Database Users

Paid Apps the main problem with Android

I am not a developer, but I was reading up on experiences that developers have with the Android Market.
Then I also came across a website that showed some statistics about paid apps and they were shocking. I can't remember the source right now, but it said that the Apple AppStore is a $200 million business per month, where the Android Market is only $5 millions per month. This is very discouraging for developers who are in it for money (usually companies who have the resources to create Games and more Complex Apps and have the ability to Partner with Services).
One developers said that he only got 23 downloads, in the first month. He mentioned then that over half of them used the 24 hour refund (could that be that those were leachers who downloaded the app and threw it on a P2P channel?), eventually he ended up with 11 sales. One guy sent him an email and said that $4.99 is too much to ask for, which I think is not unreasonable considering that there are many apps in the Apple AppStore that cost much more than that. Whether or not his app is useful or not to most users is sadly unknown by me. But looking at his perspective I think I would start developing apps for the iOS, who wouldn't that wants to make money?
The problem with these figures is that developers will eventually stop developing paid apps and the quality of the Android Market (from now on referred to Market) apps vs Apple AppStore (from now on referred to AppStore) apps will extremely decline. And there will be either many low rating apps in the Market or there will be an increase in the amount of Apps submitted the the Market.
We all want good Apps, Apple found out Apps are the number 1 reason a Plattform has success. Android has Google behind it which makes up for a good amount of Great apps and there are very good developers here that are not in it for the money, but eventually it all comes down to making money when it comes to professional businesses offering a product. Look at the games that are offered on the iOS platform vs Android, you can't tell me that an iPhone 3G or a 2nd Gen iPod has better graphics performance than some of the higher-end Android devices.
Also, are there too many free alternatives in the Android Market that the AppStore doesn't have? There are also many free apps in the AppStore.
What can be done about this? - Please post your ideas, since I am not a developer I am not the pro here when it comes to this issue I am asking for your opinion.
However, I am a business student so I have some insights of how companies will react to this as mentioned above.
The few ideas I have would be:
1. Google could increase the quality of design of the API and give different APIs to paid vs free Apps.
2. Sadly I have to mention it because of all the Leachers and then P2P distributors, remove the 24 hour refund policy.
3. Google to hire more developers in house who are paid and create free apps that can compete with the AppStore (which would cost Google a fortune). Maybe then charge a small amount for Google Voice to do some financial damage report.
4. Change the Markets way how people pay for apps? I noticed that in the past on my iPhone the decision to actually PAY for an app was much easier and faster for me, I didn't even bother to look for a free alternative.
5. Try to Market Android more towards people who are less geeks (who know where and how to find a free solution to the app they need), as in change the look of Android and make it much more simple for the average Joe day to day user (which I would hate because that means remove or hide many of the great features that make Android what I like so much about it and go back to a more primitive system like the iOS4). And tell hardware manufacturers to create more shiny phones.
--> Since most people who don't know how to get free alternatives, or who don't know and don't have the time to learn how to find free alternatives are people that are buying a product for the lifestyle and to show off (iPhone).
What are YOUR ideas to fix this issue? - Thank you for everyone posting solutions.

I don't think this is something we should worry about.
First, Android is open-source and many enthusiasts give their applications free of charge, which is not the case with Apple's closed OS. That is why about 65% of all apps in Market are free, and only 35% paid. In Appstore, about 70% are paid, only 30% free. Statistics: http://androidheadlines.com/2010/09/app-store-vs-android-market-how-much-is-paid-for.html.
Secondly, you'll find that Market currently supports purchases in only 13 markets while the App Store does so in 90. These numbers will change as time passes by and more markets will be included, but I'm sure that Android will always be a platform with much more free apps than iOS, and that's the beauty of Android.

As far as I'm aware the developers have a say regarding that 24 hour refund policy. An application can be made to be non-refundable if they choose to.

In comparing developers for iOS and Android, you have to also look at who they are individually. Sure, there are many apps developed across the board for all mobile devices, but I think the core of the Android Market are individuals who develop apps just for the sake of developing apps. They enjoy what they do and they would do it regardless of profit.
Of course you have a few that try to make money, but I believe they are the exception rather than the rule.
I mean no offense when I say this, but I believe that the iPhone attracts a very different type of user than Android does. Most people I personally know that use the iPhone do so more out of status and pretentiousness than its own usefulness. Many do not even know the majority of things they could do with the iPhone. Those I know who use Android use it because they root it and do their own modifications, overclocking, etc.
With this in mind, I believe that Android apps are generally created by a different kind of developer for a different kind of user.

shinji257 said:
As far as I'm aware the developers have a say regarding that 24 hour refund policy. An application can be made to be non-refundable if they choose to.
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We have absolutely no say in whether or not out apps are refunded. If I showed you the numbers of instant refunds you'd puke. And the OP states $200 million to $5 million which is ridiculously off. I believe Google just reported that they passed $1 billion in sales (profit) from the Android Market. Either way, it's way more than $5 million a month.
All that said I personally am happy with what I have been able to do with the Market. I expected a little better on my most recent app but it takes time for people to get word of a new app. That's pretty much the problem I've found. It's hard to get noticed. But I still think it's pretty good. There is a lot I absolutely hate about the Market and a bunch of things I like about it. I'd still rather develop for Android and ironically, none of the apps I have created would even work on iPhone. Two are root apps and one requires a modification of the browser which is not allowed on iPhone (for no apparent good reason, I might add).

I am glad to hear that this isn't as big of an issue as I read online, it would be sad to see a great plattform to be hurten, as you can see with the WebOS.
As for not getting recognized, a few tips I have about that is not to rely too much on people finding your app in the market, but rather advertise it yourself, use your facebook and twitter and even this forum (if the forum policy allow that, I am not sure on that again since I am not a developer). I love the QR codes, I actually see many of them in bathroom stalls and other places, and I always check on them since it's in my curiosity to find out where they get me.

I'm making an extra living off paid apps on the Marketplace.
Oh, and an extra living off free apps with Admob.
So now I'm making 3 livings worth. It's wonderful. I have no complaints.
I mean no offense when I say this, but I believe that the iPhone attracts a very different type of user than Android does. Most people I personally know that use the iPhone do so more out of status and pretentiousness than its own usefulness. Many do not even know the majority of things they could do with the iPhone. Those I know who use Android use it because they root it and do their own modifications, overclocking, etc.
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You're forgetting about Droid users. You'd be surprised how many people own an Android just for status and pretentiousness. It goes both ways. I even know a few people with Androids that don't even know that they have an Android.

1. Google could increase the quality of design of the API and give different APIs to paid vs free Apps.
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Wouldn't that mean closing the source? Or you think people will use opensource platform that only runs free apps over opensource platform that runs both?
I don't think I want closed source OS on my phone, if I did I'd probably use iPhone.
2. Sadly I have to mention it because of all the Leachers and then P2P distributors, remove the 24 hour refund policy.
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Pirates do buy software sometimes, how do you think it gets to P2P networks in the first place? One of them buys it, his friend cracks it and everyone else gets it 4free.
So it wouldn't solve anything, removing the refund would only make legit customers angry if the app doesn't work.
3. Google to hire more developers in house who are paid and create free apps that can compete with the AppStore (which would cost Google a fortune). Maybe then charge a small amount for Google Voice to do some financial damage report.
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I thought google did hire developers and they do create free apps. I don't think competing with appstore is their ultimate goal though, since appstore and iphoneos are completely closed.
Charging for services is something I agree with completely.
They should indeed make certain (not all) services cost money. But they should also keep the software free and open to ensure the quality.
4. Change the Markets way how people pay for apps? I noticed that in the past on my iPhone the decision to actually PAY for an app was much easier and faster for me, I didn't even bother to look for a free alternative.
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It was much easier and faster because apple paid someone to make it easier and faster.
I'm not so sure google is willing to invest money into closed source software, especially when you consider these 3 facts.
1. Closed source software has a limited amount of developers who are working to make it better, faster and more efficient.
2. More developers on a single project means more features, more bugfixes and faster development.
3. Opensource software in general is more secure because everyone can see the source code.
5. Try to Market Android more towards people who are less geeks (who know where and how to find a free solution to the app they need), as in change the look of Android and make it much more simple for the average Joe day to day user (which I would hate because that means remove or hide many of the great features that make Android what I like so much about it and go back to a more primitive system like the iOS4). And tell hardware manufacturers to create more shiny phones.
--> Since most people who don't know how to get free alternatives, or who don't know and don't have the time to learn how to find free alternatives are people that are buying a product for the lifestyle and to show off (iPhone).
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As I don't like being labeled, I think marketing should be focused on pushing Android for everyone, not just specific groups of people.
User knows what works best for him so let him decide what to buy. Wide selection of devices that share the base operating system is great, but user should decide what type of software he wants to use, not google nor apple.
User should also decide what type of service he wants to use and whether that service is free or paid.
Changing the look of Android to make it more simple is something I'd personally hate, but we should always have options.
It would be great to flash an extremely simple android OS for my grandmother's phone for example, while keeping my VNC and SSH on my own device.
Also, don't think there's much difference between android users and iphone users, they're just people anyway. And there's an equal amount of pirated iphone apps and android apps.
Only real difference is about the OS, where one offers you a choice and another forces you to pay and develops restrictions instead of new features.
What are YOUR ideas to fix this issue? - Thank you for everyone posting solutions.
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I don't think there is an issue, devs get paid from pushing ads, users are happy with a wide selection of apps. Some services are free some services cost money. Just my 2c

Lets support Android developers!!

Hey Xoomers!! We all know this, but its worth repeating...some developers are now showing interest in Android/honeycomb tablets...but in order to keep that support, and to get Ipad quality games and developers on board, we must SUPPORT these developers by actually buying their games and apps and stop the bootlegging!! I know it can be tempting, but why would developers want to Support Android if we are not paying..they would just continue to support Apple..and we will be left with powerful devices with no great games or apps to show for it...Lets show Apple that Android is the new king of the block!!!

Agree with you lets unleash the beast off this tegra
sent from my Motorola XOOM

I want Square Enix on board. I've gotta play Chaos Rings, Final Fantasy 1,2 and 3 on my iPhone... Chaos Rings was a pretty neat mobile RPG.

i just purchased The History great battles medieval, which i have to say looks pretty ugly lol!! But still I dont mind spending the $6.00 bucks, i might like it later But the more support we actually show, the more developers will jump on board, and create better looking games for Tegra. I would love to play resident evil Zombies, need for Speed hot pursuit on our amazing Xoom devices, but its up to us to show that its worth making games for Android. So if we can spend $5.00 on things we don't need, surely we can spend the money to help benefit us as Xoom owners in the long run!!

MRCANNADY said:
Hey Xoomers!! We all know this, but its worth repeating...some developers are now showing interest in Android/honeycomb tablets...but in order to keep that support, and to get Ipad quality games and developers on board, we must SUPPORT these developers by actually buying their games and apps and stop the bootlegging!! I know it can be tempting, but why would developers want to Support Android if we are not paying..they would just continue to support Apple..and we will be left with powerful devices with no great games or apps to show for it...Lets show Apple that Android is the new king of the block!!!
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I've always paid for my apps. Any lack of developer interest because of bootlegging isn't in any way because of me. Its worth noting that even having to post this speaks volumes of the mindset of "general android users" and gives ios devs that much more fuel.

cwizardtx said:
I've always paid for my apps. Any lack of developer interest because of bootlegging isn't in any way because of me. Its worth noting that even having to post this speaks volumes of the mindset of "general android users" and gives ios devs that much more fuel.
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i disagree with your statement..regardless if i posted this or not, developers have already mentioned the fact that bootlegging is a problem with Android owners in general. We have to show developers that we are serious about supporting them. So it's good to show that we are committed to buying apps/games, and that developers will be rewarded for taking the time to develop for us. if we acknowledge the problem and speak about about it, hopefully that will get people on board if they want the better-quality games for Android!

Apple has alot of bootlegging. its just as easy to get a paid app for free on ios devices, as it is on android. I think apple devices have more apps because their is more people to use the product. And devs only have to make it for th Device iPhone Ipad ect. But with anroid you have a little harder time because everything has the android os on it samsung HTC motorola ect.

Ask an ios developer who also produces a like android app which generates more revenue and which gets stolen more.

This is the same argument software developers have had literally for decades. I used to be a producer at a major gaming company and we always claimed that pirating cost us millions of dollars a year. The fact is that it is completely unprovable that there is any loss of revenue at all. If you make an absolutely awesome state-of-the-art game with absolutely unbreakable copy protection you will sell x number of units. If you sell the same game with no copy protection you will still sell x number of units but a bunch of people who didn't pay for it will get it as well because its easy to copy. So regardless, you still make the same amount of money, but you spent a lot more on the DRM licenses so you actually made less profit in the end.
With Android, the number of people who root their device and install pirated apk's is a hugely insignificant number to the overall Android user base, most estimates put it so low that it isnt even trackable. If you choose to not develop for a platform because of pirating, you are throwing money away.

I second the notion of supporting devs, but priacy isn't the primary problem. The biggest problem is market share and time on market. As both of those increase, they will no longer be an issue. This said, it wouldn't hurt to try and cut down priacy and maybe for a free app with a donation option somewhere, use it if its a good app. (Not always obviously, but sometimes is a great start.)
Sent from my Xoom the way it should be, rooted and with SD card.

Appealing to people's better nature is about the same as asking for donations. You aren't gonna get too far.
I think the best anti-piracy approach isn't DRM, but to convert it to a service. You can't pirate a MMOG. Not all software can be tailored to this, but most can, especially in this age of 24x7 connectivity. Software is heading in this direction already, with SaS and of course Da Klowd.
The tough cookie is how to extend the SaS model to media, viz movies and music, given their fundamentally "offline" nature of consumption.
Perhaps the way forward for the movie/music industry is to wrap them in software, eg make them interactive. Say, a piece of music can be played at varying tempo of your choosing, or it can be auto-remixed using templates, or it can be sweetened depending on your mood, etc.
Interactive movie is a tougher row to hoe, since movie watching is mainly a linear experience. But once animation gets to the point of achieving photo-realism, then a movie can conceivably be constructed like a game.
A major weakness of games thus far is lack of pathos. It's hard to be scared, or feel sad or joy, when playing a computer game, as opposed to watching a good movie. Perhaps a movie-game hybrid, with real human actors in intermixed sequences, will achieve this.

I disagree with you. The post by the OP is something like "encouragement" to give MORE SUPPORT to Android developer.
1. To talk more about Android apps to friends and family
2. To contact particular apps developer to create Honeycomb version of their Android apps
3. To contact iOS developers to port their product to Android Honeycomb
4. To create great detailed reviews of Android Honeycomb apps / games and spread the word
cwizardtx said:
I've always paid for my apps. Any lack of developer interest because of bootlegging isn't in any way because of me. Its worth noting that even having to post this speaks volumes of the mindset of "general android users" and gives ios devs that much more fuel.
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Agree ...
The thing is for people who do not want to buy, they will not buy anyway.
This kind of thing is mentality. No matter what, they will always find away to pirate.
What I always do here at my work is to promote and specifically tell all my friends about Android apps and why they should not pirate them (some of them do pirating).
Come on, the price is not expensive! Really not expensive! I cannot believe people risking their phone by installing illegal version for something worth like $1 or $2.
However, I would love to have options to PERMANENTLY REMOVE / DELETE certain apps from my Google Checkout account!
Yes, not all apps are good ... Sometimes, I regret that I bought "that" app. And now, it is listed in my Google Checkout account
I could do some kind of "donation" by buying "any" good apps or ported apps from iOS, once a month for example I will do this to give support to Android devs. But yeah, I don't do this now because I hate to have long list in my Android Market purchased apps list.
KerryG said:
This is the same argument software developers have had literally for decades. I used to be a producer at a major gaming company and we always claimed that pirating cost us millions of dollars a year. The fact is that it is completely unprovable that there is any loss of revenue at all. If you make an absolutely awesome state-of-the-art game with absolutely unbreakable copy protection you will sell x number of units. If you sell the same game with no copy protection you will still sell x number of units but a bunch of people who didn't pay for it will get it as well because its easy to copy. So regardless, you still make the same amount of money, but you spent a lot more on the DRM licenses so you actually made less profit in the end.
With Android, the number of people who root their device and install pirated apk's is a hugely insignificant number to the overall Android user base, most estimates put it so low that it isnt even trackable. If you choose to not develop for a platform because of pirating, you are throwing money away.
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Thank you guys for understanding my post. I think Android wants Honeycomb to be more *centralized* like Apple..meaning that developers won't have to worry about making different versions of apps n games since most tabs running honeycomb will have the same base specs. We need let devs know that we are serious about supporting them...The Android family will or has already outgrown Apples fan base..so developers can make money from us but they need to know that most of us will buy their products. You never know who's reading these forums.

I have no idea whether there is a lot or a little piracy on android phones. Unfortunately there will always be a segment of any group willing to justify stealing products or information. Some groups worse than others. My guess that at least on this forum people understand what goes into making an app and respect that. Now being in the video game industry I can attest to piracy especially on the pc. It gets to the point where its almost pointless to produce a variant of a console game on pc. If the drm is too restrictive you get blasted all over th internet. If you don't put a really restrictive drm on them every pc owner wil have bit torrented your game. Very frustrating.
In any case, that does not seem to be the case with android. I think the best formula is to provide a free version to test with limited functionality and sell a full version so the people who want all of the features can get them and support the app devs. Such as docs to go. So long as the programs stay relatively cheaper there not be much incentive pirate.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App

>My guess that at least on this forum people understand what goes into making an app and respect that.
In that most here have bought a $600-800 gadget, we can say that the demog for this forum have higher disposable income than the norm. Another thing we can say is that some number here are content producers or business owners, so there is more empathy for app devs. In short, those here aren't mainstream people.
I don't think the economics of software pricing will suddenly be lowered to the <$10 variety (as dominated by current phone apps) for the simple reason that software devs haven't decided to work for less money. IOW, TCO will be the same, because cost of production is still the same. The different thing is that the distribution channel now is more democratized, and there'll be more software as services than as packaged e-goods.
The issues of piracy are well-known; no need to rehash them here. Suffice it to say that it will be the same for tabs as it is for PCs.

Part of the problem with our Open Ecosystem is the crowd that it has attracted.
These people who love and kill for 'Open' have had access and use of FOSS(Free Open Source Software) for years - everything just about has been about FOSS.
It's difficult to retrain the mindset of these guys to pay for any software. I am not saying anyone is stealing, I am saying they don't see the current sets of software worthy of $0.99 - the cost is not the factor here, the mind set of FOSS is.
That being said the 'Free' in 'Free Open Source Software' does not mean free from $$$ - it just usually happens to be that way with most software used on an open Linux platform.
That being said, I have purchased every app that I have tried, liked, and a pay version has been available for - there are 10 or so that I don't even have installed any more because I just don't use them (programs designed for 1.5, 1.6, or 2.1 - that don't need to be used any more because features exist).
I get the 'Support Future Development' theory, and would gather to say that most of who do Pirate software really don't understand how a development cycle works, or how you make it profitable. I'd almost bet that 40% of the windows copies that hit this web page a day aren't legit. I'd also say that number is safe and low.
If you want a Free OS - take a bit of time and learn linux (Mint is as easy and Windows) - don't steal from that mean multi billion dollar corporation. Theft causes prices to rise, denying them the sale causes prices to fall and force them to become competitive.

On a side note...
Amazon seems to be actively pushing the Android market with their "Free paid app a day" promotion. My question is now, do the developers still get the money for each download or are they the ones to say "hey, promote my app by making it free for 24 hours"?
I think the Android market will always be the step child but on the other hand it is filled with enthusiasts and real people that are approachable. It's more like a team (see this forum). I am very proud to be a member of this community and I am very tempted to switch to an Android phone when I next have the option for a new phone. I currently have a jailbroken iPhone 3GS and probably paid more on Cydia than on iTunes Also, I have paid for way more apps on the Xoom (and way more money was spent) than all my iPhone apps together!

funnycreature said:
Amazon seems to be actively pushing the Android market with their "Free paid app a day" promotion. My question is now, do the developers still get the money for each download or are they the ones to say "hey, promote my app by making it free for 24 hours"?
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Yes, they do get a % of the price of the App, I think they receive 20% when the app is listed for the free app of the day - There are some other stipulations to that though. They get 70%? I believe when the app is purchased normally and Amazon keeps 30% finders fee so to speak, covers CC Processing and Amazon over head.

I would gladly buy the apps if i only could. Like someone already posted, apps are not exactly expensive when you consider the price we have paid for our Xooms.
Only problem is that for some reason Google doesn't offer paid apps in my country
I understand that Market Enabler also doesn't work for wifi only Xoom?
Does anyone know a way how i could buy apps?

Piracy: How to protect an app?

Hello guys,
are you one of the android developers pissed off by piracy?
I have about 4000 active illegal users (70%), but my app is without any security checks.
Have you found a solution? I gave up on google security checks, it was too easy to hack. There is something more secure?
I've done a lot of research, but I am searching also for some real experience by xda users.
Thank you!

Well, if you chose to implement in-app purchasing, then I suppose that might solve your problem.

taomorpheus said:
Hello guys,
are you one of the android developers pissed off by piracy?
I have about 4000 active illegal users (70%), but my app is without any security checks.
Have you found a solution? I gave up on google security checks, it was too easy to hack. There is something more secure?
I've done a lot of research, but I am searching also for some real experience by xda users.
Thank you!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you have your own server you could crosscheck the user's google account with your purchase list.
Do it hidden, in multiple places and act delayed if you find out about a pirated version, then it's really hard to crack.
If you talk about your facebook app you could be kinda bad mannered and post that they are using an illegal app on their wall
Of course you'd have to be absolutely sure then

octobclrnts said:
Well, if you chose to implement in-app purchasing, then I suppose that might solve your problem.
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I can't because a lot of people have already purchased the app in the classic way!
superkoal said:
If you have your own server you could crosscheck the user's google account with your purchase list.
Do it hidden, in multiple places and act delayed if you find out about a pirated version, then it's really hard to crack.
If you talk about your facebook app you could be kinda bad mannered and post that they are using an illegal app on their wall
Of course you'd have to be absolutely sure then
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Actually this is a really cool idea, can I access to my google account using google api?

superkoal said:
If you have your own server you could crosscheck the user's google account with your purchase list.
Do it hidden, in multiple places and act delayed if you find out about a pirated version, then it's really hard to crack.
If you talk about your facebook app you could be kinda bad mannered and post that they are using an illegal app on their wall
Of course you'd have to be absolutely sure then
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I like this.

taomorpheus said:
Actually this is a really cool idea, can I access to my google account using google api?
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Have a look at this:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2245545/accessing-google-account-id-username-via-android

superkoal said:
Have a look at this:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2245545/accessing-google-account-id-username-via-android
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My Kaspersky Anti-Virus programm says that it is a fishing site.
However, it is STACKOVERFLOW!!!

nikwen said:
My Kaspersky Anti-Virus programm says that it is a fishing site.
However, it is STACKOVERFLOW!!!
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Kaspersky :silly:

taomorpheus said:
I can't because a lot of people have already purchased the app in the classic way!
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Sent
In my opinion, create some sort of pop up that says "Attention pirated user, I'm glad you love my app as much as I loved making it, but I need to make money off of it. Please officially purchase this app "
Then have an In app purchase option in the pop up. This would make me want to purchase the app if I pirated it. I don't really believe that fighting piracy with DRM does anything but cause harm. You should just try and make the pirated users feel bad and encourage them to buy the app.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app

v3nturetheworld said:
Sent
In my opinion, create some sort of pop up that says "Attention pirated user, I'm glad you love my app as much as I loved making it, but I need to make money off of it. Please officially purchase this app "
Then have an In app purchase option in the pop up. This would make me want to purchase the app if I pirated it. I don't really believe that fighting piracy with DRM does anything but cause harm. You should just try and make the pirated users feel bad and encourage them to buy the app.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
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Ahah yeah that's a good solution!
I've noticed that most of the pirated users come from Burma, where google play doesn't work. So I think that I will leave the app in this way and create another pro version for the nations that have google play issues!

But... how about implementing a solution like ROM Manager does? I mean, with a separate app and a pirate popup as suggested above? I'm clueless on what technology use to create a licensing APK, but it would be easier even for those people that haven't got Play Store, maybe
Tiwiz

I guess the main app checks if the Lisence app is installed and if installed it checks the key from a database of the license app and checks for the validity of Lisence on the cloud
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taomorpheus said:
Have you found a solution? I gave up on google security checks, it was too easy to hack. There is something more secure?
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Piracy is a "fact of life" for software. And most anti-piracy measures tend to hurt legitimate paid customers (and the dev) more than the pirates.
If you have a good, useful app, those guys in China can hack almost anything. (No offense to China; no Play there, lower income and an anti-IP culture.)
There are a FEW successful devs who have gone to extra-ordinary lengths at the JNI level. I tested, but never turned any JNI anti-hacking code on, because with thousands of paid users on many weird phones and ROMs, I felt it would break for enough people to not be worth it.
If you have an app that needs a server connection, or data updates, and you have some kind of independent registration system, you have a chance too. But that can be a lot of work.
I'd rather spend my time making my app better and supporting customers. My app price is higher than many would like (but I have virtually no paid competition). And because my app is support intensive, I've taken the view that I'm selling support and convenient updates, not an app, so much.
I mostly verify people are customers before supporting them, do as good a job as I can, get good reviews, and people see there is value there for their money. And yes, I get tons of support requests from pirates. Some of them I've converted to customers.
And... regular updates to an app provides value. If pirates want the latest, they keep having to go look for it. (Or do I recall some pirate update service ?) Updates via Play are easy and that ease has value.
All the above said, I do get angry from time to time, mostly at people stealing my time IE support. And the idea of finding a highly effective anti-piracy measure is fascinating.
But almost none of us is without some sin in our life regarding music, movies or software downloading... So I think it's good to consider the pirates' perspectives. Effective antipiracy definitely drastically reduces the user base and the Internet knowledge base and familiarity, and its' questionable as to how much revenue might increase, if at all.
IE, piracy can be seen as free advertising, and an opportunity to show some pirates there are valid reasons why going legitimate might benefit them, or even reduce their guilt level. I've had a few people buy my app and apologize...

mikereidis said:
Piracy is a "fact of life" for software. And most anti-piracy measures tend to hurt legitimate paid customers (and the dev) more than the pirates.
If you have a good, useful app, those guys in China can hack almost anything. (No offense to China; no Play there, lower income and an anti-IP culture.)
There are a FEW successful devs who have gone to extra-ordinary lengths at the JNI level. I tested, but never turned any JNI anti-hacking code on, because with thousands of paid users on many weird phones and ROMs, I felt it would break for enough people to not be worth it.
If you have an app that needs a server connection, or data updates, and you have some kind of independent registration system, you have a chance too. But that can be a lot of work.
I'd rather spend my time making my app better and supporting customers. My app price is higher than many would like (but I have virtually no paid competition). And because my app is support intensive, I've taken the view that I'm selling support and convenient updates, not an app, so much.
I mostly verify people are customers before supporting them, do as good a job as I can, get good reviews, and people see there is value there for their money. And yes, I get tons of support requests from pirates. Some of them I've converted to customers.
And... regular updates to an app provides value. If pirates want the latest, they keep having to go look for it. (Or do I recall some pirate update service ?) Updates via Play are easy and that ease has value.
All the above said, I do get angry from time to time, mostly at people stealing my time IE support. And the idea of finding a highly effective anti-piracy measure is fascinating.
But almost none of us is without some sin in our life regarding music, movies or software downloading... So I think it's good to consider the pirates' perspectives. Effective antipiracy definitely drastically reduces the user base and the Internet knowledge base and familiarity, and its' questionable as to how much revenue might increase, if at all.
IE, piracy can be seen as free advertising, and an opportunity to show some pirates there are valid reasons why going legitimate might benefit them, or even reduce their guilt level. I've had a few people buy my app and apologize...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, this is my philosophy. I usually reply to all emails, build the app around the feedback from the community and try to fix all the issues. This permits to create a loyal group of users, and it's the reason why apps like Facebook Home are hated so much: they talk about building apps around people, but for them people is the product, so it's a fail from the beginning
After some considerations I have abandoned the idea to build an antipiracy system, the reason is in part related to your thoughts but also because the 60-70% of pirated versions come from nations like Burma, indonesia, etc etc. So I don't feel that someone is stealing, google play can't provide a service, so people react. The good thing is that despite the lack of a service, they try to use my apps, so that's good, right?
So, at the conclusion, the best antipiracy system is to not use an antipiracy system. Clearly it will be hard to be supported only by paying customers, but the majority accepts some ads if the product is good ( the important thing is to not include spammy and intrusive services, one banner or a full screen on time a day is sufficient).
Thank you for this reply, it's really important to know that there are good developers around! :highfive:

Have you tried google licensing?
taomorpheus said:
Hello guys,
are you one of the android developers pissed off by piracy?
I have about 4000 active illegal users (70%), but my app is without any security checks.
Have you found a solution? I gave up on google security checks, it was too easy to hack. There is something more secure?
I've done a lot of research, but I am searching also for some real experience by xda users.
Thank you!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
I am new to android development but I've read about google licensing services which checks for user account whether the app is actually purchased from that particular account associated with the user. If authentication fails then user gets a blocking dialog to either exit the app or purchase it from play store.

dbroid said:
Hi,
I am new to android development but I've read about google licensing services which checks for user account whether the app is actually purchased from that particular account associated with the user. If authentication fails then user gets a blocking dialog to either exit the app or purchase it from play store.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cracker can easily remove IF and your won't ask to buy it.
There should be VMProtect or Themida like tool for android

GR0S said:
Cracker can easily remove IF and your won't ask to buy it.
There should be VMProtect or Themida like tool for android
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was hacked not long after its launch.
http://www.androidpolice.com/2010/0...on-easily-circumvented-will-not-stop-pirates/

taomorpheus said:
After some considerations I have abandoned the idea to build an antipiracy system, the reason is in part related to your thoughts but also because the 60-70% of pirated versions come from nations like Burma, indonesia, etc etc. So I don't feel that someone is stealing, google play can't provide a service, so people react. The good thing is that despite the lack of a service, they try to use my apps, so that's good, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. Most pirates can't afford the app or wouldn't buy it anyway. I also think that many pirates and those who felt "forced" to buy a protected app are bad customers. They will spread their bad feelings about the app and the "greedy dev".
And many have a sense of entitlement, so they make demands, expect lots of support, complain and write bad reviews. They project their own faults on others, and always assume others are trying to rip THEM off. Some have told me they were "testing" my app, because they were worried about getting ripped off if it didn't work (despite my free version and anytime cancel policy).
Better not to have such customers. These are the same people who think they are more important than everybody else and cheat in traffic and lineups etc.
taomorpheus said:
So, at the conclusion, the best antipiracy system is to not use an antipiracy system. Clearly it will be hard to be supported only by paying customers, but the majority accepts some ads if the product is good ( the important thing is to not include spammy and intrusive services, one banner or a full screen on time a day is sufficient).
Thank you for this reply, it's really important to know that there are good developers around! :highfive:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For most of us small devs, yes. Things may be different for certain apps, such as those that need a backend server, and for multi-person companies.
You can also promote that your app is "DRM free". That's definitely a plus, especially to custom ROM users who may avoid using Google Play.
I tried ads for a few months in 2011. The "CPM" rates started good, but quickly dropped to almost nothing. I think it's very hard to make money from ads, unless your app has a million users, and they are more "average" people who might click on the ads, accidentally or not.
I think it's usually better to raise app price as high as you can. I experimented a lot for many months between $1 and $10, usually keeping price constant for at least 2-3 weeks. I, and some others, have found that total income remains somewhat constant no matter what the price, LOL.
Now I've left price at the high end, so I can provide the best support possible, by limiting sales quantity. Some people think we should "make it up in volume", but that's a self-serving wish of the person who wants it cheaper. High volume might be viable if you provide zero technical support though.

What I'd say in terms of pirate stuff is to not try too hard on the software level (though I might write a guide on a few useful methods and pieces of code to prevent the usual circumvention methods) but on the upload level. When you release a new version, wait a couple of days and then search for a pirate version of your app. If you find one, report it, they're usually down in about 5 minutes. The more often you do this, the more likely people are to search, find all the links are "dead" and then just think "stuff it, I'll just buy it". However, this will only work on people who can buy it and are using pirate versions because they wish to, not because they have to

Quinny899 said:
What I'd say in terms of pirate stuff is to not try too hard on the software level (though I might write a guide on a few useful methods and pieces of code to prevent the usual circumvention methods) but on the upload level. When you release a new version, wait a couple of days and then search for a pirate version of your app. If you find one, report it, they're usually down in about 5 minutes. The more often you do this, the more likely people are to search, find all the links are "dead" and then just think "stuff it, I'll just buy it". However, this will only work on people who can buy it and are using pirate versions because they wish to, not because they have to
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because they'd PREFER not to spend money, if possible. In most areas of life, that's what most of us do.
Last I looked, this was the best Android cracking site: http://androidcracking.blogspot.ca/ . I read everything there twice before I started experimenting with protection code. If nothing else, it gives a glimpse of how hard it is to protect a popular app well.
I sent DMCA takedown requests to a few sites some time ago, but it's an endless task, and IMO not worth it, unless your app is VERY niche/has relatively few users. I've been "honored" to have my app included in several Torrents full of Android apps. Some of those Torrents are updated regularly.
I will still notify XDA admins if there's a link or offending ROM on XDA. XDA mods take it seriously.
Some companies will put out their own "pirate" fake or crippled versions of movies, and app devs could do the same. Perhaps have endless popups offering to buy the app legitimately. I personally wouldn't bother (at this time) but it could work. I agree that making piracy a hassle may improve sales a bit.
LOL, I just re-looked and see 3 on isohunt that are my app alone, but they are older. If I have time for "fun" later this year I should (1) start my own torrents, (2) collect IP addresses, and... I dunno; don't seriously want to be a copyright troll; rather design & develop.

OUYA Staff should really read this! - Important

Ouya Staff needs to realize a simple truth, that most of us already know, and that has been proven time and tme again....
Trying to stop people from rooting, sideloading, modding is ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS and actually causes LOST REVENUE
Please hear me out, before you argue, complain, etc.. I can explain why this is the case. In general you have (2) main types of users, there are always some that are a little of both, but I would guess the majority fits one of these:
Normal User - Uses the device as they get it, and just enjoy the device and its functions, they may want or like other features, but in MOST cases, don't have the knowledge, or time to research, and manipulate the device.
- Example - These users buy an Ouya and play games from the Ouya store, and do not sideload, root, etc.
- Revenue - These users will buy the device if enough games, apps and content exist to make the purchase price worth it.
Power User - These users buy the device usually with the intention of using it beyond its designed or allowed parameters, they want to get everything out of the device they can. They will push it, they will mod it, and use it in ways never thought of before.
- Example - These users will root their Ouya, put the play store on, run XBMC or plex, run emulators, sideload apks, etc.
- Revenue - These users will buy the device "IF" they think they "CAN" push it and get more out if it, making it into the device they really want. And most will buy some games along the way (see below)
Ouya should realize that if they make changes, or implement things that stop, break or hinder the Power Users - THEY WILL LOSE SALES! You can not try to force a power user to behave like a normal user, this is futile and non productive and here is why:
1. They will not stop trying, and in most cases represent more knowledge and time than the company devs have, they will find a way around it
2. If you hinder your device, than these users will simply buy a differnet device that can be manipulated and you lose sales on devices and without an Ouya , how can they buy apps and help advertisement/marketing by discussing them?
3. These Power Users will still probably try out the Ouya games too, and in most cases buy quite a few. Why not, if the prices are reasonable, then its simply faster and easier to spend $1 - $3, than to spend the time/hassle of sideloading it, etc. These Power users have spouses, kids, and friends that will see the device and lots of app/games sales can come from them, even if the Techy would rather sideload.
4. The Power Users will promote and advertise for you! - These are the guys who really use the devices...HARD, if you have a good product, they will brag about it, tell others, etc. These guys are considered reliably sources, people listen to what they say (good oir bad). I have personally discovered and purchased lots of new tech & devices, by first hearing about it on forums like this.
5. The Power Users can actually HELP you develop, improve and enhance your prioduct, they will find ways to fix bugs, work around limitations, etc. They can help you see capabilities that you may not know exist. Utilize their knowledge, time, creativity and ideas.
6. The hardcore guys that won't buy through the store, will not be convinced to buy, just because USB is broke or somehow sideloading is impossible. They will find away around it or use another device. Either way - you don't gain revenue by stopping these methods! - they were never going to buy anyway.
Example: If I think a game is too expensive, say $10, when I feel its worth $1-3. I may try to sideload it, if I can't, I just go look for another game that is similar, but more reasonably priced. I don't breakdown, and say " Oh well, I will have to buy it" - and I am not alone on this. But if I do sideload it and enjoy it, I tell others about it, and they get excited and then they may go and buy it (maybe because they lack the skill or time to bother sideloading it). So if 3 or 4 people buy it because I told them about it, then you just made 4 sales from me indirectly = REVENUE. If I don't sideload it, my only disscussion on it would be - I saw this game but it way too expensive, so I looked and found this OTHER game which is similar and cheaper - try it! - Now, you lost 3-4 sales.
I personally bought the Ouya during kickstarter, because I saw the potential as a Media Server, I have it now, and I am working on that, BUT - I was surprised at how much time I have spent trying the games, and talking about them to friends. I didn't buy it with that intention, but Ouya gets my money and games sales anyway - because of the "other" uses, they made money! I personally, would never have bought it just to play games. But it is an enjoyable experience in addition to my media server.
I saw posts with people saying if you buy an Ouya and only use it for media or emulation, and dont buy apps, then Ouya wont be successful. Well guess what, if I buy a Roku instead, then Ouya wont be successful either! - this way there is a much better chance I will buy some games if I have the Ouya right it front of me! - if I buy a Roku, I would sing its praises, and Ouya loses that advertisement too. Think about it.
My point is you have 2 real markets here, and BOTH can make you a lot of money, and BOTH can help your device become a huge success. Don't waste time and energy trying to prevent one group from using it. Just work on improving your device and its capabilities, look at the complaints and suggestions, and improve what you can, and explain why you can't improve other things. You can't make everyone happy, but this group is much larger than you realize and ignoring/hindering them can dramatically affect your success or failure in this market.
I know that people will yell at my post and say that the company needs to make money to be successful, and sideloading, rooting, etc is in opposition to that goal. I simply don't agree, I have seen this same scenario play out in PC Games, consoles, Android etc. I believe my points are valid, and I have numerous real world, first hand examples to back it up. I really wish companies would embrace these users instead of fighting them (and losing). We can all benefit here. (Sorry for the long post, I need to work on my brevity :laugh

Zehrfox said:
Example: If I think a game is too expensive, say $10, when I feel its worth $1-3. I may try to sideload it, if I can't, I just go look for another game that is similar, but more reasonably priced. I don't breakdown, and say " Oh well, I will have to buy it" - and I am not alone on this. But if I do sideload it and enjoy it, I tell others about it, and they get excited and then they may go and buy it (maybe because they lack the skill or time to bother sideloading it). So if 3 or 4 people buy it because I told them about it, then you just made 4 sales from me indirectly = REVENUE. If I don't sideload it, my only disscussion on it would be - I saw this game but it way too expensive, so I looked and found this OTHER game which is similar and cheaper - try it! - Now, you lost 3-4 sales.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You appear to think "Sideload" is a synonym for "steal."

nemosomen said:
You appear to think "Sideload" is a synonym for "steal."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it really" stealing" if it's a game you bought already in one of the other Android stores?
Having said that, I do expect to see some piracy on the OUYA, just because the always on DRM will annoy people enough that they will seek a way to end that annoyance one way or another. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it will be very hard to put it back in. Of course the OUYA is different than the usual consoles...
I'm curious to see if there will be overall less piracy as a whole though, as "casual pirates" simply content themselves with the demo and free to play games available to them. Or if lack of piracy goes to lack of sales as well? This is a very interesting experiment we're embarked upon.
Sent from my Nook HD+ using Tapatalk HD

Zehrfox said:
Ouya Staff needs to realize a simple truth, that most of us already know, and that has been proven time and tme again....
Trying to stop people from rooting, sideloading, modding is ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS and actually causes LOST REVENUE
Please hear me out, before you argue, complain, etc.. I can explain why this is the case. In general you have (2) main types of users, there are always some that are a little of both, but I would guess the majority fits one of these:
Normal User - Uses the device as they get it, and just enjoy the device and its functions, they may want or like other features, but in MOST cases, don't have the knowledge, or time to research, and manipulate the device.
- Example - These users buy an Ouya and play games from the Ouya store, and do not sideload, root, etc.
- Revenue - These users will buy the device if enough games, apps and content exist to make the purchase price worth it.
Power User - These users buy the device usually with the intention of using it beyond its designed or allowed parameters, they want to get everything out of the device they can. They will push it, they will mod it, and use it in ways never thought of before.
- Example - These users will root their Ouya, put the play store on, run XBMC or plex, run emulators, sideload apks, etc.
- Revenue - These users will buy the device "IF" they think they "CAN" push it and get more out if it, making it into the device they really want. And most will buy some games along the way (see below)
Ouya should realize that if they make changes, or implement things that stop, break or hinder the Power Users - THEY WILL LOSE SALES! You can not try to force a power user to behave like a normal user, this is futile and non productive and here is why:
1. They will not stop trying, and in most cases represent more knowledge and time than the company devs have, they will find a way around it
2. If you hinder your device, than these users will simply buy a differnet device that can be manipulated and you lose sales on devices and without an Ouya , how can they buy apps and help advertisement/marketing by discussing them?
3. These Power Users will still probably try out the Ouya games too, and in most cases buy quite a few. Why not, if the prices are reasonable, then its simply faster and easier to spend $1 - $3, than to spend the time/hassle of sideloading it, etc. These Power users have spouses, kids, and friends that will see the device and lots of app/games sales can come from them, even if the Techy would rather sideload.
4. The Power Users will promote and advertise for you! - These are the guys who really use the devices...HARD, if you have a good product, they will brag about it, tell others, etc. These guys are considered reliably sources, people listen to what they say (good oir bad). I have personally discovered and purchased lots of new tech & devices, by first hearing about it on forums like this.
5. The Power Users can actually HELP you develop, improve and enhance your prioduct, they will find ways to fix bugs, work around limitations, etc. They can help you see capabilities that you may not know exist. Utilize their knowledge, time, creativity and ideas.
6. The hardcore guys that won't buy through the store, will not be convinced to buy, just because USB is broke or somehow sideloading is impossible. They will find away around it or use another device. Either way - you don't gain revenue by stopping these methods! - they were never going to buy anyway.
Example: If I think a game is too expensive, say $10, when I feel its worth $1-3. I may try to sideload it, if I can't, I just go look for another game that is similar, but more reasonably priced. I don't breakdown, and say " Oh well, I will have to buy it" - and I am not alone on this. But if I do sideload it and enjoy it, I tell others about it, and they get excited and then they may go and buy it (maybe because they lack the skill or time to bother sideloading it). So if 3 or 4 people buy it because I told them about it, then you just made 4 sales from me indirectly = REVENUE. If I don't sideload it, my only disscussion on it would be - I saw this game but it way too expensive, so I looked and found this OTHER game which is similar and cheaper - try it! - Now, you lost 3-4 sales.
I personally bought the Ouya during kickstarter, because I saw the potential as a Media Server, I have it now, and I am working on that, BUT - I was surprised at how much time I have spent trying the games, and talking about them to friends. I didn't buy it with that intention, but Ouya gets my money and games sales anyway - because of the "other" uses, they made money! I personally, would never have bought it just to play games. But it is an enjoyable experience in addition to my media server.
I saw posts with people saying if you buy an Ouya and only use it for media or emulation, and dont buy apps, then Ouya wont be successful. Well guess what, if I buy a Roku instead, then Ouya wont be successful either! - this way there is a much better chance I will buy some games if I have the Ouya right it front of me! - if I buy a Roku, I would sing its praises, and Ouya loses that advertisement too. Think about it.
My point is you have 2 real markets here, and BOTH can make you a lot of money, and BOTH can help your device become a huge success. Don't waste time and energy trying to prevent one group from using it. Just work on improving your device and its capabilities, look at the complaints and suggestions, and improve what you can, and explain why you can't improve other things. You can't make everyone happy, but this group is much larger than you realize and ignoring/hindering them can dramatically affect your success or failure in this market.
I know that people will yell at my post and say that the company needs to make money to be successful, and sideloading, rooting, etc is in opposition to that goal. I simply don't agree, I have seen this same scenario play out in PC Games, consoles, Android etc. I believe my points are valid, and I have numerous real world, first hand examples to back it up. I really wish companies would embrace these users instead of fighting them (and losing). We can all benefit here. (Sorry for the long post, I need to work on my brevity :laugh
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Best post i ever read in a long time: ) i share your opinion.
Sent from my Transformer TF101

It was my understanding that Ouya was going to be fairly open for just these reasons? Haven't been keeping up with jt to much lately but I recall during development there was at least a commitment to work with modders.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

Mostly a good post, but excusing piracy is a lame argument. If a game costs $10 but you think it's worth $1-3, then don't buy it and don't "sideload" it. Sideloading is not the same as stealing, but your argument makes it seem that you feel it is. I've sideloaded a couple of things on my Ouya (through Google Play for the most part), but these are either free Apps, or ones that I already paid for and just installed them through Google Play...so I don't want to be lumped into any group that excuses piracy just because the user is cheap. If you really want to support the console, then buy the games, either through the Ouya store or through Google Play.

brandogg said:
Mostly a good post, but excusing piracy is a lame argument. If a game costs $10 but you think it's worth $1-3, then don't buy it and don't "sideload" it. Sideloading is not the same as stealing, but your argument makes it seem that you feel it is. I've sideloaded a couple of things on my Ouya (through Google Play for the most part), but these are either free Apps, or ones that I already paid for and just installed them through Google Play...so I don't want to be lumped into any group that excuses piracy just because the user is cheap. If you really want to support the console, then buy the games, either through the Ouya store or through Google Play.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If Steam can do it with their Steam Sales why can´t the Ouya? Sometimes things ARE overpriced and people who can't afford 10 bucks could afford 1 to 3 bucks. Is Piracy a good thing, no but its an obvious result to a problem.

Whoever said that there won't be any sales on Ouya? Google Play has sales all the time, I imagine Ouya will too, but give it time - the console has only been on the actual market for like 5 or 6 weeks...
But if "Ouya Staff should really read this! - Important" then the official Ouya forums would probably be a better place for the posting.

Thanks for the replies
To Exnor - Thank You! - your comment means a lot - I was hoping I was not alone on this
Regarding Sideloading: - I did not mean to imply that ALL sideloading is stealing or piracy. I have also sideloaded apps that I have already purchased. The example that I gave was a real example of my own, and I did download the app, from a alternate site and sideload it, instead of paying the store price - in that example, because I felt it was priced too high. Sideloading is at least one way to get apks installed on a device without buying through an app store. In contrast, I have sideloaded a few free apps onto the Ouya, simply because they were not available in the Ouya store.
Ouya Forums: - I am not registered on any other Ouya forums, I may have to look into that to try and get some Ouya Staff to see this info. I truly feel that they are missing a valuable market here (Power Users), and want them to succeed. I was a kickstarter supporter. Feel free to repost this on those forums, if you are a member, and let me know, by posting here.
Thanks to all of you, I sincerely love this forum and the great ideas and information you all share. It has helped me a lot, and I hope my words contribute in some way, because I am not the expert rooter, modder, like most of you are.

Mercenary hackers claim full control over Windows Phone

Read here.... http://www.wpcentral.com/mercenary-hackers-hackingteam-claim-full-control-over-windows-phone. Not sure how to feel about this??? If true then there's definately hope for unlocking more WP8 handsets yet at the same time with all the NSA crap going on and concerns about privacy and security...WTF??? Reading around various forums and sites I am actually surprised how many people are NOT interested in unlocking their devices naming security as their number one reason for switching to the WP8 platform. In all the time I've spent here on the forums, with the exception of a few shady posts by no one of any consequence, I have never seen any maliciousness in the the search for exploits and attempts to unlock devices. If anything it almost seems like a game between devs and MS/OEMS and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if some of the devs here were offered opportunities by those same entities; if not then our gain, MS's loss. However this article got me thinking about the possibilities and implications of any exploits or unlocks found and just wondering what others thought... As for my mindset....I paid for my device with hard earned cash therefore it should be mine to F up as I see fit and I will deal with the consequences like a big boy.

Microsoft buying Apple is much more plausible that what is in there.
Part of having a secret surveillance plan is to actually keep the plan secret.
I doubt the group "responsible" for this would post their achievements on the internet, provided they are supported by the government.

tonbonz said:
Read here.... http://www.wpcentral.com/mercenary-hackers-hackingteam-claim-full-control-over-windows-phone. ... As for my mindset....I paid for my device with hard earned cash therefore it should be mine to F up as I see fit and I will deal with the consequences like a big boy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You and folk like you are in the insignificant minority of the population
There are far to many people that will quite happily blame MS / OEMs / Networks for any and all problems regardless of who actually broke it.
The other thing is said networks / OEMs don't want you arsing about with their phone, for example, ATT take great pride in being able to charge you for a service that is free, if the phone was unlocked that would stop and ATT would be out of pocket. They pull out of WP arena and rollocks your fathers uncle, MS loses market share.
it sucks, but such is life, now that MS has locked down the market place with from what I can tell is completely impervious to abuse, I doubt very much they could give a $h!t what you do to the platform and if you can unlock it, they do however care about market share which is where the networks come in...

Oh, that's pretty plausible, actually. Even if you assume it's for every device on every version of the OS, I'd still be willing to believe it. Microsoft has done well on security with WP8, hardening the OS (NT in general) over the last decade or so to remove vulns, and using pretty good sandboxing of WP8 apps to minimize attack surface. With that said, there are still items being found, and patched (at least on the PC), regularly in Windows. Some of those vulnerabilities will be present and reachable on WP8 as well, and given how slowly phone updates roll out, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a known but un-patched issue being exploited. For that matter, it could be a true zero-day - something Microsoft is completely unaware of, at least when the exploit was first used - although I think that's less likely.

dazza9075 said:
You and folk like you are in the insignificant minority of the population
There are far to many people that will quite happily blame MS / OEMs / Networks for any and all problems regardless of who actually broke it.
The other thing is said networks / OEMs don't want you arsing about with their phone, for example, ATT take great pride in being able to charge you for a service that is free, if the phone was unlocked that would stop and ATT would be out of pocket. They pull out of WP arena and rollocks your fathers uncle, MS loses market share.
it sucks, but such is life, now that MS has locked down the market place with from what I can tell is completely impervious to abuse, I doubt very much they could give a $h!t what you do to the platform and if you can unlock it, they do however care about market share which is where the networks come in...
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Click to collapse
I'm used to being the minority, in a world full of sheep I'd much rather be a wolf, but insignificant? Harsh... Of course the security of the platform is probably the biggest selling point MS had to offer the networks and with perfect timing. I'm sure it's helped increase market shares when everyone's worried about keeping their data secure. As for the marketplace, I am constantly amazed at the apps being created but use very few myself. My kid spends more time on my Lumia than I do; using the Kid's Room feature to play games. Another brilliant "security" feature and one of the first features I point out to any parent asking about the platform. Anyways, knowing the work done here and intentions behind it, seeing that some group possibly gained full access to the platform simply for the purpose of "spying" for anyone that can pay their fees kinda p***ed me off and wondered what others thoughts were...

"Mercenary hackers claim full control over Windows Phone"
and my grandpa told me he had sex with Lili Marleen... but who know... maybe has maybe not

tonbonz said:
I'm used to being the minority, in a world full of sheep I'd much rather be a wolf, but insignificant? Harsh... Of course the security of the platform is probably the biggest selling point MS had to offer the networks and with perfect timing. I'm sure it's helped increase market shares when everyone's worried about keeping their data secure. As for the marketplace, I am constantly amazed at the apps being created but use very few myself. My kid spends more time on my Lumia than I do; using the Kid's Room feature to play games. Another brilliant "security" feature and one of the first features I point out to any parent asking about the platform. Anyways, knowing the work done here and intentions behind it, seeing that some group possibly gained full access to the platform simply for the purpose of "spying" for anyone that can pay their fees kinda p***ed me off and wondered what others thoughts were...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
aye, we are significant in our world but there are a lot more numpties out there then there are of us

GoodDayToDie said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a known but un-patched issue being exploited..
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I totally agree with you but until I see something concrete these are only words...or like I can say in Italian:
fatti, non pugnette!:laugh: (facts, no word please)

Oh, to be sure. Still, it actually gives me a little hope for finding a universal "jailbreak" hack... although I'd prefer one that isn't remotely exploitable.