I'm ignorant when it comes to head units, so please ELI5.
1. Over on /r/CarAV these Chinese Android head units have a pretty bad reputation. The mantra over there seems to be you get what you pay for compared to the more expensive brand name head units, especially in terms of sound quality. Is this true? In what ways are these units inferior? How/why is the sound inferior?
I've heard reports of bad QC (poor soldering), low quality hardware, buggy software, but not sure if it's true or not.
I'm asking here because over on /r/CarAV i'm not sure if they're just HU snobs and dismissive of anything not brand name.
2. Why aren't there any North American/European made Android head units? Why are they all Chinese? At first I thought the Android HU market was analogous to the Android step top box market, but even in that market there are North American/European brands (eg. Amazon Fire TV, WeTek, etc) that offer products at pretty competitive prices.
Well, I'm not an audiophile. The sound that comes out of mine is decent. I have stock speakers, though. The last time I researched the more expensive units, their CPUs really sucked and they weren't very cusomizable. It's 2 different ways of thinking. I can play FLACs, the sound is clear enough for me, but that's not the criteria I use to decide what stereo I want to put in my car. To me the other head units are over priced garbage.
To put it more clearly, I want a car computer that can also play music. I don't want a radio that's sort of trying to be a car computer, kind of. Maybe. The lower price also means I can upgrade easier to keep up with newer processor speeds.
Compared to the stock OEM head unit I had, it's at least as good, if not better. It's not high powered, so it could benefit from an external amp if you want more than what the OEM factory stock head unit offered. QC on the units seems to be good enough, but of course there will be a bad lemon from time to time. I don't think the major name brands offer too much over these chinese head units in functionality, but they will have better high level preamp outputs and built in crossovers and such which the chinese head units doesn't offer. If these are big issues or non-issues depends on what you are going to use it for and what you expect from it. You'll never win a sound competition with a chinese head unit, but it will perform more than good enough for everyday use while you're driving around.
Reddit is known to hate things...
I have tried to tell them my Joying is great, but normally people who have that negative opinion do not want to listen to anything positive about these head units
The Chinese units rely on the complete chipset by AllWinner or Rockchip. Those have a decent DSP as part of the overall chipset and since this is already reference designed by the chipset vendor there is no need for additional investments into porting over the audio signal to a separate DSP - which we are talking 1 year of development.
For a traditional Japanese vendor they have years of development invested in higher quality DSPs and some (like Sony I believe) even have their own.
Then there are more minute-yet-still-critical reasons. For one, the head unit needs a clean, well shielded hand-off to an external amp. And it needs to be high powered (at least 4V like the higher-end Japanese brands rather than the 2V max of the Chinese brands) in order to send a clear signal into an external amp. For two, if the DSP is poor, it at least needs to be able to take a digital file and hand it off digitally via SPDIF, HDMI, or other optical-type output. This way there is no digital-to-analog and then back to digital double conversion. No Chinese vendor does this yet.
If you wanted to be a USA-based vendor and work with QCOM (AptX, etc.) that's a $10M investment with about a 2-year development cycle. You would own the market and find your way into all sorts of additional OEM projects beyond simply audio and video so it can be done...but getting someone excited to drop that kind of money into a market perceived to be going further towards purely an OEM play is hard to find.
There are other issues with the Chinese units. The apps, software, etc. evolves so damn fast they have a tough time keeping up. Being in China it is difficult to get accurate canbus modules with appropriate wiring schematics - so those custom faceplate units don't work as seamless as they could.
Until then you have to decide...do you want the phenomenal Android capabilities and openness of Chinese units with poor audio, or the limited features of Android Auto/CarPlay through boring and un-modifiable traditional vendors but have outstanding audio quality?
It's total BS that you need 4V in order to get a clear signal to an external amp. It's perfectly possible to get a clear signal even with 2V, but it puts higher demands on shielding of the signal wire. Chinese head units doesn't have poor audio quality, they are simply not what you would call high end or state-of-the-art. For a normal person listening to music while driving, the audio quality is more than good enough. Heck, you can even install good amps and good speakers and get great sound out of these, people are doing it all the time. You'll never get what you'd call outstanding audio quality in a car no matter what brand of head unit you have. The internal space in a car simply doesn't lend itself for good acoustics compared to a proper listening room at home. I'm pretty sure that for the needs of 90% of people, these units are more than good enough.
Why are most universal Chinese android radio head units having poor wifi/ Bluetooth. Hopefully there a Wi-Fi/Bluetooth usb dongle out there. Hey if anyone know what model or were I can get one please share some links
Related
Hey guys, looking for a new double din android headunit and wondering what the best ones around $300-400 USD are. Wondering what ones are best also how is the dac quality? I'm running a decent system and running two amplifiers from my headunit. Wanting to know how they'd compare i'm running a standard sony headunit at the moment with 4x55w output.
Cheers
unfortunately none exist as far as I know. If one did exist, I'd like to know about it. Audio quality is pretty much ignored in these units.
How much worse would the sound quality on these be compared to a standard sony double din etc? Would it be a big loss?
Cheers
I'm not sure if an external USB DAC (and amplifier) would work - but worth a try. I'm guessing it will work for the Android digital sources but not sure about the radio.
Clinton93 said:
How much worse would the sound quality on these be compared to a standard sony double din etc? Would it be a big loss?
Cheers
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see this thread for reasons as to why the sound quality is so bad -
http://forum.xda-developers.com/and.../mtc-sound-controlling-bd37xxx-sound-t3234660
Effectively the units aren't even taking full advantage of the capabilities of the built-in sound processor, and worse, handling some things entirely wrong.
Also, the quality of the pre-amps makes a noticeable difference as well. As in, how much voltage they put out, as well as the quality of their shielding. These units have poor quality pre-outs from my experience. Mine puts out only 1V and is unshielded.
Last, there is no digital out option. Would be great if they included a SPDIF out for those that want to use an external sound processor, and is common on many higher-end units.
These units are simply not adequate for audiophiles, but you can still manage to pair them with a external soundprocessor & amp to squeeze some improvement out of it. For me though, I regret going through all the trouble of running wires, connecting an external amp/sub/etc and finding out how it's near impossible to get the sound quality the way I want it.
Is the audio on the Joying 2g 32gb units good? i hear things that the EQ is terrible and only 3 band. Is this true or was this for the old units? I am debating between this joying unit in 10.1 or the px5 cpu units that just came out. I am a audiophile and was worried about audio quality and subwoofer output control. anyone that has these units can shed some light would be appreciated
megapimp said:
Is the audio on the Joying 2g 32gb units good? i hear things that the EQ is terrible and only 3 band. Is this true or was this for the old units? I am debating between this joying unit in 10.1 or the px5 cpu units that just came out. I am a audiophile and was worried about audio quality and subwoofer output control. anyone that has these units can shed some light would be appreciated
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Out of the box the EQ is really bad on all of the Chinese units. I've changed quite a lot of models in the past 5 years and all of them were pretty bad.
For that we have Viper4Android, that is an AMAZING piece of software EQ (probably more like an sound processor).
The unit has a separate Sub output control but I haven't tested it... don't have a sub in my car.
BUT
If you are an audiophile these units are not for you. As an audiophile you must have pretty high standards and I am afraid the sound quality of the cheap Chinese units will let you down. Don't get me wrong, for an average user like me, streaming most of the music at 128/256/320 kbps and has medium quality speakers the sound is quite good (with Viper4Android enabled) but It's an only 300$ piece of hardware.... you simply can't ask for more.
Yes you can mod them and maybe change the amp mosfet but you will not get to have audiophile quality out of it. If you get an good external USB DAC and pair it with an real sound processor and maybe with an good amplifier... maybe then you can get closer to a real audiophile solution.
Again, if you are the kind of guy that his cheapest set of headphones are in the 1000$ range or your speakers at home are 3000$ worth.... look somewhere else.
Change the amp chip with a Pioneer chip and the unit is bad ass
edit said:
Out of the box the EQ is really bad on all of the Chinese units. I've changed quite a lot of models in the past 5 years and all of them were pretty bad.
For that we have Viper4Android, that is an AMAZING piece of software EQ (probably more like an sound processor).
The unit has a separate Sub output control but I haven't tested it... don't have a sub in my car.
BUT
If you are an audiophile these units are not for you. As an audiophile you must have pretty high standards and I am afraid the sound quality of the cheap Chinese units will let you down. Don't get me wrong, for an average user like me, streaming most of the music at 128/256/320 kbps and has medium quality speakers the sound is quite good (with Viper4Android enabled) but It's an only 300$ piece of hardware.... you simply can't ask for more.
Yes you can mod them and maybe change the amp mosfet but you will not get to have audiophile quality out of it. If you get an good external USB DAC and pair it with an real sound processor and maybe with an good amplifier... maybe then you can get closer to a real audiophile solution.
Again, if you are the kind of guy that his cheapest set of headphones are in the 1000$ range or your speakers at home are 3000$ worth.... look somewhere else.
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Thank you for this answer... Maybe I chose the wrong wording. I do love quality audio but im not anal about sound. as long as i can adjust the mids highs and lows and for it to sound great not cheap hallow sounding. im used to 7 to 10 bands will i be able to get a true adjustment out of these with 7 band software? Ive seen the Pioneer upgrade just now but thats only for power output. Im currently wanting to install in my escalade with the stock bose amplified speakers. I will be adding 2 sundown 8 inch subwoofers in a tuned box and want to have full media from the unit. spotify music apps loaded music and vids
megapimp said:
Thank you for this answer... Maybe I chose the wrong wording. I do love quality audio but im not anal about sound. as long as i can adjust the mids highs and lows and for it to sound great not cheap hallow sounding. im used to 7 to 10 bands will i be able to get a true adjustment out of these with 7 band software? Ive seen the Pioneer upgrade just now but thats only for power output. Im currently wanting to install in my escalade with the stock bose amplified speakers. I will be adding 2 sundown 8 inch subwoofers in a tuned box and want to have full media from the unit. spotify music apps loaded music and vids
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Pioneer chip upgrade is not just for power but also sound quality.
megapimp said:
Thank you for this answer... Maybe I chose the wrong wording. I do love quality audio but im not anal about sound. as long as i can adjust the mids highs and lows and for it to sound great not cheap hallow sounding. im used to 7 to 10 bands will i be able to get a true adjustment out of these with 7 band software? Ive seen the Pioneer upgrade just now but thats only for power output. Im currently wanting to install in my escalade with the stock bose amplified speakers. I will be adding 2 sundown 8 inch subwoofers in a tuned box and want to have full media from the unit. spotify music apps loaded music and vids
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Your best bet with these units, if you don't want to buy additional hardware (sound processor, an external am with a fancy EQ) is to root them and install Viper4Android (that requires root). Viper gives you the ability to have a pretty good EQ and many other features to tune the sound to your liking. Like I said in my previous post the onboard 3 way EQ is maybe decent for some but I found it pretty poor. Viper was the only piece of software that could bring back the good bass that I was having from the original headunit of my Ford that was made by Sony (this time) and it was made specifically to drive the speakers to their best. Viper has feature that limit the bass not to overwhelm the mids , very usefull.
The DAC in the Joying units is decent and probably closer to good (for my ears and my car speakers) but don't expect audiophile quality out of it by any means. If I had to grade the amp+dac from 1 to 10 I would chose an 6 maybe 6.50.... 7 it's a stretch but maybe with many Viper teaks....
Your Bose sound system is definitely more revealing in therms of sound quality than what speakers put Ford in my car so after installing the Joying you might be a bit disappointing that I've gave the HU an 7
Sound quality is a delicate matter, what is good for some is bad for others.
The cheapest hardware sound improvement would be to change the amp chip (into the Pioneer one), I haven't done it for 2 reasons so I can't comment much on how big the sound quality changes...First I NEED to know that I am buying an genuine chip and not an fake one, ebay is full of them and you simply can't detect a fake, or test it somehow after you received it. The original from Pioneer is around 40$ and the ebay ones are from 2.50$ to 15$ that doesn't inspire me confidence.... and second, even if I have the soldering skills I don't have the equipment needed and finding someone with the proper skills and tools it's a bit complicated.
If you want to control the sub from this unit I read that it's not an good option but you have to look into it:
Read here, these people wanted more sound quality from this unit and they started to mod it : https://forum.xda-developers.com/an...ts/joying-2gb-sofia-headunits-common-t3577217
edit said:
Your best bet with these units, if you don't want to buy additional hardware (sound processor, an external am with a fancy EQ) is to root them and install Viper4Android (that requires root). Viper gives you the ability to have a pretty good EQ and many other features to tune the sound to your liking. Like I said in my previous post the onboard 3 way EQ is maybe decent for some but I found it pretty poor. Viper was the only piece of software that could bring back the good bass that I was having from the original headunit of my Ford that was made by Sony (this time) and it was made specifically to drive the speakers to their best. Viper has feature that limit the bass not to overwhelm the mids , very usefull.
The DAC in the Joying units is decent and probably closer to good (for my ears and my car speakers) but don't expect audiophile quality out of it by any means. If I had to grade the amp+dac from 1 to 10 I would chose an 6 maybe 6.50.... 7 it's a stretch but maybe with many Viper teaks....
Your Bose sound system is definitely more revealing in therms of sound quality than what speakers put Ford in my car so after installing the Joying you might be a bit disappointing that I've gave the HU an 7
Sound quality is a delicate matter, what is good for some is bad for others.
The cheapest hardware sound improvement would be to change the amp chip (into the Pioneer one), I haven't done it for 2 reasons so I can't comment much on how big the sound quality changes...First I NEED to know that I am buying an genuine chip and not an fake one, ebay is full of them and you simply can't detect a fake, or test it somehow after you received it. The original from Pioneer is around 40$ and the ebay ones are from 2.50$ to 15$ that doesn't inspire me confidence.... and second, even if I have the soldering skills I don't have the equipment needed and finding someone with the proper skills and tools it's a bit complicated.
If you want to control the sub from this unit I read that it's not an good option but you have to look into it:
Read here, these people wanted more sound quality from this unit and they started to mod it : https://forum.xda-developers.com/an...ts/joying-2gb-sofia-headunits-common-t3577217
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very good thank you so much for the detailed response. I am more the able to swap the amp chip as i build stand alone ecus for vehicles. I am just turned off that these units wouldnt put good items inside. What headunit may come out in the future that everyone is keeping their eyes on? I see other units with 7 to 10 band EQ settings on them that are cheaper. are those fake eq settings or just the same ole bs?
megapimp said:
very good thank you so much for the detailed response. I am more the able to swap the amp chip as i build stand alone ecus for vehicles. I am just turned off that these units wouldnt put good items inside. What headunit may come out in the future that everyone is keeping their eyes on? I see other units with 7 to 10 band EQ settings on them that are cheaper. are those fake eq settings or just the same ole bs?
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These are cheap units for the average Joe. They need to sell many so the low price point is the key...
When it comes to the EQ all I can say is that my previous unit (Witson) had out of the box a 7 band EQ that was absolutely rubbish... Unusable... Major crap. Viper saved the day. So even if the hardware is decent/good, they are dragging it down with poor software.
Joying with the Sofia implementation it's the best unit that I have used so far.... With each year new units pop up but not all are decent and just a few get a good support from xda.
megapimp said:
very good thank you so much for the detailed response. I am more the able to swap the amp chip as i build stand alone ecus for vehicles. I am just turned off that these units wouldnt put good items inside. What headunit may come out in the future that everyone is keeping their eyes on? I see other units with 7 to 10 band EQ settings on them that are cheaper. are those fake eq settings or just the same ole bs?
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funny thing is, some units that have more than 3 band EQ sliders (like 7 or 10), do bundle them in 3s anyway...you move one and the ones left&right of it move as well go figure....
i guess if one's not happy with the default output, there are 3 choices right now: replace amp, viper mod and 7floor hardware mod+custom EQ sw. That's pretty much the pinnacle of what can be achieved, sound-wise, on chinese units atm. Unless someone really skilled tears the thing apart and re-does pretty much everything down the audio-chain.
....4th option being always of course: stay away from chinese android HUs and get something else....like a Pioneer AVIC-series. U do the math and pro/cons on that..
I've actually purchased a few of these over the years, mostly because they were very vague on this specific feature. Given many of these units are identical just rebranded copies it's hard to sort things out.
The following is based on countless hours searching the web and 4 or 5 personal purchases of these Android head units. If any of this is incorrect please tell me because I have been desperately searching for one due to BMWs incessant need to one off everything.
In my experience the bottom line is no. Android head units do not offer genuine sub support. Yes you can use the rear output and a line converter or run the signal into the high level inputs on your amp (if it has it) but there is still a very simple a basic problem. You still won't have the needed components and or firmware to properly run it. Specifically frequency control, crossover or even a 7 band eq on the unit. I only found one that offered that last and it was janky to say the least (more probably offer the eq now but still very subpar) assuming you can run v4a on the unit that may clear some up but that was written for head phones not a 4 or more speaker system.
Another point is most mainstream headunits, pioneer, Kenwood, alpine heck even boss have 4v rca preout and signal conditioners not to mention both high and low-pass crossovers.
Unfortunately to my knowledge these Chinese Android suppliers have really missed the ball. Yes they offer some cool features but car audio guy's spend many thousands of dollars on these systems and to be honest I have a avh-4500NEX in my 325xi and since it mirrors wirelessly as well as Android auto and car play wireless it provides excellent sound.
Major difference my NEX $1800.00 us brand new these Android's I've seen get spendy but mostly right around 150-400. But you get what you pay for.
The biggest bonus I found though was you can put them anywhere since they are mostly just and inch or two deep.
If I missed the mark please let me know and if you could send a link to where I can pick up a decent one. The I-Drive in my 535i is making a stereo upgrade next to impossible
this is the honest **** i been scouring for... as a AV guy everyone keeps telling me go daisaita blah blah blah but everyone here seems to not have ears or know what they are talking about when it comes to sound... my original gut was to pick up a NEX but i got side tracked with Atoto and the rest because everyone talks out their ass about how amazing they are... with no clue about their soul purpose
they do have
b1n4ry said:
this is the honest **** i been scouring for... as a AV guy everyone keeps telling me go daisaita blah blah blah but everyone here seems to not have ears or know what they are talking about when it comes to sound... my original gut was to pick up a NEX but i got side tracked with Atoto and the rest because everyone talks out their ass about how amazing they are... with no clue about their soul purpose
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They have amazing abilities for instance the iDrive in my 525i is old and outdated and these Android HU are the only option and they are fully functional and compatible which no mainstream HU can claim that I'm aware of. But I'll deal with old and crappy and tap the harness for a signal for my amp before I'll downgrade on sound quality.
You can use an Android successfully IF you install an EQ and probably noise filter but there goes the saving you would have seen.
Spdif out to dsp-amp is possible with Joying for example. SQ shouldn't be problem with it.
Kelynaw said:
If I missed the mark please let me know and if you could send a link to where I can pick up a decent one. The I-Drive in my 535i is making a stereo upgrade next to impossible
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I've had pioneer, Kenwood, Alpine, Blaupunkt and a few others and you haven't missed the mark at all. The audio quality on these Chinese head units is just not comparable and the RCA output voltages (1.4 volts) are standards from 15 or 20 years ago. And yes... they are NOT true sub outputs.
Now having said that, it doesn't mean that you can't bring the audio quality up to par. It does however require some extra money and extra components. I don't run Dasaita's sub outputs but rather have an active electronic crossover which can generate a sub output and I run that plus the Dasaita's front/rear outputs through an AXXESS dsp sound processor before the signals go into the amps.
It's certainly a bit of extra money spent on top of it all, but IMO, worth it because these Android head units beat out the traditional Kenwood's and pioneer's in just about every other respect.
It WOULD be nice however if these Chinese manufacturers started paying a bit more attention to audio quality at the end of the day.
Bob_Sanders said:
I've had pioneer, Kenwood, Alpine, Blaupunkt and a few others and you haven't missed the mark at all. The audio quality on these Chinese head units is just not comparable and the RCA output voltages (1.4 volts) are standards from 15 or 20 years ago. And yes... they are NOT true sub outputs.
Now having said that, it doesn't mean that you can't bring the audio quality up to par. It does however require some extra money and extra components. I don't run Dasaita's sub outputs but rather have an active electronic crossover which can generate a sub output and I run that plus the Dasaita's front/rear outputs through an AXXESS dsp sound processor before the signals go into the amps.
It's certainly a bit of extra money spent on top of it all, but IMO, worth it because these Android head units beat out the traditional Kenwood's and pioneer's in just about every other respect.
It WOULD be nice however if these Chinese manufacturers started paying a bit more attention to audio quality at the end of the day.
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except that axxess unit costs more than the 4/64gb headunit itself... USA MSRP: $422.00 USD
b1n4ry said:
except that axxess unit costs more than the 4/64gb headunit itself... USA MSRP: $422.00 USD
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HUH??
$279 on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Axxess-AX-...241633?hash=item445ecc93e1:g:194AAOSwUKRfRo-R
My new Dasaita cost $586
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001197637149.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.554d4c4duJ2EgH
Bob_Sanders said:
HUH??
$279 on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Axxess-AX-...241633?hash=item445ecc93e1:g:194AAOSwUKRfRo-R
My new Dasaita cost $586
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001197637149.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.554d4c4duJ2EgH
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DSP
https://axxessinterfaces.com/product/AXDSP-X
unit i was looking at
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001244806859.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.51e67ea7IZbacK
Dash Kit
https://www.scosche.com/2003-to-2007-honda-accord-integrated-touchscreen-control-colution-dash-kit
Apparently you haven't played with any of the recent Joyings....You also obviously don't have much experience with different cell phones out there either.
Ok, fine....show me a Pioneer, Alpine, Kenwood, etc that can run Google Maps, Waze, Firefox, Gaia Navigation, Torque Pro, APRS Droid, etc natively, right on the unit....just ONE unit, from ANY of the "big name" manufacturers...they just plain don't exist. Not a single one that runs Android natively, or anything else other than their own, completely closed souce, proprietary OSes that we can't do anything with beyond what comes installed on them from the factory. Don't like their nav app, launcher, or general interface? Tough schmitt...
I've said the same thing for many years...I'd be HAPPY to drop a $1,000USD or more on a solid unit from a major manufacturer that runs Android natively. Or even a Linux based OS, that I can add additional apps to. Hell, I was dropping a thousand plus on putting a touch screen in my dash connected to a PC tower in the back YEARS before these factory double din units hit the market. Some company like Pioneer drops one of them, and I'd be one of the first in line screaming "take my money!!".
Screen mirroring isn't an option for everyone either, as screen mirroring is largely based on Miracast. Especially so for anyone with a Google phone, such as my Pixel. Google has gone out of their way to limit or even eliminate that ability to push more sales of their lousy Chromecast devices, and they have stripped Miracast support out of the core Android as of version 6 (Marshmallow). If your phone supports screen mirroring, that's because whoever made it added Miracast support back in themselves. Android Auto is also a rather lousy compromise for many of us, such as myself, that want to run alternative apps. If it wasn't coded to run within Android Auto, it generally ain't happening which is the case for the navigation app that I use for off road purposes.
I've tried several different Pioneer double din touch screens with several different Android phones. Never once was I able to get screen mirroring/mirrorlink to work correctly to truly screen mirror the phone. Only the crippled Android Auto worked...which is what ultimately pushed me into completely going with these Chinese Android head units.
That said, the Joying JY-UO135N4GS - https://www.joyingauto.com/joying-l...avigation-system-with-built-in-4g-module.html that I have in the truck right now does have a 16 band EQ built in, F&R RCAs as well as a dedicated Sub RCA output, though it's a single. I haven't put a meter on it to verify voltage, but I'm guessing it's around 2V based on gain settings on the amp compared to other head units that I've known to have 2V outputs. A LOT of "brand name" head units today still come with 2V outputs. Also has both LPF and Subsonic filters on the sub output, as well as independent HPF crossovers on F&R channels. I currently have my subs set to 30Hz-100hz, fronts set to 80Hz high pass, and rears at 135Hz high pass (yeah..blame Chevy and their piss poor design on their trucks). Subs are a pair of JBL GTO 12s fed by a Kenwood monoblock amp. Door speakers are Infinity Kappa 6.5s, rears are factory 4x10s.
Is the sound quality on par with the Pioneer head unit that it replaced? No. Can I hear the difference at 75mph over the wind and diesel engine noise? Nope. Maybe I'd hear the difference if I put one of these Joyings in my Cadillac...Do I plan to replace this Joying with a Pioneer/Alpine/Kenwood/etc? Wait for it....has not ever once crossed my mind. I also have a Joying in my Suzuki Samurai, and am shopping for another Android unit for my Suzuki Grand Vitara.
urbex said:
Apparently you haven't played with any of the recent Joyings....You also obviously don't have much experience with different cell phones out there either.
Ok, fine....show me a Pioneer, Alpine, Kenwood, etc that can run Google Maps, Waze, Firefox, Gaia Navigation, Torque Pro, APRS Droid, etc natively, right on the unit....just ONE unit, from ANY of the "big name" manufacturers...they just plain don't exist. Not a single one that runs Android natively, or anything else other than their own, completely closed souce, proprietary OSes that we can't do anything with beyond what comes installed on them from the factory. Don't like their nav app, launcher, or general interface? Tough schmitt...
I've said the same thing for many years...I'd be HAPPY to drop a $1,000USD or more on a solid unit from a major manufacturer that runs Android natively. Or even a Linux based OS, that I can add additional apps to. Hell, I was dropping a thousand plus on putting a touch screen in my dash connected to a PC tower in the back YEARS before these factory double din units hit the market. Some company like Pioneer drops one of them, and I'd be one of the first in line screaming "take my money!!".
Screen mirroring isn't an option for everyone either, as screen mirroring is largely based on Miracast. Especially so for anyone with a Google phone, such as my Pixel. Google has gone out of their way to limit or even eliminate that ability to push more sales of their lousy Chromecast devices, and they have stripped Miracast support out of the core Android as of version 6 (Marshmallow). If your phone supports screen mirroring, that's because whoever made it added Miracast support back in themselves. Android Auto is also a rather lousy compromise for many of us, such as myself, that want to run alternative apps. If it wasn't coded to run within Android Auto, it generally ain't happening which is the case for the navigation app that I use for off road purposes.
I've tried several different Pioneer double din touch screens with several different Android phones. Never once was I able to get screen mirroring/mirrorlink to work correctly to truly screen mirror the phone. Only the crippled Android Auto worked...which is what ultimately pushed me into completely going with these Chinese Android head units.
That said, the Joying JY-UO135N4GS - https://www.joyingauto.com/joying-l...avigation-system-with-built-in-4g-module.html that I have in the truck right now does have a 16 band EQ built in, F&R RCAs as well as a dedicated Sub RCA output, though it's a single. I haven't put a meter on it to verify voltage, but I'm guessing it's around 2V based on gain settings on the amp compared to other head units that I've known to have 2V outputs. A LOT of "brand name" head units today still come with 2V outputs. Also has both LPF and Subsonic filters on the sub output, as well as independent HPF crossovers on F&R channels. I currently have my subs set to 30Hz-100hz, fronts set to 80Hz high pass, and rears at 135Hz high pass (yeah..blame Chevy and their piss poor design on their trucks). Subs are a pair of JBL GTO 12s fed by a Kenwood monoblock amp. Door speakers are Infinity Kappa 6.5s, rears are factory 4x10s.
Is the sound quality on par with the Pioneer head unit that it replaced? No. Can I hear the difference at 75mph over the wind and diesel engine noise? Nope. Maybe I'd hear the difference if I put one of these Joyings in my Cadillac...Do I plan to replace this Joying with a Pioneer/Alpine/Kenwood/etc? Wait for it....has not ever once crossed my mind. I also have a Joying in my Suzuki Samurai, and am shopping for another Android unit for my Suzuki Grand Vitara.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are fine with sub par audio Then your opinion doesn't matter
The #1 purpose above all the bull**** you rambled on about is SOUND that's the purpose of an aftermarket head unit... Regardless of additional features
b1n4ry said:
If you are fine with sub par audio Then your opinion doesn't matter
The #1 purpose above all the bull**** you rambled on about is SOUND that's the purpose of an aftermarket head unit... Regardless of additional features
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's already been stated that audio quality is not the best. It's also been made clear that for some extra bucks and a few more components you CAN have your cake and eat it too. Now if you wish not to go that far then why are you here? Go to the pioneer forums.
As for the purpose of an aftermarket head unit.... yesteryear it WAS all about sound. Now it's more about central information centers. All kinds of information at your fingertips... and these Chinese units just beat the crap out of ANY of the traditional units as general information centers. Try hard as you can to make a traditional head unit do something to this level of detail and customization:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Now.. do I have to put some extra money in making the sound better? Yup, sure do, but to my eyes it's worth it.
I´m running my Joying still from speaker out to Match M5DSP. SQ is even now better than with stock HU (PSA MyWay) that I used to feed M5DSP. I don´t hear any problems and I´ve been hifi-guy nearly 30 years.
Why is it not a true subwoofer output? I have a 1500w rms amp connected to the green subwoofer output and a dayon max mx12 and its clear as day. My only problem is my hengcheng which is like a teyes c3 clone only has front rca output and I want to leave my front speakers on the tda7851 built in amplifier and connect my rear speakers to a 200w amp in the back. But if I use the front rca out I will loose fader control cuz the system will think my rears are front speakers. What about the output voltage? I don't have a line out converter and everything sounds fine.
Kelynaw said:
I've actually purchased a few of these over the years, mostly because they were very vague on this specific feature. Given many of these units are identical just rebranded copies it's hard to sort things out.
The following is based on countless hours searching the web and 4 or 5 personal purchases of these Android head units. If any of this is incorrect please tell me because I have been desperately searching for one due to BMWs incessant need to one off everything.
In my experience the bottom line is no. Android head units do not offer genuine sub support. Yes you can use the rear output and a line converter or run the signal into the high level inputs on your amp (if it has it) but there is still a very simple a basic problem. You still won't have the needed components and or firmware to properly run it. Specifically frequency control, crossover or even a 7 band eq on the unit. I only found one that offered that last and it was janky to say the least (more probably offer the eq now but still very subpar) assuming you can run v4a on the unit that may clear some up but that was written for head phones not a 4 or more speaker system.
Another point is most mainstream headunits, pioneer, Kenwood, alpine heck even boss have 4v rca preout and signal conditioners not to mention both high and low-pass crossovers.
Unfortunately to my knowledge these Chinese Android suppliers have really missed the ball. Yes they offer some cool features but car audio guy's spend many thousands of dollars on these systems and to be honest I have a avh-4500NEX in my 325xi and since it mirrors wirelessly as well as Android auto and car play wireless it provides excellent sound.
Major difference my NEX $1800.00 us brand new these Android's I've seen get spendy but mostly right around 150-400. But you get what you pay for.
The biggest bonus I found though was you can put them anywhere since they are mostly just and inch or two deep.
If I missed the mark please let me know and if you could send a link to where I can pick up a decent one. The I-Drive in my 535i is making a stereo upgrade next to impossible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are mostly the same but not all the same, I.e. MTCD with MCU mod sub out.
Yes, line level is 1.5-2v RMS not 4v as car audio mostly is.
Your post doesn't list "Android units" so cant tell what your test units were.
Why is it not a true subwoofer output? I have a 1500w rms amp connected to the green subwoofer output and a dayon max mx12 and its clear as day. My only problem is my hengcheng which is like a teyes c3 clone
marchnz said:
They are mostly the same but not all the same, I.e. MTCD with MCU mod sub out.
Yes, line level is 1.5-2v RMS not 4v as car audio mostly is.
Your post doesn't list "Android units" so cant tell what your test units were.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which one is
Excuse my ignorance, I don't do high end stereo builds for cars(home theater yes).
Just curious, if you're trying to put out that kind of wattage and care that much about crystal sound, why aren't you using spdif(optical or coax) to output digital from your stereo regardless of brand. Then your Head unit is for the features/apps and screen and your high end equip is for signal processing?
Because the optical is 5.1 so a DAC would be mono output to each speaker, and there isn't a digital rca spdif or optical that is stereo. I thought about doing that and just using y cables but not with it really the signal wouldn't be any better just less chance of interference and I have none. An amp with optical starts around 1k unless you go aliexpress or something. My amp topsolidgear 1600w 1 ohm stable as tested by wiliston audio on YouTube is $150. My Dayton MX12-22 12" subwoofer was $140. I have it running 600w @ 4 ohm and its already crazy. After I break it in I may switch to 1 ohm and get even louder. My speakers are coaxial ds18 3 way black diamonds ($39) and my rear speakers are component ds18 6.5 with 3.5" bullet tweeters with built in crossover ($70) so it's a budget system. But it sounds great. All my audio is high resolution lossless flac files and the dsp does a great job. The 32 band equalizer let's me adjust subwoofer frequency and speaker frequency so I can turn my speakers off between 30_whatever hertz and set my sub anywhere from 30_70 hz range. It also has time delay and surround function and turns my amp on and off with a trigger wire amongst some other settings I haven't figured out yet.
Can't figure out what bass enhancement does. Bass filter is to filter bass from speakers and surround is to adjust timing.
Here is a pic.
CaliBurr said:
Because the optical is 5.1 so a DAC would be mono output to each speaker, and there isn't a digital rca spdif or optical that is stereo. I thought about doing that and just using y cables but not with it really the signal wouldn't be any better just less chance of interference and I have none. An amp with optical starts around 1k unless you go aliexpress or something. My amp topsolidgear 1600w 1 ohm stable as tested by wiliston audio on YouTube is $150. My Dayton MX12-22 12" subwoofer was $140. I have it running 600w @ 4 ohm and its already crazy. After I break it in I may switch to 1 ohm and get even louder. My speakers are coaxial ds18 3 way black diamonds ($39) and my rear speakers are component ds18 6.5 with 3.5" bullet tweeters with built in crossover ($70) so it's a budget system. But it sounds great. All my audio is high resolution lossless flac files and the dsp does a great job. The 32 band equalizer let's me adjust subwoofer frequency and speaker frequency so I can turn my speakers off between 30_whatever hertz and set my sub anywhere from 30_70 hz range. It also has time delay and surround function and turns my amp on and off with a trigger wire amongst some other settings I haven't figured out yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"there isn't a digital rca spdif or optical that is stereo"
not sure I understand this statement? Digital is stream is whatever is on it the stream. I send stereo over optical all the time in home theater(well I used too, it's OLD now ;-) Yes technically each speaker would be mono(it's channel) maybe I'm missing something.
I understand your point on cost, but if you already have the amp you want with solid RCA then just use a 50 dollar 4.1 or 5.1 DAC to RCA
It will skip the "crappy" DAC in the the HU and avoid interference(sorry but from what I read they ALL have it). I know both mine do.
The only reason I can think it will still be bad is if they are still doing DAC then reversing it for the optical. Again I have not tested the optical on the one I have with it as my stock system doesn't do spdif or even RCA.
Hey guys,
I just finally installed Avin Avant4 unit in my E39 M5 and I am SO disappointed with the sound quality.
I got the dsp chip with it. (Yes, I've adjusted it, but its the unit components/build quality itself)
I previously had an old Pioneer Avic Z130BT - and have MB Quart components up front powered by JL 300/4 for cabin and a sub with JL 500/1. It sounded great.
I have a feeling the unit may be defective, but not sure if all of them are like this. In which case it is extremely disappointing.
I hear interference at random times, like when using the touchscreen. The carplay adapter sounds a TAD better, but not by much. The highs are just terrible and sound as if it is a poor connection (it is not).
Has anyone compared the PX6 with DSP chip to a Pioneer/Alpine/etc.
I love having the ibus functionality and carplay in one, but the audio quality is just terrible.
Perhaps there are some options? Otherwise I may have to resort to going back to regular double din, and I really don't want to because this one looks 100%.
bea5t said:
Has anyone compared the PX6 with DSP chip to a Pioneer/Alpine/etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not the px6 yet. I have it but haven't installed yet. My px5 is still in there though.
I had a pioneer NEX4200 in my jeep which got replaced with a Kenwood 9903s, which got replaced by my present px5.
If you're strictly concerned with audio quality (out of the box) then you should go to kenwood or pioneer (I don't like Alpine... you pay too much for the name) because the audio quality is most definitely better. Now I say "out of the box" because you CAN make the sound better in these Chinese machines with external amps and sound processors (which I have done).
But I choose to spend additional money making the sound better on my Dasaita px5 because these machines offer FAR more flexibility than my pioneer or kenwood ever could be.
Hopefully I will have my px6 installed next week for further comparison but I can already pretty much tell you that my pioneer nex4200 or Kenwood will sound better. It's tough to beat the sound quality of today's traditional hardware based head units with a Chinese android unit.
I have JL 300/4 going to MB Quart (old school made in germany) components. The minute I plugged in the android and turned on some audio, even before touching ANY settings, I was already disappointed.
The "alive" sound is just gone. You can tweak the highs and EQ and loudness all you want, but its still polishing a turd.
Wondering if anyone has connected a proper DAC to these (but how would it work with front/rear/sub outputs?)
bea5t said:
I have JL 300/4 going to MB Quart (old school made in germany) components. The minute I plugged in the android and turned on some audio, even before touching ANY settings, I was already disappointed.
The "alive" sound is just gone. You can tweak the highs and EQ and loudness all you want, but its still polishing a turd.
Wondering if anyone has connected a proper DAC to these (but how would it work with front/rear/sub outputs?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah.... I was pretty disappointed in the beginning too. The sound was nowhere near as good as my kenwood, but I was determined to make it fly because of everything else these things can do.
I don't use the onboard amp. I use the front and rear rca outputs to a crossover which CREATES a new subwoofer channel which all (front, rear and new sub) is then fed to a signal processor (Axxess AX-DSP-X Digital Signal Processor) and then on to front, rear, and subwoofer amps.
I still get the odd screen noise to the speakers every so often but it's livable. The sound however is back up to par with my Kenwood.
I think that the big difference between the cheap chinese units and the more expensive ones is not so much the sound output. It's pretty much the same shallow audio across all these units. The difference is in how much processor and screen noise gets passed on to the audio. Some of these machines are just shielded better, with better pc board layouts so that noisy chips aren't near the audio preamps.
I would just absolutely love it if pioneer or kenwood built one of these android machines. It would be a killer machine. Pioneer/Kenwood audio quality mixed with the power of what is essentially an android tablet.
I pulled it out and put a new pioneer instead. The android is just not reliable and has its own quirks. No matter what the audio quality was just not there. Pioneer is levels beyond.
I put a android media player and running ibusapp off that with hdmi into the pioneer - anyone know how I can power the android media player using 12V constant, + ACC? - having the accessory wire send a signal to turn on/off so the android doesnt lose time settings?
Hello,
I have bought a 2 DIN Android 10 head unit for my car.
I found the only product matching with my car (alfa romeo 147) to fit properly.
But I am very disappointed about what is inside.
First specifications do not match (4 gb RAM instead of 8, 800x480 instead of 1024x600...)
In addition sound is not very good.
I wonder if it is possible to change parts like
- Screen , to increase resolution
- Sound board , to have a better audio quality
- Increase RAM ...
Is there standard connection, like in a PC, allowing us to change some elements ?
Thank you for your responses
theog11 said:
Hello,
I wonder if it is possible to change parts like
- Screen , to increase resolution
- Sound board , to have a better audio quality
- Increase RAM ...
Is there standard connection, like in a PC, allowing us to change some elements ?
Thank you for your responses
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Screen size has nothing to do with screen resolution: GIYF ...
Sound quality can get increased with an EQUALIZER app: GIYF ...
RAM may get increased physically, but will not be detected. You may try to install a SWAP memory ( virtual RAM ): GIYF ...
To manage Android OS from PC via USB cable you use ADB.
Thank you for your re
jwoegerbauer said:
Screen size has nothing to do with screen resolution: GIYF ...
Sound quality can get increased with an EQUALIZER app: GIYF ...
RAM may get increased physically, but will not be detected. You may try to install a SWAP memory ( virtual RAM ): GIYF ...
To manage Android OS from PC via USB cable you use ADB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For screen resolution, with a higher resolution you are able display more information with a same size screen. If you don't believe me try to connect your PC to your TV and play with resolution.
Sound quality is not really increased by the equalizer APP. You can tune a little but if your device is poor, you will never have good sound
It sounds like there is enough wrong here so that it's not worth it. Just a new higher res screen will set you back a pretty penny.
Either live with it or return/sell it and start over with a better known brand.
Sorry but all incorrect answers. Every single aspect of the unit can be improved. Especially sound quality.
It will require hardware modding as well as software modding but it is more than doable.
We run a charity project where I bring these £100 units to a level of products costing many thousands, only spending £50-£100 in materials.
One of the mods we do is to replace the need of external amplifier and DSP altogether.
You can check out extrememod.co.uk for more ideas, particularly the FAQ section.
iceblue1980 said:
Sorry but all incorrect answers. Every single aspect of the unit can be improved. Especially sound quality.
It will require hardware modding as well as software modding but it is more than doable.
We run a charity project where I bring these £100 units to a level of products costing many thousands, only spending £50-£100 in materials.
One of the mods we do is to replace the need of external amplifier and DSP altogether.
You can check out extrememod.co.uk for more ideas, particularly the FAQ section.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Charity is lovely I respect that. But do you seriously believe that your mod can truly replace the need for a power amp? If so then please tell how you mod the headunits output to deliver 500+ watts of clean RMS power required to power a sub+woofers+midbass+tweeters with sufficient headroom in a noisy environment like a car?
And regarding the DSP. Sure any DSP with time alignment is better than no TA but a nice dedicated DSP offers so many features that no mods will bring these headunits.
So please stop spreading false claims about 100$ mod magically transforming these headunits into sql competition winning material.
Ok I checked Extrememod.co.uk and that page was just about as untruthful as Chinese sellers on AliExpress. Quote: "These units come equipped with a powerful built-in audio amplifier"
Very powerful indeed -and miraculously only require a tiny winy power cable AND runs fine with a 10A fuse. A truly Nobel prize worthy achievement!
Allan_Hun said:
Charity is lovely I respect that. But do you seriously believe that your mod can truly replace the need for a power amp? If so then please tell how you mod the headunits output to deliver 500+ watts of clean RMS power required to power a sub+woofers+midbass+tweeters with sufficient headroom in a noisy environment like a car?
And regarding the DSP. Sure any DSP with time alignment is better than no TA but a nice dedicated DSP offers so many features that no mods will bring these headunits.
So please stop spreading false claims about 100$ mod magically transforming these headunits into sql competition winning material.
Ok I checked Extrememod.co.uk and that page was just about as untruthful as Chinese sellers on AliExpress. Quote: "These units come equipped with a powerful built-in audio amplifier"
Very powerful indeed -and miraculously only require a tiny winy power cable AND runs fine with a 10A fuse. A truly Nobel prize worthy achievement!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All great points. Now let me respond to some of them.
1. I believe you missed the core point of it all - we build Android head units for audiophiles on budget. This essentially means all the people looking to have great sound at the smallest cost while keeping full functionality of an Android device.
2. Your comment on "500W RMS" and "tiny tiny cables" is irrelevant. Why? Because your sound will only be as good as the source. An Android Head unit will often output very poor sound from pre-outs. We therefore maximise the internal amp and surrounding electronics, advising folks not to use external amps and DSP's. Most of the cars we build for use 18 AWG speaker cables already, same as in the ISO harness. We do however use 16 AWG power cables with proper grounding.
3. I'm sorry but I'm yet to see a DSP processor that offers what Viper4Android does. Especially within feasible cost range.
4. The units we build have their TDA7850 amps running at 18v, not 12v - obviously with bespoke cooling to support the high temps. In most cars, true 200W output will be more than enough.
To summarize, we started this project to build all-in-one Android Head Units that offer everything an audiophile would want without spending thousands of dollars, while keeping all that an Android can offer. We had a good look around and found absolutely nothing in the Android Head unit space that did not require the user to sacrifice at least something, whether it's the sound, the handsfree quality, the UI, Android apps limitations etc.
The real reason for why no manufacturer is building units such as this - is the cost. In mass-production, it would simply be too expensive. Luckily we can work with what we've got and replace components with much better ones, hardware and software alike.
We are also looking into optimizing these units specifically for people that want to use external amps and DSP's. This too requires quite a lot of modding to ensure the pre-outs deliver as high quality output as possible. We'll be looking for audio pro's to test them and give us feedback. You can apply on our site if you're interested and located near London, UK.
iceblue1980 said:
Sorry but all incorrect answers. Every single aspect of the unit can be improved. Especially sound quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't say it can't be done. I said it's not worth it. There is a difference.
If you want to mod and improve, then start with a good quality base. This head unit is not that.
iceblue1980 said:
4. The units we build have their TDA7850 amps running at 18v, not 12v - obviously with bespoke cooling to support the high temps. In most cars, true 200W output will be more than enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Replacing (and using) internal amps is a useless and fruitless endeavor. There are far more options available in external amps, quality and ease of installing when going with external amps. Indeed, if you are on a budget then external amps (and dsp's if need be) are the better way to go because you can upgrade a bit at a time.
Does an external amp increase audio quality ?
I think if source is not very good, external amp will just allow more power output, but what about quality ?
How to check if head unit has DSP ? Mine is supposed to have but I want to verify
theog11 said:
Does an external amp increase audio quality ?
I think if source is not very good, external amp will just allow more power output, but what about quality ?
How to check if head unit has DSP ? Mine is supposed to have but I want to verify
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An internal amp does not increase audio quality any more or less than an external amp does, so it is a moot and irrelevant question. If you have bad audio quality going into an internal amp, then the outcome is exactly the same. Regardless of what amp you use (internal or external), if the audio quality is bad going into the amp, then it will be bad going out of the amp too.
What an external connection with external amps does is allow more flexibility in the quality of amps used, the number of amps used, and the power involved. You can also add external dsp's if you wish.
Bob_Sanders said:
I didn't say it can't be done. I said it's not worth it. There is a difference.
If you want to mod and improve, then start with a good quality base. This head unit is not that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is a charity project so Besides, we're focusing on 8227L units primarily. They are cheap and pretty much made for low-cost modding with more than respectable outcomes.
Bob_Sanders said:
Replacing (and using) internal amps is a useless and fruitless endeavor. There are far more options available in external amps, quality and ease of installing when going with external amps. Indeed, if you are on a budget then external amps (and dsp's if need be) are the better way to go because you can upgrade a bit at a time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But then I would go back to the point 1 I made - the bottleneck is the Android Head unit itself. If it doesn't deliver good output at pre-outs, no point in investing in external gear. Today you pretty much forced to choose - either good sound or an Android Head Unit. This is what we're trying to remedy, while keeping the cost in the lower brackets.
iceblue1980 said:
But then I would go back to the point 1 I made - the bottleneck is the Android Head unit itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That has nothing to do with the choice of amp (internal or external) you use. The output of the RCA's is the same input for either amp. It is simply delivered internally to the internal amp and through RCA's for the external. If it is not clean audio from the RCA's then it also won't be for the internal amp. The only difference is that the internal amp is cheap and under powered so it can't emphasize the crappy audio as well as a cleaner and more powerful external amp can
Internal amps are crappy.... always have been... and with the cheap price of external amps these days and the large selection of them, it doesn't make sense to upgrade an internal
And with that, I go back to my original point.... modding and improving a cheap head unit is not worth it. You are better off starting with a good quality base model first.
This particular head unit is clearly a sub par unit with bad sound quality, low screen resolution, and insufficient memory, so all of that would have to be fixed first before anybody worries about an output amp to begin with.
The long and short of it is that the OP is going to be spending probably twice as much as the head unit is worth trying to make it into what he wants.
Bob_Sanders said:
That has nothing to do with the choice of amp (internal or external) you use. The output of the RCA's is the same input for either amp. It is simply delivered internally to the internal amp and through RCA's for the external. If it is not clean audio from the RCA's then it also won't be for the internal amp. The only difference is that the internal amp is cheap and under powered so it can't emphasize the crappy audio as well as a cleaner and more powerful external amp can
Internal amps are crappy.... always have been... and with the cheap price of external amps these days and the large selection of them, it doesn't make sense to upgrade an internal...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to respectfully disagree. In these units, there is little to no correlation of the sound output between the internal amp and RCA's. This is why there are 2 different directions that modders take - one focused on the internal amp and one focused on the RCA output. Both mods cannot exist in the same unit by the way.
The RCA's have poor electronics behind them as well as poor shielding, resulting in the equally poor audio output. What you will be amplifying is just that - poor sound.
Bob_Sanders said:
And with that, I go back to my original point.... modding and improving a cheap head unit is not worth it. You are better off starting with a good quality base model first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would agree to a point but many "hi-end" android head units are very difficult if not impossible to mod and it's also a matter of price. As this is a charity project, we're looking to keep the cost low while maximizing the value.
Bob_Sanders said:
This particular head unit is clearly a sub par unit with bad sound quality, low screen resolution, and insufficient memory, so all of that would have to be fixed first before anybody worries about an output amp to begin with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes many of these units are honestly not worth touching. As for CPU and memory - the use of these can be considerably optimized with Android programming skills, making them very much usable in day-to-day scenarios. As an example, you can check out the video in my signature and fast forward to where we show the Google Maps loading times on a 1Gb RAM unit.
Bob_Sanders said:
The long and short of it is that the OP is going to be spending probably twice as much as the head unit is worth trying to make it into what he wants.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is probably true. But then again, he as many others are always faced with a choice of what to prioritize: sound quality or a fully-fledged Android onboard computer.
Finally, I think anyone can improve their head units if they would really want to as there is so much information out there and guides. It would cost time but not much money. This is, I guess, why XDA also exists - for everyone to share knowledge
iceblue1980 said:
I have to respectfully disagree. In these units, there is little to no correlation of the sound output between the internal amp and RCA's. This is why there are 2 different directions that modders take - one focused on the internal amp and one focused on the RCA output. Both mods cannot exist in the same unit by the way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes there are.
The output from the fm chip (just for example) does not have separate outputs for rca and internal. It has only one (L&R) output set which is fed to an input selector which is in turn fed to a preamp. That preamp output is fed to the internal amp with what basically amounts to a tap off to the rca's. Aside from a few decoupling caps and such, along with a filter and output set for the sub, the RCA signal is virtually the same as what is being fed to the internal amps.
"poor shielding" amounts to a crappy set of rca output cables which can be replaced for a couple of bucks if you have shielding issues.
BOTH the internal and external amps get their signal from the same preamp and filter stages. Not only that, but the internal amp also gets its power from the same internal power supply as the rest of the head unit does, so if that power supply is not clean then it affects the internal amp too. Drive any power supply too hard then you start getting dirty sound. An external amp has it's own dedicated power supply, which means you don't have to drive the head unit's power supply very hard at any time. That leads to a cooler running head unit with lots of power to run its other components.
Internal amps are IMO... a crappy way to go.
I would agree to a point but many "hi-end" android head units are very difficult if not impossible to mod and it's also a matter of price. As this is a charity project, we're looking to keep the cost low while maximizing the value.
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Well... you mention "charity" not the OP, but the point is that the cost is NOT low when you start talking about having to purchase higher res screens (complete with driver), new memory and dsp boards. Your pretty much replacing more than half of the head unit's essential electronics. Heck... if you're going to be replacing that much.... you may as well start from scratch and build one from the ground , up
Bob_Sanders said:
Yes there are.
The output from the fm chip (just for example) does not have separate outputs for rca and internal. It has only one (L&R) output set which is fed to an input selector which is in turn fed to a preamp. That preamp output is fed to the internal amp with what basically amounts to a tap off to the rca's. Aside from a few decoupling caps and such, along with a filter and output set for the sub, the RCA signal is virtually the same as what is being fed to the internal amps.
"poor shielding" amounts to a crappy set of rca output cables which can be replaced for a couple of bucks if you have shielding issues.
BOTH the internal and external amps get their signal from the same preamp and filter stages. Not only that, but the internal amp also gets its power from the same internal power supply as the rest of the head unit does, so if that power supply is not clean then it affects the internal amp too. Drive any power supply too hard then you start getting dirty sound. An external amp has it's own dedicated power supply, which means you don't have to drive the head unit's power supply very hard at any time. That leads to a cooler running head unit with lots of power to run its other components.
Internal amps are IMO... a crappy way to go.
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Ah, I see now what you're trying to say. Okay so yes, you are correct on a number of points, however, as I mentioned before - we are driving the internal amp with a separate 18v 15A power supply (we only need 10A but there you go). A power supply that is custom-built using a step-up DC-DC converter with temperature-controlled cooling (at 8A+ it starts to get pretty warm).
The internal amp is completely disconnected from the internal 12V power, while still being connected to everything else. We improved the audio output quality by quite a staggering 40%.
Internal amps will never be able to compete with external equivalents, but when you put it in a perspective of an Android - it's a totally different comparison. Like comparing cars with trains. Sure, both are means of transportations but quite different in themselves.
By the way, the "RCA" mod actually removes the internal amp altogether from the circuit.
I will agree that 200 true Watts is probably enough for most people -If they also have a powered sub. Check the recommend amps for popular subs like alpine and JL. Deep bass require some muscle. And 200W feeding a sub, two (mid)woofers + two tweeters ain't much. Heck my woofers sounds notably better @2x150W compared with 2x75W.
Most modern car subs are mostly optimized for low frequency production in small boxes. This is achieved with a stiff suspension and big motors. -Not a very efficient in therms of db/W.
I also think your definition of true watts is quite different than mine...
In my book true watts means continuous 20-20khz 1% THD.
I just checked the 7850 specs, and it is actually quite impressive for it's size. With 18V input it delivers almost 90W. BUT at 30W the distortions increases and at 40W it skyrockets!
Regardless of budget I don't think many "audiophiles" would appreciate >10% distortion...
For a budget android car hifi experience I believe HU, USB DAC + external amp would be the way to go.
IMHO Viper is by far the best sound mod app but it can't replace a DAC. Does Viper have auto tune? Automatic input selection ? Autoand programable turn on/off?Hardware volume control? Ground isolation? Logic 7 centerchannel? Fully costume covers?
Viper and a standalone DSP is two rather different things.
My DSP also have high level inputs so maybe I should try if the 7850 output vs the preamp RCAs. You do seem to know the HU's internals quite well. Can you explain why internal amp sounds better compared to the preamp output?
Isn't the 7850 recurving same signal as the preamp plugs?
Allan_Hun said:
I will agree that 200 true Watts is probably enough for most people -If they also have a powered sub. Check the recommend amps for popular subs like alpine and JL. Deep bass require some muscle. And 200W feeding a sub, two (mid)woofers + two tweeters ain't much. Heck my woofers sounds notably better @2x150W compared with 2x75W.
Most modern car subs are mostly optimized for low frequency production in small boxes. This is achieved with a stiff suspension and big motors. -Not a very efficient in therms of db/W.
I also think your definition of true watts is quite different than mine...
In my book true watts means continuous 20-20khz 1% THD.
I just checked the 7850 specs, and it is actually quite impressive for it's size. With 18V input it delivers almost 90W. BUT at 30W the distortions increases and at 40W it skyrockets!
Regardless of budget I don't think many "audiophiles" would appreciate >10% distortion...
For a budget android car hifi experience I believe HU, USB DAC + external amp would be the way to go.
IMHO Viper is by far the best sound mod app but it can't replace a DAC. Does Viper have auto tune? Automatic input selection ? Autoand programable turn on/off?Hardware volume control? Ground isolation? Logic 7 centerchannel? Fully costume covers?
Viper and a standalone DSP is two rather different things.
My DSP also have high level inputs so maybe I should try if the 7850 output vs the preamp RCAs. You do seem to know the HU's internals quite well. Can you explain why internal amp sounds better compared to the preamp output?
Isn't the 7850 recurving same signal as the preamp plugs?
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Click to collapse
You're absolutely correct. While this unit will drive some of the passive subs (thanks to all the additional cooling), we do highly recommend using an active subwoofer for the best sound experience. Even an underseat sub like Kenwood KSC-SW11will make enough of an impact as many people don't want to use the extra space for a sub.
You're absolutely correct on the distortion part. I haven't experienced it driving 4 Ohm speakers in various cars but all of them had active subs.
On USB DACs - totally correct. However these head units have fairly unreliable internal electronics to effectively drive them (surprise surprise). Hardware modding is required and we haven't been able to get any good results. The internal hardware is too weak to drive DAC's. Drivers are unstable as well. External DAC's was one of the first things we tried.
As for internal vs RCA output - what you're mentioning is correct when it comes to most devices out there. This is how it should be. On these head units however, it's a bit of a mess. In fact, we tried to "rewire" it internally but it resulted in an even worse output from RCA's.
The internal electronics are many times completely removed and we install an internal preamp microchip with separate power supply (step down DC-DC converter) and redo the capacitance as well as internal shielding.
We haven't had any requests yet for RCA-only projects so it's still very much an area of testing and development for us.
My DSP is connected through usb and it works fine with USB audio player pro. For anything else I use the optical output. Do you think the speaker output would improve the soundquality compared to the optical output?
Also tried a I had a 8227L I also tried a E1DA 9038D DAC and it worked except I could not control the volume, so it would play at full volume. So I guess a DAC with a volume dial could work.
Your statement about only needing 10A at 18V don't match your claim about 200 true watts. The 7850 is class AB so efficiency is probably about 75% . 10x18x0.75=135W...