Does Knox warranty void = Device warranty void
Who and why decided that the one equals the other?
The warranty void flag is for Knox, and it could only mean that there is no warranty for this piece of software if you downgrade your devise.
Some lawyers here?
Whats wrong with the other knox threads?
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I think the words "warranty void" are pretty clear.
I also think that the manufacturer aka "Samsung" is the one that decides.
My opinion is Samsung are sick of noobs who keep playing with their phone without knowing what they are doing stuffing them up and claiming warranty when there is nothing wrong with the phone.
Disclamer these are my opinions and beliefs.
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I think the
KNOX Warranty Void Flag (KWVF) is exactly that what it says
The Warranty for the SECURE System (KNOX) is voided
So you can't use the secure KNOX Container anymore
KNOX was build for Enterprise and BYOD (Bring Your Own Device)
When the Device is compromised by Root or Custom Recovery then this warranty for a secure Device is voided.
Before KNOX is starting / opening the crypted KNOX Container the KWVF is checked.
If it is triggered (0x1) the KNOX denies the access to the KNOX Container.
If not so Samsung can't sell KNOX as a SECURE System.
I don't think that the KWVF alone can void Device Warranty,
Maybe some Samsung Service Centers try to act so, but i think in Europe this will be against law.
On the other Side there are Flash Counters / a warranty Bit and eMMC Burst Mode:
Here I fully understand Samsungs effort to deny warranty if device is bricked by flashing anything to it.
A lot of noobs flash nearly everything in the second it was uploaded.
A lot of them don't use the brain or are to lazy to read the Thread ( or others) before click on the Start Button in Odin.
Such (mostly Softbricked) Devices going under warranty to the Samsung Service Centers cost a huge amount of Money to repair (reflash) for Samsung.
Thats a fully normal (and leagal) way that Samsung try to push down that costs by denieing warranty for such Devices.
What if there will be a way to reset KNOX? (I think thats only a question of time!)
If this happens the KNOX is unsecure and worthless in Enterprise use.
So Samsung and Developers will start a long-lasting ping pong game.
Instead of this Samsung should build in a Method (in Stock Recovery or anywhre else) that can do a KNOX Warranty Flag reset of the cost of totally wipe the phone including internal SD and Knox Containers.
So a once compromised phone can be reset to a normal state.
Regards
Thanks for the profound answer @Tanis64.
That's my understanding too, but your answer makes it clearer and easier to use it as a legal argument.
yep, that just about covers my feelings on the matter too
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Since it is pretty clear that Samsung is not going to honor warranty service on knox tripped devices, I'm wondering of they will still fix them for a fee.
Why am I wondering? I'm curious if they can reset knox at the factory. If so, it means we can reset knox ourselves. I'm an electrical engineer and am looking into a hardware modification that would render knox useless.
In non technical terms, it would be similar to bypassing a blown fuse in your car with a piece of metal in place of the burnt fuse.
It is extremely possible, depending on the efuse they use. It's hard for me to imagine they would install the efuse in such a way that even they would be unable to reverse it.
Efuses are not new technology, and their main purpose is to act in a very simiar way to standard circuit breaker. And just like a tripped breaker, they can be reset. Its simply a matter of what type they used, and how it was implemented
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Serinety said:
Since it is pretty clear that Samsung is not going to honor warranty service on knox tripped devices, I'm wondering of they will still fix them for a fee.
Why am I wondering? I'm curious if they can reset knox at the factory. If so, it means we can reset knox ourselves. I'm an electrical engineer and am looking into a hardware modification that would render knox useless.
In non technical terms, it would be similar to bypassing a blown fuse in your car with a piece of metal in place of the burnt fuse.
It is extremely possible, depending on the efuse they use. It's hard for me to imagine they would install the efuse in such a way that even they would be unable to reverse it.
Efuses are not new technology, and their main purpose is to act in a very simiar way to standard circuit breaker. And just like a tripped breaker, they can be reset. Its simply a matter of what type they used, and how it was implemented
Yea its possible with a unlocked boot loader cause removing knox itself from the system is not hard but that counter is in the bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
jparasita said:
Yea its possible with a unlocked boot loader cause removing knox itself from the system is not hard but that counter is in the bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it truly is an efuse, they are physically blown transistors due to intentional electromigration , inhibiting electron flow through the channel, basically, preventing the gate from allowing electron flow through the channel.
however, if the efuse is an external chip (most of them are, it would be added to the motherboard, just like ram, wifi chip, wacom digitizer.. etc) then that chip will either have a reset (by applying voltage to the latch) or can be bypassed physically (pulled up to Vcc).
In this case, an unlocked boot loader would not be able to bypass the blown fuse link. It may, however, be able to forgo checking the status of the efuse, but I really don't know know how its all assembled, since getting a datasheet on the board from samsung would be impossible. The only hope I have as an engineer is to examine the board and attempt to find the location of the fuse.
Here is some efuse Education:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
You may want to read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2561658
So it seems as if there is some misinformation running around on all ends. Seems logical to me to go with the Samsung knox website, where they say that hardware warranty is separate from knox warranty.
I'm going to email samsung and try to get a straight answer. I'll setup a claim for my device. I'll say it has a bad home button or something silly, then mention the knox bit is tripped. The 2 are totally unrelated, so seems like a good test.
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Serinety said:
So it seems as if there is some misinformation running around on all ends. Seems logical to me to go with the Samsung knox website, where they say that hardware warranty is separate from knox warranty.
I'm going to email samsung and try to get a straight answer. I'll setup a claim for my device. I'll say it has a bad home button or something silly, then mention the knox bit is tripped. The 2 are totally unrelated, so seems like a good test.
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Should be intesting to follow. Looking forward to see what happens.
An efuse is not like a standard circuit breaker at all. It is like a regular fuse. Circuit breakers are designed to be reset. They are not permanently physically modified in any way when tripped. Efuses and fuses, on the other hand, are physically burned when they are tripped, and cannot be reverted.
As far as being on a separate chip: I highly doubt this to be the case. First, to minimize power consumption no one wants to drive an extra package. Second, virtually all SoC designs incorporate an efuse bank somewhere on their chip. Though I could be wrong on this point, as there could be incentive to include them off-SoC if device remanufacturing (read: refurbishing) is a significant source of revenue for the OEM.
Source: I am a SoC design engineer for an industry outside the mobile personal electronics sector, and they are pretty much commonplace in every SoC made in at least the last 5+ years.
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flinttownbrown said:
An efuse is not like a standard circuit breaker at all. It is like a regular fuse. Circuit breakers are designed to be reset. They are not permanently physically modified in any way when tripped. Efuses and fuses, on the other hand, are physically burned when they are tripped, and cannot be reverted.
As far as being on a separate chip: I highly doubt this to be the case. First, to minimize power consumption no one wants to drive an extra package. Second, virtually all SoC designs incorporate an efuse bank somewhere on their chip. Though I could be wrong on this point, as there could be incentive to include them off-SoC if device remanufacturing (read: refurbishing) is a significant source of revenue for the OEM.
Source: I am a SoC design engineer for an industry outside the mobile personal electronics sector, and they are pretty much commonplace in every SoC made in at least the last 5+ years.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium HD app
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Click to collapse
Your right, but my assumption is that they are not using SoC efuse's. If this were the case, they would be forced to toss boards with blown fuses. Since their goal with the efuse is not to prevent damage, but to indicate intrusuon, a way to "reset" the fuse would seem preferable.
We use several efuse's that are circuit breaker style, and not fuse.
http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/content.do?id=17031
Just one several. These can be added to any design for protection, but could also be used in this application. Once tripped they would stay tripped until reset. If the reset pin is left unused, then it can only be reset exrernally, which I suspect is the case.
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I actually contacted Samsung Canada to know if tripping Knox voids hardware warranty. This is the response I got:
Dear XXXXXX,
Thank you for contacting Samsung Customer Care.
After going through the email, we understand that you want to know if rooting voids the warranty.
I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.
I need to inform you, rooting of device will void standard manufacture's warranty.
Click on the below weblink for details about Samsung products warranty info :
http://bit.ly/1d1MfW4
For details about Knox, please contact our dedicated support for Knox at +1 855 567 5669 for further assistance.
We hope we’ve answered your inquiry. Please let us know if there are any additional questions or concerns.
You can also visit our How To & FAQ >section on the website for more product information.
We deeply value your loyalty to Samsung and are committed to provide you with the highest level of customer
service. If for any reason theinformation we provided did not resolve your issue, we have various
contact channels that are available to assist in resolving your concern
For immediate assistance with a live agent, you can chat with us here
For support by phone, you can reach us at 1-800-SAMSUNG(726-7864)
Samsung’s Social Media Team is available to assist with providing up-to-date information or answering questions.
Visit us on Facebook
Visit us on Twitter
Thank you for being a Samsung Customer!
Kind Regards,
Sandy
Samsung Customer Care
http://www.samsung.com/ca
Our goal is to provide our customers with the best customer service possible. Please complete the following customer service survey based on customer experience with your agent.
Your feedback will enable us to see how we're doing overall and find out how we can improve.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doesn't really seem like they understood the question, but whatever. Guess I'll avoid rooting until someone figures out a 0x0 method, if at all. Its weird because people in the S4 forum asked the same thing about Knox and warranty and Samsung's response was that the phone should still retain hardware warranty.
i just wanted to note that samsung will still cover hardware defects if you use knox.
smac7 said:
i just wanted to note that samsung will still cover hardware defects if you use knox.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source of your sentence?
It depends on which defects they are... and the proof that the issue is related to factory defects is on your charge...
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francanna said:
Source of your sentence?
It depends on which defects they are... and the proof that the issue is related to factory defects is on your charge...
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
transcript from my conversation.
General Info
Chat start time Oct 9, 2013 6:59:14 PM EST
Chat end time Oct 9, 2013 7:10:06 PM EST
Duration (actual chatting time) 00:10:51
Operator Vivian C
Chat Transcript
info: Please wait for a Samsung Agent to respond.
info: All Samsung Agents are currently assisting others. Thanks for your patience. A Samsung Agent will be with you shortly.
info: You are now chatting with 'Vivian C'. There will be a brief survey at the end of our chat to share feedback on my performance today.
info: Your Issue ID for this chat is LTK111790932073X
Vivian C: Hi, thank you for reaching out to Samsung technical support. How may I assist you?
shane: Hi.
shane: i have a question in regards to warrenty on the new galaxy note 10.1
Vivian C: Hi, please go ahead with the query?
shane: I understand that rooting will void the warranty for software issues and anything related to rooting, but does it also void it for issues such as a broken power button or a physical problem with the screen.
shane: Basically, are hardware issues unrelated to root still covered?
Vivian C: Yes, they are covered but no physical damages to the unit.
Vivian C: I can understand how important this is to you.
shane: so you mean as long as it doesn't appear to be the consumers fault (drops for example) then its fine?
Vivian C: I could certainly relate to what you are going through as I am a consumer myself.
Vivian C: The hardware issues are covered if it is under warranty.
shane: ok thank you for the info. that's all i wanted to know before i went through with my purchase
Vivian C: I appreciate the patience you displayed while we worked together on this issue.
Vivian C: Thank you for chatting with us. If you have a minute, please click on the blue “X close” button to receive the transcript of your chat and fill out a brief survey to help us serve you better.
Follow Samsung Service on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.
smac7 said:
transcript from my conversation.
General Info
Chat start time Oct 9, 2013 6:59:14 PM EST
Chat end time Oct 9, 2013 7:10:06 PM EST
Duration (actual chatting time) 00:10:51
Operator Vivian C
Chat Transcript
info: Please wait for a Samsung Agent to respond.
info: All Samsung Agents are currently assisting others. Thanks for your patience. A Samsung Agent will be with you shortly.
info: You are now chatting with 'Vivian C'. There will be a brief survey at the end of our chat to share feedback on my performance today.
info: Your Issue ID for this chat is LTK111790932073X
Vivian C: Hi, thank you for reaching out to Samsung technical support. How may I assist you?
shane: Hi.
shane: i have a question in regards to warrenty on the new galaxy note 10.1
Vivian C: Hi, please go ahead with the query?
shane: I understand that rooting will void the warranty for software issues and anything related to rooting, but does it also void it for issues such as a broken power button or a physical problem with the screen.
shane: Basically, are hardware issues unrelated to root still covered?
Vivian C: Yes, they are covered but no physical damages to the unit.
Vivian C: I can understand how important this is to you.
shane: so you mean as long as it doesn't appear to be the consumers fault (drops for example) then its fine?
Vivian C: I could certainly relate to what you are going through as I am a consumer myself.
Vivian C: The hardware issues are covered if it is under warranty.
shane: ok thank you for the info. that's all i wanted to know before i went through with my purchase
Vivian C: I appreciate the patience you displayed while we worked together on this issue.
Vivian C: Thank you for chatting with us. If you have a minute, please click on the blue “X close” button to receive the transcript of your chat and fill out a brief survey to help us serve you better.
Follow Samsung Service on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's all and nothing. Samsung VP told in knox website that warranty policies may be different country by country. In general it is true what I said before. You are supposed to prove that the defect is non software related. E.G. zif your screen stops working or you experience motherboard issues, Samsung may say it depends on overclock or other root related stuff.
So what remains you is just power button failure...
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^ Nice, I should follow up with Samsung Canada through live chat because at the very least this gives me a bit more confidence to root without having any hardware warranty concerns. However I wonder if they can still refuse warranty "just because" even though it may have been confirmed by their online agents.
I am left wondering how the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, and all the case law that led to it's enactment, would relate to Samsung's apparent unwillingness to honor a warranty claim related to hardware issues on a rooted (modified) device when Samsung is unable to show that the rooting of the device was the direct cause of the hardware failure.
I think it is time that a group of consumers tripped the Knox counter on their devices by rooting, and sent them in to Samsung for a hardware related repair such as a bad home button or a screen failure and then see if Samsung will honor the warranty or deny the claim solely based on said tripped Knox counter.
If Samsung denies the claim without showing just cause, the group could then show harm and either file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (here in the US) or they could file a class action law suit against Samsung if they could find an attorney(s) stupid enough to do it.
There is nothing in the Samsung Terms of Service that precludes class actions as AT&T does.
JACK4HIRE said:
I am left wondering how the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, and all the case law that led to it's enactment, would relate to Samsung's apparent unwillingness to honor a warranty claim related to hardware issues on a rooted (modified) device when Samsung is unable to show that the rooting of the device was the direct cause of the hardware failure.
I think it is time that a group of consumers tripped the Knox counter on their devices by rooting, and sent them in to Samsung for a hardware related repair such as a bad home button or a screen failure and then see if Samsung will honor the warranty or deny the claim solely based on said tripped Knox counter.
If Samsung denies the claim without showing just cause, the group could then show harm and either file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (here in the US) or they could file a class action law suit against Samsung if they could find an attorney(s) stupid enough to do it.
There is nothing in the Samsung Terms of Service that precludes class actions as AT&T does.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People, it will be exactely as it has been so far: do you remember that Samsung has put a modified device counter in its device for years? What happens to you warranty today if you root a Galaxy S2 and do not use CF Triangle Away?
Some hardware issues have been passed under warranty, some others not.
Some display failures may depend on kernel settings; motherboard issues may depend on voltage and frequencies that are kernel related. Be sure this will not covered.
Hardware buttons are not sw related and will be repaired.
But who wants to keep a warranty limited to 3 hw buttons?
francanna said:
People, it will be exactely as it has been so far: do you remember that Samsung has put a modified device counter in its device for years? What happens to you warranty today if you root a Galaxy S2 and do not use CF Triangle Away?
Some hardware issues have been passed under warranty, some others not.
Some display failures may depend on kernel settings; motherboard issues may depend on voltage and frequencies that are kernel related. Be sure this will not covered.
Hardware buttons are not sw related and will be repaired.
But who wants to keep a warranty limited to 3 hw buttons?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Given that we do not have custom kernels, all root has given us is apps like titanium, and other root style apps. We can't modify any voltage settings, or anything that could damage the device. Need a kernel for that.
The only thing you could do right now is flash bad firmware, and brick. But that's possible with or with out root. Any time you flash firmware there is a possibility of bricking. Seems illogical that just because I can use titanium backup and xposed, means a failed update from mk1 to ml1 would be the fault of root. They are not even related. That's like saying installing a new stereo in my car caused the engine to blow a headgasket.
Remember, root only affects the running and booted operating system. Once you are in recovery, or download mode.. root has nothing to do with it. just like in windows. When you install a windows program, if you shutdown and boot to bios.. that program doesn't exist as far as the computer is concerned. Only after it has booted the main hard drive and read the proper master boot record, and loads windows does that program exist.
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Serinety said:
Given that we do not have custom kernels, all root has given us is apps like titanium, and other root style apps. We can't modify any voltage settings, or anything that could damage the device. Need a kernel for that.
The only thing you could do right now is flash bad firmware, and brick. But that's possible with or with out root. Any time you flash firmware there is a possibility of bricking. Seems illogical that just because I can use titanium backup and xposed, means a failed update from mk1 to ml1 would be the fault of root. They are not even related. That's like saying installing a new stereo in my car caused the engine to blow a headgasket.
Remember, root only affects the running and booted operating system. Once you are in recovery, or download mode.. root has nothing to do with it. just like in windows. When you install a windows program, if you shutdown and boot to bios.. that program doesn't exist as far as the computer is concerned. Only after it has booted the main hard drive and read the proper master boot record, and loads windows does that program exist.
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are right, BUT...
Today we have no custom kernel on Note 2014, but as soon as Samsung releases the source code we will have. For Note 3 custom kernels do exist.
So, generally speaking, I may root the phone, flash a custom kernel and, in case of disaster, restore stock kernel.
That is why even a simple root is considered non samsung system modification... and Knox activates the efuse in case of any non samsung system modification because it needs the system to be perfectly integer and Samsung certified for business reasons (BYOD strategies).
Finally: no root means no kernel no rom... no problem for Samsung.
I am not justifying Samsung. Only trying to explain their logic.
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francanna said:
You are right, BUT...
Today we have no custom kernel on Note 2014, but as soon as Samsung releases the source code we will have. For Note 3 custom kernels do exist.
So, generally speaking, I may root the phone, flash a custom kernel and, in case of disaster, restore stock kernel.
That is why even a simple root is considered non samsung system modification... and Knox activates the efuse in case of any non samsung system modification because it needs the system to be perfectly integer and Samsung certified for business reasons (BYOD strategies).
Finally: no root means no kernel no rom... no problem for Samsung.
I am not justifying Samsung. Only trying to explain their logic.
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Click to collapse
True, although they should make a business version and a consumer version. But......like THAT would ever happen lol. Seems silly to force business solutions onto a consumer, non business customer experience. I assume samsung is going to be pushing knox into all their new devices.. which kinda blows the whole "for business" slogan of knox. I have to think , not many samsung smartphone/tablets are used in a Purley business application.
Ahh...such is life. If they can make it, we can break it....
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Serinety said:
True, although they should make a business version and a consumer version. But......like THAT would ever happen lol. Seems silly to force business solutions onto a consumer, non business customer experience. I assume samsung is going to be pushing knox into all their new devices.. which kinda blows the whole "for business" slogan of knox. I have to think , not many samsung smartphone/tablets are used in a Purley business application.
Ahh...such is life. If they can make it, we can break it....
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As you know Blackberry is almost out of the market and Windows Phone has not such a great appeal. That is a huge oppotunity for Samsung, but they have to face Android bad reputation as an "unsecure" system.
That is the main reason for Knox.
"Security" and "data integrity" are marketing messages they decided to spend also in consumer market... although we know that most of people would not need neither use Knox.
Moreover Samsung well knows that modders are only a very small part of the consumer universe. Although Samsung NEEDS modder's community.
My note: IMHO Android security problems are NOT directly related to rooting... on the contrary, rooting (URDLV, for example) would use system exploits... but it is true that having a rooted device increases the possibilities of possible security issues for un-aware people.
People still think that rooting is required for having "cracked applications" and things link that.