Related
Have a look:
http://www.mobinaute.com/76097-image-htc-omni-pdaphone-3g-gps-windows-mobile.html
can't WAIT!!!!
Cheers
Nice find!
But, it still looks like an unfinished design to me.
yeah, but release date was set for NOVEMBER 2007 (two o o seven)
Will see what will happen then- by I can't really wait
I can't read the site, but what is the difference between the coming HTC OMNI and the IMate Ultimate 7150: http://www.gsmarena.com/i_mate_ultimate_7150-1882.php
Or which is better? Hoping that both will come out this year...
---
For me, the main thing is "omni is htc innovation"
In French, I cannot read French.
Detailed Information on the HTC Omni
Translated french website to English http://translate.google.com/transla...t&prev=/search?q=www.mobinaute.com&hl=en&sa=G
More details on the HTC Omni http://mobilitysite.com/2007/07/htc-omni-details-leaked/ The difference Between the HTC Omni & I-mate Ultimate 7150 is that the I-mate Ultimate 7150 is not made by HTC. I had emailed I-mate out of Dubai a few months ago on this question and that's what they replied back to me. The HTC Omni is the predecessor of the HTC Univerisal. By comparing the specifications of the two I would 100% pick the HTC Omni over the I-mate Ultimate 7150. I currently have a Qtek 9000 and am waiting for the HTC Omni once available to upgrade to this device. It is well worth the wait.
Am I the only one who thinks that the Omni's design totally sucks?...
I mean, come on guys, IMHO its plain ugly :s
Tech:
CPU: Samsung 400MHz
Screens: 4 inch, 800 x 480 (probably like EXEC so you can rotate it) + 2nd small on the front
Mem: 128 RAM, 256 disk mem
BT: 2.0
WiFi: 802.11g
Radio: GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSDPA
They are not too sure if there will be GPS (Qualcomm?) or when PDA will be released. Probably November but we will see
Personaly I just can't wait!!!!!!!
(on the other hand I can't imagine 800x480. Which app will support this? I do have problems with VGA sometimes...
800 x 640 or 800 x 480?
edit: its is 800 x 480(not 800 x 640 as mentioned in the aforementioned post) See here
kdskamal said:
800 x 640 or 800 x 480?
edit: its is 800 x 480(not 800 x 640 as mentioned in the aforementioned post) See here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kamal is right I was TOO EXITED
Cheers and thanks!
which processor
Which processor is better - the 400mhz sammy or the 520 mhz intel - cause i know mhz isnt everything - but it does seem to me like all these processors could do with a little more power
wraypa1 said:
Which processor is better - the 400mhz sammy or the 520 mhz intel - cause i know mhz isnt everything - but it does seem to me like all these processors could do with a little more power
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as I know .... there are no information about CPU jet.
So we should simply wait until someone leaks this info.
Speculation does not make any sense.
UPD: Looks like the Samsung 400Mhz can be true but I hope they will use the ~620Mhz CPU from Athena
wraypa1 said:
Which processor is better - the 400mhz sammy or the 520 mhz intel - cause i know mhz isnt everything - but it does seem to me like all these processors could do with a little more power
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Samsung's 400mhz throughput is ~=Intel's 520mhz
kdskamal said:
Samsung's 400mhz throughput is ~=Intel's 520mhz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyway, if there will be some kind of graphical accelerator then CPU can be slower/same speed.
We do need GPU!
columb said:
Anyway, if there will be some kind of graphical accelerator then CPU can be slower/same speed.
We do need GPU!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess, there will be a GPU in it ... cause of the TV/VGA out
I also hope that the AUX display will realy be part of the device.
Park said:
Translated french website to English http://translate.google.com/transla...t&prev=/search?q=www.mobinaute.com&hl=en&sa=G
More details on the HTC Omni http://mobilitysite.com/2007/07/htc-omni-details-leaked/ The difference Between the HTC Omni & I-mate Ultimate 7150 is that the I-mate Ultimate 7150 is not made by HTC. I had emailed I-mate out of Dubai a few months ago on this question and that's what they replied back to me. The HTC Omni is the predecessor of the HTC Univerisal. By comparing the specifications of the two I would 100% pick the HTC Omni over the I-mate Ultimate 7150. I currently have a Qtek 9000 and am waiting for the HTC Omni once available to upgrade to this device. It is well worth the wait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another translated French link to English http://translate.google.com/transla...rch?q=www.mobinaute.com+(HTC+Omni)&hl=en&sa=G
Micro SD is very disappointing, I don't understand why so many manufacturers of PDA-phones are using this when normal-SD is surely cheaper and can support 8GB+? Other than that, very impressive
sl9 said:
Micro SD is very disappointing, I don't understand why so many manufacturers of PDA-phones are using this when normal-SD is surely cheaper and can support 8GB+? Other than that, very impressive
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess, this could be the same mafia methods ... they are doing with printers.
The Micro-SD drive could be mutch cheaper then a normal SD drive. So a hardware builder will select the cheaper one.
The only thing which worries me is LACK of official info/real pictures etc.
This French site is claiming that Omni should be available in November 2007...
Anyway, fingers crossed! There is nothing really good at the moment on the market.
The new HTC Desire HD is now on HTC's website.
It is HD2 copy but with Android.
Nand on the way(?) when these are in XDA forum users hands.
the hardware is the same? I don't think soo :S
Snapdragon 8255 1gz
768MB of RAM
internal storage 1.5gb
and a battery 1230ma
8mpx
ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh I want one, I want one, I want one! or I'll settle for a nice android port.
really wana get a dump of the Desire HD so i can port it to the HD2, all those new widgets and apps, along with new camera app! easy port to be made
the desire hd is too easy to port like EVO....what I means is: EVO = HTC DESIRE HD
really hard to dump
No Hardware is a bit different, it uses a MSM8255 with a die size of 45nm instead of an QSD8250 CPU which die size is 65nm, this msm8255 CPU is based on the same core as the snapdragon QSD8250 of the HD2 and Desire, but will be more energy efficient.
It also features a possibility of 720P recording, probably it will do 720P HD playback as well with hardware acceleration in the CPU.
It features more RAM 786 instead of (unlocked HD2) 576MB. different screen, super LCD and last but not least, an 4GB internal flash drive and some features for faster booting.
Still hope we soon will find a really stable android release which will definitly replace WM6.5..
forgot to mention the (Dutch) source:
http://tweakers.net/reviews/1777/5/...droid-hardware-een-4-komma-3-inch-scherm.html
TheTeek said:
an 4GB internal flash drive]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
4GB... are you sure???
http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_desire-3077.php
That says 1.5GB...
Nonetheless, 8mpx, faster loading time, more ram, more nand, blah blah blah, still pretty much = HD2 Android.
I urge everyone to wait for the new CPU man. It's RTM Q4/2010.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/08/qualcomm-1-5ghz-dual-core-snapdragon-devices-to-arrive-at-end-o/
The fake HD3 specs could true for some specs like 1Gb Ram Given the new Desire HD got 768mb ram.
Yeah.. Desire HD is Evo 4G...
and the spec is not that much different from HD2... even galaxy S got better spec then it (pity it got the iPhone wanna be looks,, hate it..)
I'll stick to HD2 until there's a big leap in Android phone...
deleted...
zelduy said:
Yeah.. Desire HD is Evo 4G...
and the spec is not that much different from HD2... even galaxy S got better spec then it (pity it got the iPhone wanna be looks,, hate it..)
I'll stick to HD2 until there's a big leap in Android phone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My thoughts too. a fast SD card could will do the trick, besides we'll always be able to use WM at any time.
Until something with a TP2 form factor comes out, I don't think I'm getting a new device. I really miss the keyboard. Resco KB is doing the trick in WM, but it's not like feeling the buttons.
And for God's sake, add some specs. HTC is becoming like Nokia, same hardware in different enclosure every few months.
dang you all . this is android development channel not ur chit chat channel. push this into the android development general thread. why dont noobs understand what and where to put things @@@@
dealer75 said:
I got one for testing purposes...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you ever know that you're our hero? and you can fly higher than an Eagle and you are the wind between our legs?
What the deuce!!, just bought my HD2 4 weeks ago and still got my Nexus, Touch HD and Pro2 from last year lying around Curse you HTC, curse you!!!
deleted...
hi, can u get roms and post here....
deleted...
dealer75 said:
Nope, sorry, flashing is in a different department. We´re testing only our software on this devices to ensure the functionality on different enviroments. I can help only with pics and information which I can see in the device.
BTW, the Ace has a fullscreen watermark.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is it possible for you to post the .apks from the phone. this will help in development .. only if its possible.
TheTeek said:
No Hardware is a bit different, it uses a MSM8255 with a die size of 45nm instead of an QSD8250 CPU which die size is 65nm, this msm8255 CPU is based on the same core as the snapdragon QSD8250 of the HD2 and Desire, but will be more energy efficient.
It also features a possibility of 720P recording, probably it will do 720P HD playback as well with hardware acceleration in the CPU.
It features more RAM 786 instead of (unlocked HD2) 576MB. different screen, super LCD and last but not least, an 4GB internal flash drive and some features for faster booting.
Still hope we soon will find a really stable android release which will definitly replace WM6.5..
forgot to mention the (Dutch) source:
http://tweakers.net/reviews/1777/5/...droid-hardware-een-4-komma-3-inch-scherm.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
using my computer knowledge, all these won't affect porting if they use same component for radio/IO/DSP/wireless/bluetooth/GPS...etc
die shrink usually means pin-to-pin compatibility.
dealer75 said:
Nope, sorry, flashing is in a different department. We´re testing only our software on this devices to ensure the functionality on different enviroments. I can help only with pics and information which I can see in the device.
BTW, the Ace has a fullscreen watermark.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess you cannot disassemble them and look at chips inside then...
richteralan said:
I guess you cannot disassemble them and look at chips inside then...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but what's the point? is it going to change anything...? all that we need is the rom dump and the rest is up to cooks.
btw, this thread is kinda pointless imho. we all know about release of desire hd and z.
So, here is the thing, i bought my father a phone from one of those chinese imports, at the time i didnt quite check the autenticity of the product, i looked at the price and purchased, well, my father will never figure it out ir its real or not, im just asking out of curiosity
Here is the link of the item i purchased
www . aliexpress . com / snapshot / 100404380 . html
(remove spaces)
Sorry, it seems i cant post links, but its sort of necessary for this question
Its funny that even the box looks real, what caught my attention were the sound holes in the back
Anyways, looking for some expert eyes on it, its payed already, im not going to regret my purchase or anything, its just out of curiosity, the link above is filled with imgs of the phone.
Thanks in advance.
By looking at the 6th and 8th pictures (bottom of the phone; open back of the phone) in the description, you can easily tell it's fake. The 3.5mm headphone jack is missing from the bottom of the phone, the hardware Home Button (should be between Call and Start) is missing, and the back of the phone does not have that layout. Heck, the provided battery is 1500mAh, whereas the stock HTC HD2 battery is only 1230mAh.
DSkhury said:
So, here is the thing, i bought my father a phone from one of those chinese imports, at the time i didnt quite check the autenticity of the product, i looked at the price and purchased, well, my father will never figure it out ir its real or not, im just asking out of curiosity
Here is the link of the item i purchased
www . aliexpress . com / snapshot / 100404380 . html
(remove spaces)
Sorry, it seems i cant post links, but its sort of necessary for this question
Its funny that even the box looks real, what caught my attention were the sound holes in the back
Anyways, looking for some expert eyes on it, its payed already, im not going to regret my purchase or anything, its just out of curiosity, the link above is filled with imgs of the phone.
Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
fake......
Lol figured it was,
It seems it comes with the same processing unit tho, snapdragon 1 ghz, hopefully my dad will never notice the diferece, anyone knows if its possible to install android on this fake phone?
sadly no its not an hd2 and therefore hd2 roms will brick it
DSkhury said:
Lol figured it was,
It seems it comes with the same processing unit tho, snapdragon 1 ghz, hopefully my dad will never notice the diferece, anyone knows if its possible to install android on this fake phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes Android can be run on it...there are special custom ROMs....a search should do !!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=916087
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=969661
Source: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=988070
DSkhury said:
Lol figured it was,
It seems it comes with the same processing unit tho, snapdragon 1 ghz, hopefully my dad will never notice the diferece, anyone knows if its possible to install android on this fake phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think so.
Cpu: 533M Hisilicon (updated to be Qualcomm Snapdragon QSD8250, 1GHz)
RAM + ROM: 256MB
(Updated software to be 512ROM +488 RAM)
4.3inches resistance touch screen-Does that mean i can punch it and it will survive?
GSM: 850/900/1800/1900 MHz
Resolution: 480 X 800 WVGA
Windows Mobile phone 6.5
Cpu: 533M Hisilicon (updated to be Qualcomm Snapdragon QSD8250, 1GHz)
RAM + ROM: 256MB
(Updated software to be 512ROM +488 RAM)
Dual Camera 3.0 mega camera dual LED flashlights and auto focus - Dual Camera 3.0 WTF? hahaha its totally fake but an interesting buy
Let me know how it goes
This one sounds like a more legit HD2 Maybe Not But Id Go For It
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/405273898/windows_mobile_phone_hd2_dual_sim.html
windows mobile phone hd2 dual sim
1 dual sim standby
2 dual camera about 8.0/1.3
3 windows mobile 6.5
4 wifi gps
Features:
Windows Mobile 6.5 OS smartphone
Quad-band:GSM900/1800/1900/850MHz;
Fashionable Shining Style:
4.3” TOUCH Screen WVGA Capacitive Screen:480x800 pixel resolution;
4.3'' big screen capacitive screen dual sim smart phone
Language:Chinese/Japanese/English/French/German/Greek/Finnish/Italian/Swedish/Spanish/Dutch/Norwegian/Danish/Czech/Polish/Portuguese/Russian/Korean
LCD Size :4.3 inches WVGA, 800x480px
OS:Windows Mobile 6.5
CPU :MTK6516 460*2
GPS :Support
WiFi :Support, 802.11b
Memory: 512M RAM ,256M ROM , built-in 8GB standard ( 16GB for choice )
Music: Perfect bass output, equipped with one professional earphone
Camera ual cameras( Front 1.3MP,Back about 8.0MP camera, auto focus )
Video: 3GP/MPG4/AVI/ASF/WMV/RMVB/AMR video; MP3/WAV/WMA audio
FM :radio Support
Data Transfer USB/Bluetooth, U disc under the third party software, activsync
Telephone directories 100000 groups, unlimited telephone directory, can record more than 20 items
Games built-in PPC games,can download thousands of PPC 3D games,JAVA 3D unimited download.
More information Office softwares and other PPC softwares
Color black
Size 121x 67 x 12.6 mm
Weight 150g
mrxkills said:
This one sounds like a more legit HD2 Maybe Not But Id Go For It
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/405273898/windows_mobile_phone_hd2_dual_sim.html
windows mobile phone hd2 dual sim
1 dual sim standby
2 dual camera about 8.0/1.3
3 windows mobile 6.5
4 wifi gps
Features:
Windows Mobile 6.5 OS smartphone
Quad-band:GSM900/1800/1900/850MHz;
Fashionable Shining Style:
4.3” TOUCH Screen WVGA Capacitive Screen:480x800 pixel resolution;
4.3'' big screen capacitive screen dual sim smart phone
Language:Chinese/Japanese/English/French/German/Greek/Finnish/Italian/Swedish/Spanish/Dutch/Norwegian/Danish/Czech/Polish/Portuguese/Russian/Korean
LCD Size :4.3 inches WVGA, 800x480px
OS:Windows Mobile 6.5
CPU :MTK6516 460*2
GPS :Support
WiFi :Support, 802.11b
Memory: 512M RAM ,256M ROM , built-in 8GB standard ( 16GB for choice )
Music: Perfect bass output, equipped with one professional earphone
Camera ual cameras( Front 1.3MP,Back about 8.0MP camera, auto focus )
Video: 3GP/MPG4/AVI/ASF/WMV/RMVB/AMR video; MP3/WAV/WMA audio
FM :radio Support
Data Transfer USB/Bluetooth, U disc under the third party software, activsync
Telephone directories 100000 groups, unlimited telephone directory, can record more than 20 items
Games built-in PPC games,can download thousands of PPC 3D games,JAVA 3D unimited download.
More information Office softwares and other PPC softwares
Color black
Size 121x 67 x 12.6 mm
Weight 150g
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The internal storage and RAM are pretty low. If I was buying a clone, I'd at least get 1024 storage and 1024 RAM. And preferably the snapdragon CPU.
EDIT: But the key thing to realize is that it will probably NOT work with the standard custom ROMs in these forums; it has different hardware. So whatever you get is what you have for an OS.
can the htc p3300 support windows mobile 7?
trpride said:
can the htc p3300 support windows mobile 7?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think HTC P3300 does not support windows mobile 7 because the requirements needed to be able to run WM7 devices must be equipped with at least a minimum 1GHz ARM processor or better and a minimum of 256MB of RAM with at least 8GB of Flash memory. Devices must also have 3 pieces button. while the specifications of the HTC P3300 201 MHz ARM processor, 64 MB RAM
trpride said:
can the htc p3300 support windows mobile 7?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
unfortunately you cant use WM7 on the artemis. the following are the minimum hardware requirements for your phone to be able to run WM7
Capacitive, 4-point multi-touch screen with WVGA (480x800) resolution
1 GHz ARM v7 "Cortex/Scorpion" or better processor
DirectX9 rendering-capable GPU
256 MB of RAM with at least 8 GB of Flash memory
Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor and Assisted GPS
5-megapixel camera with an LED flash
FM radio tuner
6 dedicated hardware buttons - back, Start, search, 2-stage camera, power/sleep and Volume Up and Down
thanks and which rom do u suggest??
trpride said:
thanks and which rom do u suggest??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you're most welcome. im afraid i cant help you much on the ROM section, namely because i did not experiment on many ROMs with my phone. sorry about that
Hello Guys what do you think about the new Version of WP ...
Do you think it is Possible on our HD² ?
Mod Edit: Edited post to something readable...
OMG you just kill my eyes, who can this be possible
Hello Guys what do you think about my awesome choice of colour
do you think you will be able to see ever again!!
just read an article. confirmed that almost all if not, every single phone running WP7 will not be able to run WP8. WP7 users will get the 7.8 update. Adding some of the features of 8 to us 7 users.
My hd2
ayopancheezy said:
just read an article. confirmed that almost all if not, every single phone running WP7 will not be able to run WP8. WP7 users will get the 7.8 update. Adding some of the features of 8 to us 7 users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We all know by now that our lovely HD2 is either a wp7 or wp8 phone and not even an android phone yet we have seen it rock the mobile world just fine. I really hope the developer who have given my HD2 a very happy and long life will still push to the edge to see if there is any chance of getting wp8 on HD2.
Thank you and hoping for the best
after some research and some articles i have read today.
there's no chance to run WP8 on HD2. maybe we can get 7.8
as blackinaction said, the same was claimed for WP7 and we do have it now on our HD2. No one can be sure that we will not have WP8 also.
We'll see what cotulla say about wp8 on HD2 when first rom would be released.
btw MAGLDR 2.0 will be released soon.
i hope the HD2 sees the light of WP8. I hope there are more apps and everything.
I wouldn't hold my breath on further development on the HD2 beyond 7.8. Besides a handful of cooks development has come to a halt.
I think that WP8 will be available for our HD2 !! I think really !
Nixeus said:
I think that WP8 will be available for our HD2 !! I think really !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Long live HD2, Windows Phone 8 will be here, let's pray
of course GOD cotulla will bring WP8 to HD2.:good:
Must...have!
will release today
Hardware limitations is the only factor that would prevent us from having wp8 on the hd2 but the chefs never cease to amaze me..
Long live the hd2 and prosper!:highfive:
blackinaction said:
We all know by now that our lovely HD2 is either a wp7 or wp8 phone and not even an android phone yet we have seen it rock the mobile world just fine. I really hope the developer who have given my HD2 a very happy and long life will still push to the edge to see if there is any chance of getting wp8 on HD2.
Thank you and hoping for the best
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that was what I thought. Imagine if HD2 could only be stuck in the jurassic WM 6.5 with Sense with all the hardware it has? Wow...
I put WM 8773 ROM in my HD2 (came out from 1,5years into WM6.5) and wow... It's simply incredible.
I think HD2 does have hardware to support WP8... Maybe not for some games, but in general, I'm pretty sure.
Hoping for the best!
ctito said:
Yes, that was what I thought. Imagine if HD2 could only be stuck in the jurassic WM 6.5 with Sense with all the hardware it has? Wow...
I put WM 8773 ROM in my HD2 (came out from 1,5years into WM6.5) and wow... It's simply incredible.
I think HD2 does have hardware to support WP8... Maybe not for some games, but in general, I'm pretty sure.
Hoping for the best!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree
I heard that HTC will release 3 cell phones for WP8
HTC Rio
RAM : 512 MB
CPU: 1 or 2 cores Qualcomm
Display: WVGA 400 x 800
4 inch
14.4Mbps HSPA
HTC Accord
RAM: 1024 MB
CPU: 2 cores Qualcomm S4 Plus
Camera : 8 MP - 1080p video ..ـــ 30fps
Display: 720p - Super LCD 2
4.3 inch
42Mbps HSPA+
NFC Support
HTC Zenith
RAM: 2048 MB
CPU : Quad Core Qualcomm
Camera : 12 MP - 1080p video ..more than ـــ 40 fps
Display: 720p - Super LCD 2
4.7 inch
42Mbps HSPA+
NFC Support
So If you compare HD2 with these 3 phones, we can understand that HD2 is equal HTC RIO
the only problem I think, is DRIVERS.
of cotulla or other cookers can solve the driver issue, we will have WP8 on our HD2 as the first people.
Mehrdad201 said:
I agree
I heard that HD2 will release 3 cell phones for WP8
HTC Rio
RAM : 512 MB
CPU: 1 or 2 cores Qualcomm
Display: WVGA 400 x 800
4 inch
14.4Mbps HSPA
HTC Accord
RAM: 1024 MB
CPU: 2 cores Qualcomm S4 Plus
Camera : 8 MP - 1080p video ..ـــ 30fps
Display: 720p - Super LCD 2
4.3 inch
42Mbps HSPA+
NFC Support
HTC Zenith
RAM: 2048 MB
CPU : Quad Core Qualcomm
Camera : 12 MP - 1080p video ..more than ـــ 40 fps
Display: 720p - Super LCD 2
4.7 inch
42Mbps HSPA+
NFC Support
So If you compare HD2 with these 3 phones, we can understand that HD2 is equal HTC RIO
the only problem I think, is DRIVERS.
of cotulla or other cookers can solve the driver issue, we will have WP8 on our HD2 as the first people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting... But I wonder the video-card of HD2, if it'll still be able to run "60 fps" interface and the games. And HD2 (at least mine) only shows 372mb RAM, added to the high-heat, which means I guess that the phone is working hard a lot to keep the OS stable and smooth with all the features.
Well, this is a strong cellphone, I hope it can run also WP8 smoothly and so do we all.
ctito said:
Interesting... But I wonder the video-card of HD2, if it'll still be able to run "60 fps" interface and the games. And HD2 (at least mine) only shows 372mb RAM, added to the high-heat, which means I guess that the phone is working hard a lot to keep the OS stable and smooth with all the features.
Well, this is a strong cellphone, I hope it can run also WP8 smoothly and so do we all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tested WP7.5 and also Android on my HD2
in my idea, heat is significantly more when I am running Android.
and HD2 has 576 MB of ram.
And finally we have to wait for the future news.....