doing that for free.
In a related note, 2.2 Froyo does tethering natively. I expect this to be crippled/disabled when we get our update in a couple of months.
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Motorola has said so itself. The reason Droid X is locked down is because they don't want people stealing their custom UI. Widgets are only part of this UI. The inability to flash custom roms is merely a consequence of protecting their UI.
FtL1776 said:
No some custom roms fix those issues because they enable the hardware acceleration, which again shows that Google really should crack down on some of these custom versions of Android on phones.
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Ah. Didn't know that.
I read the courts reviewed the ruling of phones being legal to root, but then judged that Tablets were a different story. I heard that with tablets to legally be able to root, you have to contact the manufacturer and get permission per ruling. I know this is bogus to many people, and most of you here I assume wouldnt care either way what the courts rule. So this thread is about the legality of the issue, not really meant for debate. I just want to know if it is considered legal to root the Nexus 7, is it allowed?
Righteous Joe said:
I read the courts reviewed the ruling of phones being legal to root, but then judged that Tablets were a different story. I heard that with tablets to legally be able to root, you have to contact the manufacturer and get permission per ruling. I know this is bogus to many people, and most of you here I assume wouldnt care either way what the courts rule. So this thread is about the legality of the issue, not really meant for debate. I just want to know if it is considered legal to root the Nexus 7, is it allowed?
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Where did you read this? Doesn't sound right to be honest, not sure how rooting a tablet would differ in a legal sense from rooting a phone, they are near enough the same device after all. Ultimately it is your device that you own so you are free to do with it as you wish, its not as if you're rooting will have a major impact on anyone else. Unless you are caught installing pirate apps which would be considered as illegal.
Writing "I read [...]" and then not following up with a source means you completely lack credibility
Maybe you are referring to the decision cited in these sources
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/25/3556740/copyright-dmca-jailbreak-unlock-mod-ruling
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...pyright-protection-systems-for-access-control
Take your time and read these sources
Also take your time to read up on material by senior xda members on the difference between rooting your device and unlocking your bootloader. It basically renders your "illegal to root" statement completely invalid.
Moving back to the Nexus 7, although the ruling is vague as #@!$ when it comes to tablets, your not forcibly breaking open the bootloader; its practically an on/off switch on the N7--Google is not coming after you.
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
Jailbreaking is illegal for iPad.
But unlocking and rooting a Nexus 7 is a whole different story. You don't need a exploit, thus you are not breaking any protection, that is why it is legal.
At least in the EU.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
There is a further distinction that can be drawn. In the case of an Android tablet it is using an OS that is in effect free of any restrictions - so you can "copy the book, change it and publish it, provided you acknowledge the source", contrast this with Microsoft and Apple ......sue,damages etc.
CrazyPeter said:
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
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You are incorrect good sir. The jaillbreaking exemption, which is no longer valid, didn't come about from a legal challenge. It was granted by the Librarian of Congress under the normal review process that takes place every three years. Furthermore, rooting phones for purposes of installing and operating legally obtained software is also exempted.
To address the OP, there's a lot of FUD going around about rooting tablets. The factual reality is that absolutely nothing at all has changed. Rest assured that, contrary to the sensationalism from some, the sky is in no danger of falling.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
If rooting a tablet (tablet computer) is illegal, then why don't we get only user account on windows (Administrator account locked) and when we install Ubuntu, why are we not only provided with our user folder and don't have access to anything else? It's exactly the same. I don't know why Android, as basically another one of oh-so-many Linux distros would be the only one, where you are not aloud to access root folders? Linux is open source, and it is your right to be provided with root access.
And since the purpose of root on Android is not installing cracked apps (you can sideload them with enabling 'outer sources'), I see absolutely no reason, why wouldn't it be legal.
Is editing your BIOS settings on PC legal? Again, I don't see why different rules would apply to desktop then to smaller version of PC (which smartphones pretty much are).
You bought the device, it's yours. Even if you decide to take it to another carrier, you paid them, you accepted the contract, you pay penalty in case you cancel the contract sooner. Just because I bought a car in Germany, doesn't mean it's suddenly illegal to drive it in Slovenia.
iOS is different issue. It's not open source, but again I don't see why jailbreaking would be illegal. Of course, installing cracked apps is different, but that's illegal anywhere.
This kind of garbage bugs be to no end... If I buy product A, then I should be able to do what ever I want to product A how ever I want, in regards to electronics. I bought the device, and no judge is going to tell me I can not unlock/root/etc it.
Just ignore...how many movies/apps have you pirated...?
Most Android OEMs LET us root. No judge can change that, nor the open-source nature of Android as an operating system.
(Most) GNU/Linux distributions do allow us to login as the root user. Rooting an Android device is the same concept as logging on as root on GNU/Linux. It's there, you're welcome to use it, but don't blame us if something goes wrong.
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CrazyPeter said:
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
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How many people that jailbroke their iOS devices have not installed pirated apps? Does anyone _actually_ care about the DMCA?
In other words, you can't stop a hacker.
gnustomp said:
Just ignore...how many movies/apps have you pirated...?
Most Android OEMs LET us root. No judge can change that, nor the open-source nature of Android as an operating system.
(Most) GNU/Linux distributions do allow us to login as the root user. Rooting an Android device is the same concept as logging on as root on GNU/Linux. It's there, you're welcome to use it, but don't blame us if something goes wrong.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
How many people that jailbroke their iOS devices have not installed pirated apps? Does anyone _actually_ care about the DMCA?
In other words, you can't stop a hacker.
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You know what, comments like you piss me off. I have downloaded my fair share of music, but when it comes to apps I will not pirate them. These developers work their asses off to make a decent app and then put a .99 price tag on them, and you claim that that is too damn expecive? You aren't a hacker, your just a jerk. I have bought over 150 apps on the play store, and I will continue to support the developers that work oh so hard for so little.
Good day sir.
AFAinHD said:
You know what, comments like you piss me off. I have downloaded my fair share of music, but when it comes to apps I will not pirate them. These developers work their asses off to make a decent app and then put a .99 price tag on them, and you claim that that is too damn expecive? You aren't a hacker, your just a jerk. I have bought over 150 apps on the play store, and I will continue to support the developers that work oh so hard for so little.
Good day sir.
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No offense, but the overly white knight attitude is just as bad as the pirate attitude.
when google comes after me for supporting their os with a law suit for changing my devices gui via root would be the end of days. So, yeah won't happen. sony and microsoft just ban people and their mac ip on their console i'd assume if they ever did do anything, they could ban you from market?
I Am Marino said:
No offense, but the overly white knight attitude is just as bad as the pirate attitude.
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Im not trying to be a white knight, I don't care about pirating music and movies, because they are overpriced as hell, but app developers work very hard for something that they put a .99 cent price tag on. There is no reason why you should not support them.
AFAinHD said:
There is no reason why you should not support them.
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Well I see at least one reason, (which of course is valid only to some apps, not all of them), and that is usualy true to big games only:
- how long have you today to request reffunds for apps you do not like / want / can not use? 15 minutes? or is it even shorter time now? (I do not know how it is now, sorry, I only use free/ad-supported apps now)
- how long does it takes for you to download 2GB of app data? For me it is definitly a LOT longer time that 15 minutes...
- which one of these (above mentioned) apps offer some kind of trial or limited demo or something? How can you try such apps to find out whether you like it or not ?
Can you see the reason for why not to support such apps? Or at least in the first place? Of coure that it is better (for many reasons) to buy the app in the end if you like it. But you can not tell that if you can not evaluate it.
And you are wrong that these apps cost lest than $1 and thus are cheap (or at least I understand that this was something you were triing to say), most of such apps cost $5-$15, and that can be realy a lot of money if you are not from US, just because you earn $15 per hour does not mean everyone does, there are countries where people works whole day or even week for $15.
Oh, and just to be clear: I do not thing that pirating software is good thing, but sometimes it is the only way how to evaluate something. And you should be allowed do do that, right? Or would you buy a car without (at least) triing to sit in it?
All right, all right, we can just preted that the apps (or game or music or anything) which looks like we want (or need) it does not exists, but to be honest: Can you realy do that? Especially when there is no similar replacement? Or would you just happily pay any price the DEV asks, hoping that it will be usefull to you?
And one more thing:
Lot of people here is stating that court or local law or anyone forbids/encourages something - well this kind of information is totally useless if you forget to tell us in which country/region is that true.
And just to prove my point: there is a country that legaly allows downloading of audio files. Also there is a coutry that allows legaly to use pirated Operating system (namely that was true for Windows XP, not sure if they extended that somehow). Is that information usefull to you? I do not think so, unless you live there and in that case, you should already now...
..
I don't mean to derail the thread but since it's been brought up I wanted to address this quickly.
AFAinHD said:
Im not trying to be a white knight, I don't care about pirating music and movies, because they are overpriced as hell, but app developers work very hard for something that they put a .99 cent price tag on. There is no reason why you should not support them.
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I'm going to try to do this without any self promotion.
It's funny that you say that. As a musician and songwriter who sells tracks at $.99 a piece (and have spent more money on recording equipment and music distribution to never break even), I beg to differ, and I don't have a band helping me out. I put out my albums for the cost of total tracks or maybe a dollar less for that "added value" feeling. Or I let people pay whatever they want thanks to my official online store giving me the ability to set that.
I'm not trying to start an argument or fight, but I just want to enlighten you on this point. Whether it's music or app development, creativity and hard thinking and writing\coding is involved. In both processes there is a lot of trial and error, time and money spent. The pricing of an app or a music track seems to be dependent on the value to the people as seen by the authors. Music seems more standardized whereas different apps will have different prices depending on what they do. But that does not mean there was any less effort or creativity put into music or films than an app. To offset the pirating a lot of musicians at least ask to recommend to friends in hopes that someone buys our tracks to help offset the cost of what we had to pay to put the music out there in the first place.
In the days of filesharing about 8 or so years ago I had downloaded some music. Those programs got old and died, and since then I have only bought CDs or used legal streaming services, typically from those artists I used to download music from. Now that my music is for sale in places I understand the arguments both in favor of free sharing and against it. There's a solution to both.
In either case, in the end we all just want to make even a little money for our creations. I don't think it's logical to suggest that music is overpriced because doesn't take as much effort as app development.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
This i totally agree with .This can stand for anything rather its music apps or even a drawing of a home done in Cad or even a book.. Think if you spend 2 years writing a Book. Then two days after its released you see it on a pirated site when its being retailed for 13.00 .While you have 2 years worth of bills piled up unpaid.Hoping the book sales. App developers often go thru this same thing. I like most everyone else did download some music in the past.NO longer would I do so . Never software and never reading material. Now if its not legal its not coming in our home or on my devices..If its to expensive the author or developer did not want to sell it.
Bottom line is support the people who Create the things that make your life enjoyable and easier to live. They wanna make ends meet to.. But its not really about the money its about what is right and wrong..
sgtpepper64 said:
I don't mean to derail the thread but since it's been brought up I wanted to address this quickly.
I'm going to try to do this without any self promotion.
It's funny that you say that, as a musician and songwriter who sells tracks at $.99 a piece (and have spent more money on recording equipment and music distribution to never break even), I beg to differ, and I don't have a band helping me out. I put out my albums for the cost of total tracks or maybe a dollar less for that "added value" feeling. Or I let people pay whatever they want thanks to my official online store giving me the ability to set that.
I'm not trying to start an argument or fight, but I just want to enlighten you on this point. Whether it's music or app development, creativity and hard thinking and writing\coding is involved. In both processes there is a lot of trial and error, time and money spent. The pricing of an app or a music track seems to be dependent on the value to the people as seen by the authors. Music seems more standardized whereas different apps will have different prices depending on what they do. But that does not mean there was any less effort or creativity put into music or films than an app. To offset the pirating a lot of musicians at least ask to recommend to friends in hopes that someone buys our tracks to help offset the cost of what we had to pay to put the music out there in the first place.
In the days of filesharing about 8 or so years ago I had downloaded some music. Those programs got old and died, and since then I have only bought CDs or used legal streaming services, typically from those artists I used to download music from. Now that my music is for sale in places I understand the arguments both in favor of free sharing and against it. There's a solution to both.
In either case, in the end we all just want to make even a little money for our creations. I don't think it's logical to suggest that music is overpriced because doesn't take as much effort as app development.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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Read here.... http://www.wpcentral.com/mercenary-hackers-hackingteam-claim-full-control-over-windows-phone. Not sure how to feel about this??? If true then there's definately hope for unlocking more WP8 handsets yet at the same time with all the NSA crap going on and concerns about privacy and security...WTF??? Reading around various forums and sites I am actually surprised how many people are NOT interested in unlocking their devices naming security as their number one reason for switching to the WP8 platform. In all the time I've spent here on the forums, with the exception of a few shady posts by no one of any consequence, I have never seen any maliciousness in the the search for exploits and attempts to unlock devices. If anything it almost seems like a game between devs and MS/OEMS and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if some of the devs here were offered opportunities by those same entities; if not then our gain, MS's loss. However this article got me thinking about the possibilities and implications of any exploits or unlocks found and just wondering what others thought... As for my mindset....I paid for my device with hard earned cash therefore it should be mine to F up as I see fit and I will deal with the consequences like a big boy.
Microsoft buying Apple is much more plausible that what is in there.
Part of having a secret surveillance plan is to actually keep the plan secret.
I doubt the group "responsible" for this would post their achievements on the internet, provided they are supported by the government.
tonbonz said:
Read here.... http://www.wpcentral.com/mercenary-hackers-hackingteam-claim-full-control-over-windows-phone. ... As for my mindset....I paid for my device with hard earned cash therefore it should be mine to F up as I see fit and I will deal with the consequences like a big boy.
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You and folk like you are in the insignificant minority of the population
There are far to many people that will quite happily blame MS / OEMs / Networks for any and all problems regardless of who actually broke it.
The other thing is said networks / OEMs don't want you arsing about with their phone, for example, ATT take great pride in being able to charge you for a service that is free, if the phone was unlocked that would stop and ATT would be out of pocket. They pull out of WP arena and rollocks your fathers uncle, MS loses market share.
it sucks, but such is life, now that MS has locked down the market place with from what I can tell is completely impervious to abuse, I doubt very much they could give a $h!t what you do to the platform and if you can unlock it, they do however care about market share which is where the networks come in...
Oh, that's pretty plausible, actually. Even if you assume it's for every device on every version of the OS, I'd still be willing to believe it. Microsoft has done well on security with WP8, hardening the OS (NT in general) over the last decade or so to remove vulns, and using pretty good sandboxing of WP8 apps to minimize attack surface. With that said, there are still items being found, and patched (at least on the PC), regularly in Windows. Some of those vulnerabilities will be present and reachable on WP8 as well, and given how slowly phone updates roll out, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a known but un-patched issue being exploited. For that matter, it could be a true zero-day - something Microsoft is completely unaware of, at least when the exploit was first used - although I think that's less likely.
dazza9075 said:
You and folk like you are in the insignificant minority of the population
There are far to many people that will quite happily blame MS / OEMs / Networks for any and all problems regardless of who actually broke it.
The other thing is said networks / OEMs don't want you arsing about with their phone, for example, ATT take great pride in being able to charge you for a service that is free, if the phone was unlocked that would stop and ATT would be out of pocket. They pull out of WP arena and rollocks your fathers uncle, MS loses market share.
it sucks, but such is life, now that MS has locked down the market place with from what I can tell is completely impervious to abuse, I doubt very much they could give a $h!t what you do to the platform and if you can unlock it, they do however care about market share which is where the networks come in...
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I'm used to being the minority, in a world full of sheep I'd much rather be a wolf, but insignificant? Harsh... Of course the security of the platform is probably the biggest selling point MS had to offer the networks and with perfect timing. I'm sure it's helped increase market shares when everyone's worried about keeping their data secure. As for the marketplace, I am constantly amazed at the apps being created but use very few myself. My kid spends more time on my Lumia than I do; using the Kid's Room feature to play games. Another brilliant "security" feature and one of the first features I point out to any parent asking about the platform. Anyways, knowing the work done here and intentions behind it, seeing that some group possibly gained full access to the platform simply for the purpose of "spying" for anyone that can pay their fees kinda p***ed me off and wondered what others thoughts were...
"Mercenary hackers claim full control over Windows Phone"
and my grandpa told me he had sex with Lili Marleen... but who know... maybe has maybe not
tonbonz said:
I'm used to being the minority, in a world full of sheep I'd much rather be a wolf, but insignificant? Harsh... Of course the security of the platform is probably the biggest selling point MS had to offer the networks and with perfect timing. I'm sure it's helped increase market shares when everyone's worried about keeping their data secure. As for the marketplace, I am constantly amazed at the apps being created but use very few myself. My kid spends more time on my Lumia than I do; using the Kid's Room feature to play games. Another brilliant "security" feature and one of the first features I point out to any parent asking about the platform. Anyways, knowing the work done here and intentions behind it, seeing that some group possibly gained full access to the platform simply for the purpose of "spying" for anyone that can pay their fees kinda p***ed me off and wondered what others thoughts were...
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aye, we are significant in our world but there are a lot more numpties out there then there are of us
GoodDayToDie said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a known but un-patched issue being exploited..
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I totally agree with you but until I see something concrete these are only words...or like I can say in Italian:
fatti, non pugnette!:laugh: (facts, no word please)
Oh, to be sure. Still, it actually gives me a little hope for finding a universal "jailbreak" hack... although I'd prefer one that isn't remotely exploitable.