Hi,
My request will surprise many of you, but here is what I want. I am a developer of Flash based programs and I live a nightmare with all those VGA devices out there.
As they have to deal with 4 times the amount of pixels as their QVGA friends, they generally perform much slower in graphics.
While this is ok for office programs and other phone tools, they are totally unusable with Flash Graphics.
With my Toshiba e800, using SE_VGA, I managed to get back to true QVGA mode. This has brought back the graphic performance of the device.
SE_VGA won't work on WM5 (it could not even reverse back to QVGA on the e830 under WM2003SE), but can OZVGA do that ?
If not, does someone know how to hack the system, so it can work that way.
Many thanks for your help.
Sorry, I forgot to explain the "real QVGA mode".
Right now, the VGA devices like the Universal show a QVGA screen. They only use the VGA mode for smaller fonts and a few other things.
This screen mode is neither a real VGA nor a real QVGA. It is actually set as VGA in the OS, but it makes sure all the interface reamains as visible as in a QVGA mode.
Now, most of you want to access the Real VGA mode as it displays more stuff, but I want the RealQVGA mode for the reasons I explained above.
The reason why those devises are so slow, is that the OS must quadruple each pixels as it displays content. This is an enormous task and there no chance that it could achieve acceptable Flash animations this way.
So I am looking for a great hacker that could do this.
Thanks
minimac: although the devices are slow, I don't think it's just pixel doubling that's the cause. I'm sure it's more memory issues then screen interface - my alpha app VJSihaya uses quite a lot of relatively extreme video processing compared to normal use of GWES, but it works at a perfectly good speed.
However, I agree with you, a non pixel doubled display would be faster for you, cutting out the extra processing. However, isn't that the problem? The Universal's VGA screen is 640x480, so the hardware wants to show 640x480. If you want QVGA, the info must either be quadrupled, or just sit in 1/4 of the screen.
I think options may be either playing with the DPI settings as was hacked with OZVGA etc, to force a qvga resolution, or alternatively write a hacked display driver to provide native QVGA (equivalent to Nydiot's software). But as I said, I think that will just force the display to sit in one corner of the 640x480 screen.
V
Thanks Vijay for this answer.
This is not reassuring. I am going to try different things. I just wish this was set into the display settings, letting the users decide what they want:
- Real VGA,
- Real QVGA
- or Improved QVGA as it is now.
I mean the universal performs 225 at the benchmarks graphics index where we have seen devices reach 4500 points.
This is just too slow.
Very true. But as I said, VJSihaya windows move around with almost no lag or screendraw issues, (they're slightly slower on the Magician, but the processor is also slower I guess). So I think the graphics processor isn't bad, but certainly not great. I'd kill for an Axim 51v with a phone built in. I was >this< close to going for the Axim and sidestepping the HTCs altogether. No XDA Devs for me then, eh?
I wonder if running flash in a VJSihaya window at QVGA size would improve matters for you... that way, you get the benefits of VGA - ie big screen, plus your flash running at QVGA size. However, I don't know whether the flash issue is crippled by the pixel doubling or the infrastructure of the Universal. But if the flash app is well written to resize appropriately, it'll run lovely jubbly in VJSihaya. What flash app are you running? PM me some links and a demo flash and I'll test it out if you want.
V
Funy VJ, that you mention the X51v, because I got hold of one once and tried Flash Apps with Videos on them. It turned out that despite its graphic chip, the X51v was very slow. Barelly usable, in fact. This was confirmed by the graphic benchmarks from PPC review sites.
I have a very basic Flash Movie that I run on devices to compare their performances.
http://brunorousseau.free.fr/bench.zip
Right-click "Save Target as"
Eventhough it is not very sofisticated, it is a real life test.
So, this is a rather large video file of exactly 2 minutes and 3 secondes. I made it, so Flash is obliged to play every single frame of the movie without skipping any and obviously, this takes more time on certain systems than others. So here are a few benches.
- 2 min 12 secs on a 3GHZ intel P4 PC
- 3 min 08 secs On a 520MHZ HP H2490 with WM5
- 3 min 26 secs on a 624MHZ AXIM X30 with WM2003SE
- 4 min 24 secs on a 416MHZ AXIM X51 with WM5
As you can see, the HP is working really well compared to the Axim X30, eventhough the AXIM has a 624MHZ processor and uses WM2003SE which is supposed to be faster than WM5.
I would be very interested to know the benchmark on the Universal without VJSIHAYA and then with it.
Thanks VJ
minimac: send me the flash over, and a link to, or the flashplayer used, and I'll give it a go in VJSihaya. Does screen size make a difference you think?
Yup, 51v is a beauty internally, but obviously there are only about 3 apps that use the hardware acceleration. But those three, wow. Made my mouth water to see them. Reminds me of kkrieger.
V
Hi VJ,
Either you live in New Zealand, or you are working late like me.
I changed the link, so now it works.
Try it again.
The app contains the Flash Player installer, so just follow the steps.
I'm dying to know how well it performs.
I am going to bed now.
Today was a 16 hours working day.
Time to get some sleep.
I'll see your post tomorrow
Thank you again VJ
I'm a very very late sleeper. Only way I can get any programming done!
Installing now.
V
Same here vijay. Although I'm falling asleep at my desk right now...
minimac: interesting results. I didn't use all of VJSihaya, just a simple non skinned VJSihaya to capture the benchmarker. I hope I did this right, but using a 320x240 window, I got 2mins 30 seconds on a landscape normal clocked Universal. It runs very smoothly the smaller you resize obviously, and at fullscreen it's horrible! But 320x240, seemed ok...
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
V
PS time for bed for everyone, surely!
4h45 in the morning and still univers...ing !
Thank you Vijay for your time. I am really impressed.
Now, 2'30" is an impressive achievment. I need to get hold of this VJSihaya software and get a Universal ASAP.
How do I get your software VJ ?
Question: When you mention "using a 320x240 window", does this means that the actual movie was showing up in 1/4 of the screen (VGA mode), or you managed to make it run on a full screen at 320x240 (QVGA) ?
How did it perform without VJSihaya ?
If there is no way to play it full screen at normal speed, would you be able to alter the driver Vijay ?
I tried before to change the registry values of the screen on a HP Hx4700, but it wouldn't work. I am not a real programmer, so I did not want to investigate further, but this whole performance issue is really getting me frustrated as I cannot take full advantage of these new devices.
Really, we need to make something that works.
Thank you again Vijay for your time to answer my questions.
Minimac, without VJSihaya, the flash player obviously tries to fill the whole screen, and is hideous, you can see every frame render. This took 6mins 30 seconds!
Obviously as you know, the Uni is VGA, so when I'm playing it at VGA, as you can see in the screenshot, it's taking up one quarter of the screen. As I said, you can actively resize the player with VJSihaya, so I can choose any screen size. As I go smaller, it plays smoother.
I have just retested it, because I was worried that perhaps I'd gone digitally dyslexic and miscounted, but 2 mins 32 seconds on second go. It's worth noting this is without being on power, since I believe that the Uni only runs at it's full speed when on power or overclocked.
VJSihaya is unforunately unreleased, and is likely to stay that way for quite a while due to the development still to go into it. Remember, VJSihaya is basically a hack I'm making to re-implement windows into the OS, to drag windows around, resize them etc. This isn't at a driver level!
However, you could make a new screen driver if you wish, but I think, as discussed above, that displaying QVGA on a VGA screen will always either require pixel doubling or running in a quarter (VGA) screen. I believe that VJSihaya and related techniques are only likely to be a convenient hack, rather than a solution, since you will be running your flash in a quarter screen (as in the screenshot!). However, if this is what you need, i can probably knock together a stand alone hack to achieve this (giving you selectable sizes for the flash player).
I would imagine that the flash player already provides some capability to specify playback size? If not, I'm sure you can knock together a few lines of html to play the flash in a webpage, and you can of course specify the player's size there. This may be the most convenient solution, although obviously there you're carrying the overhead of a browser as well.
Unfortunately I'm not a real programmer either, so developing a driver etc is not really my field. But as I said above, I think running QVGA on VGA hardware is always going to either require pixel doubling, or running at a quarter of the screen, as in my screenshot. I'm not in a position to test benchmark on the Uni at QVGA, since I don't like switching between VGA <> QVGA, because it's so hard to get the VGA hack right in the first place!
Can someone else please play the benchmark app at QVGA, on a landscape non charging Uni?
Minimac - why do you want a Uni if you know that the VGA/QVGA implementation is slow?
What exactly did you do to your Toshiba to get back true QVGA? That would be interesting to see, and might be a good solution if we can get it to work on WM5.
V
I want a universal because it is gorgeous, and because it is very business orientated.
It also has a 3.6" screen, slightly larger than the 3.5" screens you find anywhere else.
When you say "standalone" hack, does this means that by pressing an .exe icon in the program menu under the factory QVGA mode, I could start VJSihaya and run my Flash App resized into 640x480, so it would actually be transparent to the user who would beleive this is a full screen app ? But then, running at 640x480, like you said, I would get back to slow motion mode.
Please let me know because I'm interested in a hack that could play my Flash Apps at normal speed in full screen.
minimac: Hmm, that's the big problem of course.
No, I don't know how you're going to play fullscreen at 640x480 smoothly. It's terrible right now. Has anyone else benchmarked at QVGA yet?
You might want to write to Nydiot and a couple of others. On Wm2003 they had software to change resolution on the fly. I don't know if they're updating to Wm5, but it'd be useful to you.
PM or post about what you did to your Tosh to get QVGA and we'll see why it's not possible for WM5.
Re Uni - have you seen the new Acer? Man, I'd sell my body to get one of those. I'd have to sell it many times I'd imagine.
V
Well, the story on the e800 is really specific. This was the first ever PPC to sport a VGA screen. At the time (WM2003), the OS did not support such resolutions, so Toshiba developped an application that made the switch. Unfortunetely, you found yourself with more or less 2 Pocket PC in one as the VGA mode did not actually display your today screen and preferences as they were in QVGA. However, when you reversed back to QVGA, you got a normal PPC. Not the fastest, but good enough.
So then came SE_VGA. This was an app that let you switch very easilly (just a soft reset at each switch) between the 3 modes (VGA, QVGA and FalseQVGA).
Finally came WM2003SE that supported the VGA screens. Toshiba released its e830, a PXA270 520MHZ device with the same FalseQVGA/FalseVGA crap mode from Microsoft used in all the other new VGA devices.
To make matters worst, SE_VGA does not allow on these devices the "reverse back to real QVGA" mode it had in the previous OS.
As for the new Acer, I agree, it is gorgeous, but for me, the same problem remains.
So I am stuck.
Who is Nydiot ?
Do you think I should start a new post on "Could someone get me a hack to reverse to real QVGA ?"
Thanks Vijay again
Sorry, I never get their name correct:
http://www.nyditot.com/NVDPage.asp
You can try posting again, or hopefully anyone reading this thread will follow, yes, you need to get proper QVGA back.
You might find it useful to read this article:
http://pocketpcmag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18237
I'll keep experimenting.
V
minimac: I've had a thought. You might want to investigate the hires_aware hack. Not sure if it will have any effect, but it might.
V
What is that ?
Related
Like a lot of people here I had been waiting rather impatiently for the real VGA hack for my Jasjar. Now that it's here and I've been using it for a week or so, I'm definitely beginning to see why MS didn't make this an option from the beginning, and I'm also beginning to wonder how much it's really worth.
Real VGA has two big benefits for me... it allows me to shrink the size of the bars on the top and bottom of the screen so I get more usable screen space, and it allows Pocket IE to run without it's stupid pixel doubling 'feature'... that's a big one for me.
Unfortunately it's got a lot of disadvangages too... it makes the bars on the top and bottom of the screen so small that they're difficult to use normally, and all but impossible to use while driving. Like I said above, making them smaller would be an advantage, but it's simply way too small. A lot of applications don't work well in real VGA mode... including the phone dialer, the calculator and others. The font size can't be changed for a lot of things... the start bar, the caller ID info screen, and others. This makes a lot of the information displayed quite difficult to read... again, especially while in a car.
As I've been thinking about it more and more, I realized that the only thing that I really need is for PocketIE to work without pixel doubling... then I'd be quite happy in non-VGA mode. While I doubt that will ever happen hopefully we'll get some third party browsers that will work nicely in non-VGA mode. Until then I think I'm going to be using non-vga most of the time and I'll just switch to VGA mode when I need to do a lot of browsing.
Anyone have any other thoughts on this?
Brett
I think that makes sense. We need dynamically switching VGA really. For day to day use, the thumb is just too fat for VGA. It's barely ok to use for QVGA driving/walking etc.
But for browsing, VGA is great. But it's too much and too tiring all the time I think.
V
yea...we need a button like the screen rotate button that lets us change the res whenever we want
I think I would also agree. There are only two advantages to using the o2vga fix. 1) The only app that it improves is the browser, But as Brett stated, in the car it is too small. It works well for some sites very well and others it is too small. 2) the best advantage is that after I applied o2vga, ms voice command now shows the contact info when i say show "contact".
I also am beta testing the wm5 thunderhawk browser. It allows 640 x 480 and 800 x 600, and 640 x 320(?). The font that is used in thunderhawk is hard to read and the app is very slow. Due to the slow speed and font, I'm not sure the thunderhawk browser on wm5 universal is worth it. ALL in all, the original IE browser with zoom to small or medium seem to look the best.
Brett: Couldn't agree more. It was great to see what the device can do, and how the screen really is, tiny! But in truth, the eyestrain was no joke, and finger operation became impossible. I did a lot of toggling between the two, and ultimately decided that what I was is the standard resolution, but with some hacks for:
- Smaller scroll bars (VJ mentions this somewhere)
- Shrunk edge bits in XL
- Smaller edges for Terminal Services (altho central area surprisingly gives same res)
- and of course a hack for PIE.
Now, surely the latter is manageable? It's simply how IE is rendering. Perhaps MS will fix this soon, or maybe someone can intercept the rendering engine. I even don't care if my images lose every second pixel in order to come to the right size at half the res.
Real time Resolution Switching
See the attached link to a bit of software, which once released for WM5 may solve the VGA issue. It allows switching between resolutions on the fly.
I tried it on my Blue Angel, and it worked great, albeit a little unstable.
Note the site says they've been working on WM5 compatibility since Feb, so this may be wishful thinking.
http://www.nyditot.com/Products.asp
It's certainly not ideal, but besides web browsing I would add that word processing is nicer in VGA. Fortunately I don't have to do that much, but when I did need to for a meeting, I appreciated the VGA. With the keyboard and VGA, the term Pocket PC is more than just wishful thinking.
It's certainly not ideal, but besides web browsing I would add that word processing is nicer in VGA. Fortunately I don't have to do that much, but when I did need to for a meeting, I appreciated the VGA. With the keyboard and VGA, the term Pocket PC is more than just wishful thinking.
I agree it is to much hassle to work smoothly in everyday conditions, personally I think its down to programmers to make font options more accessable, take the new version of pocket breeze, in qvga or vga it stays the same size on screen, and gives the user total control over all font sizes.
This is the sort of programming we need to utilise such a great display!!!
lol
kinda bull---- lol
i remember when whe had 640 resolution on the pc.. everyone hated it when we started to use 800 res.. and lets not speak about 1024 haha..
i see loads of people using 1600 res nowedays.. higher res means better image quality!!
It also means better games better everything. So 640 res on the exec is SUPER, we only need adjust (like the pc) font size and get larger better resolution icons for those people who like to nagg (just like on real pc's)
VGA resolution is the future, and i am sure we get 800 res soon also and maybe even higher.. better looking programs etc etc..
and if your fingers are to thick for dialpad then you must have problems with any normal gsm LMAO
Just get a skin where the ok button close button are larger and nicer..
but that is just my penny worth :twisted:
Hi all,
I'm having problems getting any program to run in true VGA mode. I have read every article on SE VGA and true VGA and forced VGA but I think I'm still missing something. Either I don't understand what forced VGA really does or I just cannot get it to work. From what I understand is that the HTC Universal runs standard in se VGA mode which does the pixel doubling so you still get the same amount of space but it looks alot sharper. Now you also have true VGA mode which lets you run everything on your Universal in VGA mode without pixel doubling which means you have lots of space but everything looks very small. For this you have to use SE VGA or OzVGA. Now there is also a third mode which is Forced VGA and if I understand correctly it let's you get the best of both worlds cause it allows you to run in normal mode (se VGA with pixel doubling) but you can force some programs to run in true VGA mode.
Well I tried getting some programs to run in the third mode (forced VGA) with Tweaks2k2.Net and the Force High Resolution v1.60 tool from Mad Programmer but neither one works or I'm not doing something right.
If I use forced VGA mode am I not suppose to see the programs run in true 640 by 480 at 96 DPI without pixel doubling while the rest of the system runs on normal se VGA mode with pixel doubling?
I really hope someone can help me out here and explain this to me or just send me in the right direction.
omnichaos,
I think your description sounds correct. Have a look here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?p=206523#206523
This pic best describes the ideal hack - QVGA double pixeled UI, but with VGA apps.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Technically it's perfectly possible with all apps, if they've been written correctly. However, I've only ever seen it done with NetFront. I'm sure more examples exist.
V
Yes that is exactly what I'm looking for.
So the program has to be written a certain way for us to be able to see it like that?
I thought that this could also be achieved with the Forced VGA hack.
I guess not then?
I wonder why developers don't make their programs this way.
Why couldn't they give you the option of choosing in what resolution a user might want to run the program in.
It's likely to become more common once VGA devices start becoming more established. Basically, PIE is written to ALWAYS pixel double. Most other apps could be forced, but I've not really looked into it. I always and only run in VGA on my universal. But I use a magician as my phone, Uni is just for developing!
V
Ah I see.
You say you use universal only for developing. Now if you were to use it all the time as your main phone, would you still always run in true VGA?
Btw, VJSihaya looks very nice. I will be keeping my eye on it.
Is VJSihaya kind of like explorer.exe on WinXP which runs in VGA and in it you can run other programs or do you plan to make it a today screen replacement. I would rather not use it as a today screen replacement though. I think it would be much better if it runs separately from today screen because then you would still be able to have QVGA today screen and use your other programs in VGA or QVGA if you wanted to.
if you were to use it all the time as your main phone, would you still always run in true VGA?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Depends on how it's set up. My Magician is my main phone, and I barely use it as a phone. I use calendar, contacts, ebooks etc.
On the Uni, I can set it up at VGA to be comfortable for most things, but this semi-VGA idea would be best. At VGA, you can set up large scrollbars, chunky fonts etc and have it set well for the hand. But I use my Uni right in front of my face most of the time, again, ebooks, watching "Frasier" in bed etc. So for that kind of stuff, VGA is fine. However, VGA all the time for "normal" use, and I'm sure you'll go blind.
Semi - VGA is clearly possible, the Netfront example shows it, and all it requires is for programmers to take it into consideration when programming. I'm sure it will become standard in time as an option.
VJSihaya will be like a "shell" replacement. Hopefully, it can "be" your Today screen, but it's not intended as a replacement for your Today screen, although if you look at the screenshots, it can contain your Today screen anyway. I've recently implemented Today screen functionality directly, so you don't need Today at all, but I don't advise it. It's not a replacement, just an alternative.
VJSihaya doesn't really have a "function". Most people intend their PDAs to be handheld: can you use it with a finger? VJSihaya is best at VGA resolution, and basically just makes good use of the extra space, but will tie you to the stylus quite a lot (although in time, there's no reason why you couldn't make a chunky finger powered skin. The Vista skin is quite finger friendly already). You can run an app in a QVGA size screen in VJSihaya - you can see an example of a QVGA sized app running unskinned in VJSihaya here.
VJSihaya won't pixel double it to fill a VGA screen. It will merely let you run a QVGA app at QVGA size on a VGA screen. The screenshot at the above link hopefully explains better!
V
Well thx for taking the time to explain this.
If I'm not mistaken Terminal Services also runs in Semi VGA.
Do you think VJSihaya will support Semi-VGA sometime in the future?
That would be pretty cool.
You could then have everything run in QVGA pixel doubling mode and only VJSihaya run in VGA. And then every program you run inside VJSihaya could either run in a QVGA window (as shown in some of the screenshots) or you could maximize the program and have it run in VGA. All this without having to softreset everytime.
VJSihaya windowed apps dynamically resize to fill their window, generally and depending on the app (eg for now, in the Vista screenshot, gsfinder isn't. But the other apps all are). But they don't do any kind of pixel doubling etc. Which apps were you thinking of as running in QVGA?
Ok, I'll clarify.
VJSihaya in the screenshots is running at 640x480.
If the Benchmark screenshot linked above, Flash is running at 320x240 - QVGA size, and takes 1/4 of the screen. That's VJSihaya's raison d'etre, to run apps windowed in that manner. Those apps can be dynamically resized, so eg the calendar can run in a small window (eg 150x150), or be enlarged to fill a whole 640x480 as required.
Oh. I think I just de-clarified myself! Are you're suggesting that the system is run at normal QVGA dpi, but make VJSihaya VGA native, so apps can run in the QVGA system pixel doubled, or otherwise live inside VJSihaya as resizable, potentially VGA windows? Even I barely understand that, but I think I know what I mean. I think. I'll try it out if I can.
V
Yes this is all getting a little bit confusing :lol: but I think you got what I meant in you last phrases.
Are you're suggesting that the system is run at normal QVGA dpi, but make VJSihaya VGA native, so apps can run in the QVGA system pixel doubled, or otherwise live inside VJSihaya as resizable, potentially VGA windows? Even I barely understand that, but I think I know what I mean. I think. I'll try it out if I can.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes this is what I'm suggesting.
So to clarify.
You use your uni in normal QVGA pixel doubling mode.
You then use VJSihaya which runs in VGA 640 x 480 non pixel doubling mode (as it would run if you use OzVGA).
Then every program that you run inside VJSihaya would run in a windowed QVGA NON pixel doubling mode (as seen in your screenshots).
And since the programs inside VJSihaya already run without pixel doubling but in a QVGA window you would just maximize them to make them run fullscreen in VGA.
Pffewww..... :shock: :lol:
I don't know if this is feasible but it would be very cool since you don't have to use OzVGA anymore and softreset if you wanted to run an app in true VGA and then have to softreset back to use your uni in normal mode for everything else.
Yes, exactly what I thought I was thinking :shock:
I really don't know, I'll try to check out VJSihaya in a QVGA environment ASAP. It's not currently expressly hi res aware, because I always run in a hi res environment, but I'll incorporate the settings. I'm not optimistic, but it'd be interesting to see what happens...
V
I hope that you can get this to work. 8)
And if you do I would really like to know about it.
It doesn't have to be in this post but if you could mention it somewhere as a feature, maybe on your own site or a new post here at xda-devs.
Somewhere where I can check back and see if you managed to get it working. I really don't want to be one of those guys that keeps asking "when is it going to be implemented". :roll: I know that can be quite irritating.
And you don't have to feel pressured into doing this either. All of this was just an idea/request. I know you code in your free time.
Keep up the good work...
No problem. I was reading a bit more on hires_aware yesterday, and it would be a wonderful combination - general OS in QVGA, but apps running in VGA if required. But, I don't know if it can work, it would be magic - can the system jump from pixel doubling to hires_aware like this? I don't know, but I'll try it this weekend I hope.
V
vijay555 - for me that would be great - OS in QVGA and switching into VGA on the fly for IE. I am new to WM5 and can find no way of doing this (I used the .MUI hack in 2003SE on an iPAQ 4700 which was ideal). All I need (or want) is IE in VGA - I assume I'm reading this forum right and currently IE in VGA and everything else in QVGA is not sussed yet ?
Waltzing Mathilda: this is all absolutely hypothetical right now. I'll give it a go shortly though (once I stop posting!). However, it's likely PIE will always have to be in VGA for VGA.
msdn
Internet Explorer and HTML Controls
HTML layouts are an exception to the rule that all pixel coordinates should be scaled. On Windows Mobile-based Pocket PCs, Internet Explorer interprets pixel coordinates in HTML specifically as 96-DPI pixels. Although it is always best to use relative coordinates in HTML (defining a table column as 50% of the table width, for example), if you are currently using pixel metrics, they will continue to produce the same layout at higher DPI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
However, it should be relatively easy to make a new browser based on the IE web browser control, which can be hires aware.
V
Hmm, bad news
Although you can see that VJSihaya is running in VGA, the native apps are still being run native QVGA.
Now, what this means: well, I think there is another way. It would require quite a significant hack, which I don't think is feasible, but I'm going to have to do part of it for VJSihaya anyway, so at some point I'll try investigate this hack as well. This would require making VJSihaya trick the OS into selectively using pixel doubling, and on other occassions not... not sure if it can happen... but if and when, it'll be quite a while until I can put that particular hack in place.
V
Guys, this might be obvious, but has anyone tried resource hacking PIE to include the Hi_res_aware resource?
I just tried, but unfortunately my rom ripped files won't allow me to edit the resources (a by-product of rom ripping?) and mamaich's rom tools haven't created contiguous files, just directories of files like S000 etc
Anyway, if we can get the files, we need to have a look at
browser.dll
browsres.192.dll
browsres.96.dll
browsres.dll
compime.dll
iexplore.exe
shlwapi.dll
webview.dll
V
That really is too bad. Maybe it can be done the way you suggested. Will keep my fingers crossed.
vijay555 said:
omnichaos,
I think your description sounds correct. Have a look here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?p=206523#206523
This pic best describes the ideal hack - QVGA double pixeled UI, but with VGA apps.
Technically it's perfectly possible with all apps, if they've been written correctly. However, I've only ever seen it done with NetFront. I'm sure more examples exist.
Man...how did u manage to RUN NF 3.1 on yr Uni.....
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hdubli: that's not my pic, if you follow the source of the image back you'll see the guy who posted the info. He explains how he hacked it like that. I think it just works... but I've never touched NF, so you'll have to take his word for it
V
Thread being locked
--------------------------
Progress on this project has almost completely stalled and further progress has been near impossible over the chatter from non developers. I do not wish to go much further into this, but if there is any further development it will be through other communications systems other than forum.xda-developers.com and releases will not be available to non developers untill code is complete.
Leaving this thread open is waste of all of the developers involveds time. if you have the cab and need any answers they ARE within this thread.
MOD EDIT: For historical Purposes I have edit this thread to preserve it's historical context.
THERE ARE SOME IMPORTANT FACTS IN THIS FIRST THREAD - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU ASK QUESTIONS
POWER DOWN DOES NOT WORK while TF3d IS LOADED. There is no fix for this, just a work around. read the rest of this first post for answers
SOFTWARE DRIVERS CAUSE WHITE SQUARES - this is due to the lack of ATI texture support - there is no fix, its by design
CONFIRMED WORKING DEVICES:
KS20, POLARIS, NIKE, KAISER, Imate ultimate 8502.
Things you need to know before you continue:
--------------------------------------------------
You need WORKING OpenGL ES drivers. these can be software or hardware based, hardware being a lot faster. Omnia3D drivers WILL NOT HELP since they are Direct3D not OpenGL.
Software Drivers (best for old devices but cause white squares):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121298&d=1223892257 (not the best - looking for better - These drivers will give you functionality but not perfect rendering)
Kaiser/Polaris/Nike Drivers:
http://www.htcclassaction.org/driverprogress.php#update_20081009_1
IT IS NOT FINISHED - it is not ready for a day to day phone. dont expect to be able to use your phone properly while it is enabled. Soft resets will be needed often while it is enabled. Use the Today/Items control panel to disable it when you are not testing.
Its CPU & resource intensive. Its got high system specs, higher than most pre-kaiser era phone can handle easily, takes an age to install or uninstall and will slow most phones down to a crawl. It also is a huge battery drain and due to the power bugs its almost impossible to even charge the phone while its enabled.
If you find your phone a bit sluggish without TF3D, its probably not worth installing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update 12: Direct from Chainfire:
=========================
Third release
Here's the third public release. This is pretty much a maintenance release, wrapping some stuff up, nothing really new. See the changelog.
Changelog
- Graphics Fixed dotted line image (white dot top-left of the text on the home tab) (EDIT: Read fixed == removed!)
- Graphics Fixed incorrectly scaled globe on the internet tab (looks much better now )
- ToggleManila Fixed the shortcut for non-English devices
- CAB Broke the CAB into two: base files in English-US and additional language pack. This because the non-english language files take about 3 MB of storage space, but more importantly, are spread out over 484 files (which is almost half of all manila files). This split will make (un)installation much faster as well as have less impact on your phone's performance when not running TF3D (and it's not cooked in). If you are not running an English / US / WWE ROM and still want your language, get the language pack as well. The base CAB, installed, is now 8 MB, from 17 MB originally.
Download
*download removed*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
issues and work arounds
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White squares: Images appearing as white squares is due to non support of ATC textures - this can be caused by a non ATI graphics driver - either an nvidia one (intel used ati i beleive) or software based ones. This is an IP issue more than anything else, and not something that we as developers can easily fix. since the majority of HTC devices either have no 3d or ATI based 3d and this app requires 3d, we will spend our time on ATI based 3d. so the fix for white squares? unfortuantly, the most likely is new device! if you are lucky and youre device isnt very old, u MAY get new drivers - but this is NOT the thread for discussing it
+ Thread being locked
--------------------------
- POWER DOWN ISSUES: the current HTC-CA drivers for pretty much all devices have an issue with powering down. TF3D is one app that is effected by this issue, but because of its always on-ness - is more visibile than other apps - which tend to be 3d games - which the device doesnt sleep on. the only fix for this is to have TF3D unloaded when u want to sleep. this is not elegant but until this issue is resolved (and its proving to be a tricky one) it is the only solution. To make life easier, there is an app included in the TF3D cab called 'togglemanila' - this can be bound to a hardware button in control panel. this means u have to press two buttons to power down instead of the usual one (and its also worth disabling power saving) - but thats the cost of using beta applications and beta drivers.
+ Progress on this project has almost completely stalled and further progress has been near impossible over the chatter from non developers. I do not wish to go much further into this, but if there is any further development it will be through other communications systems other than forum.xda-developers.com and releases will not be available to non developers untill code is complete.
- Broken images tab or broken music tab: ensure you have diamond album and diamond audio manager installed.
+ Leaving this thread open is waste of all of the developers involveds time. if you have the cab and need any answers they ARE within this thread.
I'm willing to help with the xml coding.
It would be nice to have 3D working like 2D.
before pursuing further with the project, a good question may be, how does this differ from Manilla2D? are the differences big enough?
nuke1 said:
before pursuing further with the project, a good question may be, how does this differ from Manilla2D? are the differences big enough?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's see.
Off the top of my head, vertical scrolling, full weather animations, animated digital clock, ability to create more tabs (they have for the VGA version anyway), animated people tab, etc.
It's worth it.
blazingwolf said:
Let's see.
Off the top of my head, vertical scrolling, full weather animations, animated digital clock, ability to create more tabs (they have for the VGA version anyway), animated people tab, etc.
It's worth it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems 3d has that arrow on the home screen that makes the clock smaller and shows at least two up coming appointments, which is better then one.
It may also open the ability to change this entirely which doesn't yet seem possible on 2d.
I just can't use something that doesn't show vmail count, or more then one appointment. Along with the whole restarting...
blazingwolf said:
Let's see.
Off the top of my head, vertical scrolling, full weather animations, animated digital clock, ability to create more tabs (they have for the VGA version anyway), animated people tab, etc.
It's worth it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Animated envelope too? Also this launch program would be good. I would like to help too
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CraZyLiLbOy said:
Animated envelope too? Also this launch program would be good. I would like to help too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure that has anything to do with TF3D. I believe it is a separate program.
blazingwolf said:
Not sure that has anything to do with TF3D. I believe it is a separate program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course it does. That launch program popups when you touch the "All Program" in the programs tab
CraZyLiLbOy said:
Of course it does. That launch program popups when you touch the "All Program" in the programs tab
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh, missed that.
brilliant - glad to see weve got some people as keen as myself.
the first thing we need to do is chose a base to work on. now the beta versions run already. very nicely too... but they arent finished version - so thats probably a no go. the diamond version installs but refuses to run - and we havent sussed out why yet. that really should be our first port of call. it would be good if someone out there has an older phone, pre-diamond - that has proper 3d support and wm6.1 - that could try the diamond cabs - and report on how far manila gets. Im not sure off the top of my head what a good device would be. the main issue at the moment is that the HTCCA drivers are not full implimentations - so the reason it doesnt start could be related to that amongst many other things - to scrub that one off the list would be a good start.
Unfortunately, that would not be my phone.
blazingwolf said:
Unfortunately, that would not be my phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually...thinking about it - thats almost any phone - for a 3d implimentation to be full doesnt need to be hardware - the openglcs_es.dll or whatever it was from the early manila 3d working betas is a fairly complete 3d implimentation - we should start by using that.
Just a suggestion,
I think that Manila3D has device limitation you should remove this first, to make it work on other VGA devices like Athena and Universal, after that you may start editing resources and scripts to make it qvga compatible
xplode said:
Just a suggestion,
I think that Manila3D has device limitation you should remove this first, to make it work on other VGA devices like Athena and Universal, after that you may start editing resources and scripts to make it qvga compatible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree..better try to make VGA version first and if it is possible to run on other devices already..QVGA version can be start after that..will be more easier
I show my full support for this project as I will use this in my ROM all the time if it gets completely....2D is nothing like 3D which I really want
xplode said:
Just a suggestion,
I think that Manila3D has device limitation you should remove this first, to make it work on other VGA devices like Athena and Universal, after that you may start editing resources and scripts to make it qvga compatible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is this not exactly what i wrote in the first post?
we need to get it to run first - that could be a device limitation or it could simply be a dependancy issue. to really find out, some form of debugging tool would be helpful - i know what kinda tool id like - something like snoopdos from my amiga days - something that shows every dll an app tries to load - and which are succesful - this would prove or disprove the dependancy issue.
there are rumours of manila.exe looking at the nk.rom files - this maybe to check device or it maybe to load an embedded dll or similar.
something that might help with this.......
only rumour so far i believe, but the Verizon version of the diamond has the exact same specs as the htc touch (vogue, 400mhz, etc). sooooo i believe this will be possible for slower devices. of course IF that is true and it comes out, then it should be fairly easy to port to older VGA devices (as already stated), then work on QVGA.
the only thing this will do is make it easier to port, if it is in fact true.
jakub_w said:
something that might help with this.......
only rumour so far i believe, but the Verizon version of the diamond has the exact same specs as the htc touch (vogue, 400mhz, etc). sooooo i believe this will be possible for slower devices. of course IF that is true and it comes out, then it should be fairly easy to port to older VGA devices (as already stated), then work on QVGA.
the only thing this will do is make it easier to port, if it is in fact true.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be rumor and innuendo. There is also talk that the Diamond for Verizon will be exactly like the Sprint version.
i love you djboo
now that herg has abandoned us, we must take matters into our own hands.
I'll be glad to help any way i can
let's get this thing working
blazingwolf said:
That would be rumor and innuendo. There is also talk that the Diamond for Verizon will be exactly like the Sprint version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whenever Verizon Diamond does come out, which is either 09 or 10....then it will easily be ported, now...to port it from Sprint Diamond, it will need the drivers and a reduced size of the manilla in order to work, that means porting everything
Hello guys, you must have meet me in other thread such as "OMG!!! i got quake 3 ce running on my Diamond !" and others-alike, so with no further delay i present you another hardware accelerated 3D FPS:
Cube 2005
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(actual screenshots from my 1.93 stock Diamond ROM)
Installation procedures:
1- download Cube PPC from here: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/cube/cube_2004_05_22_pocketpc_bin_xscale_opengl_es.zip
2- download libgles_cl.zip from here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=415523 and extract the libgles_cl.dll wrapper to \Windows
3- make sure you enable TouchFlo (yes, it must be activated!)
Ain't got much time to test it, but you can read a more through review here: http://www.mobilitysite.com/boards/games/125311-all-your-cube-3d-questions-answered.html
Also many thanks to NuShrike who come up recently with the CL wrapper, whom without it, it would be impossible to have this running on our Diamonds (and probably on Raphael's too)
I've made a video and uploaded it to youtube, check it out (sorry about the non-focused image, my HP cam can't do better)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc3b9_CT2bw
iRiKi said:
Also many thanks to NuShrike who come up recently with the CL wrapper, whom without it, it would be impossible to have this running on our Diamonds (and probably on Raphael's too)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, should run on the Kaiser too.
Does look better than your Heretic demo... I wonder why some works and some doesn't.
Never heard of this game before. Will have to look into this.
Thanks a lot.
Can´t extract, "File Corrupted or dammaged"
Hmm, good test of graphics once again. TF3D goes to Tap here to launch TouchFlo screen, and doesn't come out of it until a softreset.
EDIT: Ok, it seems Flip It (screen auto rotate utility) caused the glitch of TouchFlo.
However I can still run Cube with or without TouchFlo at same speeds, with same rendering and same FPS. Cube does, however give off different colours when you move around in the game.
Strange, your rendering in the youtube clip is near enough perfect, at least in comparison to mine.
I cant start the game with Cube.exe.. comes a error saying it cant be opened..
The ".DLL" file is suppose to go "Internmemory > Windows" or "/" > Windows"
Menu?
Ok ! seems to run ok on my touch diamond. but how do i change button config and access ingame menus?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ShCi7Jh61p0
touch diamond, touch flow on
is that the same file that makes cod2 run better as well?
Libgles_cl.dll is a fairly new discovery, it's libgles_cm.dll (the one used by CoD2) you're confusing it with.
gurkburk92 said:
I cant start the game with Cube.exe.. comes a error saying it cant be opened..
The ".DLL" file is suppose to go "Internmemory > Windows" or "/" > Windows"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Trying again..
You know.. you would think somebody would write a BT keyboard and mouse driver so you guys can play these FPS naturally.
iRiKi why don't you tell us how unplayable is, especially when playing singleplayer mode (with bots)?
About 2-5 FPS when bots are near you. So totally unplayable.
+ textures are waxed (when moving, you can see through them or gets black)
Conclusion: no joy
this is an open.-source freeby from 2004 that never was updated, besides this game isn't even supposed to run on htc's, just axims, the funny part is recently someone came with a libgles_cl renderer which allowed us to actually run the game. it has some rendered bugs (black areas) which hopefully will help developers improving the wrapper.
now DSF, what have YOU done for the community (besides whinning) ?
THPS2, Quake 3 which also uses OpenGL ES CL/CM have low FPS. I really don't want to start again and again to make comparison between an old 2005 device and those HTC+Qualcomm devices
Okay... this will go offtopic but I have to write this.
With all those posts I actually help. I wish I could read about the performance of touch pro BEFORE buying it. But actually haven't found information about this, so I thought to myself, at least HTC has succeeded to bring good graphics performance. But.. that is false.
Reading your first post, one may think that this game is running good or very good. You haven't said anything about poor low frame rate, it's totally unplayable with bots. If we hide these "details" do you think we can resolve anything?
I will continue to post the truth about touch pro/diamond so :
1) people will know that there are very good alternatives to HTC+Qualcomm (eg: Omnia+Marvell)
2) HTC will try to improve/work on this area (though I don't think this will be happen . see the past htc class auction + the costumer interaction experience is extremely poor, they don't admit that those device have MULTIPLE problems, not only related to graphics but also to GPS, sound, drain, etc etc)
This should be announced to a large scale.
.. The problem is that many persons thanks their self with all those poor thingy... or they start to compromise.
- gps has lag, so what? at least I have GPS
- sound breaks? it's not an ipod, come on!
- crappy speackerphone/earpice? umm.. nothing is perfect
- sluggish UI experience? eeh.. it's a WM
- poor OpenGL performance? so what? at least it has hardware acceleration
- battery drains quickly? man it has a VGA screen and this beauty is fully packed! (even if you use one function at a time)
- ETC ETC
Some of us just find apologies for all these issues. Why? I mean WHY? We paid for every feature in the phone and it's not normal to perform (below) mediocre.. Another counter-replies for the real/palpable issues from *some* HTC fanboys are "get an iphone". This conception is so wrong.. Maybe they are thinking that are superior to the others because they use the PPC for business purpose lol. They said it like they want WM to be sluggish when coming to entertainment. WM is more than mail, internet, office dudes. It's a portable pocket PC. A PC in your pocket.
Let's try to be realistic. HTC ads new features and take n steps back in terms of functions quality. This is not normal, technology evolves, prices get low, more performance, device pieces become more reliable, devices become compact, etc etc... Unfortunately HTC+Qualcomm is not our case.. they add cheap features at a high price.
BTW iRiKi, I do appreciate your work, but we must say the WHOLE story.
im not a fanboy. i already said on other threads this is the last qualcomm device i'll ever buy. but i have another pda, the Qtek S100 (known as Magician) and i can compare the diamond with the magician, and tbh it's not as bad as ppl paint. the magician battery doesn't last 2 days as the diamond, and it's 1300 mah vs 900. the performance on cod2 software is awfull, and it has to draws 4 times less pixels than the diamond. iGo is also slow on the magician.
about the gps/sound/battery rants. sorry but you're offtopic here, wanna flame htc do it elsewhere
and yes, ill say it again, to clear your doubts as htc fanboy: the diamond was the first, and also the last qualcomm device i'll ever buy.
my sister wanted a new cell, and was unsure about 3 devices: the HD, the iPhone 3G and the Nokia N96. the only advice i gave was: dont buy the htc and choose from the other 2 cells. and that's what she did
But I haven't called you a fanboy.. I was talking about the users with "get an iphone" recomandations...
Well this are little offtopic but it are a good thing that iriki give us this tips about the 3d hw on div games that will bring ppl even closer too the perfect driver and on my touch pro il get around 12-15 fps in this game but yes it have gfx bugs but what so? atleast it prove that we can run in 3d hw! And maybe in the future will we even get better drivers for this devices. Still this is alot closer to perfect games in 3d hw on the htc phones and most ppl should know that this devices can do alot more if we just get the right driver..hopefully in the future! i had a nokia n95 before this phone and i can say i dont regret at all when i did buy this phone for sure and for a note the gps did lag also in n95..on my touch pro i havent seen any lag in garmin gps so far maybe on the diamond it are just to wait for better rom that fix alot bugs for me i use elite rom on my touch pro and can say the phone are damn fast
Iriki, I don't think DSF is being critical of you. I think he just loathes HTC for letting down its consumers once again, and so he's complaining that graphics still don't seem to be at an optimum.
Of course, you are looking at it in a more positive light, which is good.
I can however see where DSF is coming from. If we become too complacent/relaxed with HTC then they will keep getting away with it, like they did with the Kaiser and now Diamond. HTC should know that its customers want a driver update, that fully utilises the advertised Qualcomm/ATI Imageon 64MB graphics chip.
DSF said:
+ textures are waxed (when moving, you can see through them or gets black)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's probably some things that need to be done in the wrapper that isn't being done at all right now. The Axim probably supported texture image formats the ATI doesn't, so have to write some code to convert that ...
Well,
It's a simple question, is it possible to run rhobuntu {ubuntu tweaked to run on rhodium... } on blueangel.
Here's the link for those who would liek to see what i'm talking about :forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=640785
well, As of now, i can run it on my touch diamond 2, but when i try to run it on blueangel, it just hangs and sits there until it gets a reset. But given that it runs perfectly on touch diamond2, there must be something that can be tweaked to make it run on BA, or atleast this is something that the more knowledgeable ones of us can try
I like the idea of running it on BA better than diamond2 because BA has a screen nearly 1.5 times wider, and a little longer too, would look better ; plus it has its own keyboard etc etc.
Well, in case someone else hasn't already started an initiative for this, i would like to request you to... in the most humble way possible
Regards.
it wouldn't look better as it couldn't look better. both the rhodium and your topaz have a display resolution of 480*800 WVGA, whereas the blueangel has 240*320 QVGA.
that means, by simply porting it, i.e. changing display resolution settings and several hardware mounts, it would show less than a quarter of what you can see now. have a look at the screenshots, the blue space marks, what you would be able to see on the BA.
i have to say, it is a great project, but the rhodium and topaz hardware is so much better than the BA's, you should rather ask the developer for a zoom function, if you like it bigger, i don't see that working on the blueangel
how about ...
with nyditot virtual display.... or similar software for bigger resolution...
i think we should still try its possibility, if it boots then improvements can take place...
for example, what's the screen comparison of a computer vs. touch diamond... someone gave it a try and then they improved upon it ... things happen 1 stage at a time right ?
i'd like to think if someone more knowledgeable can make it run, then i can try every lil thing to try to make it better... i just don't know how to make it boot on a ba...
gimme a clue and i'll try everything else that someone with my knowledgebase {very little} can ..
My guess is that without hardware acceleration, ubuntu would probably run as slow as molasses in the BA. Although, it does sound like a tempting idea. I think we have a better shot at getting Android to work properly in the BA, which I would be very interested in seeing/working on.