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Albert Poon said:
May I ask you guys with M9 to take pics using manual mode? A tripod, phone holder, low ISO, long explosure to take some night views?
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This was missing in the flickr album. Long exposure 1/4, 1/2 or 1s shots. And please use flickr so we can see exifs easily. board attachments and imgur strip exifs out. I notice the phonearena samples have no exifs in them at all.
Though i have to say i like this one. Just enough silhouette to set the mood.
ISO 80 and 1/40 WHAT!!! for late afternoon Seattle in winter. I can't tell if its HDR or not.
---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------
xxquicksh0txx said:
https://plus.google.com/10388377056...6126393456474303042&oid=103883770561517758752 Link to the beetle picture on his Google+ with a resolution of 1108 x 625. Definitely cropped/compressed
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Taken with VSCO cam, ISO 50, 1/268. So ample light.
Also used flash. Sharpness is set to soft.
A nice photo.
---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------
vegetaleb said:
Here a comparison of crop between M9 and Note 4 in not very low light conditions taken by the Tweakers review, you can clearly see the superiority of the Note 4 in the details like the logos of Goodyear and the wheel:
I know it's not final software but this M9 camera is giving the same results the SE C905 could give 6 years ago
M9
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Note 4
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Note 4 is ISO 400, 1/10
M9 is ISO 640, 1/14
About half a f-stop difference.
What if the M9 tried to get that with ISO 300 ie ISO 200 +0.3 at 1/7 ? or go slower still ISO100+0.3 at 1/3 ? can't do these tricks with the note, slowest it will get is 1/8 and then its auto night mode kicks in which did not happen in this picture. S5 & note 4 have improved their low light capability over their predecessors in auto but i bet you can come close to matching it if not exceeding it with manual on m9.
Light in this shot is quite low btw.
th3 said:
This obsession is what makes every product better in every field, than its predecessor.
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That pair is not as important as you think it is and that applies for all with good light.
Where this 'trounces' occurs is in low light. I've already said what needs to be done.
Without this obsession, there can be no better or worse product, and you'll still be saying "good enough" to the HTC Desire camera
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with macros yeah i would because there is no difference there. I've seen three year old devices do excellent macros. Hint: macros are not a good demonstration of what the latest camera can do.
The only real innovation we've had in sensors is BSI over the last two years. More sensitive in low light. You couldn't do that with 2013 devices, m7 was the sole exception. The rest is processing, how much of it or lack thereof.
On a more general level the trick with these devices is to know when to compromise and when to be maximalist. There is no perfect device so what you end up with is what you can tolerate over what you cannot do without. Every device has this trade off. Unfortunately you are alone with making this decision. Unless you are lucky to find others whose requirements match yours closely. Now do you see why i said minor. its minor in a larger context.
What you're saying... 'Moving the goalpost' it's called. Common trick.
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no tricks. calling it straight.
i don't trust auto.That on some devices its always flawless is a myth. auto goes wrong even on dslrs. what will you do then ? blame the device or your own ignorance. better to understand why and what went wrong and then fix it. and you can.
What i'm sensing here is an unwillingness to do so. That is something else.
Your opinion is not supported by the data we all have.
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That does not make what i said wrong. Its up to people here to provide that data. particularly low light with manual.
Its right because i've seen the same done with numerous devices already. This is how cameras work. They need light.
Give them that and you get a good shot. simple.
---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
tryfound said:
No, your whole post is invalid. I'm testing AUTO, feel free to grace us all with your superior photography skills when you get your M9.
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actually i should have said your tests were pointless and it was a waste of my time to go through them. test the note 4 in low light with manual in m9 that's what you should have done.
I wanted to see manual being used in the low light. You've got no excuses when the camera provides it. If you can't do that then its your problem not the m9.
bad auto does not mean bad camera. bad auto will be fixed. The Z1 took 3 months to get it right. What did people do, the lamers whined whereas the rest got busy with manual and got good shots from day 1.
make up your mind or sell.
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
vegetaleb said:
At last a camera comparison between M9 and Note4 http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/HTC-One-M9-vs-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-4_id3963/page/3
In daylight the Note 4 is significantly better, the M9 will smudge
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Show me smudge in daylight, i want to see how much. actually link the shots.
In low light even resized to 640x480 the M9 is very blurry and smudgy, the Note 4 is millions years ahead.
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All the low light shots have the m9 using high iso in guess what auto. The reviewer did not even try manual and blurred one of the shots because he could not hold a 1/7.
Conclusion: unless you want to use your photos only from daylight situations and only resized to Facebook and other social medias (of course no crop at all) . you should consider the Note 4 as a very good choice of camera phone in every situations.
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Do you realise that to display on a HD device you only need 1MP or on a full HD it only takes 2MP. Anything more than that gets resampled.
You don't let facebook or anybody else resize it you do it yourself then upload wherever.
tryfound said:
You're so full of yourself. How dare I waste your precious time.
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Look, you're not helping me, i'm helping you to help yourself as well as others in this thread.
Make up my mind or sell? Sell what? Some people here asked to see comparisons with the Note 4 and I gave them.
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And i'm pointing out why there were inadequate. They do not add anything above what reviews are saying.
I did not bother going through the imgur stuff since there are no exifs to see there. Assessing image quality let alone commenting without exifs is pointless.
To suggest that I should be tweaking manual settings on an M9 to achieve the quality of the Note 4's auto shots is beyond comprehension.
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auto shots are average x average, is this what people base their opinions on ?
manual means you take a test auto shot then see whether you can improve it in manual. That is how you will exceed what the reviews have shown and we get to see the best this camera can do. This is what any owner that wants to improve and exploit manual is going to do over time.
Why someone would not want to improve his shots is beyond my comprehension.
tryfound said:
Some more shots with the M9, large res then small res second. Had to use imgur because of filesize so these are compressed images, don't bother zooming for details, some of the higher res images I took have been reduced to a size smaller than the 'small' res images due to their original filesize, I guess that's imgur's way of compressing.
http://imgur.com/PeWfBMx
http://imgur.com/CNrpmW7
http://imgur.com/fOi00v3
http://imgur.com/dMQ1yXV
http://imgur.com/JmvdebB
http://imgur.com/MnF3Fue
http://imgur.com/2AtDjvr (HDR)
http://imgur.com/mP0g0aP (HDR)
http://imgur.com/NApwPvt
http://imgur.com/U8yHyuV
http://imgur.com/i04j8vr
http://imgur.com/1FPUAw7
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I just looked at images and they look really good. I am surprised M9 managed to capture that pristine detail I never seen before. White balance too looks so great not like previously green tint that was all over images.
One thing I am not able to find is camera data in adobe bridge and also colour space is untagged. That usually happens when photo being stripped of exif data. Have you by any chance gave some editing to them?
Thanks
I agree with a pack that camera should perform to the best on auto. If it doesn't , software has to be optimised if it's not then it's engineers faults Or hardware limitations.
it applies to the majority of the smartphone photographers . People want point and shoot.Even being enthusiast photographer and love digging my camera and phone camera I hate when auto underperforms when I simply want to take my phone out of the pocket and shoot.Every enthusiast can tweak but that defeats AUTO purpose .
There are average performers good and very good. Unfortunately M9 is not very good.Good ? Maybe....if light is favourable...at the moment it is consistently weak in certain situations. The usual wash out reminded me of the spill that when lets say camera lens gets in the studio shot or outside and for this purpose hood is used . This is one of the speculations I come up with. Somehow HTC phones consistently suffer from that. Could be they have same team of engineers that can't find the key to successful Software optimization or not so decent hardware just guessing here. Being visualphile that particular trade off with HTC devices just kills me.
nebulaoperator said:
I agree with a pack that camera should perform to the best on auto. If it doesn't , software has to be optimised if it's not then it's engineers faults Or hardware limitations.
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.
I've seen this issue with other devices. xperias camera software was never quite ready at launch. Lots of bashing. Took them a few months to get it right. Mostly auto. Then shots come out with lower ISO which you could have got yourself if you tried. Image quality is better now. why ? iso is lower. So if auto is taking high iso then low iso will get you a better shot.
So when people say camera is not working its auto. No other issues i can see so far. They will fix it but in the mean time if manual settings are tweaked you will get the results you want today. Most do not know how to do that or worse do not want to.
it applies to the majority of the smartphone photographers . People want point and shoot.Even being enthusiast photographer and love digging my camera and phone camera I hate when auto underperforms when I simply want to take my phone out of the pocket and shoot.Every enthusiast can tweak but that defeats AUTO purpose .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
General advice i give to people who cant take photos is go with the koreans or apple. if you want more then look at others.
First time i came across an iphone camera after seeing the usual controls in nokias and android was wtf do i do with this. Some shots can't be got with auto. when there is no access to manual then you are stuck. take it or leave it. its only a phone camera, you're not supposed to do anything more. Who said so ?
Many people take shots and figuring out who is at fault is a tricky business. Of course the tendency is to blame the device but the person taking the shot is the most responsible, always.
There are average performers good and very good. Unfortunately M9 is not very good.Good ? Maybe....if light is favourable...at the moment it is consistently weak in certain situations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Low light with auto. From what i've seen consistently boosts auto up. There are even night modes which to date i've not seen anybody even try. HELLO!
So auto is not picking these modes for some reason. Its a bug. But if you set it yourself then what is the result. Much better i bet.
The usual wash out reminded me of the spill that when lets say camera lens gets in the studio shot or outside and for this purpose hood is used .
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Click to collapse
A lens hood decreases lens flare and saturates colours. Take a shot in shade of a sunny area. If you're getting lens flare then its clearly user error. Not just with this device but with any. I would just use my hand out of camera to block some of the light or avoid unwanted reflections. Here is a good example
https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157651089646798/with/16274675233/
cloudy day, massive light box in the sky. Colours are all rich. Which is best. i cannot tell
interestingly enough the low end devices suffer less from this problem because the sensors are not as sensitive. They can take good shots in awful bright light which would be washed out with more capable sensors. Not much use indoors though.
This is one of the speculations I come up with. Somehow HTC phones consistently suffer from that. Could be they have same team of engineers that can't find the key to successful Software optimization or not so decent hardware just guessing here. Being visualphile that particular trade off with HTC devices just kills me.
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Click to collapse
The ones typically from what i've seen blow out the sky. They are a little more quirky in getting those blue skies. Overexposed. HDR is one way to do it but it can be tricked also. i remember this work around from the m8 forum where this guy pointed close to the sun to lock exposure and then recomposed back on the scene. The picture was remarkably better. You don't have to do this all the time only in certain situations.
Review on bunch of cameras.
Gizmodo: The Best Smartphone Camera: Samsung Galaxy S6 Edition. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4ZO08yA
tryfound said:
Some more shots with the M9, large res then small res second. Had to use imgur because of filesize so these are compressed images, don't bother zooming for details, some of the higher res images I took have been reduced to a size smaller than the 'small' res images due to their original filesize, I guess that's imgur's way of compressing.
http://imgur.com/PeWfBMx
http://imgur.com/CNrpmW7
http://imgur.com/fOi00v3
http://imgur.com/dMQ1yXV
http://imgur.com/JmvdebB
http://imgur.com/MnF3Fue
http://imgur.com/2AtDjvr (HDR)
http://imgur.com/mP0g0aP (HDR)
http://imgur.com/NApwPvt
http://imgur.com/U8yHyuV
http://imgur.com/i04j8vr
http://imgur.com/1FPUAw7
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jauhien said:
Some yesterday snaps here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/we88grvt72bldy8/4PDA_REQUEST.zip?dl=0
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One Twelve said:
.
Disclaimer: I should learn how to use quotes.
I've seen this issue with other devices. xperias camera software was never quite ready at launch. Lots of bashing. Took them a few months to get it right. Mostly auto. Then shots come out with lower ISO which you could have got yourself if you tried. Image quality is better now. why ? iso is lower. So if auto is taking high iso then low iso will get you a better shot.
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Click to collapse
Whether it's ISO OIS or else it does not stop camera to perform well. Take A look at Iphone 6 it works wonders. Low light is not on the par with M7 m8. The thing you have to understand , strongly camera orientated phone should not come with a sticker on the box " want a better image use manual"
[/QUOTE]So when people say camera is not working its auto. No other issues i can see so far. They will fix it but in the mean time if manual settings are tweaked you will get the results you want today. Most do not know how to do that or worse do not want to.[/QUOTE]
A lot people say because AUTO doesn't work. Why would I have buy "they will fix it" if I pay 500-600 GBP for a phone. It doesn't work like that. And in most cases software improved performance but only to a point .I own M7 and know it's weaknesses.And I don't want to use manual though I know my phone from inside to outside.
[/QUOTE]General advice i give to people who cant take photos is go with the koreans or apple. if you want more then look at others.
First time i came across an iphone camera after seeing the usual controls in nokias and android was wtf do i do with this. Some shots can't be got with auto. when there is no access to manual then you are stuck. take it or leave it. its only a phone camera, you're not supposed to do anything more. Who said so ?
Many people take shots and figuring out who is at fault is a tricky business. Of course the tendency is to blame the device but the person taking the shot is the most responsible, always.[/QUOTE]
I saw ifone users don't even know AE/AF lock exist till I showed. Iphone 6 has the simplest UI that can be invented I also call it Dummy proof. I think you can get an app to have access to tweaks option otherwise it's a bit limited to my taste. I can blame phone camera without long hesitation for two reasons: if hardware sucks or software or both. Then no amount of tweaks can help you. M7 is notorious for washouts, poor dynamic range. I found HDR was never a strong suite of M7 neither M8 or M9. However if you can tweak settings you might get away bringing images to photoshop. That's what I do. On the other hand only minority people are enthusiast like we are and the majority should be at least faulted for what smartphone manufacturer didn't do in the first place. If iphone , nokia, samsung(from 2014) proved there is a lot more that can be done with camera.
[/QUOTE]Low light with auto. From what i've seen consistently boosts auto up. There are even night modes which to date i've not seen anybody even try. HELLO!
So auto is not picking these modes for some reason. Its a bug. But if you set it yourself then what is the result. Much better i bet.[/QUOTE]
Low light was nevera weak spot for HTC One line(until now M9) it was cloudy weather condition with little contrast, also situation when I have half frame window in and the other half room. It would go into extremes overexpose the light in the window or underexposedarks barely visible. Sensor and software is not coping with dynamic range. I kind of like night mode but found it to slow in some situation due to the shutter speed so I just used normal mode it did great though. I wish I could try RAW mode but unfortunately I am selling my phone today ( Not sure if RAW will be brought to lollipop for M7)
[/QUOTE]A lens hood decreases lens flare and saturates colours. Take a shot in shade of a sunny area. If you're getting lens flare then its clearly user error. Not just with this device but with any. I would just use my hand out of camera to block some of the light or avoid unwanted reflections. Here is a good example
https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157651089646798/with/16274675233/
cloudy day, massive light box in the sky. Colours are all rich. Which is best. i cannot tell
interestingly enough the low end devices suffer less from this problem because the sensors are not as sensitive. They can take good shots in awful bright light which would be washed out with more capable sensors. Not much use indoors though.[/QUOTE]
I worked with photographer who used hood for the headshots and it was game changer.
For instance Iphone6 is least prone to that error but most Android camera phones I came across are. I was surprised by Note 4 results and S6 I would never think they can do so well. So it must be bug or hardware or both as I mentioned earlier. Nice photos from M9 but WB is somehow a bit off sometimes on the blue side( couple of weeks before it was to yellow green Funny enough you are the first I came across that used hand to block the light I do that too. I guess we both come from the same/similar trade.
[/QUOTE]
The ones typically from what i've seen blow out the sky. They are a little more quirky in getting those blue skies. Overexposed. HDR is one way to do it but it can be tricked also. i remember this work around from the m8 forum where this guy pointed close to the sun to lock exposure and then recomposed back on the scene. The picture was remarkably better. You don't have to do this all the time only in certain situations.[/QUOTE]
AE/AF is a very handy tool. I am glad smartphones have this simple yet very effective feature.
Quadrider10 said:
Review on bunch of cameras.
Gizmodo: The Best Smartphone Camera: Samsung Galaxy S6 Edition. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4ZO08yA
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I didn't think the M9 looked bad. Need to use a computer instead of my note 4
Sent from a mobile gadget...
---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------
And guys, chill out. I don't think M9 will have the best camera, but it will hopefully be enough. What I'm worried about is the speed of the camera and SOT. I will probably buy it anyway because I love HTCs mix.
Sent from a mobile gadget...
You're not helping anyone mate. Pig with lipstick is still a pig. No matter how much spin you are putting on it.
Everything you are saying is your subjective opinion not backed by any reviewer or already debunked. No data at all.
I don't see any fruit in continuing this back and forth "I think" or "you can do this in software" discussion with you. I, and 99% of users, only care about how the product performs out of the box. A few may go further, with manual. That's it.
Lame apologist excuses don't hide that. If you can do x with M9, you can also do better with S6/iP6/N4 etc starting from a better base.
I'll have the M9 31st March. Then, we'll see.
One Twelve said:
Look, you're not helping me, i'm helping you to help yourself as well as others in this thread.
And i'm pointing out why there were inadequate. They do not add anything above what reviews are saying.
I did not bother going through the imgur stuff since there are no exifs to see there. Assessing image quality let alone commenting without exifs is pointless.
auto shots are average x average, is this what people base their opinions on ?
manual means you take a test auto shot then see whether you can improve it in manual. That is how you will exceed what the reviews have shown and we get to see the best this camera can do. This is what any owner that wants to improve and exploit manual is going to do over time.
Why someone would not want to improve his shots is beyond my comprehension.
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Click to collapse
One Twelve said:
That pair is not as important as you think it is and that applies for all with good light.
Where this 'trounces' occurs is in low light. I've already said what needs to be done.
with macros yeah i would because there is no difference there. I've seen three year old devices do excellent macros. Hint: macros are not a good demonstration of what the latest camera can do.
The only real innovation we've had in sensors is BSI over the last two years. More sensitive in low light. You couldn't do that with 2013 devices, m7 was the sole exception. The rest is processing, how much of it or lack thereof.
On a more general level the trick with these devices is to know when to compromise and when to be maximalist. There is no perfect device so what you end up with is what you can tolerate over what you cannot do without. Every device has this trade off. Unfortunately you are alone with making this decision. Unless you are lucky to find others whose requirements match yours closely. Now do you see why i said minor. its minor in a larger context.
no tricks. calling it straight.
i don't trust auto.That on some devices its always flawless is a myth. auto goes wrong even on dslrs. what will you do then ? blame the device or your own ignorance. better to understand why and what went wrong and then fix it. and you can.
What i'm sensing here is an unwillingness to do so. That is something else.
That does not make what i said wrong. Its up to people here to provide that data. particularly low light with manual.
Its right because i've seen the same done with numerous devices already. This is how cameras work. They need light.
Give them that and you get a good shot. simple.
---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
actually i should have said your tests were pointless and it was a waste of my time to go through them. test the note 4 in low light with manual in m9 that's what you should have done.
I wanted to see manual being used in the low light. You've got no excuses when the camera provides it. If you can't do that then its your problem not the m9.
bad auto does not mean bad camera. bad auto will be fixed. The Z1 took 3 months to get it right. What did people do, the lamers whined whereas the rest got busy with manual and got good shots from day 1.
make up your mind or sell.
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
Show me smudge in daylight, i want to see how much. actually link the shots.
All the low light shots have the m9 using high iso in guess what auto. The reviewer did not even try manual and blurred one of the shots because he could not hold a 1/7.
Do you realise that to display on a HD device you only need 1MP or on a full HD it only takes 2MP. Anything more than that gets resampled.
You don't let facebook or anybody else resize it you do it yourself then upload wherever.
Click to expand...
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Sent using Tapatalk
th3 said:
You're not helping anyone mate. Pig with lipstick is still a pig. No matter how much spin you are putting on it.
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Went right to the end for the punchline
I'll have the M9 31st March. Then, we'll see.
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Hah so despite the s6 camera 'trouncing' the m9, you actually went in for what ? .....<drum roll>....the M9 <applause>
Confirms what i said earlier, the image quality differences weren't enough to deter you.
Lame apologist excuses don't hide that. If you can do x with M9, you can also do better with S6/iP6/N4 etc starting from a better base.
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Click to collapse
yeah so why didn't you get one of them then ? riiiiightt. Why the narrow obsessions with image quality somehow don't pan out in the end. Bigger forces at play.
With ip6+ and 3rd party camera with manual controls. you can improve over stock auto. With the same on the iP6 or even iP5x and a steady hand you can come close if not match the plus.
S6 & N4 or even the G3 don't offer shutter speed control so there is no way to tell how effective their OIS is, its just stated and i believe its there but no way to tell like say with the iP6+ that can do a 1/4 handheld. Night mode on the recent samsungs is good. Much improved over earlier versions. They boosting sensor gain and fiddling around. To get a similar shot would require an exposure two times longer with other devices including the m9. So you will have to work at it.
No idea when raw support will come for the above. But i bet you get it on the m9 before them. Your details issues will disappear at that point but you have to process each image yourself.
Everything you are saying is your subjective opinion not backed by any reviewer or already debunked. No data at all.
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So you do not understand that delaying shutter and lowering iso will improve image quality in low light ? This applies only with stationary subjects btw, forget doing it with people or anything that won't sit still.
Sop with any camera that allows manual control, i can show you manual lumia 930 vs note 4 where it gets pretty close and auto did not. When more people post later you'll see what i mean.
I'm most interested in the low light shots and rarely bother with daylight comparisons because they are pretty similar. In fact my problem with smartphone cameras is too much detail strange as that may sound. because it makes isolating subjects harder. Everything is so damn clear. Because its the equivalent of an f11 lens in 35mm speak. Depth of field is deeper. Great for macros but not others.
I don't see any fruit in continuing this back and forth "I think" or "you can do this in software" discussion with you. I, and 99% of users, only care about how the product performs out of the box. A few may go further, with manual. That's it.
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Click to collapse
If you want better photos what i said works. 99% or not is meaningless. This is xda, do 99 % care about rooting, custom firmwares, or any number of hacks people share here ? So what 99% are you referring to and why do they matter. If anything i'm more interested in the 1%.
what i've said wrt to manual is no different. In fact its common knowledge to anyone who has a clue.
---------- Post added at 04:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 AM ----------
*Emix* said:
https://curved.de/news/galaxy-s6-one-m9-iphone-6-im-grossen-kameravergleich-236192
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Why they didn't use iP6+ ?
1. night shots all soft because iso got boosted on m9. 2nd shot wrong wb for m9. 4th shot all have blown lights, cannot do this without blending.
2. again iso got boosted on m9. second selfie, because background is brighter so iso drops and looks normal.
3. is about where you set exposure.
4. macros are similar. contrast can be improved in post.
5. panoramas, heh all not to my liking because of cylindrical projection. no straight horizontals with such a wide fov.
6. food, can be improved in post or use manual. That ISO is maybe close to 600 try to get it at half.
curiousgeorge1893 said:
Not quite on topic but I've got an M8 coming, I'm ditching my Xperia Z2 for it, is that a good idea do you think?
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What is it about the Z2 that you don't like ? You'd be trading fantastic video stabilisation for none.
The scene modes should help in low light if you use them right. However the lack of shutter control can be frustrating. A quick tweak can't be done. More trial & error.
I was put off by the 4MP camera as i admit I like to zoom and crop, however I like a phone that is good in lowlight.
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What does 4MP do ? sharpens the mind. You have to think more carefully about what you want to get it right. If you want to zoom & crop then you need to be closer to your subject. if you can't do that then 4MP is out.
Also, I like a phone that offers manual controls and shutter speed, HTC phones are the only ones that do this plus a like a phone that has a good flash and takes photos quickly.
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m8 is a fast shooter in auto. But this gap has been closed with the S6 and the S5 is fast too. Have you considered them ? No shutter control though. Given what they've done may or may not be that critical. These samsungs are primarily auto shooters. If they get what you want great, if not don't complain because you can't do much.
As for similar manual controls the hybrid zooms had them first and optical zoom is a plus. crop in camera not afterwards. K zoom or wait for the successor. Slower though. And apertures are smaller. 3.1 all the way to 6.3. Working OIS.
I was planning on getting a secondhand M9 later in the year but to be honest I am disappointed as I feel that HTC have go fowards then 2 steps backwards with the M9 camera. Whilst it's great it has a higher resolution, the f/2.0 aperature in the M7 and M8 is now f/2.2 on the M9, in my opinion it should have been f/2.0 or f/1.9, also lack of OIS is disappointing and it seems lowlight on the M9 isn't as good as the M8? Very disappointing if so.
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The difference between f2.0 and 2.2 is a quarter a f-stop. That's like getting a shot at ISO 200 instead of 250. Or 1/50 instead of 1/40. Its insignficant as one or the other parameter will compensate anyway so not really as notable as reviewers make out.
However the m9 isn't as fast a camera as its predecessors.See the camera speed benchmark. Almost twice as slow as the m8. And the Z2 is faster than the m9. Does this matter ? only if you're rushed. And if you are you're not going to get very good shots to begin with. Is the choice no shot or passable. In that case look at an advanced compact with a 1 inch sensor. Much more light, faster lens and better quality. For the same money.
BoneXDA said:
I do notice the white balance shifting sometimes on the goldish side around sunlit areas, and the M9 tends to underexpose in such conditions.
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I've noticed twice that it gets confused with halogen and neon lights, turning cream and red into green. With a yellow i can see how green can happen by wb adding blue, so just need to use a fluorescent wb or more. But cream into green is inexplicable for me. If its a bug then only a firmware update can fix it.
---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------
curiousgeorge1893 said:
I like the Z2 but not the post processing, it smudges details, I read on here that the Z3 does the same?
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Whenever camera has to produce a jpg and do it fast it has to make a call between preserving detail (ie more noise) or smoothness (less noise). I've seen smudging happen with vegetation, it happens with all jpg outputting devices to varying degrees. To make larger features look good means smaller are going to appear less sharp. Must have the lowest ISO with a longer shutter that means anything that moves is out unless light is good or smudging gets worse.
Only way is raw but you have to process every image yourself, and its a much bigger file so it will be slower than 4mp jpg.
Compare these two from nexus 5. Jpg vs processed RAW. Pull the full resolution and pixel peep all you want.
The originals come from fv5 site.
You control what should be more in detail or not instead of some average one size fits all algorithm with an impossible task that is optimised for speed by trading off image quality. Image quality here isn't file size but a function of how much luminance and chroma noise is preserved or not.
That algorithm and its implementation is the source of lots of heated argument over which is the better camera. Silly really.
SPreston2001 said:
The whole camera comparison may be silly, but 90% of users just want to pick up the phone and snap good pics. Most users don't fiddle around with the camera settings or even know what they do for that matter lol. All they see are which photos look the best when they pick up their phone and take a pic. The M9 camera seems to be alot better than the M8s camera but it still tends to fall behind Apples and Samsungs imaging abilities.
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Then those people should stick with the brands mentioned. Those brands are for people with no interest in photography. WHAT took the shot is more important than WHO took it. That is the mindset auto everything encourages, what did the owner do, just press a button. Still I would not be surprised to find people even on those boards complaining about something or the other.
Where i'm coming from is what if you don't want those brands for whatever reasons. What then ?
You wait for firmware upgrades and you learn how to get better shots. What went wrong and how to get around it.
My attitude is you are stuck with this thing and you are going to have to make the best of it. Few months later you will find people here doing just that. A review can never match it.
One Twelve said:
Then those people should stick with the brands mentioned. Those brands are for people with no interest in photography. WHAT took the shot is more important than WHO took it. That is the mindset auto everything encourages, what did the owner do, just press a button. Still I would not be surprised to find people even on those boards complaining about something or the other.
Where i'm coming from is what if you don't want those brands for whatever reasons. What then ?
You wait for firmware upgrades and you learn how to get better shots. What went wrong and how to get around it.
My attitude is you are stuck with this thing and you are going to have to make the best of it. Few months later you will find people here doing just that. A review can never match it.
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So HTC phones are for people who have interest in photography?? Lol they usually have the worst cameras amongst flagship devices yet theyre for photography minded people?? You act as of HTC is the only manufacturer that has the ability to tweak the camera settings. Most "serious" photographers won't use a cellphone to take a pic. The whole idea of cell cams is to capture quick and beautiful everyday life pictures. The ability to tweak the settings is just a added bonus for those who want to get a little more serious with it.
But to each his own I guess. When it comes to cell cams I just wanna pull it, out take a pic, and expect it to look good. If tweaking the settings to get the perfect shot is for you then that's fine. But all I'm saying is those same things can be done with other manufacturers cams too.
gavinfabl said:
This is a photos thread. We need photos! The weather for another day is gales and heavy rain here, so ruined my planned day of shooting again. Using manual settings I have captured some good shots (but private photos of family). Lowering resolution down a fraction helps in lower light. Auto is OK but when I take control even with a single tweak the difference is noticeable. I've used the S6 and S6 Edge and compared it with my Note 4. The S6 has a good auto mode.
This is my S6 and S6 Edge camera shots , and vs Note 4 camera. http://gavinsgadgets.com/2015/03/19...sung-galaxy-s6-and-s6-edge-plus-camera-shots/
I will have more in depth analysis when it's stops raining .....
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Can't say my experience with the s6 / edge was similar. On the camera front yes the camera is fast. But I found a huge issue with white balance and somewhat heavier than normal post processing (pretty evident when you look at the photos on a camera). The problem is even in pro mode, the camera still struggles with white balance. I am a white balance whore to be honest and when I see a camera struggle, I shudder.
Touchwiz lagged for me. Immensely. I kept flicking through the homescreen, not many widgets above the stock ones, and there were multiple times the device just locked up. Even after rebooting the device quite a few times, there was lag. Off topic, I watched the verge podcast recently and they also affirmed a lot of the lag I experienced with my model.
So far, I'm semi disappointed. The devices are light (like physically, I expected something much heavier). The GS6 felt boxy and somewhat sharper for my tastes while the Edge just "fit" in my hand like a really nice glove. I was stunned that the edge was the more interesting feeling device. Both devices are fingerprint magnets though almost to the point of being disgusting. After 10 minutes of handling, I was in awe with the amount of smudges and oil the back of the device accrued from general handling.
Handling is something that the Edge excels in for the most part. It feels "natural" to swipe at an edge point and get a hamburg menu from Google. And you do in GMAIL, Google Play, and a myriad of other areas. It just feels like touchwiz didn't necessarily provide too many gesture driven tasks that would really take benefit of the edge display. II mean sure you get the call context menus and the light up gimmick, but that's about it sadly. The shame of it all is that above that, the GS6 is a beautiful iphone 5-5s ripoff and the Edge is something of a quagmire begging for a developer to put it to good use. It can be obtrusive but not so much to the point it ruins the user experience.
Overall, I'm left somewhat underwhelmed with the devices. Sure, the screen is gorgeous with marvelous viewing angle fitting for a flagship. But it feels like the GS6 / edge is a iterative step in a unique and bold direction that didn't fully deliver.
Shame actually. Most people will love the GS6 / Edge. Me, I'll be forever disappoint
SPreston2001 said:
So HTC phones are for people who have interest in photography??
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What purpose is there to provide manual controls then ? nokia started this btw.
Lol they usually have the worst cameras amongst flagship devices yet theyre for photography minded people??
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its a mindset that comes naturally to those that are into photography. They are going to try a great deal more before throwing in the towel.
Very obvious when i see Jesse's photos. You make the shot not the camera. newbies whenever they see a nice photo always want to know what camera took the shot. The person, well he just clicked. How hard could it be. They like to hide behind their cameras. Often i see shots that are horribly taken and well it was the camera's fault.
HTC is a bad camera with people who cannot take a photo. I've never bought into the 4MP was bad. A full HD screen can only display 2MP anyway. if you're not zooming or need to then you're focus is on how nice the shot looks rather than whether you can count hairs on somebody's head. I've seen people post nice photos here. if you need to crop your photos then you ain't thinking about your shots or your use case exceeds what 4MP can provide.
You act as of HTC is the only manufacturer that has the ability to tweak the camera settings.
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lets be clear on what manual settings i'm referring to here. Who else offers shutter speed control ?
apple only woke up to the fact in their latest OS. prior to which you could do squat cos um turtle neck deemed it unecessary. Nokia had them early and the cheapest lumias 635 ? do too. samsungs don't not even in their latest. neither does moto, or LG which went backwards with the G3 or Sony. The Chinese provide some more. So yeah HTC since the m8 was the only android offering on a fixed focal lens that offered shutter control. Makes it easy to fix things if you were so inclined. Samsung's galaxy camera is the only other that can claim to have had it first on android earlier and its a compact.
Most "serious" photographers won't use a cellphone to take a pic. The whole idea of cell cams is to capture quick and beautiful everyday life pictures. The ability to tweak the settings is just a added bonus for those who want to get a little more serious with it.
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A cam is a cam and you can learn photography with any cam and play more with one that allows manual settings. I don't have a DSLR because i've not got to the point where i need one. I take shots every day and i like to tweak them because auto cant get it right. Its very normal to have access if not always necessary. But i'd rather have them and not need them than the other way around.
If you drive a stick shift you won't enjoy driving a cruiser.
But to each his own I guess. When it comes to cell cams I just wanna pull it, out take a pic, and expect it to look good. If tweaking the settings to get the perfect shot is for you then that's fine. But all I'm saying is those same things can be done with other manufacturers cams too.
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I never expect it to look good, if it does then conditions were perfect and i was lucky, i will usually take a auto shot and if it fine leave it at that or try to tweak things about and take a couple more. I always try to take more than one. A phone is going to get thrown into so many varied situations that would challenge a pro. To expect to get it right in one take with a phone camera when pointing at anything you can think of isn't realistic.
nebulaoperator said:
Whether it's ISO OIS or else it does not stop camera to perform well. Take A look at Iphone 6 it works wonders. Low light is not on the par with M7 m8. The thing you have to understand , strongly camera orientated phone should not come with a sticker on the box " want a better image use manual"
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A tweak here or there will always improve a shot. How many people know that. Then there is the question of will. if its there and you don't use it then its not the camera's fault. It is there for flexibility.
iphone 6 no, but 6+ will get shots at 1/4. Apple thinks slower than 1/12 is not feasible for iP6. To go slower than 1/4 have to use 3rd party soft to tweak things. iphone camera has always been capable but until ios8 there was no way to access camera parameters so low light was never good.
I saw ifone users don't even know AE/AF lock exist till I showed. Iphone 6 has the simplest UI that can be invented I also call it Dummy proof. I think you can get an app to have access to tweaks option otherwise it's a bit limited to my taste.
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yes its useful there is also a way to do some exposure comp but it changes metering to spot from average or whatever apple equivalent is. A review was comparing 6 & 6+ and saying photos looked better with 6+ until i saw the exifs and pointed out both were using different metering. So of course shots will look different.
With the latest ios you have much more options than before. Curious apple did a u turn there. But not stock just with 3rd party software.
A lot people say because AUTO doesn't work. Why would I have buy "they will fix it" if I pay 500-600 GBP for a phone. It doesn't work like that. And in most cases software improved performance but only to a point .
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So wait for a few months then decide. As for firmware improvements. If you take a shot with firmware a at ISO 200 and compare with firmware b at ISO 200, there will be little difference.
What i mean is they can lower ISO for lower light shots so it does not boost it so high. This will improve auto some. But to go further it requires manual. Possible now, if somebody would try.
They can improve white balance with auto but it will get tricked some times so only up to a point.
I can blame phone camera without long hesitation for two reasons: if hardware sucks or software or both. Then no amount of tweaks can help you. M7 is notorious for washouts, poor dynamic range. I found HDR was never a strong suite of M7 neither M8 or M9. However if you can tweak settings you might get away bringing images to photoshop. That's what I do. On the other hand only minority people are enthusiast like we are and the majority should be at least faulted for what smartphone manufacturer didn't do in the first place. If iphone , nokia, samsung(from 2014) proved there is a lot more that can be done with camera.
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They are trying to make it easy for the average person in the hope of selling more products. The traditional way is to learn how to use the product. I know the washouts you mean, blown skies etc. But once a person is aware of that you can improve it.
Low light was nevera weak spot for HTC One line(until now M9) it was cloudy weather condition with little contrast, also situation when I have half frame window in and the other half room. It would go into extremes overexpose the light in the window or underexposedarks barely visible. Sensor and software is not coping with dynamic range. I kind of like night mode but found it to slow in some situation due to the shutter speed so I just used normal mode it did great though. I wish I could try RAW mode but unfortunately I am selling my phone today ( Not sure if RAW will be brought to lollipop for M7)
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So what are you getting ?
freedcam can already output raw on m7 & m8 and by the looks of it m9 too. htc made this easy.
I worked with photographer who used hood for the headshots and it was game changer.
For instance Iphone6 is least prone to that error but most Android camera phones I came across are. I was surprised by Note 4 results and S6 I would never think they can do so well. So it must be bug or hardware or both as I mentioned earlier. Nice photos from M9 but WB is somehow a bit off sometimes on the blue side( couple of weeks before it was to yellow green Funny enough you are the first I came across that used hand to block the light I do that too. I guess we both come from the same/similar trade.
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It was an accidental discovery. I was taking shot of somebody outside the house from inside with a tab (!) and wondered why the clothes were so saturated.
There is something up with the m9's WB i can see from numerous photos. But nobody is trying manual to fix it.
Was looking at latest world press photo contest. Many with pro dslrs and i saw one person entered an iphone photo and its in the list of winners. Out of 95k entries !!! smartphone photo..Can you believe it
Lol this thread is very entertaining to say the least
twoeleven99 said:
Lol this thread is very entertaining to say the least
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So what's your take on the M9 pictures, if I may ask?
Sent using Tapatalk
Background
While the Z5 has demonstrated that it can take good daytime photos and excellent video (thanks to its closed-loop actuator), low-light performance has been a concern, due to a lack of OIS and its smaller pixels.
I had the opportunity to borrow an LG G4 to test low-light conditions with the Z5. Testing took a while, as I needed to understand the different scene selections of the Z5's Superior Auto mode. I chose two classic, well-known, posters for the basis of the analysis: Star Wars - The Empire Strikes Back and Breakfast at Tiffany's. The posters feature both artwork and text, which should provide a good mix of characteristics for comparison. Also, the posters can easily be found online, so no reference photos were necessary.
Test conditions
The SW:ESB poster was lit from a single, overhead, incandecent light bulb (60 watt), which was roughly 10 ft/3 m away. The Breakfast at Tiffany's poster had no nearby light source - the light comes from the next room over 20+ ft/ 7+ m away.
All photos were taken in automatic mode for both phones. The Z5 was set to 8 MP in 16:9 ratio. I had tried set up the photos to look as similar as possible.
Camera setup
The SW:ESB night pics were taken while sitting down. The Z5 photos are as follows:
a) Night mode icon (i.e. moon icon)
b) Night mode icon + tripod icon
c) Night mode icon + tripod icon, phone holder stabilized (not hand-held)
The Breakfast at Tiffany's pics were taken while standing up, with arms in an elevated position. This is was due to the fact that the poster was mounted higher on the wall. It should represent the Z5's worse case scenario, as there was no way to stay completely steady due to the awkward posture and poor lighting.
Note: I had to re-take the Breakfast at Tiffany's photo, as I discovered that the initial photo had moved the focus to the top of the poster, due to face detection. I manually adjusted the focus rather than cut off Audrey's elegant face. When face detection icon was not on screen, the low-light icon (i.e. candle icon) would come on.
Link to photos (7-zipped):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Put-ePeAktZXE4YkxpNmhmWUk
The photos have not been edited in any way, other than to rename the files. I will leave the photos up for a couple of weeks. If you are reading this post after November 2015, and would like a link to the pics, please send me a PM.
Conclusion
OIS definitely helped with the low-light pics. The difference in detail was due to blurring, not MPs as far I could tell. In better lighting conditions or when stabilized, the Z5 and G4 had the same level of detail. The G4 pics became more and more "washed out" as the light level dropped, which was probably due to its smaller sensor.
Kids vs. stills: For quick snaps of people in moderate-to-low lighting, the Z5 was better, due to face detection. OIS couldn't do much to help. G4 had a lot more blurred photos, but when it wasn't blurred, the quality was good.
So why choose the Z5 (without OIS)? For the video recording. Once you've tried taking FHD videos with the Z5, you'll probably never go back to using OIS. Try it in the store... take a walk, jump up and down, shake it all around. It's pretty dang amazing.
Anyway, I hope the pics and the comparison were helpful.
Cheers!
Wrong title These are 'night mode' shots with decent amount of light. How about some real low-light shots (low-light mode/ high ISO) ?
schecter7 said:
Wrong title These are 'night mode' shots with decent amount of light. How about some real low-light shots (low-light mode/ high ISO) ?
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Gah... I don't have the G4 to test with anymore. I didn't say it was "dinner by candle light". But I'll change the title a bit.
Cool. It'd have been real fun to see some blackouts from G4 (like I regularly do from S6 ) in 'low-light'
schecter7 said:
Cool. It'd have been real fun to see some blackouts from G4 (like I regularly do from S6 ) in 'low-light'
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Can you please explain what you mean by "blackouts"?
schecter7 said:
Cool. It'd have been real fun to see some blackouts from G4 (like I regularly do from S6 ) in 'low-light'
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Yeah, I noticed the G4's pics got darker rather quickly as the lights went down. Didn't think anyone was interested to see washed out Z5 pics vs. pitch-black G4 pics! xD But I think we need to really test the Z5 outdoors at night with a tripod and see what it's capable of. Anyone live in a big city with a good night life? Tim?
BTW, anyone see these night pics from Zoë Noble?
http://blogs.sonymobile.com/2015/09/04/berlinmoments-part2-zoe-noble-on-berlins-nightscapes/
bloodfire1004 said:
Can you please explain what you mean by "blackouts"?
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Now that OP has changed the title, it's become irrelevant. Before he kills me ... I meant the pictures you get when the sensor is pushed to its limit in low-light. It's not a standard term, btw lol
Some extreme examples
http://i0.wp.com/fortheloveoftech.c...4/10/wp_20141016_19_14_30_pro.jpg?fit=810,810
http://i1.wp.com/fortheloveoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/dsc_0010.jpg?fit=810,810
---------- Post added at 06:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 AM ----------
joe_dude said:
Yeah, I noticed the G4's pics got darker rather quickly as the lights went down. Didn't think anyone was interested to see washed out Z5 pics vs. pitch-black G4 pics! xD But I think we need to really test the Z5 outdoors at night with a tripod and see what it's capable of. Anyone live in a big city with a good night life? Tim?
BTW, anyone see these night pics from Zoë Noble?
http://blogs.sonymobile.com/2015/09/04/berlinmoments-part2-zoe-noble-on-berlins-nightscapes/
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At the very extreme end, Xperia outputs will wash out. But couple stops before that Xperia will get you a usable output while the others will still remain pitch-black. Try it out when you get a chance.
I will do it (without a tripod - you kidding right). I live downtown & I got tired of taking night shots long time ago. Next weekend - hopefully.
schecter7 said:
Now that OP has changed the title, it's become irrelevant. Before he kills me ... I meant the pictures you get when the sensor is pushed to its limit in low-light. It's not a standard term, btw lol
Some extreme examples
http://i0.wp.com/fortheloveoftech.c...4/10/wp_20141016_19_14_30_pro.jpg?fit=810,810
http://i1.wp.com/fortheloveoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/dsc_0010.jpg?fit=810,810
---------- Post added at 06:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 AM ----------
At the very extreme end, Xperia outputs will wash out. But couple stops before that Xperia will get you a usable output while the others will still remain pitch-black. Try it out when you get a chance.
I will do it (without a tripod - you kidding right). I live downtown & I got tired of taking night shots long time ago. Next weekend - hopefully.
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I see. Thanks!
Here is my indoor(metro) and night shot(outdoor) campaign of S6 vs. Z5c. All are shared in it's original size without editing other than renaming.
S6:
FHD - Software stabilization disabled, OIS enabled(can't be disable)
UHD - OIS enabled(can't be disable)
Z5c:
FHD - IA software stabilization on
UHD - Standard steadyshot on
All photo and video were shot by stock camera handheld. Sony only allowed to pack ISO in 8MP Manual so all are in 8MP from 100iso to 3200iso, skipped testing 50iso bcoz 100iso already super easy to create handshake. S6 were all from Pro mode(standard auto mode can't select ISO) range from 100iso to 800iso, max is 800 from Samsung offered, can't go higher in Pro mode though sometimes the auto mode could boost up to 1000ISO.
Some photo got little handshake and I've no time to just keep repeat shooting. In my experiences, S6 easily beats Z5c in terms of handshake and focus performance(at very low light S6 focus is superior, more faster and accurate). Indeed, many photo from Z5c been shot for a couple of times to try to get best result and almost all S6 photo were just taken in one shot(no more than two).
S6 got very good quality of video as well as photo, I think the OIS is quite helpful for the video part too. I'll probably add Z5c/S6 fast walking video today or tomorrow when I've free time to do more testing.
S6 link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4Nx7PgyQVgJUXF0bUlmcklhLVE&usp=sharing
Z5c link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4Nx7PgyQVgJYjdOcEJPUHJORjQ&usp=sharing
My Z5c is bootloader locked with DRM key so it's still with the low-light denoise algorithm. I may unlock it soon. My S6 with ISOCell, not Sony IMX240 sensor.
TheEndHK said:
Here is my indoor(metro) and night shot(outdoor) campaign of S6 vs. Z5c. All are shared in it's original size without editing other than renaming.
S6:
FHD - Software stabilization disabled, OIS enabled(can't be disable)
UHD - OIS enabled(can't be disable)
Z5c:
FHD - IA software stabilization on
UHD - Standard steadyshot on
All photo and video were shot by stock camera handheld. Sony only allowed to pack ISO in 8MP Manual so all are in 8MP from 100iso to 3200iso, skipped testing 50iso bcoz 100iso already super easy to create handshake. S6 were all from Pro mode(standard auto mode can't select ISO) range from 100iso to 800iso, max is 800 from Samsung offered, can't go higher in Pro mode though sometimes the auto mode could boost up to 1000ISO.
Some photo got little handshake and I've no time to just keep repeat shooting. In my experiences, S6 easily beats Z5c in terms of handshake and focus performance(at very low light S6 focus is superior, more faster and accurate). Indeed, many photo from Z5c been shot for a couple of times to try to get best result and almost all S6 photo were just taken in one shot(no more than two).
S6 got very good quality of video as well as photo, I think the OIS is quite helpful for the video part too. I'll probably add Z5c/S6 fast walking video today or tomorrow when I've free time to do more testing.
S6 link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4Nx7PgyQVgJUXF0bUlmcklhLVE&usp=sharing
Z5c link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4Nx7PgyQVgJYjdOcEJPUHJORjQ&usp=sharing
My Z5c is bootloader locked with DRM key so it's still with the low-light denoise algorithm. I may unlock it soon. My S6 with ISOCell, not Sony IMX240 sensor.
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Thanks for this! I'm sure many appreciate the efforts
Though I'm not sure if its just me, but honestly, I prefer the pics from the Z5. For me, the colors / the overall photo itself looks "natural" or more "realistic". Of course, I do not know the actual colors / conditions of what it really looked like but the colors of the S6 seem to be too artificial (and more orangey / redder tint to most of them).
Just my 2 cents though.
bloodfire1004 said:
Thanks for this! I'm sure many appreciate the efforts
Though I'm not sure if its just me, but honestly, I prefer the pics from the Z5. For me, the colors / the overall photo itself looks "natural" or more "realistic". Of course, I do not know the actual colors / conditions of what it really looked like but the colors of the S6 seem to be too artificial (and more orangey / redder tint to most of them).
Just my 2 cents though.
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You'll need to download all stuffs and check it out on a big PC screen. S6 color can be more better because the default is over. I always preset lower one stepping of saturation and color temp in Pro mode but this time I just let it run default so the result got worse.
If you check the threads on this board, I've said it a dozen times that Sony got better color(my taste) and that is why I buy the Z5c while I already own a S6. In fact, S6 is over whilst Z5c color is also a bit off(under/lower) but just more close to the real scene.
Speaking to the details part, S6 just win hands down without any doubt.
bloodfire1004 said:
Thanks for this! I'm sure many appreciate the efforts
Though I'm not sure if its just me, but honestly, I prefer the pics from the Z5. For me, the colors / the overall photo itself looks "natural" or more "realistic". Of course, I do not know the actual colors / conditions of what it really looked like but the colors of the S6 seem to be too artificial (and more orangey / redder tint to most of them).
Just my 2 cents though.
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The histogram shows the Z5 is more accurate. Viewed a couple of the photos and resizing the S6 photos to match the res and aspect ratio of the Z5c (2448x3264) show the Z5c often delivers more detail but also a bit more 'fine' grain vs blurrier and noiser (noise blurred out but still visible as blotches) S6 photos (depending on ISO level). Also several photos have a photo (PhotoME exif reader) time date with a difference of 15-20 minutes between each camera and same shooting location..
Here is a crop from both at 2448x3264 and with aspect ratio correction. This is from the S6/Z5 ISO 800 comparision. Top is S6, bottom is Z5c. Photo crops from HKs comparision.
EQ2000 said:
The histogram shows the Z5 is more accurate. Viewed a couple of the photos and resizing the S6 photos to match the res and aspect ratio of the Z5c (2448x3264) show the Z5c often delivers more detail but also a bit more 'fine' grain vs blurrier and noiser (noise blurred out but still visible as blotches) S6 photos (depending on ISO level). Also several photos have a photo (PhotoME exif reader) time date with a difference of 15-20 minutes between each camera and same shooting location..
Here is a crop from both at 2448x3264 and with aspect ratio correction. This is from the S6/Z5 ISO 800 comparision. Top is S6, bottom is Z5c. Photo crops from HKs comparision.
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Excuse me Sir. Do you actually know what are you speaking? You always blame S6 got strong noise reduction but when you found noises there you also said that S6 is too bad to has noise.
Sony is all good in your mind even there are indeed more flat area in photo but you'll just think that some noises to simulate fine grain so it's all good.....
To be honest, I've also played a lots of video stuffs, I was a video lover. The film grain isn't real using in this way. In the old days video encoding technologies were not yet mature, the encoder did remove too much things from the source and people was trying to apply some noises in flat area to fraud human eye but this method should not use again in recent year. Some others were trying to simulate old Film noises for special purpose though.
The environment is total stable and it won't change the result after 15 - 20mins like day time so it is meaningless to mention about this, I'm not only focusing to take photo because my friends whatsapp me. Furthermore, the Z5c is freaking hard to get good result in such low light condition, some scenes were actually been taken 4 to 5 times to try to get one with good result. S6 was almost all done in one shot.
TheEndHK said:
Here is my indoor(metro) and night shot(outdoor) campaign of S6 vs. Z5c. All are shared in it's original size without editing other than renaming.
S6:
FHD - Software stabilization disabled, OIS enabled(can't be disable)
UHD - OIS enabled(can't be disable)
Z5c:
FHD - IA software stabilization on
UHD - Standard steadyshot on
All photo and video were shot by stock camera handheld. Sony only allowed to pack ISO in 8MP Manual so all are in 8MP from 100iso to 3200iso, skipped testing 50iso bcoz 100iso already super easy to create handshake. S6 were all from Pro mode(standard auto mode can't select ISO) range from 100iso to 800iso, max is 800 from Samsung offered, can't go higher in Pro mode though sometimes the auto mode could boost up to 1000ISO.
Some photo got little handshake and I've no time to just keep repeat shooting. In my experiences, S6 easily beats Z5c in terms of handshake and focus performance(at very low light S6 focus is superior, more faster and accurate). Indeed, many photo from Z5c been shot for a couple of times to try to get best result and almost all S6 photo were just taken in one shot(no more than two).
S6 got very good quality of video as well as photo, I think the OIS is quite helpful for the video part too. I'll probably add Z5c/S6 fast walking video today or tomorrow when I've free time to do more testing.
S6 link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4Nx7PgyQVgJUXF0bUlmcklhLVE&usp=sharing
Z5c link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4Nx7PgyQVgJYjdOcEJPUHJORjQ&usp=sharing
My Z5c is bootloader locked with DRM key so it's still with the low-light denoise algorithm. I may unlock it soon. My S6 with ISOCell, not Sony IMX240 sensor.
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While an instructive and very interesting comparison, we do loose a bit of something by dealing with differing Fields of View. Some of the loss of detailing that you might otherwise put down to the sensor or software is actually far more about the focus of the lens on the sensor. To see what the detail reproduction is more accurately, we could do with seeing the two framed identically (IE, taking half a step nearer with the Z5 when taking the shot to correct for the different lens).
While I hate to put you to more trouble, could you have a go at this at all? Thanks
TheEndHK said:
Here is my indoor(metro) and night shot(outdoor) campaign of S6 vs. Z5c. All are shared in it's original size without editing other than renaming.
<Text removed>
S6 got very good quality of video as well as photo, I think the OIS is quite helpful for the video part too. I'll probably add Z5c/S6 fast walking video today or tomorrow when I've free time to do more testing.
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Ah, Hong Kong... been there several times. Sorry, but I hate to say it, the video quality on the S6 was not very good. Maybe when standing still it's good, but as soon as you started panning, the video was jittery. In FHD, the Z5 was completely smooth. In 4K, both videos were jittery.
If you're going to critical of the Z5, you should be at least as critical about the S6's poor video performance. You live in HK... a fast paced city. Hold it up and walk around with the crowd, take it on the bus, go up and down the subways stairs. Don't use the Z5 and take video like it's an S6 - judge it on its own merit. If you've ever tried to keep up with a child and record video, you'd know what I mean!
Thanks for the vids and photos... I'll check out the photos later.
TheEndHK said:
You'll need to download all stuffs and check it out on a big PC screen. S6 color can be more better because the default is over. I always preset lower one stepping of saturation and color temp in Pro mode but this time I just let it run default so the result got worse.
If you check the threads on this board, I've said it a dozen times that Sony got better color(my taste) and that is why I buy the Z5c while I already own a S6. In fact, S6 is over whilst Z5c color is also a bit off(under/lower) but just more close to the real scene.
Speaking to the details part, S6 just win hands down without any doubt.
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Okay, I've gone through the pics, comparing both sets of pics side-by-side. First thing I noted was that a few of the Z5 pics were actually less blurry than the S6. LOL! I think I could have done better with the G4.
At 100% size, the Z5 and S6 had nearly the same level of detail across the pics, except for a few pics where either the S6 or Z5 was clearly blurred. The Z5 had smaller text because of the FOV, but it wasn't any harder to read.
I thought the S6 would be the clear winner with OIS, but the pics look very close in quality. Z5 should have slightly better colours, but I can't tell without neutral reference pics. I think you should have spent more time stabilizing the S6. From your pics and video, I'd choose the Z5, since the only thing that's clearly better from the two sets was the Z5's FHD video. xD
Now that I've had the Z5 for a couple of weeks, here are my thoughts:
Here on XDA, we tend to get overly technical (no, really?), so I've been thinking about how a "normal" person would decide to get and use the Z5. I bought the Z5 based on early impressions of its video performance and technical details of the new camera system (dat closed-loop actuator). After taking some family vids running around the house, I'd say it works as advertised.
But it was my SO's reaction (a non-geek) that was more telling. She was curious how the videos would turn out, as I barely paid attention to the phone while it was taking videos. She was impressed and commented that it was so smooth that it looked "professional". As any family man knows, having the "other half" onboard with a tech purchase means life is good! Heh!
The photo quality? Frankly, she didn't notice much difference between the Z5, G4 or even my old Z Ultra. The G4's OIS didn't help much for impromptu pics of people. I had plenty of blurred indoor shots of moving faces with each phone. The Z5 did try harder with face detection and scene selection to get good pics, while the G4 was basically a straight dummy point-and-shoot. The G4's strength is in its manual mode, and in quick snap situations, there was no time to play with the settings. Ironically, I caught some of the best moments - not talking about colour or details - from the Z Ultra, as it was the camera I was most familiar with. LOL!
The Z5 is now my go-to camera for videos. I think anyone who wants to take good family or vacation videos (or even vloggers), the Z5 is probably the best choice for a phone. Personally, I'd still take a real camera on vacations for better pics and optical zoom. Gawd, nothing is more annoying than taking a pic of something and have it show up the size of a pinhead because I couldn't zoom in.
Fulfilling half of my pledge. Other phone died & bartender didn't serve me tripod or OIS this evening. So SA w/o tripod all the way.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157659569050879/with/22496859817/
schecter7 said:
Fulfilling half of my pledge. Other phone died & bartender didn't serve me tripod or OIS this evening. So SA w/o tripod all the way.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157659569050879/with/22496859817/
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Good shots and a good example piece that demonstrates that you can get very good night shots from the Z5. I especially like the carriage.
As is my way, I've been looking through Flickr at S6 shots that random people have posted and have come across images like https://flic.kr/p/A14UVf and https://flic.kr/p/ytEfJq - both of which are noisier than a great many night shots and indoors night shots I've taken with my Z5. These are not isolated examples.
Not very scientific, I know, but it's evidence that getting good results is as much about the person behind the camera as it is about the camera itself. Those S6 shots aren't really any better than anything that the Z5 could produce: detail is relatively similar (though a little better with the S6, probably) and noise is higher. Compare that bar shot with one of mine in MUCH worse lighting (so much darker than the image produced): https://flic.kr/p/AHaxNj . Sure, the detail is smudgy but it is there and there is far less noise, to boot. Not saying that my image is perfect - anything but - but seeing the S6 bar shot above (Full of very ugly noise in an environment with many more light sources) makes me wonder just how much better the S6 would've handled that scene, if at all.
Some of my initial comparative shots.
Just my first day with Z5, and the shots are in difficult conditions sometimes, on purpose.
The Zoom is ok considering it was bad lighting.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsknZUGYc
So I got a crazy deal on a pixel 2 xl off Craigslist and have been comparing the two phones all weekend. I gotta say I was expecting the pixel too be much better. While it is smoother, but not by much, I'm shocked at how close the cameras are!! I've taken multiple pics and asked my wife to tell me which ones look better. I'd say 6 out of 10 times she picks the essential!! She's even notes that the screen looks better on the ph1.
The first pic is with the essential, portrait mode vs pixel 2 portrait mode.
The pixel and pixel 2 line shines when it comes to low lighting condition. Also video recording using EIS is amazing compared to zero in the essential. Hopefully they enable it soon!
xterminater07 said:
The pixel and pixel 2 line shines when it comes to low lighting condition. Also video recording using EIS is amazing compared to zero in the essential. Hopefully they enable it soon!
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I don't recorded too many videos, mainly use my phone for pics. The sample I posted was in low light and I think the essential pic def looks better.
I know overall when you get crazy into the specs etc the pixel cameras are better. But my point is that they're really close in most cases, sometimes ph1 is better and sometimes the pixel is.
Just wanted to post something since the camera updates cause that's where this phone really gets beat up and I think that's not the case anymore!!!
mpetruzz said:
I don't recorded too many videos, mainly use my phone for pics. The sample I posted was in low light and I think the essential pic def looks better.
I know overall when you get crazy into the specs etc the pixel cameras are better. But my point is that they're really close in most cases, sometimes ph1 is better and sometimes the pixel is.
Just wanted to post something since the camera updates cause that's where this phone really gets beat up and I think that's not the case anymore!!!
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Oh I totally agreed, the camera is much better now. However, in real low light such as 2700k floor lamp, or night stand light, it struggles horribly and the pics are washed out, and some times have red tint to it. I would upload pics but I am kinda lazy heheh. Will try to post pics later, but I did a huge comparison between gcam hdr+ modes on reddit if u wanna go to see it.
So here comes a long post, sorry upfront
Being a professional (fashion) photographer, and personally a true lover of good photos and all that entails photo quality, the main thing I look for in a smartphone is the best possible camera. So after some reviews I decided to get the new Samsung S10+.
And I am not happy at all.
Problems:
1. There are only «natural» and «vivid» modes for the screen «calibration». Natural shows really flat tones and saturation, and vivid (with all the other adjustments) can't get anywhere close to render tones appropriately. It washes out all the highlights to blend them with those a bit darker - no depth; some colors pop out intensely (strong reds for example) while others don't match.
Along with that neither of the two modes helps to get the dark tones shown as dark as they really are, the shadows are always too bright, which adds to the washed out look of photos/low contrast.
This alone made me want to return it, until I figured out a way to make it better - by leaving it on Vivid, and turning on blue light filter on 0 - 15% opacity. Not sure why from the blue light filter, but the colors and white balance are all much more true this way than on either natural on vivid, and the contrast is better a bit, so I suggest you try it out
2. Software in the camera has an inexcusable bug (at least I hope it's a bug and it will be fixed with an update soon):
HDR is not selected, I take a photo, immediately go open it, get a spinning circle on the lower part of the screen for maybe a second, and the photo shifts in front of my eyes to an HDR kind of photo.. washes out all the highlights, pumps and fades the shadows, leaving really noticeable blotchy artifacts where there were shadows (being a professional photographer I spot that immediately, so maybe some of you haven't payed attention, but I promise you there are blotchy artifacts in brightened shadows on any S10+ camera). Obviously it does that via software in the second after the photo was taken, so you can notice it only if you open the photo from the camera app immediately after it was taken. If you continue shooting the same scene (same light), for the next immediate shot you won't see it changing, so it obviously remembers some «settings» it applies. Just mentioning this if you go try out, you can see that shift best while changing the scenes you take photos of (brighter, darker, etc).
SO - S10+ takes HDR photos, or makes HDR processing to photos, when HDR is not turned on!
And it does a lousy job at it, because the photos in general look really washed out - the are no whites, no blacks, no contrast or depth. They obviously look better on my calibrated desktop screen, because as I mentioned before, the screen on S10+ lacks in contrast of the shadows as well as in the photos, so putting those together - all the photos on S10+ screen look dull and without contrast. Other issue is that most of the times when I tried photographing the same scene with HDR on and HDR off, photos looked the same, and in some cases with HDR on it would do just a stronger HDR. Please, please, does anyone have any idea how to stop it from processing photos taken without HDR to make them look like I actually wanted that dullness?
P.s. today I did a test with Note9 and S9+, neither have that problem.
3. This is not just Samsung's problem, at least I know Huawei Mate 20Pro has the same problem - photo effects inside the camera and extra ones that you can get are so outdated that they are unusable. In today's world driven by instagram and all the apps for color «filters» (VSCO, Snapseed, etc), these on Samsung are prehistoric. I tried to find a way to make my own and load them somehow, but can't find a way. Any ideas?
4. Same scene photographed with S10+ is 3mb, and with my older Samsung S7 it's 4mb. How can that be? Why isn't there no more a setting in the camera app to choose resolution?
Looking forward to your thoughts! I love everything else about this phone, but can't stand those HDR photos from the get go, would hate to go return it just because of it..
Go to Camera, settings, save options, check if you have "HEIF pictures" enabled.
This is the same format iPhones use now if i'm not mistaken. This format saves the pictures in half size as compared to JPEG.
Unselect it and test new pictures if it improves to your picture taste.
Another option is to use GCAM (Google Camera) app. This app is directly from Google for the Pixel phones converted to use in our Galaxy S10 phones. You can get them here in XDA
HEIF pictures are not enabled.
I tried to find GCAM mod for Exynos S10+, but can't find one.. since you mentioned it, do you maybe know of one somewhere? Not sure if I'm missing something, new to XDA..
Thanks!
jbalic said:
So here comes a long post, sorry upfront
Being a professional (fashion) photographer, and personally a true lover of good photos and all that entails photo quality, the main thing I look for in a smartphone is the best possible camera. So after some reviews I decided to get the new Samsung S10+.
And I am not happy at all.
Problems:
1. There are only «natural» and «vivid» modes for the screen «calibration». Natural shows really flat tones and saturation, and vivid (with all the other adjustments) can't get anywhere close to render tones appropriately. It washes out all the highlights to blend them with those a bit darker - no depth; some colors pop out intensely (strong reds for example) while others don't match.
Along with that neither of the two modes helps to get the dark tones shown as dark as they really are, the shadows are always too bright, which adds to the washed out look of photos/low contrast.
This alone made me want to return it, until I figured out a way to make it better - by leaving it on Vivid, and turning on blue light filter on 0 - 15% opacity. Not sure why from the blue light filter, but the colors and white balance are all much more true this way than on either natural on vivid, and the contrast is better a bit, so I suggest you try it out
2. Software in the camera has an inexcusable bug (at least I hope it's a bug and it will be fixed with an update soon):
HDR is not selected, I take a photo, immediately go open it, get a spinning circle on the lower part of the screen for maybe a second, and the photo shifts in front of my eyes to an HDR kind of photo.. washes out all the highlights, pumps and fades the shadows, leaving really noticeable blotchy artifacts where there were shadows (being a professional photographer I spot that immediately, so maybe some of you haven't payed attention, but I promise you there are blotchy artifacts in brightened shadows on any S10+ camera). Obviously it does that via software in the second after the photo was taken, so you can notice it only if you open the photo from the camera app immediately after it was taken. If you continue shooting the same scene (same light), for the next immediate shot you won't see it changing, so it obviously remembers some «settings» it applies. Just mentioning this if you go try out, you can see that shift best while changing the scenes you take photos of (brighter, darker, etc).
SO - S10+ takes HDR photos, or makes HDR processing to photos, when HDR is not turned on!
And it does a lousy job at it, because the photos in general look really washed out - the are no whites, no blacks, no contrast or depth. They obviously look better on my calibrated desktop screen, because as I mentioned before, the screen on S10+ lacks in contrast of the shadows as well as in the photos, so putting those together - all the photos on S10+ screen look dull and without contrast. Other issue is that most of the times when I tried photographing the same scene with HDR on and HDR off, photos looked the same, and in some cases with HDR on it would do just a stronger HDR. Please, please, does anyone have any idea how to stop it from processing photos taken without HDR to make them look like I actually wanted that dullness?
P.s. today I did a test with Note9 and S9+, neither have that problem.
3. This is not just Samsung's problem, at least I know Huawei Mate 20Pro has the same problem - photo effects inside the camera and extra ones that you can get are so outdated that they are unusable. In today's world driven by instagram and all the apps for color «filters» (VSCO, Snapseed, etc), these on Samsung are prehistoric. I tried to find a way to make my own and load them somehow, but can't find a way. Any ideas?
4. Same scene photographed with S10+ is 3mb, and with my older Samsung S7 it's 4mb. How can that be? Why isn't there no more a setting in the camera app to choose resolution?
Looking forward to your thoughts! I love everything else about this phone, but can't stand those HDR photos from the get go, would hate to go return it just because of it..
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best camera phone?
Pixel3
Mate20Pro
Yes, I have a S10.
Its the second one, the first was so bad with the screen and with the camera.
Se Second one is good in camera and very good in the screen.
But it not compares with my Mate20Pro in the camera.
Well, Pixel3 and Mate20Pro were definitely top choices along with S10+, shades decided.. I have a week left to return it and go for either of these two if I don't find a way to resolve this, or decide to play lottery by waiting on a software upgrade which would fix it. And that doesn't seem like a good idea..
What was wrong with the screen and camera of your first S10? Mine feels very wrong, my first instinct was to go exchange it, but then I tried out others in different stores and got the same thing with them concerning screen and camera :/ stunned it could be this awful.
jbalic said:
Well, Pixel3 and Mate20Pro were definitely top choices along with S10+, shades decided.. I have a week left to return it and go for either of these two if I don't find a way to resolve this, or decide to play lottery by waiting on a software upgrade which would fix it. And that doesn't seem like a good idea..
What was wrong with the screen and camera of your first S10? Mine feels very wrong, my first instinct was to go exchange it, but then I tried out others in different stores and got the same thing with them concerning screen and camera :/ stunned it could be this awful.
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Click to collapse
my first S10 was updated and the camera was very bad.
The screen was dull, with low brightness comparing with my Mate20Pro.
This one didn't update an the camera is soo much good but the detail that my Mate20Pro captures its insane.
And the screen its top notch!
I think I will not update the software... for now..
For me, its a display problem. I looked at this photo comparing the XS and the S10 https:// photos5.appleinsider.com/gallery/30033-48976-iPhone-XS-Max-and-Samsung-Galaxy-S10-Plus-Human-Portrait-mode-l.jpg and compared it side to side from my s10 to my macbook and on the S10 its pale, like the guy is dead. What's the problem with the display?? I shouldnt have to activate color adjustment, no ?
Color Washed
Just a heads up to everyone who has the S10. The color saturation of the screen even when Vivid is enabled doesn't display the saturation correctly... To fix this "enable blue light filter" and set it at the lowest possible then go back and look at a picture you will see how it is no longer washed out. I assume they are going to fix this in a future update. Cheers ?
---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------
XDromeda said:
For me, its a display problem. I looked at this photo comparing the XS and the S10 https:// photos5.appleinsider.com/gallery/30033-48976-iPhone-XS-Max-and-Samsung-Galaxy-S10-Plus-Human-Portrait-mode-l.jpg and compared it side to side from my s10 to my macbook and on the S10 its pale, like the guy is dead. What's the problem with the display?? I shouldnt have to activate color adjustment, no ?
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Turn on Blue Light Filter and set the effect to minimum. This will correct the "dull" look and restore the full color saturation
jbalic said:
Well, Pixel3 and Mate20Pro were definitely top choices along with S10+, shades decided.. I have a week left to return it and go for either of these two if I don't find a way to resolve this, or decide to play lottery by waiting on a software upgrade which would fix it. And that doesn't seem like a good idea..
What was wrong with the screen and camera of your first S10? Mine feels very wrong, my first instinct was to go exchange it, but then I tried out others in different stores and got the same thing with them concerning screen and camera :/ stunned it could be this awful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Turn on Blue light filter and set the effect to minimum, then go and check the color saturation ? I'm sure they will be fixing this in a future update.
dmdelgado said:
Turn on Blue light filter and set the effect to minimum, then go and check the color saturation I'm sure they will be fixing this in a future update.
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I wrote in my original post that the best you can get out of this screen is by turning on blue light at minimum; managed to find that, helps at least 80%. But the camera HDR shadowless dimensionless photos - worst software processing of any Samsung phone up to date. I have 5 days to return it for full amount, so I'll do that, don't want to take chances on waiting for that update if it even comes.. Then I'll just wait a bit for either them to fix it and I buy it again (I am only sad to leave the superior battery and wide angle camera, that's it) or wait for a new Huawei or Pixel to see what they're up to.
dmdelgado said:
Turn on Blue light filter and set the effect to minimum, then go and check the color saturation I'm sure they will be fixing this in a future update.
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Thank you so much!!! You made my day guys!
Professional photographer yet you don't know about HEIF?
As a professional fashion photographer you should also know that you shouldn't rely on what the picture looks like on the display because many different factors come into play. Some displays and brighter than others just like some are for saturated. As long as you know that you're lighting and exposure is correct you should be fine.
On another note you can also save a raw file of the image.
-Alan said:
As a professional fashion photographer you should also know that you shouldn't rely on what the picture looks like on the display because many different factors come into play. Some displays and brighter than others just like some are for saturated. As long as you know that you're lighting and exposure is correct you should be fine.
On another note you can also save a raw file of the image.
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Corv0 said:
Professional photographer yet you don't know about HEIF?
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@Corv0:
how can HEIF help me with lousy color and luminosity rendering (screen problem) and bad software processing (camera problem)?
@-Alan: maybe you should read my first post again? I already wrote that the screen on S10+ is poorly calibrated (no really dark tones = bad contrast, color shift, natural and vivid modes are both awful, blue light filter on low opacity saves it mostly, still not good enough compared to most other phone screens I used); and that photos look a bit better contrast wise on my calibrated desktop screen. That doesn't make it ok if I use a lousy screen on my phone all the time and look at photos on it which are miles away from saying "yeah, I know amoled phone screen can't be anywhere close to my Eizo but it's good enough for a phone".
There will always be compromises, but this is too big of a compromise if everything looks awful on the screen of a phone I use extensively every day.
That goes for the screen, and then there is the added problem of bad processing of photos from the camera, which I can't counteract on except shooting everything raw. So when you mention being ok with knowing the exposure is ok - for everyday use of phone camera I will never shoot anything in RAW because that would require spending extra hours and hours to postprocess everything on my own to usable jpegs, which is not why raw is there in phones in the first place. Camera in a phone like this should give you good enough starting point of their jpeg processing so you don't need to do it on your own to make it look ok for everyday stuff. This one doesn't. And if it forces users to shoot everything in RAW to make it look ok, that's a huge fail. On any professional SLR camera you will shoot RAW when it's important or desired to get the look of a jpeg better than the one the camera processes, but you can rely on mostly any SLR camera to give you a decent jpeg if your exposure is ok (shutter speed, aperture, WB, focus, ISO). S10+ simply does not produce a good enough jpeg to start with when the exposure is ok, because it processes that jpeg as a lousy HDR when HDR is off, and by lousy I mean shadowless, flat, wihout any depth and dimension. That is not my problem while taking photos (exposure wise), it's a software problem.
Well then either wait for updates or change phone Mr Photographer, I personally dont agree with you at any point so I can't provide any help either.
Corv0 said:
Well then either wait for updates or change phone Mr Photographer, I personally dont agree with you at any point so I can't provide any help either.
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Lousy puns with no merit, but ok. Still didn't get a reply from you - how does HEIF help anything I outlined as issues on this phone? This MRS Photographer doesn't know so I'd be happy if you could enlighten me? Thanks.
jbalic said:
Lousy puns with no merit, but ok. Still didn't get a reply from you - how does HEIF help anything I outlined as issues on this phone? This MRS Photographer doesn't know so I'd be happy if you could enlighten me? Thanks.
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I never said HEIF is supposed to help anything.
jbalic said:
4. Same scene photographed with S10+ is 3mb, and with my older Samsung S7 it's 4mb. How can that be? Why isn't there no more a setting in the camera app to choose resolution?
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Just pointing out how this stupid question contradicts the rest of your boasting around, you should have studied that in your course.
But yes, you can change resolution by changing aspect ratio in the main interface, there's absolutely no other reason to provide multiple resolutions besides for ratio testing, if you are so worried about size you can digitally reduce the resolution in the post-processing phase.
*edited to remove accidental double post
Corv0 said:
I never said HEIF is supposed to help anything.
Just pointing out how this stupid question contradicts the rest of your boasting around, you should have studied that in your course.
But yes, you can change resolution by changing aspect ratio in the main interface, there's absolutely no other reason to provide multiple resolutions besides for ratio testing, if you are so worried about size you can digitally reduce the resolution in the post-processing phase.
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You are really trolling me here.. first you write "Professional photographer yet you don't know about HEIF?", than I ask what you meant by that since I never mentioned HEIF anywhere, besides answering a question of another poster if it was turned on maybe, and the answer was no. HEIF has no influence on any problem I wrote of. Trolling.
As for the resolution, it hardly underestimates my profession or knowledge, which, I assure you is vast on matters like this. Older Samsung phones had a choice between two resolutions for the same aspect ratio (for example 4:3 in Samsung S7 you can choose 12M, or 6.2M; for 16:9 9.1M or 3.7M etc.). On S10+ there is only one resolution for 4:3 or any ratio, and its low.
So I still see no merit to your undermining my knowledge in what I do professionally, except to troll or just be rude.
jbalic said:
You are really trolling me here.. first you write "Professional photographer yet you don't know about HEIF?", than I ask what you meant by that since I never mentioned HEIF anywhere, besides answering a question of another poster if it was turned on maybe, and the answer was no. HEIF has no influence on any problem I wrote of. Trolling.
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Boy, HEIF is why files of the same resolution and scene occupy less space, other users already explained that, you need to engage a few more brain cells before calling trolls.
No need to be hostile because you failed to prove yourself, move on with your life.
Say "cheese", then rate this thread to express how photos taken with the Sony Xperia 5 come out. A higher rating indicates that photos offer rich color (without over-saturating), sharp detail (with all subjects in-focus), and appropriate exposure (with even lighting).
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!
Having this phone along with Pixel 4, I can say that X5 photo quality is mixed bag. The most frustrating thing is "ghost imaging" of moving objects, not even a fast ones. Color accuracy is pretty good. Camera app itself still needs some work. It's not convenient to use and it's considerably slower that Pixel 4 one. Focusing system could be better too.
WarVic said:
Having this phone along with Pixel 4, I can say that X5 photo quality is mixed bag. The most frustrating thing is "ghost imaging" of moving objects, not even a fast ones. Color accuracy is pretty good. Camera app itself still needs some work. It's not convenient to use and it's considerably slower that Pixel 4 one. Focusing system could be better too.
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On Manual Mode the phone is unbeatable.
doministry said:
On Manual Mode the phone is unbeatable.
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Unfortunately it's not true. I wish it was true but it's definitely not. I played a lot with manual mode on Xperia 5. I does produce very good, with plenty of details, true to life colours, "Pixel grade" photos in good light condition. Any other conditions different from ideal and Xperia photos start to fall apart. Making pictures of the moving objects in light conditions just a bit different from ideal is a failure as well. I'm getting "ghost", "double" images of my kids nearly all the time. That's not acceptable for flagship camera-phone. The same thing happen when you make photos in the late evening or night. It's pretty much impossible to use Xperia 5 in this conditions without tripod. Sony just unable to compensate even a very minimal hand shake where as it's not a problem for Pixel or flagship Huawei devices. So I took a lot of photos from Pixel 4 and Xperia 5 in the same conditions for comparison to choose the best one to keep. I took a month for me to make the final decision. So I decided to keep Pixel 4 just for much better camera system. I'll give a chance to Xperia 5 Plus this year though.
WarVic said:
Unfortunately it's not true. I wish it was true but it's definitely not. I played a lot with manual mode on Xperia 5. I does produce very good, with plenty of details, true to life colours, "Pixel grade" photos in good light condition. Any other conditions different from ideal and Xperia photos start to fall apart. Making pictures of the moving objects in light conditions just a bit different from ideal is a failure as well. I'm getting "ghost", "double" images of my kids nearly all the time. That's not acceptable for flagship camera-phone. The same thing happen when you make photos in the late evening or night. It's pretty much impossible to use Xperia 5 in this conditions without tripod. Sony just unable to compensate even a very minimal hand shake where as it's not a problem for Pixel or flagship Huawei devices. So I took a lot of photos from Pixel 4 and Xperia 5 in the same conditions for comparison to choose the best one to keep. I took a month for me to make the final decision. So I decided to keep Pixel 4 just for much better camera system. I'll give a chance to Xperia 5 Plus this year though.
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That means you have no clue about manual mode. I get all I want. You just have to use ISO and shutter speed and all that stuff correctly. That's it. It's obvious for any person knowing anything about photogtaphy....
I don't have any ghosting. Any. Sorry. And the Android 10 update makes things even better. Just yesterday had a chance to make some pics in difficult conditions and it worked great.
https://flic.kr/p/2io5e3E
https://flic.kr/p/2io2KfM
I don't need to have a clue about manual mode. Xperia 5 is not DSLR camera, you know. The main purpose of any flagship smartphone, camera-phone in particular, is ability to make perfect shots at any time as fast as possible without playing with manual mode. Manual mode is just a good addition (for geeks), nothing more. Mediocre auto mode isn't forgivable thing for such expensive device. Kids don't allow to tinker with manual mode - they simply won't wait. And I don't like to miss a moment. I can give you samples with "ghost" images if you like. Certainly Xperia 5 isn't up for competition right now and I have doubts that Sony Alpha team took any part in Xperia 1 / 5 development. They have a beer together, I guess . That's a main contribution.
---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------
In addition, Xperia 5 app launch speed is ridiculously slow compared to all phones I had for the last 2 years. Focusing system is disappointing as well. Quite often it just misses and too many times I came across the problem of inability to focus on places / objects which was not a problem Pixel 4. That's not good either.
WarVic said:
I don't need to have a clue about manual mode. Xperia 5 is not DSLR camera, you know. The main purpose of any flagship smartphone, camera-phone in particular, is ability to make perfect shots at any time as fast as possible without playing with manual mode. Manual mode is just a good addition (for geeks), nothing more. Mediocre auto mode isn't forgivable thing for such expensive device. Kids don't allow to tinker with manual mode - they simply won't wait. And I don't like to miss a moment. I can give you samples with "ghost" images if you like. Certainly Xperia 5 isn't up for competition right now and I have doubts that Sony Alpha team took any part in Xperia 1 / 5 development. They have a beer together, I guess . That's a main contribution.
---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------
In addition, Xperia 5 app launch speed is ridiculously slow compared to all phones I had for the last 2 years. Focusing system is disappointing as well. Quite often it just misses and too many times I came across the problem of inability to focus on places / objects which was not a problem Pixel 4. That's not good either.
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Wrong. Manual mode is exactly to be used consciously. If you want effect you think before you do it. That's why it's MANUAL. And than why do you want to make photos if you don't care about basics? I think it's just plain ingnorace. Than why do you even bother writing on forums. Learn something, and than discuss - don't expect your ignorance will be seen as a good thing.
Another silly thing - yes, phone cameras are semi pro, for some years. And if they're not, again - why do you expect any good results from it?
Let's face it, you need an idiot camera, than buy Pixel. Leave the best for those who can actually use it.
doministry said:
Wrong. Manual mode is exactly to be used consciously. If you want effect you think before you do it. That's why it's MANUAL. And than why do you want to make photos if you don't care about basics? I think it's just plain ingnorace. Than why do you even bother writing on forums. Learn something, and than discuss - don't expect your ignorance will be seen as a good thing.
Another silly thing - yes, phone cameras are semi pro, for some years. And if they're not, again - why do you expect any good results from it?
Let's face it, you need an idiot camera, than buy Pixel. Leave the best for those who can actually use it.
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I think you completely forgot what are you talking about - what really is a tiny camera on a dinky phone (whatever good and powerful it is) and what's the primary purpose of it. And you're calling the best smartphone camera on the market for quite a while by now (not just my personal opinion by the way) - Google Pixel camera - an idiotic one?! That is complete ignorance and nonsense! You certainly never had a Pixel phone. That's explains everything.
Please find attached one of my Xperia 5 photo. It's an epic failure indeed, man. An it's not just a one-off shot. Can't remember that I saw anything like that coming from flagship smartphone camera.
Good luck with your "advanced, for professionals only" Xperia ). Cheers!
WarVic said:
I think you completely forgot what are you talking about - what really is a tiny camera on a dinky phone (whatever good and powerful it is) and what's the primary purpose of it. And you're calling the best smartphone camera on the market for quite a while by now (not just my personal opinion by the way) - Google Pixel camera - an idiotic one?! That is complete ignorance and nonsense! You certainly never had a Pixel phone. That's explains everything.
Please find attached one of my Xperia 5 photo. It's an epic failure indeed, man. An it's not just a one-off shot. Can't remember that I saw anything like that coming from flagship smartphone camera.
Good luck with your "advanced, for professionals only" Xperia ). Cheers!
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Oh, I forgot to mention Xperia 5 complete inability to handle lens flares which was the issue for me not just once, very limited HDR mode and ... inability to shoot in RAW ("Idiotic" Pixel does have RAW!). Last one Sony's omission is laughable for "professional grade, Sony Alpha team tuned" flagship smartphone camera to say at least! And once again, Xperia focusing system is just horrible (maybe perfect for you though if you're not familiar with others). This is my final 2 cents. Cheers
WarVic said:
I think you completely forgot what are you talking about - what really is a tiny camera on a dinky phone (whatever good and powerful it is) and what's the primary purpose of it. And you're calling the best smartphone camera on the market for quite a while by now (not just my personal opinion by the way) - Google Pixel camera - an idiotic one?! That is complete ignorance and nonsense! You certainly never had a Pixel phone. That's explains everything.
Please find attached one of my Xperia 5 photo. It's an epic failure indeed, man. An it's not just a one-off shot. Can't remember that I saw anything like that coming from flagship smartphone camera.
Good luck with your "advanced, for professionals only" Xperia ). Cheers!
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Well, it's good to be able to understand things you comment. I didn't say Google is an idiotic camera, I just said you need an idiots camera - camera which does anything for you, you just press the shutter.
Google is known for its Auto Mode. But as compared with any phone with manual controls, it fails. There are tons of real life comparisons on YouTube to prove that. But to know that you have to understand anything about photography, which you don't. Which you prove again with your arguments - first about the tiny camera and than about RAW. It's obvious none of these opinions are yours actually.
Now, about the photo you enclosed - maybe your phone is broken, I don't know. Never seen anything like that, and I was never able to fail like this although I've made thousands of photos.
doministry said:
Well, it's good to be able to understand things you comment. I didn't say Google is an idiotic camera, I just said you need an idiots camera - camera which does anything for you, you just press the shutter.
Google is known for its Auto Mode. But as compared with any phone with manual controls, it fails. There are tons of real life comparisons on YouTube to prove that. But to know that you have to understand anything about photography, which you don't. Which you prove again with your arguments - first about the tiny camera and than about RAW. It's obvious none of these opinions are yours actually.
Now, about the photo you enclosed - maybe your phone is broken, I don't know. Never seen anything like that, and I was never able to fail like this although I've made thousands of photos.
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It's clear that you're just a blind Sony fan pretending to be a really cool professional photographer using highly sophisticated, for clever people only, MANUAL mode and .... "professionally" taking photos by smartphone camera . That pretty muck explains everything. You made me laugh, man. I like you for that . I just say it again, Xperia 5 has subbar camera system suitable for Sony fanboys only. An not only Pixel 1 or 2 but also most modern Chinese phones like Huawei, Xiaomi and Realme do much better job with their camera than glorious Sony Xperia. Unfortunately that's the brutal truth. And you have to suck it up and go on with Xperia 5 - the choice of professional photographers .
WarVic said:
It's clear that you're just a blind Sony fan pretending to be a really cool professional photographer using highly sophisticated, for clever people only, MANUAL mode and .... "professionally" taking photos by smartphone camera . That pretty muck explains everything. You made me laugh, man. I like you for that . I just say it again, Xperia 5 has subbar camera system suitable for Sony fanboys only. An not only Pixel 1 or 2 but also most modern Chinese phones like Huawei, Xiaomi and Realme do much better job with their camera than glorious Sony Xperia. Unfortunately that's the brutal truth. And you have to suck it up and go on with Xperia 5 - the choice of professional photographers .
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A classic - personal insults instead of any real argument. Typical forum dumb..ss. But the fact you can't even make a proper photo because you're drunk, doesn't mean the discussion with you is in any way better
No insults or rants against the brand. I gave you real arguments of subbar Xperia 5 cameras compared to Google Pixel 2 / 3 / 4, Huawei Mate 10 Pro / 20 Pro / P30. I used all these camera-phones for more than enough time to compare with Xperia 5.
So personally for you I repeat my arguments against "master of mobile photography" Sony Xperia 5:
- inferior focusing system - slower than others, unable to focus properly to damn often on places where rivals smartphones can do easily,
- painfully slow Camera app start up, Camera app itself is not really good & polished as others,
- no dedicated night mode. Automatic one isn't good enough compare to rivals,
- inability to make night shots in Manual mode without tripod (blurry mess is guaranteed),
- struggle to make any decent photos in extreme or not perfect light conditions,
- camera lenses / glass cover flares,
- not good enough dynamic range,
- inferior HDR mode (little to none difference when it's on), inability to use it in Auto mode,
- "ghost" imaging of moving objects.
I saw all above mentioned issues by my own eyes and this is not something I was expected to come across on Alpha team tweaked Sony Xperia flagship smartphone camera!
WarVic said:
...
Please find attached one of my Xperia 5 photo. It's an epic failure indeed, man. An it's not just a one-off shot. Can't remember that I saw anything like that coming from flagship smartphone camera
....
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Hi there,
Not to argue for or against Xperia 5 camera(s), but I just want to point out that your phone was perhaps defective.
In all the pictures I've done with Xperia 5, I've never seen any ghost image such as in your example, not even at night.
I can however get blurred moving subjects (but no double image) if taken at too slow shutter speed, as is the case with any small sensor camera.
This happens for example at night in auto-mode on Xperia 5 (ex: 1/16): too slow to shoot people, in which case we must set the speed in manual mode to avoid blur (ex: 1/64).
Cheers too!
chgr said:
Hi there,
Not to argue for or against Xperia 5 camera(s), but I just want to point out that your phone was perhaps defective.
In all the pictures I've done with Xperia 5, I've never seen any ghost image such as in your example, not even at night.
I can however get blurred moving subjects (but no double image) if taken at too slow shutter speed, as is the case with any small sensor camera.
This happens for example at night in auto-mode on Xperia 5 (ex: 1/16): too slow to shoot people, in which case we must set the speed in manual mode to avoid blur (ex: 1/64).
Cheers too!
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You could be right but I'm not sure. Can't remember that any of my smartphones had faulty camera in the past. I took photos both in Auto and Manual mode (HDR was enabled, nothing more changed) and that "double images" of moving objects persisted in light conditions a bit different from ideal. Just slight movement of my kids was enough to get unusable photo. Very disappointing. Luckily I sold that phone already and ordered another one. I'll check your suggestion once I get it.
Thanks
WarVic said:
You could be right but I'm not sure. Can't remember that any of my smartphones had faulty camera in the past. I took photos both in Auto and Manual mode (HDR was enabled, nothing more changed) and that "double images" of moving objects persisted in light conditions a bit different from ideal. Just slight movement of my kids was enough to get unusable photo. Very disappointing. Luckily I sold that phone already and ordered another one. I'll check your suggestion once I get it.
Thanks
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Ok. I tried lots of pictures exactly as you explain: HDR ON (both with auto and manual), lots of light in background and a moving subject not well lit. Basically I did a moving person against a bright window.
I did get about 1 in 20 of these back-lit photos displaying a ghost image at the limit between dark and light areas. So I agree the phone still exhibits a little bit of the same issues as was the case in older models.
The algorithm to blend the multiple images in HDR is not yet perfect.
Not sure about the Pixel 4. It's probably better at this. I personally had the pixel 2 and sold it exactly because I was getting consistently blurred pictures of people and animals in HDR mode, much worse than with Xperia XZ2 which I had at the same time. Problem is Pixel 2 could only take nice pictures with HDR enabled, otherwise was terrible quality.
So in my day to day usage, I normally don't get this issue with the X5 which I use mostly in auto mode. Tip: if you absolutely need to avoid HDR in auto mode (besides the obvious advice not to shoot people in backlit conditions), uncheck "Object tracking" in settings, and use your finger to set focus + exposure on your subject before taking the pic. This in effect prevents HDR (Backlit) mode.
So now the only time I use manual mode is for night time shots to avoid blurred faces with 1/32 or 1/64 speed. I just wish Sony would add an option in settings so the user could set a lower speed limit that would apply to Eye/ face detected subjects only.
Thanks for good advises. I'll certainly use them once I get the phone. Regarding Pixel 2, I can't remember getting any blurred / out of focus photos from it. Quite surprised to hear it. Anyway, Pixel 3 seems ironed all the issues of previous models. I still consider it one of the best camera-phones right now. Also it's very cheap now too. Overall it is one of the best phones I've ever had and that's why I decided to keep it as a backup phone. Pixel 4 appeared to be roughly the same thing with worse battery. That was the reason for getting rid of it.
I did enjoy Xperia 5 too though. Hence I gave it one more chance and re-order it. I wish that Sony fix current issues with it or will do it in future. One of them, a very noticeable one, the camera app launch speed and its overall performance. I want it to be on pair with older Pixel 3 one, not any slower. Cheers
WarVic said:
Thanks for good advises. I'll certainly use them once I get the phone. Regarding Pixel 2, I can't remember getting any blurred / out of focus photos from it. Quite surprised to hear it. Anyway, Pixel 3 seems ironed all the issues of previous models. I still consider it one of the best camera-phones right now. Also it's very cheap now too. Overall it is one of the best phones I've ever had and that's why I decided to keep it as a backup phone. Pixel 4 appeared to be roughly the same thing with worse battery. That was the reason for getting rid of it.
I did enjoy Xperia 5 too though. Hence I gave it one more chance and re-order it. I wish that Sony fix current issues with it or will do it in future. One of them, a very noticeable one, the camera app launch speed and its overall performance. I want it to be on pair with older Pixel 3 one, not any slower. Cheers
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I guess now that X5 is getting much cheaper it's still interesting, but I wouldn't expect big software improvements to come except for maybe Photo Pro app if Sony is nice to us.
Personally I think the next version X5 II should bring major improvements in photo and we will soon know if that's true with the X1 II:
Photo Pro app vs current camera app (should bring better speed, stability and features if it lives up to current Cinema Pro app)
Bigger sensors = better low light shots
Faster and better focus (with TOF and dual pixel)
Eye tracking on pets (I have a cat and a dog)
... That's of course if it does indeed come out.
It's good enough.
Overall it's an acceptable camera system. I agree it has some flaws, but I knew that going in. I purchased used on eBay (MUCH more affordable), and of course read and viewed many reviews that outline these flaws. It's good enough for snapshots or Instagram or times when you need a pic of something when your out and about. I take a digital camera with me when I know I am going somewhere that I am going to photograph stuff. One reviewer summed up nicely what the big issue is here; Sony makes camera sensors for a lot of other phone companies and makes some of the absolute best digital cameras in the world, so how did they let this slide?
WarVic said:
I think you completely forgot what are you talking about - what really is a tiny camera on a dinky phone (whatever good and powerful it is) and what's the primary purpose of it. And you're calling the best smartphone camera on the market for quite a while by now (not just my personal opinion by the way) - Google Pixel camera - an idiotic one?! That is complete ignorance and nonsense! You certainly never had a Pixel phone. That's explains everything.
Please find attached one of my Xperia 5 photo. It's an epic failure indeed, man. An it's not just a one-off shot. Can't remember that I saw anything like that coming from flagship smartphone camera.
Good luck with your "advanced, for professionals only" Xperia ). Cheers!
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Looking at your pictures, i assume you received a faulty phone